ben_vulpes: for BingoBoingo http://i.imgur.com/NuNbW1X.gifv
mircea_popescu welcomes this renewed interest in early trilemaz!
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes first mentioned (ever! in history!) here : http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121007 then referenced in http://trilema.com/2017/dupa-dealuri/#comment-121112 and http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-deal-with-little-girls/#comment-121192
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606709 << is that vintage idiocy or novel ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 20:54 asciilifeform: 'Yes, it was mainly for FetLife's and my protection, and we had to act swiftly. One could easily argue that we didn't move swift enough and that I shouldn't even make this post because something in it might incriminate FetLife or me.' << lel
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606714 << was briefly discussed at the time ; if you recall the spec wasn't for centralization.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 20:55 asciilifeform: wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606720 << this pretty much sums up the idiocy of those people.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 20:59 asciilifeform: 'Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606728 << i don't readily perceive the difference between these two cases ; outside of "if girls are thirsty they're still stupid whereas if i need to shit i know where the wc is."☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 21:47 phf: so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606735 << i don't think anyone ever held that xcode is either functional or useful. apple likes it because it's tm and that's about it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 22:22 ben_vulpes: WHAT i ask you IS THE POINT of an ultra-heavy IDE that a) cannot tell me where the protocol breakage is during a refactor much less what to do about it b) has a project search SO MISERABLY BAD that a man must revert to grep in order to find ANYTHING
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606740 << broken everything is always this. never anything else. not even possible to be anything else.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 22:32 asciilifeform: broken searches are nearly always a result of some pathetic piece of shit trying to 'be clever'.
mircea_popescu: broken shit is what you get when you don't let the "overly agresive Alphas" beat shithead manning into a bloody pulp.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what's the "everything should be free" thing ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606759 << new. from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606683☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 01:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606709 << is that vintage idiocy or novel ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 18:30 ben_vulpes: http://pastebin.com/FFSQUML9 << the fiat noose tightens
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606755 is first-class lulfodder btw.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
mircea_popescu: heh. they should have thought of THAT before being annoying.
mircea_popescu clearly recalls that when i showed somethingawful.com the cat they immediately stfu and ran away.
asciilifeform: waiwat, who thought of what
mircea_popescu: nothing easier than to turn off cc processing for one of these "website businesses"
asciilifeform: aaah them
mircea_popescu: takes me all of half an hour to organize a 10% chargeback pile, which is the immediate end, for isntance.
mircea_popescu: and this isn't just re derpy "democratic" forum or herpy "free" sexploitatation venue. this applies to the fucking guardian, or to wikipedia.
mircea_popescu: the ONLY reason they're still here is that i've not decided to end them.
asciilifeform: not worth bullet, eh
mircea_popescu: not even that. i don't perceive they're actually hurting. yes they're fucking up the lives of idiots. so ?
thestringpuller: http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/25/venezuelan-authorities-bitcoin-crypto << didn't realize VZ was fascists? Secret police starting to round up Bitcoin miners eh?
asciilifeform: iirc there was a spiffy mircea_popescu article about the costs of letting 'harmless' idiots live (makes idiocy seem acceptable)
asciilifeform: but i can't recall where.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider ben_vulpes 's latest article. the choice is very clearly available ; the sort of mind who nevertheless opts for idiocy truly deserves it.
asciilifeform: theoretically there is a borderland of folx who straddle the edge of sanity
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to forcibly get people to stop smoking.
asciilifeform: they ask 'can i get away with being idiot'
mircea_popescu: yes i'm aware that forcibly works and their own heads don't. so ?
asciilifeform: 'Morales had no rope. And no fingers. He had a ten-foot length of bandage. And brass balls. Somehow, this dude with no fingers lowers himself from the window on the bandage. It snaps. Morales falls 20 feet onto an air conditioner, then another 20 feet to the ground. Injured, but alive. The Family and FALN whisk him away.' << first-class.
mod6: So, my V changes that implement a proper wot-variant V are looking pretty decent. however, I thought up an edge case that I'd like to discuss a bit more -- and I know we've been over this a bunch, and even recently.
asciilifeform: mod6: bring it on
mod6: Say that we have a flow, like trb, with all sorts of vpatches that stem from one single root. where that root is designated as a 'root' because all of its inputs are 'false'. what should happen with a vpatch that, for instance, just adds a file to the source and has no antecedents, nor decendants.
asciilifeform: mod6: like shiva genesis ?
asciilifeform: it's a second root and mircea_popescu really, really hates'em.
mod6: so this one single vpatch has a 'false' input, and a non-zero sha512 output.
asciilifeform: but they work fine in my vtron.
asciilifeform: you just see two roots.
mod6: ok, i'd have to look at shiva genesis again here. but yeah, multiple roots.
asciilifeform: each with entirely own existence .
asciilifeform: they don't screw the thing up in any way.
mircea_popescu: actually that status451 article is not half bad.
mircea_popescu: mod6 such a "patch" may not exist.
mod6: so in the case of my previous implementation (V99995), these island-roots would simply endup at the end of the flow, as a leaf. as they are both a root and a leaf at the same time.
mircea_popescu: either it builds in its own independent tree, or else it declares an antecedent in the trb tree.
asciilifeform: mod6: wtf means 'root and leaf at the same time'
mircea_popescu: rule is very simple : all items with false inputs create a project. whole, independent.
asciilifeform: these are definitionally separate things
mod6: ok, so that's basically what I was wondering. to be designated a proper 'root', do we also add the criteria of "must have an actual proper decendant"
mircea_popescu: mod6 nope.
asciilifeform: mod6: consider the time when genesis alone existed.
asciilifeform: it was a perfectly valid vtree.
asciilifeform: the way, e.g., FUCKGOATS-genesis, is today.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mod6: ok i guess that would be bad in the sense that "i'm just staring this project, my genesis should be a root even though nothing descends it yet..."
mod6: asciilifeform: yah, got it.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: wtf means 'root and leaf at the same time' << in the old code, it is a root, because it has no antecedents, and it is a leaf because it also has no descendants.
asciilifeform: aah
mircea_popescu: the latter dun exactly make it a leaf tho
asciilifeform: at any rate 'solitary node' is a perfectly valid state for a vtree.
mircea_popescu: the criteria for root/leaf are the same : anything false, root. anything non-false, leaf.
asciilifeform: i can easily picture, e.g., FUCKGOATS, staying in that shape for the rest of eternity.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> either it builds in its own independent tree, or else it declares an antecedent in the trb tree. << so in the latter part here, should my 'foobar.vpatch' that just adds one file without any antecedents or descendants actually inherit an antecedent, in this case 'genesis.vpatch' ? just trying to understand ...
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: all patches to trb tree must refer to an antecedent in the trb tree. no exceptions. if "nothing comes to mind", genesis is a fine default.
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu's criticism of shiva-genesis was 100% deserved, it ~does in fact~ logically depend on trb, but did not indicate said dependence vtronically
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is one of those cases of "sit on side of sanity ask what can get away with".
mircea_popescu: just because it works(tm) ie could be got away with is no good reason to actually try.
mod6: so say we go with that... that 'foobar.vpatch' just inherits an antecedent 'genesis.vpatch'; how does one distinguish between 'foobar.vpatch' as a root and 'genesis.vpatch' as a root without additional criteria?
asciilifeform: setting up a wholly artificial dependence also rubbed me wrong
asciilifeform: hence the choice
mircea_popescu: but an important point here i must stress is the COGNITIVE LOAD of a v tree. these aren't mechanical "oh, it changed x file so it goes with x". you think, as the author, and exactly in the manner of scoring wot members : what should this item be anchored on ?
mod6: both of these have all inputs as 'false' -- hard for the code to tell which should be witch at face value without something "and it has at least one descendant"
mircea_popescu: v links add value ; which couldn't have been made by "an ai"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform an item can exist in two copies : as its independent tree AND ALSO as a patch imported in a project.
mircea_popescu: trb-shiva should be trb-shiva ; if shiva-genesis also exists nothing is hurt thereby.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall, i actually had a wholly separate shiva-bridge
mircea_popescu: yea
asciilifeform: (the reason for which, was to demonstrate that shiva was tinyscheme largely as-found-in-the-forest)
mod6: the main reason that I bring this up; 'foobar.vpatch' is being dumped out of the flow and causing problems since i've implemented the axiom of 'a vpatch can only be in the flow if all of its antecedents are present.' which causes a problem in this case as it gets chucked out as an orphan.
mircea_popescu: should be rebased.
asciilifeform: mod6: if your vtron throws out a valid, signed-by-wot patch that has 0 antecedents, it is broken
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu's dictum of 'have 1 root' cannot be enforced mechanically, vtron has no business deciding arbitrarily which root is 'the' root)
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: it should respond with "broken tree, fix seals" error and not press.
mod6: ok. what should the vtron do with these extra roots? place them at the end of the flow as leafs?
asciilifeform: cultivating a project with multiple roots may be bad form, but vtron ~must~ display properly
asciilifeform: mod6: should do 100% what mine did.
mircea_popescu: no, it should just fail the press.
asciilifeform: display both flows correctly, press if asked.
asciilifeform: (and follow the correct sequence to the respective root if pressing)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i disagree that multiple-roots should be a mechanical eggog.
mircea_popescu: why ?
asciilifeform: it is a logically valid, if stylistically undesirable, state
mircea_popescu: it is not logically valid.
mircea_popescu: the concept of "a press" towards more than one root is actually devoid of content.
asciilifeform: but you can never do this
mircea_popescu: besides the point.
asciilifeform: you pick a node to press to.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: it cannot be part of two disconnected flows.
asciilifeform: this is impossible to arrange even deliberately.
mircea_popescu: more than one root === disconnected flows.
mircea_popescu: this is what teh words mean.
asciilifeform: yes but all points on the graph are unambiguously pressable to.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
asciilifeform: this is what i meant by 'logically valid.' it isn't a '1 == 2'
asciilifeform: it's euclid's 5th.
mircea_popescu: it is, yes.
mircea_popescu: i mean, it is a 1=2.
asciilifeform: i get that mircea_popescu really, ~really~ hates multirooted vtrees. this doesn't make'em '1==2'
asciilifeform: they don't crash the algo.
asciilifeform: not when it is written correctly (i.e. as i did)
asciilifeform: they don't lead to unexpected 'wtf'
asciilifeform: thing -- behaves.
mircea_popescu: well, i get it that you think you did, except you didn't, because, note this, BECAUSE it didn't crash your algo.
mircea_popescu: vtron that presses a multi-root tree is, by that very fact, a broken implementation.
asciilifeform: i get it, mircea_popescu really hates blue colour, and thinks that merc engine should light eggog light an' stop immediately if it detects blue paint on chassis
asciilifeform: that dun make blue paint an eggog.
mircea_popescu: im not going to go into debugging your metaphors.
asciilifeform: you NEVER press 'a multiroot tree.' you press ~one node~, which has ~one root~
asciilifeform: every node in a tree with 1,001 roots, flows back to ~one~ particular root.
mircea_popescu: sigh. fine.
asciilifeform: and i entirely agree with mircea_popescu that working with such a thing is terrifyingly poor discipline.
mircea_popescu: vtron that presses a tree containing more than one genesis is, by that very fact, a broken implementation.
asciilifeform: how many other stylistic eggogs should v enforce ? tabs-v-spaces?
mircea_popescu: this is not a matter of "style", it is a matter of identity.
mircea_popescu: the project is named after its tree's genesis, and conceptually exists as and only as descendancy from that genesis.
mircea_popescu: speshul snowflakes need not apply ; they may be own trees, or leaves in extant trees, or not at all.
asciilifeform: in the case of tinyscheme, i dealt with (or at least thought i was dealing with) the case where two separate bloodlines merge.
asciilifeform: imho this is a distinct item and oughta remain indicable.
mircea_popescu: there is no merge in that sense.
asciilifeform: they fuck and have 1 child.
mircea_popescu: wife changes her name, becomes daughter of her husband's father.
mircea_popescu: like it or not, nobody asks her.
asciilifeform: but this was not wife, but concubine
asciilifeform: i specifically asked to memorialize the fact that i did not write tinyscheme.
mircea_popescu: no concubines allowed.
mircea_popescu: i don't care.
asciilifeform: this was, recall, before mircea_popescu's gordian knot cut of 'use multiple keys'
mircea_popescu: not sure it wasn't ; pretty sure that was always there, but yes i guess before the expliciting
mircea_popescu: anyway, not like patches can't be rebased into conformancy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu also tends to ignore the very real risk of 'no concubines, no children'
mircea_popescu: children are not a goal.
mircea_popescu: corectness, and corectness only, is the goal. if it produces no children so be it.
asciilifeform: this is a consistend position.
asciilifeform: *consistent
mircea_popescu: it is also the only safe one.
asciilifeform: to elaborate on the 'no children' bit, extreme strictness does not leave us with 'either correct software! XOR stone knives and bearskins and NO software!' but rather with 'massive pile of old broken software'
mircea_popescu: this is, after all, why we made v in the first place.
