asciilifeform: lolk
ben_vulpes: move, drive further, waste more time in cars, depreciate ice assets faster, depreciate spinal column faster
ben_vulpes: all things i want more of in my life, just like regular americans
mircea_popescu: move dude. not fucking commute. move.
ben_vulpes: talking about driving to get the compost.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj, what exactly stops ben_vulpes from ordering his minions around via a net pipe ?
BingoBoingo: Well, imagine you are the tender root of a delicious vegetable plant. Would you rather cuddle up to soft peatmoss extracted from fridgid canada or rough coir that feels like sack cloth from tropics
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: metaphor is rather thick, i cannot see through it
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what minions? what order?
mircea_popescu: he's merely suggesting coconuts migrate.
asciilifeform: your software co. ben_vulpes
asciilifeform: why do you have to ~go~ to it
ben_vulpes: raging sea of dopamine at haus is difficult to carve focus space out of
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Rub handful of peat against forearm, repeat with coir. Note which gives aggressive ropeburn like injury.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aaah so the usual wife-escape lol
mircea_popescu: is dopamine the good one ?
ben_vulpes: child is fairly engaging too.
asciilifeform would not believe that this is a thing, if he had not worked with at least a dozen of d00dz who admitted to it
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in college, hope and desperation meet : http://68.media.tumblr.com/78ceeb12e436ee751be8b934d5724392/tumblr_mo8b74ORIF1suscy8o1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes is weak, especially to joys of flesh and fatherhood
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/02/28/the-contemporary-classic-car-phenomenon-explained/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The Contemporary Classic Car Phenomenon, explained.
ben_vulpes: escape is a rather mean characterization, asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: o look, trump to bring back non-niggered nasa ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: at one point city was digging up water pipes on my street, drill all day long, i would go elsewhere. how is this not 'escape' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwu
asciilifeform: t
asciilifeform: from where he will get it? time machine ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: would you rather go watch pipes be dug out of the ground than whatever it is you went elsewhere to do?
mircea_popescu: wherever politicians get things. the labels vat.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: did not only not care to sit and watch, but to listen, hence went elsewhere. which from ben_vulpes's description, he is doing also, but from wife, not from drills
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaah yes.
asciilifeform: догоним и перегоним.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: to entertain your scenario, i go elsewhere because i'd rather watch the big hydraulics.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i admit, i watched for a spell.
ben_vulpes: i would watch all day.
asciilifeform: but once you've seen 3 sections of pipe replaced, you've seen'em all
mircea_popescu: supposedly it's different with kids.
asciilifeform: however i probably ~could~ (and at one point did) watch planes take off , all day. so point taken.
ben_vulpes: not the pipes necessarily, but the garden; dog; wife; child; engines of my own...
BingoBoingo: !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/llYjE/?raw=true
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/qntra-s-qntr-february-2017-report/ << Qntra - Qntra (S.QNTR) February 2017 Report
BingoBoingo: Moar posts than last month, less words. Still recalibrating to post-Hussein Bahamas lulz
asciilifeform: in other lelz, http://www.socialmatter.net/2017/02/13/communism-fondly-remembered-longing-tradition
mircea_popescu: ahahaha what.
asciilifeform: '...by the time that the communist states actually fell, they weren’t to the left of the American mainstream: they were to the right.'
mircea_popescu: and thoroughly reviled for their verbose impotence.
mircea_popescu: also, "american mainstream" is a fake news construction. it exists in no place, certainly not the us.
asciilifeform: turns out there are worse things than impotently verbose brezhnev, whod'vethunkit
mircea_popescu: it can be found the same place the "kingom of heavens" can be found.
asciilifeform: it exists in the same way that the weight of mt.everest exists, even if there is no scale to weight it on.
asciilifeform: *weigh it
mircea_popescu: absolutely not.
mircea_popescu: it exists strictly in the way "the heavenly legions" existed, to keep suleyman from constantinople.
mircea_popescu: plenty of rank imbeciles died with the firm conviction that they exist ; and all the better.
asciilifeform: you can make a true statement about it -- e.g., 'eisenhower era's american mainstream did not include tulpas and transpuppies; obummer's -- does'
mircea_popescu: hardly.
mircea_popescu: this is no more of a true statement than "pin can hold 40 angels but only 3 seraphims"
asciilifeform: statements of ~psychiatric~ fact are tricky (see also thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-07#1579090 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-07 15:31 asciilifeform: 'well ~i~! know now that i'm not an acorn. but do THE SQUIRRELS know??????'
mircea_popescu: but in any case, unless and until you read it in trilema, it can not be said to be part of a mainstream of any kind.
mircea_popescu: misinformed ninnies may be confused as to the exact spelling of "trilema", which is a sad testament of the poor quality of public education available to them and naught more.
asciilifeform: just earlier mircea_popescu had a thread re 'in 1970s chix did not yet wash properly' -- this is distinct from 'cultural mainstream' ? how so
mircea_popescu: how is poor hygiene cultural ?
mircea_popescu: they're uncivilised louts ; today as whenever. it is after all a fucking colony, not a real place, neh ?
asciilifeform: cultural as in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537241 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:31 mircea_popescu: ie, young brazillian chick WILL have to have her cooking checked for shit, because apparently wash hands is not universally comprehended in brazil.
mircea_popescu: to understand our anthropology basics : if the item has mass, it is a proper subject of civilisation ; if the item doth not have mass, it is a matter of culture.
asciilifeform: the louse is small, but mass, he has.
mircea_popescu: thereby, gravestones, civilisation, poetry, culture, engines, civilisation, cooking recipes, culture, and so following.
asciilifeform: the habit that guarantees the louse, however, has no mass.
mircea_popescu: stupidity is not culture in any case.
mircea_popescu: you can't speak of "the native culture" for exactly this reason. the indians have no culture, and inasmuch as they do not, they're not people.
mircea_popescu: which is why they burn so well.
mircea_popescu: the ~presence~ of artefacts doth make a civilisation ; the same presence of notions makes a culture. the absence of objects does not make "the alternative civilisation of africa consisting of not having anything". absence is not a thing.
mircea_popescu: chick that has no fucking idea she should wash isn't part of "the unwashed culture", she's part of nothing.
asciilifeform: 'lice are fact of life' is a notion, not merely the absence of one
mircea_popescu: sounds more like a fancy.
mircea_popescu: do you have any ? the planet uranus is also "a fact of life", in some distant sense.
asciilifeform: if i had to pick between, e.g., jonathan swift's, lice, or the life of homo walmarticus, it would not be a hard choice to go with the former
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear you've there depicted anymore than an escherian stairwell.
mircea_popescu: perhaps "if you had to" you'd climb to infinity on the left rather than descend to infinity on the right. but inasmuch as it's a nonsensical construction, the counterfactual will stay nonfactual.
