trinque: I'm thinking I can probably shave a meg or two, conservatively. current script naively snarfs whole ebuild dir, and not just the particular version of ebuild used
trinque: idea is v-portage becomes the primary portage repository for the system. ebuild porter can bolt in gentoo's portage as an overlay, should be very easy
trinque: aha, cribbing from the wise
trinque: same sort of "found item" here, warts and all
mod6: trinque: very cool!
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 01:32 asciilifeform: phf: speaking of which, consider the easiest winner , if the anti-patch condition is absent -- a google shitmonkey who knows the hole already and 'wins' on the monday right prior to patch tuesday.
mod6: how goes? I need some of that gutrot coffee.
mod6: haha, ok. i hear ya on that part.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform regexp and sigverification, what would be a better mix.
mircea_popescu: "extension scripts", fancy that wonder. koch put ethereum in gpg before ethereum was even "a thing"
mircea_popescu: (of course, it was always "a thing" for the confederacy of dunces)
mircea_popescu: once they bite the "features" apple, they're lost for humanity.
mircea_popescu: anyway, to continue the mystery from yesterday (
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-18#1826427 ), here's phase 2 : "Vi dichiaro che prenderò tutte le misure necessarie per tutelare i galantuomini dai delitti dei criminali. Non deve essere più tollerato che poche centinaia di malviventi soverchino, immiseriscano, danneggino una popolazione magnifica come la vostra." (il derpo @ agrigento).
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-06-18 16:19 mircea_popescu: here's a riddle for the student of history :
mircea_popescu: now : this fellow understands that the only legitimate reason for having a state in the first place is to protect the priviledge of some against the intolerable pressure of the many.
mircea_popescu: and he understands that police is either there to keep the niggers in line, in which case it is a legitimate organ of the state, or fails in this its only duty, in which case both it and the criminal gang backing it are strictly abominable.
mircea_popescu: this much, he gets, on his own power. and then, on the same "own power" that got this far, turns around and picks... THE WRONG GROUPS.
mircea_popescu: and yes, "i'll take all measures to protect the lordship from criminals". doh. but then "criminals = the cool people ; the lordship = the baaaaaaa crowd" ?! what the fuck is broken in these brains, that they manage to evaluate 1=1 as true but then 1+1=1+1 comes out false ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't help it, i'm psychologically threatened by ~partially working~ machinery. how the fuck does it juice apples but not oranges, this juicer ?
mircea_popescu: this is meaningless in the us, everyone there's an iliterate loser.
mircea_popescu: see, italy in the 30s ACTUALLY HAD people in it. us ~never had, as best as can be discerned, samuel clemens marks down the one or two he found in a 3k mile trip as extreme rarities, in the 1800s.
mircea_popescu: (not that i'm proposing the "actually had" people in it had any fucking sense. that they didn't shoot mora the day of his "appointment" speaks volumes to the sort of retarded goatfuckers we're dealing with here.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is not true, however. he had an !!up, from cuccia, as discussed yest. and they knew "who he is", so that wasn't the impediment either.
mircea_popescu: he understands what the state is, and for. he understands how the police works, and why. he however thinks going with the plebs in eritrea is a working plan. how the fuck!
mircea_popescu: on the contrary : lenin ignored systematically largest mass of unwashed, stuck strictly with the cool people he could encounter.
mircea_popescu: this is the deep dispute between trotsky and stalin : the former tried to continue lenin in this exact manner, and it didn't work out for him.
mircea_popescu: of course, by then the context had drastically changed, and stalin got a lot of mileage out of "trotsky wants to sell country"
a111: Logged on 2018-05-08 18:38 mircea_popescu: and in today's dollop of hysterical lulz :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin manages to go through 10k words without even mentioning the nevzorov sisters, coincidentally the reason the fuckbuddy of some old imperial chick even got to be stalin's successor.
mircea_popescu: so they end up with "but of course inca". sure... except not irl.
mircea_popescu: ("the solution is, don't pay them in money, they want to be paid in lottery tickets")
mircea_popescu: to mussolini's mind, the strange movements of halves of airplanes overhead seemed to promise ~more future~ than the predictable movements of the southern iron guard. germany HAY MAS FUTURO!!11
mircea_popescu: then he proceeded to "reconstruct" ye olde praetorian guard out of the pressed shitboard of youths from the periphery of rome.
mircea_popescu: it was a very strict "first come first serve", and the germans came first.
mircea_popescu: someone was going to work ploiesti ; at the times discussed above (1920s) it was standard oil and some british speculators.
