log
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mircea_popescu: how's trix
mod6: good!
asciilifeform remembers this comic
asciilifeform: 'At the appointed time, Our Benevolent Corporate Patriarchs would "lift the curtains" and invite us all into the wondrous Future they'd made ready for us. We'd all be welcome; the Future, by its very nature, was cheerful and inclusive. In the meantime, while they were getting it all ready, the corporations would allow us to experience the Future in short, controlled bursts, such as the World's Fair Expo, or Disney World's Tomorrowlan
asciilifeform: d.'
mircea_popescu: entitlowank. somehow it wasn't so offensive in the 90s
asciilifeform: because it wasn't an illusion only lived by the wankers. but, to some extent i suspect by everyone, this notion that 'there's enough sunlight'
asciilifeform: 'live an' let live' etc
mircea_popescu: no. i recall the faggots, not yet VERY overweight, going to the things that meanwhile got captured by apple, much like coca-cola captured xmas
mircea_popescu: "the so and so fair!" cars, gadgets, whatever.
mircea_popescu: they looked ridiculous, yes, but they were not yet offensive.
asciilifeform: did seem like harmless nonsense neh
mircea_popescu: tho i harbored no notion of their presence being acceptable at my table.
mircea_popescu: yup. quite exactly.
asciilifeform: you wouldn't invite a walrus to your table either ( other than perhaps as main course )
asciilifeform: but dun feel actively disgusted by the fact that, over there up north, there he is.
mircea_popescu: i suppose the first time black fucktoy whispers nonsense in the bedroom it's rather condiment than a reason to flay her kind alive.
mircea_popescu: anyway. they DID have this glare in eye liek exactly as described. as if they believed celestial mom and dad are preparing the feasrt for them, and they best but fidgetingly wait.
asciilifeform: the feast indeed was in the works. but the dishes not quite what the feasters imagine, no.
mircea_popescu: i very much doubt anyone at any level had any plans besides "paradise begins once we outlive the soviets"
asciilifeform: teenagers ( as in subj of comic ) dun have plans.
asciilifeform: ( they may have hallucinations of future but that's about it )
mircea_popescu: i meant anyone. reagan. name it.
asciilifeform: reagan et al planned for exactly what they got : an extra ~three decades of Moar Time from the reaper
asciilifeform: powered by battery charged by stalin
mircea_popescu: i wonder what batteries we're charging.
asciilifeform: it is not given to know.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-19#1686933 << when phf first described subj, asciilifeform thought 'what if i saw it then, would it have made sense, appealed?' but now i know -- no☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-19 23:06 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680305 << by the way the first three issues of mondo are on archive.org https://archive.org/details/Mondo.2000.Issue.01.1989, https://archive.org/details/Mondo.2000.Issue.02.1990 and https://archive.org/details/Mondo.2000.Issue.03.1991
mircea_popescu: kinda hard to know such
asciilifeform: it's shannonized rubbish
asciilifeform: would not have made any moar sense than mormon bible
asciilifeform: 1989 issue, p.25, ad: 'Cray on a chip. ... The computing power of a Cray supercomputer will be accessible to PC owners by the end of this year thanks to the Intel i860 Megaprocessor. ...'
asciilifeform: almost beggars belief that intel paid to advertise in this rag
mircea_popescu: why ?
asciilifeform: for one thing, ~all of the other ads, are for witchcraft ( magical dream enhancement pills etc )
asciilifeform: but doubly funny considering what became of i860
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: subj was the itanic before the itanic.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in made-for-alf faces, http://68.media.tumblr.com/a1eb373b2c4340af35a55265cda4615d/tumblr_ogcswh8Dge1s3l9yao1_1280.png
asciilifeform: lol!
shinohai: Don't like the current face? Just airbrush another on!
mircea_popescu: free face download-tones.
asciilifeform: lol rms interview on p. 94 (1989)
asciilifeform: d00d has talent for appearing in worst possible venue
mircea_popescu: he just goes where invited.
asciilifeform: y'know, it is possible to NOT go.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't that be racist ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was at one time invited to... microshit campus, to give a talk ( about what? never specified )
asciilifeform: stayed home.
mircea_popescu: it'd have been great for your personal brand!!
mircea_popescu: anyway, they never specify because they never give a shit. you're generally supposed to have a new book you're trying to promote or such.
asciilifeform: prostitution makes sense. sucking for free -- does not
mircea_popescu: prostitution wasn't on the table. more like marriage.\
mircea_popescu: you know all tjhe pretense of superiority of "honest" women always amused me. their pretense goes, that they could whore at any time, opt not to. in reality, whores could marry at any time, opt not to.
ben_vulpes: in other woman stories, the wasps chewed a hole through the ceiling into the nursery last night
mircea_popescu: left with baby ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the notion was, 'yes you can marry but not marry-without-having-been-whore'
ben_vulpes: $girl handled whole thing from duct taping hole shut to bitching out landlord to scheduling exterminators and arranging for bill to arrive at landlord's place
mircea_popescu: apparently now can marry even witouit having been woman.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why is this landlord's fault ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: now take a minute to clench your teeth and remember that ddt was once sold, fiddycents a pound, in corner store.
ben_vulpes: well, 'bitching out' perhaps too strong. "you're going to do something right RIGHT?" "uh well yes we should do something!"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wouldn't put it in the house.
asciilifeform: wholly nonpoisonous to people
asciilifeform: unlike organophosphates
mircea_popescu: lol what ?
asciilifeform: ddt.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: makes my lips numb, i don't really want it in the house.
mircea_popescu: ddt is rather toxic ; random other examples notwithstanding.
asciilifeform: i'd much rather eat it, than anything sold nao
asciilifeform: and ~unbeatable on target species.
mircea_popescu: this is alltogether dubious.
mircea_popescu: anyway.
shinohai: Otherwise USG wouldn't be payong benefits to all these peeps that developed cancer from Agent Orange in Vietnam
asciilifeform: removal of ddt was one of the original triumphs of rampant envirowhinery.
ben_vulpes: much less the nursery lol, i am old and nigh to my grave and so spray liberally about myself. but the wee ones? i'm nottabout to pump the kid full of chemicals when i go so far the fuck out of my way to keep them out of his life in the first place.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform while that is true, it's also not a proof ddt is safe. it's not particularly safe.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is mistake to compare to thin air and distilled water. compare to, e.g., mosquito's malaria, wasp stings.
mircea_popescu: wasp stings are actually a health benefit, within bounds.
mircea_popescu: compared to malaria even cesium comes out smelling pretty good
asciilifeform: fact : the replacements moar poisonous to mammal.
asciilifeform: any an' all of'em
ben_vulpes: subject of mosquitos, BingoBoingo have y'ever fucked with 'octenol'?
asciilifeform: just as the replacement freons. because it wasn't about toxicity.
mircea_popescu: depenmds what you replace it with. the only time i actually used something, i boiled tobacco.
mircea_popescu: not more toxic.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: may as well compare to stamping bug with boot
mircea_popescu: his situation is of this nature!
asciilifeform: duct tape is not mega-obstacle for wasp.
asciilifeform: ( or anything else that happily eats through drywall )
mircea_popescu: if its a paper wasp colony, destroing the nest is usually enough.
asciilifeform: and what do you suppose ben_vulpes will destroy it with
mircea_popescu: maybe dump some copper sulphate or whatever.
asciilifeform: probably not flamethrower.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'tis only a stopgap while i deploy rentier's capital
mircea_popescu: alcohol.
mircea_popescu: i have instructional set of pics on trilema even
mircea_popescu: with the wasps laid out after
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2011/viesparium/ << there.
asciilifeform: had one of these here
asciilifeform: some beast... ate it
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: raccoon, i think.
mircea_popescu: sounds about right for a raccoon actually.
asciilifeform: larvae are delish
mircea_popescu: anyway. straight alcohol, like the 99 proof stuff for making at home liqueur. fire hazard, but otherwise repellent and killer of bugs.
asciilifeform: lol i bet petrol worx just as well
mircea_popescu: nah, leaves grease spot, stinks worse.
asciilifeform: i'd still rather not pump it into the space b/w (hollow, ustard-built) walls.
mircea_popescu: this is gone ~same day.
mircea_popescu: my lifestyle solutions assume brick walls.
asciilifeform: i'm almost surprised they don't assume orbit
asciilifeform: 'wasps? no prob, open the airlock a bit'
mircea_popescu: !!up carlos222
deedbot: carlos222 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: how am i gonna get a wasp nest in orbit.
mircea_popescu: space wasps sound fucking scary ftr.
asciilifeform: separate q !
asciilifeform: re space wasps << mircea_popescu: ever see 'Les Maîtres du temps' (animated) ?
asciilifeform: 1982
mircea_popescu: did not
asciilifeform saw as a kid
asciilifeform: recommended
asciilifeform: complete with wasp
mircea_popescu: goes on list\
mircea_popescu: (o look, even with inept 90s "web drm" technologees!) http://www.electricsheepcomix.com/almostguy/images/vansex_color.gif << such an inconvenient fuck position. you really gotta be a virgin to think this is where it's at.
mircea_popescu: aaaahahahaha o brother. "postmodern film/video theory & crit with an emphasis on phenomenology" ? reheheheally.
mircea_popescu: o look, he misspells piracetam
mod6: <+asciilifeform> removal of ddt was one of the original triumphs of rampant envirowhinery. << "it softens up the eagle eggs!!1"
mircea_popescu: and a little teratogenic.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the problem with ddt was bioaccumulation. it was the original spark for a lot of the current understanding of "why it is bad to eat agroindustrial shit". ddt is weakly toxic, but it and metabolites accumulate, get stored in fat, etcetera.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> no. i recall the faggots, not yet VERY overweight, going to the things that meanwhile got captured by apple, much like coca-cola captured xmas << In elementry school historical context for the then present was established to be "on the verge of paradise, if only we stop littering"
mircea_popescu: the other half of it being that it is very toxic to fish ; back then people still had this strange notion that oceans will continue populated in the indefinite future.
mircea_popescu: this heresy has meanwhile been renounced in all but open admission.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'd much rather eat it, than anything sold nao << Any more the only things labeled for indoor use are permethrins
mod6: i suppose the only non-toxic way to get rid of the nearby mosquitoes is to buy up all the surrounding properties and then take a flame thrower to the lawns.
mircea_popescu: actually, sterile males.
mircea_popescu: just like irl.
mod6: lol, werd.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm not convinced that cumulative ( and yes -- mega-seekrit, it is ) damage to nervous system from organophosphates, beats ddt
BingoBoingo: Mosquitoes are outdoor problem so you get to use BTi, which as complex protein is harmless unless immune system is bored and decides to bake an allergy
asciilifeform: or that it had anything to do with the scarcity of oceanic edibles ( we -- ate them )
mircea_popescu: well, we ate them, we fukushima'd them, for a while we also ddt'd them. we still plastic slush them, it's a large ocean.
asciilifeform: fukushima does 0 on the timescale a fish lives on.
mircea_popescu: and i'm not discussing other items. the thesis was this one, not "this one compared to arbitrary others"
mircea_popescu: this is not terribly true, sadly.
