log
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asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al : http://trilema.com/2016/a-collection-of-distinctions/#comment-119997 << part2.
trinque: http://trilema.com/2016/a-collection-of-distinctions/#comment-119998 << awaits approval, but basically "can link a deed in rating's notes field"
trinque: asciilifeform: ^
trinque: or sign a copy of your whole wot and deed if you prefer, though mp makes it clear that habitually doing so has hazards.
asciilifeform: imho many of these hazards come from scalar-sig
BingoBoingo: shinohai: What 6 dollars? This is not December 2012!
shinohai: $6.74
shinohai can now buy 2 bottles of Night Train for the price of 1 ether
mod6: shinohai: thanks!
trinque: asciilifeform: what benefits are reaped by having these be computable, rather than http://deedbot.org/deed-427443-1.txt
trinque: as I pondered the thing it also brought from the dark recesses of my mind the "semantic web"
trinque: aka shared global mutable schema is hard
asciilifeform: trinque: the computability is for the purpose of a (hypothetical) ~generalized~ v.
asciilifeform: whole thing came from 'how do i negrate patches' or even 'negrate prb'
trinque: right
asciilifeform: trinque: v was a solution to the 'shared mutable'
asciilifeform: shared ~immutable~ -- trivial.
asciilifeform: trinque: the fundamental question i want to answer, and which the linked piece was an attempt to answer, was whether signatures naturally fall into equivalence classes.
asciilifeform: and, if so, which.
trinque: right re: immutable, hence there is no extensibility proposed
asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0WnddW5gZI << in other ooooooldz
asciilifeform: 'Electronics: Magnetic Cores I: Properties 1961 US Army Training Film'
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F88EEFD45F6F4512B02F65BCDB0A7BCE490041AD0F05E5CC39EDDFDF1C0DA6A2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1509...5329 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '38.96.47.126 (ssh-rsa key from 38.96.47.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (CSR170PC-Multi-CaHaSe-SaAn-cBAD-c2534-c2765-c2516. US CA)
ben_vulpes: does the lispy lordship have opinions to share about cl extension libs like "alexandria" and "metabang-bind"?
trinque: iirc phf has mentioned alexandria
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/vk30h << in other noose, ohnoez, fake noose, fake noose! d00d fires into ceiling of pedopizza.
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ZPa8a << terrorist content!
trinque: and they dare call the "great firewall" oppressive
trinque: inb4 every deedbot published item is a terrorist hash
ben_vulpes: terrorist numbers!
trinque: will actually be used for http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-05#1578133☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-05 17:57 mircea_popescu: ie, "intellectual property", or a misplaced expectation of control.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F88EEFD45F6F4512B02F65BCDB0A7BCE490041AD0F05E5CC39EDDFDF1C0DA6A2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1359...7203 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '38.96.47.126 (ssh-rsa key from 38.96.47.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (CSR170PC-Multi-CaHaSe-SaAn-cBAD-c2534-c2765-c2516. US CA)
asciilifeform: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2016/q4/607 << in yet other lulz
asciilifeform: ^ a bit unusually, appears to have actual attribution of the shitgnomancy
asciilifeform: ' The bug was introduced on Aug 19, 2011: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/f6fb8f100b807378fda19e83e5ac6828b638603a '
asciilifeform: '... we can change the packet version to TPACKET_V1 with packet_setsockopt() after init_prb_bdqc() has been executed and before packet_set_ring() has returned. ... When the socket is closed, packet_set_ring() will not delete the timer since the socket version is now TPACKET_V1. The struct timer_list that describes the timer object is located inside the struct packet_sock for the socket itself however and will be freed with a call to
asciilifeform: kfree(). We then have a use-after-free... '
BingoBoingo tried a couple drafts on the fake news about pedo pizza being "attacked" and decided not to spread unconfirmed rumours and innuendos about what smells like a false flag
mircea_popescu: good call.
BingoBoingo: I mean "shooter" conviced of pedophile pizza but doesn't shed pedophile blood?!
mircea_popescu: Ehrsam wrote: "There is nothing that bitcoin can do which Ethereum can’t." << aha. bwahahah. how about not falling over every week ?
mircea_popescu: trinque apparently this was the first time you commented under that name. i dunno, i thought i saw you before. anyway, should go straight through next time.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 751.0, vol: 5686.78288839 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 751.66, vol: 5245.82133 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 752.23, vol: 8504.58373911 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 767.412464, vol: 1470969.48600000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 753.04, vol: 1733.8489545 | Volume-weighted last average: 767.191299207
thestringpuller: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-11#1554678 << In practice dragging someone out of the cave usually results in temper tantrums.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-11 20:26 mircea_popescu: no, i'm implying that nobody in plato's cave knows how badly the cave sucks until someone comes in riding a pegassus
thestringpuller: hence the pegasus (assuming they can see it)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/100CAE7A776AD64680BA79678B251D0FED4E74ED5809C0CB72E443D006DF15CB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1397...5967 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '87.118.232.174 (ssh-rsa key from 87.118.232.174 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A61730B2012A2336FD271D000CA46DC5653BB1D1D0EDE99267BCD2D8ABE8D49F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1772...0167 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.25.160 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.25.160 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.admode.lt. LT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A699710E41B79E9651FA6BCE753216B8B7F39054A4150F856A74AB89952AA7B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1432...4237 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '41.223.152.240 (ssh-rsa key from 41.223.152.240 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MZ MPM)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EE1F2E9FC2C0ABFB22D1ED6985AAC2C7D16C5B215F17AABA0A6014570F19E7FD << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1432...4237 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '185.103.183.254 (ssh-rsa key from 185.103.183.254 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' ()
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A699710E41B79E9651FA6BCE753216B8B7F39054A4150F856A74AB89952AA7B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1432...4237 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '41.223.152.240 (ssh-rsa key from 41.223.152.240 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MZ MPM)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9460417F17B2CD1F76F6DB069E697C5DABA33283141E06F1ABA005ACF08CD48F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1797...6589 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.25.168 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.25.168 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.mokamediagroup.com. LT)
shinohai: https://blog.filippo.io/giving-up-on-long-term-pgp/
shinohai: "I'm gonna quit using gpg, but you can contact me using signal + tor!"
mircea_popescu has nfi who this schmuck is.
shinohai: Works for cloudflare, nuff said
mircea_popescu: whatever, he gets at least 2 encrypted mails a year i get about two dozen an hour.
mircea_popescu: why does he figure himself as a "perfect user" i have nfi - before a business comms system works for you, YOU GOTTA HAVE A BUSINESS.
mircea_popescu: random schmucko bum-student dun have a business ; or any business here.
mircea_popescu: "I never ever ever successfully used the WoT to validate a public key." ie what we do here multiple times a day ?
mircea_popescu: dude wasn't using pgp, what can i say.
mircea_popescu: oh, he's trying to sell whatever other nsa altpgp. myeah, whatever.
mircea_popescu: !!rate filippo valsorda -10 nsa asset.