asciilifeform: aha. and one of the old plagues i aimed to cure, with v, was the 'fog of war' surrounding authorship.
asciilifeform: where 'everything' is written by 'everyone and no one'
asciilifeform: and so i remain skeptical of vtronic practices that obscure authorship, for whatever otherwise excellent reasons.
mircea_popescu: but understand that the only correct solution is to steal the natives babies and give them roman/spanish names.
mircea_popescu: there is no such "oh, we'll represent local-batshit in our system"
asciilifeform: you give'em spanish names but they live in slave quarters.
mircea_popescu: historically this isn't so accurate, everyone lived in the ~same shit.
asciilifeform: eh even modern mexico, the actual-people-people are white (as white as spain, at least)
asciilifeform: slave-fucking was a sometimes-thing there, evidently.
mircea_popescu: to put it in more direct terms : remove fog of war around authorship yes, but this can ONLY be done through denying the franchise to anyone outside of wot. only wot people can be authors of things, so in this sense anything, tinyscheme included, until and unless its meatspace authors fess up, is literally "found in forest" and will have to bear an actual man's name
mircea_popescu: there's no way to meaningfully assert "this leaf was made by $somenonpeople".
mircea_popescu: i caqn readily see why this irritates your otherwise very well developed and entirely respectable respect for knowledge.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, i am saying, flatly, that this isn't a knowledge. as per lieberman.
asciilifeform: if there is literally no way to memorialize the fact that i took $item off a dead nazi, or dug up from sunken atlantis, rather than wrote it personally -- said item will have to be done without. (unless someone else in your wot does the imho monumentally idiotic act of 'adopting it as own child')
asciilifeform: imho for no c program is this a safe (in terms of preserving one's honour) act.
asciilifeform: satoshi's liquishit is no child of mine.
asciilifeform: nor tinyscheme, etc.
asciilifeform: if i can't codify 'за что купил за то продал' -- we have problem.
asciilifeform: ( as per http://deedbot.org/deed-378272-1.txt )
asciilifeform: note that we did ~same thing for trb genesis.
mircea_popescu: the concept of identity in the fiat world has come under scrutiny every single time.
mircea_popescu: see the discussion of boeck's alleged "contributions" etc.
mircea_popescu: there isn't two different someones out there in a reliable sense.
asciilifeform: shiva(tinyscheme) is not a wife, it is a cow. it is quite possible to have a house without a cow. if you do have a cow, it lives in separate structure, and nobody will need to be reminded that it is not a wife.
asciilifeform: there must remain the option of keeping cow.
mod6: i think that cow aught to be rebased perhaps
asciilifeform: mod6: rebased how
mod6: it either goes in the tree or it does not exist.
asciilifeform: i ain't equating, e.g., tinyscheme, to works from my own pen.
asciilifeform: ain't happening.
asciilifeform: and, again, 'no cow -- no milk.' the alternative to shiva is not 'clean code from reliable people in wot' but the old satoshi abortion in continued use.
mircea_popescu: this wedge will not prevail. i'll do without any milk, forever.
mircea_popescu: the odds of something being imported to break the structure because hey, convenience are nil.
asciilifeform: except mircea_popescu is not doing without milk, he (and i, and the lot of us) is drinking the pus from syphilitic whore.
mircea_popescu: there is no such benefit as "milk" here.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that wedge will also not prevail.
asciilifeform: why does trb-genesis get special treatment in mircea_popescu's scheme ?
mircea_popescu: special, how ?
asciilifeform: in the sense that it is of heathen birth, but nevertheless memorialized as an origin and not subsumed
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu would not hold any of the signers answerable for its defects
mircea_popescu: mod6 i expect the correct solution going forward is : a) for someone (maybe trbf ?) to make a Wildman McFucksticks key which b) will be used to sign a compliant rebase of tinyscheme / anything else anyone finds in the woods and wants to sign.
mircea_popescu: it can even be a collective key, perhaps not in the sense of actually sharing the privkey, but perhaps trbf/holder signs items at request ; with the understanding it's all foundling crap anyway
asciilifeform: probably this is the only consistent and long-term-sane method.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: i also expect that (at least if traditional bitcoin continues to function interruptedly) promisetronic 'we the wise men agreed that hash H represents this tarball which existed in 2012...' will become entirely unnecessary and hence dispensed with in favour of actual pointers to deedbot
asciilifeform: *uninterruptedly
asciilifeform: though it still doesn't hurt to remember that deedbot (or any similar scheme) can only prove ~floors~ and never ~ceilings~
asciilifeform: no matter how it is made.
asciilifeform: (i.e. you can show that $item is ~no older~ than B blocks, but never ~no younger~)
mircea_popescu: indeed, this is a temporary fix we find selves in
mod6: heheh. this is complicated huh.
mircea_popescu: mod6 kinda the thing with prototyping, we end up with redesigns
mircea_popescu: "design clarifications" to be proper eh
asciilifeform: that 'days of rage' piece is monumental.
asciilifeform: mega-recommended.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mod6: I appreciate both of your thoughts and considerations on the subject matter.
asciilifeform: yw mod6
asciilifeform: lemme know if you need a hand with the algo (though imho my original proggy was pretty readable)
mod6: Much appreciated. Other than this problem with the roots at hand, I think mine is in pretty great shape. The implementation of the all-antecedents axiom creates a bit of a slant here for what I have. But I'll do some digging into what your v99 looks like again and see if I can't get something resolved with that.
asciilifeform: 'rage' commentz also interesting, in places:
asciilifeform: 'Myself I started to drift out of SDS when martial arts training became obligatory. When weapons training was required that was the end for me. What sent me away was not so much the notion of using a gun for a political end as that the providers of the guns were people who until five minutes previous could not fundraise a nickel bag for a party. Suddenly they had weapons, unlimited weapons, nice
asciilifeform: weapons, and an infinite supply of ammunition for training purposes. If they burned out an M60 by running it too hot there was another M60 ready to go. And a little farm in Wisconsin to use as a training facility. All the farmers in the vicinity could and did hear the M60 and the BAR, so could the local police, somehow in spite of every local looking daggers at the hippies when they passed through
asciilifeform: town there was no problem ever. Someone had arranged all this and it was not the Episcopal Church. Of course the two honchos who ran our chapter were both later exposed as pedophiles and FBI.'
asciilifeform: (if unverifiable.)
asciilifeform: 'Let me tell you about young Bernardine. She was a strikingly attractive woman. Beautiful clear olive skin. Busty and she showed it off all the time. And usually in high black boots. Not working class engineer boots, shiny black fetish gear. Have you seen the Weather movie? Through the entire “underground” period she wore that gear. They were “underground” on the Upper West Side, in the
asciilifeform: Columbia University neighborhood, where lots and lots of people knew who they were. And miraculously the FBI could not find them.'
mircea_popescu: seems believable.
asciilifeform: quite believable. my understanding is that '65s-'75 usa was undergoing a 'british empire' moment where 'youngest sons' of the elite had 'lack of breathing room' and went uppity, and threw a bit of tantrum before being reabsorbed, bill ayers style, into specially-created 'church' bureaucracies
mircea_popescu: anwyay, the farmer's faith in the functional ability of their institutions, fbi or whatever, is entirely misplaced. about half my friends throughout my entire ro period were "underground" or "on the lam" ; for that matter the italians recently arrested that dude with the cesar ciphers ? he was "hiding" for 30 years by then
asciilifeform: part of it is the 'uncatchable joe' aspect
asciilifeform: (very easy to 'underground' when no one is hunting)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. but the article makes a very solid point : the current "start-up culture" is EXACTLY this. as discussed in the trilema "sv pedos" piece and ailleurs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing is easier than http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121016 "I didn't ask the girl if she thinks I'm any good or not. This is neither her business nor something within her purview. I asked the girl if she thinks she has it in her to try and survive once the world (WHICH I OWN) is no longer friendly to her. I didn't ask the DA for his evaluation of me. I couldn't give less of
mircea_popescu: a shit what some random bureaucrat thinks on any topic. I asked the DA if he thinks he has it in him to survive once the world which I control is no longer tolerant of him."
mircea_popescu: easiest decision a bureaucrat ever made.
asciilifeform: of course we get to hear from the successful mircea_popescus, rather than the 'emperor nortons' who were SWATed like flies.
mircea_popescu: emperor norton died in his bed. well, after a fashion.
asciilifeform: well yes. but picture him transported, somehow, to obummer's usa.
mircea_popescu: anyway. it's a discussion of history not a proposal. woe to the apprentice wizard who fancies himself a wizard on the strength of having read the actual wizard's youth journal.
mircea_popescu: (contrary to the deeply desired implication reflected in the name, there's no relation between a wizard and an apprentice wizard.)
asciilifeform: apprentice is more of a walking spermatozoid than anything else.
asciilifeform: 'I read somewhere that whoever was calling for the most violence was who Bernardine latched onto and fucked silly. No violence, no pussy. '
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: fancy the inept seinfeld boys of the time, trying to find the secret rubik cube configuration
mircea_popescu: "we hacked bernardine! it's X!"
asciilifeform: smoke moar, waft away the plague miasmas.
asciilifeform: get married, grow taller!
mircea_popescu: apparently it works on some people!!!
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes on consideration piece not really worth translating ; it was a short intro for clueless ro audience. read eric berne &co instead.
adlai: the bug is calling it a 'root', it's actually a leaf. the "root" of the relevant patch tree is the node you're trying to press. the "second root" which makes less sense (but should still not eggog) is "press two nodes"
mircea_popescu: eh shuddup.
adlai was gonna update on 'homework' but complies with sir's request
asciilifeform: to continue the old thionyl thread: in other 'useful usg-mil substances asciilifeform had nfi existed!111!' : 'stabilant 22'
mircea_popescu: i coulda sworn was im logs
asciilifeform: not afaik.
mircea_popescu: !!rated adlai
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated adlai 1 at 2016/02/17 21:22:20 << alf's bff. nolispo.
mircea_popescu: !!rate adlai -10 Deliberately useless idiot.
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/eKlY0/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: !!v B87E2BD9BA6B6CAD2A58C7198027894B28FF7834F547AEA8D5EE89D9D673F3B6
deedbot: mircea_popescu updated rating of adlai from 1 to -10 << Deliberately useless idiot.
mircea_popescu: To be clear re ^ : dude's been trying to attack the republic for over a year by now through the remarkably idiotic procedure of speaking as if he has some weight. Because who knows, maybe we're all dumb dumb and this contextual approach actually works, we'll end up thinking he's somebody because he's been acting as if he were for so long, everyone forgot he isn't.
mircea_popescu: Let it be plainly stated that you treat this sort of subhuman scum as if it were a person at your own peril. It won't benefit by your sacrifice ; you will sooner or later end up in the sad position of discovering you no longer have a soul.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha fucktards at ietf actually put 451 into their forked version of the internet standard.
mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/simon_penn_r << ifanyone still has a twitter see if that status451.com dude wants to come over say hi ?
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606714 << if the thing was implemented as discussed (e.g. http://trilema.com/2015/a-proper-social-site-for-the-bdsm-community/#comment-117298) it would indeed not be centralised. or if it ended up relying on one central node, that node would be more like a passive store of pgp'd blobs. not to say that i believe this is the one true future and salvation,☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 20:55 asciilifeform: wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook.
Framedragger: but the thing *could* be developed orthogonally to gossipd's efforts, which is nice.
mircea_popescu: iirc it was cognate with gossipd.
Framedragger: but the originally conceived idea of a site which serves 'smart' JS which does pgp must be disposed of. i even looked into the state of the art in pinning (say, JS) web resources in html5 so the browser can be sure it's being served the same stuff, but it's ~undoable because the whole browserstack is rotten (and obvs JS doubly so)
mircea_popescu: truth be told it's not directly clear there's not actually a future for both insta and letter models (ie, irc and webforums, for instance, or phone calls AND mailing lists/bbsen) irrespective of historical poor implementation.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i suppose so, at least the latest concept iteration as developed in the comments
Framedragger: yeah!
mircea_popescu: Framedragger hey, you've... not exactly learned a lot, but actually examined a lot in the past few months huh!
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it's quite unclear to me that gossipd need be related to this other thing
Framedragger: i'm like that (useless) teacher in kobo abe's "woman in the dunes", walking around the desert and examining bugs :) one day i'll fall into a pit which houses a house and a woman, and i won't want to get out
Framedragger: yeah
Framedragger: (nice short story btw)
mircea_popescu: lol
Framedragger: anyway, maybe one day someone will elucidate me why -10 ratings is a thing for humans who have done a magicaltux
Framedragger: who have *not* done*
mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied in my mental representation of the fellow and won't be changing it. that's another name for certainty.
