238 entries in 0.221s
mircea_popescu: then the bootstrapping problem. "suppose you let the wot work it, make trilema be
gossipd, people can see the comments of people they talk to"
mircea_popescu: so yeah. weird baked in. (
gossipd, obviously, will not have the problem, everyone'll hear "here's what you allededly said" from multiple sources)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yeah, though "more reaearch needed", seems direct stepping stone to
gossipd after all.
mircea_popescu: (one perfectly legitimate way to build-towards-
gossipd is to make the following item standard : every bot, upon receiving some registration order from anyone in owner's wot, will then respond to "any messages for me ?" with a "since yo ulast asked, here's all the loglines i have seen which highlighted your name".
mircea_popescu: the very deliberate, and very plain
gossipd-philosophy roots of logotrons are indeed not to be forgotten, either.
mircea_popescu: ie, is it fine to say "you wanna chat, use
gossipd ; you wanna program, use emacs" ?
mircea_popescu: trinque, the whole fucking idea is to replace it once and good, with
gossipd.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: zx2c4, yeah. have you seen anything re
gossipd, ~speaking the tmsr-wireguard ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean
gossipd ? how can it possibly displace something that doesn't even exist!
mircea_popescu: the merger into
gossipd and eulora later on -- obviously open avenue.
mircea_popescu: this is a sort of
gossipd-meets-the original "can't have signature repudiation" problem you encountered in comments there, but REVERSED.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure i want
gossipd lines to be longer than irc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unless the fucking fp can fit in irc, we're stuck building
gossipd before using this "Actual thing"
mircea_popescu: so i always imagined that to plug web ie blogs such as trilema into
gossipd, what'd happen would be that i'd announce what the article is and what the comments were.
mircea_popescu: the reason i didn't start the
gossipd discussion with trilema specifically has to do with the comments problem. which is : there's some implicit authority-and-authorship play wrt comments, as reader is more interested in mp's idea of what comments were than in random spew, and by a large factor.
mircea_popescu: so then why not simply pipe the current apache or w/e into
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: shit's in
gossipd design papers too, and really everywhere.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701966 << more importantly, and more subtly, it sells you on the notion that "dh is a prerequisite for handshakes", which happens to be false. for one thing, you can shake a friend's hand without the usg being involved. for another,
gossipd does not use dh for handshake. in short, the usgtardian nonsense is always there to distract you while it implants simpler points deep into the reptile b
☝︎ mircea_popescu: and trinque was about to release a payments thing for deedbot by ... end of july yo! and then there's the ffa growing towards a proper tmsr-rsa, and of course the
gossipd sandbox, and a coupla yet sikrit items and so on
mircea_popescu: but yes, for unrelated reasons fixed size is the right choice for
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was discussing a more general rsa scheme, not
gossipd specifically.
mircea_popescu: this scheme is both slow and bulky. it is not likely useful for
gossipd-style comms. it is certainly valuable for signing material, especially because rsa signature is much more padding-vulnerable than encryption ; and perhaps for some limited encryption work.
mircea_popescu: ime, but the only guarantee the design provides is that it will die out EVENTUALLY. for all you know it can survive years through sheer chance. so weak keys are a very serious potential problem for
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: what, that they happened over freenode rather than over
gossipd ? that the latter is "not properly uci" ?
mircea_popescu: back to the topic : the idea is to have properly arranged owned boxes. this will include
gossipd as a basis, uci on top of that if the OWNer opts to, bitcoind on top of that likely, a devenv, whatever.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would it be "mirceapopescu os" ? it's just a sane os. he can say hi in
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: suppose you have nodes A, B behind a nat. suppose A and B run
gossipd, and have been introduced to C. A aiming to connect to B or vice-versa for any reason is accomplished through : A asks C for an ip for B. C provides A with ip for B and B with notification of A's request (at the least, its ip).
mircea_popescu: but whosoever does connect, puts in tmsr, ie,
gossipd + uci whatever.
mircea_popescu: making everything depend on
gossipd present and running is the right thing anyway.
mircea_popescu: basically the operating system of the republic will be
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's the thing : we don't actually have the problem of nat traversal. in the following sense :
gossipd is not intended to work without introduction. as part of the introduction, the introducer server can provide ips. those can then be used for everything, bitcoind, you name it.
mircea_popescu: sina's actually working on something closer to your original idea,
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: so more like all-exposed-functionality) -> ((
gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the
gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum positive "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you are running a computer. (not crap, an actual tmsr is happy with machine). when i start mine up, i want to get some bits from you. maybe it's "what sina said about mp on
gossipd". maybe it's "the nth block in the current blockchain". maybe it's whatever it is. how does it do this ?
mircea_popescu: bitcoin+
gossipd+uci -> pretty much time to say goodnight.
mircea_popescu: obviously not. just, you realise, it's a republican artefact, "1st pcap of an early
gossipd attempt"
mircea_popescu: notice how it's not even POSSIBLE for the "same" message to be delivered via
gossipd. for purely quantic reasons.
mircea_popescu: there's no peer discovery as a
gossipd function ; at all times it knows already all the peers it will ever know. in lawyer speak this is called "never ask a question you don't know the answer to."