BingoBoingo: Scarcity of oceanic edibles is likely still more synthetic girly hormones getting pissed out unmetabolized and Seaciety suffering pantsuit
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo but right of choice!
BingoBoingo: "Sea People + Semen = Seaciety" - Eric Cartman
trinque: they're all going in; what's this "the one thing they don't want you to know about dead fish"
trinque: can be pantsuit-piss, fukushima, corexit, "fertilizer", etc
trinque: one thing in common is that nobody involved had any idea what they were doing
mircea_popescu: in the case of ddt, they went to the trouble to stop.
asciilifeform: the stopping had far moar to do with ustard pro concerntrolls than toxicology.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: i'm not convinced that cumulative ( and yes -- mega-seekrit, it is ) damage to nervous system from organophosphates, beats ddt << Where do you live that wealth of organophosphates are still available with indoor labeling? Around here store shelves have Malathion - outdoors, Carbaryl - outdoors, and Dichlorvos - unoccupied enclosed spaces and bagged bedding in war on bedbugs
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: they are 'available' in whole usa, stuck to fruits, vegetables, sprayed into lawns etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik the thing was, much like "clean engine exhaust", entirely euro-nonsense.
asciilifeform: !~google silent spring
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Silent Spring - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Spring>; Rachel Carson, Silent Spring: <http://www.rachelcarson.org/SilentSpring.aspx>; Silent Spring : Rachel Carson, Linda Lear, Edward O. Wilson ...: <https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Spring-Rachel-Carson/dp/0618249060>
trinque: should stop the mass production of food instead : solved.
mircea_popescu: is the next proposition going to be "michael moore matters" ?
mircea_popescu: o look, wikipedia manages a very uscentric view of things and items lol. mk.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: And exposed to oxygen and sunlight they survive how long? Proximity to factory would be bigger concern than proximity to deployment.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: usa was at its economic peak ; usa banned -- others copy.
trinque: the whole thing is based upon "mass produced idiot should be fed, gonna have to mass produce whatever 3 crops and feed them their derpmeal"
trinque: usg pours subsidies into it
mircea_popescu: not really my recollection.
mircea_popescu: ddt is entirely euro item. invented by swiss, used to clear europe of eg malaria. euros changed their mind in the 60s
mircea_popescu: ustards -- copied.
trinque: was being used in agriculture, which I'd wager is where most of the bulk of what ended up in the ocean originated
mircea_popescu: (and ftr, the usians had been whining about it just about since ww2. rando with a "book" on the topic is about as relevant as pink.)
mircea_popescu: trinque ironically, most of what ended up in the ocean was dumoped there by us army trying to replicate successful european usage.
mircea_popescu: arguably won a few battles in south pacific theatre.
mircea_popescu: but ftr -- first that banned it was hungary ; and generally the warsaw pact. not teh us.
asciilifeform: was used in su almost to last days
mircea_popescu: euro side of warsaw pact.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'll rack the "us--major player in ddt history" up there with "apple could buy russia" and all other self-referential wank.
mircea_popescu: "and this is how my grandfather built brighton"
BingoBoingo: US was definitely big user though, river valleys in Mid west all malarial north to Chicago until the chemming
mircea_popescu: sure.
BingoBoingo: Now we just have loser non-threatening beta mosquitos
mircea_popescu: cheap to make, pretty much everyone with a chem plant made some. which is how the soviets ended up using it.
mircea_popescu: (at the time, soviet industry more or less indian industry today)
trinque: guess I'm wrong about the proportions of ddt use re: ag. I have counted mass-production of The American Dream among the place's sins.
mircea_popescu: "I'm now an HTML coder at a startup in San Francisco. The &ldquo;World Wide Web&rdquo; has enabled me to crawl out of my debt-hole and bootstrap myself into the lower middle class. For the first time in my adult life, I can afford to <b>eat</b> in restaurants where I don't<b> work.</b" << if anyone's curious or keeping score, THIS is what impels all the dizzy dorks of today. their very own VHS tapes, if you will.
trinque: gotta have... corn! as far as the eye can see
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: written 1998 iirc
mircea_popescu: trinque the picture of sad yet resplendent idiocy over time comes into much better focus if one comes to term with the saddest fact of all : at every juncture and throughout, everyone really meant well.
trinque: just make the HTML coders all grow their own damn food, keep them occupied. not as "envirowhiner" but "hands full, own life in them"
mircea_popescu: twasn't, per se, "gotta have... corn! as far as the eye can see" in any way or in any sense other than the 1950s romanians being impressed with the ro commies "a LINE OF TRACTORS! 100 deep!!!"
trinque: ah it's your towards purpose thing, of course.
trinque: "yes corn, BUT THEN!"
mircea_popescu: it was a great accomplishment for a bunch of people who had a very direct experience of the hardness of soil, worked with hand-made tools pulled by sick horses and pregnant wives -- and i mean this literally.
mircea_popescu: the machines ? good god, they could forgive anything.
mircea_popescu: people today have very litle mental adherence to that ancient "nothing's heavier than earth" thing. kinda why making chicks mudfight is good for their brainbox.
mod6: heh "HTML coder"
mircea_popescu: "html trier-and-errorer" doesn't have the same ring to it.
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/07/19/this-is-a-story/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - This is a story.
mircea_popescu: and in other best looks, http://68.media.tumblr.com/f87af7e55bf9a8ccd4e784ac79f38a38/tumblr_n6i7j3LGrJ1stzc8to1_1280.jpg
BingoBoingo: Definitely an alf face
jurov: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/nist-randomness-beacon "NIST is implementing a source of public randomness."
jurov: they took djb's joke seriously
jurov: systemd on boot doing GET requests there in 3..2..1
asciilifeform: jurov: next, clearly, a usgtronic, 'responsible-disclosing' phuctor
asciilifeform is mildly surprised that there isn't, as of yet, such a thing
asciilifeform: ( not counting the 2013 derpitude where they published 0 anythings )
mod6: bitbet is back? thought that guy vaporized?
asciilifeform: mod6: evidently he operates it nanotube-style
asciilifeform: ( i.e. when he feels like it )
mod6: wtf
asciilifeform: lol, nao with ssl!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-19#1686912 << btw pwnat no longer works ~anywhere. i tried.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-19 21:30 asciilifeform: in other olds, filed under ucilogy, http://samy.pl/pwnat
asciilifeform: evidently 'fixed', in backbone.
asciilifeform: drilling holes in NAT is - apparently -- an open problem again.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz : NAT is why there was never a fully 'p2p' w4r3ztron )
asciilifeform: it is also a problem pertinent to, e.g., mircea_popescu's 'uci' and for that matter all botnet
asciilifeform: the need to use un-NATed boxes as proxies, so that NATed boxes can speak with one another, creates star topologies
asciilifeform: which makes the whole thing quite vulnerable.
asciilifeform: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5128#section-3 << basic likbez.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: blackzilla is enjoying the seasonal weather more than i'm enjoying the seasonal smoke. being downwind of the massive bc fires isn't doing wonders for the ol' respiratory tract. (waking up coughing, etc.) . needless to say i've a newfound appreciation for the sorry denizens of chinese mega-cities. it's one of those "you never know what you've got until it's gone" (tm) things
pete_dushenski: and hello #t !
asciilifeform: ohai pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: how goes alf ?
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, i noticed pete_dushenski had a piece re israel -- were you awake for the hagana thread ?
pete_dushenski: i have several such pieces on teh zion, neh ?
pete_dushenski: !#s hagana
a111: 2 results for "hagana", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=hagana
pete_dushenski: looks like this one ? http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-09#1268888☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-09-09 22:08 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: 'hagana' et al set the gold standard for blowing up brits, aha
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-12#1669363 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-13#1669495 , possibly elsewhere☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-12 23:16 asciilifeform: ^ 'altalena affair' resulted in the switcheroo where the upstanding folx ( irgun et al, who held the position 'rm -rf britain' , were replaced by the internationalkomyooniti obedient muppet circus who ended up 'recognized' by said komyooniti as 'israel'
a111: Logged on 2017-06-13 14:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very funny that jew thing you dug out. literally, the ENTIRE argument is "hey, let us scam you, because that's what goverments do, and if the goyim see us scamming you they'll believe w r government".
asciilifeform: tldr : eretz israel (tm)(r) got gavincoined early on.
asciilifeform: successfully.
pete_dushenski: aha, i recall that thread well
asciilifeform: aite.
asciilifeform: picture, the original was something vaguely tmsr-flavoured. replaced -- with the familiar socialists and misc. quislings
asciilifeform: ( who first 'peace with british', despite the british being the folx nailing the door of nazi europe shut; afterwards -- 'peace with arab' )
pete_dushenski: not totally sure i buy the thesis but i can see where it comes from. at the very least current-day .co.il has 'chechens' to actively oppress, unlike us which just beats the piss out of itself.
shinohai: My favorite Maskil, pete_dushenski .... how goes?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the moar i dig, the moar i buy the thesis
pete_dushenski: heh no complaints shinohai , and yourself ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: currently hitting language barrier tho, gotta strengthen my .il-foo
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: alphabet is only 22-characters, it's doable
asciilifeform: lol
shinohai: Good here, thanks. Up to my eyebrows in home projects.
pete_dushenski: or maybe translation is a project for otherwise loose cannons (eg. adlai )
pete_dushenski: shinohai: renos ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: relying on translators suxx. you oughta know that.
pete_dushenski: ofc, but only 24 hours in a day
shinohai: More like reinas around here ;)
pete_dushenski: haha
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: i'm more inclined to liken the 'new' .il to that of 'new' china : sucks up resources of imploding empire for as long as the going is good all while increasing self-sustainability and military capability. israel might be socialist but they're nowhere near as soft-bodied as the decaying west. closer to .su-.cn hybrid than .su-.us hybrid.