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
shinohai: lol
mircea_popescu: o look, works for... cloudflare.
mircea_popescu: dem shocking surprises
shinohai: >>> 09:20 +shinohai Works for cloudflare, nuff said
shinohai: Their "Crypto Expert" or whatevs
shinohai: (but opinions ....)
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: schmucks really came a long way from the 80s. srsly, consumer-mentality based fud "oh noes, i worry about my key! government should come and give me certainties! putin influenced elections! guns kill people!"
mircea_popescu: that's all ? really ?
mircea_popescu: just go make a littoral self-rape ship, this software/internet stuff is a waste of your talents, folks.
Framedragger: ah, well it seems he did make progress with short ID bruteforcing, that's gotta count for something.
Framedragger: (also rehi)
Framedragger: "If you need to securely contact me, your best bet is to DM me asking for my Signal number" << hmh.
Framedragger: (DM as in twitter)
shinohai: total sekoority
mircea_popescu: it's not gonna count for anything in this context.
mircea_popescu: hurr durr, they were doing pgp subversion research and picked his hanno bock to publish some results.
mircea_popescu: notice how he glued himself to heartbleed (which, unlike the normal hanno bockian crap, was a surprise to the empire).
mircea_popescu: that's kinda what they do, whenever something moves without hitler they try to barnacle on it.
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy piece; somehow the species of insect was quite apparent imho from 1-2 paragraphs of merely the style of the text !
mircea_popescu: anyway, i guess all this gives a very interesting answer to the "how does tmsr gpd compare to fiat states gdp". apparently they produce 2 gpgrams/year/capita, and consist of what, 1k of the herbivores ? meanwhile ben_vulpes 's thing deals in what, dozens/day ?
Framedragger: i think he's just young (https://github.com/FiloSottile). i remember his heartbleed test tool, it wasn't innovative but was useful. (but i hear what mircea_popescu is saying)
mircea_popescu: !~calc 2 * 1000 / (24 * 365)
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: 2 * 1000 / (24 * 365) = 0.228310502283105
mircea_popescu: ie, for every empire gdp tmsr does ~4.5
mircea_popescu: Framedragger guess what, toddlers drinking bleach die just like adults do.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the way hannoboecks work is that they will pick a trivial but 'glamorous' problem to 'solve' and score 'cred' with rubes thereby
asciilifeform: boeck himself does this ~weekly
Framedragger: right, right. and also the whole "incompetence ~= malice" thing.
asciilifeform: there was a thread re 'do-ocracy', a name one of the perpetrators gave to this practice
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578282 << 'Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) Server at 79.98.25.168 Port 80'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 14:02 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9460417F17B2CD1F76F6DB069E697C5DABA33283141E06F1ABA005ACF08CD48F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1797...6589 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.25.168 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.25.168 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.mokamediagroup.com. LT)
phf: why does he go through song and dance of "officially" abandoning his key, if he has by own admission no counterparties?
asciilifeform: was there an ubuntu based on diddled-debian, mircea_popescu et al ?
asciilifeform: i had nfi.
phf is confusedly observing native's rain dance of "sekure comms"
asciilifeform: phf: same reason elliot r. 'abandoned traitorous women' though he had none..?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ofcourse.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which one(s) ?
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161206/#101 << hah, same hosting company and same /24 that is used for Framedragger's logotron and other things
scriba: Something went wrong while attempting to read the log.
scriba: Exception: ['utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0x92 in position 5709: invalid start byte]
Framedragger: oh shit.
mircea_popescu: lol.
Framedragger: "i dug the dirt myself and now gotta eat it"
Framedragger: for logs, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578325 ^ is what i meant☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 14:55 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578282 << 'Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) Server at 79.98.25.168 Port 80'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, ubuntu repackages debian every 6 mo or so
asciilifeform: aaah
mircea_popescu: (they "commit to security updates within 9 months". fancy that wonder.)
phf: Framedragger: fwiw the logs have properly reffed the original link, no need for a second one
mircea_popescu: anyway. 10.04/10.10/11.04 are squeeze ; the rest up to 14.04 wheezy and then jessie.
Framedragger: ah, sure phf, gotcha, cool stuff
mircea_popescu: and they always package "sid" (ie, devel) as opposed to stable
Framedragger: need the latest node.js!!!
mircea_popescu: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/base-files << there's even a convenient listing.
shinohai: !~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ecRir/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
Framedragger: (the 79.98.25.168 pop is interesting tho, as some of these hosting-company-i-use boxen get provisioned with everything installed, and i'm sure as fuck that "not all" customers regen ssh host keys. so there may be more pops, or other interesting goodness. probably the whole /16 is worthy of getting properly port-scanned, lots of broken stuff there i'm sure - if anyone has time etc)
mircea_popescu: phf for the obvious reason, the horde of consumers want to do what other people have done. the idea is for terrorists to not be able to communicate with upstanding, law abiding citizens, not the other way around.
mircea_popescu: gotta stop the spread of "fake news" and other burgeois propaganda.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "Unicode on UNIX is only madness if you force it on everything. But that's not how Unicode on UNIX works. UNIX does not have a distinction between unicode and byte APIs. They are one and the same which makes them easy to deal with." (from thing guy linked, http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-is-probably-never-going-to-support-python-3/#comment-119991 ).
mircea_popescu: obviously... except until www gets involved and you have escaped code points vs bytestream
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9460417F17B2CD1F76F6DB069E697C5DABA33283141E06F1ABA005ACF08CD48F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1432...5707 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.25.168 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.25.168 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.mokamediagroup.com. LT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/100CAE7A776AD64680BA79678B251D0FED4E74ED5809C0CB72E443D006DF15CB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1352...2407 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '87.118.232.174 (ssh-rsa key from 87.118.232.174 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A61730B2012A2336FD271D000CA46DC5653BB1D1D0EDE99267BCD2D8ABE8D49F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1514...6497 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.25.160 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.25.160 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.admode.lt. LT)
mircea_popescu: aanyway. the moral broadly speaking is that there's a windows-niggers-and-other-idiots python ("windows-niggers-and-other-idiots" which is how you decode "3" in unicode) and a normal people python which finally became stable cca 2010 and thanks god.