Framedragger: i suppose this ties into the "view WoT rating as a representation of degree of certainty" approach, aha.
mircea_popescu: well yes
Framedragger: http://www.burojansen.nl/bvd-aivd/dutch-secret-service-tries-to-recruit-tor-admin/ << student getting recruited to spy on kommunities
trinque: dutchies just wishing they were invited to the NSA, GHQ, BND party
trinque: also good morning gentlemen
Framedragger: a fine morning to yourself! i see you rise early
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606932 << the multiple keys thing keeps slipping out of your model of V. "this is my found 'liquishit' key".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 02:25 asciilifeform: if there is literally no way to memorialize the fact that i took $item off a dead nazi, or dug up from sunken atlantis, rather than wrote it personally -- said item will have to be done without. (unless someone else in your wot does the imho monumentally idiotic act of 'adopting it as own child')
trinque: beyond that, what kind of dishonest hanno shitbag would negrate you for an item you clearly picked up in the forest, and if he doesn't know you well enough to know what your work looks like, has no business rating you.
trinque: Framedragger: I like to start working when the other fleshy meatsacks are turned off
trinque: quieter
davout: "l'avenir appartient à ceux qui se lèvent tôt"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607021 << iirc d00d is one of those hard-drinking fellas; there was precedent in curing'em☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 07:07 mircea_popescu: To be clear re ^ : dude's been trying to attack the republic for over a year by now through the remarkably idiotic procedure of speaking as if he has some weight. Because who knows, maybe we're all dumb dumb and this contextual approach actually works, we'll end up thinking he's somebody because he's been acting as if he were for so long, everyone forgot he isn't.
asciilifeform: but granted, it is an unlikely thing.
adlai doesn't drink much anymore, but apparently mircea can still smell the solvent, like a satisfied homeopathic patient
adlai: the ready solution being to drink more (of the right fluids), talk less (of the wasted-breath variety), and maybe not as much in mircea's direction.
asciilifeform: adlai: consider that it is not obvious that you no longer drink.
adlai is not a teetotaler in most fields, despite the expulpated exhortations.
asciilifeform: adlai: also consider taking up useful work.
asciilifeform: as befits a literate d00d. write a vtron. or pick up an actual unsolved problem from the logz.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607048 << i did not forget it, trinque , but it is a very bitter pill, as i suspect folx will discover for themselves when they actually take said pill☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 12:04 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606932 << the multiple keys thing keeps slipping out of your model of V. "this is my found 'liquishit' key".
trinque: do elaborate
adlai doesn't like publishing incomplete work, even if it's useful for cave divering archaeologists. asciilifeform might be the first to see a useful turd, if one should drop. until then, radio silence.
trinque: though I favor http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607050☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 12:06 trinque: beyond that, what kind of dishonest hanno shitbag would negrate you for an item you clearly picked up in the forest, and if he doesn't know you well enough to know what your work looks like, has no business rating you.
asciilifeform: trinque: recall the 'tulpa' garden of horrors.
asciilifeform: trinque: for 'you clearly picked up in the forest' to hold, said fact must be clearly and unambiguously memorialized.
trinque: if you bring i.e. tinyscheme into a v-tree, is it not your cross to bear?
trinque: could always leave an expository comment in a file in your patch, but I don't know that it holds that "found item" is less the v-author's fault
asciilifeform: trinque: see the 'wife vs cow' example
trinque: there is the tulpa garden of horrors, and then there is the "everyone perpetually avoids blame" one
asciilifeform: trinque: that is the actual risk.
trinque: I understood it, but then we are after diminishing the standing of cows in the world
trinque: there is a risk in giving them any place at all
asciilifeform: trinque: realize that current infrastructure is ~100% 'cow'. witness that no one has signed off on, e.g., linux, or gcc, in 'own child' mode, and i will say that you would have to be drinking, to even consider doing so
trinque: we're discussing what's currently in a v-tree, though
trinque: ultimately the surgeon does take full responsibility for the life of the patient, even when the patient is 99% likely to bleed out
trinque: and in those cases I don't think any sane person faults him when the patient dies
trinque: only if someone were blindly applying patches if sealed, and blindly respecting ratings without regard to real relationship, would there be a problem.
asciilifeform: trinque: surgeon in real life makes ~astonishingly~ detailed record of ~what he found~ vs ~what he did~
trinque: I don't dispute the need of the record
trinque: what comes to mind there is a long scroll within the project
trinque: which each vpatch must (by convention) update
trinque: history.txt
trinque: room for as much rationale and backstory there as is required
asciilifeform: trinque: has a promisetronic flavour to it
trinque: conventions in society are just that; nothing protocolic prevents me from shitting on the floor
trinque: where is it enforced that WoT ratings mean what they do, other than in the minds of thinking men
asciilifeform: tru
trinque: and then when I shit, nobody seals my patch, and eventually I'm known as a floor shitter, and nobody regards my seal
asciilifeform: trinque: the real trouble comes when somebody shits and no one (including, often , the shitter) even notices until , years later, they step in it.
trinque: example as it pertains to the history.txt ?
asciilifeform: docs diverge from code routinely, and it is far from always the case that someone notices and corrects immediately.
trinque: aside from rationale given in history.txt, an author is giving his patch "without reservation"
trinque: scope starts from the broadest possible assertion of "this is, so help me god" and only narrows if somebody says
trinque: which doesn't obligate anyone to accept their narrowing, either
trinque: reactor 99947 vaporized the king upon inspection. who's asking the engineer what his rationale was?
asciilifeform: trinque: understand, i ~like~ docs, version histories, literate comments, and use'em in own work. but hey do not solve the problem from subj thread in a permanent and unambiguous way.
asciilifeform: *they
asciilifeform: trinque: a situation where literally nobody is willing to maintain reactor, is a very real risk.
asciilifeform: we are quite close to it even now.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607066 << i can certainly understand this viewpoint, but have come to also discover (and appreciate the fact) that tmsr does actually tolerate 'incomplete work' if it's useful, and provide gainful feedback.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 13:52 adlai doesn't like publishing incomplete work, even if it's useful for cave divering archaeologists. asciilifeform might be the first to see a useful turd, if one should drop. until then, radio silence.
asciilifeform: there are two fundamentally different, for all time, types of code.
trinque: asciilifeform: seems the problem there has as much to do with the fact that a gentleman would have to dedicate a very large part of his life to making further, sweeping improvements to the trb codebase
asciilifeform: 1) code that you wrote.
trinque: as whether anyone wants to sign
asciilifeform: 2) code others wrote
trinque: what is concerning is importing the github open source mentality of "not own code, not my fault"
asciilifeform: (2) can, with rivers of sweat, be -- theoretically-- subsumed into (1), but most folx who think that they have done this for a nontrivial program, are deluding themselves
trinque: I have seen this in every company I worked for in earlier years. guy grabs some open source turd, then when it breaks he cries "not my fault! just found it!"
asciilifeform: trinque: my aim in writing 'v' was to enable 'my code -- my responsibility '
trinque: indeed.
asciilifeform: imho this necessarily goes with 'not my code -- not my responsibility '.
trinque: what will prevent perpetual notmycode-ism
asciilifeform: there is no mechanical way of preventing idiocy.
trinque: there we agree wholly
asciilifeform: trinque: consider the trb-genesis as a successful use case of the thing i am asking for.
thestringpuller: !~isup http://danielpbarron.com/
jhvh1: thestringpuller: It's not just you. danielpbarron.com/ appears to be down.
trinque: ^ guy said something about migrating it
trinque: semi-relatedly, deedbot will be catching up on blocks for a bit this morning. I shut it down earlier to move old db files to a slower drive.
asciilifeform: trinque: in that instance, a number of people were able to sign some code without taking ~any~ authorship responsibility, but strictly to proclaim historical authenticity and provenance,
asciilifeform: .
trinque: we also agree on the necessity of being able to make that statement
asciilifeform: all i ask is that said act not require a collective head nod.
trinque: but as I see it, the statement was made adequately
asciilifeform: trinque: now consider mircea_popescu's objection to the way i structured shiva patches.
thestringpuller: Curb Your Enthusiasm is back after a 6 year hiatus. Larry David says he was "busy with other stuff"
thestringpuller: ^- for the Seinfeld fans, but they probably already know. (I was happily surprised).
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: planning to join adlai?
asciilifeform: trinque: the specific cure to 'not my fault, i Just Found It' is specifically the human-readable comments. which i included plenty of , including asciiart jolly roger, in shiva glue patch.
asciilifeform: it was quite clearly marked as a mortally dangerous thing, for laboratory use only.
asciilifeform: (my original aim with tinyscheme was strictly to weld an interactive debugger into own trbtron.)
asciilifeform: the problem, hypothetically, begins years from now, when i am living in nazi dome in antarctica, or long dead, etc. but at any rate moved past all of this; and other folx pick up shiva and decide that it is now 'safe'.
jurov: asciilifeform: will there ever be a "works as described, use in production" item in this vein?
jurov: i suspect never
asciilifeform: jurov: which item specifically
asciilifeform: and what means 'production'
jurov: anything NOT "marked as a mortally dangerous thing"
asciilifeform: is trb in use 'in production' somewhere ?
asciilifeform: the answer is unknown to me
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu still does not use trb to touch actual megacoinz
trinque: depends if you consider deedbot production use
trinque: but it has worked rather well there
asciilifeform: trinque: a good chunk of the appeal, i dare say, of trb, is the ~pedigree~
Framedragger: ...and so it is that tmsr uses elliptic curve crypto in its production :)
Framedragger: (sorry, sorry.)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: there is, at this very moment, a rotting dead groundhog under asciilifeform's shed.
asciilifeform: does it follow that ' tmsr uses dead groundhogs in production ' ?
Framedragger: i'm sorry but that's false equivalence. EC crypto is used in timestamping service which is used for actual business transactions. not as trivial as dead passive animal under house
asciilifeform: the rotting beast is anything but passive from my pov.
Framedragger: does it tell you where to send money?
asciilifeform: if it were larger it would most assuredly cause me to spend considerable money to arrange its removal.
asciilifeform: but Framedragger has a larger and imho relevant point, the ecc in trb is part of the world-as-we-found-it
asciilifeform: and trb-genesis let it be CLEARLY and PERMANENTLY marked as not-child-of-mine, for each of the signatories.
asciilifeform: because unfortunately lenin was right when he wrote 'we build new world from the planks of the old shithouse we blew up, not from imported brick'
Framedragger: (yes and for that reason V is an insanely useful and (i'm coming to realize) very important tool.)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: understand, i would like to live to see the day when we use NOTHING at all that is not from the wot.
asciilifeform: not silicon, not chairs, knives, forks.
asciilifeform: but until then , need tools that let folx take MEANINGFUL responsibility, rather than volunteering at every turn to hang for things that they NEVER TOOK PART IN
asciilifeform: ( or to have to choose between this, and silence/cowardice )
asciilifeform: in this vein mircea_popescu's answer '1 man, 1000 keys' is probably the closest thing to practical solution proposed, but imho it does not eliminate the problem, it is still something that must be lived with
asciilifeform: and it is worth discussing ~how~ to best live with it.
asciilifeform: (and i will also note, mircea_popescu's method puts serious mechanical stress on a part of tmsr that is at present time not well-developed -- navigation of elaborate, deep, and TIME-VARIANT relationships between wot inhabitants)
asciilifeform: main risk becomes the one described in http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/ .
Framedragger: a timestamped and signed wot (navigable via time axis) may be one of those few technical tools within wot management which may actually be helpful :)
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu did not like idea of signed wot ratings.
asciilifeform: but as i see it, if you are going to have the 'multiple personalities' thing, you MUST have signed ratings.
mircea_popescu: there's whole discussion re that. you got teh link ?
asciilifeform: aha! i've been digging for it for 10min nao
trinque: ahaha, I was searching for it, got alf just now as first result
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576975 << possibly this☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 23:36 mircea_popescu: and for this reason ratings can't have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
mircea_popescu: this is the more recent ; there was one also illo tempore but w/e.
mircea_popescu: anyway. not that, nor this, leads to "you MUST have signed ratings"
asciilifeform: it isn't a 'you must', but rather 'you can have unsigned-ratings XOR multiple-v-personalities'
mircea_popescu: and you also don't "must have signed gossipd lines", either. there was a mega discussion re that also on gossipd thread
mircea_popescu: not so.
asciilifeform: if you try an' have both, everyone simply fragments into 1,001 'tulpas' and an unsullied and 'never wrong' ceremonial kinglet.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://akphoto2.ask.fm/8cb/997d0/d29a/4e8f/9d23/753af0de208c/original/543557.jpg
asciilifeform: while scammers try to play split-list games and unite, with sleigh of hand, their 'not been wrong yet' keys into a Great Hero
asciilifeform: *sleight
mircea_popescu: this is still the case now. and always will be.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a mechanical way out of it.
asciilifeform: there is not. but detection can be easier or harder depending on how wot operates.
asciilifeform: i see 0 reason to make it ANY harder than it has to be.
asciilifeform: i would like to see ~less~ breathing air in the world for the people who do this.
asciilifeform: not more.
mircea_popescu: your "easier" is entirely illusory. every time you try to use levers on a puddle of mud water, you get mud on face AND NAUGHT ELSE.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a mechanical process for levers and swamp water.
asciilifeform: swamps, if we must use this analogy, can be filled.
asciilifeform: (as in mr.t's slogan)
asciilifeform: filled, drained.