pete_dushenski: lol gotta love that bitbet is back... o brother what a gongshow.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: modern-day .il is a parasitic rider on usg -- and not merely in the well-known 'free money' sense, but also in that the ~only exports are 'intellectual property' racket, which rides on usg's patent enforcement shakedown
pete_dushenski: you think anyone takes usg's ip racket seriously anymore ? this isn't then 1960s
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: witness, usa and its nato colonies still pay sticker price for .il pharma
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680613 << i undertook 'yeshiva' which didn't explicitly involve log highlighting and dissection even if it sometimes turned out that way. i should actually make a separate category on the ol' blog for #t logs levitan'd☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 03:18 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a 'major life and times of the l0g' thing. what became of this ?
asciilifeform: what in this case means yeshiva if not 'log highlighting and dissection' , out of curiosity ?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: and ? what does this prove other than that girl playing house knocks on wall of cardboard box before entering ?
pete_dushenski: 'yeshiva' needn't be as public as i made it is all
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the pharma thing is simply another way of funneling payola, is all
pete_dushenski: then again the alternative to public yeshiva is 'lurker' than somehow, someway never seems to mature into full blown adulthood.
asciilifeform: ( usg uses the 'crack whore' business model with the israelis. send payola, but also keep'em from actually solving - via proper genocide + conquest of moar desirable real estate -- the problem that requires the infinite payola to begin with )
asciilifeform: why to do this -- originally was simply to preserve british empire. later, to keep the fire burning, so that nothing fit to challenge the reich is born from the ash.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: no argument that payola is funneled, but cui bono ?
asciilifeform: see above.
pete_dushenski: reich doesn't need challenging anymore, does it. looks like it's pretty well occupied with the enemy within.
asciilifeform: ( see also 'taiwanization', http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-01#1511945 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-01 00:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-01#1511937 << oh, "color revolutions" dun work ? tell you what, we'll steal your country's exports and with the proceeds finance an alt-country we'll pretend is realy your country. ha-ha!
asciilifeform: ' our cow died but hey, we can burn the neighbour's barn '
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: 'doesn't need no moar' is immaterial -- just like a freshly cut out liver is still trying, best as it can, to do its enzymatic business as if nothing happened, same -- reichs
asciilifeform: the anglos ultra-specialized in the 'divide and conquer' thing, it is burned into their firmware somehow.
pete_dushenski: just like chopped liver, you only like reich if you grew up with it.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: how's that relate ?
trinque: > ultra-specialized in the 'divide and conquer' thing << superpower of the schizoid?
pete_dushenski: just because you're eating the liver, doesn't mean you won't find another source of food when it's gone or as soon as the aging father finally croaks. but this is a stretch analogy.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: try as i might, i can't follow this
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: ya, reaching for sure. the point upstack was that paying sticker for pharma helps arm .il to the gills more than it helps usg maintain international kommonity relevance and that the former will outlast the latter
asciilifeform: afaik they still dun have a, e.g., self-made fighter jet.
pete_dushenski: recall that .il can and did actually build 'wall', not just talk about 'when i'm elected ima do such and such herpadurr'
asciilifeform: ( tried to, but usg offered 'for phreeee' and israelis were dumb enough to bite the hook )
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: because everyone know you need fighter jet in 21st century!!!1
asciilifeform: did somebody build tesla's 100km death ray while asciilifeform slept, or wut
asciilifeform: nobody cancelled the jet.
pete_dushenski: for whatever 'cybermilitary' is worth, i'd pit .il against any other
trinque recalls mircea_popescu's observation re: CN and missiles
trinque: in contrast to aircraft carrier Power Projection (TM)
pete_dushenski: this is post-nation-state world, cyber-d and a little bit of land is the best you can hope for.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: mojahed kalash dun run winblows.
asciilifeform: 'cyber' only works against overcivilized idiots
pete_dushenski: mojahed runs winbloze... on phone. or his boss does. or his gf does. or the new recruit does. "coming to a pocket near you" (tm)
trinque: what'd happen with the various sunni powers if suddenly usg vanished?
trinque: meanwhile, correct me if wrong, they're all stacked with american military hardware
trinque: was this true in the last such war?
pete_dushenski: some russian hardware too, and increasingly chinese as per http://archive.is/xhzQI
asciilifeform: trinque: that'd depend on whether 'usg vanishes' includes 'usg remote-disable codes leak'
trinque: my amateur eye sees, at least, a region stacked for a rough war.
pete_dushenski: in other rough regions, the usg 'left' is still confuzed as fuck http://archive.is/X9fwz
pete_dushenski: when su 'vanished' did nuke codes leak ? if so, why no kablooey ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: su didn't do the remote-disable thing, for exported iron
asciilifeform: merely sold 2-3 generations behind state of the art.
asciilifeform: other thing, remote-boobies are difficult with transistor-poor culture.
asciilifeform: no place to hide.
pete_dushenski: ic
pete_dushenski: makes sense, but ya, trinque 's q is still open then
trinque: y'know, if they're used to leaning on / suckling from USG, and it crumbles, they might consider leaning on whichever is biggest. turkey?
asciilifeform: last i heard, turks dun make own jet either..
trinque: buy from RU/CN; do either of them like Israel?
asciilifeform: not while it remains a muppet of a living usg, lol
trinque: right, so usg crumbles, erdrogan or whoever throws a big neo-caliphate party, invites everyone to go israel-stomping. russia and china collectivey "meh" and lol at the US losing a colony
trinque: or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687163 http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687164☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 15:49 asciilifeform: the need to use un-NATed boxes as proxies, so that NATed boxes can speak with one another, creates star topologies
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 15:50 asciilifeform: which makes the whole thing quite vulnerable.
trinque: pete_dushenski: looks like your link got snipped
pete_dushenski: aha. archive.is didn't eat it : https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics
pete_dushenski: ima grab lunch. bbl
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687147 << twasn't a joke, evidently the whole http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-19#1686643 is right on point.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 08:40 jurov: they took djb's joke seriously
a111: Logged on 2017-07-19 16:32 asciilifeform: the real usgtronic gem here is that there's massive existing investment in 'this is a transform of SOME dna sequence, SOMEWHERE, now tell me which' hardware
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687160 << and yet, gaming.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 15:41 asciilifeform: drilling holes in NAT is - apparently -- an open problem again.
asciilifeform: why 'yet' ?
asciilifeform: games connect to an un-natted central (star topology) box
asciilifeform: just like www browser etc
mircea_popescu: not all though.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this may be a "yes, meanwhile all", haven't looked.
asciilifeform: all.
asciilifeform: the only quasi-reliable method ( 'udp hole punch' ), used by , e.g., 'skype', STILL requires a 3rd party non-natted box to broker the connection
asciilifeform: so the star topology is still there.
asciilifeform: ( the 'star' does not have to physically pass ~all~ packets between ~all~ leaves, but this is still not actual p2p )
mircea_popescu: a solution to the problem would actually help trb too
asciilifeform: sure would.
mircea_popescu: (currently, nat'd boxes are ~useless as nodes)
asciilifeform: or any other non-1990s-usgolade protocol.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this goes on the list of tasks. "find nat hole".
asciilifeform: in so far as the net is concerned, imho this is ~the~ openproblem.
mircea_popescu: shinohai mind tweeting @samykamar ? apparently he's active. we wanna talk about pwnat.
asciilifeform: i have a theory which might, potentially, lead to a pill, will put it here slightly later
shinohai: Will do mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: rt
mircea_popescu: ty(
mircea_popescu: "Apparently future-dated gps packets disable Stingray phone signal intercept devices. The device thinks its license has expired and locks up." in other lulz
mircea_popescu: (from the guy's timeline)
asciilifeform: ahahahaha
mircea_popescu: ikr ?
mircea_popescu: this is like that scene in brazil.
asciilifeform: betcha they disable that cnc mill also
asciilifeform: the thing usg mandates on all large machines for export
shinohai: Appears @samykamar has deleted account or fell afoul of twitter lawz. My own account finally got limited.
mircea_popescu: shinohai and see if @Fox0x01 wants to come over also. apparently there's chicks into "offensive sec" whatever that is.
mircea_popescu: shinohai @samykamkar i misspel;led.
shinohai: ah kk
mircea_popescu: yeah kk
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEZLXpyXcAACS6k.jpg the dood has a pretty decent twitter.
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDVe9zpWsAIOjGN.jpg also
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_eH54QWAAAzHKl.jpg << pizza parlor's "ai" crashes, reveals that no females eat pizza. oslo.
asciilifeform: famous pic
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's the thing : we don't actually have the problem of nat traversal. in the following sense : gossipd is not intended to work without introduction. as part of the introduction, the introducer server can provide ips. those can then be used for everything, bitcoind, you name it.
mircea_popescu: basically the operating system of the republic will be gossipd.
asciilifeform: gossipd dun have the problem
asciilifeform: uci does.
mircea_popescu: not intended to work except atop gossipd.
mircea_popescu: making everything depend on gossipd present and running is the right thing anyway.
asciilifeform: most botnet nodes are behind nat.
