BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 455046 | Current Difficulty: 4.40779902286E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 455615 | Next Difficulty In: 569 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 22 hours, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: !!key Aphex_
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/E65E3459.asc
mircea_popescu: trinque i get 0 size ?
trinque: that has to be from the ancient db where things were done by key ID
trinque: there are a handful of those
trinque: do we know a full fingerprint for that nick?
mircea_popescu: i think this just got uploaded though ?
trinque: huh
trinque: yeah, that should not be using short key ID
mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-02-27.log.html#t23:29:02
mircea_popescu: i mean i'm assuming he just made it...
trinque: one sec, fishing it out
trinque: he registered by short key ID; I'll be disallowing that
mircea_popescu: kk.
trinque: mircea_popescu: http://wot.deedbot.org/571C5222741EC7293E8C100CAF612354E65E3459.asc
mircea_popescu: ty
trinque: I'll be fixing !!key for a sec
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/uhf-the-film/ << Trilema - UHF (the film)
trinque: !!key Aphex_
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/571C5222741EC7293E8C100CAF612354E65E3459.asc
trinque: fixed
mircea_popescu: cool deal.
ben_vulpes: excellent logs
asciilifeform writing draft trb-i spec
trinque: the cask concept is very interesting.
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/heUlU/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu is moderately surprised amontillado wasn';t even mentioned.
asciilifeform: fortheloveofgawd, MONTREZOR!!!!111
trinque: !!register boobs
deedbot: Provide the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
trinque: for teh benefit of n00bs
mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: !!key neephonite
deedbot: Not registered.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, trump wants 54 bn cut off "most federal agencies", ie the libertard state.
mircea_popescu: that's about 2% of the federal budget, ie barely a ripple.
mircea_popescu: of course it's also 2x the expenditure on "science", or "environment" crap... so whatevs.
mircea_popescu: somehow fake news fails to mention THIS WOULD BE THE FIRST US BUDGET SINCE FUCKING REAGAN.
mircea_popescu: !!key neephonite
deedbot: Not registered.
mircea_popescu: !!key neephonite
deedbot: Not registered.
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/02/haoles-at-coinbase-bail-on-hawaii/ << Qntra - Haoles At Coinbase Bail On Hawaii
danielpbarron: trinque, it's supposed to take a url to the ascii armored key right?
trinque: indeed, I see the guy's session though and I screwed something up last update
phf: i don't understand weird al. it's some weird post-hippy take on klezmer, but i feel like i'm missing something, some kind of intermediate step
asciilifeform thinks 'holy fuck is the trb-i article looooong;' who will have the strength, to read this.
BingoBoingo: phf: You aren't missing anything. The problem is your brain is working.
phf: asciilifeform: the usual 5 people on the channel, and the one dedicated shadow NSA agent that's assigned to this channel
trinque: what, only one?
trinque: trump budget cuts?
mircea_popescu: phf it's just cheap.
asciilifeform: ninjashotgun!
mircea_popescu: think harlan ellison, or the fucktard that started scientology.
mircea_popescu: or yes, ninjashogun for that matter.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dont worry about it, people routinely read 5k+ word trilema pieces, and they're not even specifically about something.
asciilifeform: this one's already at 4k, and counting
phf: there's one nice thing that came out of harlan ellison, https://www.mobygames.com/game/i-have-no-mouth-and-i-must-scream
asciilifeform: ^^^
asciilifeform: with the little caveat that he had ~0 input into the game design
mircea_popescu: and yankovic was iconic at some point in the (late) 80s
trinque: hate hate hate
trinque: story still ranks as one of my favorites
mircea_popescu: but it's improper to link him to klezmer like it's improper to link hot topic to "teenage angst".
mircea_popescu: he's just trying to sell some cheetos.
mircea_popescu: course if youi mean the 1970s bs, then you're just about right.
mircea_popescu: there was an actual ro/ukr folk thing in the late 1800s, however.
phf: i'm thinking klezmorim as reinterpreted through the 60s do your own thing prism, "happenings", clown with an accordion being "playful" and "weird". it's hard for me to fully connect this line because the whole scene is repulsive
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
mircea_popescu: might as well be connected to "far east spirituality", seeing how it's just about the same thing, bored, idle and useless middle class cali chicks trying to find something to do with themselves that would still be useless and improductive.
mircea_popescu: trinque nothing wrong with that, is there ?
trinque: liking the pulp? nah, the misanthropy fit my early teens just fine.
trinque: cheap porn did too, and for similar reasons
mircea_popescu: im not even sure it's terrible, the piece. but the author is certainly this mercenary hack, would-be-copywriter-if-anyone-were-hiring sort.
mircea_popescu: there's no general rule two bit crack whore can't do an epic strip number.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UKf65NOzM
mircea_popescu: check out the bike tricks the dude does.
trinque: lol
trinque: I waited the whole fucking video!
mircea_popescu: lol
trinque: wtf is that bun on her head
mircea_popescu: sojial custice.
phf: i like their clip for shout, because of mary weiss's budding woman come ons. serge gainsbourg will later take it into very roman polansky territory with his yeye girls.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thEKxFNCuT4
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder they're not in turtlenecks.
mircea_popescu finds fake lesbian teeny bopper "show me the money" russian frauds much more appealing.
phf: hehe
trinque: the weird sexual constipation that thought this was racy
trinque: what a place
mircea_popescu: they at least have the common sense to whisper rather than squeal. how the fuck people manage to put up with the squeal is beyond me, but if this is music why not fuck pigs.
trinque: my god she turned sideways and sorta wiggled
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: makes it real hard to take any "conservatives" seriously dunnit.
mircea_popescu: "bitch, i bet you didn't even get your cock sucked until i taught your mistress how."
mircea_popescu: in the background, there's this steve martin - kathleen turner movie in which she's a black widow and he's a brain surgeon. woman has nice legs and a fine disposition ; what a fucking waste of a reel.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in france, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-iysdFu_TQ
phf: i actually thought that shangri la clip was from the 40s or something, hence the "serge gainsbourg later ..." :o
asciilifeform: don't goto bed yet folx...
mircea_popescu: awww.
mircea_popescu: 40s. 40s is fucking big band / andrews sisters and nobody giving a shit about getting the clap.
mircea_popescu: at least if henry miller is to be believed.
trinque: my god the dancing cocks
trinque dies
mircea_popescu: but that monroe / lemmon thing is prolly descriptive enough
mircea_popescu: trinque they're not cocks, they're soucettes!
mircea_popescu: rhymes with soubrettes.
trinque: I don't speak the language, man, but I saw the lollipops
trinque: cocks enter in somehow
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu pictures trinque in beatles uniform, "michelle... i don't speak the language... but i can perceive the hole..."
asciilifeform: ok, gentlement,
asciilifeform: brace yerselves,
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000257.html
asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (CRACKPOTTERY) Notes re: one possible "TRB-I".
mircea_popescu: weird choice of venue.
phf: trinque: it's double entendre in a musical form. she's singing about a girl who likes lollipops, but of course everyone know what the author (gainsbourg) ment. later she grew up a bit and had a falling out with gainsbourg once she learned the trick
mircea_popescu: eh she couldn't have been that fucking retarded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah, on 2nd thought it probably does not belong there. But at least is clearly marked as not belonging !111
mircea_popescu: !b 1
mircea_popescu: now we know how he does anal sex.
mircea_popescu: anyw
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: ay, ima go do things to people now. will read it tomorro.
