log
asciilifeform: 'Public Note: Colorful eggs! You find it! Then what? Donate back to me if you like it. Other eggs are not far, I'd like to leave some clues about the pages or the keys, but I'm sleepy now.' << wat
mircea_popescu: i do not know.
mircea_popescu: but in other obscure arcana, http://68.media.tumblr.com/85dcb1cd1002b08c978b2738720da4f7/tumblr_oe8kg2KzS21v81p6qo1_1280.jpg
BingoBoingo: http://img.memecdn.com/gibsmedat-germany-monei_o_5883771.jpg
mod6: order placed.
mircea_popescu: 👍
shinohai: http://archive.is/HDX7b <<< Preeeeeeeeeeet to remain in the Trumpreich
mircea_popescu: generally rainers/torquemadas/etc are politically pliable
mircea_popescu: they just want to smell blood.
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-01#1575904 << lol, same.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-01 19:25 mircea_popescu: i have personally repaired malfunctioning electronics with a well placed hit to the side.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A1CD989C23947B860165C328E98AF5AE44F6F3931126D167976F47CA898F62F5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1717...3577 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '200.63.164.144 (ssh-rsa key from 200.63.164.144 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (200-63-164-144.static.speedy.com.ar. AR B)
asciilifeform: lol ar
asciilifeform: has world-open postgresql...?
mircea_popescu: soberania.
BingoBoingo: Also possible Trump want Preet to leave in scandal the next activist prosecution overturned on appeal
BingoBoingo: *wants
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A1CD989C23947B860165C328E98AF5AE44F6F3931126D167976F47CA898F62F5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1668...1793 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '200.63.164.144 (ssh-rsa key from 200.63.164.144 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (200-63-164-144.static.speedy.com.ar. AR B)
BingoBoingo: Related http://epmonthly.com/article/treating-chainsaw-laceration-ep-enough/ "The patient claimed that he was given a staple remover and was told to remove the staples in one week. Emergency department staff stated that they gave him a staple remover to bring to his primary care physician to have the staples removed in 12-14 days. The patient removed the staples three days after they had been placed. Two months later, the patient returne
BingoBoingo: d to the emergency department with severe pain, swelling, and warmth to his knee."
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/bitcoin-network-difficulty-up-1-76-in-modest-increase/ << Qntra - Bitcoin Network Difficulty Up ~1.76% In Modest Increase
pete_dushenski: many congrats to asciilifeform and mircea_popescu on squeeking in under the nth xmas deadline for #fuckgoats. looking forward to getting my hands on one, whatever batch that may be. will probably order a few and give as gifts to sufficiently nerdy friends.
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-29#1574565 << this is right in my backyard. also alma mater. nfi what the 'ssdpdev' program or specialty is, however.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-29 16:13 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E739A834E2CE6339A7D05EEDB78D8485695F6AA890225B692F2561197FFFFBE5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1522...2357 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '142.244.231.80 (ssh-rsa key from 142.244.231.80 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ssdpdev1.srv.ualberta.ca. CA AB)
pete_dushenski: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5436.69, vol: 2209723.55590000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5436.69
pete_dushenski: also props to trinque for the wot visualiser. nifty bidness, that.
pete_dushenski goes to update blog with link to wot.deedbot
pete_dushenski: speaking of blogs, this comment came in recently with a link to an reuters piece about how the tsx had just turfed canadian scammer king anthony di iorio as their 'chief digital officer', just as i told them to do exactly five months ago. so goddam golden. mega-satisfying even though i didn't make a penny off the prediction.
pete_dushenski: of course they framed it as fat tony 'leaving to pursue his other blockchain projects' but his days are officially over.
pete_dushenski: refresher for those who are less familiar with fat tony : he was the lead pre-mine scammer behind ethereum. he basically handpicked the autistic alien vitalik and shoved his greasy wop hand up the poor kid's butt and played him like kermit the frog.
pete_dushenski: o hey james mattis as secretary of defense.
mats: mattis is legendary among marines
pete_dushenski: good pick then eh
mats: although there's that incident involving an ODA group asking for medevac, being refused by mattis, forcing usaf to fly in from k2 with an unrested crew that didn't have maps
mats: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/01/18/the-green-berets-who-saved-karzai.html
mats: some say he wouldn't have refused, if it had been marines in the fight
mats: fwiw, it reads like he made a good call, with the information he had at the time
mats: anyway, i don't believe that combat vets (or vets of any kind) are suitable for public service in this manner
mats: the zero defect approach to officer evaluation reports and utter lack of experience managing money in a large org are not good traits
mats: they're encouraged to spend, not manage
pete_dushenski: interesting. for the ignorant, what's the 'zero defect approach' ?
mats: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-19#1137707☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-05-19 02:03 mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers
mats: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=9485
pete_dushenski reads
mats: >Top-down training directives and strategies combined with brief leader development experiences for junior officers leads to a perception that micromanagement is pervasive. They do not believe they are being afforded sufficient opportunity to learn from the results of their own decisions and actions.
pete_dushenski: aha
pete_dushenski: isn't such a faulty approach something mattis could do away with ? or too embedded ?
mats: risk aversion runs deep in the officer corps, it's hard to say
pete_dushenski: maybe a russian invasion, or at least a smattering of carpet bombing campaigns, will straighten out their obsession with risk aversion. but that might be a few decades off. unlikely trump can live that long, even if i wouldn't be surprised if he put an end to the two-term limit.
pete_dushenski: "That's the Unicode world, a world where impotence was legislated a litte further" << mircea_popescu, missing 'l'
pete_dushenski: unless its majick mikroskopick invisabru unicode 'l' tucked in there in martian font.
pete_dushenski: it's*
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/uGJTp << 'cybercriminals' going under the 'avalanche' banner are 'dismantled' by doj, europol, eurojust and... icann. moar dns plz!
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-29#1574600 << i'll pass, busy as well :) glory awaits someone!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-29 16:50 trinque: maybe Framedragger's bag
Framedragger: congratulations on FUCKGOATS, asciilifeform and mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: jurov: cloudfront errors at the ml again
Framedragger: (meanwhile in SK, great image interpretations: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/k1/IMG_20161202_151045296.jpg / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/k1/IMG_20161202_152418040_HDR.jpg / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/k1/IMG_20161202_152455846.jpg)
Framedragger: body image*
mircea_popescu: mostly him.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576123 << isn't he the guy that started the whole wedding bombing trend ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 06:16 mats: mattis is legendary among marines
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the rise and fall of the theranos lizzard club may be of interest to the alf minded.
mircea_popescu: !!up Beausoleil
deedbot: Beausoleil voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: Buenas dias mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: hhhola!
jurov: mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall
jurov: *must be
jurov: btw, if you saw news.ycombinator recently, a third of frontpage were about AWS. interesting noone noticed (or was muffled, dunno).
Framedragger: (oh god, i'll come back from asia believing that lithuania should seriously suck china's cock as much as possible so that it could *maybe* get bought by them. like, that's the best option for them. idem poland, only that the latter are way ahead (and a tad bit more autonomous from bruxelles.usa) (e.g.: coaxing chinese to invest into gdansk port; .lt's port is just about done.))