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: so as things presently work, nobody can connect ~to~ them.
mircea_popescu: but whosoever does connect, puts in tmsr, ie, gossipd + uci whatever.
mircea_popescu: then the ycan connect to the whole fleet.
mircea_popescu: because they get their ips FROM gossipd.
asciilifeform: unless you have proper p2p, you get massive 'stars'. provenphakt.
mircea_popescu: you have proper p2p.
asciilifeform: mno. if there is a massive class of boxes that cannot plug directly into each other -- stars.
mircea_popescu: they can plug directly into each other.
asciilifeform: mno.
asciilifeform: because nat.
mircea_popescu: mno. because gossipd provides IPs.
asciilifeform: i.e. stars.
mircea_popescu: mno.
asciilifeform: expand ?
mircea_popescu: suppose you have nodes A, B behind a nat. suppose A and B run gossipd, and have been introduced to C. A aiming to connect to B or vice-versa for any reason is accomplished through : A asks C for an ip for B. C provides A with ip for B and B with notification of A's request (at the least, its ip).
mircea_popescu: A and B can now connect.
mircea_popescu: B can now become C for D ; and A can now become C for Z.
mircea_popescu: ie, problem reduced to bootstrapping, significantly lower class.
asciilifeform: skype
mircea_popescu: no, because C doesn't need to be around.
asciilifeform: well this is where it falls
mircea_popescu: and why ?
asciilifeform: you can't presently 'become C for D'
mircea_popescu: and why not ?
asciilifeform: read how 'udp hole punch' worx
mircea_popescu: you become C for D in gossipd.
asciilifeform: this was actually my 1st thought, essentially, 'why can't it be C for D'
mircea_popescu: ie, D then asks B, "what about A ?" and B provides ip and notification to A.
asciilifeform: and it can't because D has no way to contact the A and B pair .
mircea_popescu: D is already introduced to B.
mircea_popescu: and wants to be introduced to A also.
asciilifeform: if D is already linked to B, it is not a D
asciilifeform: i assumed D referred to a new node
mircea_popescu: let me rephrase this for your own terminology then.
mircea_popescu: you have nodes N1...Nn all behind a nat. Server S popus up and connects them in pairs such that no Ni is without at least one peer. Server S dies. The whole N1..Nn remains connected forever, notwithstanding how any NjNk connections may die.
mircea_popescu: should any Nq become isolated, it will require a S to be reintroduced.
asciilifeform: not forever. strictly until somebody's dynamicip changes.
asciilifeform: and yes it will require an S to reintroduce itself.
asciilifeform: which turns the class of S-capable nodes into stars.
mircea_popescu: this is not a problem, but a good thing : provides monetary incentive to maintain node connections
mircea_popescu: ie, alt-soilves the bitcoin node problem
asciilifeform: ( without them, the action stops )
asciilifeform: it doesn't provide monetary incentive, any more than today's expense of running a proper node magically transforms into compensation
asciilifeform: there is no way to collect.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the correct approach to that problem is for all boxes which can not obtain leased ips but only dynamic ips to own two internet connections.\
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and how about unwilling bots ?
mircea_popescu: this is ALSO good : breask the ip-box bijectivity, as was intention all along transparently throughout spec docs.
asciilifeform: i.e. uci installs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform will get reinstalled every ip change i guess.
asciilifeform: understand, nat is the principal weak link in botnet topology.
mircea_popescu: i understand no such thing.
asciilifeform: there is no way to distribute an infector without hardcoded ips
mircea_popescu: anyway -- the way to collect is that you don't have to pay for a S coming up. just like the car using less gasoline -- you do collect.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nonsense.
asciilifeform: ( there are various 'cheats' around this, but all resolve to hardcoded hidey-hole ~somewhere~ that contains where next to connect )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's concretize . say i write an infector. what should be its mechanism of connecting to greater tmsr ?
mircea_popescu: a box you own can connect to the network through the usual process : asks all your peers for peers to connect to.
asciilifeform: what peers ?
asciilifeform: it has nfi what exists
asciilifeform: it's a clean install.
asciilifeform: but if you propose to package it with a hardcoded list of existing peers -- guess what, this is what people traditionally do. they get unplugged, and then whole net is useless.
mircea_popescu: is this "how to run software on block of wood" ?
asciilifeform: mno. this is the hypothetical of 'how to get properly p2p net'
asciilifeform: my contention was -- we dun have it. yet.
asciilifeform: but the problem is not solved by pretending it not to exist.
asciilifeform: as BingoBoingo's 'big book' reminds.
mircea_popescu: i dun follow what the problem's supposed to be with the above scheme.
mircea_popescu: you keep wanting the solution expressed in different terminology and upon delivery promptly proceed to change the terminology.
mircea_popescu: this'd be 3rd pass.
asciilifeform: it ain't a solution if it merely redefines the problem as 'the way life is'
asciilifeform: i want a nonstar topology.
mircea_popescu: and above is such described.
asciilifeform: can haz, or not, is a question that can be posed. but to give a solution WITH stars, is neither here nor there.
asciilifeform: there must NOT BE any such thing as 'S'.
mircea_popescu: ever ?
asciilifeform: ever.
asciilifeform: just peers.
mircea_popescu: then your problem has no solution.
asciilifeform: can haz? maybe cannot
mircea_popescu: "i have boxes that don't respond to unknowns and no way to make unknowns known can has solution ?" alfian style problem.
mircea_popescu: there's temporary Sn. this is quite literally just how life is.
mircea_popescu: can "problematize" about it all you want, but when you're done -- the solution is to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687348☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:50 mircea_popescu: you have nodes N1...Nn all behind a nat. Server S popus up and connects them in pairs such that no Ni is without at least one peer. Server S dies. The whole N1..Nn remains connected forever, notwithstanding how any NjNk connections may die.
asciilifeform: that ain't a solution.
asciilifeform: that's 'fuckoff'
asciilifeform: which is a reasonable answer, but why package it as 'solution'
mircea_popescu: hey. the world runs on fuckoff since ~forever.
asciilifeform: esp. if actual solution may well exist.
mircea_popescu: because sometimes that's exactly what it is neh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "actual solution" will be exploiting hole in nat which depends on nat staying stupid in that specific way, which pwnat experience shows is worse than nothing.
trinque: pf: pf_normalize_tcp_stateful failed on first pkt << deedbot departures appear to correspond with this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not necessarily.
asciilifeform: there are some invariant 'holes' that will never close so long as the thing has to pass www
mircea_popescu: necessarily. if you grant nat implemented correctly, your problem is exactly that of the british girl on the deserted island. "so how was the sex ?" "i dunno, no star topoloigies!!!"
asciilifeform: ( and other tcp )
mircea_popescu: nonsense. "the eternal hole" is worse delusion than proper fuckoff.
mircea_popescu: the whole "will never as long as www" bullshit is just a larger cycle pwnat delusion.
mircea_popescu: "oh, the soviets could never x because market". da fuck do the soviets care.
trinque: which amusingly enough is emitted right before this comment in pf.c: /* This really shouldn't happen!!! */
mircea_popescu: remember when amd would never have dared stopping contributing to coreboot because "public opinion" ?
asciilifeform: 'hole' is the wrong word re how udp holepunch works
asciilifeform: it can't really be vanished away without killing 'tcp to arsebook' etc also. as i currently understand it.
asciilifeform: ( if somebody wants to describe how , i'll listen )
mircea_popescu: so it will be vanished away.
mircea_popescu: again -- stop baking empire into your work. whether positively or negatively.
asciilifeform: can only vanish along with http.
mircea_popescu: so it will.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=208 << like so.
mircea_popescu: "can only vanish along with gopher, omfg who could live in a http world"
asciilifeform: but strictly like so.
mircea_popescu: guess who.
asciilifeform: whitelist aol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not at all. strictly like as you see all around today.
mircea_popescu: "the web" is the result of better things shut off.
asciilifeform: there is no external cure for aol.
mircea_popescu: there is. again in the vanishing hope that may help : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687348☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:50 mircea_popescu: you have nodes N1...Nn all behind a nat. Server S popus up and connects them in pairs such that no Ni is without at least one peer. Server S dies. The whole N1..Nn remains connected forever, notwithstanding how any NjNk connections may die.
asciilifeform: if serf can't get on the actual net, this is not something that can be solved ~for~ him by anyone else
mircea_popescu: it can be solved, by peers, as above. as long as some kind of net exists. any kind.
mircea_popescu: not "this kind we wrote against". ANY kind.
asciilifeform: not if he has to connect to one of $smallint S boxes. that are all firewalled off at his isp.
mircea_popescu: S are not known in advance but by him.
asciilifeform: and how exactly is this achieved ?
mircea_popescu: you can put whatever you want in that list, and should put plenty of crap.
asciilifeform: telapathy ?
asciilifeform: *telepathy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform YOUR peers. yours.
mircea_popescu: you put, on the box you own, whatever list of your peers as you deem fit.
mircea_popescu: as long as at least one of them actually works, the box is now connected. and will stay connected.
mircea_popescu: and will discover peers and act as a peer beacon for others and so on.
asciilifeform: well yes. if you were able to connect, you were... surprise... able to connect
asciilifeform: mega-revelation
mircea_popescu: ...
mircea_popescu: maybe we need to revisit the introduction part ?
asciilifeform: the problem -- and it IS a problem -- is that cold bootup, for ~any~ node, requires knowing a working S.
mircea_popescu: ". A aiming to connect to B or vice-versa for any reason is accomplished through : A asks C for an ip for B. C provides A with ip for B and B with notification of A's request (at the least, its ip)." << A sends C a request. C sends A an ip for B and B an ip for A. both B and A start broadcasting at each other fixed packets until the conn is established.
asciilifeform: ^ or as pictured here, C
asciilifeform: == S
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is only a problem in the sense of "i have decided to not work today so i can't"
asciilifeform: it is a problem in the same way as it is for trb.
asciilifeform: and for botnet.
mircea_popescu: trb has problems resulting from being written by monkeys.
asciilifeform: creates massive stars, in practice.
asciilifeform: speaking here of topological problem that will remain after rewritten by people.
mircea_popescu: what creates massive stars in practice is that the geeks doing this have no peers.
mircea_popescu: if i put up a box my S list will look nothing like yours.
asciilifeform: this'd require at least 2 S to exist, lol
mircea_popescu: and, to stick to fundamentals : your whole argument "proves" that #trilema could not exist.
mircea_popescu: yet, notwithstanding sina's concerns, we did manage to bootstrap trust out of nothing.
asciilifeform: this is == to sina's 'you used gpg yesterday, why is using it tomorrow a problem'
mircea_popescu: there's no other way socialisation works than by introduction. this is not a problem. you are welcome to approach it, but you will be wasting your time.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall your joak re brits fucking ?
mircea_popescu: a better world for computers where the rapist-racism of needing someone to introduce you has been resolved is truly not in any way different than the same re people.
mircea_popescu: i do.
asciilifeform: ( as alluded to in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-23#1660666 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 23:34 mircea_popescu: what fucking fix. they can't open it anymore than they can fuck the woman on the deserted island. "nobody to introduce us!!1"
mircea_popescu: amusingly i also put it in the log earlioer today. so what of it ?
asciilifeform: it gives the current state of the art re 'how to connect without introduction'
asciilifeform: i.e. to shout
mircea_popescu: this is neither a solution nor a problem nor something fit for discussion.
asciilifeform: existing botnets do this -- the familiar port scan and hammer
asciilifeform: it is ugly.
mircea_popescu: it is NOT A THING.
mircea_popescu: also gives the state of the art re mate finding in the greater uslandia. and it's the lulz of all time.
asciilifeform: depends what you're doing, neh. if you're a cicada looking for a fuck -- worx
mircea_popescu: next we're gonna what, come up with flip flops for computers ?