asciilifeform: nighty mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: trinque this is the casks thing.
trinque: I'll be up early with a fresh mind to read.
trinque: while harlan ellison is still on the mind, to a young trinque, his story was one of the first (yes) indications that total rejection of others was a thing.
trinque: that the character which embodies this is "AI" is not important; it's behavior is entirely human
trinque: *its
trinque: to anyone born in a cultural sewer, hatred is along every path out, even/especially the laziest one.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-21#1616404 << comes to mind☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-21 22:48 mircea_popescu: and then she hates her parents.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619682 << https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRiZRMLGjCY ("down, down, down, down!")☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 05:16 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UKf65NOzM
trinque: not the only ingredient of sanity, but it clears the field.
trinque: ben_vulpes: lady friend tried to explain rocky horror to me once, did not make it through my thick skull
ben_vulpes: i don't much know about paths out, but hatred is definitely the fuel for the torch i use to burn a moat around my tiny castle.
ben_vulpes: trinque: horny teen girls need a culturally sanctioned place to be horny in public, 'twas the best most of america had post y2k
ben_vulpes bbl
ben_vulpes: i guess there were raves as well
trinque: yeah that makes sense
trinque: "but nothing sexual happens?"
trinque: and thus I lost interest entirely
ben_vulpes: also something something mildly transgressive with the homostuff
mircea_popescu: wtf "nothing sexual happens". in a fucking theatre ? that's insanity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re your piece (you know if you had intelligently published it ON YOUR OWN BLOG i could have left a comment there instead, and in a year or whenever this were to be reviewed we wouldn't have to go grepping the logs like idiots) :
mircea_popescu: there's a major problem with the very tight coupling your write-up may be read to envisage wrt cask filling. there are, as far as reality goes, two lists : a list of available txn slots in blocks, which is fixed and aforeknown, and a list of desired txn, which is neither fixed nor truly aforeknown. the workers moving the latter into the former (miners + nodes) are necessarily going to have serious trouble doing a very fixed a
mircea_popescu: nd disciplined 1:1 casks and fills ratio strictly declared at arbitrary points in time.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason a man will fuck ~any woman he encounters naked or in any even vague kind of peri-nude state. without this property, reproduction'd have long ago failed. there's similarily a reason miners currently accept absolutely any txn into a pool of liquid shit.
mircea_popescu: to demand miner makes a certified statement to the effect of "offset 0xa to 0xb in block y is reserved for txn 0xc" is putting a constraint on this p2p system the likes of which it can't conceivably bear.
mircea_popescu: there's a different, much less notable problem wrt to what constitutes "a rotten fill". if i go to the stock market (i mean the old, gentlemany, pit of hand gestures thing) and bid "sentiments" for a certain share, i am in fact engaging in retarded behaviour, on the level of sjwing, and will, and should be kicked out.
mircea_popescu: if however i offer half the "current price" for a share, i am not so engaging. moreover the case exists in history, for instance at the root of the rotschild fortune
mircea_popescu: (fellow was trusted by "everyone" to have best infos as to the situation in europe ; when he offered half price for the bond tranche everyone erroneously decided napoleon had won.)
mircea_popescu: moreover you even want it to invalidate blocks, which is certainly too much. how is a node to even know.
mircea_popescu: a third, and rather major, problem is that you will have serious trouble creating fixed width transactions in general. the reason is that the amount of information itself varies ; you can pretend to push this inconvenience all the way to the user ("hey, always use two inputs and two outputs and fu!") but it's somewhat unlikely to ever stick.
mircea_popescu: moreover i think the original satoshi design wrt to this aspect is actually very wise ; and my expectation (as per say http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoind-not-quite-ready-for-prime-time/#selection-77.298-77.516 ) is that i should be able to make block-filling txn if i feel like it.
mircea_popescu: a fourth, minor point, is that you have your market primitives ass-backwards. no price formation is ever envisaged to have "asks may depend on bids" as an edulcoration of "asks are fixed ; bids are fixed" because it is always possible to produce a pricing function for the product (based on cost) whereas it's never possible to produce a pricing function for the demand (demand is a psychological, not a physical phenomenon). the
mircea_popescu: refore it's always that bids depend on asks, if either depends on either (ie, if the market is very new) at all. the evolution of the eulora market is very instructive in this vein, see for instance http://trilema.com/memoranda-and-shit-like-1800s-high-diplomacy
mircea_popescu: a fifth, major point is that the current ~ten minute blocks are predicated on loose coupling of "casks" (current situation can be deemed to be that all miners roll infinity of casks at all times to all comers, and all pubkeys are nil) and no negotiation whatsoever occurring either downward or backward. the dual-negotiation system you propose instead a) has never been tried in practice (which practically reduces to "can't work
mircea_popescu: on the internet"), the closest thing is google-ish "advertising bidding" whereby google presents you with some details about a click and you have less than 300 ms to make a bid, which it matches and delivers ; b) is VERY likely to cause major delays. your system would, on the basis of pissguessing, require hourlong blocks or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: a sixth, also major problem is that the system offers no serious guarantees to the user. think of some situations : a) i mined some bitcoin back in 2011, today i clean out the closed and boot up old laptop, to check out the tits and bits of ex gf who was back then hot and heavy into me. i jack off, and then snoop around and find a bitcoin wallet with ~500 btc in it. i go to spend it... and discover... that i know no nodes...
mircea_popescu: and if i try to meet some... they don't roll anything down... a day later finally someone rolls something down and so i put my txn in and it... doesn't get included. wtf is this shit ?
mircea_popescu: b) i point and laugh at some idiots. they demure. i ruin their shit. they bitch and whine. i now have to specifically go on the hunt for nodes that DON'T lend an ear to the idiots bitching and whining ? on my own time & dime ? why the everloving fuck. the entire fucking point of even having cryptocurrency in the first place is so that i can rape eth, and flaunt the rape, and nobody can do jack shit other than flimsly psychode
mircea_popescu: fenses a la "he didn't really do it, someone else did, and he's unloved!!1"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ready for some answrs?
mircea_popescu: in fact most usecases that don't reduce to "we know each other so really we don't need bitcoin in the first place" fail to be served by your scheme as it is.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't you rather i finish first ? 4/5 done
asciilifeform: aite, i'ma wait
mircea_popescu: aite.
mircea_popescu: (imagine how well this handshake'd have worked on any other venue, hurr.)
mircea_popescu: a seventh and final problem : you now constructed a chain of casks, on top of the blockchain. consider what happens if node fails to keep his ENTIRE history of casks EVER issued : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-14#1613884☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-14 17:51 mircea_popescu: trinque understand the problem with "I will also be piling up the signed material for my records" : if during your lifespan you manage to lose eg a 30yo hdd, because you've built a reviewable system those txn will be reviewable. are you on the hook now for refunds ?