mircea_popescu: i understand that you see it stationary and imagine it's glass. it's not glass. it moves in response to your measures.
mircea_popescu: yes, swamps "can be filled", but i'm not ready to shoot you all yet.
asciilifeform: then ought to take an interest in instruments that distinguish, precisely whom to shoot, and when.
mircea_popescu: that's what the wot is!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607045 << yeah srsly, sucks to not be five eyes!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 11:47 trinque: dutchies just wishing they were invited to the NSA, GHQ, BND party
asciilifeform: not if all acts carrying risk can be laundered off onto an unattributable and unopposable 'tulpa'.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what some luser must be thinking to join "dutch secret services". it's like joining the new jersey tv station. dude what.
asciilifeform: ('hey that wasn't MY sub-persona, i never signed the rating')
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they can be so treated no matter what you do. any attemps you make to "make it impossible" simply break your tool.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to elaborate
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you keep trying to design-for-ai. there's no need and no call for that ; moreover no practical way to ever do it. wot permitted me to ascertain enough information to eg behead that adlai schmuck most recently. there's no way "for you to explain how i reasoned to a machine", or even in general, and that doesn't hurt or stop me. moreover if there was such a way, then he'd simply act differently next time. and ther
mircea_popescu: e WILL BE A NEXT TIME.
mircea_popescu: no matter what you do.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't do ai. i do ia.
asciilifeform: ('intelligence amplification')
mircea_popescu: yes but at a cost. and in places you're too used to paying that cost.
asciilifeform: v, for instance, is a classica intelligence amplifier. (if mircea_popescu recalls, asciilifeform resisted actually ~writing~ it, and said, approx., 'a reasonable person ought to be able to Do All Of This In His Head')
asciilifeform: *classical
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here is that there's no way to reason in the manner you expect to reason. IF anything about the wot process is opposable to anyone involved ; then the wot process becomes by that measure less useful. no change whatsoever appears in the swamp it's made to confront.
mircea_popescu: we can study contained examples if you wish, but the general principle is quite undisturbed.
asciilifeform: the reason why asciilifeform listened to mircea_popescu , and actually wrote the tool, is the very real human limitations that exist, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225522☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 13:38 mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: and with respect to this, none of us have the meatware to navigate a hypothetical #trilema where 1,000,001 tulpatrons are speaking, instead of 6 d00dz
mircea_popescu: really ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno how much of this is habit. consider for a second the case of the nickname dude, who is currently having a meltdown in my comment section on the apparent expectation that i somehow care what he said and i read the various comments as comming ~from the same one guy~. he actually thinks this ; actually expects me to allocate INDIVIDUALITY on the basis of anonymous. it's almost as if i were to wake up every morning and on
mircea_popescu: the basis of THAT decide i'm waking up in the same place.
asciilifeform: this is one of those things that looks feasible because the contemplated case is 'the same people i work with now, but in different costumes', rather than 'cacophony 50 yrs from now'
mircea_popescu: let me ask you a side question.
asciilifeform: fire away
mircea_popescu: were the girls in the school were asciilifeform went to when he was 12 ever engaged in that procedure where they call up one boy pretending they're $randomgirl who trulyloveshim for the sake of seeing wtf happens next day in school ?
asciilifeform: pretty sure that this was done.
mircea_popescu: so what 50 years from now ?
asciilifeform: it worked in the pre-mobilepnoje era.
mircea_popescu: yes, and oin the pre-phone era they used letters.
mircea_popescu: half of french classical literature is this alone.
mircea_popescu: womenz have identitty issues mkay ? it's not "future 50 years". it's been here forever ; will stay.
asciilifeform: lemme approach from slightly different angle. one of the reasons why wot works as well as it does, is a certain human weakness of malefactors, where they habitually stick to one or a very few persona, and make admissions-against-interest.
mircea_popescu: notreally, no.
mircea_popescu: the wot works entirely unrelatedly to the person examined, that's the point.
mircea_popescu: underlined as such in the wot article too. that's the important point : wot works WITHOUT the person being examined.
asciilifeform: and not only scammers. for all of the annoying habits of, e.g., adlai, i'd still much rather have 1 adlai than to have to perform the calculation of 'is this an adlai-tulpa' every time a new name appears.
mircea_popescu: but why would you care ?
mircea_popescu: i don't distinguish between eg adlai or nubbins ; i haven't allocated a handle ; they're just $dork, whatever.
asciilifeform: because if we have login for n00bz at all, that is a mental cheque that gets written and ends up cashed.
mircea_popescu: to obtain a handle one must do specific things ; if they don't, they don't. i don't give out handles like candy because why would i.
mircea_popescu: to quote celentano, "i already met enough people this month"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so. do you know the names of all the women you fucked ?
mircea_popescu: who cares.
mircea_popescu: i know names of women ; some of which i've not fucked ; but not on that basis.
Framedragger: (something tells me that mircea_popescu's latest example does not work amazingly well here)
asciilifeform: this is exactly the 'we don't need versionatron!' thread but with asciilifeform's and mircea_popescu's speaking parts reversed.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger which how ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tis not!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: argument, seems to me, is that 'keeping track of subpersonalities is free, because mircea_popescu never had problem with it, on account of not ever having to actually do much of it'
mircea_popescu: argument is "keeping track of non-wot-ids is pointless, shouldn't be done"
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: names of women you fucked. i know the names and there aren't too many of 'em. and for some strange indefensible reason i think this applies to many folx here. but this is a tangent
asciilifeform: Framedragger: use example of 'women you bought coffee from' if better fits.
Framedragger: suresure!
asciilifeform: (in usa at least they for some unknown reason have name tags attached)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger but the example shows ~shouldn't~ not ~doesn't~.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suddenly that reason not so unknown.
mircea_popescu: usg.starbucks doing its part to fight the "rapey mp coffee".
mircea_popescu: they even put the name on the cups!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik it is part of the strange 'let poor schmucks Feel Like They Have Servant for 5min' thing americans have going
mircea_popescu: that's what it pretends to be ; what it is i nfact, at least to my eyes, is more of the same usg social-democracy.
mircea_popescu: if it actually were what it pretends, they'd be topless.
mircea_popescu: ~nobody wants their name on their tits ; a degree of magnitude more than that ~nobody want the blouse off the tits.
asciilifeform: iirc there was some petroburger chain where they ~were~
mircea_popescu: i've not kept track , but anyways.
Framedragger: (in america, no-one is poor; some are millionaire entrepreneurs with current cashflow problems)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607053 << either to them or else to they who keep making these walmart cards!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 12:08 davout: "l'avenir appartient à ceux qui se lèvent tôt"
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, afaik the only people alive today with serious skill in managing a large cloud of sub-identities, are scammers. and that this is unlikely to change.
asciilifeform: and personality fragmentation is Bad For You, perhaps more so than smoking.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let me recount a different story, if you will.
asciilifeform: recount, i'll bbs, meat.
mircea_popescu acquired new $slavegirl. intelligent girl, very educable (i don't just mean in terms of training-for-slavery, a la BCT, i mean scholarily, with a native thirst for knowledge and a natural dedication to clean thinking) and altogether very pleasant. for historical reasons, unexperienced socially (twentysomething, second time she was in a bar, i took her there) and not particularily capable of talking to people.
mircea_popescu: so obviously her task at some point turned to... go out and talk to women. IN THE FUCKING STREET. she broke up in hives, she got gastritis, but my stick was firmer than the flesh and within a few short weeks retrospectively (that no doubt seemed endless then) acquired all the required skills, abilities and practices, and now can talk to random person on cue, with the best of the salesmen.
mircea_popescu: which she isn't, visibly, to me. and to her. and to no one else.
mircea_popescu: skills are skills. the expectation that one will go from craddle to grave without having to touch arbitrary class of skills "because i just don't go that way" is entirely hallucinant nonsense.
mircea_popescu: for the exact same reason classical antiquity couldn't have blind emperors ; we today can't delegate "the people stuff" to others. we also cant' delegate "the numbers stuff" to others. there's no mechanical way out of this.
mircea_popescu: yes, i'm aware palm calculators exist for a while now. they don't "fix math" for the blonde ditz.
mircea_popescu: in summa, this then is the covenant of the republic : that everything here exists to serve your needs ; and that you can't have needs that can't be.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607087 << this is actually not half-bad an idea, and it goes nicely in the direction of phf 's literate code, which i still think should be a distant, but present goal.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:02 trinque: history.txt
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607094 << this is entirely valid and utterly true. as the space of representation is so much larger than any possible inquiry (refresher http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-31#1594978 ) it then follows that plenty of shits won't be found until stepped on.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:06 asciilifeform: trinque: the real trouble comes when somebody shits and no one (including, often , the shitter) even notices until , years later, they step in it.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-31 19:29 mircea_popescu: are you familiar with the von neumann set ?
mircea_popescu: there is no good solution to this problem, but small codebases aka fit-in-head is a very strong paleative, and to my mind its chief merit comes from just this.
mircea_popescu: trusted participants is the other.
mircea_popescu: which is how you end up with an operating room : a neat place with few nooks and crannies where only surgeons (as opposed to mice ; cockroaches ; bacteria) are allowed access. as a result, no shit hiding in corners.
mircea_popescu: both because not that many corners, and not that many shitters.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a better approach to this. in particular "creating a semi-permeable membrane" is not one of them.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/se-da-o-membrana/ << in related lulz.
mircea_popescu: "Plus ca e o nesecata fantana de umor. De exemplu : Cum isi gaseste un inginer cheile de la masina ? Construieste o membrana semi-permeabila care ingaduie trecerea oricarui obiect dar impiedica trecerea cheilor de masina." eerily apt in this conversation.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607293 << from where do you get 'operating room, with surgeons but not roaches' without said membrane or equivalent ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 15:47 mircea_popescu: there isn't a better approach to this. in particular "creating a semi-permeable membrane" is not one of them.
asciilifeform: and in fact healthy man's own body is precisely a set of semipermeable surfaces.
mircea_popescu: from promise.
asciilifeform: last i saw an operating room, it was sterilized by more than mere promise.
mircea_popescu: but it was not sterilized by straining through semi-permeable membrane.
asciilifeform: (operating room is not even best example. ever been to what is in usa called a 'type 4 lab' ? the kind with air lock.)
mircea_popescu: sure ; very similar.
asciilifeform: similar except that it is concerned with egress rather than ingress.
mircea_popescu: that's kept sterile via airflow, which is to say, the continual negrating of random idiots who don't evidently have no business there. and such things.
mircea_popescu: the continual ejection of lines of code which "Who knows, maybe they're useful"
mircea_popescu: ie, dust and bacteria. out it goes.
mircea_popescu: THAT is a process that works ; an imaginary strainer is fap fodder.
asciilifeform: correct, but note, it is done here using wot mechanisms, rather than hand-cranked moderator.
asciilifeform: ~amplified~ intelligence.
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: well amplified social skills, but yes.
asciilifeform: in principle, strong d00d-with-shovel is exactly same as bulldozer. but in practice he is not, and bulldozer changed the type of construction that can be reasonably contemplated.
mircea_popescu: i'm not a luddite yo.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607096 << yes but the meaning of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607284 was precisely that we CAN enforce "keep docs and code in same place ; and keep them in step or die". at least eventually.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:07 asciilifeform: docs diverge from code routinely, and it is far from always the case that someone notices and corrects immediately.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 15:41 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607087 << this is actually not half-bad an idea, and it goes nicely in the direction of phf 's literate code, which i still think should be a distant, but present goal.
mircea_popescu: which will be an awesome gain about on par with going from shovel to hydraulic autolocomotive tools.
asciilifeform: except that it'll be no gain at all if as a result the expected material for ALL construction is granite.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607100 << this is iffy. i, for instance, would ask. i think.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:11 trinque: reactor 99947 vaporized the king upon inspection. who's asking the engineer what his rationale was?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's true that once women started shaving it "never stopped" and adult vulvas look preteen these days. there's even some eyebrow shaving and repainting. but nobody;s shaved off their eyelashes yet ; on the contrary, those are fetishized and at expense elongated, painted etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suppose it is because preteens etc. still have eyelashes
asciilifeform: there is not yet afaik a fad of removing noses, ears, either.
mircea_popescu: somehow that hair doesn't bother. but anyway. you find yourself with each foot in a different rowboat, because on one hand you don;t want everything to be high quality code ; and on the other you think shitty quality code normalizes it and begets more of the same.
mircea_popescu: well, which is it ?
asciilifeform: technological 'tower of babel' is built of many materials. has granite core, yes
asciilifeform: but also wooden ladders.
mircea_popescu: how do you know it's NOT good to have everything be made out of granite ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same way i know 'it is NOT good to have the only vehicle be antigrav'
mircea_popescu: this is not a good answer.
asciilifeform: we simply do not have the granite-world. and if we ever get it, it will be from 1,001 years of living in wooden one.
asciilifeform: and gradually replacing the wood.
mircea_popescu: since all code is code ; unlike how all materials are different atoms ; it may then perhaps follow that if you're going to code at all, best make it good.
asciilifeform: to code -- yes. but original thread concerned agricultural husbandry of old code, from heathendom.