Framedragger: (there is that feeling (maybe just a feeling) that folx here (.ko) always have some spare cash. (i mean like jb financial group, etc.) whereas in yurop, everything's on the brink of bankruptcy, disaster's around the corner.)
mircea_popescu: doh.
mircea_popescu: they say traveling opens the mind of youth.
Framedragger: after reflecting upon economic cycles and the crashes to come, ii have presently assumed a state of relative tranquillity...
shinohai: How's Korea Framedragger had any mole de perro yet? xD
Framedragger: it's pretty cool :) what's that tho? i am most uncultured. lots of octopus, fish, assorted seafood was had, tho :)
mircea_popescu: dog.
Framedragger: also potato pancakes. but we have those in .lt. .lt is basically just potatoes.
mircea_popescu: eh don't be too harsh, you also have potato dumplings with a little cheese in them.
shinohai: I had iguana while I was in central america, about as exotic as I got with the locals
mircea_popescu: that's almost like not potato
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: totally. i hear you. and lots of sour cream. like srsly lots. to ease the potatoes in
mircea_popescu comes from dairy country, likes girls with big tits and eats a cup o' sour cream a day.
mircea_popescu: (srsly, napolact, the transylvania milk and dairy factory, sells sour cream in these 600g buckets.)
Framedragger: never had a thing for large asses and boobs. maybe 'cause i'm quite small...
Framedragger: lol not bad
mircea_popescu: oh im sorry. 900g.
Framedragger: hmm i guess you can, like, spill that on girls, etc.; i can see that.
shinohai: The work of a milkmaid is honorable work http://i.imgur.com/fZs0RHz.jpg
mircea_popescu: i wonder if i wrote my sandwich down
Framedragger: !#s closely watched trains
a111: 0 results for "closely watched trains", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=closely%20watched%20trains
mircea_popescu: apparently not. anyway, the mp sandwich includes a layer of sour cream.
Framedragger: this randomly reminded me of this film ^ from czechoslovakia. mircea_popescu probably knows. there's a scene with the guy stamping the girl in the train station. it's beautiful. (but for srsly. 1960s .cz film, you know)
Framedragger: hahaha cool.
mircea_popescu: i dun think i saw it.
Framedragger: totally recommend it, even if my film-recommendation-credit has run dry
mircea_popescu: lol. it's ok, films are hard to come by.
Framedragger: great cinematography
Framedragger: .cz new wave
mircea_popescu: anyway, i thought .lt also did pigs.
Framedragger: ohya. fat everywhere, lots of pig, yes indeed. there is that.
mircea_popescu: very acceptabru cuisine.
Framedragger: (i need to uh reconnect with my kin-nature or sth, forgot)
Framedragger: hard agricultural work <-> fat
Framedragger: of the same kind is fatty polish kvašnica soup. quite good.
Framedragger: (dunno how it's spelt)
mircea_popescu: eh, i'm more partial to drier, vegetable heavy, lovage ladden شوربا-style things.
mircea_popescu can't stand azn soups for all the fucking oil they put in there.
Framedragger: the oil is quite present... also did you just spell porridge in arabic script?
mircea_popescu: it's an ancient persian dish, sour meat and vegetable broth.
Framedragger: ah, sounds excellent.
Framedragger will go to iran some day
mircea_popescu: very well spread in the old world, it's çorba in turkish, ciorba in romanian, i would identify it as the core of cultural identity for non-western europe.
mircea_popescu: much like castration is the cultural identity of western europe.
Framedragger: interestingly i find the .ko boyz quite subdued, i mean in all kinds of senses incl libido, but that may very well be a very superficial impression
Framedragger: (boyz = various youth)
mircea_popescu: azns. the penii are mostly to pee with.
Framedragger: i guess i should try to talk to girls here huh
Framedragger: didn't really get the chance. except for in retrospect missed opportunities :/
mircea_popescu: dude...
mircea_popescu: drop all the stupid computer shit right now and go out and talk to all the girls you see.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this dumb shit, they ain't got computers where you live ?
Framedragger: "i'm coding". yeahyeah. i'm off to the DMZ/JSC tomorrow which is sth i wanted to go to. will have opportunity
Framedragger: maybe even tonight. you're right.
mircea_popescu: nevermind tomorrow.
mircea_popescu: what possible fucking outcome can you obtain from "coding".
Framedragger: gonna sound dumb, but not sure where i could go. i hate clubbing. i guess i should find nice places etc
mircea_popescu: just walk.
mircea_popescu: you don't have to ~go~ somewhere to meet people, especially not in ancient inhabited places like asia.
Framedragger: that's, like, good advice. makes sense
mircea_popescu: "and yet here i am."
Framedragger: gun wrap up.
Framedragger: (oh also, shot from a real gun for first time yesterday. pretty cool. never thought there'd be that much of a gun powder smell, and flash of light.)
mircea_popescu idly wonders if the hama massacre and hafez' socialist roots have anything to do with the junior bashar's poor reception in the us and ru support. the father did create an unique network of alawites all through the 80s...
mircea_popescu: Framedragger not quite as seen on tv huh.
Framedragger: yeah. good to have a concrete reference in mind i guess.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, isn't it remarkable the ustardian social media isn't up in arms about all the sex discrimination going on in iraq ? why, pray tell, ONLY MALES "of fighting age" are being suspected ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. the battle for mosul, originally slated to end about a month ago, and then upgraded to end about today, has been upgraded again to take "months" hence. i think i want a refund.
mircea_popescu: (for the innocent : there was a 2015 "we'll take mosul in spring" thing, also. you never hear anything about it today BECAUSE the key of usg behaviour is exactly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 : they make one a year. if this year's fails then "it never really happened" ; if it succeeds then "see, we always win, told you so!")☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/829D7AF9CA36744B0FA7458BD2E8394CC37B685C25AF7AEC8D0DB44D507482A9 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1549...3469 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.203.206.158 (ssh-rsa key from 89.203.206.158 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (static-89-203-206-158.ktkadan.cz. CZ)
mircea_popescu: !!up walter_
deedbot: walter_ voiced for 30 minutes.
walter_: Thanks. Anybody watching the XVC drama?
mircea_popescu: dun think so. what's xvc ?
walter_: another altcoin
mircea_popescu: anything good ?
mircea_popescu: !#s vcash
a111: 0 results for "vcash", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=vcash
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7D71650BD79BBD83129590245BD93C5B90619E785ED717D688FCFB9FAFD50818 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1531...2837 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '94.125.180.127 (ssh-rsa key from 94.125.180.127 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.vitorla.com. HU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/420578B02866959FA7F8E8C36B827E824A0B9CF6EFDFA6FD1E85669A01980BB8 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2552...9923 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '46.17.239.6 (ssh-rsa key from 46.17.239.6 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (46.17.239.6.liquidtelecom.net. GB)
walter_: yes, seems not discussed here, found nothing on qntra as well
walter_: cannot tell if "good", but what got me interested is it was 1. written from scratch, 2. advertised "innovation" (fast transactions, hybrid PoW/PoS), 3. main dev sounds arrogant but competent
mircea_popescu: lmao, what's with this anon derps taking pseudonyms from fiction ? john connor, really ?
walter_: last week was full of entertaining events for this coin
walter_: is it appropriate to discuss alts here?