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, the whole segwit thing could be best described as "a rather braindamaged attempt to implement half of stan's casks"
asciilifeform: sooo first of all, hats off to mircea_popescu for actually digesting this piece
asciilifeform: if it was even half as painful to read, as to write.
mircea_popescu: not bad, no.
asciilifeform: second, while sleeping asciilifeform did realize that he had nailed down a few parts that ought to have been hinged, and hinged some parts that oughta have been nailed.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: and also oughta have expanded re the motivating factor. which, possibly, was apparent from the thread context, but ought to have been explicit:
asciilifeform: classical bitcoin is a massive cock, with the sharp end pointed at the node.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's aim was to consider gedankexperiment trb-i where this cock is turned around radially, at the miner. who, reaping most of the cake, ought to also absorb the cock.
asciilifeform: this now being said:
mircea_popescu: yes, but here's the only important lesson of life : it is NOT POSSIBLE to adminstratively decide who are the chicks and who are the cats.
asciilifeform: satoshi -- decided.
asciilifeform: it is possible to flip his decision around, just the same.
mircea_popescu: whatever attempt to "turn the cock against the man" will fizzle just as soon as man feels like it. the cockbearer is a matter of fact not a matter of convention.
mircea_popescu: this is not so.
mircea_popescu: "british empire decided women should be fucked -- we're a different empire, decide otherwise"
asciilifeform: the algo put miners in the saddle. another algo can put them into the latrine where they belong.
mircea_popescu: "no, you're a bunch of orcs with delusions of agency in others."
asciilifeform: there is nothing inherently virile about the miner.
mircea_popescu: notrly.
mircea_popescu: yeah, there is. the fact that node can't reproduce miner but miner can reproduce node.
mircea_popescu: the reason man is the head of household is that he can do juyst fine without woman ; not vice-versa.
asciilifeform: miner cannot reproduce the tx-maker, with his fee.
mircea_popescu: and not for lack of trying, with always the same abject results.
mircea_popescu: tx-maker is user not node.
asciilifeform: whole thing is about 'marketize timely tx-gathering'.
asciilifeform: let's come back to this part; i'ma walk the list.
mircea_popescu: it may well be argued that user is actually worst-fucked, as per 6.a or .b examples above.
mircea_popescu: aite.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619755 << later realized that the protocol ought to permit returning an unfilled cask to the parent, so he can reissue it to another child. this would make for a less unforgivably-tightly-coupled system☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 11:56 mircea_popescu: to demand miner makes a certified statement to the effect of "offset 0xa to 0xb in block y is reserved for txn 0xc" is putting a constraint on this p2p system the likes of which it can't conceivably bear.
mircea_popescu: but now you have impossible cycles.
asciilifeform: (cask'd be sent down to a child for an interval, if it fails to float, gets reissued)
asciilifeform: why impossible ?
mircea_popescu: (because as a miner you got this cask returned for the 5th time, whose head do you cut.)
asciilifeform: the responsible child's, who else
mircea_popescu: think, you push out 1k casks, statistically 5% will be returned > 5 times etc.
asciilifeform: all children are responsible for their children.
asciilifeform: unconditionally.
mircea_popescu: nobody is responsible, everyone got the cask once.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a "this is a 4th roll of this cask - must fill" field in your protocol.
asciilifeform: ultimately guderian answers if the tank attack failed.
asciilifeform: not randon hans.
mircea_popescu: everyone gets a cask, thinks it fresh.
asciilifeform: at whichever level of the pyramid where the '4th roll' happens - is where a child's head rolls.
asciilifeform: this is, note, unlikely to be the top
mircea_popescu: no look, let's go through it.
asciilifeform looks...
mircea_popescu: i am node mp. i issue 1k casks, to my 1k nodes.
mircea_popescu: 300 of these casks get returned. fair deal.
mircea_popescu: i now issue 300 more casks, to 300 more "distant cousin" nodes.
mircea_popescu: 90 get returned AGAIN. fair deal, as far as the nodes are concerned, ie the distant cousins did nothing else nor anything worse than the original 1k.
asciilifeform: ( recall that casks have time parameters. they do not have to be promiseheighted 'for currentheight+1' immediate fill! )
mircea_popescu: FOR ME however, and unbeknownst to them, this is becoming a crunch.
mircea_popescu: but they must be because i am working on block n with 1k holes in it./
asciilifeform: you are working on N blocks , with 1k holes each . can issue 1k * N casks, with various promiseheights.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem is at lowerst N.
asciilifeform: aite, continue
mircea_popescu: i must ensure i get 1k filled casks for it ; but if nodes can return casks at any time, i will ALWAYS have a % of casks returned too late.
mircea_popescu: or too many times. or howevert you wish to put it.
asciilifeform: this is same problem that airline solves
asciilifeform: miner does not ~have~ to roll all 1k casks.
asciilifeform: he can self-fill a %.
mircea_popescu: which in practice i will resolve by always overissuing by (1+sqrt(2) )*that percent.
mircea_popescu: and which will butthurt you.
asciilifeform: so he oversells. just like airline.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: if he oversells excessively, he gets nailed by his downstream. which is as it ought to be.
mircea_popescu: not "so he". by your design, he absolutely has to.
asciilifeform: there is a reason why i specified 'fib' as a fact of life.
mircea_popescu: this is not a merit but a dismerit of the design, as such.
mircea_popescu: well, i read your attitude as rather negative to it. but okay.
asciilifeform: the inevitable other side of the promise-making medal, is that the maker can break the promise.
asciilifeform: it is not removable, sadly.
mircea_popescu: here the case is that the design specifies he should.
asciilifeform: the design specifies that the rate of promise-breaking is measurable. which is a prerequisite to any wotronic approach to incentivizing promise-keeping.
mircea_popescu: understand, the principle is naturalia non sunt turpia. what this means is, that if the girl MUST go on her knees and cover her own face in semen while looking up at you, then THEREFORE it CAN NOT be "a shameful act" for a woman on her knees to cover her own face in semen while looking up.
mircea_popescu: you can't go around picking some random parts of your spec to disavow. you put it in there.
asciilifeform: not disavowed. probably ought to have described 'fib' more neutrally.
mircea_popescu: well, i dunno which it is, but saying for future generations of sluts.
asciilifeform: it is an inevitable occurrence at all levels of the pyramid, and is not fraudulent per se.
mircea_popescu: aite.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619756 << the 'rotten fill' thing was simply a restatement of 'a tx is not a tx unless it is valid, and a block is not a valid block unless it consists wholly of valid tx.' cribbed straight from classical bitcoin. phrasing was, evidently, confusing.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 11:59 mircea_popescu: there's a different, much less notable problem wrt to what constitutes "a rotten fill". if i go to the stock market (i mean the old, gentlemany, pit of hand gestures thing) and bid "sentiments" for a certain share, i am in fact engaging in retarded behaviour, on the level of sjwing, and will, and should be kicked out.
mircea_popescu: but you conflate two rots.
mircea_popescu: the rot where i shit in the soup and the rot where the soup is "too expensive" iyo are not the same rot.
mircea_popescu: both result in your not eating soup, but that as it may.
asciilifeform: a tx, recall, is finalized (from egg to larva) ~upon receipt of rolled cask~, which means that the immediate parent immediately knows if the fee suffices.
asciilifeform: just like he knows if the sig is invalid.
mircea_popescu: so then why even have it. have fixed fee throughout.
asciilifeform: so these are both verifiable at the immediately preceding-the-leaf level.
mircea_popescu: this is hinged for no apparent reason, decorative element.
asciilifeform: fixed ?
mircea_popescu: well yes. cask comes with "and this much in fee", write your tx for it or return the cask.
asciilifeform: how do you have a market, with fixed fee ?
asciilifeform: aaaah
mircea_popescu: same way you have a market with price lists for restaurants.
asciilifeform: well now that casks can be floated empty, this is practical.
asciilifeform: earlier it was 'fill this or you spilled'
asciilifeform: i'm with mircea_popescu on this one
mircea_popescu: EVEN THEN.