asciilifeform: incidentally i am not seeing much uptake for the 'walking the walk' of mircea_popescu's position, so far. afaik asciilifeform is the only one currently struggling with ada, for instance.
asciilifeform: (it is quite a struggle.)
mircea_popescu: original thread was vague and ramified. i don't see what more you need than alf-fucks-goats key ; and the bugaboo of "but mp, then everyone can make random keys i won't know about" seems more like a childhood nightmare than anything.
asciilifeform: it is partly the long-term 'ecological' perspective on this practice, that bothers me; but also that pretending to be multiple people, while being one, is a fundamentally dishonest and truth-hiding act.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ben_vulpes and davout are evidently struggling with the trb ; so was mod6 before we fucked up his week with v stuff ; diana_coman is purging idiocy out of eulora and so on. plenty of people.
asciilifeform: notice, almost everyone is ultimately occupied with 'husbandry of cows'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no argument there. not like it is VERBOTEN to structure the identities in a treee etc.
mircea_popescu: the whole problem is that it's not possible to make it mandatory.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607339 << just some conceptual posturing from me, but: i maintain that it's not 'dishonest' and may in fact be a robust strategy to survive in the world. it's easy to misuse it, though.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 16:21 asciilifeform: it is partly the long-term 'ecological' perspective on this practice, that bothers me; but also that pretending to be multiple people, while being one, is a fundamentally dishonest and truth-hiding act.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my criticism was specifically that structuring them ~unopposably~ is an act of dishonesty.
asciilifeform: and dishonesty -- is always paid for, in the end.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it's an age-based thing. younguns tend to try it out because thye need to because they suck ; as they stop sucking they stop needing to and adult identity is born. nothing wrong with any part of this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but also not necessarily your concern.
mircea_popescu: most crimes actually contain their punishment. greek style.
asciilifeform: the catch is that the miscreant and the punished are often disjoint.
mircea_popescu: show me ?
asciilifeform: the bezzle is an example.
mircea_popescu: i hold the malfeasant is punished there.
mircea_popescu: allow me to expound :
mircea_popescu: romanian (at least before it was invaded and colonized by nato) culture has no concept of tort. the universal opposition to any attempt to pass the responsibility buck is "si daca-ti spunea sa sari in fintina, tu sareai ?" ie, and if he told you to jump down the well, would you have ?
mircea_popescu: this is introduced at the latest to 7yos, and it's how it is, permanently.
asciilifeform: 'mmm' is legal in ro today ?
asciilifeform: as in '90s ru
mircea_popescu: the 1996 version certainly was.
asciilifeform: i asked re today
mircea_popescu: i care about romania today in the sense you might care about the hittite empire. it sunk.
mircea_popescu: (i honestly have nfi and can't be arsed to find out)
asciilifeform: and betcha they still prosecute folx who diddle scales when selling goods by the kg, or alter petrol pump, etc
mircea_popescu: nope. there's an official scale kept by market administration in all markets
mircea_popescu: you can go have your things weighed there.
asciilifeform: without honest weights and measures, there is no market, there is (in words of spiffy mircea_popescu article!) 'put maybe-potato in this bag, get a bag of maybe-coins'
mircea_popescu: you may also file a complaint if the weighs don't match ; if they pile on the offender won't be able to hire a stall there. that's about it.
asciilifeform: in righteous olden times there'd be a hanging.
asciilifeform: pouring molten lead into mouth, optionally, also.
mircea_popescu: i don't think anyone cares about a kg of produce enough these days.
mircea_popescu: but yes, in olden days there'd be.
asciilifeform: it is the ~principle~
asciilifeform: that intentional fraud -- is punishable.
mircea_popescu: ideally trhough punishing the "victims".
asciilifeform: 'guard labour' is a tax.
asciilifeform: if i gotta bite ~every motherfucking gold coin~ , that is time that i am not doing whatever-else.
mircea_popescu: suppose you find your girl in bed with another oh nm that. suppose you send girl to market, she comes back defrauded. who do you punish, her or him ?
asciilifeform: suppose mircea_popescu catches a hood rat red-handed running off with spare dirible engine from his warehouse.
mircea_popescu shoots guard.
asciilifeform: he will shoot? or will say 'ooops, i blame myself, should have guarded better.'
asciilifeform: whom he shoots first? thief, or guard ?
mircea_popescu: i don't actually bother with the thief.
asciilifeform: if you don't pest-control, pests will control you.
mircea_popescu: thief is, as our russki friend points out, only out to do crime to us for goods he could get other place.
mircea_popescu: if we're the target rather than other place it's time to slim down the org.
asciilifeform: there's 'thief addressed to-occupant' and 'thief with your name on it'
asciilifeform: to borrow the 'bullet vs shrapnel' old saw
mircea_popescu: even so. as any half competent mobster can tell you, by the time you're targeted for theft your organsiation's been utter shit for a while.
asciilifeform: the only reasonable answer to targeted, planned, premeditated theft, is to disproportionalely punish the rogue. (as per mircea_popescu's disproportionate-punishment article)
asciilifeform: 'tis part of how you avoid being target. 'para bellum' etc.
asciilifeform: this is kindergarten material, i thought.
mircea_popescu: you're misusing terms, that's definitionally not theft.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the answer to "random hootrat" "targeted, planned, premeditating theft of $item" is to take another $item, cut hoodrat's mother's head off and stuff $item in there.
mircea_popescu: makes for excellent xmas celebrations.
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu is perfectly happy to punish those who would personally defraud ~him~
mircea_popescu: that's not fraud.
asciilifeform: but would tolerate 'gypos' in marketplace under his control ?
asciilifeform: pestilential, unpunished 'gypo' activity is how you end up with popular tyrants to begin with.
mircea_popescu: there's a strict difference between robber (who robs all comers) and invader (who robs you only).
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's also how you end up with merchant empires.
asciilifeform: robs-all-comers is vermin, as desirable as ebola virus.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the "from the sewers" spain discussion. yes, as desirable as ebola virus. keeps the
mircea_popescu: "popular" populace numbers low.
asciilifeform: recall the other article though.
asciilifeform: the one where great stink of london, and queen barfed.
asciilifeform: ecology -- is legitimately a thing (as distinct from enviro-whinery) and we all share atmosphere, etc.
mircea_popescu: which one, the one where hanbot says "anyone who could be bothered to use the wot would have known what pirate is up to ; yet none of you fucksticks did, and fuck you, now you wanna dork about the wot not working ?" ?
mircea_popescu: the information is there. daring to not use it is a crime worse than any fraud.
asciilifeform: this, yes. 'trust allah, but tie the camel'
asciilifeform: folx who will not tie the camel -- deserve no sympathy.
mircea_popescu: the pretense that "oh, i don't need the republic" or "oh, i use the tools at my leisure" or generally "oh, i'm an independent thinker in charge of my destiny" is what gets shot.
asciilifeform: you still gotta hang the rogues. they are 'hostis humani generis'.
mircea_popescu: so no, there's no sympathy for "victims". don't be a victim. if you are a victim, either fix yourself or kill yourself.
mircea_popescu: save me the trouble in either case.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform some are ; some aren't.
asciilifeform: what's the distinction?
mircea_popescu: am i going to hang someone for being hostis idiotas ?
asciilifeform: idiotas != humani
mircea_popescu: who next do i hang, whores ? for taking from fools money for that which they'd have free if they weren't fools ?
mircea_popescu: wives next, yes, because totally, if whores hang the wives hang with them.
mircea_popescu: who's left ?
asciilifeform: i don't see this fog of war.
asciilifeform: lemme ask mircea_popescu : would he classify , e.g., pirate, as 'hostis humani generis' ?
asciilifeform: if he were merely 'legitimately separating idiots from money', then why yes ?
mircea_popescu: nope
asciilifeform: so why the negrate
mircea_popescu: wait, you mean pirate the bitcoin dork or pirate the historical element ?
asciilifeform: the former
mircea_popescu: and in the former case : because I KNOW he's a scammer.
mircea_popescu: i didn't order a hit on his fucking house, mind. this isn't because i can't have random residence firebombed.
mircea_popescu: i can. don't opt to, because i don't see the merits.
asciilifeform: but if we're going with 'answer lies in the sewers', then are scammers not 'part of circle of life' and 'janitors of the forest', mopping up the weak ?
mircea_popescu: yes, but this doesn't mean we suddenly not know they're scammers.
asciilifeform: as i see it, a large part of 'why wot' is to deliberately interfere with the 'circle of life' , to deny the scammer his easy prey.
asciilifeform: just like city wall keeps out the bear.
mircea_popescu: i'm an oracle, if you wish. people can ask me questions and get answers, which conform to a specified model ; and STAY conformant in the future.
mircea_popescu: this is a kind of service. scammer does another kind of service.
mircea_popescu: traditionally these are represented with + and -.
mircea_popescu: there's not more meaning in there.
mircea_popescu: the only hostis humani generis are the anonymous usg tools. the gavin-koch-weimer-boeck-younameit.
asciilifeform: scammer does 'service' like earthquake does service.
mircea_popescu: those who would deny their identity, chiefly to themselves, those who'd take what that simon fellow calls "the bargain" for "civilisation". those are the enemy.
mircea_popescu: indiancandy isn't.
asciilifeform: did i miss a log day.. whom did indiancandy scam
mircea_popescu: nobody as far as i know.
asciilifeform: so how does the example work, plox to elaborate
mircea_popescu: whore, scammer, confused ditz, they may get in your way - but they aren't the enemy.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606942 << The dirty Kraut immigrants in the North had this convention called "housebarn"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 02:31 asciilifeform: shiva(tinyscheme) is not a wife, it is a cow. it is quite possible to have a house without a cow. if you do have a cow, it lives in separate structure, and nobody will need to be reminded that it is not a wife.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what's a housebarn
mircea_popescu: egyptians did it too.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: while we're on subj of 'gets in the way but not enemy' -- how come 'adlai attacked republic by dropping snr' but not indiancandy ? is it because the latter lays claim to tits ?
asciilifeform: what if we learn that 'she' is a d00d ? in israel no less ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Single building with house area and barn area and shared air circulation between the 2. Was all the rage in Wisconsin and Minnesota because Krauts are dirty savages.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: sounds like minor variation of historic euro norm of ' i live with my pigs '
mircea_popescu: has no "dropping snr" component.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Variation with masonry foundation
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from my perch, i see ~0 meaningful diff b/w icandy and adlai.
BingoBoingo: http://centrevillesettlement.com/lutzehb.htm
trinque: she has no pretensions to being other than tits
asciilifeform: with possible exception that one 'had to be a cow' and other 'could have not been a cow', to borrow from mircea_popescu's piece
mircea_popescu: since it's amusing in context, consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607011 <<->> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606754☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 04:49 adlai was gonna update on 'homework' but complies with sir's request
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 23:24 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how about http://trilema.com/2009/pe-scurt-despre-analiza-tranzactionala/
asciilifeform: but today -- both cow.
mircea_popescu: really, schmuck is going to foist deals on me ? in what parallel fucking universe.
asciilifeform: i did not read 'deal' in the quoted bit
trinque: asciilifeform ever work in an office with an attractive couple of office assistants or whatever?
asciilifeform: but submission, same as the chick's
asciilifeform: trinque: i've worked in all kinds of sharashkas. why?
trinque: they never actually do anything but be there female
mircea_popescu: yes, but you're also not the end all be all of dealing with idiots. the implication, evident as it may be, being that i'm his mommy and i should care about his welfare and his choice to lead with the wrong fucking thing is somehow my problem and oh aren't we all sorry that we're missing out on adlai not being dogfood.
mircea_popescu: except i'm not his mommy.
mircea_popescu: and we literally, and entirely, do not care.
mircea_popescu: i could make ten of him and i wouldn't even need women to help me.
asciilifeform: and yes incl. the kind where chick 'really wants to visit your office after hours and Learn How Robot Is Programmed' etc
trinque: sounds great
asciilifeform: trinque: i think i see your angle tho. however it dun do much outside of meatspace, imho 'radiating female' only works in meatspace.
mircea_popescu: it also has nothing whatsoever to do.
asciilifeform: it doesn't do anything through a terminal that 'eliza' could not do.
thestringpuller: trinque: most of those women end up getting pregnant and get 6 months to play mommy while getting paid.
mircea_popescu: unless you're looking to take over from them and do it in 5.5 months, what'd you expect happens.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607473 << i can see very clearly this angle, but it is only an angle that you can see ~after~ you set the Bozo Bit on somebody☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 17:00 mircea_popescu: yes, but you're also not the end all be all of dealing with idiots. the implication, evident as it may be, being that i'm his mommy and i should care about his welfare and his choice to lead with the wrong fucking thing is somehow my problem and oh aren't we all sorry that we're missing out on adlai not being dogfood.
mircea_popescu: maybe.
asciilifeform: and yes, d00d made it quite easy, by contributing 0
mircea_popescu: in honestly that bit was twinkling for a while.
asciilifeform: could-have-not-been-cow
asciilifeform: 'yer brain on dope', or who knows.