mircea_popescu: note that "re-taking romania" figured up there in the plans of hitler in his last fucking week
mircea_popescu: exactly. he said as much, repeatedly, and was plainly correct, which is why army followed.
mircea_popescu: the much-celebrated-by-axehandles, today as in the radio free europe days "historical parties" cocksuckers kept sending letters "pointing out the problems", in the jewfuriating way they go about this, like idiot 15yos going "but dad, if house is foreclosed we'll lose out on our investment in carpeting" sorta bs.
mircea_popescu: but they plainly knew they're being facetious cocksuckers.
mircea_popescu: the universal oppinion of romanian officer corps, which, in romania, a country very german, were more than a third of the whole shebang, was that russians are literally worse than dogs.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the common expression in bucharst was "muscali cu coada", ie, "muscovites with tails", becauyse unlike humans, they still had tails.
mircea_popescu: this all stemmed from their behaviour in ww2, when they abandoned the front.
mircea_popescu: this, in the 1910s, was simply not done. and they shot them like dogs, throughout the 1916s.
mircea_popescu: hey, the germans want to, who the fuck cares. we go and raze moscow, fujck them and may the word never be heard again.
mircea_popescu: romanian army was more than willing to exterminate all slavs, period and full stop.
mircea_popescu: "next fucking time we have a deal, you cover the fucking front, cocksuckers"
mircea_popescu: no, they just disliked the continued existence of russophones.
mircea_popescu: that was one thing ; the other thing was that russia annoyed the shit out of romania by taking some small and inconsequential parcels of land that stephen managed to beat the turks out of repeatedly, a few centuries prior.
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, was one of the dumbest moves known to european politics.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, bits and pieces of what became the ukraine.
mircea_popescu: anyway, nobody actually wanted that land qua land, nor was it even fucking useful. but, idiots.
jurov: !!invoice ben_vulpes 0.40847278 "wire to the Pizarro DC sent 2018-06-12"
mircea_popescu: now, among the minor factors -- romania, at the time a major european actor economically, stored its treasury in moscow before ww1. and well... it was lost.
jurov: !!v 7077C4293B97125785216EDD1DC83D604155C99A698AB4EF9FFE405AFF1E64DC
mircea_popescu: (which it genuinely was, if anyone knows what the fuck chaos revolutionary years were, it;s a wonder somebody didn't steal the hermitage buildings altogether)
deedbot: Invoiced ben_vulpes 0.40847278 << "wire to the Pizarro DC sent 2018-06-12"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and we can keep going, but you get the idea. russians had managed to make themselves as impopular as humanly possible with the ~only martial neighbour it had at the time.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: this all stemmed from their behaviour in ww2, << evidently, i mean ww1.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, i am actually willing to go on the record saying that had the russians either a) retreated more intelligently post revolution, which wasn't entirely unsupported or unsimpathized in romania or b) stayed the fuck out of land they, like anyone else, ultiately DIDNT EVEN WANT jesus christ,
mircea_popescu: the massacre of leningrad'd have been entirely avoided.
mircea_popescu: it's a fine example of "we promoted condolezza the nigger, and now we're fucked".
mircea_popescu: all it took was retreating over a year, rather than over three weeks.
mircea_popescu: i am satisfied, for my own needs, that the "rulers" involved had no fucking idea what'ds going on, quite literally.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 16:04 mircea_popescu: and we can keep going, but you get the idea. russians had managed to make themselves as impopular as humanly possible with the ~only martial neighbour it had at the time.
mircea_popescu: right ; and notice how it worked out the exact same fucking way, poles were out for blood.
mircea_popescu: i thought received wisdom is "buffer state with prussia"
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Oh we lulled about that in May
mircea_popescu: why else even have the whole "child pornography" thing.
mircea_popescu: "these magical bits were found on '''your''' computer, and as we all know NOBUS coulda put 'em there"
mircea_popescu: if i everyone wasn't such a fucking retard, we'd have a lawyer joined up by now, and i could sponsor his clerical costs to send amici briefs to each and every single case involving "digital evidence" arguing it's a govt plant.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-08 01:43 douchebag: If I need to print off these flier, if I include the reciept of the printed fliers will you remburse them ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, this was a major lulz in "western europe" cca 1980s, when all sorts of bums and other vagrants in advanced states of dishevelement showerd up. "we escaped COMMUNIST HELL!!!!" "really ? how come everyone likes it there ?" "no they hate it there!!! everyone hatges it!!!" "Really ?!"
mircea_popescu: amusingly, re "inca official", thios is not so. about 2/3 of the nominally qualified pay the "education" tax but have no income to show for it.