mircea_popescu: you can still have a market. "cost of spill vs cost of fill"
asciilifeform: tru
mircea_popescu: see, a market is a thing of itself, not a sort of air that fills crevices you leave, but a sort of magnetic field, goes where it goes.
asciilifeform: and this also addresses http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619762 , i think☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:14 mircea_popescu: a fourth, minor point, is that you have your market primitives ass-backwards. no price formation is ever envisaged to have "asks may depend on bids" as an edulcoration of "asks are fixed ; bids are fixed" because it is always possible to produce a pricing function for the product (based on cost) whereas it's never possible to produce a pricing function for the demand (demand is a psychological, not a physical phenomenon). the
mircea_popescu: possibly.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619760 << this is the biggie. you ~gotta~ have fixed-width blocks, ruat caelum, because it is the only way to not have the system grind to an exponential halt over ~decade. because it makes O(1) input verification ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618145 thread ) possible -- and - provably - no other geometry does.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:08 mircea_popescu: a third, and rather major, problem is that you will have serious trouble creating fixed width transactions in general. the reason is that the amount of information itself varies ; you can pretend to push this inconvenience all the way to the user ("hey, always use two inputs and two outputs and fu!") but it's somewhat unlikely to ever stick.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 19:19 asciilifeform: all input lookups are O(1).
asciilifeform: variable-width tx is braindamage.
asciilifeform: *fixed-width tx, rather
asciilifeform: *fixed-width tx, rather from 2 lines up
asciilifeform: i'll repaste, damn it
mircea_popescu: yes, which is at least to my eyes the major objective source of satoshi bitcoin braindamage.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619760 << this is the biggie. you ~gotta~ have fixed-width TX, ruat caelum, because it is the only way to not have the system grind to an exponential halt over ~decade. because it makes O(1) input verification ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618145 thread ) possible -- and - provably - no other geometry does.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:08 mircea_popescu: a third, and rather major, problem is that you will have serious trouble creating fixed width transactions in general. the reason is that the amount of information itself varies ; you can pretend to push this inconvenience all the way to the user ("hey, always use two inputs and two outputs and fu!") but it's somewhat unlikely to ever stick.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 19:19 asciilifeform: all input lookups are O(1).
mircea_popescu: all the rest, that he used boost, or bdb or qt, or that he doesn't know how to design or that he scratched his name in the lens can be fixed
mircea_popescu: this, however, is not evidently fixabler.
asciilifeform: likewise, and perhaps less obviously, multi-input and multi-output is braindamage.
mircea_popescu: tsk.
asciilifeform: it results in nonlocality and massive thrashing.
mircea_popescu: but you need it for the whole thing to signify.
asciilifeform: for what do you need it ?
mircea_popescu: for the fact that reality.
mircea_popescu: model an alternative.
asciilifeform: you can replicate the effects of multi-in-multi-out using multiple single-in-single-out.
mircea_popescu: but not in a fixed width.
asciilifeform: at the cost of multiply txing.
mircea_popescu: by an unspecified number.
asciilifeform: by n tx.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason i said 2 in 2 out. anything else is either nonmoving (1-2) or else tree pruning (2:1 ends up with a single coinbase ; 1:2 ends up with an infinity of satoshi sized coinbases you might as well stop lying about and issue outright)
mircea_popescu: forcing all txn to be 2 in 2 out is a poor man's ring signature i guess.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm ok with 11 in, 11 out. so long the byte block for them is FIXED.
asciilifeform: so it can be addressed by block and offset, in O(1).
mircea_popescu: 2 in 2 out is the correct primitive, even if oyu want to move 11.
asciilifeform: (rather than db idiocy)
mircea_popescu: but it would ~seem~ that if you do this, then you should put in the work and make a ~proper~ ring signature scheme.
mircea_popescu: which was the topic of yesterday's comments or w/e we talked about that.
asciilifeform: there is no such thing, and i suspect that it can be proven that there can be no such thing
asciilifeform: as a 'proper ring signature'.
mircea_popescu: ergo.
asciilifeform: the fixed-width-tx is a provable component of any long-term-sane trb-i. regardless of what other parts are included or excluded. without it, you get rapid rot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose i have a wallet full of dust. how do i resolve the problem ? count dust / 2 txn in sqrt(count dust) tranches ?
asciilifeform: because you then need db, which will ~necessarily~ grow slower-to-lookup in geometric progression as tx table grows.
asciilifeform: consider how we ended up with our wallets-with-dust in classical bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: this is a very valid point.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by spending bitcoin, how else ?
asciilifeform: btw i'd argue that the fixation on 'collecting the dust' is peculiar. everyone who has ever thrown away, e.g., old mobo, or whichever electronic rubbish, has discarded many milligram of Au and more or less whole mendeleev table of rarities.
asciilifeform: now you ~could~ boil the thing in nitric acid, try to recover it. but most folx don't -- and sleep well at night
mircea_popescu: and then turned around and mined the garbage dump for it.
asciilifeform: unrecoverable dust is a fact of life, not only in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: see... irl exact same thing happens, people throw it out until one day.
mircea_popescu: but the fixation on collecting the dust is quite akin to the fixation on "collecting the water" in a spaceship, or for that matter with the fixation on "retaining the atmosphere" on planet earth. venus, see, didn't so much care about its dust.
asciilifeform: this'd be the 'deflation' thread again, neh. if it ever turns into a palpable problem -- add moar decimal places.
mircea_popescu: i thought i made it clear that's nonsense, but to revisit :
mircea_popescu: the (false!) theory that the bitcoin unit of account is the 0.00000001 btc or satoshi is based on the batshit insane theory that a system could ever be devised that would track 21 million hundred million individual 512byte outputs.
mircea_popescu: practically speaking on current tech the bitcoin unit of account is probably something like 0.25
asciilifeform: aaah yes. wasn't this the earlier thread, where we determined that we already have a 'proton decay' going, and that the usable lifespan of a blockchain is -- likely -- finite ?
mircea_popescu: you can add any decimals you want -- you can not make them work.
asciilifeform: complexity heat death.
mircea_popescu: well, i keep recurring this problem / most everyone is eager to glaze eyes and move on.
asciilifeform: so it is not clear to me that 'dust' would become a problem at any rate separate from the rate of heat death.
mircea_popescu: depends what people do with it. it's very hard to predict such stuff.
asciilifeform: or that it is a solvable problem any more so than heat death.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, all it needs to show is that it is a problem. you don't get to unproblem it.
mircea_popescu: problem -- is interested in you.
asciilifeform: can show that it is simply part of the existing unsolvable heat death problem.
mircea_popescu: showing woman another light in which her current husband appears a shitbag does not give her a new husband.
asciilifeform: tru!
asciilifeform: but to demonstrate to woman that she is unfit for husbands, and ought to proceed to cat accumulation, can be a valuable gift.
mircea_popescu: i think the notion is generallyt accepted, under the broad heading "bitcoin is a prototype"
asciilifeform: possibly.
mircea_popescu: !!key Neephonite
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/5B4303E5885827E06BFA4BD10FE8E7F85B975C5F.asc
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619766 << classical bitcoin likewise makes 0 guarantees to the user.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:24 mircea_popescu: a sixth, also major problem is that the system offers no serious guarantees to the user. think of some situations : a) i mined some bitcoin back in 2011, today i clean out the closed and boot up old laptop, to check out the tits and bits of ex gf who was back then hot and heavy into me. i jack off, and then snoop around and find a bitcoin wallet with ~500 btc in it. i go to spend it... and discover... that i know no nodes...