mircea_popescu: it's a shitty thing to try and sell. at least whore sells her cunt, which is pleasant. scammer sells some knowledge. it's something, not much but present.
mircea_popescu: this schmuck is literally going around trying to sell "i'm not going to hurt myself" to randos.
mircea_popescu: utter shame on his parents.
asciilifeform: it is not , at this point, even 'psychiatric' problem -- but ~veterinary~
asciilifeform: diseased beast walks around, shitting where it stands, braying
asciilifeform: there is 1 cure.
mircea_popescu does literally think very little of the two actual humans invovled in the production of this particular greasespot. i think there's little more shameful than having parented an adlai.
mircea_popescu: and i do mean that, the weirdo serbian dudes keeping rape hotels during the war were relatively preferable.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607060 << Perhaps venture into the wilds and minister to heathens?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 13:49 adlai is not a teetotaler in most fields, despite the expulpated exhortations.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607129 << this is unrelated to the discussion ; but since it's brought up this is also not possible. you can't obtain a way to re-create "rousseau's social contract" ie, agreement without the nod. that's heathendom pure and simple ; until and unless i nodded on your fucking law-tax-whatever it ain't got teeth. i don't care what you agreed with whom.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:21 asciilifeform: all i ask is that said act not require a collective head nod.
mircea_popescu: and there's no "by scratching your ass you thereby agree to..." bullshit either.
mircea_popescu: there's a very marked difference between "to signify your agreement do x" and "anyone doing x is signifiying their agreement to blabla". this outrageous confusion between the sign and the significant itself is enough to make idiots of all the fiat statists.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607147 << i would say this qualifies.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:38 trinque: depends if you consider deedbot production use
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607150 << sad but tru.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:40 Framedragger: ...and so it is that tmsr uses elliptic curve crypto in its production :)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607162 << im kinda curious if this day is actually in my lifespan. a LOT more curious than about any of the nonsense re i dunno, "cure for death".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:46 asciilifeform: Framedragger: understand, i would like to live to see the day when we use NOTHING at all that is not from the wot.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607164 << that part is not disputed.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:46 asciilifeform: but until then , need tools that let folx take MEANINGFUL responsibility, rather than volunteering at every turn to hang for things that they NEVER TOOK PART IN
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607168 << which is how everything ended up being here, through this shifting stress process. but anyway -- ancient societies had a very simple solution to the exact problem, which was the status of the alien.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:51 asciilifeform: (and i will also note, mircea_popescu's method puts serious mechanical stress on a part of tmsr that is at present time not well-developed -- navigation of elaborate, deep, and TIME-VARIANT relationships between wot inhabitants)
mircea_popescu: that's kinda where all this is going as far as i can see.
mircea_popescu: the moment has not yet exactly come, but it isn't long in the future, where random noob's best bet isn't to join here and start yakking away, but instead join some lord's castle, prove himself there, gain an ally, and then, in due time, be introduced here by that lord. if need be and circumstances merit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik this already ~happens
asciilifeform: (witness how we met , e.g., trinque )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607501 << argument was not about 'i want promisetronics but without having to get assent' but 'want less promisetronics , period'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 17:24 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607129 << this is unrelated to the discussion ; but since it's brought up this is also not possible. you can't obtain a way to re-create "rousseau's social contract" ie, agreement without the nod. that's heathendom pure and simple ; until and unless i nodded on your fucking law-tax-whatever it ain't got teeth. i don't care what you agreed with whom.
mircea_popescu: yes but
asciilifeform: but yes, the fact that asciilifeform made genesis using the recipe he gave, from vintage bitcoind, rather than pulled from own arse, is not a mechanically provable fact without witnesses.
asciilifeform: incidentally there is such a thing as a 'stone witness', if you will. e.g., i have tarballs from 1990s on cdrom.
asciilifeform: if your vtree traces pedigree to one of THESE as genesis, i or anyone else possessing such a disk, can be satisfied that it is not a modern wholesale forgery
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: (note that no other property, other than 'pre-exists valuable-bitcoin', is thereby demonstratable)
mircea_popescu: i suspect as the basis grows there's going to be a lot more such cross-verification.
asciilifeform: this is sorta why i wanted to put out trb, frozen gcc, linux, etc. on a ~pressed aluminum~ cd
mircea_popescu: we certainly must maintain pre 5 gccs
mircea_popescu: there's apparently never going to be another c++ compiler.
asciilifeform: there is also watcom
asciilifeform: but yes.
asciilifeform fond of watcom
asciilifeform: it is in many ways cleaner than gcc.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: a mainstay of msdos game industry of '90s.
asciilifeform: had excellend debugger also.
mircea_popescu: not entirely impossible that an i-gcc emerges eventually in the manner of i-b ; but i wouldn't hold breath
asciilifeform: gcc has no future, but unfortunately there is not an alternative to gnat.
asciilifeform: which relies on gcc backend.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: anyway, before there's what to bake on that cd, we gotta resolve the "tmsr package".
asciilifeform: at this point we know, i suspect, all of it.
mircea_popescu: try an enumeration as an exercise ?
asciilifeform: but it is another matter to actually walk the logs, and do the heavy lifting.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 3.x linux kernel; gcc 4.9; musltronic toolchain; emacs 24; trb; v; gpg 1.4+rngpatch+timingleakpatch .
asciilifeform: i miss any ?
mircea_popescu: gnat ?
mircea_popescu: or part of chain
asciilifeform: it lives in gcc
asciilifeform: i suppose i missed a cltron
mircea_popescu: prolly should be explicit. emacs 24 with what pile of scripts macros etc ?
asciilifeform: (sbcl ?)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: much of what emacs users use for scripts is custom, personal.
mircea_popescu: also which 3.x is a worthy question
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im not sure that's such a healthy thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't negotiable.
asciilifeform: i will sooner put on another d00d's eyeglasses than use a stock emacs.
mircea_popescu: it'd be saner to have a common trunk which people change than to have to reinvent the wheel each trime a new person fires up a new emacs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the common trunk ~is emacs per se~
asciilifeform: which is largely a wad of elisp
mircea_popescu: aite.
asciilifeform: the question of 'which 3.x' is intimately tied to the hardware gnarl
asciilifeform: fact is, 'frozen kernel' is ~guaranteed-unbootable on iron from 3-4 yrs from date of freeze.
asciilifeform: regardless of how it is done. x86 is a corrosive evil.
mircea_popescu: this is not exactly true, i'm booting 3.x on all sorts of late 1990s things
asciilifeform: backwards-yes
asciilifeform: forwards-no
asciilifeform: think about it.
mircea_popescu: this isn't so much a problem, as hardware also has no future.
asciilifeform: in practice is is a problem. because ~everybody has ~own set of ancient iron.
asciilifeform: if you add'em all up, you get a massive wad of shit.
mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied that if one keeps the named hardware ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-06#1597436 convo) or their preferred equivalents that one will have no serious problems for the foreseable future.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-06 13:28 mircea_popescu: like what ? something like amd fx 9500 is, i bet, way ahead anything apple ever put in anything they made.
mircea_popescu: ie, it'll never be the case that it makes sense to get newer. let alone that you'd want to.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was just the other day sweating, to source a multi-cpu+ecc opteron board with >1 16-lane pcie.
asciilifeform: ~none to be had for any price.
mircea_popescu: computing is a ~dead discipline in this regard.
asciilifeform: soon to be ==none.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform /me is building a new palace, bought out all the things!!11
asciilifeform: a top-notch (i.e. 1000+ usd in early 2000s) mobo lasts about 10y. i determined, experimentally.
asciilifeform: i will attempt capacitor replacement, after the new board is up
asciilifeform: but nfi if there will be result.
mircea_popescu: kinda iffy thing. i have boards still going that i bought in 2002.
asciilifeform: going 24/7/365 at 100% cpu ?
asciilifeform: i won't dispute that these exist.
asciilifeform: but they are few.
asciilifeform: there is also, somewhere in u.s. air force, a pdp-8 up continuously since 1978.
asciilifeform: but it is not typical.
asciilifeform: fact is, in the not too distant future, even the very powerful folx will have many fewer cpu cycles to play with than common lamer has today. to the extent this is any concern of mine, i would like to design in such a way that the applications that actually matter, e.g., wotronics, have the necessary cycles.
asciilifeform: (and, secondarily, that said cycles execute on honest iron and not usg-crapple et al.)
asciilifeform: it is part of why i have continued and daily interest in z80, 6502, and other 'museum pieces'
asciilifeform: these are 'kalash', they can be brought up with some patch wire, in a pinch, not even needing pcb, and exist in ~limitless junkyard supply, as does their ram and glue logic; and can be manufactured with sov-era fab tech, in turn can be re-created for less than what a dozen garbage trucks cost.
asciilifeform: (sram can even be replaced with magnetic core, which in turn can be made by gurls with sewing needles, if it must. the mig-29 flies on magnetic core. and will fly in 2050, probably also on it.)
asciilifeform: in turn it is also why i have an interest in a hypothetical nonbignumtronic (i.e. lamportronic) 'trb-i'.
asciilifeform: but this is for another thread.
asciilifeform: to briefly return to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607573 , as i was painfully rubbed into it yesterday, in own iron: the hardware follows a 'passenger pigeon' dynamic: 'today, plenty' -- 'tomorrow, plenty' ... ... 'suddenly, none'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 18:03 mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied that if one keeps the named hardware ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-06#1597436 convo) or their preferred equivalents that one will have no serious problems for the foreseable future.
asciilifeform: i do not know if this pattern is typical of exhausted nonrenewable resources, or if there even exists sufficient historic record to analyze
asciilifeform: but i ~can~ say confidently that symbolics lispms followed this curve.
asciilifeform: plenty-plenty-plenty-suddenlynone.
asciilifeform: (at one point amex co. flooded the market with surplus, and they were 'cheap enough to throw out', and then suddenly worth weight in gold)
asciilifeform: it is simply one manifestation of the 'markets are not magical' thing.
asciilifeform: who recalls when asciilifeform tried to source the once-UBIQUITOUS motorola 68k cpu ?
asciilifeform: empty shelves. (unless you count freescape corp.'s ridiculous 50bux/chip clone.)
asciilifeform: *freescale
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't think it ever was 50% cpu no. but yes continuously.
mircea_popescu: im not even sure what factor is worst for them. i think being powercycled worse than continuous use for one ; time probably worse than cpu utilization, unless poorly cooled. etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ftr mine died from cycling.
asciilifeform: powered down to clean air filters and never came back up.
mircea_popescu: yeah it's not good for em
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would you have to power it down to replace filters wtf.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: strictly speaking did not have to. but also decided to clean fans.
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: and so -- this.
mircea_popescu: i clean fans with pressured air.
asciilifeform: everyone cleans fans with air hose
asciilifeform: how else.
mircea_popescu: so then why power it down
asciilifeform: because cpu melts in 10sec if you pull off the fan ?
mircea_popescu: apply flexible tube to fan
asciilifeform: and because over-speed fan (as in , with air applied) burns the bearing in <5sec ?
mircea_popescu: 5bar, 5 seconds. done.
asciilifeform: these are $100+ liquid bearing fans.
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: i have traditional ones, doesn't bother them any.
asciilifeform: in $otherlocation i have a box with removable, pluggable fans on rails , where you can pull it straight out and immediately drop in clean one
asciilifeform: but that box is as loud as a shop vac.
asciilifeform: i would not live with it in a house.
asciilifeform: in a house one uses fans sitting on sorbothane grommets, etc.
asciilifeform: down side is -- gotta power off ~yearly, to clean.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> (at one point amex co. flooded the market with surplus, and they were 'cheap enough to throw out', and then suddenly worth weight in gold) << it's entirely what the trader lives off.
asciilifeform: aha. but in that case, no comp trader showed up, only metal recyclers.
asciilifeform: the rembrandts were burned in a stove. etc.
asciilifeform: hammer, microscope.
mircea_popescu: and whose fault is that ?
mircea_popescu: speak, ye of little resources, thinking self programmers and thinking men, who couldn't even save a few lisp machines.
asciilifeform: well we saved a few.
asciilifeform: which is more than can be said for, e.g., 'scheme79' machine.
asciilifeform: or xerox dorado.
asciilifeform: (i have not succeeded in locating a working example of xerox-interlisp lm, for sale at any price by anyone)
asciilifeform: in 10+ yrs.
asciilifeform: (since began to look)
asciilifeform: now, these were manufactured in the hundreds, rather than the thousands, so not mega-surprise.
ben_vulpes: buenos dias
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes .
ben_vulpes: top logs today
ben_vulpes: a+ historical document linked from 'days of rage': http://nymag.com/news/features/46170/#print
ben_vulpes: phf: may i have a copy of your log backups?
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, apparently the us is preparing to noriega nieto
mircea_popescu: (the current mexico president)
ben_vulpes: drugwar charges?
