log☇︎
500+ entries in 0.169s
diana_coman: hm, brings the current failure to move off freenode (and still no gossipd either) into focus really.
mircea_popescu: then the bootstrapping problem. "suppose you let the wot work it, make trilema be gossipd, people can see the comments of people they talk to"
mp_en_viaje: making contradictory statements every other line is not called "answer" ; moreover don't strain yourself, there's unique gossipd nodes awaiting and things.
mp_en_viaje: yeah, that'll be a sight to behold, the only gossipd node.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: orig. asciilifeform's counter to 'internet is disappearing' was 'let's make mp_en_viaje's gossipd'. but then, like idjit, went to try an' make isp purse from sow ear.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if we were hosting gossipd nodes instead of public www's and irc bots, then indeed wouldn't matter that 90% of our ip block at any given time is awol. could simply walk it until connects to noad via the remaining. but we aint..
BingoBoingo: And I am stuck between a rock and a hard place, between Gossipd and Latecho's proposed BGP block, this time limited to the target addresses.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: sadly mp_en_viaje already wrote an article re sane solution ( gossipd. )
diana_coman: true; honestly, the only reasonable sync that I can see is literally bots talking to one another ie ...gossipd, no?
asciilifeform: 'iron gossipd'.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-03#1933579 << god please no; I want to see gossipd before I'm dead.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-02 20:40:01 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-02#1933248 << atm i suspect the chore of 'new clients' won't be escapable, in light of gossipd
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-02#1933248 << atm i suspect the chore of 'new clients' won't be escapable, in light of gossipd
mircea_popescu: so yeah. weird baked in. (gossipd, obviously, will not have the problem, everyone'll hear "here's what you allededly said" from multiple sources)
asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform is solidly convinced that vpnism, aka 'hide my ip!1111' derpery, is a fundamentally braindamaged 'solution' to a fundamentally misconceived problem. (to which the 1 and only possible ~actual~ solution is a 100% gossipd-style net which treats the older ip net the way the latter treats ethernet & co.)
asciilifeform: presently i suspect that even three dedicated folx, working in shifts, could not reliably 'meat gossipd' 100%
asciilifeform: the whole q reduces to gossipd, as mp_en_viaje pointed out already. atm we're attempting to hand-crank gossipd.
mp_en_viaje: as step towards ye gossipd of lore.
asciilifeform: prolly would make moar sense to discuss 1nce we have luby/gossipd/etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yeah, though "more reaearch needed", seems direct stepping stone to gossipd after all.
mp_en_viaje: which rapidly collapses "lisp webserver" into gossipd and all that.
mp_en_viaje: yes, i'm very much aware "asciilifeform would rather roll out gossipd, trbi, sane comp irons, etc. ~with~ participation of mp_en_viaje" etc. the problem here is -- you will do no such thing. what you will do, instead, is reconfigure your own desk into some sort of shape you and you alone deem meaningful, and that's all. because it is not POSSIBLE, for the man who can't say either "i will do this" and then do it, nor "i said i would do this, but d
asciilifeform would rather roll out gossipd, trbi, sane comp irons, etc. ~with~ participation of mp_en_viaje , and with working isp, than w/out. but may have to without, apparently.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 19:03 trinque: these communicating over gossipd makes a pretty clear picture
trinque: these communicating over gossipd makes a pretty clear picture ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919166 << trinque sweated out a draft cuntoo, which sadly i have not had chance to test in anger. i have a physical box that is destined for it , when get chance, and also will be porting it to the sim-mips, ditto. but i promised to mircea_popescu not to undertake any elaborate works until ffa suitable for 'discard gpg' and extension to other (gossipd, trbi, what else is waiting on it) paths ☝︎
asciilifeform: the fundamental boojum is that tcpism makes 'cost of ddos' open-ended . but this is problem with tcpism, and the only final solution is 'gossipd-only hosting' with wot-only direct peering. but we aint there yet..
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-01#1910435 << using gns as proposed, I don't see any other way than passing out ip based links. I can't send a blog link to a slut on fetlife who doesn't have cuntoo, nor can i send a link to cuntoo guide. The whole thing seems like tree forts connected with tin cans and string. For gossipd I have no objection, for name resolution of published material? How is it even published if 'must be this tall to ☝︎
mod6: Haven't tried. Was thinking we might make our own net until gossipd, whenever that might be.
mod6: I myself used to run an ircd-hybrid, but that was srsly like 20 years ago. So I'm not sure how much active knowledge I have on the subject, currently. Anyway, whatever or where ever we go, it's just a temporary place until we have gossipd.
asciilifeform: but would rather not suffer illusions re 'this is a step to designing gossipd'
trinque: the upstack claim was that this will help design gossipd. *only* as antipattern and study of antipatterns does not by itself yield sense.
hanbot: asciilifeform: i'd trust a gossipd operator that'd also operated the ircd bridge above one who hadn't, other things being comparable.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, do you mean that a person who made and ran this multi-bridge infrastructure across how many irc networks has gained no useful knowledge for running a gossipd-based service?