asciilifeform: 'what if i know no nodes' was a problem there as well.
asciilifeform: the only solution is 'know some nodes', srsly
asciilifeform: 'i wanna fuck, but i know 0 chix'
asciilifeform: 'i wanna play chess, but i know 0 chessplayers'
asciilifeform: only 1 pill against this - meet people.
mircea_popescu: but bitcoin is a lot more promiscuous about it. you want marriage, bitcoin does the "handjob in theatre / quick fuck alley behind bar" thing
asciilifeform: with unmeasurable and hidden failures, most egregiously, selective mining of tx.
asciilifeform: whereas here you can keep tabs on kept/unkept promises.
asciilifeform: which brings us to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619776 :☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:31 mircea_popescu: a seventh and final problem : you now constructed a chain of casks, on top of the blockchain. consider what happens if node fails to keep his ENTIRE history of casks EVER issued : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-14#1613884
asciilifeform: here we have another piece where i used a nail instead of a hinge.
asciilifeform: it is not strictly necessary to transmit rsa-signed tickets (and then store the bulky stuff in casks for all time.) if you are content to have promise-keeping be ~measurable~ at each particular level of the pyramid, and to the children and parents of that level strictly, and that it not be opposable -- then you do not in fact need these signatures
asciilifeform: the miner's publication of W in the block will suffice then.
asciilifeform: those who were issued H(H(....)) of the outputs of Q, will see whether what they got rolled corresponded to one of these, or was a sham; or that they were rolled a particular ticket, but it ended up carrying ~someone else's~ tx as cask fill.
mircea_popescu: they would.
asciilifeform: all of the various types of broken promises, would still be detectable, but 1) strictly to those whom they immediately affected and 2) unopposably.
asciilifeform: the savings in mass may justify this.
mircea_popescu: what odds do you give it this entire infrastructure of detectable unopposable broken promisery will be jetissoned at first opportunity by everyone involved ?
asciilifeform: 'i give you a republic, if you can keep it' (tm) (r) (somebody)
mircea_popescu: (pro tip : 90% of design work must be spent in the above loop.)
asciilifeform: recall, this is not a decorative item, it gives very real bang-for-the-buck -- for instance, the complete abolition of the idiocy known as mempool
asciilifeform: likewise, since we have a defined down- and up- stream, we can have sane block propagation mechanics.
mircea_popescu: "marriage gives real bang for the buck, like the complete abolition of foam parties and blindfold orgies"
mircea_popescu: dude...
asciilifeform: an item i forgot entirely to mention in the original piece.
asciilifeform: mempool is braindamaged by virtue of being an 'allcomers' pissoire
mircea_popescu: people LIKE stranger's skin, way the fuck more than they like their spouses.
asciilifeform: i have 0 fondness for the mempool, it is 99% rubbish, and uniquely retarded means of accomplishing what it was meant to accomplish
mircea_popescu: like democracy ?
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: and the existence of some public pissoire that will necessarily accept a given piss of mine, is promisetronic
mircea_popescu: yeah, i suppose that's why you never went to any wash dc orgies. but lots of people find the promise sufficient.
asciilifeform: and many people find donkey fucking sufficient.
asciilifeform: the very ideal, in fact, of fucking.
asciilifeform: what can i say, tastes vary..
mircea_popescu: i used to think this is principally a figure of speech, then i saw a dude fucking a misfortunate husky.
mircea_popescu: incredibly, mindblowingly, the dog's expression was EXACTLY that of a very bored girlfriend/wife. how the fuck is this even possbile is beyond me.
asciilifeform can picture this.
mircea_popescu: it's in teh logs.
asciilifeform: to wind it up, the casks algo is asciilifeform's attempt at the 'high vacuum pump' from earlier -- to get the max possible removal of something-to-allcomers element , to the extent possible without running an entirely closed wotronic system (and consequently turning into visa or swift)
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear to me how such a thing is an improvement over "just run your current trb through the future gossipd"
asciilifeform: O(1) verification, for one.
mircea_popescu: from the fixed txn ?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: the castration of the miner, for other. if he bitbetates, he can be nailed.
mircea_popescu: and ?
asciilifeform: and his place will be taken by a miner who knows that a miner's place is on his knees, in the kitchen.
mircea_popescu: o, really ?
asciilifeform: granted, the stupidity of users knows no limit. at least i for one do not know its limit. but if i make mircoscope, and monkeys - use it for a hammer - what's to do.
asciilifeform: iirc even satoshi lived long enough to barf.
mircea_popescu: so you're in favour of the m design rather than the ak.
asciilifeform: the original bitcoin is the m.
asciilifeform: it gums up with liquishit of its own emission.
mircea_popescu: "but if i make mircoscope, and monkeys - use it for a hammer - what's to do."
asciilifeform: perhaps not the best analogy. i make rifle, and monkey uses it for hammer, he has nfi where is the trigger or which end is the business end -- monkey's problem , not mine.
asciilifeform: i proposed a mechanism with minimal somethingtoallcomers, and correctly-balanced, imho, incentives. it remains to other folx, to ~dispose~, neh.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D811C6AAB183D8651D006FEFC43E6E027A4EA5DF7DCF24505D01850BFE9B6465 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1740...3313 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (145-228-174-95-pool.cable.fcom.ch. CH BE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D811C6AAB183D8651D006FEFC43E6E027A4EA5DF7DCF24505D01850BFE9B6465 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1634...1607 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (145-228-174-95-pool.cable.fcom.ch. CH BE)
mircea_popescu: to briefly revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619936 : idiotcy like spending a fraction of this "technological unit of account" is currently punished by high relative fees like the case of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619097 "oh noes i tried to pay 25 bux, ended up charged 6%".☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 13:11 mircea_popescu: practically speaking on current tech the bitcoin unit of account is probably something like 0.25
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 16:27 shinohai: https://twitter.com/crainbf/status/836170461016903680
mircea_popescu: the solution is either an improvement in the technology (such as, going from bdb to bfs as discussed here etc), which will lower it somewhat, or otherwise the indicated : stop being poor.
mircea_popescu: the limit on "smallest bitcoin payment" is very emphatically NOT in the user's hands.
asciilifeform: thing is, there is no good reason to assign the cake that a tech improvement yields, to the stinking poor.
asciilifeform: this was the mega-lesson of industrial era, neh.
asciilifeform: all you get is moar stink.
asciilifeform: i for one would actually rather that my cpu heat the room , than handle redditor's pissdusttx.
asciilifeform: if it i buy a new, more efficient cpu, that heats the room less with each cycle, but the gained cycles are used to maintain the self-delusion of redditors -- this is a loss, not a gain !
mircea_popescu: this for one side of the matter.
mircea_popescu: for the other side of the matter, if you never take dumb 15 yos out for a night on the town, whence the crop of 19yo accomplished cocksuckers is to come ?
asciilifeform: from your servant's quarters?
mircea_popescu: eventually you will find that something somewhere still heats your room.
mircea_popescu: it is one thing to not permit the infantile to interact with you ~on their own terms~. this, i wholeheartedly support. it is quite another thing however to not permit the ifnantile to interact with you at all. this is insupportable.
asciilifeform: let'em interact, on your terms.
mircea_popescu: (it is also in the end the mother-father distinction ; mother permits at least some interaction on the infant's own terms.)
