tmsr - Log 2017-06-26

sina: I am trying to program the following behaviour, a user can run "gossipc --add-peer --host 1.1.1.1 --port 5000 --name sina" and gossipc will select one of the available (not bogus) RSA keys generated by the ongoing key generation process and say something like "peer added. advertise/exchange the following pubkey to that peer:"

sina: but this presents a chicken/egg problem, where the peer "initiating" the addition will need to then advertise that key to the other peer and wait for a key back, and then initiate an update to the peer data to add in the advertised pubkey ☟︎

sina: any thoughts? does that even make sense? basically it's caused because I am trying to use a different pubkey per peer, if there was just 1 pubkey it would be a standard out of band RSA pubkey exchange

sina: or should it be a three-phase thing where 1. each peer advertises their name/host/port to the other 2. each receives the others pubkey 3. adds it to the peer info

deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CBCE9595FFD44B5848895D2216E07BF49549F3724C839F7BC77492932CD12B70 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1598...3303 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '84.41.117.181 (ssh-rsa key from 84.41.117.181 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown BA BIH)

deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CBCE9595FFD44B5848895D2216E07BF49549F3724C839F7BC77492932CD12B70 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1462...5079 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '84.41.117.181 (ssh-rsa key from 84.41.117.181 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown BA BIH)

BingoBoingo: ISRAELJERUSALEMGAYPARADE An Israeli woman draped with a rainbow gay pride flag with the Star of David walks past Israeli border policemen during the annual Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade on July 21, 2016.

BingoBoingo: Three people carrying Jewish Pride flags were asked to leave the Chicago Dyke March on Saturday in part because they “repeatedly expressed support for Zionism”"

sina: TL;DR, Russian gay activist who triggered crackdown/kidnap/murder on gay people in Chechnya (aside from a bunch of other stupid shit) is also very anti-semite

sina: it's almost as if being a homosexual has nothing to do with your political orientation :P

deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/354708EE43E41E72C8E4227529A7F2A75D9B7D1EDB29D174008FF2CE74FA3A5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1788...6957 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '192.167.72.43 (ssh-rsa key from 192.167.72.43 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (biofisica-35.unipv.it. IT 25 PV)

deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/354708EE43E41E72C8E4227529A7F2A75D9B7D1EDB29D174008FF2CE74FA3A5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1518...3873 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '192.167.72.43 (ssh-rsa key from 192.167.72.43 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (biofisica-35.unipv.it. IT 25 PV)

jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2532.21, vol: 10188.40615120 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2537.006, vol: 5061.79062 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2488.5, vol: 16447.74479774 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2880.064726, vol: 8307.21190000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2498.81, vol: 5140.30973793 | Volume-weighted last average: 2577.0287227

ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-22#1673500 << most folks who bitch in the manner of "oh noes, rising rents and stagnant wages" have not meaningfully pursued higher wages. not a matter of "rich as know how to get" but "thought this rich was enough forever" which is very foolish. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-22 19:48 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-22#1673487 << i find it lulzy that folx will happily say this to someone to whom they would ~not~ necessarily say 'kill yerself nao, slice lengthwise' . but at the same time the phrases have EQUIVALENT meaning, because at some point you are already as rich as you possibly know how to become.

a111: Logged on 2017-06-25 17:43 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-25#1674299 << i suspect if you manually upped mimisbrunnr (until he implements the self voice) it would quote now

ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-25#1674299 << yeah, it suxx, i hear you. probably going do the right thing like phf and use timestamps ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-25 16:07 mp-en-managua: ah, ben_vulpes' thingee dun read outloud huh. also the windows original product keys are a little lengthy.

sina: thanks for the headsup on that, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-01#1418726 looks interesting but quite different from what I'm making :P ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-03-01 03:53 asciilifeform: mats: the idea is, a kind of line-speed (GB ethernet) wall, where crud goes in, and valid in-wot gossipd out.

sina: ben_vulpes: I'm not smart enough to make what's described there, just implementing the spec I saw for amusement

ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-25#1674280 << don't forget that you can put a holy 2-stroke in the secret apu slot of the slavecycle at the ghetto craft table and walk away with the prized freedombike! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-25 06:30 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Felt that. The thing is gotta learn the more mundane feelings to learn the novel ones

ben_vulpes: on the "laptops suck" thread, now that i'm using an adult workstation most of the time, my hands start hurting after a bare thirty minutes on a 13" laptop kb ☟︎

BingoBoingo: Or as an alternative there's a number of new manufacter 2-cycle scooters which do not require registration due to various "moped" exemptions. Needs to be under 50cc displacement which means riding machine with 1/4 of a lawnmower engine or twice a string trimmer engine.

sina: alright. the gossipd thingo is 0.0.1 implemented. peers can communicate, each session (fetch messages) is mediated by deedbot style OTP with per peer-pair RSA keys (no GPG shell asciilifeform, using libtomcrypt). I wrote a tiny client to add peers, exchange keys, broadcast msgs and view stored msgs. there is a README.

sina: it's still a little rough around the edges so you can break it pretty easily if you disconnect during a session or send bad data or whatever like that. ☟︎

sina: tmsr trigger warnings: it uses sqlite, TCP, OOP but I tried to make it modular enough that those things could easily be changed. It isn't the lighthouse or linespeed thing asciilifeform has mentioned, I just tried to follow the spec on trilema.com

erlehmann: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674429 << “of course i've validated my input, officer, i swear” ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 09:59 sina: it's still a little rough around the edges so you can break it pretty easily if you disconnect during a session or send bad data or whatever like that.

sina: erlehmann: yup. if you look through the code you see I do validate inputs as they come in on the socket for example, but I noticed while I was developing that there are some more subtle edge cases and that's what I was referring to

sina: erlehmann: for example https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd/blob/master/gossipd/cmd/gossipc.py#L68 ...it throws an error if you try to add a peer before an RSA key is available

sina: erlehmann: I do hope to be able to code a naughty host counter up, still thinking about that

shinohai: Not bad mod6 .... want to get with you later this evening on the new Makefiles thing if you have a few minutes to spare

erlehmann: if your build-system is not recording two dozen dependency relationship for a simple hello world program, it is pretty much a non-build-system

erlehmann: shinohai for a massive real-world C++ workload, build https://github.com/linleyh/liberation-circuit

BingoBoingo: In not news, Buttstamp now introduce Litecoin trading to two cans and a string too

mod6: <+shinohai> Not bad mod6 .... want to get with you later this evening on the new Makefiles thing if you have a few minutes to spare << sure thing. did you get to try it out?

shinohai: Haven't gotten to try it yet, but want to run the full suite of tests as soon as I get back home this afternoon. ;)

asciilifeform: in other lulz >> https://archive.is/Iqf3R << see also ye olde 'fly in it? i won't ~walk under it~'

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674428 << fwiw i carefully read all of it. asciilifeform's verdict: very much a gabriel_laddel-ization of gossipd. does 0 of the necessary work, and drags in 5+GB of liquishit deps (python, sql, some derp's crypto lib.) the amount of this that would have to be rewritten, from the ground, is 100%. not even useful as illustration of anything, because NONE of the actually complicated moving parts of a ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 09:58 sina: if anyone wants to play https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd

asciilifeform: proper gossipd, are in there.

asciilifeform: trinque: possibly, but i missed

asciilifeform: TomServo: lulzy. see also the infamous light bulb.

asciilifeform: 'Ever since IS&T started to undergo "The Transformation", there has been a deliberate and systematic attempt to change Computing at MIT for the worse. Services that have been relied on for years have been discontinued and turned down, frequently without notice. Infrastructure critical to running MIT has been outsourced to cloud services during "emergency maintenance". Most of these changes had minimal impact on students and faculty, ☟︎

asciilifeform: until IS&T suddenly and unceremoniously decided to renumber all of campus onto a private, NAT'd address space. Some buildings have already been migrated, with same-day notice, causing outages of services hosted in those buildings.'