asciilifeform: ( e.g. the problems of mitigating tcp ddos are irrelevant to proper udpistic gossipd. and ditto authentication of handles. )
asciilifeform: indeed will learn what the troubles are in practice. only i suspect that 0 of it will have any bearing on the gossipd side.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'll admit that it isn't clear to me how effort put into baking glue for oddball nonstandard ircisms helps in re gossipd . irc as i see it is an entirely dead-end tech ( rides on tcp, and 0 notion of crypto , and cannot be retrofitted really )
diana_coman: at any rate, the move + multi-network wrapper approach seems to me like an excellent way for one to learn and be in a prime position for gossipd really
asciilifeform: diana_coman et al : i'm also not 100% convinced that the proposed multi-network thing is actually less of a nut to crack than adult gossipd. ( consider, how wouldja do authentication ? the extant ircd's support either '~nuffin, anyone can hijack session' or ssltardism . )
a111: Logged on 2018-08-04 22:05 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc i proposed at one time an intermediate item on the way to proper gossipd ( 'serpent'-ciphered tunneler to connect coupla ircd instances to each other, and ditto for users ( get otp cookie a la deedbot, get a key that's good for 1 tcp connect ) but so far instead followed mircea_popescu's advice re not wasting sweat on such a thing, but pushing with ffa so as to get with what to gossipd.
asciilifeform: ( with a working gossipd -- the ordinary net becomes less interesting, can treat it as a lossy channel like radio.. )
asciilifeform: for that matter, mircea_popescu already described how to do proper routing -- gossipd.
asciilifeform: for some particular applications (e.g. gossipd) it (and asmism etc) justified.
asciilifeform: but will say -- i expect that the final item will be even moar extreme than mircea_popescu's scheme -- i'll have 2 consoles on desk, 1 that talks to barbarian net, and 1 that only gossipd
asciilifeform: and hence prolly also is The Right Thing for other space-constrained applications, e.g. udptronic gossipd
mircea_popescu: (one perfectly legitimate way to build-towards-gossipd is to make the following item standard : every bot, upon receiving some registration order from anyone in owner's wot, will then respond to "any messages for me ?" with a "since yo ulast asked, here's all the loglines i have seen which highlighted your name".
asciilifeform: trinque: i also have visions of integration with gossipd, where the thing, given a wot key, will know how to ask owner for $source item. but this is yet a bridge too far.
mircea_popescu: ie, ~exactly what gossipd'd look like.
mircea_popescu: looks ~exactly like gossipd would.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng.
BingoBoingo: Don't forget the sack full of gossipd relays
asciilifeform: re : udpism : at the risk of rehashing some of the ancient gossipd thread, i'ma put a few notes re fragging :
BingoBoingo: I eat them, customs folk can't imagine that, hippos dance, the lobos marinos sing, and at some point PizarroISP the musical will resound through the Gossipd equivalent of torrents
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol i did say. back in the gossipd thread.
asciilifeform: not adult gossipd, was simply proggy that eats a symmetric key and gives tunnel for, e.g., www, ftp, telnet, etc
mircea_popescu: what, gossipd ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng. ☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sat down and worked through it on several occasions, most recently during gossipd thread; prior to that, when i was in slave galley and tore own hair out with juniperism; and prior...
asciilifeform: but this already was formalized by mircea_popescu as gossipd variant.
mats: depending on how that goes, i'll explore different power plants, and if THAT goes well, there's a gnat port to build future ffa-gossipd
a111: Logged on 2018-05-29 17:28 mircea_popescu: trinque, the whole fucking idea is to replace it once and good, with gossipd.
mircea_popescu: the very deliberate, and very plain gossipd-philosophy roots of logotrons are indeed not to be forgotten, either.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-04 22:05 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc i proposed at one time an intermediate item on the way to proper gossipd ( 'serpent'-ciphered tunneler to connect coupla ircd instances to each other, and ditto for users ( get otp cookie a la deedbot, get a key that's good for 1 tcp connect ) but so far instead followed mircea_popescu's advice re not wasting sweat on such a thing, but pushing with ffa so as to get with what to gossipd.
phf: asciilifeform: well, we don't have a gossipd, so our only move option is to take steps towards gossipd or leprotoilet. "i personally would prefer exodus from fleanode to happen on our schedule" exists at odds with both. it seems to ask for "faster gossipd" or "leprotoilet" now, hence at odds.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc i proposed at one time an intermediate item on the way to proper gossipd ( 'serpent'-ciphered tunneler to connect coupla ircd instances to each other, and ditto for users ( get otp cookie a la deedbot, get a key that's good for 1 tcp connect ) but so far instead followed mircea_popescu's advice re not wasting sweat on such a thing, but pushing with ffa so as to get with what to gossipd. ☟︎☟︎
lobbes: The faint whisper of 'gossipd' can be heard reverberating off the halls of the forum. You are hungry. Exits: [North] [Down]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835618 << afaik every single pseudo-gossipd ( and counting just the ones that proceeded past vapour ) ran head first into this failure of imagination, where somehow the only worthwhile payload is general-purpose derp ip traffic incl lolcats ☝︎
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in vintage lulz, https://archive.is/tWfDh << yet another faux-gossipd.