mircea_popescu: you understand this, yes, not anything that can be said necessarily means something.
asciilifeform: i'm still trying to puzzle out if i even disagree with mircea_popescu , upstack
mircea_popescu: ha-ha!
mircea_popescu: the one true merit of philosophy.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the importance of cutting short the gypsy's pretense that he lives in an alt-country ; the grubfilth's pretense that he has an alt-hygiene, the neoprotestant's pretense that he has an alt-religion (discoivered it himself, he did!) and so on is key. a "vegan" is not someone who "has an alternative cookbook" but an imbecile who doesn't know how and what to eat. and so on.
asciilifeform: dunno that all of the barbarians had ~same~ barbarism, tho. and you need a word to refer to the differences.
mircea_popescu: the young girl is not "an alternate woman" but a not-yet-woman.
asciilifeform: if some women grew from girls, and others - from abused iguanas, we would probably keep around a word to refer to the 2 types
mircea_popescu: the etymology of the very word is instructive. barbarism comes from the greek hurrdurr, and it literally as well as onomatopoetically denotes that ... they do not have a thing.
asciilifeform: ^ kindergarten basic
asciilifeform: but the greeks only had access to a few types of hurrdurr
mircea_popescu: they went to india.
asciilifeform: and rome went to china. it ~didn't take.
mircea_popescu: i dunno that anyone ever met more kinds.
mircea_popescu: fucking bactria ffs.
mircea_popescu: the question was as to how many kinds they met. it is altogether likely alexander is the one men who met most kinds of barbarians.
asciilifeform: seems plausible.
mircea_popescu: if nothing else, the anecdote that his perception was so flattened through experience he failed on first pass to comprehend actual monkeys are not physically barbarians just like all the others should be dispositive.
asciilifeform: maybe hernan cortes beat him.
mircea_popescu: maybe.
mircea_popescu: but be this as it may, i can't distinguish nor am i inclined to distinguish j supran's pretense that he engages in "science" from random wanna-be-trilema online publication's pretense that it describes "the mainstream" from random wonderdiet late night cable sleazemarketer's "salvation cuisine" from any of the rest of the gunk. they are exactly the same thing, and the word to denote them exists already. barbar.
asciilifeform: this is what 'for entomologists only' is about
mircea_popescu: justabout.
asciilifeform: to 'civilian' -- 'ew, bugs'; but to the d00d who has to pick the right type of organophosphate to spray -- they are 1,001 species.
mircea_popescu: im not even sure any sort of meaningful speciation has yet been either found, described or howsoever vaguely proposed.
mircea_popescu: i mean the kitchen cockroach is not kitchen cockroach sp as opposed to bedroom cockroach just because that's where they happened to be captured.
mircea_popescu: there has to be some sort of definite difference in something, legs, mandibula, reproductive organs, something somewhere must allow classification in the proper sense to have a classification.
mircea_popescu: if we took samantha cocks or whatever her name was and made her "a scientist" and took the supurating jeoffrey and made him "an engineer", they'd what ? go right to it without skipping a beat, that's what the "revolving door" even denotes.
asciilifeform: at one point it was possible to distinguish, at the very least, dextro- from laevo-rotary cockroaches - e.g., the 'ten things canned ammo vendors don't want you to know! and the forty methods of instant prayer healing with colloidal silver!' -- vs -- 'save AFRICA!!1 from climate!'
mircea_popescu: "there's only one bug in socialism"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not entirely sure that ability to distinguish wasn't more of a symptom of the cockroach working than anything else. "i can distinguish tarantula that bit me from tarantula that did not" is scarcely a quote after linnaeus.
asciilifeform: the two groups described virtually never meet , in usa, they have separate lolmarts to shop in, separate fishwraps to read, etc.
mircea_popescu: different, how ? corporations, both, trying to advertise, both, hiring the same fucking tv crews, pr agencies, what is the specific difference ?
mircea_popescu: man fired from one can become part of the other and back and forth forever, "i just work here" etcetera. there's no substance i can discern to the proposed classification whatsoever.
asciilifeform: was thinking of the inmates, not the jailers
mircea_popescu: can you imagine deposed roman emperor moving to china to become confucian scholar ?
asciilifeform: mno
mircea_popescu: well then...
asciilifeform: point!
mircea_popescu: what, because one set eats at fastfood and other set eats at fastfood they are now different ? words may be powerful, but they're not this fucking powerful already.
asciilifeform: incidentally, i gotta wonder, who specifically is responsible for the 'fourty-one things THEY DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW about $idiocy' crapolade that has displaced ~all other ads on www ? it even exists in ru .
mircea_popescu: the "metrics" delusion.
asciilifeform: but same idiocy, on ~every~ 'mainstream' www.
mircea_popescu: at some point when the "web community" faggots were trying to get round two of dotcom bubble inflated with "web 2.0" and similar gimmicks,
asciilifeform: not simply similar, but ~same~
mircea_popescu: they put out the goebbelsian lie that "web is measurable"
mircea_popescu: it most patently is not, in contrast to anything else - which is measurable, but meaninglessly so, the web is not measurable fucking period.
mircea_popescu: this turned into a fashion.
mircea_popescu: and by that fashion, little tidbits of text were "Scored" through you know, SCIENTIFIC !!11 process like "ab testing" (i kid you not, they all do the same basic statistics wronglyt inthe same ways)
mircea_popescu: and it must have been the face of the dice that fell up.
asciilifeform: nuts.
mircea_popescu: but this is, no histrionics, no rhetorics, no exaggeration, my expert, considered and final view on the matter.
asciilifeform: the disconnect from actual 'turkey usd' reality must be total.
mircea_popescu: they "ran some tests" in the manner that gave us "hillary is looking past trump" and this was the result.
mircea_popescu: everyone else just cribbed it.
asciilifeform: not even 'severe', as in a schizophrenic's disconnect, but total, as in vegetable.
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
mircea_popescu: to quote that isaac dude.
mircea_popescu: this is the power of the lazy retard, someone somewhere once counted airplanes, they got the conclusion they're msotly full, and everyone's just mindlessly repeating it hence. as per http://trilema.com/2014/a-practical-exercise-for-people-who-cant-afford-airfare/
mircea_popescu: and a very fine point in case here, from my own personal experience, is that xapo sad faggot, wences casares.
mircea_popescu: he came to my country, introduced himself as "an investor", and made some statements.
mircea_popescu: i had since opportunity to verify all of them, and they are all false. he's as much of a businessman as any random redditard, which specifically includes pirate, the silk road dork, etcetera.
mircea_popescu: this is the entirety of everyone. stallman is not some sort of graybeard, he's a sad fuck who lied about what laptop setup he is using.
mircea_popescu: koch is not some coder, he's a sad fuck who lies about where he gets the code.
mircea_popescu: hanno boeck is not some sort of journalist, and generally speaking nobody has any ground to stand on ~whatsoever~. at all.
mircea_popescu: and i do mean this. nobody. tom cook isn't a fucking ceo, and if i replaced him with hillary's daughter there'd be no perceptible difference anywhere.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing andressen has to contribute to any discussion. if you want copy/paste "ugc" you can just as well use google "ai", for the exact same result.
mircea_popescu: not people. things. items.