Framedragger: phf: if at it, may i have a copy of your logs too, please? :)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from same circus, u.s. senate is proposing to ban mr.t from revering obummer's 'ru sanctions and They Stole Election' decrees
asciilifeform: (obummer's executive decrees -- a-ok; herr tritler's reversal thereof -- OHNOEZ)
mircea_popescu: except senate can't really do much.
asciilifeform: not only the dems, tho
asciilifeform: mccain & co. joined.
mircea_popescu: doesn't matter.
asciilifeform: it's mr.t vs the ~whole machine.
mircea_popescu: well we knew that didn't we.
asciilifeform: (unsurprisingly) they are making a nixon-shaped box for him to sit down in.
mircea_popescu: eh, they spent 20 years pumping up the executive order
mircea_popescu: will be fun to watch.
ben_vulpes: what is this "nixon-shaped box"?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: by some accounts, nixon was 'boxed in', for instance cut off from the nuke chain.
mircea_popescu: i dunno how much i credit these accounts.
ben_vulpes: and i do not see this "trump vs republicans" thing. he saved the party, the old cripples are on their way out and he'll be either vice president in 8 years or speaker of the house.
asciilifeform: well... asciilifeform wasn't there, boxing nixon.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes depends on how good a job bannon does.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: who is more hated than involuntary savior.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he's hated by nobody on a stick.
mircea_popescu: mccain, seriously ? nobody cares.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah does matter quite a bit how great the great again is
mircea_popescu: myeah.
ben_vulpes: full employment is very cheap compared to bank bailouts though.
asciilifeform: the folx selling the $trillion imaginary airplane, boats, etc. -- care.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's not even that gop split up under trump shock. much worse than that : the non-trump faction took a hard look around, discovered it doesn't exist.
mircea_popescu: the mccain adlaing in the senate is entirely without teeth.
ben_vulpes: pretty much.
ben_vulpes: "wake up babe army, the wall is not a racist thing. it's the largest works program since the new deal."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but those folks are weaker than a website. 20 man firms ; and those "men" are too afraid to grab an ass in the elevator.
ben_vulpes: "do kindly look to your history books and see how the last enormous welfare program worked out for its sponsors"
mircea_popescu: worked great, what. roosevelt got like 500 terms.
ben_vulpes: exactly!
mircea_popescu: butr yes, it's always better to put the poor to work than to stroke the illusions of the rich.
mircea_popescu: anyway, let's just say that the notion that the "blue chips" are worth anything just took a serious bath.
ben_vulpes: blue collar whites want to set rebar and pour concrete while the minority groups they think themselves above mow their lawn.
mircea_popescu: the companies worth money in the future are not these.
mircea_popescu: no apple, no google. it's gonna be trump's consturction co, bannon's whatever sidescam he makes, that sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes quite
ben_vulpes: mmmmmhm.
ben_vulpes: "but why don't we spend the wall money on fixing our infrastructure?" "were you even /listening/ during the campaign? it's not an exclusive thing, he's doing both."
ben_vulpes: "where will the money come from?" "just borrow more, couldn't be easier."
mircea_popescu: what infrastructure.
mircea_popescu: unmless he's building trains he's wasting the moneyt.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as it is usa has problem even making pig iron
ben_vulpes: it's a full-employment program, the money is definitionally wasted.
asciilifeform: manhole covers are stamped 'india' where i live.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: come off it, there are myriad small casting shops here.
mircea_popescu: as the narrative goes, they choose not to run
mircea_popescu: we'll see.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: million small-everythings.
ben_vulpes: where small can be anything from 20 to 500 staff.
asciilifeform: making fighter jet parts for imaginary jet.
asciilifeform: and drywall for mcmansions.
ben_vulpes: no, casting bases for dental chairs.
ben_vulpes: this repositing every single thing that happens as a direct result of the great inca in america is downright tiring. inca gives zero shits about this corner of its empire, leaves us to fend for ourselves.
mircea_popescu: anyway. there's a bunch of moneys for the us to build nuclear reactors and oil pipeline process ; to lay train track ; some to do dumb shit like walls with mexico, hospitals, etcetera. exactly none to continue with the present "derechos" bullshit.
ben_vulpes: imperial regional offices are: intel, precision cast parts, flir and the roboflugen boeing division up the valley.
mircea_popescu: so politico being what he is, he'll do what he can. and the bureaucracy being what it is, ie a spending machine, will sit its ass on its own mouth and adapt.
mircea_popescu: should be fun to watch the leftys get caught on wrong side of history / fingers in door, but whatevers. who cares about some dumb shits anyway.
ben_vulpes: the performance-art-masquerading-as-commentary is growing shriller and less amusing by the day.
ben_vulpes: from 3 chuckles in a 3-hour rotation of minorities down to barely 1 by accounts.
mircea_popescu: myeah. no longer productive comedy mine
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: e.g., galois ! is 'fend for selves' ?!
ben_vulpes: oh yeah i forgot about them
asciilifeform: megalolpolis
trinque: are we doing the "no but really some places on the continent build things" thread again?
asciilifeform: no dispute that this particular GDR still has trabant plants.
ben_vulpes: but yes, look to the overpaid and highly visible imperial offices and not to the sheep farmers on lopez.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the sheep-herders allocate ~0 capital.
ben_vulpes: dunno about 'make', but some places cast al, fe, weld racks to rigs. saw it, drank with the people involved, don't know what you want.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: capital wielders under inca are interesting?
asciilifeform: depends -- to whom.
asciilifeform: to mircea_popescu in his martian dome -- probably not.
trinque: hell my truck came from a factory in san antonio
asciilifeform: trinque: where did the plastic dashboard come from ?
mircea_popescu: any way you turn it, it's not been long enough. us could get any item fabrication thing going tomorrow, and be good at it by 2020. the oinly thing keepign this from happening atm is the faint pretenses of kiddos who think they get to have a say in their future activity and the misguided notions of old people that somehow china eating that and the us being left to make money out of doing each other's laundry is a practicable a
mircea_popescu: pproach.
asciilifeform: betcha it is stamped 'china'
ben_vulpes: "but teh parrrts!"
mircea_popescu: the latter got beaten to shit ; and the former isn't worth the farts it's spoken with.
asciilifeform: e.g., FUCKGOATS, is technically MAEDINUSA!!1!!1!!!
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: nobody here is laboring under the illusion that any money is to be made. there are social media twits, and a small group of people trading fermented trash around.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes takes all of five minutes for money to be made. it's just a matter of how you structure things.
mircea_popescu: trump can ban all imports into the country, tomorrow. and he can stick to it, permanently.
mircea_popescu: watch how there'll suddenly be money to be made once the shock troopers are done scraping the last "university student" off the sidewalk.
ben_vulpes: i'm not holding my breath for anyone associated with the government to fix shit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where'll the missing 80% of petro come from
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shit it or do without.
mircea_popescu: what "missing".
asciilifeform: it'll be berlin, 1945.
mircea_popescu: hardly.
ben_vulpes: yeah what fucking missing, there's shittons.
trinque: dude north america has *vast* oil reserves
mircea_popescu: it would be leningrad, 1925.
mircea_popescu: very different stories.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc usa supplies ~20% of own petro.
trinque: what the fuck imaginary world is this
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and if it WERE a problem, make iraq 51st state, shoot everyone who refuses to attend sunday mass.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it does, but for the reason above.
asciilifeform: trinque knows about reserves that the prospectors don't know about ? why he is not out drilling ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: there are a zillion fracking taps the saudis 'tricked us' into putting in.
asciilifeform: (or is he..?)
mircea_popescu: random 20yo piucked off the street thinks it's his option as to whether he works oil rig or not.
asciilifeform: it's skilled labour eh, not for gulag.
mircea_popescu: oh it is.
mircea_popescu: fine, so they get skilled or they die.
mircea_popescu: once chitlin get to look into the face of their own irrelevance, things get going in a jiffy.
ben_vulpes: put ten through get one out. almost as good for the body politic as war proper.
asciilifeform: killing derps doesn't get the ruined expensive gear back.
mircea_popescu: better ; you get the upper ones out this way.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform question was "make money".
asciilifeform: gulag worx best with axe.
trinque: asciilifeform: the prospectors ~know
trinque: why do you think the EPA is being gutted as we speak?
ben_vulpes: epa was doing fuck all in the first place.
trinque: I don't like the insane asylum in dc any more than anyone else
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: was repurposed under obummer to fund climatism
ben_vulpes: stood by while the water table was ruind.
mircea_popescu: not so ; providing jobs for the new york times staff bfs.
trinque: this changes 0 in regards to what is beneath the soil
trinque: ben_vulpes: for pennsylvanians and whatnot
trinque: they're not even people
ben_vulpes: gonna hear the same wail in re the fda as well, with the same response. "they fed us meth under doctors orders. kill them all."
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes "lich saved my life!!1"
mircea_popescu: that's such an epic blasio pic
asciilifeform: usa dun really have a purge apparatus. or experience thereof.
asciilifeform: which is why bush, reagan, et al, kept the derps around.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform get out of here. everyone has ; and nothing easier.
asciilifeform: ~unscathed.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: anecdata.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. they did it because they were derps.
ben_vulpes: trinque: yeah actually that's a good one to roast liberals with.
ben_vulpes: "oh i see why you don't like the epa, they fucked up the white pennsylvanian red state people you hate so much. so it's cool that penn no longer has potable water, because they're vile trumpers, right?"
ben_vulpes: er "why you don't like the epa gutting"
trinque: I cannot see the error in that logic.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes totes.
asciilifeform: as for 'iraq as 51st state', we saw result of this attempt in 2003-present, neh..?
asciilifeform: or what, it oughta be tried with new, martian army?
asciilifeform: in place of the old.
mircea_popescu: was not attempt.,
mircea_popescu: what i said was, "make iraq 51st state, shoot everyone who refuses to attend sunday mass."
mircea_popescu: and i mean it literally. either you're in the church or in the morgue.
mircea_popescu: tear down every last mosq, and sink the bricks.
mircea_popescu: then trump can write De Belo Iraco.
asciilifeform: we can start as soon as mircea_popescu gets the landsknecht through the time machine booth
mircea_popescu: i think you deeply misrepresent just how easy sanity is.
asciilifeform: what happened to 'moribund byzantium', 'all pasture in the city walls'
asciilifeform: it ain't, apparently, 'easy'. i know of 0 historical examples of 'civilization comeback'
mircea_popescu: it won the popular vote and lost the electoral.
mircea_popescu: this wouldn't be a civilisation comeback. on the contrary, it would be controlled civilisation demolishing. in preference of the inevitable alternative.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like a self-applied russian solution.
mircea_popescu: recall, the case of "comeback" that happened in your lifetime ?
mircea_popescu: similarily, left state, purged the apparatus, came back out right ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not really clear to me , from here, that comeback is genuine. consider: where is 'elbrus'.
mircea_popescu: i just said!
asciilifeform: and why even the advertised elbrus sits on 100% taiwanese chipset.
asciilifeform: ( i was speaking of 'ru comeback ' )
asciilifeform: 'american comeback' is a lulzy thing coming from folx who do not ~explicitly~ discuss the necessary crematoria
mircea_popescu: but we did, above.
asciilifeform: we -- did.
asciilifeform: mr.t -- not afaik.
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: well... has time.
ben_vulpes: i am very short any sort of comeback.
ben_vulpes: comeback necessarily would have to entail sane monetary structure, which is even less likely than gutting the department of labor.
mircea_popescu: likely/unlikely is a decent heuristic in slow times.
mircea_popescu: in fast times, the unlikely is a good predictor.
ben_vulpes: great again full employment + ubi == currency rot
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you don't want a strong currency while industrializing.
mircea_popescu: hence the early soviet ruble / 1970s renminbi etc
mircea_popescu: japanese yen in the late 1800s
mircea_popescu: strong currency is counterproductive before the folks even have what to save.
ben_vulpes: this may be so, but getting the dollar back to 1000/btc is going to be harder with every rod of rebar.
mircea_popescu: the dollar is never again going to be anywhere near 1k / btc. that's cut and dried.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-30#1442347 << there was another, deeper thread re 'tolerance to poverty', the thing chinese have, and usa does not -- but i cannot seem to find☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-03-30 22:56 mircea_popescu: russia exists out of the tolerance to poverty of its women and the rich subsoil. not much call for the latter in the much slower economy of the future. so rather than buying bonds...
mircea_popescu: the us itself opted for it ; in preference of 4/8 years of increasingly tenous pretense to the contrary by some pantsuited clown.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't worry about it -- they had it two generations ago, and will get it again
mircea_popescu: ask an okie.
ben_vulpes: yeah kind of what i'm saying. the currency degradation is utterly irreversible, and that's the us' death sentence, no matter how great again the temporary may feel.
mircea_popescu: the louder if useless city kids don't have it, but what they have or don't have is irrelevant - anyone with a social media profile is dead as of last week
ben_vulpes: gimme that good debt, right to this clean vein.
mircea_popescu: they don't know it yet, but they're as dead as polish jews.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's not clear. maybe it finds itself a nation at the bottom of it.
mircea_popescu: evidently not everyone in there is good time sally-ing it throughout.
ben_vulpes: ferment your trash, fix your neighbors toilets, pray you can get through the long walk in the desert with friends.