douchebag: In regards to hanbot and mircea_popescu negrating me, I did read the logs and wanted clarification about the discussions that took place which lead to mircea_popescu negrating me.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: -3 by 5 connections.
douchebag: I just wanted clarification about the discussions that had taken place, that is all.
douchebag: I'm looking through the logs right now to find exactly what was unclear to me.
douchebag: In regards to your last question, I'm willing to work - however, I'm not going to spend my time working without any sort of compensation.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-17 16:32 mircea_popescu: !!rate douchebag -1 as it turns out, the more elaborate effort one puts into distinguishing gold from sand, the more elaborately sandy sand the one ends up with. gold is irrespectively evident on the first pass.
mircea_popescu: everyone had an ok time after depopulation event, most recently ww2,
mircea_popescu: this is not related to profession, it's a demographic pressure thing.
mircea_popescu: mexicans are having an ok time with the progressive moving of erstwhile us inhabitants into their dreamer tanks.
douchebag: I offered to work for free with the promise of payment of the job successfully completed.
mircea_popescu: douchebag looky, the place's not for you. you're not smart enough to be here. what's so hard to grok about this ? some people are smart, some people aren't smart, you're not smart. what, you have to be dragged out, your legs don't work, what is it ?
☟︎☟︎☟︎ a111: 2018-01-11 <douchebag> douchebag
phf: asciilifeform: you'd be amused by the latest emacs release, "Limited form of concurrency with Lisp threads" "Emacs now uses double buffering to reduce flicker on the X Window System" "Flymake has been completely redesigned" "TRAMP has a new connection method for Google Drive" "A systemd user unit file is provided". it's almost like a self-parody
mircea_popescu: because i kept going from double take to double take, "seriously, someone uses google drive ?!" then "wait, system what ?!"
douchebag: mircea_popescu: What makes someone smart enough to be here exactly then?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the thing's dead, what. this is the direct equivalent of arab kid scratching ins'allah on inside of pharoh tomb.
douchebag: I'm more than capable of programming/building/writing/ect...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform phf in any case it's high time emacs is either dropped or published.
douchebag: The problem is, I have a lot of things going on in my life and I need a source of income. I don't have time to work on projects right now without ending up homeless.
mircea_popescu: and phf is quite ripe for a major signature project like that ; eulora dun seem to interest him, so...
douchebag: asciilifeform: I barely have any free time to do anything because of my job.
hanbot: lol that escalated quickly
ben_vulpes: douchebag: i thought handing vulns over to sv corp responsible dicksucksure departments was a sure path to riches
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:02 mircea_popescu: well... how would you feel about forking emacs, phf ?
douchebag: However, I still want a garunteed source of income
douchebag: in the event I don't find any vulnerabilities that week
hanbot: mircea_popescu highlight is specifically for visibility in a swamp neh
trinque: asciilifeform: isn't one, can sit in the next vpatch
trinque: mircea_popescu: I do indeed
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm thinking, i'm not opposed to the idea, but i was also the person saying in logs that emacs is harmful and should be abandoned altogether. i can bring together whatever's asciilifeform and trinque are using for their workshops, and adopt it for myself also..
trinque: with pile of homespun elisp
mircea_popescu: phf we will have to somehow resolve this issue, because neither of the current outcomes is seemly. having republicans use the google drive systemd website thing is idiotic ; taking people's shit is idiotic. wut do.
mircea_popescu: phf explain it to me again, why should it be abandoned ?
mircea_popescu: (me used and abandoned in less than a year decade+ ago, so...)
phf: my personal objection to it is that it's a time sink, it's easy and satisfying to customize, but it never quite gets to being a complete solution without major work put into it (ala lucene)
phf: it's my personal problem
mircea_popescu: consider -- if we agreed as indeed we seem to have that scripting language (eg, for eventual webatron, and for everything else) should be lisp dialect,
mircea_popescu: elisp may actually be very much worth explicitly studying ?
mircea_popescu: ie it seems to me the ~attempt~, whether it should succeed or fail, will be productive nevertheless.
phf: that's very true, elisp is not particularly bad as a scripting language. with some effort can be stripped of extra baggage
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you idiots being what you are i can't discern if it's "backwards pistol is every grenadier's problem because it fires backwards" or "bayonett is every recruit's problem b ecause attempts to sit on it".
mircea_popescu: emacs has been around for 500 years and NOT A SINGLE COGENT DISCUSSION of this matter is to be found anywhere.
mircea_popescu: i was counting the "experts" outside of here. those things that exist, you know.
mircea_popescu: can you answer this ? is the "emacs is fun to customize, and comes with guarantee that it will solve any x hour problem in x * 1.17 ^ your age hours" ?