☟︎ mircea_popescu:
gossipd should hot be able to discover peers. (if you think about it, the ability to discover peers is another way to say "leaking data").
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674379 << introductions aren't intended to be handled by
gossipd. the correct way to do this is for me to say "add 8A56264EAD0BC4BD9CD7AC0086B488AB sina" which is a legitimate pubkey of your
gossipd, AND for you to go whatever re mine. then they can talk, change keys etc. not before./
☝︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: thyis is a fractally repeating point : the reason "social learning" as modelled by redditards doesn't work irl is the indirection layer. the reason
gossipd is undefeatable in practice is... the indirection layer.
mircea_popescu: review the
gossipd discussions, they're instructive on the topic.
mircea_popescu: well, as conclusive as it gets. see the
gossipd design document comment section.
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear to me how such a thing is an improvement over "just run your current trb through the future
gossipd"
mircea_popescu: we'll have to have a
gossipd sooner rather than later.
mircea_popescu: and you also don't "must have signed
gossipd lines", either. there was a mega discussion re that also on
gossipd thread
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it's quite unclear to me that
gossipd need be related to this other thing
mircea_popescu: my mind's eye foresees a time when all comms will consist of this.
gossipd over irc!
mircea_popescu: feel free to query it over
gossipd, or over whatever else.
mircea_popescu: (note that they quite exactly identify the exact reason
gossipd makes empire impossible : "In the case of a public communications system this condition of a common symbol set with a common semantic interpretation must be further strengthened to that of a unique symbol set with a unique semantic interpretation. This condition of uniqueness allows any party to initiate a communication that can be received and understood by any
mircea_popescu: Framedragger yes, but communicatin by sending pgpgrams is already a simplified
gossipd is the point.
mircea_popescu: at first,
gossipd replaces the current "talk to servers to admin your strings" which happens, essentially, over substitute-email and
http-sessions. mircea_popescu: there is EXACTLY ONE solution to "zooko's triangle" - and it is called
gossipd. it works by crushing the socialist mind and its foul expectation of "any person is any person". not fucking so.
mircea_popescu: and in these terms, a very simple explanation of why the republic is indefeatable is very simply forthcoming : given two users a and b who, through division of labour, have expertise in fields f1 and f2, the empire path for a to access f2 or for b to access f1 is to take some money all the way from -3 to 3 TWICE. whereas the republican model simply has a talk to b, on the mediation of a
gossipd/wot
mircea_popescu: certainly the discussion of
gossipd needs some updating.
mircea_popescu: emacs frozen as part of
gossipd, other implementations allowed at user's discretion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well with any luck tmsr fork of emacs will be part of
gossipd anyways.
mircea_popescu: i jus' did, and best i can see it is sufficient, and how we'll do stuff like rsa encryption/decryption over uci once
gossipd is here.
mircea_popescu: trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the
gossipd spec.
mircea_popescu: in other words : paillier in UCI over
gossipd seems capable of bignum.
mircea_popescu: anyway. should be fun to see how this plays out once
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: the correct pill to all of this being, of course,
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: ah also : re "encryption" : we CAN use the eliza involved in
gossipd spec (anyone actually did this or just some quick napkin work and then forgot about ?) to eliza the actual emissions.
mircea_popescu: you notice
gossipd as specified is not related to implementation yes ?
mircea_popescu: you realise that the
gossipd model with markov chains is probably the one source of the singularity
mircea_popescu: yeah, by now it's becoming evident that
gossipd is to be delivered with a config file and a VERY LONG helpfile.
mircea_popescu: trinque asciilifeform & everyone : without detracting from the more important
gossipd spec work, im thinking of making a bot spec. it'd require bots to answer in pm to help, help json and help sexpr. comments/ideas ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and coupled with
gossipd, it becomes impossible to establish "whose chopper this is". owner reports his choppers stolen, good luck "enforcing".