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578252 << as long as they fit into the head (like alexandria), fine for me. why are you asking?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 02:33 ben_vulpes: does the lispy lordship have opinions to share about cl extension libs like "alexandria" and "metabang-bind"?
mircea_popescu: jurov hey, do you have any worn old screens ?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578252 << the two are different beasts. alexandria by design is a set of helper functions that wouldn't be out of place in the standard (complete with sometimes obtuse names!), some like with-gensyms doplist flatten iota if/when-let i've seen reimplemented all over the place. bind is more of a everything and kitchen sink replacement for builtin operators☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 02:33 ben_vulpes: does the lispy lordship have opinions to share about cl extension libs like "alexandria" and "metabang-bind"?
jurov: mircea_popescu: no and iirc i never used them
mircea_popescu: oh i thought you bought one of the first ones.
phf: ben_vulpes: if you were to use bind everywhere you can use it (e.g. as a replacement for let, destructuring-bind) your code is going to look sufficiently different that it's not clear if you're even programming in common lisp at that point. makes the result less readable for other cl programmers, and code becomes harder to future proof. the tradeoff is generally seen as not worth it (too intrusive for little payoff)
jurov: mircea_popescu: just looked into storage to be sure, nope. but by time screens came out, i got scared by amounts you(plural) invested into eulora and gave up on it
mircea_popescu: darn
mircea_popescu: they kinda became rare and are selling for crazy, 500%+ premiums.
mircea_popescu: anyway. any tool bps or stuff ? many things went up a lot.
jurov: i doubt it, gave up on creating tools long before that
mircea_popescu: aite.
jurov had once amassed almost-significant amount of eulora stuff ... in a claim that vanished :D
mircea_popescu: that sucks.
mircea_popescu: anyway, you should prolly go through your inventory and hold a garage sale / auction. prices changed a lot since a year ago
jurov: ok
shinohai: I had nearly all my stuff in claims until I found out they vanish sporadically, so back to Electron it all went.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2016/a-collection-of-distinctions/#comment-120002 << mega-thread continued
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/TzZnb << moar re: the crispy critters from earlier thread
phf: this happens to squats all the time, but i don't think that the fatalities are as high in civilized world, because people tend to understand what they get into when they squat. sucks, because it's likely to make getting warehouses for legitimate use trickier in the future
trinque: asciilifeform: suppose vectored sigs exist, and having provided a weasel route through V, nobody ever actually swears to an item in full.
asciilifeform: trinque: then these same weasels, revealed to be weasels, don't get ticket to mircea_popescu's mars ship
asciilifeform: as described in his reply
asciilifeform: weasels are not created by weasel-routes.
asciilifeform: nor are men created from idiot chickens via wing-clipping
trinque: no, but it invites them to the party
mircea_popescu: i r writing a reply fwiw.
asciilifeform: they invite themselves to every party, neh?
phf: i know a guy who lives in a shipping container (actually mutliple shipping containers welded together) in that area, but he built it himself, he works with steel and propane and is generally a competent person (he lives on his shop grounds). when i read the story i though maybe a warehouse rave caught on fire, but apparently the idiots were living there? it'll just make the authorities take a closer look at oakland warehouses and fuck
phf: things up for not idiots
asciilifeform: phf: the funny bit is: if fire safety laws were to be enforced in usa, most if not all of the suburban idiotboxes would be condemned and bulldozed
asciilifeform: they are made of cardboard, of paper, and burn like old newspaper, regularly
shinohai: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzAXbebWEAE4riS.jpg <<< lulz (+10 for accuracy )
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/missouri-governor-elects-wife-robbed-at-gunpoint-in-saint-louis/ << Qntra - Missouri Governor Elect's Wife Robbed At Gunpoint In Saint Louis
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: This is why electric code now includes puzzles like "arc fault" circuit breaker.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform answer't.
asciilifeform reads.
diana_coman: fwiw I kept trying to digest asciilifeform's proposed categories, but I must confess I would still have trouble deciding on one or another; basically my clear categories would really be binary: I'm USING this or I WILL NOT USE this; the rest I would rather expect to be sorted by competence meaning that one who wants to write a patch for eulora would better get a "I'm using this" from someone involved with eulora, not from his t
diana_coman: eacher of computer science, no matter how great/capable that teacher might be
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: answr'd
asciilifeform: diana_coman: he had a point, only 1 bit is really machine-usable
mircea_popescu: diana_coman that part, of "who", is kinda baked in the design as it is, because of the .seals
trinque: and the -1 doesn't undermine the opposability with "eh, I never actually read this" and etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform back atcha.
asciilifeform: trinque: expand plox
trinque: the signed curse would be stood by in court / at the gallows, whereas something like "I am responsible for some of this" is what, the part that killed my goat, or "always not that part" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: answr'd2
asciilifeform: trinque: proposed vectorizer concerned ~texts~, not facts
asciilifeform: 'the picture of the pipe,' if you will, not the pipe.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578290 << for completeness sake, i'm not sure if what is done here multiple times a day is the thing he meant, i.e.: key verification :/☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 14:23 mircea_popescu: "I never ever ever successfully used the WoT to validate a public key." ie what we do here multiple times a day ?
trinque: point being the "I am responsible for some" becomes meaningless because no one will ever be pinned down by that.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger "using the wot to validate a public key".
mircea_popescu: seems this is exactly defined as "get X's key from Y you trust". observe :
mircea_popescu: !!key Framedragger
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/vMWvd/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: !#s "!!key"
a111: 62 results for "\"!!key\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22!!key%22
mircea_popescu: 62 times.
Framedragger: and how the hell do you know that what thing-calling-self-deedbot gave you over fleanode is thing-you-requested?
mircea_popescu: not only is it done, and done tons, contrary to his "never" : but it is eminently administrable and accountable, as i just proved.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger because if it isn't, X will complain.
mircea_popescu: that's what WOT-verified even means!
Framedragger: hmm. i mean, sure, it just.. seems awfully promisetronic, to peruse local lingo.
Framedragger: "X will complain some time maybe"
mircea_popescu: "promisetronic" in the sense of "not rippletronic/ethereumtronic/etc" is a good thing.
Framedragger: oh, sure, i understand that the scheme as currently implemented *actually works* :p
trinque: as far as the lying wire is concerned, that's solved by a different gadget
trinque: wouldn't be appropriate to approach that ad hoc
mircea_popescu: ^
mircea_popescu: once gossipd, this objection entirely vanishes.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: but what oftentimes ends up happening when you request key from deedbot is that the requester then promptly uses that key to encrypt $text, and ping recipient with a public url to $text. the fact that there's been no mitm, i think, only shows that the lizards do not find this place important enough (for better or worse, etc)
Framedragger: suresure. awaiting godot!
Framedragger: (i kid)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what happens when you go to a bar and order a drink is that the bartender pours you a drink.
mircea_popescu: you see this as an argument against bars ?
mircea_popescu: bar fraud ?
mircea_popescu: the reason is that large scale crime syndicates don't... think bars important enough ?
Framedragger: hmh. i guess it counts as "key verification" then. hm
mircea_popescu: see, allowing a well tailored pyramid of risk eating is not bad. it's good.
mircea_popescu: maybe i have a really important message and i send it 2nd, what.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578425 << what if the result is that X is dead ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 17:03 mircea_popescu: Framedragger because if it isn't, X will complain.
mircea_popescu: maybe what you see is just a decoy. etc etc.
asciilifeform: so far the sappers have gotten to err >1ce
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ytou can't talk to dead xen
asciilifeform: this may not always hold.
asciilifeform: point is that you don't always get a gossptronic takeback.
asciilifeform: what if the decision to launch rockets or not has to be made based on signature NOW ?
mircea_popescu: then the whole thing was badly designed and whoever deserves to lose.
mircea_popescu: now is no part of strategy.
asciilifeform: unrewindable 'nows' are part of physical reality.