asciilifeform: gold.

asciilifeform: hey, they gotta keep inmat^H^H^H^H^Hstudents from hosting warez/trb/etc terrorisms somehow!1111

asciilifeform: 'Although the ranges sold initially were unused, IS&T announced that the entire upper half of MITnet would be sold, and that buildings would need to be renumbered.' << holy fuq mircea_popescu was right

asciilifeform: they spent it all on... ethertardium?! ☟︎

asciilifeform: picture 'upper half of british crown's jewels will be sold...' mentioned in passing in some unrelated crud

asciilifeform: 'Instead of being renumbered into publicly-accessible IP ranges, IS&T is moving all of campus into RFC-1918 10/8 addresses, and enforcing the campus firewall, which will be made up of Palo Alto 7050 devices, which are best known for their deep-packet inspection feature, App-ID.' << ahahaha so it ~is~ about zapping unauthorized nonethertardium nodes etc

asciilifeform: or, alternatively, desperate usg dod-like last gasp to keep massive fleet of winblows boxen properly declitorized and infibulated

asciilifeform: great lulzfind, TomServo

asciilifeform: ty for posting.

asciilifeform: ( https://archive.is/Tr9PF , linked within, also interesting : 'Led by IS&T’s vice president, John Charles, the ambitious reorganization began in February 2015 and aims to spur innovation through agile software development practices adopted from industry. Charles emphasizes that this is not a typical reorganization, but rather a complete transformation of MIT’s IT department. ... Many longtime employees have resigned ... Charles,

asciilifeform: who was interviewed over email for this story, said he “cannot comment on individual decisions and personnel matters,” other than to say that all personnel matters were “handled in accordance with Institute HR policies.”' )

asciilifeform: erlehmann: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674460 << 'redo' is theoretically neat ( at least when compared to gnumake ) but - and i studied it, since you last mentioned it - it strikes me as a near-miss attempt to invent 'v' ☝︎

asciilifeform: gnumake is one of those turds that ~every serious user, eventually tries to rebuild, out of whatever is at hand, because of sheer barfalicity

asciilifeform: but the generalized, correct incarnation of 'automatic dependency graph walker' is : v.

mod6: <+shinohai> kk, will ping you when I get back - sorry for the pm tag this weekend :/ << no worries at all

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674434 << has hyperthreading ever actually worked ? ( see also... http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/hyper-threading ) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 12:16 sina: situations, dangerously misbehave when hyper-threading is enabled.

asciilifeform: even on chips where it did not cause halt-and-catch-fire, it was always a sort of hardware equivalent of ye olde 'ramdoubler' scamola -- 'make luser think he has 2x the cores'

asciilifeform: was introduced right when moore's law first was beginning to sputter out, and new ways of bamboozling idiot new-iron chasers were being devised - 'let's up the clock speed but cut the work per-cycle', etc

asciilifeform: so intel shat out ht, aka 'i can't believe it's not a cpu core'

erlehmann: asciilifeform i am curious, how does v walk dependencies and non-existence dependencies related to files?

asciilifeform: erlehmann: what means to walk 'non-existence dependencies' ?

erlehmann: i was of the impression that it presses a specific view of the world out of a) source code b) patches c) wot

asciilifeform: if a vpatch refers to a hash of a nonexistent file, the process stops.

asciilifeform: thing is, nowhere is it written that a v program ~must~ be a gnudiff-like thing

asciilifeform: can easily have process invocations (e.g. compiler invokes) rather than filename-hash

asciilifeform: and they'd trigger, if hash not found immediately. and so you get a maketron.

asciilifeform: current vtrons assume that all of the signed nodes exist on disk already.

asciilifeform: but this is not intrinsic.

asciilifeform: ( so long as the signers, sign the hashes, and you still have a cryptographically healthy frozen history -- it is entirely acceptable to specify also how the inputs are to be produced. )

erlehmann: apart from separation of concerns (tree-walking vs. invoked programs), what other gains are to be had by using a hypothetical v maketron instead of the existing redo maketron?

