238 entries in 0.29s
mircea_popescu: as people (alf, mostly) pointed out in the intervening coupla years, there's absolutely no sane reason to marry
gossipd to extant-internet, or tcp/ip or etc, as the original draft was trying to
mircea_popescu: but honestly,
gossipd as a finished product can not possibly come other than with a mesh-over-wifi and mesh-over-radio ready made.
mircea_popescu: trinque i know i brought this on myself, but an unsubscribe will be useful so i don't get everything on
gossipd spec twice lol
mircea_popescu: moreover nothing prevents emergent/de facto specs. the job of the
gossipd spec is to keep people from doing world-breaking idiotic stuff. how they handle their own wives is their own problem.
mircea_popescu: of either kind in his production ; nevertheless he also claims dc is sufficient to sink any attempt to implemnet a
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: the matter in dispute is how to handle authentification. one solution is decrypt-challenge. the other solution is signed-hello. i reject signed-hello for a number of reasons, both practical and theoretical, which alf doesn't seem to think much of but which i am satisfied are sufficient to sink any attempt to implement a
gossipd on sh. alf purports to reject dc on similar grounds, except i can't find anything like an argument
mircea_popescu: this is necessarily not
gossipd / bitcoin / p2p world.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, is there such a thing as a
gossipd spec even ? what's the current canonical version ?
mircea_popescu:
gossipd does "for friends ears only". and the only way to make sure that can't happen, si by signing things. because once signed, they're definitionally for everyone equally well.
mircea_popescu: but all this stuff aside, back to the important point here : the "
gossipd-like" thing contemplated for moving signed material (ie, v stuff) around is very much a different beast from the actual
gossipd, which doesn't work on signed material ; presumably doesn't work on tcp etc.
mircea_popescu: if we have to leave freenode before
gossipd is ready we'll reimplement ircd.
mircea_popescu: what's more important is that
gossipd works like otp : "sure you can decrypt this text mr evil. WHAT would you like it to decrypt to ?"
mircea_popescu: it quickly becomes dubious. because a signature permits a certain relationship. whereas
gossipd rests on dubious relationships.
mircea_popescu: i'll just continue using my current system, because such a
gossipd would be an outrageous degradation of everything.
mircea_popescu: a
gossipd that requires me to sign anything is not to any degree interesting.
mircea_popescu: this is not only a ridiculous hope, but contrary to design principle. the point of
gossipd is that he sees.
mircea_popescu: well, the principal difference between
gossipd-for-v and
gossipd-proper is that v operates on signed matter exclusively ;
gossipd-proper operates on unsigned matter exclusively.
mircea_popescu: certainly it is not contemplated here thatg anyone would be forced to run v to get
gossipd. heck, i don't even believe such "forcing" would be in principle possible.
mircea_popescu: anyway. this "separation of concerns" objection would have a lot more meat on its imaginary bones if there actually eixsted any sort of
gossipd. as there doesn't, the objection has no legs to stand on.
mircea_popescu: yeah, as contemplated in
gossipd there is no difficulty. but mining, still exists.
mircea_popescu: in fact, mining is included in the
gossipd implementation of privacy ; re-read the example given there to phf.
mircea_popescu: for... all implementations ? like, it happened to you so now
gossipd-central updates my
gossipd ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. so now you're married to hardware ? why even do it software then, make
gossipd a chip
mircea_popescu: anyway. uci is not
gossipd. there is a good reason to implement
gossipd OVER uci, but on the uci layer the thing shouldn't be concerned with this kind of security i don't thinl
mircea_popescu: it's a pretty dumb solution to a
gossipd problem, so only if it's very little work
mircea_popescu: (if you mean, in
gossipd. if you mean in general... ouf, complicated issue.)
mircea_popescu: you ever got to read the many discussions re
gossipd in log ? this part is there.
mircea_popescu: the obvious pill being, of course, point to point encryption via uci on top of end to end encryption via
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually this should work as a proper tor relay for
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: there's at least a dozen disparate, independently useful items that go into a
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: (but since we digressed - and this ineptitude leads them into all sorts of lulz. for instance, SPEECH was protected by constitution. as in, the activity of
gossipd. not WRIT, such as an imaginary right to publish slander. etc.)