mircea_popescu: it's appropriate to discuss whatever's interesting.
mircea_popescu: anywya, so obscure altcoin dropped 50% or something and there's some drama.
shinohai: Sounds like the same thing that happens with almost *every altcoin
mircea_popescu: !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/KH6NE/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/rsbcG/?raw=true
deedbot: accepted: 1
deedbot: accepted: 1
asciilifeform: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38181158 << in other lulz
mircea_popescu: "fake news" ie "not officially sanctioned lies"
asciilifeform: 'Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. "It is a real danger to democracy."'
asciilifeform: noshit
mircea_popescu: "thios website is considered a questionable source" being the giveaway. i suppose the idea is thetimes.whitehouse.gov is unquestionable ?
mircea_popescu: "i and other open source contributors" sez mr. sieradski. open source is starting to be quite shameful an association by now.
asciilifeform: oh noez, not the tritler wh!111 cnn, nyt !!
asciilifeform: latest word is that a list of sov^H^H^Hru 'stooges' is in the works, and who knows, isp filter
asciilifeform: will be a lul to watch.
mircea_popescu: oya.
mircea_popescu: recall the 90s when all the bitching was on about china's firewall ?
asciilifeform: aha!
mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
asciilifeform: hey - it's doubling down, or wagner+cyanide
asciilifeform: afaik there is not a third
mircea_popescu: at least wagner is good music.
mircea_popescu: "doubling down" has a meaning, it's not "everything idiots do when not doing wagner+cyanide"
mircea_popescu: just like investment has a meaning, it's not "anything idiots spend money on"
asciilifeform: and 'programming ain't what php rats do' etc
asciilifeform: everything ~had~, once, a meaning.
mircea_popescu looks up meaning in gns, is unaffected.
mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
thestringpuller: Not that it does anything but no error when submitting blank form >> http://i.imgur.com/3mXz6CR.png
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: that's a default eggog
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: if you submit non-GPG it give you pretty error. again not that it matters...just a thing.
mircea_popescu: not a very flattering eggog at that.
asciilifeform: will fix, brb, tea.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7D71650BD79BBD83129590245BD93C5B90619E785ED717D688FCFB9FAFD50818 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1425...1713 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '94.125.180.127 (ssh-rsa key from 94.125.180.127 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.vitorla.com. HU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/420578B02866959FA7F8E8C36B827E824A0B9CF6EFDFA6FD1E85669A01980BB8 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1430...1099 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '46.17.239.6 (ssh-rsa key from 46.17.239.6 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (46.17.239.6.liquidtelecom.net. GB)
mod6: <+jurov> mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall << ah, thanks jurov!
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> dog. << lmao
BingoBoingo: Butts
asciilifeform: thestringpuller, mircea_popescu , et al: should be fixed nao.
asciilifeform: abuse at will
asciilifeform: ty for the eagle eye, thestringpuller .
asciilifeform: and if anyone else notices an oddity of this kind, please ping asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576270 << imho this thread is worth expanding -- i remain unconvinced that chinese great firewall 'never worked'. it -- works, on the target audience.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:32 mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
asciilifeform: that is to say, 'casual user' cattle browsing 'the news' on their pnojes while waiting for the train.
mircea_popescu: everything works "on the target audience", especially if that's defined so as to make it seem to work. in which vein see also http://trilema.com/2016/consumerism-is-not-the-answer-though-it-will-put-you-to-sleep-or-american-history-x/#selection-91.0-111.1
asciilifeform: well judge for yourself -- usg 'demoocracy'-spreading via twatter/arsebook/etc was successfully zapped. and no, not merely via 'great wall', but it was 'part of the balanced diet' of how.
mircea_popescu: i don't perceive this.
mircea_popescu: it spread exactly as much as it spread in poland.
asciilifeform: consider the pathetic failure of the hk 'colour revolution'.
mircea_popescu: stupid naturally herds together, and to very much the same degree. there isn't anything you can do about it, and ftr the shepherd FOLLOWS the herd, doesn't lead it. he may imagine he leads it, if it makes him feel better about living in the middle of nowhere among a pile of animal dung, but whatevers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider you just said pnoje above. this settles the point.
mircea_popescu: not like they're sitting around wearing kimonos and laughing at the idiocy of dicking around with a small plastic lavalamp.
asciilifeform: i dun have a good eye inside cn. but from outside it would appear that it still belongs to the chinese, and is resistant to twitterocratization
mircea_popescu: "the chinese" you use doesn't existg.
asciilifeform: quite possibly.
mircea_popescu: does the us "belong to americans" ?
asciilifeform: it belongs to the earthworms.
mircea_popescu: who, venezuelans ?
mircea_popescu: syrian "color revolution" also fails. does syria belong to "the syrians" ?
asciilifeform: 'the americans' are no moar a civilization, to whom a continent can belong, than 'the romans' are today.
mircea_popescu: who are these syrians / chinese / whatevers things belong to.
asciilifeform: ditto 'the syrians'
mircea_popescu: and the chinese can't afford to get married because bitch wants place to spawn and place to spawn within icbm distance of anything worth one's time cost 1mn+ ie five lifetimes.
mircea_popescu: worse situation than sf. what exactly wasn't exported ?
mircea_popescu: communist china worked like communist romania, fwiw.
asciilifeform: if this is so (and i'll take mircea_popescu's intel for its word) they are on the american train to nowhere, then.
mircea_popescu: stupid is on stupid train to stupid.
mircea_popescu: this ain't about to change.
asciilifeform: speaking of 'great walls', http://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/12/01/taking-a-stand-against-unstable-risky-unofficial-ubuntu-images/
mircea_popescu: heh.
asciilifeform: and in yet-other lulz, http://qntra.net/2016/12/no-such-labs-unveils-fuckgoats/#comment-80421
mircea_popescu: did you see the guy who had a "for free just as good version" consisting of buying a software radio thing (for slightly more than what FUCKGOATS costs) and you know, listening to man made "entropy"
asciilifeform: i have that radio
mircea_popescu: if any kind of divinity existed this sort of truth-symmetrical idiocy would provoke thunderstorms.
asciilifeform: it was ultra-popular at one time, and remains useful 'poor man's sigint' tool
asciilifeform: world's cheapest 40MHz-2GHz receiver (with terrible snr, but what can you do)
mircea_popescu: aha.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/829D7AF9CA36744B0FA7458BD2E8394CC37B685C25AF7AEC8D0DB44D507482A9 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1535...4373 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.203.206.158 (ssh-rsa key from 89.203.206.158 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (static-89-203-206-158.ktkadan.cz. CZ)
mircea_popescu: i suppose getting two tuned to the same frequency and then debiasing them together may result in something (precisely because taking advantage of n in that horrible snr). otherwise with a single item... tough.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: problem is not that you cannot turn a radio-in-faraday-cage into a baroque version of FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: problem is that the thing hangs on a megatonne of open Sores shitware that is >trb-sized
asciilifeform: that nobody has read, or ever will read,
asciilifeform: nor is it quite known wtf is inside the chip
asciilifeform: a quite separate problem, and anyone who ACTUALLY owns the rtlsdr unit knows of it, is the usb
asciilifeform: thing interferes with itself quite painfully
mircea_popescu: aha. hence my comment re thunderstorms and truth-symmetrical.