trinque lives in the thing as window manager even
phf: trinque: which version was your original baseline by the way?
trinque: didn't take that long to get to the point where I can throw tiled window arrangements on screen with a few keyboard twitches
trinque: iirc I ran 24 for a while, am on 25 atm, but am not vouching for that version.
mircea_popescu: trinque so are you basically taking the stand where you swear that emacs is actually productive, in the sense of taking less time to customize for and solve new problem than trivial approach, and therefore it's the incorect habits of the common user rather than the harmful structure of emacs that's to blame ?
mircea_popescu: because this is a major, no, strike that, this is THE major fucking decision here.
trinque: I don't venture too far down the tree of possible customizations beyond assemble workbench, make tools readytohand, start working
trinque: I would stand by the claim that emacs *can* be a time-sink, just as moving your desk around the office each day can, but it doesn't have to be, and isn't inherent in the tool
mircea_popescu: because yes, the exact sort of objection (we're only counting the cogent ones, washed out of 10bn words of idiocy outside the gates) brought against emacs can (and was) brought against desk by orcs. "o, by the time you're done moving it around the meadow the boar long left" "what boar ?" "the one you were going to shoot inkwell at, silly." "oh i c"
phf: well if we're talking about moving your desk around the office, then emacs is kind of tool that comes with various desk parts, and you can attach them together, but one of the legs is going to be short, so you spend some time replacing the desk leg, etc. etc.
jurov: pls don't ask me anything about emacs. i use (neo)vim. tried several times to use emacs and gave up in anger - for example, there isn't even universal keystroke to change between windows/close a window.
mircea_popescu: phf can you reduce this short leg metaphore to a strict example ?
trinque: can't really judge the thing on keybindings. they're right there to change
jurov: trinque there was always some mode or context or something where it did not work
mircea_popescu: dawgs, the question was as to usercount. he answered, that he dun use it. what moar.
trinque: eh, sometimes you q, sometimes c-g, other times ..., I get it
phf: mircea_popescu: my short log metaphor example would've been the key bindings. there are conventions, they are not always followed, and often they have to be recustomized on a per-mode basis, or else you just memorize the abysmal defaults and stick to them.
mircea_popescu: phf yes; but amusingly asciilifeform doesn't admit this. somehow.
phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa
☟︎ phf: l, sometime around 24, for newline to now mean newline and indent, ... in most modes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that when jurov pointed it out, you jumped. why ? if you know this is so, then it is so.
mircea_popescu: and the discussion isn't "default ones". discussion is "cultural ones", ie, "the complete mass of expectations"
phf: v19 most people agree was the pinnacle of old school emacs, making that the default though is entirely impractical since most of the elisp code has changed drastically since. moving forward along the versions is the movement from "pure emacs" towards a "systemd included" dwim monstrosity.
mircea_popescu: yes well. complicated. discussing the simple things in lieu of the things being discussed is not much of a strategy.
trinque: proper way to use it is to M-x and run the function you want, and when that starts to ache you bind it to something quicker
trinque: everything behind a keybinding is also an M-x away
mircea_popescu: trinque so shockingly similar to how... #trilema bot ctrl sq work ?
mircea_popescu: phf the problem there is, that if a cut can't be identified, why are we even doing this.
mircea_popescu: which, imo, is enough to PERMANENTLY bury even the notion of "open source" as a "collaborative" endeavour.
phf: xahlee actually went as far as releasing egroemacs where he reworked every single keybinding, making the result obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild
mircea_popescu: (why the fuck he runs adwords is another question for another time)
phf: mircea_popescu: scripting in emacs is to great extent about customizing the ux behavior of the system
phf: so a set of functions that modify the contents of the buffer will usually include among other things script specific changes to keybindings, that are designed to slightly adjust the default global and make assumptions about what that default global is.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:36 phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa
mircea_popescu: phf and i'm a troglodyte for thinking this isn't right ?
phf: mircea_popescu: it's part of my rant "why emacs is evil"
a111: Logged on 2018-05-17 19:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, the machine itself, hardware-wise, is incapable of multiuser. it leaks its memory via cache timings on 3 or 4 different layers ; it lacks its state via nic delays, it leaks like a sieve.
mircea_popescu: seems to me it's the exact same problem, cat held by tail trying to scratch the hand holding it.
mircea_popescu: well so then would you agree that " obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild" is actually a desirable situation ?
trinque: it's an AST editor, attaches a user interface to a parsed AST, keybindings have been considered part of the UI for a given grammar
trinque: better situation would be "here kid, have some functions. it's your job to bind them"
trinque: mircea_popescu: because I don't want to discuss with anyone how my own private desk is arranged
trinque: "nah, can't bend the girl over that corner. right corner is the pussy tray!"