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying, the way communication works irl is precisely like contemplated
gossipd scheme, and exactly NOT like bbs/irc/webetc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such thing as "to X Y",
gossipd being a pairwise protocol.
mircea_popescu: so : the genesis message, ie, the first communication between a pair (
gossipd is a pairwise comms mechanism) includes 10 keys.
mircea_popescu: obviously once
gossipd is an actual thing, the only way to talk to your boxen becomes
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: we're prolly going to actually need
gossipd before we have it.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman maybe by the time that's on the plate, we actually change in-game chat to
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: trinque> seems the voice model pairs with
gossipd rather well, where voicing is a matter of message forwarding rules << it doesn't even pair, it IS it. substance of the universe, not even protocol.
mircea_popescu: trinque> next step ought be
gossipd neh? <<< yes. but you know... no cipher yet even.
mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432824 << suppose instead of runnign off to some sort of centralism, you just use the tools available ? they're here for this purpose ; you've seen them at work.
gossipd didn't come out of the void, but out of practice based on philosophy honed with practice built on philosophy and so on and again numerous iterations over the years.
☝︎ mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> purely for exploratory reasons - how far are you willing to take the
gossipd ? << how about quantum money ?
mircea_popescu: purely for exploratory reasons - how far are you willing to take the
gossipd ?
mircea_popescu: so you want to have a proper meld here,
gossipd-bitcoin
mircea_popescu: the whole point of
gossipd, as i was trying to explain it to that torhead dude, is that you can't know.
mircea_popescu: but once this is done, the "network outside of
gossipd" becomes a mere fiction.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and
gossipd is specifically not a solution to hermetically seal the network.
mircea_popescu: eventually you'll have
gossipd and will want
gossipd-based networking
mircea_popescu: the only assurance to be had here comes from a
gossipd model. where anyone could have written the plaintext, and for all anyone POORLY CONNECTED knows, they probably did.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: consider what happened in
gossipd when i said the line above : "<mircea_popescu> you don't know who he has in his contacts.". buncha nodes that i know went "we heard mp say so" to their downlist
mircea_popescu: anyway, the model
gossipd is supposed to use is, you pass along traffic to your peers, if you're satisfied that it comes from either youself or a peer. it's a sort of messaging-over-wot. exactly like v works.
mircea_popescu: you should prolly also look into the vaporware that still is
gossipd.
mircea_popescu: (for one thing : if IT could find the right ones, add that to
gossipd and we have essentially built passive autonomous system software, ie, the evil ai.)
mircea_popescu: punkman notably, the one difference between this and
gossipd is that it really doesn't require so much trust. the paramount question isn't to make it possible for derps to safely exchange child porn or whatever, the paramount question is to make it possible to run a chan without having to bow down to an isp providing server space.
mircea_popescu: but be all this as it may, for as long as
gossipd.pop | print yields ((1,2),(2,3)) for me while
gossipd.pop | mathgraph yields whatever ascii wants it to yield, we're happy.
mircea_popescu: hey check that out, zimmerman makes nsa-phone and david chaum makes nsa-
gossipd.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and i expect
gossipd to be undistinguishable for the phillipino/redditarded eye from current b-a log.
mircea_popescu: looky. a
gossipd based on the concept that you keep firewalled clients at home and they connect to a random pile of websites, which simply respond with pgp -w text
mircea_popescu:
gossipd must work on a pull model. exactly like old ml.
mircea_popescu: there is absolutely no reason for
gossipd to work on a push model of data transfer.
mircea_popescu: also, thinking about it, it occurs to me that the model we've been using to think about
gossipd is fundamentally broken.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field your
gossipd node is stuck doing a version of this.
mircea_popescu: but so far we don't even know if we actually want rsa (this for lack of
gossipd) nor have we studied shoup etc.
mircea_popescu: so
gossipd is practically going to be lisp hand-compiled ot c ?
mircea_popescu: phf notice that the
gossipd thing was specced, the pgp one has not.
mircea_popescu: there's also a bunch of large-ish stand-alone items, such as the
gossipd (which might still be done by artifexd, haven;t heard from him for a while) and a proper redesign of pgp
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there can trivially be
gossipd-over-blockchain.
mircea_popescu: what, jam tomorrow, maybe one day ima get
gossipd over udp, perhaps, who knows ? meanwhile half the remaining usg online is BASED, and requires udp to survive at all ?
mircea_popescu: ima see
gossipd alright. atm, the infrastructure is not the problem.
mircea_popescu: and jurov's working on an irc integration thingee, which i intend to upgrade to
gossipd once that's done, and generally...
mircea_popescu: but yes,
gossipd is the huge sort of project that looks like it'd benefit from a few failure reports from failed attempts before we seriously have a shot.
mircea_popescu: i guess we're all just holding our breaths for the
gossipd mircea_popescu: decimation
gossipd is not ready yet. freenode you mean ?
mircea_popescu: like, you knock off to decimation and two friends over
gossipd "can you ploxpoint your microtelescope at the x y z and send me the dump ?"
mircea_popescu: Hasimir you should probably look into
gossipd while at it, to understand why we think very little indeed of all these "solutions" or w/e they are, colored sugar beads.