asciilifeform: though i may have explained this before, long ago in the l0gz, it is NOT difficult to make a quite acceptable trng
asciilifeform: the difficulty comes when you wish to make one that remains cryptologically acceptable when it becomes a mass-produced and published product.
asciilifeform: to take example, if mircea_popescu generates keys using cuntmusculature noise, using dildonic myographs, this is bulletproof UNTIL enemy finds out and sends specially-trained pulsator gurls to long-game infiltrate harem etc.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it - maybe i should do exactly that.
mircea_popescu: get the enemy incentives correctly alligned.
asciilifeform pictures a dildonic analogue end for FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: i still wonder how come nobody, afaik, ever even once sold rng where the debiaser and analogue halves came apart.
asciilifeform: it is pretty obvious cut imho.
mircea_popescu: before the republic nobody seriously contemplated, let alone put resources towards, most sane ends and goals.
thestringpuller: in shitfone news: http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/11/1-million-android-accounts-compromised-by-android-malware-called-gooligan/
mircea_popescu: and this includes "cyberpunks" and whatever else - they still thought in terms of "the country" and bartlesian "in the end '''real''' life aka socialism prevails"
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: iirc this was in the l0gz a few days ago
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'suckless' folx , afaik, came the closest
mircea_popescu: possibru
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-smg-november-2016-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), November 2016 Statement
asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phyqYbmiWUo << in other chtonian horrors
asciilifeform: ^ dope experts! which dope was responsible ?
mircea_popescu: jenkem
mircea_popescu: wtf is with the whiny beseeching voice omfg.
asciilifeform: ikr?
asciilifeform: though it may be for theatrical effect, considering subj
mircea_popescu: "A report from BuzzFeed found that, in the final three months of the US presidential campaign, the top-performing fake election news stories on Facebook generated more engagement than the top stories from major news outlets such as the New York Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, NBC News and others." <<->> http://trilema.com/2016/the-war-with-the-press/
mircea_popescu: somehow the OBVIOUS inference isn't drawn from this.
mircea_popescu: the very evident "new york times, washington / huffington post etc do not produce strings worth more per megabyte than any other markov process" is elided in favour of "we shall label this failure of ours in terms of an external phenomenon and posture really convincingly about it". really, is it "being investigated" ? who the fuck is the agent in that agentless phrase and who the fuck's gonna supply the army.
asciilifeform: what obvious, wreckerz!11111 listening to voice of ame^H^H^Hrt on illicitly modified radios in kitchens
mircea_popescu: Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. It is a real danger to democracy."
mircea_popescu: so fucking endearing i swear.
asciilifeform: was in today's log..
mircea_popescu: o look, they "hosted a hackathon"
phf: "misinforming people"
mircea_popescu: can i just buy a hackathon keychain already ?
asciilifeform to this very day has nfi what precisely is a 'hackathon'
mircea_popescu: they're looking to farm trust. ANYTHING but the fucking obvious - stop supporting socialism already!
asciilifeform: for some reason i always picture it as one of those basque wood-chopping competitions
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i imagine what they mean by hackathon is one of those pbs donation drives. except instead of girls at phones now they have boys at keyboards.
mircea_popescu: as per "boys worth bent bottlecap per head ; girls slightly more" economic imperative.
phf: hackathon is a period of time for exclusively remote teams to get together and work on some problems that benefit from face to face, or more generally a period of uninterrupted work done by an asynchronous team. that's the original and the only meaning in the spirit of "consult the dictionary"
mircea_popescu: no, that's a gathering.
mircea_popescu: the 0day scene did these in the 80s
mircea_popescu: i'd say the release groups being the first and to date the best example of async teams solving problems that benefit from face to face.
phf: true, i was a small child then, but my first exposure to gatherings were through demoscene
phf: (in the 90s)
mircea_popescu: and since we're on it, i'd say the scene was the early republic, not derpy "cyberpunks/cypherpuns/whatever"
asciilifeform watched the 'demos', but had nfi where they came from and how they were made.
asciilifeform: quite a few marvels of asm
asciilifeform: and of mathematical wizardry.
mircea_popescu: europe, mostly.
mircea_popescu: back when /me still had a lot of faith in humanity, /me still didn't give a rat's ass about the us.
asciilifeform: iirc 'amiga' was still king in '80s europe
asciilifeform: (west europe)
mircea_popescu: nah, z80, usually as a commodore
asciilifeform: commodore (with the exception of the weirdo dual-cpu variant of the '128', and an expander cartridge for 64 ) -- never sold a z80
phf: i heard about amiga prods, but at least in moscows i didn't know anyone who had it
asciilifeform: afaik ~nobody had an amiga in sovblok
phf: i mean all the tools were ports from amiga. "nah, you don't use photoshop, here's this thing that we ported from amiga"
asciilifeform: deluxepaint!11111
mircea_popescu: ah right you are, the 64 was the mos
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 6510 (6502 variant with 6 extra programmable pins)
asciilifeform: nothing was wasted, one of the pins controlled ultra-cheap tape deck i/o, the rest - banked addr space
phf: asciilifeform: yep, grafx2 in its DOS incarnation
asciilifeform: (which is how you could USE all 64k , you could switch off the rom on the c64)
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: phf: actually i had ~standard~ deluxepaint for msdos
asciilifeform: it was ported.
phf: i might've seen that, but i don't think i saw it until after i moved to u.s.
mircea_popescu: "Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We absolutely don't do all these releases, to please the general user that rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and see's the scene releases as a source to play all these games for free." << all the way down to despising the consumer / i just want to jwz.
asciilifeform: at one point virii artists etc. also worked like this
mircea_popescu: at one point everything worth the mention worked like this ; it being the only way things can work.
mircea_popescu: the common man is here to be cut up and the meat fried, not running fucking "democracies" and making "choices" and whatnot.
asciilifeform: imho the interesting question is why it always seems to turn from one into the other
mircea_popescu: cuz kids want to get in.
asciilifeform: (from 'demo scene' to 'spamola scene')
phf: i remember taking linear algebra course in u.s. college, sort of mildly excited "finally learn this shit proper!" just to realize that my level of knowledge by then was grad research level. stopped showing up half way through, just taking tests..
phf: but i was going to say, amusingly enough the whole "cyberpunk/cypherpunk/whatever" thing came from san francisco, and that's what all the jwzs grew up with. "mondo" which later became "boing boing" (and had a blog with same name in the early 2000s) http://theendofbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/defd4d784f2e7c1978d81b99904c7869_large.jpg http://sangbleumagazine.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mondo-1.jpg
asciilifeform: lel deadtree digerati mags
phf: was sort of notorious for publishing "cyber speculative" nonsense in the style of whatshisname, rock singer
mircea_popescu: myeah. essentially california didn't start sucking now, or last year, or last decade. intellectually speaking it was always nothing. it sucked in 1990 like it sucked in 1960 and 1930.
asciilifeform: funnily enough asciilifeform never touched one, except for a very sad mid-2000s post-degringolade issue of '2600'
asciilifeform: gurl had it
phf: billy idol
phf: "floppy drives are so HOT this year"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: california may have sucked , but apparently evil martians put shockley and fairchild there as a joke upon us earthlings , to see 'what if idiot farmer wins lottery'
asciilifeform: and so we have it.