Framedragger: (this whole "request key before i encipher" seems weird to me at any rate. store the keys, have some out-of-band way of verifying them, and use them when needed. but i understand that the current mechanism is useful, and iirc i must have used it myself, even)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is quite impossible to meaningfully cryptographicate with a stranger
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it's "request keys before relationship"
mircea_popescu: everything starts somewhere.
phf: i think key reliance here is very much ~wot~ very similar to how otc used to operate. i.e. if there's no identity outside of key, then key-identity-trust are all tied together. nobody sends anybody sensitive command/control/comm without knowing them first. i had a version of asciilifeform's key for years, and my knowledge of asciilifeform was build on multiple verifications of asciikey-asciilifeform-rating entity
Framedragger: right, right. it just appears that !!key is being used for established relationships, too. but, again, i guess, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578425 etc☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 17:03 mircea_popescu: Framedragger because if it isn't, X will complain.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger give an example ?
Framedragger: hm. i could be wrong. maybe http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1569436 , http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-28#1549905 ?☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 01:06 asciilifeform: !!key BingoBoingo
a111: Logged on 2016-09-28 20:31 shinohai: !!key thestringpuller
Framedragger: (i guess WoT trust had been simply deferred to deedbot until those points in time, etc)
mircea_popescu: 1st seems more like spot check and 2nd i'm not sure the two did have a prior relationship
asciilifeform: ftr it was a spot check, i had existing copy of BingoBoingo's key
asciilifeform: (they matched)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger understand, it makes 0 difference that you "exist" in the sense of, have a tight relationship with your gf. existence is solipsistic, you exist to X once X bothers to get your key.
shinohai: I didn't have a prior copy of thestringpuller 's key in that instance.
Framedragger: kk.
asciilifeform: 94.50.199.25 - - [06/Dec/2016:17:19:17 +0000] "GET /.bash_profile HTTP/1.1" 404 1014 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.1) Gecko/2008070208 Firefox/3.0.1" "-" [ snipped bunch of very very similar ] << lel
Framedragger: A for effort?
asciilifeform: GET /.secret << where does this even exist
mircea_popescu: heh
trinque: aim moar www at home directories!
asciilifeform: GET /.private << lel
mircea_popescu: dude wtf, isn't all www run off a "public_html" or similar homedir ?
Framedragger: i bet `GET /../../../../etc/passwd` still works often enough :p
asciilifeform: normally these scripts make some logical sense
mircea_popescu: Framedragger but passwd is encrypted neh ?
asciilifeform: and correspond to obvious possible oopses
asciilifeform: in his case, it's a bunch of wtf
mircea_popescu: maybe he's from the future.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: ya but iirc folx have attempted to crack things, and maybe it was some shitty hashing scheme before? dunno. but i've seen similar in old logs
asciilifeform: ... or distant past
mircea_popescu: afaik passwd encryption was strong.
asciilifeform: neh, in classical times it was just salted hash
asciilifeform: (today, often, also)
mircea_popescu: afaik it was des ?
phf: passwd didn't actually have passwords in it, encrypted or hashed, for many decades. even classical unixes have switched to shadow, which is usually not readable by anyone but root
mircea_popescu: there is also that.
asciilifeform: phf: you can still enumerate usernames with /etc/passwd, which i assume is the point of shooting in the dark at it
asciilifeform: then you take your 100,000,001 leaked lusernames+pwhashes, the subset you bruteforced, and fire away
Framedragger: ahyeah, i also remember reading about folx extracting /etc/shadow due to bad file permissions, god knows why
phf: well shadow for a longest time was md5 hashed (on linuxes anyway), so there was a nice window where you could with some craftiness extract passwords out of it
phf: !#s john the ripper
a111: 0 results for "john the ripper", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=john%20the%20ripper
asciilifeform: it went exactly like 'brainwallet mining' goes today
asciilifeform: sit and stab at your leisure
asciilifeform: makes a fine party game, key in a pw and see if it corresponds to any of 100,000,001 hashed lusers
phf: actually i'm wrong it's not even md5, it's a version of DES
mircea_popescu: sounds like two-decade-legacy stuff
phf: actually i'm wrong again, crypt takes special $id$salt$encrypted format, where id is 1/2/5/6 for md5/blowfish/sha256/sha512. on the box where i looked that up all the passwords are $1$
mircea_popescu: ahahaha lmao
phf: it's a glibc2 variant, i wonder what openbsd does..
mircea_popescu: in other random words, https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/derick-ion.jpg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dafuq's that
mircea_popescu: "art".
asciilifeform: fart
phf: ^ http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/content/kgo/images/cms/automation/vod/1638700_1280x720.jpg
asciilifeform: gavin?!
asciilifeform: or wait... is that the warehouse d00d
mircea_popescu: phf ubuntu has a bunch of "rtkit:*:15016:0:99999:7:::"
mircea_popescu: supposedly... * means "account disabled" and null means no pw needed.
asciilifeform: kinda lulzy usgism that these flags are separate; rather like an auto with 4 instead of 1 brake pedals
asciilifeform: all enemy needs to do is to flip 'disabled' bit off, while keeping 'no pw' bit...
mircea_popescu: yeah not a very good scheme. anyway, convention is pw field uses $ver$pw, and i see ubuntu sets it to 6.
mircea_popescu: ie sha512
asciilifeform: wtf is even the point of a salt if it is kept in the same place as the hash
mircea_popescu: which salt ?
asciilifeform: load the salt into kernel ram on bootup via toggle switches.
shinohai: lol
asciilifeform: salt in general, in 'we hash pw with salt' schemes
mircea_popescu: i think it's just a pw hash.
mircea_popescu: (salt, it should be pointed out, is nonsense leftover from the "md5 is broken and that's ok" days. if your hash needs a salt you need a new hash.)
phf: asciilifeform: i think it's specifically to prevent rainbow tables
asciilifeform: idea isn't 'needs a salt' but that having a machine-local salt makes brute force exponentially more expensive regardless of what hash algo was used.
phf: or what mp said
asciilifeform: it is not per se a dumb idea.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally i intend to use this in eulora - have the privkey file encrypted, and have both a client-wide settable prefix and a password
phf: also those flags are not separate, but in the same field. difference between "anyone can login" and "can
mircea_popescu: "set this if you want only this machine to be able to run your account", long time a holy grail of high-value game accounts
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwat... what means 'only this machine'
phf: "can't login" is literally one symbol. obviously i've seen that on compromised machines, somewhere in that large column of of id:*:... there would be a random system account with :: go look
asciilifeform: anyone with your key, is you, runs your account, fucks your wives, etc
mircea_popescu: only if they also have the game client you use.
mircea_popescu: otherwise... your pw won't work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for some reason i thought that the client src was published
mircea_popescu: yes, but you'll be able to set the salt in config, is the point.
asciilifeform: how does that differ from enter-the-pw ?
asciilifeform: or does it reduce to pw that breaks into two pieces.
mircea_popescu: that a keylogger won't find it.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: aah ok
mircea_popescu: a better yubikei or such, if you prefer.
asciilifeform: reasonable
mircea_popescu: not some sort of genius thing ; but leaps anmd bounds above what eg blizzard offers.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; still not entirely convinced as to WHAT to use to encrypt the eulora-privkey with.
asciilifeform: brainkeyed rsa?
mircea_popescu: uh.
mircea_popescu: no i mean symmetric something.