mircea_popescu: i hear apple stocks them.
asciilifeform: it's the 'insect' solution, gotta mention it for completeness.
mircea_popescu: i... guess
asciilifeform: sorta as british admiral answered 'boil the ocean' to 'is there a solution to uboat'
mircea_popescu: back to it -- once A knows what ip B is at and B knows what ip A is at, they can exchange crafter packets to the point of parlaying it into an established connection. in order to find these, they both rely on their peers. if they have no peers, they don't properly speaking exist, and an angel from above in the shape of a tmsr lord will have to bless them with the spark of life.
mircea_popescu: as for computers -- so for biosacks.
asciilifeform: i'll point out that i do not know of a different recipe than mircea_popescu's ( and in fact is same used by 'skype' and various heathens , for many years. )
mircea_popescu: and yes the fact that the list of S must be at least a dozen different lists and each a grosse long is why we can't do this arbitrarily early.
mircea_popescu: and also why rando neckbeard can't do himself.
mircea_popescu: (grosse ftr = 12 dozen)
asciilifeform: my objection is that the star topology does not go away by virtue of being called something else. you have a class of fully-capable nodes, S, that can accept unsolicited pipes; and a much larger class of P ( lessay, peons ), behind NAT, who cannot. ergo stars.
asciilifeform: this may very well be fundamental limit.
mircea_popescu: this is not what i see. what i see is that you have a list of C1..n machines ; some of which are included arbitrarily in a list of S1...j and some of which are not.
asciilifeform: and ergo net would have to be deployed in massive burst, whereby yesterday there were 0 S, but today 9000.
mircea_popescu: any C could at any point be a S or not be a S (and because of encryption observer can't even tell which it is)
asciilifeform: there is a separate problem pertaining to uci, that does not reduce strictly to 'nat problem'
mircea_popescu: but -- the fact that A happens to already have a connection to B and therefore B can S for him does not imply or require either A or B be not behind a nat.
asciilifeform: which is that new infections are not physically distinguishable from sybils
mircea_popescu: they are not distinguishable at all, what.
asciilifeform: and so you cannot have 'communicate only with knowns' in botnet
asciilifeform: and cannot operate by 'nothing to allcomers'
mircea_popescu: new guy walks in. how is he distinguishable from usg.pinoy ?
asciilifeform: i do not know of a solution to this presently
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is not distinguishable. but he can make a key and build identity
mircea_popescu: the solution is that some "people" will accept noobs and some won't. in practice, everyone will run multiple interfaces and thassat.
asciilifeform: bot node, generally, has nothing like an actual rng.
asciilifeform: so cannot form identity.
asciilifeform: it is also subject to key compromise at any time.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by now we are strasight back to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687375☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:56 mircea_popescu: is this "how to run software on block of wood" ?
mircea_popescu: "has no internet connection, and no rng. can still use ?"
mircea_popescu: "sure, prop a door."
asciilifeform: babbage knew how.
mircea_popescu: the sad truth is that everyone is subject to key compromise at any time.
asciilifeform: in practice, some folx moar often than others.
asciilifeform: ( everyone is also subject to piano falling on him )
mircea_popescu: and with computers also.
mircea_popescu: but yes -- the standard here is that at no point will you know (or care!) whether box A is box A or box E.
asciilifeform: this is necessary but not sufficient
asciilifeform: you also want that nobody can affect how the net works by bringing 9000 of his own As to the table.
mircea_popescu: you accomplish this by not sharing your S lists.
asciilifeform: i was still speaking of uci bots
mircea_popescu: there is no such distinction. gossipd carries all.
mircea_popescu: whether server A im talking to i'm talking so it adds 2 and 2 for me, or gives me a new friend, or shoots a missile, is not a part of design consideration.
asciilifeform: this doesn't magically become a description of a working scheme, by mircea_popescu stating so
mircea_popescu: what do you mean ?
asciilifeform: let's take the typical bot, of which existing nets ( of infected nodes, rather than 'voluntary' p2p ) are made
mircea_popescu: ok
asciilifeform: winblows box, containing potentially 900 other pieces of shitware
asciilifeform: any and all of which look for other processes and occasionally snapshot to send back to $mothership - 'perhaps interesting', 'perhaps contains keys'
mircea_popescu: i expect step 0 : rewrite mbr, fix rest of hdd, reboot into sane os.
mircea_popescu: i see absolutely 0 reason of tmsr tolerating non tmsr software on same box. wipe it all on sight.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-15#1684024 <<☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-15 05:27 mircea_popescu: !#s "can we have everything louder than everything else"
mircea_popescu: what.
asciilifeform: unobtainium.
mircea_popescu: this whole "bitcoin ransom" bs is just that, an ouverture.
mircea_popescu: the end game is, your computer was liberated from the crap. your "data" made on your "software". no need for either, grow up.
asciilifeform: only works because it doesn't result in operating box.
mircea_popescu: hm ?
asciilifeform: in original description of uci, was described as 'cpu cycle by the pound' sort of affair
asciilifeform: which implies that user keeps the machine plugged in
asciilifeform: victim, rather
mircea_popescu: ok ?
mircea_popescu: victim is the windowshead.
asciilifeform: why would he keep it plugged in if you formatted and installed slave-for-tmsr-os instead of all that stood there
mircea_popescu: he can do whatever he pleases. ideally stop with the inane bullshit.
asciilifeform: my current understanding is that you need ~some~ degree of stealth
asciilifeform: similar to existing crapware
mircea_popescu: mine isn't.
asciilifeform: expand plox
asciilifeform: user switches on box, sees 'muhahaha all my cycles belong to mircea_popescu OS installed!'
mircea_popescu: but like i just said ? if you end up owning a machine with crap installed, what do you do ? wipe the crap, install a sane os and continue.
asciilifeform: next thing - he takes it to the corner store and trades in hdd
mircea_popescu: why do you think this is different from that ?
asciilifeform: where does uci pool of available cpu cycles come from then
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would it be "mirceapopescu os" ? it's just a sane os. he can say hi in gossipd.
mircea_popescu: make some non-retarded friends for once in his life.
asciilifeform: so 'sane os' magically containing luser's demanded toolset, is also somehow in the mix ??!
mircea_popescu: sane os containing tmsr toolset.
mircea_popescu: and yes, he's more than welcome to take a hammer at it / take it back to winapple shop to "have it fixed" (and it will be, and then re-fixed and so on)
mircea_popescu: or else he can learn how to ada, why not.
asciilifeform: this is an entertaining idea ( though i predict that the typical luser will run ever the moar quicker to the new hdd shop from it ) but was not in mircea_popescu's classical uci spec.
mircea_popescu: it was, yes.
mircea_popescu: uci does not convey OWNership of box but permits USAGE thereof.
phf: what a beautiful idea
mircea_popescu: if you OWN a box, you first set it up.
mircea_popescu: phf ikr ? seems the most placid obviousness to me somehow. i must be a little odd.
asciilifeform: hey who didn't think of 'say virus installed linux' in 1998
asciilifeform certainly did
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform point being, loser can just let uci churn, watch his bitcoin acrete. why not.
asciilifeform: he dun have a his
mircea_popescu: he just got one.
mircea_popescu: for the first time in his lyf.
asciilifeform: and if his hdd dun fit the chain ?
mircea_popescu: then he'll be stuck waiting for a new hdd.
asciilifeform: good chunk of extant iron, is not actually bitcointronic
mircea_popescu: what do they do when their gfx card dun fit the game ?!?!?!
asciilifeform: if cpu cycles were actually fungible, this would already long ago exist.
asciilifeform: but they are not.
asciilifeform: because there is not yet any known way to compensate the possibility of deliberate misanswer in the calculation.
mircea_popescu: so far the ~only problem i can discern keeping cool things from long ago existing is the pretense of allowing idiots choice.
mircea_popescu: take that away, let them learn how to use a tmsr computer or do without a computer at all.
asciilifeform: you can achieve similar effect just by formatting their hdd, erasing whatever eraseable roms, etc
asciilifeform: 1990s virii folx had the right idea.
mircea_popescu: why the fuyck competer in "gui" when you can just compete in holes and either bury the stubborn or else watch windows turn into very much tmsr kicking and screaming ?
mircea_popescu: bitcoin. it corrupts.
asciilifeform: however this does not buy you the use of the victim's willingly paid electric bill.
mircea_popescu: i need his two dollars like i need his girlfriend.
asciilifeform: ( formatting hdd, that is. doesn't )
asciilifeform: 2 * maxint
asciilifeform: whole point of botnet neh
mircea_popescu: yeah, right.
mircea_popescu: botnet is not even ev.
asciilifeform: that was my argument against the entire uci thing, recall
asciilifeform: that nobody knows how to make it +ev.
mircea_popescu: back to the topic : the idea is to have properly arranged owned boxes. this will include gossipd as a basis, uci on top of that if the OWNer opts to, bitcoind on top of that likely, a devenv, whatever.
asciilifeform: so - willingly crafted boxes, then
mircea_popescu: will doesn't enter into it one way or another.
mircea_popescu: i really don't give a shit what anyone wants.
asciilifeform: this has 0 bearing on physical reality.
mircea_popescu: maximal boxes.
mircea_popescu: this is how water flows, and how everything else happens.
mircea_popescu: windows will either compete with tmsr or go away. if it competes -- it becomes. if it goes away -- it becomes. there is no choice and there is no will.
asciilifeform: if you use infected idiots, you're stuck explaining what's to keep'em from reinstalling winblows + patch against whatever door you walked in through.
mircea_popescu: nothing.
mircea_popescu: if it competes -- it becomes. if it goes away -- it becomes.
asciilifeform: this is reminiscent of the old virulence debate re ebola etc - 'why are there not moar ebolas'
asciilifeform: or the evolution of 'hiv2' etc
mircea_popescu: there is major difference between competition in software and competition in (any kind of) hardware. very narrow protein spaces in biofilms.
asciilifeform: expand?
mircea_popescu: (by spaces i mean spaces of possibilities, you can write any succession of letters but can't make any molecule you need work the way you'd expect)
asciilifeform: far more narrow in the world of the artificial.
asciilifeform: ( this is called 'brittleness' by aficionados of 'meat-like machinery' )
mircea_popescu: there's less optionality in nature. if you need a GABA, you will use... GABA. that's it. most software problems of comparable complexity allow multiple solutions.