asciilifeform: anecdote : some time in 2004 or so, asciilifeform described , to a frustrated-with-lan-warez gurl, how proper p2p net might work, 'picture if each user only connects to folx he knows personally, and queries can hop if there's transitive trust', ~gossipd, etc , reaction : [horrified] 'omfg, like terrorist cells?! how couldyou!'
asciilifeform: ( when asciilifeform was running number for a -- so far, paper-only , gedankenexperiment -- shortwave gossipd station, realized that the traditional outlandish bulk of 1000+w shortwave transmitter, is unnecessary if you only care to transmit millisecond bursts a couple times per hr ; can have fairly compact and inexpensive item, not normally seen in 'heavy' pirate radio experience )
mircea_popescu: ie, is it fine to say "you wanna chat, use gossipd ; you wanna program, use emacs" ?
mircea_popescu: trinque, the whole fucking idea is to replace it once and good, with gossipd. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: My case for the high power station at some point in the future is that Aconcagua is 6962 meters tall and there are plenty of other high peaks in the Andes. There's the seperate gossipd goal of building a robust relay network, and then there's the "wouldn
BingoBoingo: Sure. gossipd isn't the only use case. Can't expect the moo cows to report to the reddit bags because they have been issued messages over a gossipd they aren't equipped to use. It's a use case that demands voice and/or video.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's historic interest in the subj is strictly in re gossipd.
asciilifeform: if it's gossipd transport layer, massively loud sw station is the Wrong Thing ( unless you're mircea_popescu , and have the cannon battery around the mast, and can be arsed )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-09#1811772 << i can't imagine why ; if and when replaced will be replaced with gossipd if mature, or with ad interim if not. in any case a chat there will be. ☝︎
trinque: guy had no notion of WoT, of gossipd, or anything. he's firmly an "our democracy" believer
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, tmsr, the most serene republic, this thing. gossipd, lessee.... there's http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ and http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gossipd and not much else. it's vaporware for now.
zx2c4: tmsr? gossipd?
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, yeah. have you seen anything re gossipd, ~speaking the tmsr-wireguard ?
ben_vulpes: (look gossipd works, asciilifeform can take a nap)
a111: Logged on 2018-04-11 14:55 spyked: anyway, I can see mircea_popescu's point re "but unlike gossipd, this broken implementation exists!". but unlike, say, Bitcoin, which, broken implementations or not, I can understand by going to the sources, this I can't, at least not without getting myself deep into the slime pit.
spyked: anyway, I can see mircea_popescu's point re "but unlike gossipd, this broken implementation exists!". but unlike, say, Bitcoin, which, broken implementations or not, I can understand by going to the sources, this I can't, at least not without getting myself deep into the slime pit. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean gossipd ? how can it possibly displace something that doesn't even exist!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796043 << i read. it's a hannoboeckization of gossipd. ☝︎
trinque: mircea_popescu: depends on "web" I should've said. I'd sooner skip the RSS feed part and have the bot directly message folks when interesting things happen. the usefulness of this is blunted by the fact that currently gossipd is implemented by gpg-paste.
trinque: there's also the interesting question of what wot ratings look like in a gossipd world. yes, I will still warehouse my repository of wot data, but I'd also be happy to chatter ratings to other nodes.
asciilifeform: the idea is that if you have immutable url-to-payload correspondence, large-scale mirroring ( via , e.g., gossipd wot ) becomes practical.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:50 trinque waits patiently for a gossipd atop which to redo hypertext
trinque waits patiently for a gossipd atop which to redo hypertext ☟︎
mircea_popescu: the merger into gossipd and eulora later on -- obviously open avenue.
asciilifeform: trinque: orig stimulus for ffa was gossipd's rsa-in-realtime req.
phf: i had that experience when i tried implementing an older spec of gossipd. i wrote it in C, actually CWEB, but i wasn't doing literate programming right, and after a while the whole thing became overwhelming.
trinque: network in a generic gossipd press path
mircea_popescu: this is a sort of gossipd-meets-the original "can't have signature repudiation" problem you encountered in comments there, but REVERSED.
trinque: in the absence of gossipd, using ssh with $user<->$specificCommand between nodes
phf: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log-search-day-hist.png?q=gossipd http://btcbase.org/log-search-day-hist.png?q=ada+from:ascii http://btcbase.org/log-search-day-hist.png?q=phuctor http://btcbase.org/log-search-day-hist.png?q=dog
a111: Logged on 2016-01-10 23:48 mircea_popescu: hey check that out, zimmerman makes nsa-phone and david chaum makes nsa-gossipd.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-17 18:52 Ingolfr_Arnarson: And mentioned gossipd was the name of the actual thing.