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: abused rsa.
mircea_popescu: same principle as bitcoin wallet.
mircea_popescu: i was thinking maybe someone gets abused cs done in time.
asciilifeform: ( it is not clear to me that rsa-abused-as-symmetriccipher is in any way worse than to use the idiot usg ciphers. )
asciilifeform: or it.
asciilifeform: but same principle
mircea_popescu: anyway - even if the client src is published - it will ship with pw_prefix = "" pw_suffix ="". if you edit these and recompile your pw won't work on stock or anyone else's client, and there's no rule you have to compile on the exact machine you use. you can keep the src in your safe and run object code.
mircea_popescu: yes one could dissect it to find the cappers and fuck your pw, but this is a lot less easy than most anythingelse.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/oakland-warehouse-destroyed-by-artist-infestation/ << Qntra - Oakland Warehouse Destroyed By "Artist" Infestation
mircea_popescu: game accounts from what i currently known are compromised through 1) "dude used password as a password", perhaps with debian-strengtheners as per http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-24#1558621 and 2) drive-by flash / activex / webshit exploit.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-24 16:26 mircea_popescu: "Avoid easy selections, such as qwerty or password. If you want to pick an easy-to-remember but somewhat unique password, consider a variation of a word, such as a1rPl4nE for airplane."
mircea_popescu: poor BingoBoingo is oppressed by a manifest news drought.
shinohai: Last month was my driest since I started.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Seriously. "How the redditards live" made today's paper.
asciilifeform: meanwhile: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/crate.jpg
mircea_popescu: that looks a lot like a crate full of electronic parts.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Though Governor elect's wife robbed in "nice" part of StL is awful lulzy
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is very lulzy because a VERY similar fire in bucharest resulted in a govt shuffle.
mircea_popescu: !~google incendiu colectiv
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Incendiul din clubul Colectiv - Wikipedia: <https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiul_din_clubul_Colectiv>; Colectiv nightclub fire - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colectiv_nightclub_fire>; UN AN DE LA TRAGEDIA DIN COLECTIV . Portretele celor 64 - Stiri: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: almost exactly a year ago
BingoBoingo: I await Twitter and startup creatures complaining about more street people.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/aussie-faces-investigation-after-defending-dog-from-viscious-roo-attack/ << Qntra - Aussie Faces Investigation After Defending Dog From Viscious Roo Attack
BingoBoingo: !~later tell cazalla http://qntra.net/2016/12/aussie-faces-investigation-after-defending-dog-from-viscious-roo-attack/
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: It waz cazalla ... in the outback ... with a lead pipe.
mats: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-05#1577947 nop☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-05 16:01 asciilifeform: mats ?
mats: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578394 not true, see e.g. pg8 of http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/news-and-research/fire-statistics/overall-fire-statistics/ostrends.pdf☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 16:31 asciilifeform: phf: the funny bit is: if fire safety laws were to be enforced in usa, most if not all of the suburban idiotboxes would be condemned and bulldozed
asciilifeform: mats: i strongly suspect that the vast tracts of UNINHABITED suburban shitboxes pull the overall fire stats downwards.
asciilifeform: (they are typically kept without mains power)
phf: meanwhile at asciilifeform's secret lair, http://68.media.tumblr.com/777c5ef9c401f1b5dc87e6b0d4a62331/tumblr_ohojvpsbsr1u3vseto1_500.jpg
asciilifeform: lel i think that's mircea_popescu's lair
asciilifeform: all that empty space!1111111
mircea_popescu: meh, what's with the ugly costume.
mircea_popescu: certainly high density overvalued property (ny, sf, etc) is unmaintained to standards.
mircea_popescu: this is perpetually the case, the people who live in high density live there because they can't afford lower density ; but the needs of various countermeasures are greater the higher the density (exponentially).
mircea_popescu: so if poorfag gets a dollar, he's much more likely to apply that dollar towards going further away from the high density rats nest than towards getting the very high density rats nest closer to habitable standard.
mircea_popescu: and so the plague, and the great fire of london, and so on.
asciilifeform: why mircea_popescu in buenos aires and not patagonia , then..?
mircea_popescu: cheap low density is one way to put it.
mircea_popescu: really, the notion that buenos aires is a CITY is ridiculous on its face.
mircea_popescu: you realise it's about five times the size of new york ? it's a village.
asciilifeform: why was new york 'compacted' as it was? it isn't as if there were no room to 'flatten' it
mircea_popescu: because immigrants.
asciilifeform: i.e. orcs who don't particularly care how densely packed ? and in b.a. they do..?
mircea_popescu: as in, orcs flooded new york ; bereft of any means to do anything ; ended up in harlem.
mircea_popescu: nazis flooded ba, with gold. moved out.
BingoBoingo: Lettuce not forget to lol at "artists" thinking themselves better than the building trades
mircea_popescu: plenty of those here as well.
mircea_popescu: !!up Guest13734
deedbot: Guest13734 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: eh.
mircea_popescu: !!up Guest73114
deedbot: Guest73114 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: in other views, http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/against-the-hard-fork/
asciilifeform: http://www.truthcoin.info/images/jeremy-rubin-affair.txt << i recall this! but had nfi how it ended
mircea_popescu: in other lulz :
mircea_popescu: !~google fiverr "may not be contacted at this time"
phf: tmsr, the third group
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: (Username) may not be contacted at this time - Fiverr Forum: <http://forum.fiverr.com/discussion/what-does-username-may-not-be-contacted-at-this-time-mean/>; what means " may not be contacted at this time "? - Fiverr Forum ...: <http://forum.fiverr.com/discussion/what-means-may-not-be-contacted-at-this-time/>; Alert!: Usermay not be contacted at this time . - Fiverr Forum ...: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: ^ idiots managed to fuck up their site ; all links to answers are 404
shinohai: Probably because they paid someone from fiverr to admin their servers! :D
BingoBoingo: Fiverrception!
mircea_popescu: lol!
asciilifeform: still trying to harness small animals to pull cart, mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what do you mean "what came of it" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah i assumed that the students were expelled, jailed
mircea_popescu: no, no. more bezzle : the new jersey lawyers get to pretend like they ACHIEVED ; the eff get to pretend like they mattered ; the students get to pretend they were cool.
mircea_popescu: they managed to sell the same apple three times.