asciilifeform: brittleness is in fact the reason why nobody's made 'evolved' code do much of ~anything interesting to date
mircea_popescu: i hold this is a sore misperception.
asciilifeform: what can i say, do try it
asciilifeform: i -- did
asciilifeform: fwiw cured me of 'this great unsolved problem is merely a small misconception everyone in the field merely happened to suffer from'
mircea_popescu: what are you suggesting i try ?
asciilifeform: describe a model of computation that is 1) usefully complete -- can carry out actual work 2) is substantially non-brittle - i.e. flipping 20% of the bits results in something that is only, say, 20% away from, but still recognizable as the original performer, rather than liquishit
asciilifeform: this was what minsky was trying to achieve with neural network. failed.
asciilifeform: ( even if nn is used today -- it is in fact used very sparingly, and in combination with other algos , rather than as universal engine as originally envisioned )
asciilifeform: because unlearns faster than learns.
asciilifeform: think of it as the ~opposite~ problem to mircea_popescu's hash func.
asciilifeform: (i.e., on what do you compute, such that only MOST mutations are lethal, rather than ALL )
asciilifeform: this is a mega-problem -- an entire field went to the grave because it was not able to solve it.
asciilifeform: and was replaced by bayesian garbage
trinque: markets appear to solve it.
asciilifeform: trinque: expand?
mircea_popescu: and while we ponder this : what is the difference in your estimation between http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-15#1670731 and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-07#1598150 ?☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-15 15:16 mircea_popescu: aaand in other news, who wants to wire 2.5k for me ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-07 15:19 mircea_popescu: and entirely unrelatedly : anyone willing to stand up an irc bot for me (as a service for hire deal) and expose some kind of programmable interface that can read messages to it, process and push out a reply ? bonus points if i don't have to learn crazy-shitstick-"$modernlanguage".
mircea_popescu: what, that they happened over freenode rather than over gossipd ? that the latter is "not properly uci" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wiring some reichsmarks takes 5min of work
asciilifeform: writing proggy -- longer..
mircea_popescu: if i ask the owner of machine A to write me a bubblesort or write abada on his tits or whatever ?
mircea_popescu: what the hell is the difference supposed to be.
asciilifeform: difference between mountain and molehill
trinque: asciilifeform: sounds like you're thinking of UCI as one giant virtual machine atop which godman inca runs his programs
mircea_popescu: pshhaw
asciilifeform: to a topologist - maybe none
asciilifeform: just as no diff bw a tennis ball and moon
mircea_popescu: there is NO difference.
trinque: rather than here I sit, I paid some nodes to do work, turned out the output was useful to me
trinque: so I'll pay them to do more
trinque: which is what business is
asciilifeform: trinque: approx, but with 'l1 key holders' rather than inca
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a broken model.
asciilifeform: it was how i read the original trilema article re subj
mircea_popescu: yes, because you have in your head a rigid model of a specific thing. but you see, l1 is not defined afore the fact. l1 is WHAT EMERGES from this process, whatever it may be.
mircea_popescu: that's why the original lordship discussion says "it's not an argument that these are the best, we don't care who's the best. these -- are."
asciilifeform: it is defined by induction.
mircea_popescu: well if l1 ends up as a skirt to hide inca into that'd be one sad fucking outcome.
mircea_popescu: and who the fuck is corrupting who here!
asciilifeform: what'd be the definition of the inca here ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno that i have a definition, but the afore-the-fact grates.
trinque: the imaginary observer before whom the whole UCI topology sits, with equal results for all-comers
mircea_popescu: let us take a very lengthy detour if you'll indulge me.
asciilifeform: trinque: this is where i will admit that your argument is making 0 sense to me
mircea_popescu: so : there obviously is such a thing as "mainstream society". people meet, get married, have kids watch tv whatever. there ALSO is such a thing as "a bdsm community".
mircea_popescu: we on the page so far ?
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: ok. now, it is the oft unspoken but nevertheless common self flattery of all males that they are "doms" or "masters" whatever.
mircea_popescu: it is also the sad truth of biology that almost none actually are.
asciilifeform: ( or 'programmers' or 'artists' or 'carpenters' ... ) but yes
mircea_popescu: women find themselves caught up in the usual sad position their lot ends caught up in : they're stuck bridging reality and male nonsense.
mircea_popescu: so then, let's examine corruption.
mircea_popescu: corruption is that act whereby software is patched.
mircea_popescu: so, suppose a greatly respected dom dood hangs out by the highschool, and soft talks a girl studying there into coming along to the bdsm club.
asciilifeform: i.e. where market re-prices the faux-carpenter as pork on the hoof per pound ?
mircea_popescu: has she been corrupted ? perhaps. maybe, if she is turned from the "normal direction" of cooking-kids-tv into being an out and out slut, she has been corrupted.
mircea_popescu: but has he ?
mircea_popescu: maybe he finally marries. girl does a little bit of wearing push up bras for a year or so... and then for the rest of their natural lives they tvkids.
mircea_popescu: so. who is corrupting who ? how do you tell ~early~ ?
asciilifeform: from whose pov is either 'corrupted', other than hypothetical pantsuit priest's ?
asciilifeform: 'no longer operating within spec' of priest - yes
asciilifeform: but who else gives a shit
mircea_popescu: well, at time t they each purport to run a software. at time t1, they observably both run the same software. some patching went on. who ?
mircea_popescu: and this is my point here : yes, bitcoin corrupts. i mean specific things by this term of art, they're in the logs.
asciilifeform: could describe both as having run an ill-conceived winblowz, originally, that bsoded in the end in the same way
asciilifeform: and yes bitcoin 'corrupts' like forest fire burns.
mircea_popescu: the proposition that we'd end up with a sort of uci-as-nsa and l1-as-subtstitute-for-dnc is very much the proposition that, "you know what ? inca also corrupts"
asciilifeform: ( very overdue forest fire, at that )
asciilifeform: i read the original uci proposal as straight weapon of us vs them
mircea_popescu: this is observably true, in history : the proposition that "it's a great idea to live above your means" was the proximate cause of "french revolution" and every other socialist attack on money hence
asciilifeform: rather than eulora-like closes planet
mircea_popescu: including the silver money lobby in us and so on.
asciilifeform: *closed planet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well in principle the problem is, nothing tmsr does can possibly be anything but straight weapon of "us against them". it is a terrorist organisation after all.
asciilifeform: yes but distinguish bayonet thrust from recruitment
mircea_popescu: how ?
asciilifeform: bayonet is not making a new wot member in good standing. it is pest control.
mircea_popescu: anyway, but the tendency is there, your mind is "oh, mircea_popescu os". except i've no intention to mircea_popescu os anyone as such.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform problem is, at amoeba stage, can't distinguish infection from copulation. it's still cytostrands.
asciilifeform: the practical knot is -- do you wanna squeeze the winblowz idiots for max cpu cycle and storage space times electric current -- or to convert'em to tmsr participants ( do most have even the elementary neural makings of one ? why to suddenly think this ? )
mircea_popescu: moreover, explain. what DOES make such a new member in good standing ? trinque goes riding through poor neighbourhood, sees fetching negress, goes "hey ho! wanna be my slave ?" she goes "Sure loverboy". he takes her home, wipes her laptop and installs tmsr os. next you know it, black chix code.
asciilifeform: as i see it the 2 are disjoint
mircea_popescu: how do you then distinguish these thrusts ?
asciilifeform: bayonet, or fuck.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not want anything in particular ; but i do observe and therefore declare that as water flows to lower ground and as good money pushes out the bad so too better computers own shittier computers and there's jack shit me or you or them or anyone can do about this.
asciilifeform: this is great thread, but i have an incoming, so brb..
asciilifeform bbl - meat
mircea_popescu: now -- whether windowshead wants to or doesn't want to participate is entirely irrelevant. he can destroy the machine, or keep bringing in to his dumbship for "repairs" or whatever flailing. what of it.
mircea_popescu: but as to the practical knot - i dun wanna squeeze idiots for anything. to begin with, the very definition of idiocy assures me they have nothing i want.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687166 << ac has filters neh ? or not really cold enough up there to have airtight house☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:09 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: blackzilla is enjoying the seasonal weather more than i'm enjoying the seasonal smoke. being downwind of the massive bc fires isn't doing wonders for the ol' respiratory tract. (waking up coughing, etc.) . needless to say i've a newfound appreciation for the sorry denizens of chinese mega-cities. it's one of those "you never know what you've got until it's gone" (tm) things
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687190 << bwhaahah☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:17 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: alphabet is only 22-characters, it's doable
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: well, no 'ac' per se at either home or bureau.
mircea_popescu: what do they even do in bc, central air ? or ?
pete_dushenski sees that his hebe joek is well received
mircea_popescu has in time become very partial to the solution for northern climes. "just pretend house is mfg plant, and that's why there must be a thick dong suspended under roof."
pete_dushenski: bc is ~800km away, which is where the wildfires are. alberta is just downwind. there are basically just circulation fans on the rooves. and windows! glorious operable windows that do oh so little to keep out pm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687201 << this is rather not true. israel is up there with romania and the technological greats in "valuable subassembly production".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:27 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: modern-day .il is a parasitic rider on usg -- and not merely in the well-known 'free money' sense, but also in that the ~only exports are 'intellectual property' racket, which rides on usg's patent enforcement shakedown
pete_dushenski: great, now i'm imagining black footlong dongs as ceiling mobiles. THIS IS BAD FOR CHILDREN MKDAY
mircea_popescu: centrail air, i'm telling you. can heat/cool/humidifix/filter, you name it.
mircea_popescu: you have a water plant in the basement, and it should be right next to the airplant.
pete_dushenski: just got quote for a/c at house actually : $5k (~1.4btc). not terribru and better than coughing myself awake in the middle of the night ?
mircea_popescu: the airtightness is more important than just plopping a split unit on the livingroom wall.
mircea_popescu: from experience, about 3.5x cheaper to build for it than to retrofit.\
mircea_popescu: but anyway, yes, 5k in deductible payment that improves property is way the fuck better than aerosol induced astma, which is something that does happen, and which is something that can readily cost 10x that over a miserable lifetime.
pete_dushenski: airtightness is pretty much a given in these parts, in my 60s house or 50s office maybe a bit less but certainly in newer builds
pete_dushenski: well aren't we just the a/c salesmen. well goddamit if i call him right now to install it's of my own volition!!1
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: tell you what, "eh fuck this shit" is how i ended up with millions in deployed capital, the roi of which was above par overall (not counting any subjectives).