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> <mircea_popescu> trb-tits << I thought that was shinohai's fork << :D
shinohai: :D
mod6: how goes shinohai ?
shinohai: Not bad here, haven't lost 10 bitcents in Eulora today so ..... and you?
shinohai still feels terribru about that
mircea_popescu: lol poor guy
mircea_popescu: here's a pic of a nice black girl going over backwards to suck some cock. http://68.media.tumblr.com/ca595189778e5688d585a0dbdda6f5e3/tumblr_mn2n4qplLe1s5v9c7o1_1280.png
shinohai: I feel better now.
mod6: dang
mod6: im aight, bout to send out this SoBA here.
shinohai: Awesum! Looking forward to it, I'm just now delving into asciilifeform 's tome.
mod6: yeah, trying to keep up with all these posts. just started this one on "possible trb-i"
mod6: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Most Serene Republic, The Bitcoin Foundation's monthly address: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-March/000258.html
shinohai: \o/
mod6: asciilifeform: forgive us for not mentioning your many submissions as of late. we'll be addressing these next month. salud!
mod6: shinohai: did you just burn through a ton of tools or what?
shinohai: mod6: No I was trying to use xmacros to automate some clicks for mircea_popescu and accidentally bought the wrong bundle @ 45 bitcents
shinohai: Electron buys back at ~35
mod6: ah crap.
shinohai: Lesson learned. Do that shit manually.
mod6: fair enough.
shinohai: tfw a camho faves the State of the Bitcoin Address tweet
asciilifeform: dun worry mod6
mod6: werd, thx alf
mod6: shinohai: haha, nice.
asciilifeform: i didnt make anything fit for memorializing in Soba this mo
mod6: I still appreciate all your efforts, regardless.
asciilifeform: ty mod6 .
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620408 << lel, wasn't he the d00d with the 'btc bank card'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-01 01:27 mircea_popescu: and a very fine point in case here, from my own personal experience, is that xapo sad faggot, wences casares.
asciilifeform: even went to mircea_popescu's c1
asciilifeform: and then evaporated
BingoBoingo: Not evaporated, differently bothering now
BingoBoingo: !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/llYjE/?raw=true
trinque: BingoBoingo: no response eh? I'll take a look
trinque: rough edges on the new bot yet
trinque: BingoBoingo: it's actually there, unconfirmed
trinque: I fixed the problem of the mute bot, though
deedbot: deeds online
trinque: !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/llYjE/?raw=true
deedbot: accepted: 1
BingoBoingo: ty trinque
phf: asciilifeform: https://zeptobars.com/en/read/baikal-t1-mips-Imagination-Technologies-P5600-Warrior
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620306 << to round the thread out, i also enjoy veen's company tremendously☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-01 00:10 ben_vulpes: not the pipes necessarily, but the garden; dog; wife; child; engines of my own...
ben_vulpes: whoa pretty phf
ben_vulpes: > we love microchips - that's why we boil them in acid
ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2017/towards-a-better-hash-function/#comment-121460 << bug in screw examples?
mircea_popescu: ima look into it.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-redditard/ << Trilema - The Redditard
shinohai: http://archive.is/Twxkq <<< CoinDesk gets new CEO, still no plans to publish newsworthy articles however.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2C3FC522334163C0B6CF55BAF32AF6EB7DB80ECA003153CA2D167C84C9B4DC42 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1137...2399 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B079AB36D0E866779596469C3FAEBEF7B8C64D767B5C70392CA63F69F82FA1EC << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1090...3007 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2C3FC522334163C0B6CF55BAF32AF6EB7DB80ECA003153CA2D167C84C9B4DC42 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1090...3007 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B079AB36D0E866779596469C3FAEBEF7B8C64D767B5C70392CA63F69F82FA1EC << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1177...2589 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN)
mircea_popescu: where did they get this "ceo" from, was he the previous VP of ceosunlimitedbocavistatexas.tripod.com ?
mircea_popescu likes reading the foundation reports.
shinohai: Previous ceo wasn't bringing in enough shillbux.
mircea_popescu: wow check it out, a quarter of the baikal chip's unused.
mircea_popescu: this looks entirely very promising. where's my winnings alf ?
asciilifeform: actually this is a mega-snoar, looks like the makers used 100% western toolchain, even macrocells
asciilifeform: even so i'd buy one
asciilifeform: (but fat chance of finding!)
asciilifeform: oh hey lol they licensed the core!
mircea_popescu: there's nothing "Western" about pn np pn stranding.
mircea_popescu: but in other western technologies, http://68.media.tumblr.com/d10a3976994cae7727aeb3127572ad86/tumblr_mmbrdcBrgU1rgefeko1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: woah
asciilifeform: circus-grade
mircea_popescu: no this is how it goes.
asciilifeform: in yet-other western tech, https://archive.is/YcSdC << 'A mid-2016 security incident led to Apple purging its data centers of servers built by Supermicro, including returning recently purchased systems... ... A source familiar with the case at Apple told Ars that the compromised firmware affected servers in Apple's design lab, and not active Siri servers. The firmware, according to the source, was downloaded directly from Supermicro's
asciilifeform: '
mircea_popescu: aww
asciilifeform: ...Supermicro's support site—and that firmware is still hosted there.'
asciilifeform: re upstack -- i actually have here an earlier mips from imagination co. -- it is notbad.jpg (tested back in the day as potential pogo replacement)
asciilifeform: from shinohai's link , 'Microsoft, Intel, banks form Enterprise Ethereum blockchain alliance'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
mircea_popescu: eh fiss.
shinohai: What could possibly go wrong?
mircea_popescu: they've been doing this whole "add logos to a printed page" thing for years now, it did 0.
asciilifeform: https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Espressif-ESP8266-wifi-serial-rs232-ESP8089-IoT << oh hey
asciilifeform: this d00d never rests
asciilifeform: 1000s of die pr0nz
asciilifeform: https://zeptobars.com/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip << such as
mircea_popescu: he's pretty cool isn't he.
mircea_popescu: someone invite him over!
asciilifeform: so far mircea_popescu is the people-bringin' champ
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform batting 0 / N to date )
mircea_popescu: i don't have an email!
asciilifeform: maybe hanbot ?