BingoBoingo: lol "But there’s something special about Comet Ping Pong, and it’s that distinctive character, sadly, that may have allowed the campaign against it to fester. Comet is, after all, D.C.’s weirdo pizza place."
mircea_popescu: this is the true cause of us law prolixity / enforcement sparsity.
BingoBoingo: "In the venue’s all-ages policy, a time-honored practice of radical inclusion in the D.C. punk scene, they see a cover for pedophilia."
mircea_popescu: all age punk scene ? what the fuck ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: interestingly, in so far as that type of joint goes, pedopizza is imho pretty good. i guess small chillunz make good pizza topping
BingoBoingo: lol
phf: in russia punk scene was also all age, you just showed up. here it means that everyone's allowed, but none's allowed to have fun
mircea_popescu: salted fetus. like anchovies.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaaah they plead, didn't they.
mircea_popescu: phf i dunno wtf punk schene this is, but children were never allowed anywhere near, to my knowledge.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform butofcourse.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, define children? an pissed tike in a dirty косуха could be of any age for all anybody cares. but certainly not in a sense of "child-friendly outing"
mircea_popescu: enforced through the dual a) must be able to handle being punched b) must have tits approach.
mircea_popescu: phf male children, you crack lightly nose bleeds / eyes leak.
mircea_popescu: female children, no 2ndary sexual characteristics.
mircea_popescu: im npot even aware people were allowed to be married ; let alone have children. really, punk fathers ?
mircea_popescu: sounds like tales from the future.
asciilifeform: buncha stimulating items in mircea_popescu's link btw. e.g., http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest
asciilifeform: in so far as heathens go, this one is worth writing to imho
mircea_popescu: pretty sure the guy reads the log with some sort of frequency.
phf: "sorry-for-you-loss cutthroat meritocracy"
phf: oh yeah, of course i remember it as "everyone was children", but there was a cutoff point. "younger brother" sort of thing
asciilifeform: seems like he runs something that looks like an attempt at distributed-chickens bbet
phf: dc punk scene reminds me of this story i read at some point by an отморозок trying to run some hustle in london. at some point he says he saw some suspiciously clean looking skinheads, so was about to go "how are you brothers" until he saw that the two were holding hands. after that he goes on a long rant about how london skinheads are all fags, etc.
asciilifeform: ( i suspect that this is one of those perpetuum mobile attractors that will continue to eat people more or less forever, this 'bbet reddit' thing )
mircea_popescu: to my eyes the whole "social media" is running out of attraction juice, but what do i know.
mircea_popescu: phf ironically punk (90s, romania) was uncharacteristically tolerant of faggotry. discreet, but present. "rockers" much less tolerant.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: This particular heathen iirc visited befor
shinohai: http://archive.is/uNkYw <<< Train your children young to accept others controlling their private keys
mircea_popescu: "kids will virtual currency too" ? what is this, illiterate indians will preet as well ?
phf: "The Disrupt Hackathon is a 24 Hour event preceding the annual Disrupt London conference organized by TechCrunch."
mircea_popescu: pedophile old men like paul graham & friends used to CORRUPT the athenian youth
mircea_popescu: apparently now they disrupt it.
mircea_popescu: same cornhole tears result either way.
mircea_popescu: but on the other side of the coin, "As you probably already know, but my trademark thoroughness still obliges me to say, AI stands for "Artificial Intelligence" and comes in two flavors, "deterministic" (like minmax) and "statistical" (like SVM). The combined efforts of various researches lead to an important breakthrough in this field, known to meteorologists as "the AI winter". This is the season when you can't get any VC m
mircea_popescu: oney if you mention AI anywhere in your business plan."
mircea_popescu: yosefk, eminently readable.
mircea_popescu: "If the thing is even remotely close to "intelligent", you can no longer issue commands; you must explain yourself and ask for something and then it will misunderstand you." << he's wrong, incidentally. intelligent and obedient are not in any way orthogonal, a matter i have verified experimentally to my satisfaction.
asciilifeform: he did say 'intelligent', rather than intelligent !1111
asciilifeform: you can't buy intelligent at the comp shop.
asciilifeform: (plenty of 'intelligent' tho)
mircea_popescu: yes but if he is seriously contemplating a distinction along those lines his whole piece just exploded into unrelatable islands.
mircea_popescu: as the idea is to make ai not a"i". THAT we already have.
asciilifeform: the way i read it, he was talking about something like http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/07/wolfram-alpha-and-hubristic-user.html .
asciilifeform: 'The error is that control interfaces must not be intelligent. Briefly, intelligent user interfaces should be limited to applications in which the user does not expect to control the behavior of the product. If the product is used as a tool, its interface should be as unintelligent as possible. Stupid is predictable; predictable is learnable; learnable is usable.'
mircea_popescu: well it's also not clear the interface/drill bit dichotomy is supported by his piece.
asciilifeform: !#s http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/07/wolfram-alpha-and-hubristic-user.html
a111: 4 results for "http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/07/wolfram-alpha-and-hubristic-user.html", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Funqualified-reservations.blogspot.com%2F2009%2F07%2Fwolfram-alpha-and-hubristic-user.html
asciilifeform: ^ thread.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which yosefk piece was this btw..?
mircea_popescu: http://yosefk.com/blog/ai-problems.html
mircea_popescu: i must confes : that i am not sufficiently an idealist to presume some sort of "human-brain-substance" that's somehow irreproducible in any other paradigm than via cunt-perl.
mircea_popescu: i guess in his terms this makes me an ai weenie. you know, like hofstadter.
asciilifeform: there are 2 types of ai skeptic, the 'vitalists' ('immortal soul') and the 'shambling horror of computer', 'we don't even know how to make a spreadshit that dun crash' folk.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform is the 2nd type
mircea_popescu: i can grant that ai is a psychiatric issue of plenty of computer programmers ; i can even grant that it is perhaps best to pretend like ai is "impossible" in the sense he means to perhaps cure the idiots.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/liberal-west-today-merkel-announces-burqa-ban/ << Qntra - "Liberal" West Today: Merkel Announces Burqa Ban
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the brain is a shambling horror of cells.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody has any fucking idea how to replicate the fault-tolerance of meat, afaik.
asciilifeform: hell, we don't even have a working ornithopter, and the problem is, what, 800+ yrs old as posed.
mircea_popescu: understand that in order for the cunt to work, you don't have to understand its parts and mechanisms. iraqi "elite forces" use bridges and cartridges just fine even though they evidently can't make either.
mircea_popescu: people who believe in immaculate conception manage to reproduce just fine etc.
asciilifeform: that's not the issue; airplane worked just fine but was not adequately explained in physical terms until '50s (and if you are a stickler for rigour, even today)
mircea_popescu: quite.