mircea_popescu: trinque so then your desk can't be part of paperwork delivery because courrier doesn't know how to leave you paper ; and you'll have to clea nthe room yourself as the black woman hired to clean the place can't interact with your desk ?
trinque: nah, it means I can speak any language I want to my girl, and she still knows how to take the mail from the courier
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so the proper thing to say is, "climacs never existed"
mircea_popescu: not every time a dweeb dreams up a situation where he talks to the girl across is a relationship.
mircea_popescu: trinque i confess i'm lost in metaphore. how do you map "i dunno how the fuck you close this damned thing" operator situation to it ?
trinque: I'm proposing the right design is that in installing any module for the editor, you must as a matter of protocol attach its functionality to your keyboard in order to use
phf: asciilifeform: would you actually use a version 19 of emacs, if we managed to bring it up to date? it's almost a rhetorical question, since the result is most likely going to miss all the third party modes that you currently use without extensive amount of elisp patching
mircea_popescu: trinque so putatively, if i wish to tell someone some choice bits about his mother's sexual preferences in russian, i must first map A to A ?
trinque: freedom rather than bureau of keybindings, disorganized and distributed in the heads of shithub derps as it is
trinque: mircea_popescu: depends on whether c-o to switch windows is cosmic truth or finger length / hand shape
phf: e.g. i'm using 22 for work, and in order to get slime working on it, i had to revert slime to some 2010 version, which in turn wasn't quite compatible with sbcl, etc. etc.
phf: well in my case btcbase is written in common lisp, so slime, unless i also rewrite btcbase in elisp
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi what you're doing. this is what this opening of the pandora box is all about, trying to grok it once.
mircea_popescu: well no, climacs was "above a momentary wad of spit, but it did not add up to something that can be used."
mircea_popescu: so basically the correct move is, throw out emacs, rewrite it in sane lisp ?
trinque: throwing it out otherwise involves what, vimscript? or py, rubby, lua, etc. bindings
mircea_popescu: is this an intractable problem in itself, or do the sort of people who could do it, keep getting distracted with idiocy ?
trinque: this is I'm sure why gabriel_laddel got some attention for a wbit
phf: mircea_popescu: i get it, i'm being sloppy because i want it to be obvious that the box is indeed pandora's box
mircea_popescu: exactly. it's a "risk free" adventure in the sense all one risks is own time.
phf: climacs also had insane resource usage and equally large dependencies, can't run it without mcclim, and we've had a thread about that.
phf: so it was slow, potentially structurally so because of mcclim to begin with
mircea_popescu: but much to my surprise, you demonstrated a tower of ductape lisp-flavoured drink that was fast.
phf: there's also portable hemlock in common lisp and edwin in scheme
mircea_popescu fully expected another rehash of "oh, it's glacial", as people then present no doubt remember.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not really ; can get away with letting grandfathered systems work it. exactly how we bootstrap ada.
trinque: this is why I don't intend to put emacs into the genesis
trinque: gotta leave room for a few runs at it
mircea_popescu: it's a limited window, between (now, when we get the replacement going)
mircea_popescu: potentially -- black guy with erection standing at your door about to ring bell.
trinque: asciilifeform: omitting everything from genesis but that which brings you to a shell
mircea_popescu: if you don't wanna be potentially sexed, don't potentially open the potent doors.
trinque: yeah, there's patches to be had though
phf: that headache essentially enforces an emacs 25 though
phf: mircea_popescu: the emacs headache on musl that asciilifeform mentioned
mircea_popescu: yes but be specific! he asks how, i ask which, same deal.
phf: yeah, i'm slow right now, but i'll get there
phf: well, lisp machines have this concept of loading code into memory and then dumping the memory image for a fast restart later
trinque: gentoo musl overlay has an emacs-24.5.r5
phf: emacs does the same thing, except in order to do image dump it used some internal glibc (!!!) hack
phf: at some point the implementation was reworked, i was certain that was 25, but trinque just said that he has a 24 version
phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ftr, i don't believe this "save object code" thing is handled correctly.
mircea_popescu: because while pompously called "memory dump", it rather is just "make a binary out of lisp".
phf: mircea_popescu: it's not, but as the mail trinque linked points out "the right solution requires a significant overhaul by someone with expertise in emacs internal"
mircea_popescu: well, the soviets seem tho be inclined to think that's you.
mircea_popescu: better punishment for putting a funny snippet in an online chat has never been metted out!