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FE6946A3BC2C63FF4316CD566875F2A65BCBFCF5FF6BB420A3F08B6FBA5EE0A0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1351...3347 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.mnl-latvia.lv. LV 099)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FE6946A3BC2C63FF4316CD566875F2A65BCBFCF5FF6BB420A3F08B6FBA5EE0A0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1614...4133 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.mnl-latvia.lv. LV 099)
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/gRPSR << meanwhile, in prng lulz !
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, mod6 , et al : meanwhile, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/with_cache_yet_moar.txt
mircea_popescu: sorry alf i'm busy chatting up this engineering 19yo.
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform: (subj can wait for eons, really, it's a running log of crapolade timer)
mircea_popescu: well thanks for the highlight then :D\
mircea_popescu: !!rate omraphantom 1 kinkster engineer teenager or something.
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Po5lA/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: !!v 83F8592A75BE0CEAA1DDE5BDE9B3DB2F8C280413A0E2F5DC82A45684A4D0DF34
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated omraphantom 1 << kinkster engineer teenager or something.
mircea_popescu: hey BingoBoingo were you in georgia ?
asciilifeform: iirc BingoBoingo is normally found in missouri
mircea_popescu: o was he ?
asciilifeform: aha, unless recently moved
omraphantom: hey
asciilifeform: hello omraphantom
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: friend of yours from meatspace ?
mircea_popescu: nope.
mircea_popescu: showed up asking questions.
pete_dushenski just invited zeptobars over :)
mircea_popescu: whoss ah the chip pornographer ? nice.
pete_dushenski: lol yup
pete_dushenski: probably a slightly older kinkster engineer than omraphantom
omraphantom: lol
omraphantom: i'm not reallly an engineer yet lol
pete_dushenski: what's the attrition rate at your school ?
omraphantom: starting in spring spent to long on that souls searching wtf will do phase lol
omraphantom: i'm going to be 20 when i start now flm
omraphantom: no what not spring
omraphantom: fall
omraphantom: when i can't think straight to gewt the seasons right >.<
shinohai waves to pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: omraphantom: aha just getting rolling then. eh no rush to start eng school. a chunk of the guys here started but didn't even finish
pete_dushenski salutes back to shinohai!
omraphantom: i might start and end up pursuing a different degree
omraphantom: but for now i need to focus on the general education credits
pete_dushenski: you'd do worse than adding some #trilema logs to that general diet
omraphantom: well 4 year degree general credits are needed
omraphantom: but at the same time i'm not saying i won't be doing my course credits
pete_dushenski: sure. and where'd you hear about this channel ? we need some more market research metrics
thestringpuller: w/ind 20
thestringpuller: >:(
omraphantom: i heard of it from mircea
pete_dushenski: o cool
omraphantom: they have a carpenter friend that was in my state i should meet apparently. i have a furniture blueprint just zero skills lol
pete_dushenski: speaking of wences, he was still pretending to be a person as recently as july 2015 (http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/21/wences-whacked-xapo-zapped/) though can't say i've heard a meaningful peep from him or about him since aside from 'swiss kyc blahblah' nothing-on-a-stick.
omraphantom: me bored with too much time = crazy idea written out with no way to make it real
pete_dushenski: omraphantom: i'm sure BingoBoingo can mentor you on carpentry but he's a couple states away in mo.
pete_dushenski: online learning though! it's the future.
omraphantom: yeah
omraphantom: i've looked into crypto recently i've been poking at this key stuff last couple days been learning a lot
pete_dushenski: speaking of learning, "Core exists as dictatorship and tyranny, upholding speech control, colluding to attack people with different views, has become the biggest threat of the long-term development of Bitcoin". ~bitmain miner guy (http://imgur.com/a/mhEEd)
danielpbarron: !!v 4BD380C65B267722D29CD0A765BAD340DEBF6ACDCE2B8F1337BA7FB9F6142FCF
deedbot: danielpbarron rated omraphantom 1 << euloran bundle maker
danielpbarron: !!v DAA04E744674D33C096C3D91D86C12CDCD4CA9DF3A57AEFCC966CE993734ADC4
deedbot: danielpbarron rated Aphex_ 1 << euloran bundle maker
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: tried again, with possibly adequate specificity this time!
danielpbarron: re: ratings above, both were very enthusiastic in performing some tasks for me in Eulora. very helpful, would hire again
shinohai: https://twitter.com/gnupg/status/836996411061387266 <<< in gnupg lulz
asciilifeform: '@aeliasen @gnupg for fingerprints collisions are not interesting. There is no known preimage attack for SHA1. Keep calm and use OpenPGP.' << lel
mircea_popescu: omraphantom yeah, turns out he's from missouri though ;/
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes lessee!
mircea_popescu: right you are, i updarted it.
asciilifeform has been thinking very seriously about how to make http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol correctly; and is quite bugged by the fact that ~verification~ is O(N)
asciilifeform: eventually (given death of moore's law, already long ago) the minimal practical time will exceed the block interval, and then mega-headache.
asciilifeform: in fact verification from-genesis is O(N^2) !
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: actually worse than N^2
mircea_popescu: however, if you already did the work, what is the problem ?
asciilifeform: if you already live on mars, there is no problem in flying to mars, yes.
mircea_popescu: but this is what the nodes ~are selling~. the o(n^e ness)
asciilifeform: but if standing up a brand-new node from scratch, with full verification (rather than dumb bitwise copy of existing node) takes a century...
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: cdb.
asciilifeform: what's that
mircea_popescu: cost of doing business.
mircea_popescu: "mining a block takes a century" currently, it's no bug.
asciilifeform: an inevitable visaification, The Guild of The Three Nodes, etc, at t-->inf, is a downer.
asciilifeform: mining != verification.
mircea_popescu: understand, there's no way to at the same time give nodes marketable data AND make it so any redditard can just pop a node
mircea_popescu: these are strictly contradictory constraints.
asciilifeform: i posted one just the other day (granted it wasn't 'any redditard', but wotronic)
mircea_popescu: if it's valuable then not everyone can do it and vice-versa.
asciilifeform: anyone can bang on a keyboard, some folx still get paid for it, others -- not.
asciilifeform: circus bear -- can bang.
mircea_popescu: this is an entirely ridiculous misrepresentation of the issue
mircea_popescu: anyone can run current through wires. nmot what we're discussing.
mircea_popescu: turn on your livingroom lights, pretend you're "running a node". exactly the same as "bang on keyboard, pretend you're writing"
asciilifeform: as i currently understand it, mircea_popescu's algo had two major effects -- a) nodes have something valuable to sell b) all users are protocolically forced to retain all blocks
mircea_popescu: no, but all nodes are.
mircea_popescu: users are forced to nothing.
asciilifeform: users who want to verify blocks
asciilifeform: that is to say, all sane people
mircea_popescu: this is nodes.
asciilifeform: gotta store.
asciilifeform: what is 'user' distinct from 'node operator' ?