asciilifeform: (see also von karman.)
mircea_popescu: "explain turbulence" etc.
mircea_popescu: now then : the issue of arbitrarily hard ai existing / being produced is separate of same being produced ~by you~. for any definition of you.
asciilifeform: ( likewise the workings of, e.g., a FET, are quite different from what digital engineer learns in school, and ~nobody designs ~anything using the actual equations as understood by maxwell et al )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: quite correct
asciilifeform: we already know 1 method for producing it. just not yet - afaik - a 2nd.
mircea_popescu: yet the rule says 0, 1, infinitits.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: but then again : the most hardcore anti-ai stance, and the one to which i vaguely subscribe, is to observe that the 1 is entirely illusory
mircea_popescu: see the "your brain is not a thinking mechanism" discussions.
asciilifeform: observation was not 'it is impossible', 'liek heavier-than-air flight!11111' but that none of the approaches ever tried afaik have led to anything of interest.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the approaches "ever tried" have been "ever tried" in a short period of history which is chiefly distinguished by the incredible quality that NONE of the approaches tried, in ANY fields, worked to any degree or produced anything of interest.
asciilifeform: the 1 piece you can 'take to the bank' is that it is idiocy to consider solutions to a problem that is not even actually defined.
mircea_popescu: be they "how to run your household" or "how do do war and diplomacy" or anything else ABSOLUTELY.
mircea_popescu: the "consumer" is not an answer to any valid question in socioeconomics ; the "unique" says nothing interesting of the http/html/web-of-blabla. and on it goes.
mircea_popescu: the same 60-70 years that failed to produce anything woreth the mention in ai also failed to produce an even vaguely coherent model of the state, or of any sort of identity in any field, or of you pick it. not even their distribution models work.
asciilifeform: there is not so much that was made that is worth remembering... the FET? RSA..?
mircea_popescu: perhaps rsa. though i'm entirely unconvinced it's not to be found in medieval arithmetics.
asciilifeform pictures archimedes's lost rsa
trinque: it's entirely possible - and I think likely - that what counts for human intelligence does not run in a single human head
mircea_popescu: we agree, hence my various stances on language and its effects.
asciilifeform: 'what is soldier's deadliest weapon'
asciilifeform: 'his radio'
mircea_popescu: "shovel"
asciilifeform: shovel - 2nd.
mircea_popescu: (classical antiquity take on it - they didn't have radios)
asciilifeform: they might have answered: 'bugle'
mircea_popescu: anyway, the idea was similar - war is won by the shovel means same thing, that indirect effects drown out direct effects.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-06#1578710 << https://www.amazon.com/dp/1558605959 classic book on subj☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-06 22:21 trinque: it's entirely possible - and I think likely - that what counts for human intelligence does not run in a single human head
mircea_popescu: "i've never seen anything remotely as annoying as prolog, with the notable exception of makefiles, running on top of a wonderful inference engine of their own" << ahaha!
trinque: ty phf
asciilifeform: phf: i had earlier edition of iirc that thing (the one with the ants on the cover) at umd
asciilifeform always pictured, when hearing phrase 'ant colony optimization', lowering the speaker into an anthill and asking him to please optimize! before he is eaten
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 442245 | Current Difficulty: 2.867657668205504E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 443519 | Next Difficulty In: 1274 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 10 hours, 29 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: what do anthills supposedly optimize ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: term referred to an algo where you have 10,000,001 simulated ants, or bees, etc., navigating your phase space and leaving 'pheromonal trails' for one another
mircea_popescu: (this is my stock question to cut the new age-y idiots at the knees. "oh ant colony optimizes" "what ?". sooner or later they realise they can't actually SAY what the fuck it is, because it's not a scalar ; nor a vector nor a bitfield. yes they optimize something, now put it in a hard typed language. what is it ?)
mircea_popescu: yes yes.
phf: asciilifeform: i think the ant one is the algo book, where's eberhart is an overview
jurov: ants supposedly optimize paths to food. but slime mold can do it too, without pheromone trails that have potential to make cycles
mircea_popescu: jurov this "ants optimize paths to food" is like saying "trump won the election". o, really, he did ?
mircea_popescu: it works as a retrospective, "looking at this anthill, it becomes evident it mostly managed to feed itself historically". yes. so... what.
jurov: they could use drunk walk or quantum bogosort or something.. they don't
phf: i think that's one of standard thinker childhood experiences, making a closed loop in the ant pheromone trail
mircea_popescu: dropping the abstract for a concrete anecdote here :
mircea_popescu: this country has a lot of foraging ant species. i enjoy watching them. on numerous occasions i have observed individual ant dragging acer type seed.
mircea_popescu: the general impression is of an ant that decided to take up yachting
mircea_popescu: the sail blows in the wind, topples it, the animal will happily spend half an hour spinning in a dime's area.
mircea_popescu: you'd think they had wind back in 50`000`000 bc back when ants were a hot new gizmo.
mircea_popescu: but apparently... the acer seed / wind combo hasn't needed any optimization or anything hence.
asciilifeform: quite possibly that ant -- or that seed -- came with the spanish ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno.
asciilifeform: so perhaps not
mircea_popescu: contradicts my naive expectations as to what "optimization" is.
asciilifeform: the one thing it most definitely is, is very very slow.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what, so they didn't have samarae where the ant came from ?
asciilifeform: i couldn't begin to hazard a guess. but - who knows - perhaps ~had~, but somehow not ant-compatible.
mircea_popescu: how about we just agree that the data type of the optimized variable is not computable.
asciilifeform: anyone recall those wasps ? the ones that can eat a beehive in 15 min. or so
mircea_popescu: yes, they optimized. what ? von kaman's underpants, that's what.
jurov: i can only guess neurons are too expensive and having extra to avoid above spinning is not...optimal
asciilifeform: lethal to all bees but a species somewhere in jp, that knows the pill against the wasp (surround it, and kill with own head)
asciilifeform: *heat
asciilifeform: own heat.
mircea_popescu: jurov yes, but the trouble is not only that your guess is not formal - it's that your guess is not formalizable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what are your expectations of 'data type' ?
mircea_popescu: pretend you're a programmer, and use yours.
asciilifeform: then i say 'function'
mircea_popescu: you know, data type. that i can put in an ada-like manual and write a compiler for.
mircea_popescu: lol function. oookay.
asciilifeform: takes inputs from the beast's sensory organs and gives outputs for its locomotive organs.
asciilifeform: (e.g., wings)
mircea_popescu: and the anthill optimizes for the ... pointer to the function which is... the element of the anthill ?
mircea_popescu: what's this, "i'll make sure the turing machine don't ever stop, i'm having too much fun" ?
asciilifeform: anthill, if said to optimize for something (and this is at least mildly sinful, somewhat like describing the operation of a submarine as 'swimming') optimizes for energy/food ROI.