phf: well, i was hoping this conversation will steer towards which version we should go with. i'd love to try bringing 19 up to date, but i'm afraid the result of that effort will be that asciilifeform and trinque will just keep using own version on workshop. further into future we move, the gnarlier the code gets (i think i pasted 10x size increases with every new emacs release)
mircea_popescu: phf nah, this is a dumb approach. nevermind "what version", first and foremost, "what do we want here"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't even care so much about that, because of the well ilustrated, here and everywhere else, history of idiots involvement.
mircea_popescu: nobody involved with lisp coding, starting with rms, and onwards, had a functioning noggin.
mircea_popescu: it's all piles upon piles of hacks by "please, god, mom, someone, send someone who knows what shit is to beat me up for all this." kiddos crying for dad.
phf: mircea_popescu: see if i think that version secretly reveals how how many of the comforts of "modern" emacs we want to sacrifice, and likewise nails down the wants
mircea_popescu: im not sure why you'd think that ; but not the end of the world.
phf: 19 is '98 technology, missing unicode, definitely missing ssl, i'm not sure how much networking code is there, etc. etc.
phf: networking code C/elisp, that's required to use e.g. slime
mircea_popescu: because on the strength of "networking code C/elisp, that's required to use e.g. slime" how about you lot unearth the old borland c ide and use that and be happy.
phf: well, that's what's in everyone's workshop, piles and piles of hacks
mircea_popescu: myeah. and maybe the discussion is both a little premature and a little touching raw nerve ; but nevertheless the progress on packaging, first ave1 with musl, coming up trinque cuntoo, etc etc WILL lead to it.
mircea_popescu: moreover, and this is the very heart and soul of this here republic, one who discusses his problems acquires the two magical things : solutions ; and supporters. whereas one who toils in unknown "privacy" produces mcclims and such sad things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except for the part where i keep putting uniturds in all the time, persian, chinese, whatever.
mircea_popescu: the honest truth of the matter is that we don't even know what we want yet
mircea_popescu: but this yes, exposes a major question that may help. is emacs "ide" ? or is emacs "wm" ?
mircea_popescu: ie, is it fine to say "you wanna chat, use gossipd ; you wanna program, use emacs" ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also use it as wm; will endure the occasional freeze-ups because if emacs has died well then the whole machine's utility to me has gone to epsilon anyways
mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
☟︎ trinque: possible I'd be entirely comfortable most days in a DOS + emacs, provided the term was big enough
phf: i've used emacs under dos for almost a year..
phf: emacs, in dos flavor and in general, has a support for transliteration in both input and output, so you can even edit orc language with some minor discomfort
phf: asciilifeform: back then i had slightly different concerns, nor did i build anything that wasn't already built. the whole thing compiles with djgpp, clisp is also available. bulk of the code i wrote was either common lisp by way of clisp or allegro "games" and visual hacks and such
mircea_popescu: so to beat this horse : is multitasking a desired feature, actually ?
phf: mircea_popescu: do you mean should the editor perform all kinds of functions in parallel?
mircea_popescu: phf trying to whittle down the "ide" vs "wm" dispute. multithreading is a major point here.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:52 mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect it might be more than "an infinite loop in sbcl, to not hose emacs" ; for instance, it might include & behaviour.
phf: there's two parallel discussions though, the technical should there be support for preemptive execution in whatever substrate (elisp virtual machine, linux, etc.) and the ux should the system give you ability to maintain multiple contexts
phf: irc works in emacs without multithreading, while emacs window manager relies on linux level preemptive execution
phf: but the first one is about explicitly maintaining multiple contexts, the other one is a technical detail (at the end of the day who cares that emacs is the one doing the management?)
mircea_popescu: people who expect to run it atop musl as opposed to atop gnarl, that's very much who.
mircea_popescu: consider the slime/elisp/c discussion again. how much of an os is this emacs going to be ?
mircea_popescu: as far as i can tell, we've not yet said "emacs is really not the name we give the tmsr-os"
mircea_popescu: there's good reason to equate os and code editor, incidentally. as the ~fundamental~ job of an operating system is to transform machine failures into debug sessions.
mircea_popescu: to put it more stringently, "if your machine dumping core doesn't produce an emacs session, why aren't you using dos again ?"
☟︎ phf: there are layers and layers of cruft, some things that we haven't mentioned but that's implicitly part of the conversation. should there be x11, should emacs be the first thing that linux boots and nothing else, etc.
mircea_popescu: i would very much support a lot of emacs effort if it gets one rid of having to ~also~ support x11 ; and vice-versa. for instance.
ben_vulpes: no x11 means no graphical wwwtron, right?
mircea_popescu: leaving this briefly aside, consider the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack. there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called tabs).