mircea_popescu: and it ran off to china.
mircea_popescu: suprise surprise, lottery windfall finds its way out
mircea_popescu: and for the record, this has been ongoing. in 1916 it was EXACTLY the same nonsense "oh, california is coming in a big way, let's move the theatrical company over".
mircea_popescu: place's been coming in a big way since the 1859 gold find put it on the map, and throughout this century and a half it never ammounted to more than high rents and jam tomorrow.
asciilifeform: so now the high rents are in pekin.
asciilifeform: (as per earlier thread)
asciilifeform: possibly 'california' is doomed to exist somewhere, even if it has legs and occasionally moves..?
mircea_popescu: about 2k for a 900sqft furnished in downtown shanghai
asciilifeform: ~= here
asciilifeform: (with possible difference that, last i heard, shanghai flat doesn't always come with breathable air)
mircea_popescu: neither does washington
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is misinformed, we get air here, but now on other hand, water...
mircea_popescu: ah!
asciilifeform: post-industial hellholes like (most of) usa have great air.
asciilifeform: *industrial
mircea_popescu: oomfg artstudio!
ben_vulpes: but the sunsets are so boring now
mircea_popescu: jesus.
mircea_popescu just ran emulated artstudio
asciilifeform occasionally STILL runs emulated 'deluxepaint'
asciilifeform: it beats the shit out of 'gimp' et al in some respects
phf uses grafx2 port as main and only graphics editor
mircea_popescu: i can't say i ever used either that much to tell, but i did fuck around with art studio a lot as a 6 yo
mircea_popescu: phf incidentally, to round the thing, let's compare the 90s compo with the 2010s hackathon. o, that's right, these lame kids come from schools with no grades! the concept of there being a winner, of choice and hierarchy is all but lost.
mircea_popescu: i see! heh.
mircea_popescu: the focus moves from achievement to "we were physically together tapping keys for a time" i nthe exact same sense iranian women hang out together in the kitchen. "participative experience".
mircea_popescu: the only possible end result of which is being fucked.
phf: "i have this idea for a project, maybe i'll complete it by the end, or maybe i won't even start, so what are you working on?"
mircea_popescu: "i got a bun in the oven, or maybe i'm just late, does ivan still drink ?"
phf: hehe
mats: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576153 yup.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 10:36 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576123 << isn't he the guy that started the whole wedding bombing trend ?
mats: at least half a dozen by my count
phf: i met this small family of germans on a vacation growing up, and they were very visceral, roughing and tumbling with each other, and when i joined in their play, it was tough, they'd punch hard and try and sink you in the pool, but they acted same way with each other and just generally enjoyed what was happening. in fact i'm pretty sure they took it easy on me. i remembering thinking that they were like wolf cubs (they were from Dresden
phf: so Berlin boys at the same hotel would rag on them, but from remote, because thems berlins boys were much more into talking)
phf: people i knew back home were much more into verbal sparring, but following the same principles, you enter into dialog take a lot of abuse hope to come out on top, but at the end everyone's friends
asciilifeform: i thought that all children played like this...
phf: when i came to u.s. my biggest surprise was that locals are into neither. you try and rough them up they think you some kind of crazy person, you try and get them into a debate they get all scared and confused.
phf: asciilifeform: well, not unless both forms of behavior are "developmental issues"
trinque: US is not a homogenous ball of gray goo
trinque: sounds perfectly southern to me
phf: trinque: yes yes that's why i prefer going sporting with rednecks and southerners, they don't cry about things
asciilifeform: aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
trinque prefers rednecks as well
asciilifeform mostly prefers distance, garden, solitude.
trinque: Tacoma Washington suddenly sprung to mind
phf: or olympia
trinque: in the mountains up there'd be great for hermitage
asciilifeform: on dirigible - yet moar. and on mars - more still.
mats has a great travel poster of olympus mons
mats: https://www.flickr.com/photos/spacex/17504334828
mats: spacex got the idea from this set: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/visions-of-the-future
asciilifeform: 'spacex' is every bit as usg as nasa, but is part of the 2000s 'lean usg', if you will, concept; sorta like thiel's palantir is 'lean nsa'
mats: i'd have asked that canadian fella to print all the spacex and nasa sets on canvas but he had to go and be retarded, so...
asciilifeform: they are in the gorbachev 'kooperativ' phase
asciilifeform: where 'we will do same retarded Empire thing but CHEAPER, EFFICIENT' because 'private'
trinque: mats: that series of posters was pretty damn good
mats: i have half a dozen of them hanging and another ten or eleven in a crate
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561465 << also re spacex☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-01 21:29 asciilifeform: trinque: consider: a 'saturn' and the maersk cargo fleet cost similarly. but they are unlike: 'saturn' is a cult/religious object (in the sense where nobody seriously attempts to calculate its roi) , rather more like the great pyramids.
mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
phf: apropos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHtoild-Q4
mats: i mean specifically the folks ~in space~ rather than those on earth, aspiring to be there. no longer taking free air, water, food for granted, cooperating to survive in vacuum or organizing as a society to terraform $planet
phf: according neil stephenson in such a situation only womens will survive
mats: in what novel
phf: seveneves
phf: also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-29#1441666☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-03-29 17:58 asciilifeform: phf: seveneves was a misery
ben_vulpes: mats: also entirely unprecedented
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:56 mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-28#1574049 << worth bringing this in too, in considering WoT as more widely-used infrastructure☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-28 18:37 asciilifeform: wot rating is the one scenario that most screamingly calls for attributable proclamation.
trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
trinque: especially as relates to the payments system
trinque: in regards to WoT, it allows me to at any time rebuild the graph with certainty
mats: ben_vulpes: certainly.
mats: i grew up violently scolded whenever i'd leave meat on bones, grains of rice behind on the plate, and i've carried this discipline through to adulthood
trinque: how does scarcity evaluate to cooperation and unity in your mind?
mats: simultaneously growing up in america among the wastage and vast consumption culture, the whole thing is ugly to its core
trinque would not hate life as a space pirate
mats: in vaccuum - every grain is consumed, every ml of urine recovered
trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Lm39N?raw=true << attributable and ordered rating
phf: what's the 441599?
trinque: block height
phf: ah
trinque: could just as well have been "1"
trinque: but I like the stardate being present
trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
trinque: under the present scheme I could do the same, but have to trust the wire to be honest, or find a better wire, which proceeds towards dragging gossipd in as a dependency
danielpbarron: this is counter the the gossipd model of "i heard so-and-so said whatever"
trinque: I understood it to be able to do both attributable and non-attributable statements
trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
danielpbarron: so then dump your copy of it and sign it periodically
trinque: that is in no way equivalent
trinque: in one case, both parties can verify a rating using the rating material itself.
trinque: in the other, we must trust my server is perfect, our logs are perfect, and so on
danielpbarron: i don't see the benefit in signing the rating string; if it gets mitm'd it won't match on the bot's end and the user will clearly see something is amiss
asciilifeform: ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
danielpbarron: there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
asciilifeform: as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
trinque: danielpbarron: how do you justify signing anything by this logic ?