asciilifeform: erlehmann: it isn't clear to me that these belong in separate programs, and that a system ought to have two tree walkers.

asciilifeform: one - proper one - suffices. and it is easier to produce from a generalized vtron, than to produce a vtron from, e.g., 'redo'.

asciilifeform: in general, the tumour mass of 'i have 200 utils that do ~same thing on my box, and not a single one ~quite~ works entirely' is to be flamethrowered.

erlehmann: i am willing to abandon my redo efforts if v maketron suits my needs better. does there exist a v implementation in <500 lines of shell? ☟︎

asciilifeform: erlehmann: shell - afaik not

erlehmann: i chose bourne shell specifically because redo runs everywhere and i consider it stupid to need a C++ compiler or python interpreter for building stuff.

asciilifeform: ... but not to need bourne shell ?

asciilifeform: i have systems here with no bourne shell.

asciilifeform: but with c compiler.

asciilifeform: nothing wrong with that.

erlehmann: in terms of v, i have only produced this piece of questionable sanity http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/vdiff

asciilifeform: but gotta remember, erlehmann , that one man's 'this is ON EVERY SYSTEM, motherfuckers, not an optional shitlib' is another's optional shitlib.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: that looks a lot like my original vdiff.

erlehmann: asciilifeform i often do stuff in shell because major implementations fuck it up. this, for example: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/unicode

asciilifeform: all in-band signalling is subtly wrong.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581252 << see thread, for instance. ☝︎

erlehmann: the part from “while read dt source tr _;” on is solely to prevent bad stuff happening

asciilifeform: maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but it'd take same, IF NOT GREATER, effort, for asciilifeform to ascertain the truth of this statement, as to rewrite the linked proggy

asciilifeform: which is a problem.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: the +++ thing was actually a more serious problem than you might walk away thinking on first reading -- because it is physically impossible to fix it without MAKING NEWLINES SIGNIFICANT semantically

asciilifeform: it is indeed

asciilifeform: so if you wanted to distinguish 'proper' vs 'bug' +++, you would have to make the grammar CONSIDERABLY more complicated, and transform the ENTIRE input text, and then un-transform it BACK, every time

asciilifeform: see also gpg's '-' idiocy

asciilifeform: and you would also have to not-disregard newlines

asciilifeform: which in fact get mutilated by ~every piece of shit attached to the net

asciilifeform: somehow LEAVE MY MOTHERFUCKING BITSTREAM ALONE is not an option if you're transmitting 'ascii text'

asciilifeform: ( see also mega-thread , http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-29#901052 ) ☝︎

asciilifeform: noshit.jpg

asciilifeform: process-input-until-next-MAGICSTRING ( aka in-band signalling ) is inescapably and fundamentally braindamaged.

erlehmann: asciilifeform there might be one detail why it is possible to make a v maketron, but no v redotron. does v try to work out all dependencies before processing?

asciilifeform: erlehmann: indeed it does. read the source.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: or at least read ben_vulpes's classic article re subj, http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system

asciilifeform: he explains it better than i ever did.

erlehmann: the point of redo vs. make is that make does the same: build tree, walk tree. the problem is that this may need in a second treewalking phase and a third etc. pp. until the build becomes stable

asciilifeform: erlehmann: i'm not sure the existence of partial-builds is even justified.

asciilifeform: because i'm quite certain that the existence of large codebases is NOT justified.

erlehmann: so redo turns the process on its head: build is atomic, but redo only claims to have a tree when all is built.

asciilifeform: whereas small codebases build quickly enough that partial rebuilds are unnecessary.

erlehmann: current number of files that OAMI converted and uploaded to wikimedia commons stands at 35646

asciilifeform: wassat

erlehmann: a bot i wrote, that travels PubMed Central open access publications, takes supplementary materials, fixes common errors in metadata, converts the files to other formats and uploads them.