mircea_popescu: to make the story round, alf : there is ample record, not just re antinisca nemour's stinky feet, but in general regarding the women of the 70s and before. they didn't wash. what i have to deal with today in say http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537246 is the tail end of a half century process that BEGAN with exactly this, "sharing the fruits of industry", in this case hollywood, with people unfit to make the wot lists. all☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:33 mircea_popescu: you would be surprised how many girls have to be taught how to wash.
mircea_popescu: the girlies that didn't get to see deepthroat but worshipped "stars".
mircea_popescu: and similarily with math, and with other things. there's some leakage.
asciilifeform: imho it is not unreasonable to ask that kid save up his coinz until tx fee doesn't dwarf his payload. just as it is not unreasonable to ask chick to grow before qualifying for mircea_popescuation.
mircea_popescu: there's a dubious romanian film, "the death of mr lazarescu", in which a very professional doctor sends the orderlies to take the man out for a half hour spin until his subdural hematoma has progressed to a state where it's worth his scalpel.
asciilifeform: sounds like american 'health insurance'
mircea_popescu: ceteris paribus i'd rather take a clueless teen than the confused twentysomething she naturally produces.
asciilifeform: 'come back when yer halfdead'
mircea_popescu: (for the innocent - deepthroat, a movie of dubious pornographic merits, was produced by the mob and released through the mob's own wot. that you saw it in the 70s meant you were cool, period and full stop. even if you saw it in between gangbangs as an american version of carol.)
asciilifeform: sorta was the original point of a school, neh. a reasonably safe reservation where 'chix who have not yet learned to wash' can lean to wash, without creating dangers to self and others.
asciilifeform: naggum had a thing or two re subj.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582699 << thread )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 15:53 mircea_popescu: "to advance it is at serious odds with the massive glorification of youth. As marketing found itself unable to expand without encroaching upon our childhood, the intense drive to capture the minds of the youngest among us has tended to make people believe that 30 years of experience can be replaced by the young looks of rank novices. This is made worse by the management schools that make it possible for people who have yet
asciilifeform: i for one do not much care whether they 'take remedial class remedial in washing' in a specially-designated leprosorium , or in mircea_popescu's cellar; just for so long as the non-washers do not get to redefine what washing means.
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: you fucking koschei you.
mircea_popescu: how could the kids not redefine what fucking means ?
asciilifeform: hey modern usa is what you get when prepubertal chix 'redefine what fucking means'
mircea_popescu: this is not a fair statement. modern "western world" / "our democracy" is what you get when girls are ineptly forced to shoulder the WHOLE task.
mircea_popescu: they can't mature on their own ; nor can they construct a working society on their own. this is neither shocking nor worth the mention.
mircea_popescu: from here to "no input whatosever" is a length.
mircea_popescu: for instance : the younger sluts grow bigger tits than used to be the norm. they redefine it alright.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has an article with springs and ratchets, iirc, aha
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack : it is entirely healthy for kidz to 'redefine what means washing' ~when they grow up~. but not while they are nonwashing 5yo.
mircea_popescu: rather the correct cut is that they get to define it physically, rather than consciously.
asciilifeform: just as it is healthy to grasp, e.g., euclid, before you go on to lobachevskyate.
mircea_popescu: which is why the example given was "bigger tits" not "niunamenos"
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: (or 'i found out about bitcoin, and now i will fix it!1!!')
mircea_popescu: bout the same thing, occupy wallstreet, black lives matter, student choice in education, i will fix bitcoin,
mircea_popescu: same exact nonsense, "i'll talk about things i don't know"
mircea_popescu: in random lulz : tje original "gone wild" reference comes from dorky ny judge who condemned deep throat. "a sodom gone wild before the fire".
mircea_popescu: and in today's ancient trilema installment, http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu to revisit upstack : there is a serious mistake in my casks.txt , that i did not spot until now:
asciilifeform: in the original text, a leaf signs ticket that was made from H(T(H(T(....))) . this is disastrously wrong, because it does not cement the relays' payment addrs into the final signed tx
asciilifeform: it ought to have read : H(T0+A0+H(T1+A1+H(...)))
asciilifeform: because otherwise! any upstream node (incl. miner) could rob any downstream node.
asciilifeform: ~now~ the cask-chain is a proper, nonpromisetronic chain, cemented in the end by the leaf's seal.
asciilifeform: specifically, in section 5, where we have T'_i = H(T_i) ought to read instead : T'_i = H(A'_i+T_i).
asciilifeform: likewise, in sect. 6 i ought to have explicitly stated that Z is a sig that covers not only I,O,C,F,Q but also T. perhaps this is evident to alert reader - but ought to have been explicit.
asciilifeform: in other noose, https://archive.is/Rw5QK << 'The "Beat the Boss phone" is an £27 micro-telephone built into a Bluetooth headset with only trace amounts of metal in its construction; it is lozenge-shaped and is designed to be rectally smuggled into prisons, jails and courtrooms.'
asciilifeform: meanwhile, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619020 continued >>>>>>> http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/with_cache_moar.txt☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 14:52 asciilifeform: in other noose, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/with_cache.txt << the cache thing, to current time
asciilifeform: as if it were not sad enough to have a block that takes ~12 minutes (!) to save,
asciilifeform: it also evicts cache entries, so that the ~next~ block can take 8, and the next..
asciilifeform: variable-width tx, the 'gift' that 'keeps on giving' !
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7EEDA92A01CD1A089989EA1C9D2118859D5A4D0D8251D532BE5C5ECA6BFD0ADE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1415...1157 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cmail2.intouch.net. NL)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7EEDA92A01CD1A089989EA1C9D2118859D5A4D0D8251D532BE5C5ECA6BFD0ADE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1650...1463 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cmail2.intouch.net. NL)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619935 << incidentally it now occurs to me that danielpbarron's vectorized-coin solves this problem. (picture the quantized an-addr-is-born-when-a-block-is-mined-and-changes-hands-via-sigs scheme, from old thread; but with the twist that you can mine a variety of different sizes of coin. which remain fixed at selfsame size for all of eternity; they merely change owners.)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 13:10 mircea_popescu: the (false!) theory that the bitcoin unit of account is the 0.00000001 btc or satoshi is based on the batshit insane theory that a system could ever be devised that would track 21 million hundred million individual 512byte outputs.
asciilifeform: so you thereby solve fragging.
asciilifeform: ( the most obvious down-side is : that now you can end up in a situation of asking someone ~for change~ -- as if you were in a shop, in meatspace ... )
asciilifeform: ( for utter pedantic completeness, i will also link back to one other solution to fragging: 'gravitation' : thread http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-28#1609013 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-28 03:24 asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608577 << here's one crackpot method: implement 'gravitation'. analogously to physical one. i.e. an agglomeration of coin is worth ~more~ than selfsame coin in fragged form. quantifiably, in some straightforward way.
mircea_popescu: not the worst of situations, though it does fuck over a lot of typically cryptocoin usecases.
asciilifeform: note that it does not cancel the heat death of the universe -- you still have the infinite pile of blox
asciilifeform: ..but! no frag.
asciilifeform: in other lulzfests, http://n-gate.com
asciilifeform: 'Some moron "optimizes" a feature of a text editor that is written in javascript and requires hundreds of megabytes of memory to open an empty file. Hackernews recommends you switch to this editor, or away from this editor, or anything, just switch. Whatever you're doing isn't what they're doing: fix it. In accordance with Federal law, one Hackernews implemented the feature in question in Rust.'