asciilifeform: ^
trinque: verifying his signature *is asking him*
danielpbarron: trinque, so that two parties can know they have the same text
asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
danielpbarron: no, verifying the sig is asking who he once was
asciilifeform: ergo -- sign the fucking rating.
danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: guess what, if you had flown to alpha centauri before mtgox died... etc
asciilifeform: there is not a cure for this, other than to stay 'in the light cone'
trinque: danielpbarron: I recently signed my IPs for various servers
trinque: if I go change them, yes, signed material does not update
trinque: which does not invalidate that at the time of signature they were precisely the statement I made
trinque: your observation is misapplied; the signature does not say "for all time"
asciilifeform: a signature simply states that 'at time t, the following...'
trinque: it says "this was precisely the state of this text at time"
trinque: aha
asciilifeform: or, more rigorously, 'at time >= t'
asciilifeform: because the only reasonably rigid 'nail' to nail it down with is blockhash
trinque: and lets not soften the definitions of things because "o no too hard"
danielpbarron: that's what sigs are for, one-off "maje sure you get this text unmolested" ; ~not~ here is a public record of official signed things
trinque: you'll have to define your terms if you want to proceed
trinque: wtf does "official signed things" mean here
danielpbarron: like your WoT ratings
trinque: how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma
trinque: or for that matter verify anything I got from assbot or prior
danielpbarron: compare it with a signed backup you made?
danielpbarron: after somebody complains that it's showing the wrong thing
asciilifeform: danielpbarron's argument, if i understand it, is that folx are doomed to have to ask, e.g., mircea_popescu directly, for mircea_popescu's ratings, because otherwise enemy can win against, e.g., danielpbarron, by locking him inside a bottle where mircea_popescu's ancient and long-revoked rating of magicaltux still stands because signed ??
trinque: this bottle is also somehow distinct from the bottle where deedbot is currently lying to him
danielpbarron: yes that's part of it
asciilifeform: trinque: that is the weak point, precisely
asciilifeform: he is already in this bottle
asciilifeform: and the more unsigned payload one relies upon, the more so you live in the bottle.
asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
danielpbarron: the ratings are a guide. the WoT is people. do you think this whole chat has been mitm'd for the last howevermany years and nobody noticed?
asciilifeform: the wot is made of what? not of ratings ?
trinque: lets walk it the other direction
danielpbarron: the rating guides you to the person who you may they request signed materian
trinque: danielpbarron: what if I just allow whoever currently is set as "nick" to rate as "nick"
trinque: if not why not
phf: what i got from the argument last time is that wot ratings don't need that sort of meticulous bureaucratic audit trail. my personal inclination is to of course specify and sign and process (plus it would be cool to have own fork of wot maintained by own means), but i'm not sure i disagree with the first point
trinque: "don't need" is the sort of squishy lazy compromise that'd better have a reason
trinque: or else get off ass and do better
mats: FUCKGOATS is impressive, thanks asciilifeform
trinque: this fucking "don't need" argument is why people md5, https, whatever
mats prepares order
trinque: I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn't just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings
danielpbarron: trinque, not; at least in current model only the bot is the iffy part. my decryption of the string proves tothe bot that i am me
trinque: after all good enough
trinque: I am aware of how the bot works; answer my actual question
phf: trinque: we trust you, it's in the wot. and if you break the wot we'll rate you negatively using the wot :)
trinque: so we've found the "sweet spot" where we have removed enough untrustworthy components and might as well settle down and have kids / get fat here?
trinque: phf: yeah I'm not taking responsibility for the next exploit in all this garbage tyvm
asciilifeform: trinque: ratings are one of the very few things for which the case for signature is screamingly clear
trinque: I'd have thought so.
asciilifeform: yes, enemy can lock you in a cave and show you old ratings until you die of old age
trinque: perhaps danielpbarron thinks we should prune our blockchains of all blocks without unspent outputs too
trinque: because we all know the system has always worked
asciilifeform: and if you are dumb enough not to notice that you are in the cave, and relied on unsigned ratings, he can now also show you wholly-fictitious ones.
phf: trinque: why not? my responsibility, the log, failed as a combination of things inside of my control and outside of my control. i apologized and tried better next time. it's not a bad system.
trinque: phf: we agree there.
trinque: what I mean is, you were not impaled.
trinque: :p
trinque: so then why is danielpbarron getting in the way of me trying "better next time"
trinque: in advance, rather than once upon a fuckup
mats: eagerness
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's original 'gossiptronic' argument -- and i suppose he can elaborate when he wakes up -- was that a signature is a kind of autonomous and indestructible truth-telling robot, that can be of use to the enemy if one is not careful about when you create it and out of what
phf: he's arguing a position against yours. he's not getting in your way. perhaps he's trying to say that he's not particularly eager to have dozens of his own signatures floating around with some opaque digital data in there directed at machine?
danielpbarron: ^
asciilifeform: a signed rating is a correct use of the robot. in fact vtronics consists entirely of this type of thing
trinque: I didn't hear a position other than "not needed"
trinque: that isn't a statement with content
asciilifeform: when i sign phf's patch, i have 'posrated' the patch.
trinque: aha
danielpbarron: my argument isn't "not needed" ; it's that it's dangerous
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: please paint a picture for us, of the danger
asciilifeform: a gedankenexperiment.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576544☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:55 danielpbarron: that's what sigs are for, one-off "maje sure you get this text unmolested" ; ~not~ here is a public record of official signed things
asciilifeform: one reason why signatures are a uniquely useful things is that they can outlive creator.
phf: ratings are meaningless though without the creator
asciilifeform: here's where apparently i disagree.
danielpbarron: i don't see how that's useful in the WoT
asciilifeform: they are of no use without creator's pubkey, yes.
trinque: the fact is preserved that he who had this key said X
asciilifeform: with signatures a 'donation of constantine' scenario falls immediately out.
phf: asciilifeform: no no that's sort of like the "what's the wot" article. the "number is meaningless without asking the creator" part
trinque: if you put something in the signed material that gives when, that, also
asciilifeform: phf: forget the number. there are only 3 numbers that matter, -1,0,1.
trinque: k conflated here is "this was said" vs "what it means"
asciilifeform: and these --- matter.
trinque: I am only interested in the hardening of the former
asciilifeform: granted i can easily see how danielpbarron might have come upon his position, given as he practices a religion based on stuffing words into the mouth of long-dead fella
danielpbarron: i think it's even dangerous to use sigs to preserve things in stone like that. shouldn't be more than a tool to ensure we're talking about the same text. tge signed material doesn't enforce itself. otherwise we're off into smart contract territory
asciilifeform: without these 'stones', there is no one who is talking.
asciilifeform: only idiots sitting in caves and each watching unique apocryphal usg film of his own.
phf: this is a very beurocratic position
asciilifeform bbl, the lattices are here!!
phf: you're redefining the meaning of wot "for sekuriti!!1"
trinque: "meh, data integrity is your job :^)" << >> "alright, I want fucking signed material then"
trinque: this is emphatically "I just want to" use it the way it is
phf: you don't want to even hear the opposing side so resort to constructing strawmen
trinque: what did I not hear, exactly?