asciilifeform: a goxhead ?
mircea_popescu: "users who verify blocks" = nodes ; " monkeys who shave and drive cars " = people
mircea_popescu: user in general is "tx author".
asciilifeform: tx author who has no node of his own == shaved monkey
mircea_popescu: besides the point.
asciilifeform: O(N^2) verification of each incoming block, is even worse of a 'heat death' rate than of traditional bitcoin
asciilifeform: (which is closer to O(NlogN)
asciilifeform: )
mircea_popescu: he who knows a secret key is a bitcoin user ; he who can say if ia signed transaction is valid or invalid is a bitcoin node ; he who can include a bitcoin transaction in a block is a bitcoin miner.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is that.
asciilifeform: convergence to handful of massive google-like datacenters for ~nodes~ -- not miners, but also nodes -- is inherently usgistic imho.
asciilifeform: this is an open problem, because 'miners don't need the blocks' is also imho intolerable.
mircea_popescu: im not saying it's closed by any means.
asciilifeform: it needs a fundamental breakthrough, i suspect.
mircea_popescu: yeah well...
asciilifeform: didn't mircea_popescu find a new chocolate icecream shop! he oughta go there, eat some, come back with theorem.
mircea_popescu: im gonna be off in a minute, fucking a new slut.
asciilifeform: maybe as good!
mircea_popescu: not usually.
asciilifeform: but before he does:
mircea_popescu: half the reason i'm a shitty scientist : unlike the good ones, i get laid.
asciilifeform: say the miner has to find a string in an old block , as part of mining, that fits a nonce-derived pattern.
asciilifeform: for sake of argument, an F, such that a substring S of old block B makes F(nonce + B) = true.
asciilifeform: this is verifiable in O(1)
asciilifeform: but requires access to all old blocks, to search for.
mircea_popescu: why ? statistically, only to a fraction.
mircea_popescu: you gave away your wife.
asciilifeform: depending on how you make F, he does need to examine all blocks.
mircea_popescu: this can not be guaranteed.
asciilifeform: (and even then may turn up short, and have to go back for a new nonce)
mircea_popescu: yes, but moreover he'll just keep a few blocks and go for new nonces more often
asciilifeform: it can be made as painful as the hashing is to begin with
asciilifeform: in the same way.
mircea_popescu: in which case it is also no longer distinct.
asciilifeform: how's that
mircea_popescu: cuz it'll be == the hashing if it's as hard as the hashing.
mircea_popescu: you can't turn out your wife without being married to a whore, alfie.
mircea_popescu: either you cheat or you don't.
asciilifeform: the cheat -- works. say your hash is a keccak that eats 512b blocks and produces 512b block.
mircea_popescu: aok
mircea_popescu: ok*
asciilifeform: the nonce is Q. miner has to now find an old block that , treated with the above walk, contains F(Q). and point to the block # and the requisite offset .
mircea_popescu: cheaper to spin the nonces.
asciilifeform: open problem. betcha one can find the pill for this.,
asciilifeform: .
mircea_popescu: i dunno. the further you go prng-away from the "quote the nth line in the log", the closer you getr to "my solution to mining is mining+mining"
asciilifeform: (for instance, can demand that the miner find a Q that depends only on the parts of the block he cannot easily spin.)
asciilifeform: O(N^2) verification suxxx.
mircea_popescu: i have no argument with that.
asciilifeform: gotta find a finesse around it.
asciilifeform: or you get an algae globe
mircea_popescu: but just because we're all going to die it does not follow we should go around on stilts and weird beak masks either
asciilifeform: or whatever that toy is called
asciilifeform: the one that blooms for a bit, and dies.
asciilifeform adjusts beak mask.
mircea_popescu: if you ever get kicked out of engineering tower should prolly try out the arts, become draughtsman
asciilifeform goes into the pit, bbl.
asciilifeform: ooook try this on for size : suppose fixed-width TX (as discussed earlier.) T(N) is the Nth tx, T(0) is the first tx in genesis block, etc. Tmax is the last tx in the currentheightblock.
asciilifeform: T(N) is an O(1) fetch, as spoken of earlier.
asciilifeform: say every new block , to be valid, must contain a tx-sized slot (not covered by the nonce hash, but see below) that is computed as follows:
asciilifeform: T( nonce mod Tmax ) xor T ( H(nonce) mod Tmax ) xor T ( H(H(nonce)) mod Tmax ).
asciilifeform: there is no way to practically compute this value without having a copy of the blockchain. and it also ends up being luby-transformable into any one of the 3 old tx if you have the other 2. a kind of perpetual redundancy in the storage .
asciilifeform: this also entirely annihilates the possibility that a future enemy could monkey with contents of old blocks by finding hash collisions.
asciilifeform: theoretically it also means that a tx, as time goes to infinity, will have infinite number of confirmations...
asciilifeform: (statistically speaking, any sequence of blocks, will eventually end up luby-coded into future blocks ! )
asciilifeform: in above example, the 'arity' of the xor is 3. and mircea_popescu will probably answer, when he comes back , that evil miner will waltz the nonce until the 3 necessary tx are the ones that fit in his pocket. but arity doesn't have to be 3.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-story-of-the-scared-slut/ << Trilema - The Story of the scared slut.
asciilifeform: what remains is to compute the minimal arity for the attack to be impractical. and prove said fact.
asciilifeform: (either this, or simply replace 'nonce' in the equation, with a Z, that is equal to a hash over the ~transactions in the candidate block~, considerably more painful to waltz than the nonce )
asciilifeform: now challenge for the reader !
asciilifeform: suppose that tx's (recall, fixed width) position in the block, is also kept inside it. (e.g., tx # 100 will start with a 16bit field containing 0x0064 .)
asciilifeform: and we have the luby transform above.
asciilifeform: what is the complexity of actually fetching the Nth tx , if you can also make use of the T(...)xorT(...)xorT(...) in every block.
asciilifeform: .... another pill against 'waltzers' : Z depends on the ~previous~ block.
asciilifeform: ( Z from here-on in this gedankenexperiment is simply a value that determines which 3 -- if arity==3 -- old tx's get xor'd )
asciilifeform bbl.
asciilifeform: as far as i can see, this solves. Z depends on previous block, and the xor'd output is ~covered~ by the hash (and nonce) of the currently-worked-on block. so miner cannot craft his Z, he is forced to suck it up.
asciilifeform: (and he cannot even begin to work on a block until he knows Z and goes, fetches the required old tx ! no other miner has any incentive to help him do this.)
asciilifeform: quite the opposite.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know that's not a half bad idea
mircea_popescu: lubby coding. better than simple hashing for this purpose. deifnitely.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fixed-width tx buys us this algo. but not only it. for instance, an adult tx's unique index can be quite short : blknum_txoffset. this in turn saves space elsewhere, for all time.