pete_dushenski: i can see it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687227 << the irony of it is that they stealthy do! when the romanians wiped the us ariforce out of the skies during that lulz exercise, what did it other than the pilots was the recently deployed israeli electronic upgrade.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:48 asciilifeform: afaik they still dun have a, e.g., self-made fighter jet.
mircea_popescu: the russians have no planes without the israeli bits. which means in point of fact that yes, the israelis have a fighter jet. and the best kind there can be had, also -- another's wife.
mircea_popescu: (the event also set us policy -- the reason they moved to tomahawk-from-boat rather than the 1990s-style iraq sorties is that us airforce could not actually stand up to ro airforce if it came to dogfight, which is more ridiculous than it stands.)
mircea_popescu: more ridiculous than it sounds* i mean.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687232 << ahaha. look into it sometime :D☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:49 asciilifeform: nobody cancelled the jet.
mircea_popescu: as it stands currently, the russians will have the last jet much like the germans have the last car.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687233 << any other but iran,☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:49 pete_dushenski: for whatever 'cybermilitary' is worth, i'd pit .il against any other
mircea_popescu: but sure.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687242 << kinda, yeah. and before that, french materiel they ~didn't know how to use either.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:53 trinque: was this true in the last such war?
mircea_popescu: lotta period lulz about british spitfires strafing bedouin warparties etc.
trinque: heh, then the next one should be just as lulzy
mircea_popescu: prolly.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687246 << was this something ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:57 pete_dushenski: in other rough regions, the usg 'left' is still confuzed as fuck http://archive.is/X9fwz
mircea_popescu: anyway. the "UAE demands to Qatar" redo of WW1-era "serbian ultimatum" is ... still ongoing!! now with revisions and etc.
mircea_popescu: but in more practical terms, apparently "teh terrorists" actually took over a country on the quiet.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> as it stands currently, the russians will have the last jet much like the germans have the last car. << But as we learned from pete_dushenski,sometimes the lawnmower's more fun
mircea_popescu: ttp://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-sanctions-property-idUSKBN1A30H5 in moar random lulz
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687243 << the framing is so lulzy. really, "unable to buy us junk", that's the lead ? cuz they totally would have bought if ... they could... get it for free ? and under no other circumstances ? awww.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:54 pete_dushenski: some russian hardware too, and increasingly chinese as per http://archive.is/xhzQI
BingoBoingo: Finally someone severed that damned h from ttp
mircea_popescu: freeeeehdom!
shinohai: It's new BingoBoingo, the Turd Transport Protocol (tm)
mircea_popescu: ehehe
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687247 << they didn't work. but yes, early 90s you could buy su nuke parts on black market.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:58 pete_dushenski: when su 'vanished' did nuke codes leak ? if so, why no kablooey ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687258 << absolutely not. if usg fell into the sea tomorrow, turkey would ally with israel and probably iran against the rest of the weirdos. and they'd throw such an arab peninsula rape party as the world's never seen.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:08 trinque: right, so usg crumbles, erdrogan or whoever throws a big neo-caliphate party, invites everyone to go israel-stomping. russia and china collectivey "meh" and lol at the US losing a colony
mircea_popescu: ~everyone there's sick of the "rich" arab nations as of crab apples.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687404 << do either of you have the packet involved ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:01 trinque: pf: pf_normalize_tcp_stateful failed on first pkt << deedbot departures appear to correspond with this.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ~everyone there's sick of the "rich" arab nations as of crab apples. << Poor crab apples, many are enslaved as the plumbing that allows fruiting apples to live. This is a rich metaphor space.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687493 << there is certainly a "minimum safe count". the issue is that just like with bitcoin -- the actual count increases as the item grows. so "waiting to polish it moar" not necessarily winning strategy. then again, too early not winning strategy either.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:22 asciilifeform: and ergo net would have to be deployed in massive burst, whereby yesterday there were 0 S, but today 9000.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aha.
BingoBoingo senses crab apple oppresion fanfic inbound
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687745 <--> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687263☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687246 << was this something ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:19 pete_dushenski: aha. archive.is didn't eat it : https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics
pete_dushenski: i got a kick out of the 'we are mp because we can haz podcast, bow hethens!!1' schtick
mircea_popescu: dun work here.
pete_dushenski: https://web.archive.org/web/20170719131843/https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics ?
mircea_popescu: well it's loading... something. so meanwhile http://68.media.tumblr.com/dfa0b2a7a8ab3190014fcad8129f815d/tumblr_n063okIvVB1r2hz45o1_500.gif
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski spent 5 mins to load a 404
asciilifeform slowly re-eats the l0gz
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/oyEC2 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics
pete_dushenski: i shan't give up on this lol even if it is now a stale, forced effort!
asciilifeform: so which is it, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687705 or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-12#1681782 ?☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:13 mircea_popescu: but as to the practical knot - i dun wanna squeeze idiots for anything. to begin with, the very definition of idiocy assures me they have nothing i want.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-12 03:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just that -- have $100, get $100 worth of computer ; not have - not get.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687636 << how long it takes is not really the point. i DID in fact verify that candi_lustt was not http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687580☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:57 asciilifeform: writing proggy -- longer..
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:40 asciilifeform: because there is not yet any known way to compensate the possibility of deliberate misanswer in the calculation.
asciilifeform: as i understand it -- dichotomy
mircea_popescu: i don't see this. write it out ?
asciilifeform: pillage xor burn
asciilifeform: y'know , like in civ1
mircea_popescu: i still don't follow this. so : there's a chickfield. upon this chickfield you run a transform. it results in either all of them dying or some useful slavegirls surviving.
mircea_popescu: where is the dichotomy ?
mircea_popescu: obviously no slavegirl is free ranged pantsuit. so in this sense -- they all die, yes.
mircea_popescu: some -- reborn. most don't. life.
asciilifeform: but suppose what you really want is to clear a minefield.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/07/black-man-paroled-the-juice-is-once-again-loose/ << Qntra - Black Man Paroled: The Juice Is Once Again Loose
asciilifeform: then herding, even temporarily -- is +ev
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687704 << my contention was that trying to, e.g., 'solve 1024 chickens problem' is wasted effort in this case, just format their hdd and call it a day☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:12 mircea_popescu: now -- whether windowshead wants to or doesn't want to participate is entirely irrelevant. he can destroy the machine, or keep bringing in to his dumbship for "repairs" or whatever flailing. what of it.
asciilifeform: the uptake of whatever 'liberation' you forcibly thrust upon the cattle will be 0.
asciilifeform: ( these are creatures whose entire existence sits on a hallucinated pillar of 'choice' etc )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687721 << this is absolutely so. asciilifeform has a large ac in the work shed and it does ~0 -- because poor seals.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:28 mircea_popescu: the airtightness is more important than just plopping a split unit on the livingroom wall.
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit if it's 0 or -0.01
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687731 << if so, this does not bode well for ru planes if they ever face il☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:34 mircea_popescu: the russians have no planes without the israeli bits. which means in point of fact that yes, the israelis have a fighter jet. and the best kind there can be had, also -- another's wife.
mircea_popescu: i own a box. this box has crap on it. therefore... i ... delete the crap. and put something sane on./
mircea_popescu: which juncture gives you pause ?
asciilifeform: the utter futility of push-loading sanity.
asciilifeform: sanity must be sought.
trinque: whaat, isn't the whole thing here push-loading sanity?
mircea_popescu: but... if i own a box... therefore... i check and remove... crap.. and then... instal... sanity.
mircea_popescu: wtf.
asciilifeform: if you own -- as in built with own hands
mircea_popescu: own is own.
mircea_popescu: if i own, then.
asciilifeform: i thought thread was re hypothetical infected idjits
asciilifeform: and 'their' iron
trinque: why scare-quotes?
trinque: because they don't own it, nsa does
asciilifeform: trinque: because cuckoldry neh
mircea_popescu: there is no such distinction. if you own, whether because your wife brought you it and said "here, this is your daugther" or because gf brought home "here, this is new fucktoy".
mircea_popescu: if you own -- you own.
asciilifeform: point being, idjit boots up his tetrisator one day and finds ?????
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: tmsr is not a ux shop.
asciilifeform: so if you're maximizing him for wool, gotta do one thing, if for meat -- other
mircea_popescu: i am not maximizing anyone for anything.
asciilifeform: this is not a thing.
asciilifeform: if you're doing it, there is some logic.
mircea_popescu: this is the point. i'm neither the left pepsi can nor the right pepsi can and you're neither invited or allowed to choose me.
asciilifeform: well i suppose you can also do it because achieved enlightenment on lsd, or whichever, but this is harem , not forum, and not communicable
asciilifeform: is mircea_popescu's logic communicable ?
mircea_popescu: yes. if... i own... a box... i ~~~therefore~~~ remove... the crap on it. and then, install, non crap on it.
mircea_popescu: this is the whole logic that is, and that ever could be, involved in the matter.
asciilifeform: and box evaporates next morning, without fail. so work that went into 'install noncrap' ( vs merely 'format hdd' ) was burned.
mircea_popescu: whatever.
mircea_popescu: i don't care what happens tomorrow.
asciilifeform: 'whatever' is only ever uttered by folx who don't have to lift a finger.
mircea_popescu: i care what happened yesterday. and what happened yesterday was, i owned a box. and on it, i...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i literally, and entirely, don't give a shit what happens tomorrow.
asciilifeform: and yet you do some things and not others.
mircea_popescu: on the basis of previous things.
asciilifeform: d00d who 'dun care what tomorrow' stays on the cocaine yacht.
mircea_popescu: depends on dood.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-06#1666713 <- finally got around to try it and I can confirm it works perfectly fine on gnat 2016 from adacore, gcc 4.9.4☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 20:56 diana_coman: neah, it says it can't even see it then; will try another time with the adacore 4.9
asciilifeform: rather than screwing with software etc
asciilifeform: diana_coman: very neato
mircea_popescu: nice diana_coman
asciilifeform: diana_coman: share your gnatology with mod6
asciilifeform: ( how didja build gnat ? from where ? etc )
asciilifeform bbl, out of food
mircea_popescu is slightly amused we're back at http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-16#-121196☝︎
a111: Logged on 2013-02-16 14:17 Diablo-D3: people who are that rich dont hang out on IRC
diana_coman: used the pointers given by ave1 really
mircea_popescu: dumbfounding shitnonsense is this anyway. i do the things i do because they ARE! the right things to do. present fucking tense. not because i'm hopping such and such a tomorrow as'll make them retrospectively the right things. wtf is even this, inflatothink.