danielpbarron: signed ratings, to me, seems like it mostly benifits random newcomer/evesdropper with little to no benefit for actual users
trinque: phf: how the fuck do I parse a statement like that ^
trinque: where does it fit in the model of the discussion so far ?
trinque: it's just another ad hoc "I feel X"
phf: trinque: i ~understood~ what he said, and it's an additional point unrelated to his previous argumnt
mats: strong words here, lets be pals
trinque: who's negrating anyone ?
danielpbarron: i've been reading the log for years. i'd very much like to see someone hack the bot and change ratings. let enemy make a fool of himself
trinque: "he can fuck my wife; his dick's small anyway"
trinque: lel
jurov: lol actually it was not hacked. just forked.
jurov: and good luck for someone comingoutside to determine from ratings wtf happened with bitbet
jurov: *from outside
jurov: was that the argiument?
danielpbarron: the fork happened in the channel. we all read about it. whereas a hack would have no context to back the rating up
phf: the architecture ~right now~ is as secure as your setup. there's no way to mitm wot ratings. if there's an error in wot, there's not even a point to start a stink. you go and fix the rating if you changed it drunk, or you let trinque know that there's some serious issue. we unroll last week's signed wot and proceed from there
phf: the proposed alternative provides a verifiable audit trail of all the ratings made by everyone, without necessary solving mitm problems
danielpbarron: it was my understanding that we specifically don't want such an audit trail
phf: that was the conclusion of the thread last time we had this conversation, yes
trinque: speak instead of what you want, eh?
danielpbarron: i agree with that conclusion
trinque: great, but I'm discussing providing something as a service as a matter of business.
trinque: I'm not going to provide Eulora infrastructure with a standard of "if something fucks up, eh, we'll go back and fix it later"
phf: i missed the part where wot was going to be integrated into eulora? i know that deedbot was mentioned
danielpbarron: the eulora rsa isn't the same as WoT is it?
danielpbarron: i mean i'm not gonna put my key on a networked machine
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576492 << twas the very beginning of the discussin.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.
trinque: *ioin
trinque: eh fuck, lag
danielpbarron: so i assumed people would still have to resister their actual key with the bot prior to getting their eulora account
trinque: says rates and deeds in-game there
danielpbarron: ok. so then let eulora dump and sign its ratings periodically. i don't see why you shouldn't trust it to give you the correct data
trinque: you are arguing *from* a conclusion rather than towards one
trinque: so give me your perspective from the other direction.
phf: trinque: he doesn't want an audit trail of ratings.
trinque: why!!!
trinque: that is a purpose. "so that I do not have an audit trail"
trinque: and I already know, "because then people can grab an item from the trail and say that's HEAD"
danielpbarron: i agree the ratings should be signed when sent over wire (to preserve the text) but there is no reason the sigs need to be around each individual rating
trinque: imagine I'm a bot saying why after every danielpbarron
trinque: because it is upon me to keep the integrity of the db?
trinque: if so, I say fine, I choose the tool called cryptography to do so
danielpbarron: trinque, also because fuck anyone who wants my ratings. anyone who has business in seeing them already has means to
phf: trinque: because ratings doesn't have meaning at all outside of rater
phf: *don't
phf: ~i~ see it as an equivalent of signing and stamping every page of notebook "for integrity"
phf: *of my notebook
trinque: it is not your notebook; I am holding it
trinque: why is my claim "this is page x of phf's notebook" good enough here, but my claim "phf paid me 1000 BTC" is not good enough ?
phf: it's a metaphor, you can find all kinds of ways to invalidate it, i was hoping it might clarify understanding
trinque: sure, I'm just sparring back!
trinque: works pretty well I hear
phf: yes, but i understand you, and you don't understand me, there's really no point in sparing until there's a mutual disagreement over shared understanding. this is like sparring 101
asciilifeform: not one of you is taking seriously the 'how to leave a good looking and proper corpse' problem, are you.
asciilifeform: reminds me of tale from albert speer's book about ruins
asciilifeform: during dinner with hitler et al, speer (among other things, reichsminister of architecture) made a comment about 'one problem, our concrete houses will leave very poor ruins'
asciilifeform: table fell silent, because omfg defeatism wtf
phf: asciilifeform: i understood your take and i think that wot is a poor defense against "good looking corpse" problem
asciilifeform: but fuhrer wisely replied, 'it is true, we must think about how to leave good ruins, no one lives forever.'
asciilifeform: supposedly.
asciilifeform wasn't there.
asciilifeform: phf: if pubkey is preserved, and privkey of dead man -- well-destroyed, suddenly the 'donation of constantine' problem evaporates.
trinque: phf: I understood, and it would make more sense then to have a way of querying phf for his notebook
asciilifeform: i would like to hear some kind of logical counter to this statement. and still have not.
trinque: there's all this theatrical "I rated X in public" and it's written with finger in sand
phf: i think it's entirely petty and pointless to use wot as a weaponized shunning
asciilifeform: weaponized shunning is the only effective weapon.
asciilifeform: all of asciilifeform's tech, v, yet-unreleased items, resolve ultimately to it.
asciilifeform: it is how we build a universe with semi-permeable walls, vermin on one side, people - on other.
trinque: certainly uncovers a source of disagreement.
trinque also in favor of cryptographic mark of cain
asciilifeform: danielpbarron , i think, also believes in mechanized shunning, but takes it further yet, and would like to deny enemy access to ratings also
asciilifeform: but it is not clear to me that this wins more than it costs.
phf: a magic talisman against badmen
asciilifeform: keep in mind, in a fully gossiptronic wot as pictured by danielpbarron , your knowledge of anything outside of your l1 is ~0.
asciilifeform: 100% apocrypha.
asciilifeform: phf: talismans are problematic not only when they do not work, but especially when they ~do~. e.g., washing hands -- worx
asciilifeform: and then there are the compulsives who wash 50x day, etc.
asciilifeform: penicillin at one point was also 'talisman that worked'
asciilifeform: not many more dangerous power tools than a... working talisman.
trinque: this was the problem mod6 had with signing the dependency turds thrown into deedbot
asciilifeform: folx will throw any thought of indirect costs out of their heads, when 'talisman worx!1111'
trinque: ended up with disclaimer at top saying "I do not love these; I merely state that they exist"
trinque: I see this as the meaning of a rating already. "This exists"
asciilifeform: trinque: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545 << oblig
trinque: if I say "I love my wife" in it, then I do; signing "wife exists" doesn't mean I love her
trinque: asciilifeform: aha, wherever this data exists it is not implied by a sig
asciilifeform: (absolutely mandatory reading for this thread imho, and it is unfortunate that the piece was lost in the cacophony of the bbet disaster)
trinque: *the mere presence of
trinque: signing is the cryptographic act of observation
asciilifeform: a sig is a tool of the dead as well as of the living.
phf: well, what's the thinking here? that after your death all negrated entities are "possible suspects"?
phf: traditionally this is solved with "obama dun did it, i hear him knocking on the door"
trinque: if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected.
trinque: that fact is useful after he is gone.
phf: well, if that's a common understanding, then i don't understand mp's what is wot article
asciilifeform: phf: the thinking is that nobody should be able to create an asciilifeform-signed vpatch after he is dead. omfg, this is hard concept?!
phf: asciilifeform: when did vpatch come in? what the fuck
asciilifeform: it is an instance of same material.
asciilifeform: a rating.