asciilifeform: for folx tuned in : it also makes the cask thing possible, but the latter is wholly separate, optional algo, it is possible to use traditional mempools with this scheme
mircea_popescu: yeah. fixed width tx has some serious advantages.
mircea_popescu: "all txn are 2 in 2 out" fixed width txn seems nailed down at this point. i can't see how an argument would work that'd offset the evident gains.
mircea_popescu: i would still love to see, for what it's work, PROPER ring signatures.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it doesn't have to be capped at 2, either, unless you use casks and want to leave room for dozen+ hop stages
asciilifeform: (or unless you want to make blocks ~very~ compact)
mircea_popescu: it's capped at 2 because 0 1 infinity. why 3 ?
asciilifeform: tru!!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: describe, for my education, how Proper ring signature differs from shamir's
mircea_popescu: first nondegenerate case.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is an "idea" item not a technological object, so bear with me. a "ring signature" is a set of signatures with a) arbitrary cardinality n which has the property that b) while it can be verified the correct signature was offered it c) can't be established wich signature that is.
asciilifeform: reviewing definition of ring sig : some process , whereby a signature S can be verified against keys K1, K2, ... KN , but without revealing which K had produced it
asciilifeform: aha, looks like we're on same page
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: once stated the pipedream portion is pretty painfully obvious ; but nevertheless, maybe ?
asciilifeform: let's try to at least put it on paper, what would be this squared circle
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> hey BingoBoingo were you in georgia ? << That's thestringpuller
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> iirc BingoBoingo is normally found in missouri << Southern Illinois
asciilifeform: as i understand, what mircea_popescu would like is : V(K1, S)=false, V(K2, S)=false, .... BUT V(K1,K2,..,KN, S) = true
asciilifeform: ^ ?
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
asciilifeform: how, hypothetically, would S be produced
asciilifeform: by owner of a particular K strictly ?
mircea_popescu: it's worse than that, by any owner of any k in the list.
mircea_popescu: otherwise you leak bits.
asciilifeform: 'all for one an' one for all'
mircea_popescu: to be more rigurous :
asciilifeform: now let's say we have this primitive. how do you make, out of it, a bitcoinlike
mircea_popescu: V(K1, S1)=false, V(K2, S1)=false, .... BUT V(K1,K2,..,KN, S1) = true if and only if K1 signed S1 ; similarily with k2 and s2 all the way to n
mircea_popescu: it's not enough with a plain S.
BingoBoingo: <omraphantom> me bored with too much time = crazy idea written out with no way to make it real << Go to lumber yard, buy wood. Go to hardware store buy tools. Make things until you start making things of complexity necessary to carry skills into building crazy things
mircea_popescu: 19yo female, bb. that's not occuring.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even supposing that you had this, if you actually needed all pubkeys in use to-date to verify a sig... it'll be painful
mircea_popescu: hm
mircea_popescu: N would be small though. 2-12 ish sort of item
asciilifeform: ah
mircea_popescu: in FACT, the MORE sigs it uses in a ring, the more expensive the tx fee should be.
asciilifeform: well yes, it'll eat linearly moar cycles, to verify
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re-reading i am pretty much convinced that the requirement that a) signatures are produced pairwise nevertheless b) no pairwise verification function exists yet c) verification works on a group of them is batshit insanity. might as well ask for a 5 smaller than 4.
asciilifeform: not necessarily
mircea_popescu: tsk. not algebraically either. how the fuck would V(all) work so it's not decomposed into Vi(each)
asciilifeform: it'd work, naturally, if the algo actually ~needed~ all of the pubkeys
mircea_popescu: (note that the decomposition needn't be Vs but will likely be a homomorphism, which POSSIBLY tyakes us straight to the hardest code known to man, the see-or-pick homomorphisms)
asciilifeform: because the signing process likewise took in all of'em
asciilifeform: reminds me of how one breaks shamir's ring
mircea_popescu: i forget wtf that is called, we discussed it.
asciilifeform: *remind me of how
asciilifeform: plz
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's this scheme whereby i create a graph, A and a homomorphism of it A'. you get ot see A', and may challenge me
mircea_popescu: either i must show you A, or else an A - A' relation.
asciilifeform: graph isomerism zkp ?
asciilifeform: ( as in, say, these : http://web.mit.edu/~ezyang/Public/graph/svg.html )
mircea_popescu: well, deciding whether two given graphs are homomorphic is > np.
mircea_popescu: and there was a scheme proposed whereby you either show the graphs or the relation ; op keeps challenging you ; each correct response increases the probabiling of truth by a factor of 2
mircea_popescu: i derrided it for being impractical but i can't fucking find the discussion
mircea_popescu: was last year iirc
mircea_popescu: oh oh oh! it was hamiltonians!
mircea_popescu: !# "hamiltonian"
asciilifeform: can't seem to find ~this~, either
mircea_popescu: what the fuck i hallucinated math discussions.
asciilifeform: nono we had this
mircea_popescu: anyway. the encryption scheme is like this : you generate a large graph with a hamiltonian cycle ; and a homomorphic graph.
mircea_popescu: you may be challenged to either show the hamiltonian in the homomorphic graph, or else to show the homomorphism between the graphs.
mircea_popescu: wtf
asciilifeform: i actually worked with this notion last year, when investigating nonretarded (i.e. of provable complexity) block ciphering. and came to same realization that mircea_popescu is probably about to come to
mircea_popescu: yeah, it was part of that discussion.
mircea_popescu: pretty fucking frustrating.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : can't prove the hardness of magicking ~your particular~ graph. )
mircea_popescu: that's separate.
mircea_popescu: heck, same stands for rsa.
asciilifeform: rsa doesn't pretend to a known complexity class tho.
asciilifeform: graph-circuit appeals because it -- does
mircea_popescu: yawell.
mircea_popescu: where the fuck is that convo
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-06#1477755 << it ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-06 21:38 asciilifeform: particular case can be as simple as you like.
mircea_popescu: not evidently ;/
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-10#1402378 << i think it was thereabouts.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-10 20:10 mircea_popescu: basically showing that a+b < c is true or false for a, b, c in R is a harder-than-NP problem.
mircea_popescu: because we were doing a review of possibly weaponizable known problems
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-20#1436710 << another thread re subj☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-03-20 17:10 mats: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/356/why-hasnt-there-been-an-encryption-algorithm-that-is-based-on-the-known-np-hard
asciilifeform: it keeps coming back
asciilifeform: i walked compendia of known np-hard/np-complete problems, and found that all of them had same hole
asciilifeform: i.e. no known algo for constructing a known problem--solution pair, using rng, of ~known~ average complexity.
asciilifeform: incidentally ~all of the material is circa 1970s.
asciilifeform: (at least, of the public material!)