asciilifeform: what's that got to do with whether a maketron ought to be able to do partial builds ?

erlehmann: well, full rebuilds are infeasible, in terms of time and computing power resources i have available

asciilifeform: if 'full builds are infeasible', your tree is mis-structured. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and there are things in it that ought to be separate trees.

erlehmann: how would you structure it? programmatically, it does not matter if there are 3 videos or 30000, a “partial build” just converts the ones that need converting and uploading.

asciilifeform: ( and noshit.jpg, 'entire works of mankind as 1 tree' leads to 'infeasible in terms of time and computing power available' )

asciilifeform: erlehmann: you DON'T TOUCH THE ALREADY CONVERTED ONES omfg

asciilifeform: they don't belong being visible !

asciilifeform: why the fuck would it CHANGE ?!

asciilifeform: that's the thing with v : inputs NEVER CHANGE

asciilifeform: immutable, motherfuckers, datastructure.

asciilifeform: want change ? that'll be a new patch, and 1 or more new sigs.

asciilifeform: no changing-of-the-past. ☟︎

asciilifeform: not only sensible, but thermonukes away entire, as you see, ~classes~ of misproblem.

asciilifeform: nope. outputs of presses to a given node on the flow - will NEVER change.

asciilifeform: outputs of presses to ~new~ nodes, will, naturally, give unseen-before output.

asciilifeform: but outputs of presses to OLD nodes -- will give same output 1000 yrs from now, as today.

asciilifeform: this is essential to v.

asciilifeform: immutable past is a prerequisite to ~authenticable~ past, and v gives it.

asciilifeform: ( what's a 'misproblem' ? let's say it is a problem that only exists because of misapplied concepts earlier 'up the stack' . see also the immortal prof. kokkarinen's 'alien problem', http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-26#934852 thread . ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2014-11-26 01:11 asciilifeform: reminds of ilkka kokkarinen's 'alien problems':

asciilifeform: erlehmann: yes

asciilifeform: erlehmann: 1) i have nfi what it does on corner cases 2) i have nfi how consistent is it across unixen, and how it misbehaves with, e.g., crapolade turdicode characters in the inputs

asciilifeform: gnudiff, i found, in fact DID misbehave, on many a box

asciilifeform: and produced differing orderings depending on the 'charset' set on the machine

asciilifeform: which SHOULD NOT BE A THING

asciilifeform: and i say this as an orc, who uses cyrillic

asciilifeform: MY SHELL IS STILL SET TO THE KING'S ENGLISH

asciilifeform: for fucks sake.

asciilifeform: certainly not in the form offered.

asciilifeform: and the necessary bits -- reduce to a slightly generalized vtron.

a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 17:41 erlehmann: i guess with immutable inputs, redo would not be necessary.

asciilifeform: ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has quit [shutting down] << lolwat

phf: "[Global Notice] Hi all. We need to take services (NickServ, ChanServ and friends down for some quick database tweaking so they'll be unavailable for a few minutes. I'll update via WALLOPS when completed."

asciilifeform: ahahaha

asciilifeform: from earlier, lulz, 'In April 2017, an unexpected and disruptive change was made to the MIT network: the sale of historically MIT-allocated IP address ranges to external entities such as Amazon. The sale wasn't announced to the MIT community until after it had taken effect. ' ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: gotta luvv the folx so slow on the uptake, who imagine being in 'a community' while having already been subsumed into usg faceless mass.

asciilifeform: and that 'your' horse is somehow still 'your' AFTER you join kolhoz.

ben_vulpes: > sold via OTC over the course of the next month, to ensure it will have a negligible effect on the market

shinohai: Just another Lame Ethereum ICO that raised millions and now gonna dump to pay for hookers, etc.

asciilifeform: meanwhile, 'thief cries thief', https://archive.is/vgrDP << organized pantsuit ouster of linus t. slowly crystallizing...

asciilifeform: https://archive.is/7bx0V << upstream in same thread << apparently he tried to draw a line, 'stfu with the monolithic unreadable patches'