trinque: if it were optimizing solely for energy it would be better off not existing
asciilifeform: trinque: there are nonexistent anthills everywhere around you!1111 even in your nostril
jurov: maximize biomass of the species?
asciilifeform: these are the most successful, if you permit division by 0...
mircea_popescu: anyway - the reason the yaching ant is such a good example is because - it COULD just fucking cut off the god damned sail. couldn't it ? just drag the seed without the air drag ?
jurov: anyway, if it's not optimization, what does mircea_popescu call the its-not-doing-drunk-walk phenomenon?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: examples like your ant abound. consider the infamous sphex wasp
mircea_popescu: jurov i call it being an ant.
mircea_popescu: there's no requirement that the world makes sense in my categories, see.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tru.
mircea_popescu: "anthill optimizes for anthood" is a very true if not particularly useful statement. and the type of "anthood" variable could be... "anthillyness".
mircea_popescu: and wo and behold, we're about to reinvent wikipedia.
jurov: "could fucking cut off the sail" is formalizable but "having extra neurons to be able to do so" is not?
trinque: can't really said to be optimal, just that various other anthills were less so
mircea_popescu: jurov ah, mine's not formalizable either!
mircea_popescu: trinque this doesn't explain why ants aren't like trilobytes see. most species are extinct, ants are uniquelly successful at the game of life.
asciilifeform: on long enough scale, everybody's trilobyte.
trinque: maybe, maybe not
trinque: at any rate the AI thing is exactly "discover the meaning of life"
mircea_popescu: except things like dog vomit, or the previously discussed black alcohol modl. they've been here fopr a long long time now.
asciilifeform: they can't breathe red dwarf any moar than trilobyte can.
trinque: might be entirely natural to fart around on a planet for a while then get knocked by some rock onto the next one
trinque: who said those molecules give a shit about you
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's some possibility their spores made it out into outer space.
mircea_popescu: the spores are EXTRMEELY hardy.
asciilifeform: everybody is fond of 'space spores' but so far 0 clues re a 2nd place where they might work.
mircea_popescu: sure ; but they've got time.
asciilifeform: btw it might be possible to approximate ~how much time~
mircea_popescu: there's planets with wild volcanoes of ethylene in our very solar system. red dwarf may make them rather pleasant.
asciilifeform: a kind of mean-time-to-collision-with-energetic-particle-that-smashes-you
asciilifeform: (you being spore)
asciilifeform: folx putter around with crackpotteries like proton decay, but imho this is a more interesting number
mircea_popescu: could be.
asciilifeform: (if you're something like a, e.g., deinococcus radiodurans , assume it takes >1 bullet. some finite number.)
mircea_popescu: the energies required may indeed be very high.
mircea_popescu: as per the "man breaks, horse splashes" theorem.
asciilifeform: planet3, iirc, gets a particle with energy of well-thrown brick every day or so.
mircea_popescu: but afaik nobody has done serious work on "order species by spore resistance to proton beam illumination".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually!
mircea_popescu: which should prolly be a decent grant topic for the curious.
asciilifeform: but i suppose it'd depend on what means 'serious work'
mircea_popescu: i dunno, output a list of 10k items ?
asciilifeform: but 20th c. megaempires obsessively irradiated various living things, to see what comes of it.
asciilifeform: neutrons, electrons, gamma, you name it
mircea_popescu: if they did produce anything useful in the above vein i've never seen it.
asciilifeform: su was obsessed with 'radioprotector'
asciilifeform: afaik very little came of it, other than substance that induces certain side effect - gigantism in mammals
asciilifeform: (housecat that grows to german shepherd size, other side-show attractions)
mircea_popescu: in general they were directed at "interesting" things which didn't include fungi
asciilifeform: fungi also. radiosterilization is a thing
asciilifeform: and industrially lucrative
mircea_popescu: yes, but there's a very few fungi that are industrially relevant
asciilifeform: now this --- yes.
mircea_popescu: most aren't interested in your frozen tv dinner.
asciilifeform: correct.
mircea_popescu: which is why i say, not much seriouys work done on the actual topic.
mircea_popescu: governments, turns out, tend to waste their resources.
mircea_popescu: (actually, for they reading to educate : most fungi live in more or less mutualistic relationships with lichens ; a few with trees, which are advancedlichens)
asciilifeform: what, in the eyes of mircea_popescu , would count as 'serious result' in subj field ??
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> i dunno, output a list of 10k items ? <
asciilifeform: is there even 10k known species of fungus ?
mircea_popescu: there's a good few millions of species ; 10k would be a negligible dent.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: good student project!111!!!
mircea_popescu: they are some of the most diverse biota, possibly 5 to 50mn different species.
mircea_popescu: and to round off the "fungi are interesting" general literacy thread - the way most (and the most) poisonous mushrooms work is through a substance that inhibits extremely selectively rna polymerase 2. this makes the affected cells unable to reproduce, and hence the "eat destroying angel, get cramps/diarhea in three days, drop dead in 7" effect.
mircea_popescu: since recently dna understanding improved significantly, and the workings of the immune system, esp in its binding functions, became more understood ; and since complex molecule synthesis muchly developed as well, a universal cure for cancer based on the principle of getting alpha-amanitin bound to a specific tumour cell seeking protein seems altogether very feasible.
mircea_popescu: there's been various successful tests, including prostate-cancer-rat achieving complete remission through 1 iv application. so we have maybe 50-50 chances to see a ~general~ cure for cancer within our lifetime.
mircea_popescu: which is the deep reason for a major redistribution of research resources from other fashionable causes to cancer in thepast decade, as cartman aptly observed.
mircea_popescu: (general here means exactly the same it does when i say we have a general cure for infection. it's not that nobody can die of infections ; but that there's antibiotics, which mostly work.)
asciilifeform: eh pretty much every half-useful attempt at cancer has been 'bind $poison to $selector'
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: only semi-relatedly, rat models have a very obvious (to outsider) problem, that academitards pretend is not problem at all
asciilifeform: (inbred to the point of tumouring 'when you look at them sideways')
mircea_popescu: well... gotta model on something.
asciilifeform: which accounts for heroic 'cures', their cancers would last 3 seconds in a healthy organism
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> eh pretty much every half-useful attempt at cancer has been 'bind $poison to $selector' << That's essentially all of pharmacology. X fucks Y receptor
asciilifeform: it is largely why virtually no 'rat hero' substance ever leaves the rat lab.
asciilifeform: (typically it does ~0 in people)
mircea_popescu: yes, but the models sometimes do.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i dun recall the specifics but i think this may have been grafted not endogenous
asciilifeform: grafted?! even 'better'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the poison part was never the difficulty -- e.g., ricin, is even more specific 'cellular' poison
asciilifeform: rather, the 'guidance system' is.
asciilifeform: it isn't even entirely clear that 'is this a tumour cell?' is a computable function.
mircea_popescu: myeah.