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> 19yo female, bb. that's not occuring. << Frequent occurence. Typical hardware store is full of 19 year old girls. Even in the lumber section. Pinterest is a thing apparently.
shinohai: Because 19yo females like wood.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i found it : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-05#1396876☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-05 01:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: played around with a few graph-theoretical approaches (in particular, max-clique problem)
asciilifeform: the thread.
mircea_popescu: i'm so fucking frustrated. no mention of hamiltonian cycles, no mention of blum who came up with it, nothing. what the fuck miserable idiot am i, can't reference anything properly.
asciilifeform: ( next day, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-06#1397621 moar .)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-06 02:49 mircea_popescu: actually the 4 color map thing is in my head just as good if not better than knapsack
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-06#1398003 << loller.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-06 16:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "- He says current block ciphers suck. Why? It doesn't really become clear from the discussion, which seems to be between two people who have heard a little bit about cryptography, and are trying to outdo each other in what little knowledge they have."
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Seriously go, observe
mircea_popescu: this seems very close, but not actually it wtf.
BingoBoingo: Wait, shinohai aren't you in Georgia!
shinohai: Yup
mircea_popescu: lel
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it seems it's lost. sad.
asciilifeform: maybe it was a pm convo
asciilifeform: but evidently not with asciilifeform , because it dun turn up there
mircea_popescu: shit it was on trilema
shinohai: lol
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118994
asciilifeform: yes!
asciilifeform: theeere
mircea_popescu: hallelujah i was getting pretty depressed.
asciilifeform: metoo, i was quite convinced that i lost a set of l0gz to bitrot
asciilifeform: (and on raid5 no less)
mircea_popescu: anyway. to get back to the discussion, maybe something in the vein of blum's scheme may be applied to the ring problem
mircea_popescu: whereby you can verify one signed, but to find out which requires unwinding the whole graph.
mircea_popescu: verify the right one signed*
mircea_popescu: it would be fine if the security actually grew through being snowed in (ie, 0 difficulty to separate them on block 1, and growing from there each block, for all txn)
shinohai hopes mircea_popescu writes an article "In which I became lost in my own museum"
mircea_popescu: shinohai consider i'm not even 40 yet l/
shinohai: To be fair, trilema is a big place.
mircea_popescu: but why be fair.
BingoBoingo: For Pig-Elliot!
shinohai: ^
mircea_popescu: lel
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's suppose you had ring signature, we have edge of the sword. how does the hilt work ? i.e. you have an output, that is spendable, but you want it spendable by ~you~, not by 1,001 randomly-selected pubkeys.
asciilifeform: what's the spendability condition ?
mircea_popescu: let me restate because i'm not sure it's clear.
mircea_popescu: Let there be private keys K1...Kn. Let there be uxto associated with these, I1..Im so that any one I is associated with one and only one K. let there be a function S, so that the verification function V(Kx, S(Iy)) is always false, or uncomputable, or whatever whereas V(K1..Kn, S(Iy)) is always true if and only if the K Iy is associated to signed it.
mircea_popescu: ie, if K3 owns input I5, and if K3 signs I5, then it can be verified that the ring composed of K3, K4, K7, K9 a) signed I5, and b) owned I5 to sign it ; but it can't be verified that any subgroup didn't own I5.
mircea_popescu: for the needs of this contortion, K3, K4, K9, K11 is a subgroup of K3, K4, K7, K9
mircea_popescu: now -- this is the fantasy.
asciilifeform: oook i getit
asciilifeform: the good noose : i don't know a proof that you ~can't~ do this...
mircea_popescu: yeah me either
mircea_popescu: (i've been thinking about this thing ever since fluffypony first spoke in channel, but hey. i';ve nothing meaningful to show for it.)
asciilifeform: and yeah this is the squared-circle from couplaedaysago
asciilifeform: the crackpots have been at it since before chaum,
asciilifeform: and the charlatans -- since; and quite vigorously
asciilifeform: (recall the zero-whatvrs, how many of those alts by now.)
mircea_popescu: yeah.
asciilifeform: can anybody remind me of how shamir&rivest's original algo fails
asciilifeform: (it nominally solved this problem)
thestringpuller: !~later tell danielpbarron http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/VG61w/?raw=true
jhvh1: thestringpuller: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: all i recall is old thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1532069☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-30 17:29 asciilifeform: davout: 'ring signatures' are not the promised 'invisibility cloak', but more of a smoke grenade.
asciilifeform: ^ where my contention was, you can factor out the signer using multiple sets of shamirized sigs
asciilifeform: by process of elimination .
mircea_popescu: that's where it fails, "but it can't be verified that any subgroup didn't own I5."
mircea_popescu: there's a very directly computable homomorphism, the item being you know, the algebraic ring.
mircea_popescu: it's ~worth nothing that "hurr durr, riong signatures" when i can degraqde it by trying subgroups until i hit yours.
asciilifeform: say, today, k3, k4, k7, ... , k9 sign. tomorrow, k7, k21, k3, ... , k333. next day, k42, k3, ... whatever. now 'you can't verify that no subgroup...' ~within~ the algo, but someone who has the whole list and notices that only k3 recurrs...
asciilifeform: if he has half a brain -- knows which k.
mircea_popescu: actually i suspect it can be proven that in any ordered set with two operations which admit distinct id operators / are commutative this property can't exist.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is ok.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how's that. the seekrit, is blown, neh
mircea_popescu: re the above line : all rings are right out, basically.
asciilifeform: i suspect so
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform operator error.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: would be interesting to tally the avg case cost of not committing this error.
asciilifeform: (of guarantee of not committing it)
mircea_popescu: it is computable and this is good enough for me.
mircea_popescu: this item definitely counts for your grand list of trb-isms. on the strength of that, "computable", i ask no more.
asciilifeform: there's computables and there's computables-and-doables. unfortunately distinct sets in practice.
asciilifeform: (if you need a jupiter-sized machine, it isn't very hotstuff algo-wise)
mircea_popescu: matters not. technological improvement is technological improvement.
asciilifeform: dunno re mircea_popescu's planet, on mine, semiconductors sorta stopped, in 2009-ish, and aren't threatening to develop mega-improvement
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the useful research in nonalgebraic sets is, at least to my (admittedly limited) knowledge entirely absent.
asciilifeform: you will find that many 'wouldn't that be useful..' items are ~entirely absent in the public lit. and no prizes for guessing why.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: i dug for the can-guarantee-avg-case-np-hard? thing -- found zip.
mircea_popescu: anyway, lattices. psshhh.
mircea_popescu: give me a non-algebraic set with interesting operations instead.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform also has pretty strong bias against mechanically-complicated crypto. )
asciilifeform: it is very easy to 'zerocoin'erize.
asciilifeform: (or was it zcashulation ? )
asciilifeform: i can never keep the 2 straight.