diana_coman: played a bit with ffa too; maybe I get some time to add to mod6's testing of it
asciilifeform: i betcha mircea_popescu plays fine game of chesss
mircea_popescu: middling. why ?
asciilifeform: given as he has a right-move oracle installed in him, and dun have to think any moves ahead
asciilifeform: i dun got an oracle
asciilifeform: and will say, thinking n moves ahead !=' femaleworry '
asciilifeform: though it is arduous, and i'd rather get oracle installed, somebody gotta say to me where .
asciilifeform: 'femaleworry' is idiotic because it's a decision algo that dun converge in constant time
asciilifeform: not because thinking.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> middling. why ? << Only middling when you play for the sport of it. IRL you decapitate opponent's king with bolt cutters and dare them to object
asciilifeform: i'll add that thinking per se dun have to make you predictable from game theoretical pov , the other major trap
asciilifeform: not if you own an rng.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not thinking at all ; but in any case : when there IS a fine oracle, why bother with more.
mircea_popescu: "do i own this box, yes/no" "if yes, why is there crap on it / if no why am i futzing with it".
phf: asciilifeform: presumably you have read pelevin's ддп(нн)
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/NoaB0 << More Alphabay lulz including etymology of where name came from
shinohai: " Public court filings revealed by the US Federal Government show that his use of Paypal in paying for a gold membership was helpful to the government in identifying his true identity."
shinohai: This is good for PayPalCoin
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687858 << simplistic, almost shamanistic though it is, there is perhaps useful trichotomy of heart-heart-gut, being three possible answers for "why" a given person does a given thing. heart because of how it makes her feel and how it makes the people around her feel ; head because it's cerebrally satisfying ; gut because gotta get the fucking show on the road already here.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 21:59 asciilifeform: i betcha mircea_popescu plays fine game of chesss
pete_dushenski: of course there are proportions at play, no one is 100% any one thing, but mp is at least 3/4 gut, stan at least 3/4 head, thus the 'how can you just do?' question
pete_dushenski prepares for hail storm of stones thrown at him for charlatanism
ben_vulpes: phrenology, even
BingoBoingo: Not charlatanism so much as Jewthink
pete_dushenski: pretty much eh
pete_dushenski: !~ticker
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 2793.3, Best ask: 2793.7, Bid-ask spread: 0.40000, Last trade: 2793.3, 24 hour volume: 72788.96715253, 24 hour low: 2226.3, 24 hour high: 2799.9, 24 hour vwap: None
BingoBoingo: OMG STILL CRASHING!
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2780.07, vol: 27541.42796078 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2640.016, vol: 13857.72139 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2785.8, vol: 72921.33033807 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2761.99, vol: 21584.28620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2788.0, vol: 14412.8671034 | Volume-weighted last average: 2768.10240903
pete_dushenski: speaking of facing the music, http://archive.is/Zv5gG
pete_dushenski: "Caskets can cost thousands of dollars to buy, and are even being sold in some major supermarket chains. But at the Coffin Club, members only need to supply their own materials. Russell Game is a club mentor but he is also making a coffin for himself. "It's so much cheaper than buying a coffin," he said."
ben_vulpes: in other boeckisms: https://blog.hboeck.de/archives/888-How-I-tricked-Symantec-with-a-Fake-Private-Key.html
ben_vulpes is regularly surprised at the thickness of derp found in the 'security community'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687877 << i hate to disappoint pete_dushenski , but i also think with gut. however, perhaps different section of gut than mircea_popescu .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:19 pete_dushenski: of course there are proportions at play, no one is 100% any one thing, but mp is at least 3/4 gut, stan at least 3/4 head, thus the 'how can you just do?' question
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687889 << ben_vulpes ponder the sheer hilarity of the 'they revoked key based on faux signature!11' by same derp who heckled the 'peter anvin' key affair☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:12 ben_vulpes: in other boeckisms: https://blog.hboeck.de/archives/888-How-I-tricked-Symantec-with-a-Fake-Private-Key.html
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: lol need more ileum, less duodenum!1
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687871 << sure, why?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:06 phf: asciilifeform: presumably you have read pelevin's ддп(нн)
asciilifeform: ( it's a compendium of shorts. which one was phf thinking of ? )
asciilifeform: 'диалектика переходного периода из ниоткуда в никуда'
asciilifeform: ( pretty great title, too )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't actually recall his role in the anvin affair
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: also, that you framed "i think with this" shows that... you're head. hate to break it to you. to "think with gut" is to choose a restaurant to eat at not to open a restaurant.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: review, http://trilema.com/2015/full-disclosure-4096-rsa-key-in-the-strongset-factored , http://trilema.com/2015/more-factored-rsa-keys-and-assorted-other-considerations , http://trilema.com/2016/psa-hanno-bock-still-a-deceitful-shitbag
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: what i meant is, i dun have necessarily a communicable logic for why i operate in particular way, and if pressed , tend to react similarly to mircea_popescu's
asciilifeform: ' the oracle in my arse told me to do it, and fuckoff.jpg '
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687873 << lol monkeymen☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:15 shinohai: " Public court filings revealed by the US Federal Government show that his use of Paypal in paying for a gold membership was helpful to the government in identifying his true identity."
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: only you'd know that. twas just my 2c from 10k feet.
asciilifeform: gotta wonder what was the thought process. 'i'ma pay for dope with shitpal just this ONCE' ??
pete_dushenski: bbl
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687870 << 'do i own this cow? if yes, why is it not sausage yet'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:06 mircea_popescu: "do i own this box, yes/no" "if yes, why is there crap on it / if no why am i futzing with it".
asciilifeform: can milk cow. if it gives milk. whole puzzle was, as i understand, 'can haz milk? or go straight to meat'
asciilifeform: ( and do you even ~want~ this particular milk. )
asciilifeform: other thing is, even if you don't want for anything the 'milk' (cpu cycles etc) of pwned derp, and simply going for max materiel damage, formatting hdd is not necessarily the max
asciilifeform: ( set him up as a relay for whatever type of pr0n is banned where he is, leak his cc, etc )
asciilifeform: 'if job is worth doing, it is worth doing well' or how did it go.
phf: asciilifeform: i was thinking the one числа (or perhaps it's called мощь великого?), that was re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687868 and the general discussion of "acting from gut"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:05 asciilifeform: not if you own an rng.
asciilifeform: aaaaahaha
asciilifeform: i suspect mircea_popescu would luvv that piece
asciilifeform: iirc it even exists in a (middling) engl translation
asciilifeform: dun suppose phf has a 133337w4rez txt of this.
phf: no, unfortunately, hardcover book picked up on a moscows trip
asciilifeform: of the translation, i mean
asciilifeform: ( original is easy to find )
phf: шы еруку фт утп мукышщт?
phf: erm
phf: is there an eng version?
asciilifeform: бнопня вхрюк
asciilifeform: there is, some brit translated
asciilifeform: ( and iirc the result was not wholly barfalicious, even )
asciilifeform: http://www.electroniclibrary21.ru/literature/pelewin/41.shtml << generation p in engl
asciilifeform: iirc it was this d00d. bromfield.
asciilifeform: who did the other one
phf: i found a "собрание сочинений" pack of his english texts, but it doesn't have dpp, nor is amazon etc. turning up a translated version.
asciilifeform: 'The USSR, which they'd begun to renovate and improve at about the time when Tatarsky decided to change his profession, improved so much that it ceased to exist (if a state is capable of entering nirvana, that's what must have happened in this case)...'
asciilifeform: notbad.jpg
asciilifeform: translationwise
asciilifeform: would like to find the one of 'numbers' tho.
asciilifeform: ' Meanwhile the television was still showing the same old repulsive physiognomies that had been sickening the viewers for the last twenty years. Now they were saying exactly the same things they used to jail other people for, except that they were far bolder, far more decisive and radical. Tatarsky often found himself imagining Germany in 1946, with Doktor Goebbels shrieking hysterically on the radio about the abyss in
asciilifeform: to which fascism had led the nation, with the former Kom-mandant of Auschwitz heading the Commission for the Detention of Nazi Criminals, and SS generals explaining in clear and simple words the importance of liberal values, while the whole cabal was led by the newly enlightened Gauleiter of Eastern Prussia. Tatarsky, of course, hated most of the manifestations of Soviet power, but he still couldn't understand w
asciilifeform: hy it was worth exchanging an evil empire for an evil banana republic that imported its bananas from Finland.'
asciilifeform: ^ recommended for engl. folx.
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu would prolly snoar, however, this setting is old hat to him. )
phf: that, and subtitled Brat is pretty much all you need to understand moscow in the 90s :p
phf: ahaha, http://www.jstor.org.sci-hub.cc/stable/23349218?seq=3#page_scan_tab_contents "THE MONSTROUS AGGREGATE OF THE SOCIAL: TOWARD BIOPOLITICS IN VICTOR PELEVIN'S WORK", haven't read but third page has a section titled "Biopolitics in Foucault"
asciilifeform: i'll confess that i always pictured phf as literally the hero from 'generationp'
asciilifeform: given as i missed out on the pleasure of the '90s in person, and he -- not
asciilifeform: 'While he was working in the kiosk (it went on for a little less than a year), Tatarsky acquired two new qualities. The first was a cynicism as boundless as the view from the Ostankino television tower; the second was something quite remarkable and inexplicable. Tatarsky only had to glance at a customer's hands to know whether he could short-change him and by exactly how much, whether he could be insulting to him, w
asciilifeform: hether there was any likelihood of being passed a false banknote and whether he could pass on a false note himself. There was no definite system involved in all this. Sometimes a fist like a hairy water-melon would appear in the little window, but it was obvious that Tatarsky could quite safely send its owner to hell and beyond. Then sometimes Tatarsky's heart would skip a beat in fright at the sight of a slim female hand
asciilifeform: with manicured nails.'
asciilifeform: mega-b00k.
asciilifeform will even re-read in engl., which previously could not have conceived of wanting to do.
phf: hah, nah, i'm more of petka from chapayev i pustota. i spent the 90s with amateur esotericists. i didn't actually get to play the businessman, so didn't acquire any of these skills
asciilifeform: well specifically the mushroom d00d
asciilifeform: ''And what will it do for me?' 'You'll see soon enough,' replied Gireiev. 'You'll be drying them for winter yourself.''
phf: aah