☟︎ mircea_popescu: you need these two piles of idiocy separate like you need a penis for peeing and another penis for also peeing.
mircea_popescu: which is why the idiots make feeble efforts to reunite them, as recently lulzed at wrt unity, a few days ago
mircea_popescu: of course, proceeding blindly and randomly from the wrong edge etc. but the problem is obvious enough even cumshots on cumshothub notice it.
mircea_popescu: if emacs is the wm, then it'd better a) rid me of browser and b) be capable of previewing for me the graph / naked slut / we i'm about to put on trilema, both BEFORE uploading and as part of the final page preview.
ben_vulpes: eww, the builtin browser is sorta step-up from lynx/links: no js, but can do images/svgs with the appropriate libs linked against
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then, if no builtin browser, why have emacs as wm at all.
mircea_popescu: understand, i'm not proposing the one tru way here. but i do want to know why the cuts are made, if made. because otherwise wtf.
mircea_popescu: best definition of what a cult is, incidentally. "why was this cut there specifically ?" "i dunno." that's it, that's a cult. can't answer as to why was something cut where it was.
ben_vulpes: implementing the DOM and all of the california complexity doesn't mesh neatly with the text rendering already extant. i use emacs as wm around browser and some other things (not many other things, really, but 'modern' dom-o-tron is sadly yet central to $work), for the expediency of my workbench having a single scriptinglang to move windows around, split whole monitor and arrange for specific workflows...
ben_vulpes: i'm amenable to dom as presentation model, but abhor the browser scripting language and the cpp hydras that render the html/css/jsoup. that said if we cut "teh modern webb!" off entirely, i'll hafta bifurcate my workbench.
mircea_popescu: why not just get rid of cpp css/js processors ; have proper execution model for javascript.
mircea_popescu: do you have any idea what a ~proper~ model for javascript would be worth in productivity terms ?
mircea_popescu has seen the "debug" "expert" modes on every browser, holy shit...
mircea_popescu: /************* DO NOT ALTER ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE ! **************/
trinque: "state": "off" << wahahaha
mircea_popescu: DM.molFeComponents.setConfig('molFeSmartBanner', {"android":{"averageUserRating":4.5,"formattedPrice":"FREE - In Google Play","trackCensoredName":"Daily Mail Online","storeUrl":"
https://play.google.com/store/a ben_vulpes: i don't really see the point to importing rounded corners into republican tooling
mircea_popescu: but there;s a difference between graphical = "rounded corners" (in the
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1821998 sense of that term, "One of the motivations for the changes is to enable animations and transitions. If you use gtk_style_context_save/restore in your draw() function, that prevents GTK+ from keeping the state that is needed to support animations; so you should avoid it when you can.") and graphical = "mp would lik
☝︎ mircea_popescu: e to be able to not have to plot "< awk -F, '/Bitterbean/ {print $3,$5}' testall.csv" using 1:2 t "Better Bitterbean" w p pt 1, \"
mircea_popescu: is it ~so wrong~ to want to have either literal or graphical display for a csv, as an option ?
mircea_popescu: maybe i really don't want to look at it as a succession of numbers. why, because i'm such a troglodyte ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 04:57 asciilifeform: well, on classical x11 i have, e.g., machine that runs, say, 20 gui proggies, and each one 1) is on an entirely different machine, somewhere else, some of them not even on same continent 2) behaves EXACTLY as if it were running locally, window reshapes, etc 3) none have any shared state with the others, each sees local disk only of own local machine etc
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 19:45 mircea_popescu: leaving this briefly aside, consider the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack. there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called tabs).
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 00:11 asciilifeform: i always thought this was one of the spiffiest things re the smbx boxes
a111: Logged on 2015-02-26 21:07 asciilifeform: mats: for one thing, it it can't be piped over ip, it isn't a substitute for x
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 18:16 asciilifeform: 'Bram Cohen, famously invented BitTorrent' 'proofs of space and time' [many squigglies] 'decentralized, and more secure' 'Install and setup Keybase' etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nevertheless, consider : when the ~only~ possible use of x11 comes to fore, which is to say, playing a video game, all EVERYONE can think of is "how do i makew this a texrt client"
mircea_popescu: you've already stopped using x11. that you don't admit this, well, different story. but in point of fact, x11 is already off by default.
mircea_popescu: and it doesn't stop there ; are you aware "modern browser" won't even allow luser to set referrer string ? it's either "nothing at all" or else "Speak the truth". why ? so that fetlife can imp[lement faux security a la "oh, your referrer is incorrect, best relogin".