mircea_popescu: fucking art students wasting their life with http://jezebel.com/heres-a-woman-plopping-paint-eggs-out-of-her-vagina-1566693939
asciilifeform: oh lol that chick
asciilifeform: she's in the l0gz
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, as an entirely idle example : the set of numbers with mpfhf defined on it is actually a fine example in this vein. it ISNT an algebraic structure ; but an algorithmic structure.
asciilifeform: to revisit the smoke grenade -- how do you deal with the unopposability of having paid for something ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, say politically. if you decide to claim tomorrow that there never was such a thing as c3, how do i deal with it ?
asciilifeform: or does payee get told the secret over separate (say, rsa'd) channel
mircea_popescu: or yes i was about to say that.
asciilifeform: because that'd work
asciilifeform: (in so far as payee can be trusted to stfu forever)
mircea_popescu: even something as simple as -- ammt made it, therefore paid is good enough really.
asciilifeform: the amts aren't secret, per the scheme, though
mircea_popescu: indeed.
asciilifeform: someone else can pay him same amt. and then to whom does he send the plutonium.
mircea_popescu: same way fuckgoats works neh.
asciilifeform: well not quite, we do store the pgp'd orders
mircea_popescu: so what's the problem ?
mircea_popescu: as long as right amt showed up -- right amt showed up, proceed.
asciilifeform: i guess this isn't one of the problems.
mircea_popescu: notrly.
asciilifeform: ( i can't think of any reason why payee would care if payer A, or B, had supplied the agreed-upon amount )
asciilifeform: so long as they are guaranteed to be distinct at every step in time
mircea_popescu: the important point here is exactly this - that it should no longer be possible to meaningfully talk of "payer".
mircea_popescu: just payments. no payers. fuck usg.
asciilifeform: well yes, this'd be implicit in ring sig.
mircea_popescu: just fucks, no fuckers. tananana.
asciilifeform: !#s martian bank
a111: 12 results for "martian bank", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=martian%20bank
danielpbarron: !~later tell thestringpuller http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/qo014/?raw=true
jhvh1: danielpbarron: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557335 thread , and elsewhere )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 20:37 asciilifeform: ('martian bank' being simply a naive abstraction of 'idealizes swiss bank', where money supply is constant, and i can send from account a1 can send to a2 if and only if i have the privkey for a1, and double-spend - impossible, etc.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: btw 'no payers, only payments' is probably impossible with public balances existing in any sense.
asciilifeform: if balances are visible -- anyone can see that addr A had a payment-P-shaped chunk subtracted from it at time T.
asciilifeform: esp. if everyone is in the habit of using all of the decimal places of P as an invoice id.
asciilifeform: i suppose this is why mircea_popescu wanted the 2-input thing.
mircea_popescu: i don't see public balances are useful.
mircea_popescu: tx verification is good enough.
asciilifeform: how do you verify without public balances ?
asciilifeform: now you also want homomorphic arithmetic, looks like
mircea_popescu: i think i always did.
asciilifeform: 'we're squaring circles, may as well make perpetuum mobile and immortality'
mircea_popescu: hey.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the idea is you verify balance when spent ; not before.
mircea_popescu: the chain of beneficiaries can obv verify the balance, but "public" can not.
asciilifeform: can third party calculate the monetary mass ?
mircea_popescu: nope.
asciilifeform: because if not , you have the fed.
mircea_popescu: can only verify blockchain.
mircea_popescu: no, because public can verify all blocks are valid.
asciilifeform: valid also means 'nobody gets to printolade'
mircea_popescu: (and -- suddenly have an incentive to, too! because if they don]'t.... fed)
mircea_popescu: indeed.
asciilifeform: which means that i gotta be able to prove that monetary mass is what the mining curve says it is. and not something else.
mircea_popescu: not necessarily in these terms.
mircea_popescu: it suffices to prove that all outputs without an input are proper block rewards.
asciilifeform: that doesn't prove that monetary mass was not somehow added during noncoinbase ops
asciilifeform: i.e. that some output, somewhere, yielded moar coin than the sum of the inputs.
mircea_popescu: how did the tx verify ?
asciilifeform: that's more or less equivalent to my question
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: which is , how would you have such a thing as a sanely-behaving balance to begin with
mircea_popescu: here's the idea : currently, you only know the pubkey for a bitcoin address once it spends ; before it spends you do not know its pubkey.
mircea_popescu: the ~same should be extended to amounts.
asciilifeform: one simple way to do this, is to dispense with amounts (as discussed in at least 2 old threads)
asciilifeform: i.e. danielpbarron's vectors
asciilifeform: no moar coin breaking.
mircea_popescu: not sure that's necessary ; the true argument against "amounts" is that well... again, the 0.25 problem ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619936☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 13:11 mircea_popescu: practically speaking on current tech the bitcoin unit of account is probably something like 0.25
mircea_popescu: stop lying, txn = unit of account.
asciilifeform: think dubloons, rather than pieces-of-eight.
asciilifeform: amounts suck.
mircea_popescu: counterintuitively enough they actually do.
mircea_popescu: it is, cards on the table, more of a buried lie than ~anything else in the "protocol"
asciilifeform: it is one of the major leaks in the vacuum piping
asciilifeform: in that one party creates the sharp broken edge, but very other people have to live with the cost.
asciilifeform: ~100% of asciilifeform's line of thought re 'trbi', from this, to the casks thing, etc., was only 'how to plug the leaks'
asciilifeform: what are ~all~ of the places where A has the ecstasy, but B does the laundry, where A!=B
asciilifeform: oooh gotta revisit upstack, briefly, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620677 << ~this~ in particular cannot be done as written. else, the first relayer of a freshly mined block could simply steal the work that went into determining luby(Z) and get massive head start on making his own block, which he then relays instead of the plagiarized.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-01 19:51 asciilifeform: .... another pill against 'waltzers' : Z depends on the ~previous~ block.
mircea_popescu: !!up john_cocktail
deedbot: john_cocktail voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: (the fact that the original victim could, normally, relay his original faster than a typical plagiarist could hash, is immaterial, it is still a potential vuln)
asciilifeform: and actually now that i think about it, it'd be guaranteed-lethal
asciilifeform: the plagiarist can make a block with higher PoW than the victim, ~every time, since he isn't handicapped by having to compute L(Z)
asciilifeform: and reorg will favour him.
BingoBoingo: john_cocktail: Who is your daddy and what does he do?
mircea_popescu: that part wasn't included :p
asciilifeform: (so L ~must~ use current block.)
john_cocktail: i gave birth to myself
john_cocktail: so he is i
john_cocktail: but really, I've recently found myself reading the logs and wanted to stop by
john_cocktail: intelligent conversation about crypto isn't easy to find, on the internet or anywhere else