trinque: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/article104509111.html
trinque: I really don't give a fuck if the outer husk becomes a nation
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607831 << well yes, it is a given that 'if everybody dies, the cockroaches/mongols/etc. will build own city, from 0'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 20:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't worry about it -- they had it two generations ago, and will get it again
trinque: but there's a kernel in there
ben_vulpes: trinque: hash oil bank when
asciilifeform: but usa, like any mega-empire, had a motivatory idiology for the rubes, and said ideology is sinking, because the necessary chumpatronic rewards are increasingly unavailable.
asciilifeform: *ideology
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude, the idiot kids over at github aren't either civilisation or america
mircea_popescu: they're nobody on a stick.
mircea_popescu: the ideology is still there, just as recoverable today as it was in lincoln's day.
ben_vulpes: trinque: that project could kick off quite the conflict if it threatens the value of paper gold significantly.
trinque: ayep
ben_vulpes: then the gamble becomes "can tejas out-shoost the feds"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the mega-q imho is 'how many days can texaslandia survive without chinese plastic shipments restocking lolmarts'
trinque: I don't think most of the continent wants to shoost tejas
ben_vulpes: trinque: recall "the most important part is being wrong together" from the manning piece?
mircea_popescu: moreover california losing about 10mn pop would be great for the planet
ben_vulpes: the oathkeepers are a notorious joke, and nobody's going to stand up to a commanding officer to defend the good people of texas, no matter how little the ordered disliked texans the day before.
trinque: same for anyone whose family moved to new england in the last 50 years
trinque: ben_vulpes: not how it would work at all
trinque: texas would wrap adjoining states in monetary tentacles over time
mircea_popescu: trinque should be interesting, esp seeing how the canabis state laws thing made it quite precedented.
trinque: liberal potheads save the day again
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i think you deeply misrepresent the rural folk.
mircea_popescu: i guarantee you eg mod6 would stand with me / bring rifle from home. he's not alone i nthe us. you are.
asciilifeform: the 'we are autarkik paradise in the making, as soon as we eject the parasitic rest-of-continent' is only slightly less laughable re tx than re ca.
trinque: ~my girlfriend~ would hand me clips
asciilifeform: there is a not an autarkik wonderland sitting inside usa.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform all nation building starts with killing the croat males and taking the females to the breeding pits.
asciilifeform: there ~are~, just as in every other part of the world, folx who can live on tree bark and make musket from old truck axle, etc.
trinque: I know right? it'd wreck vital structures in one's self-representation
asciilifeform: they are not a 'state in a state'
mircea_popescu: this is what a nation is. laugh if you will, but it won't do anything.
mircea_popescu: and the alternative here, ie, "federation", as in weimar republic exacrtly is strictly non workable because endothermic. and there's no heat to be had. not no mo.
trinque: maybe that passed too quietly; the whole middle of the country can shoot, including the women
mircea_popescu: so... nation building seems likely altogether.
mircea_popescu: trinque more importantly : would. gladly.
asciilifeform: trinque: ~everybody in usa is a passable shot. so far dun seem to have prevented washington, lincoln, fdr, et al.
mircea_popescu: lincold got shot.
asciilifeform: not in time.
mircea_popescu: well this can always be said eh.
mircea_popescu: if they shoot clinton now it'd not be in time either. in time for what.
trinque: asciilifeform: I would say my view of former USSR is as cartoonish as your present view of certain parts of north america you apparently haven't spent time in
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: misrepresent rural folks working in us mil?
mircea_popescu: in general.
asciilifeform: e.g., bush, created dhs/gestapo unmolested, shots fired against same: 0 (afaik)
mircea_popescu: there isn't going to be a "us mil" if things fall apart. there wasn't a soviet one either.
trinque: thinking otherwise is *their* "they would never" propaganda
ben_vulpes: you're conflating "things fall apart" with "texas threatens goldman sachs' control of paper gold price"
trinque: goldman just moves here
mircea_popescu: i do. because it's the same thing.
trinque: see: exxon mobil
mircea_popescu: if the negotiations can't proceed, the thing fell apart.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: in re china embargo, that'd be a tidy provocation for cn to demonstrate how easily the us fleet is shredded.
mircea_popescu: if they can proceed, see trinque above.
asciilifeform: trinque: granted, i have not yet been to all parts of usa.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes china isn't going to fight embargo.
ben_vulpes: long shot, sure.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: wasn't re embargo, but re ease of subjugating ~any part of usa simply by cutting off shipments of imported cheapolade to it.
trinque: the parts that ship their groceries in, sure.
asciilifeform: where groceries are grown -- imported agri-machine parts, petrol.
mircea_popescu: not at all. look at the incentive structure. for one thing, they knew the ride isn't going forever so it's planned. for the other, a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607386 is long overdue by now☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 16:34 mircea_popescu: if we're the target rather than other place it's time to slim down the org.
trinque: asciilifeform: heh I've got plenty of that too!
mircea_popescu: they'll just use the opportunity to shoot some of their own idiots and clamp down.
asciilifeform: trinque: folks who 'i've got plenty' end up raided by neighbours; spend time manning machine gun instead of plowing
asciilifeform: result: 1945
trinque: some people made out great in '45. it all depends
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform absolutely not. it's immensely morep roductive to produce than to raid.
asciilifeform: ftr it is monumentally bad idea to advertise one's 'i've got plenty' (we had an old thread re subj)
ben_vulpes: here's the spectre of atomized americans again.
trinque: I was referring to the state
trinque: whole port of houston is outfitted to refine and ship
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha. say 'i have a buried container of XYZ' and folx write down your coords.
trinque: that's not going away if I start speaking spanish in 30yrs
ben_vulpes: so don't. fix their cars instead.
asciilifeform: trinque: ask the syrians, or iraqis, how profitable is refinery when there is measurable chance of it eating a thermite grenade on particular day
asciilifeform: civilization is fragile.
mircea_popescu: this is entirely not how it works.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'fix their cars' is more viable.
mircea_popescu: "civilization is fragile" is the excuse of the lazy.
ben_vulpes: don't bury a container of xyz much less tell anyone about it. be indispensable to the people who feed you.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: undisputable algo.
ben_vulpes: "yeah who knows he probably has a container of servers on his land somewhere, but he also keeps the entire region connected to the bitcoin net so anyone who fucks with him fucks with the whole valley"
trinque: comparing houston to anywhere in iraq is insane
asciilifeform: trinque: as soon as plug is pulled, all of usa is iraq.
trinque: moreover anyone who would want to take houston and destroyed it is an ~idiot~
asciilifeform: is there a shortage of idiots where trinque lives today ?
trinque: man you'd have no idea
mircea_popescu: civilisation = "idiot in power" IS fragile.
mircea_popescu: that part won't last.
mircea_popescu: nor has it anything to do with civilisation in any sense.
mircea_popescu: civilisation isn't when the blind can drive and the deaf can hear.
asciilifeform: expensive, breakable machinery in a geographic concentration, that is orders of magnitude easier to destroy than to rebuild -- is still a thing.
asciilifeform: whether you are under stalin, or fdr, or mao, whoever.
mircea_popescu: sure, but this is a minor facet of a complex gem.
asciilifeform: it roughly == 'civilization'.
mircea_popescu: cunt, inviting and self-lubricating, concentrated in cramped boring spaces is easier to fuck than anything
mircea_popescu: so how much office fucking is going on ?
asciilifeform: whereas you could not burn ulan batur in 1700s, what, they just gotta make new yurts.
mircea_popescu: people aren't actually your model of people.
asciilifeform: i should hope not.
mircea_popescu: the burning of ub is significant culturally. they won't rebuild it because TO THEM those aren't just some shitty yurts.
mircea_popescu: which is how kiev rus ended
mircea_popescu: "big whoop, could have reconstructed in half a summer"
mircea_popescu: "yes. but didn't."
asciilifeform: it ended?! i missed the memo...
asciilifeform: moved.
mircea_popescu: well yeah, muscovy right exactly.
trinque: I spent 5 years in total in Portland, in two tours.
trinque: there's a reason I moved home, and why Portland ~never~ became home.
trinque: the government will go; there will be people here still that are people
trinque: there will however be a lot of californians to deport
asciilifeform: trinque: i have not been there. i associate it mentally with galois corp., the outfit to which usg.nsa subcontracts a good chunk of critical dev work
asciilifeform: just like , e.g., seattle, is microshit
mircea_popescu: that's kinda silly.
asciilifeform: and sf is google, cupertino - crapple.
mircea_popescu: seattle is microsoft, but texas is roughly speaking all of new england
asciilifeform: new england is where they keep academitards; and lockheed.
mircea_popescu: sf is also much larger than.
asciilifeform: what's in sf other than sv/pg bubbletrons?
mircea_popescu: actually more academitards than in boston
asciilifeform: (and their associated support machinery -- whores, drivers, et al)
ben_vulpes: galois corp doesn't have enough butts on staff to have a good chunk of anything outsourced to it
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: megabux are not allotted by 'buttcount', you know this.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://mta.openssl.org/pipermail/openssl-announce/2017-January/000094.html
asciilifeform: 'There is a carry propagating bug in the x86_64 Montgomery squaring procedure. No EC algorithms are affected. Analysis suggests that attacks against RSA and DSA as a result of this defect would be very difficult to perform and are not believed likely. Attacks against DH are considered just feasible (although very difficult) because...
asciilifeform: '
asciilifeform: hilarious.
asciilifeform: !~later tell ben_vulpes plox to enlighten me, a poor sinner, why did crapple break the HOME and END keys ? what did they ever do to'em ?
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ' The amount of resources required for such an attack would be very significant and likely only accessible to a limited number of attackers.' << lel
asciilifeform: as if anyone gave half a shit about any attacker but the One.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, other crappletronicists : also lulzy is that dialog boxes in recent crapple os are no longer TAB-navigable
asciilifeform: did somebody cancel the clinton-era invalid 'accessibility' law while i slept in my cave..?
asciilifeform: what if i were Officially Sad and typed with my arse, and have no mouse. what then.
asciilifeform: in related lulz, https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/01/26/community-health-initiative-grant/
asciilifeform: 'Today, the Wikimedia Foundation announced the launch of a community health initiative to address harassment and toxic behavior on Wikipedia, with initial funding of US$500,000 from the Craig Newmark Foundation and craigslist Charitable Fund. The two seed grants, each US$250,000, will support the development of tools for volunteer editors and staff to reduce harassment on Wikipedia and block
asciilifeform: harassers.'
asciilifeform: 'Let us hope this gives the WF the resorces it needs to complete the Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces which is not yet ready for the Community to vote on after having been suggested at Wikimania 2015'
BingoBoingo: Awe, I thought by "community health" they were going to unveil WikiBamaCare!
asciilifeform: entirely unrelatedly to recent threads: anybody here ever experiment with 'toslink' ?
asciilifeform: it is an ancient (iirc 1980) and cheapo (plentiful, pre-crimped fibers in various lengths , for pennies) cable standard, at one point was used for high-end speakers
asciilifeform: imho could easily live a new life as non-radiating ('tempest') connector between crypto gear.
asciilifeform: 0 electrical conduction.
asciilifeform: and the transceivers are still made by toshiba and quite well-built (conductive plastic shield, for instance.)
asciilifeform: a few $ each.
asciilifeform: now in some cheap gear there IS light leakage at the connector. but nothing black varnish wouldn't solve.
asciilifeform: it is MOST peculiar that -- afaik -- NOWHERE can you buy a rs232-to-toslink converter.
asciilifeform: (rs232 to costly glass fiber IS available, for many hundreds of usd AT EACH PLUG END)
asciilifeform: usg proclaimed, Thou Shalt Radiate For Us
asciilifeform: who refused -- i presume -- Had Problems.
asciilifeform: there is 0 reason why the cable to your lcd is not a fiber.
asciilifeform: other than this.
asciilifeform: (copper wire is ~orders of magnitude~ costlier than even the finest glass fiber.)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607967 << bullshit. of course they are.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 22:42 asciilifeform: 'There is a carry propagating bug in the x86_64 Montgomery squaring procedure. No EC algorithms are affected. Analysis suggests that attacks against RSA and DSA as a result of this defect would be very difficult to perform and are not believed likely. Attacks against DH are considered just feasible (although very difficult) because...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they aint even tryin' any moar
asciilifeform: (to be believeable.)
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607982 << aye. great connectors.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 23:08 asciilifeform: entirely unrelatedly to recent threads: anybody here ever experiment with 'toslink' ?
asciilifeform: i will add, it is more interesting than it seems, because optical interconnect would make shielding, e.g., keyboards, ~meaningful~
asciilifeform: instead of wankage.
asciilifeform: i actually painted my 'model f' with conductive paint, 5 coats. it still radiates, from the cable.
asciilifeform: because nobody cancelled green's theorem.
mircea_popescu: aha. cable generally most antenna-y part anyway
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607992 << i guess we'll be finding out in short order. converter easy to make.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 23:15 asciilifeform: who refused -- i presume -- Had Problems.
asciilifeform: https://opencores.org/project,uart_fiber << published schematics.