asciilifeform: 'Some foreigners do forex. Hackernews is not impressed with this ancient idea. They could have done it better, but they're not going to bother trying.'
asciilifeform: many lulzgems.
asciilifeform: 'A Hackernews begs for advice on getting anyone at all to pay attention to his shit. The answer is unanimous: spam. Not even considered: making attention-worthy shit.'
mircea_popescu: huh ?
asciilifeform: collection of lulsummaries of d00d who reads hn.
asciilifeform: 'Someone considers Barack Obama, a politician whose largest undertaking involved a failed healthcare IT deployment, and member of a political party known for hemorrhaging private data, eminently qualified to discuss safe policies for artificial intelligence practice. Hackernews divides into two groups. The first group performs the traditional election-cycle political shit opera for six hours. The second group debates whether artifici
asciilifeform: al intelligence will kill us all, or whether everything will turn out fine just as long as we continue to monitor the living shit out of every single human being alive, in order to feed the machines. A Hackernews suspects Obama quoted Mao, and everyone reassures each other it's probably fine.' ( http://n-gate.com/hackernews/2016/10/14/0 )
mircea_popescu: honestly i kinda lost interest once it was about shithead news.
asciilifeform: it is in the same sense that 2016 trilema is about clitler.
asciilifeform: or 2015 b-a was about gavin & hearn
asciilifeform: at any rate -- strictly entomological collection.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: site reminded me heavily of ben_vulpes's laments.
asciilifeform: style reminiscent of his, also. wonder if d00dz know one another in the meat.
mircea_popescu: and in other news susan sontag is fucking retarded.
asciilifeform: whosthat
mircea_popescu: i dunno, one of the supposedly intellectual libertard dorks.
shinohai: joo
mircea_popescu: wrote an essay on "camp" which is fucking terrible.
shinohai: I had to read that horror in Hugh School.
mircea_popescu: "11. Camp is the triumph of the epicene style. (The convertibility of "man" and "woman," "person" and "thing.") But all style, that is, artifice, is, ultimately, epicene. Life is not stylish. Neither is nature."
mircea_popescu: this is how you get a D in any half-decent highschool.
mircea_popescu: "bitch, essay does not mean making baseless enunciations in the thick hand of a fucking peasant."
shinohai: I got a day of ISS because I said she was in the wrong camp.
mircea_popescu: what's iss ?
shinohai: In-School_suspension
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: anyway, the notion that nature isn't stylish can only come out of somebody who has put absolutely no work whatsoever into studying nature. half an hour in the microbiology lab should permanently disabuse one of the notion.
mircea_popescu: in fact the entire substance, such as it is, of "i fucking love science" contemporary idiocy is exactly that, "omaigerd nature is stylish!"
mircea_popescu: and before anyone attempots the historical gambit, "but mp, that's not what it is, but it's what they thought in 1960", gimme a break. that's what INEPT AND LAZY BUT AMBITIOUS GIRLIES thought. much like poor people think "rich people can;'t be happy", as a cheap and useless psychological defense.
asciilifeform read 'i got a day of iss' , thinks 'damn, launched to international space station, what atrocity'
mircea_popescu: she's the fucking http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-20#1615848 of 1960, pretending not to be an "engineer" but an "essay writer" on the exact fucking basis : "oh someone hit on me"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-20 00:22 danielpbarron: https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber >> they said that I didn't show any signs of an upward career trajectory. I pointed out that I was publishing a book with O'Reilly, speaking at major tech conferences, and doing all of the things that you're supposed to do to have an "upward career trajectory", but they said it didn't matter and I needed to prove myself as an engineer.
mircea_popescu: !!key Omraphantom
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/DAC3B67896D60D1C04B8C564F5C066865A04421B.asc
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ZAnHt << in other unsurprises
mircea_popescu: wasn't that obvious ?
asciilifeform: id'vethunkso
mircea_popescu: all those fistbumped janitors etcetera, why the fuck else were they there ?
asciilifeform: well yes. and they're still there, and will be there next year, because mr.t doesn't, evidently, own a magical Wand of 1937
asciilifeform: or he would've swung it by nao, i suspect
mircea_popescu: so far they're helping more than they hinder.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619750 << people make it sound like it's some kind of interactive burlesque, cept I hear not so much as a bare tit swings free☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 11:30 mircea_popescu: wtf "nothing sexual happens". in a fucking theatre ? that's insanity.
trinque: prototypical "safe place"
asciilifeform: oh hai trinque
trinque: asciilifeform: good day to you sir!
mircea_popescu: trinque i don't think i ever went to a cinema with a girl that wouldn't take stuff off. not past the age of 13 in any case, or as an independent agent, or however you put it.
asciilifeform: in re mr.t lulz, 'Trump will continue his losing streak if he keeps Bannon at his side, WSJ says in blistering editorial. Hits against President Donald Trump's senior counselor Steve Bannon are circulating Tuesday morning, with “Morning Joe” host Joe Scarborough saying it's “hard to find a more villainous historical figure this side of Stalin or Hitler.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
mircea_popescu: lights go out and tits come out, wtf.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform oh, losing streak is it.
mircea_popescu: really, they went straight back to the october pipe, that's all they got ? i thought it was going to be protests and revolutions and whatnot.
asciilifeform: on one hand, yes pigs squealing. on other - they aren't actually in a meat yard, nobody's rendering'em
asciilifeform: sadly.
mircea_popescu: five weeks of half-assed not-really-trying "irony" and back to denial ?
mircea_popescu: pitiful schmucks.
mircea_popescu: whatever, dude's going to go right back to a "losing streak" which is seeing cuts to libertard state ~= to the entire education budget.
mircea_popescu: such losing.
trinque: fire bannon, lol
trinque: he's half of what got elected at least
trinque: I watched a talk he gave in 2016 sometime, subtext sounded like "real change comes on the other side of a currency crisis"
trinque sees if he can find
trinque: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nTd2ZAX_tc << idiotic title.
asciilifeform: and noshit.jpg, they hate the d00d -- closest thing mr.t's wot has to a brain
trinque: nothing particularly mind-blowing about bannon's apparrent strategy either. "we can never pay back the imaginary fiat-denominated debt" so we'd better juice the fuck out of what military we have while there's time.
trinque cannot find the log line from mircea_popescu re: developing economy and deficit spending, but mr bannon apparently heard him
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu didja ever explain how your algo from http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol deals with the nonlinearity of the chain ? (the orphan stublets - discarded ? and if so, when exactly. because there are points in time where two traditional-bitcoin nodes disagree on what 'all blocks to date, linearly ordered' were. )
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ if anyone recalls the 'eatblock' thread -- i found that my blkxxxx.dat differed, in a handful of places, from mircea_popescu's, and yet again from every other trb node's.
asciilifeform: everbody, it turned out, had slightly different orphanchain-stubble.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: not in my wot, no
asciilifeform: lolk
ben_vulpes: trinque: in portland, when i was a wee one, they were a deliberately not-as-raunchy-as-they-could-be bdsm-lite-junior-queers-and-thespians social club
ben_vulpes: some grooming and recruiting obviously
ben_vulpes: tits and spankings frequently
trinque: oic
ben_vulpes: i attended one sometime in the last five years, and it'd been sadly neutered and taken over by the mayos
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a single block for each height, what are you talking about.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. go, look.
asciilifeform: there's stubble.
mircea_popescu: ...
asciilifeform: (orphanola retained indefinitely.)
mircea_popescu: there is one single #411110 block.