mircea_popescu: some of them grudgingly still allow individual cookie inspection -- but NOT EDITING COOKIES
mircea_popescu: and moreover, why shouldn'\t i be able to see the dom tree and permit/disallow certain branches from running ?
mircea_popescu: ("oh, mp, people would turn adds of if we did that" "duh").
mircea_popescu: i ~should~ be able to enforce memory limits per branch, not fucking "nobody knows why firefox runs out of memory, but it has been leaking for 10 years straight now"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform point being, everyone uses curl, while pretending to have firefox. everyone uses terminal, while pretending to have x11.
mircea_popescu: this pretense is just as good present as absent, you know ?
mircea_popescu: THIS is what i fucking mean re views. if i wanna see my data as a graph it'd be useful if it were right there in the editor, and if i wanna see websites it'd better also.
mircea_popescu: otherwise... what ? STRICTLY only way to tell "do not load foreign pages" to "modern" browser is to turn off the dns port.
mircea_popescu: who's gonna rewrite this into sanity ? and why, so as to save the mozillatards ? break all the cr50s they scattered everywhere to save them ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform point is, if i am using emacs wm, WHY should i kludge everything. and if kludge is the way of the land, why do we give a shit about emacs.
mircea_popescu: because in all honestly, i wouldn't even ~deign~ rto look upon the shit that's dailymail other than through n layers of awk. i don't CARE whjat they think they're saying asnymore than i care what the fetwhores think they're saying.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 19:35 mircea_popescu: to put it more stringently, "if your machine dumping core doesn't produce an emacs session, why aren't you using dos again ?"
mircea_popescu: so to sum up this -- i have no dispute that everyone uses shards, bits and pieces hammered off named items, and pretends they're using the named items, "i use x11 in this so and so sense" "i use browser all day -- except not in any sense browser, of course" and so on.
mircea_popescu: this truth'd better be faced sooner than later. your x11 is x11 by abuse of terminology and naught else.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, the reasoning "a. i have here toe of mummified saint justinian ; b. saint justinian once saved people from drowning ; ergo c. drowning is solved problem in my case" is batshit.
mircea_popescu: everyone does it every day because the psychological pain of the laternative is just too great. but, great or small -- you're all fucking drowning.
mircea_popescu: i still gota plot < if i wanna see the graph of a csv. that's floating in lalaland.
mircea_popescu: it's not "oh, errybody has a rotten plank or two keeping'em afloat." it's "oh, everybody ~can manifest matter by will~, currently everybody hanging off the bare minimum rotten plank and they're not even COMPARED".
☟︎ mircea_popescu: when i was 16, my informatics teacher in the informatics lab told the kids upset at being stuck with the 286s (there were like half a dozen 386s too) that "if you ever get to where you mastered THAT cpu, you'll be way ahead of anything they teach in college anyway".
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 19:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on account of 40 yrs of os braindamage, folx often confuse what they want , in that they think they want multithread, but really want nonblockage
mircea_popescu: sure ; but still plenty of dragons to be killed on this island, before taking airship.
mircea_popescu: which fucking hell makes me itch for a knight's bounty session
mircea_popescu: tell you what, get me a box whose only remaining problem is that well... hardware sucks.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 16:18 asciilifeform: one of these was 'reactor control' , with realistic constants, you had to ramp up reactor, control the rods and the sodium pump etc, object was to get max power but avoid meltdown
mircea_popescu: in discussion is the "can't do anything, pentium sucks"
mircea_popescu: this is not directly evident to me. it is impossible to use the killer micro as a timeshare machine, yes.
mircea_popescu: it's the exact sort of problem discussed re "scientific paradigms". dazzling array of alternatives results in manifestly inept behaviours.
mircea_popescu: the golden age of the z80 games was principally driven by the fact that an intellectual unit (at the time, one guy + one gal) could churn out a game per season. most of the great "studios" of the time were this, coupla married math teachers.
mircea_popescu: this generally is the thing, "what a man and woman can do in their bedroom instead of another pregnancy"
mircea_popescu: item is 2004, and thoroughly infested with ms-isms. sadly earlier items not really online
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:31 asciilifeform: in so far asciilifeform is concerned, the 'universal' workstation is emacs-in-ratpoison.
mircea_popescu: esthlos yeah, by now there's a very large userbase for emacs established.
mircea_popescu: there were also the "window" eeprom things, yes, but not really the same thing.
mircea_popescu: ro was getting all sorta decadent bourgeois items by the late 80s.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty sure baneasa made them ; but stopped ccaq 1988 and i doubt any crates survive untouched