asciilifeform: iirc there were at least 3.
mircea_popescu: similarly one single 411109 and 411111 block
mircea_popescu: you must be running a weird bitcoin.
asciilifeform: (0, of course, in a reprocessed blockchain -- that is, one that's been spitblocked and immediately eatblocked by fresh node)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had this thread, trb retains orphaned branches of any and every size, because it never goes back to remove anything from ~inside~ a blkxxxx.dat .
asciilifeform: under any circumstances.
mircea_popescu: whatever it retains outside the blockchain aren't blocks.
mircea_popescu: kinda the whole point of having a chain.
asciilifeform: they aren't marked as 'outside' tho
asciilifeform: take the example of a fresh forked-end . which prong is 'outside' ?
mircea_popescu: i'm not in the business of telling clerks how to run their office. it is clear what the blockchain is, no further explanation is needed.
mircea_popescu: if anyone has issues resolving which string of bits is block n, that someone is invited to fix his hear, his node or both.
asciilifeform: you can't simply 'administratively' declare a tree to be a chain. gotta specify a linearization that works on ~all~ possible states of the tree.
asciilifeform: or you're whipping the sea.
asciilifeform: fwiw it's linearizable if you ignore last-N...
asciilifeform: (how many is N ? i have nfi.. mircea_popescu remembers a time when n was 60, iirc from last night thread)
mircea_popescu: at all points the blockchain is a linear string of blocks though.
mircea_popescu: whether your opinion changes as to which exact blocks is not germane. to mine on chain a you use n and to mine on chain a' you use n'.
mircea_popescu: ie, this is an entirely mental problem, manufactured out of thin air. dun exist in the actual thing.
asciilifeform: orphaned chains dun exist ?
mircea_popescu: orphaned chains dun matter.
mircea_popescu: if at position n-1 two possible candidate blocks could be n, then in order to extend n1 you will have to consider the blockchain as consistying of n1, and in order to extend n2 you will have to consider the blockchain as consisting of n2.
asciilifeform: hm, now that i think about it, when using mircea_popescu's algo, you take your current chain to be the linearization. and if your chain gets orphaned, you consequently get a new linearization.
mircea_popescu: there's no ambiguity.
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu is right.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: nm, dun need any moar algo, this one worx.
asciilifeform: and imho is massively nifty.
mircea_popescu: well yes.
BingoBoingo: Oh the Trump flensing knife lulz come out tonight, while still digesting trb-i theory. What a time to be live!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: keep in mind, it's ~a possible~ trb-i, not ~the~... thing's quite certainly still in 'matrix mechanics' stage of life, and who knows, for how long.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: In my mind trb-i is discussion piece. Ideal may be impossible. trb-i may end up being way to consider idea for trb-b which suceeds trb-a (a is for arse)
mircea_popescu: trb-tits
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the great tuscan salami scandal has 992 views on dumbtube.
mircea_popescu: i guess it must not be very good.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'ideal' objects are at least in principle ~possible~ in programming, it is sorta the ~only appeal of the work at all .
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> trb-tits << I thought that was shinohai's fork
asciilifeform: so, for concrete example, a verifier that runs in O(1), is 'ideal', it is definitionally impossible to beat O(1).
asciilifeform: (constantwankery cycle shaving aside)
shinohai: BingoBoingo: I'm trying but I get 90% "Bigger" tit blocks
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I though the appeal of programming work was a porsche in the driveway for one's blue haired silicon valley transpig
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo is posting from 1980s or wut
BingoBoingo: Geographically, yes. Very 1980's
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-fag-joke/ << Trilema - The fag joke.
danielpbarron: in other upward career trajectories https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5slbU6WAAAwj9y?format=jpg&name=large
mircea_popescu: so apparently cum snorting is a thing.
BingoBoingo: In the city I hear the convert it to the freebase and smoke it
mircea_popescu: and in other alt-successful-living, http://68.media.tumblr.com/3152999915e71b0f02ef9d312937441e/tumblr_nkmhpd11pm1tstx4jo6_400.gif
mircea_popescu: holy shit, the imbecile lists FUCKING NAPOLEON among "truth, beauty and seriousness" ? the dude with the white dickpants ? THE CAMPIEST CHARACTER OF ALL HISTORY ?!
mircea_popescu: who can take "feminist intellectuals" seriously, i wish to know ?
mircea_popescu: they're without exception barely literate.
mircea_popescu: http://68.media.tumblr.com/eba3b221f7bfbce91d3da8e72c16de71/tumblr_mong7m7z1P1s340tzo1_1280.jpg << essayist, thinker, intellectual and american culture icon of greater depth and importance than susan sontag.
mircea_popescu: also camp expert.
mircea_popescu: and in other heroku wins, https://archive.is/uzSfB
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i see an eggog
mircea_popescu: aha.
ben_vulpes: oh is heroli down as well?
ben_vulpes: i heard parts of the bezosnet went out
trinque: big s3 outage
mircea_popescu: awws
trinque: lel
mircea_popescu: but how is it possibru!
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/iCYcl/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/SYwUr
ben_vulpes: bad day for der clerd
asciilifeform: in other lelz, 'PARIS - A sniper mistakenly fired his weapon during a Thursday speech by President François Hollande in southwestern France, slightly injuring two people, according to a regional official.'
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/zElXA << in other lulz, mr.t utters the Officially Unutterable !
asciilifeform: 'Trump Appears to Suggest Bomb Threats Against Jews Are False Flags' OHNOEZX!!!
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/02/great-flood-exhibit-becomes-great-leak-for-home-county/ << Qntra - Great Flood Exhibit Becomes Great Leak For Home County
asciilifeform: lel!
asciilifeform had nfi that ^ folx were still in business
asciilifeform: iirc they were a bush-ii-era headline
BingoBoingo deliciously dirty today after filling raised beds
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: AHA
shinohai: o/ ty BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: for ben_vulpes inevitable curiosity used 4 cu ft. med texture vermicultie, 3 cu ft. peat moss, 300 lbs (~6.7 cu ft.) composted cow manure, and assorted bags of clearance potting soil that apparently did not sell last year (~ 6 cu ft, mostly Dr "earth" brand)
BingoBoingo: After some weather will likely add more vermiculite and peat
BingoBoingo: Oh, and a little bit of leftover clay midsoil was worked in near bottom
BingoBoingo: No charcoal was used in this production
ben_vulpes: my 'experts' suggested fish compost, coconut coir instead of peat, pumice, rice hulls, misc. fertilizer and rabbit manure
ben_vulpes: if i have time and energy, i'll be experimenting with the pickled food waste compost + charcoal in a different corner of the yard, in planters to mitigate externalities
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes's 'how do i get rid of my rubbish in this shithole where city charges 10bux/pound' reminds asciilifeform of asciilifeform's shed gymnastics. in that both are problems that 'sane folx' would solve by... moving
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: coir is fail hippy dippy shit that they only push because "renewable"
BingoBoingo: And for installation with > 1 year life expectance vermiculite has better mineral content that integrates into you new "soil" structure
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: has nothing to do with cost of disposal
ben_vulpes: getting right with the dirt spirits, though
BingoBoingo: The leftover potting soil includes all sorts of misc that is cheapest to get year after tested on market and then clearanced out because who wants to pay $maxint for fucking potting soil
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: how so fail?
ben_vulpes: digging peat out of the ground kills me; i grew up running around on 100yr old moss blankets
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "moving" does not produce compost for growing veggies, wtf