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/software-maintenance-costs-and-depreciation-schedules << CH - Software Maintenance Costs and Depreciation Schedules
asciilifeform: just of a piece of text vs. another d00d's pubkey.
trinque: before another bout of triggering happens, I think this well defines the debate
phf: ~ratings are meaningless outside of rater~ this is our fundamental disagreement
trinque: are ratings ephemeral indications to consult the author or are they permanent marks
phf: right
asciilifeform: phf: i think we may have more fundamental disagreement:
asciilifeform: what constitutes 'the rater'
asciilifeform: is it necessarily a living, breathing man ?
asciilifeform: we have already established that it is possible to live and to cease to live as rater ( a d00d in prison, or gabriel_laddel, or, or)
asciilifeform: or the d00dz whose keys i phuctored
trinque: it is also not necessary to say that because ratings exist in the past I must care about them as much as those more recent
trinque: what was said being distinct from how I evaluate it
asciilifeform: i, and this is i suppose no secret to anyone , am a 'past-oriented' fella.
phf: asciilifeform: well, but what's the "more fundamental disagreement" stated?
asciilifeform: phf: in my cosmography, a 'rater' is a pubkey
asciilifeform: not a man.
asciilifeform: it is, for instance, conceivable , from the pov of you folx, that asciilifeform is a bourbaki.
asciilifeform: make 0 diff .
asciilifeform: *makes
phf: i don't know if we disagree there, but i don't see how that makes a difference
phf: if i were to give a pubkey to a111 and it starts rating people based on how many btcbase references they make a day (there's a quota!)
phf: i'm not going to go asking a111 what he meant by it, and i would laugh to anyone who'd try
asciilifeform: this example is only an example in so far as it would be a pretty pointless mechanism
asciilifeform: but picture , for instance, if phuctor bot rated keys that were phuctored, in the moment of.
asciilifeform: (leaving aside that there is no effective means for securing a private key at a datacentre box )
trinque: useful, and for all time
phf: but what am i going to do with that knowledge? i'd still have to ask somebody (presumably you) to both proove overwnship of phuctor bot and to explain to me what those ratings mean. or else you have a document that you prepared that explains the logic, etc.
asciilifeform: yes, it is ~impossible to make a robot-who-rates , with tech as i currently understand it. does not change the fact that perma-ratings are a fundamentally stronger building material than 'go and ask him and see if he feels like telling you the truth'
trinque: asciilifeform: release gossipd already so I can write a DHT for it !1!!1 solves WoT, solves "DNS", solves ...
trinque: :D
asciilifeform: phf: you would simply need to HAVE ASKED me 20 years ago for pubkey.
asciilifeform: or maybe i graffiti'd it on the moon. or in corpses in group photo in afghan. wherever.
asciilifeform: it is not so hard to preserve a few kBit permanently.
phf: asciilifeform: ok, my point was that i don't see how that's a more fundamental than "no rating outside of rater"
asciilifeform: the way i read danielpbarron's thought, was that he sees 'rater' as necessarily a living entity ready to carry on conversation.
asciilifeform: whereas i - as simply a pubkey.
asciilifeform: that might belong to a long-dead great grandfather.
phf: oh so you were saying fundamental disagreement between you and danielpbarron rather than me
phf: well, dpb dropped out of this conversation, and i apparently have isolated understanding of wot.
trinque: at least now we're in a position to discuss the cost/benefit of a forgetful WoT.
trinque: if it is better to forget, lets make that explicit. when/why, and not just as an artifact of being built on shoddy computing infrastructure.
phf: for me wot is a partial externalization of a hawala network and as far as -1,0,1 is concerned ~perhaps~ indicates prevalent opinions among the people whose opinion i value, but by convention only. in this sense the wot follows the lords and not the other way around. it has some practical use like serving as a door bouncer and ostensibly letting newbs know who to talk to.
trinque: it becomes hard to distinguish from the gossipd-graph, eh?
trinque: I could see an argument that the WoT evolves into the gossipd graph.
trinque: and then yes, can't talk to a deadman in either case.
trinque: whereas I see them as distinct; wot is the history of my past and present gossipd connections, and indications of what I thought of them
phf: neither current wot nor gossipd spec wot have the history component, because if you go by "there's no rating outside of rater" past ratings make absolutely no difference.
trinque: I meant "I used to be peered with / do business with / talk to X, but may no longer"
trinque: it is my history with the person eval'd to what I deem the present state
phf: well, speaking of history audit trail does introduce explicit history where there wasn't any
trinque: it does.
trinque: something else comes to mind; there exists in our logs a person named trinque who is not the present trinque
trinque: we keep the logs, presumably forever
trinque: why?
trinque: if ratings are ephemeral, seems logs must also be. relevant here that we tend to rate in the logs.
mircea_popescu waves. i shall write this short i woke up with and read all this!
trinque enjoyed
trinque: back in a bit
mircea_popescu: aaand we find teh english has no equivalent of ojina/užina wtf is this bs.
mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
diana_coman: isn't that tea?
diana_coman: scones and butter and what-not
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: must be
danielpbarron: re preserving log: we don't sign each line we send. but feel free to sign the whole thing
danielpbarron: !~bible matthew 8:22
jhvh1: danielpbarron: [KJV] Matthew 8:22 :: But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
asciilifeform: http://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2016/11/trump-supporter-15-beaten-during-rockville-protest/slide/1/ << in other lelz
asciilifeform actually went to this school. or rather, diff one by same name that used to stand in the empty lot next to that one.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576455 << running the "oh, that wasn't a wedding, who goes out in the desert to have weddings (outside of weirdo californians) and there was no leftover food or musical instruments or anything)" side by side with the AP footage showing all the lively colored bedding and pots and pans and various bits of goatfucker musical instruments is quite the COIN exercise.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:39 mats: at least half a dozen by my count
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576789 << holy fuck your ужин is b/w lunch & dinner ?! like english tea??☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
asciilifeform: ours is before bed !
mircea_popescu: you go to bed with the chickens ?
mircea_popescu: civilised people have artificial light, stay up longer.
asciilifeform: i have nfi when chicken goes to bed
asciilifeform: i think american chickens get lamps
mircea_popescu: with the light. you can put a chick to sleep right now by covering its head. the brain is eye-powered like in frogs.
asciilifeform: anyway no, you don't go straight to bed after it, but it happens 1-3h prior
mircea_popescu: so what's between lunch and dinner ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576459 << i certainly did as a kid.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:48 asciilifeform: i thought that all children played like this...
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/esteemed-james-l-caldwell/ << Trilema - Esteemed James L. Caldwell...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576465 << i dunno what prisons you've been in, but nobody can be arsed to do the whole bickering bs as far as i saw.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:50 asciilifeform: aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
mircea_popescu: not that it's bad for kids, though it does promote some tilt towards the tomboyish look in girls that i don't find welcome.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576477 << if only. gorby has smarter people.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:03 asciilifeform: they are in the gorbachev 'kooperativ' phase
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576483 << i dun think it's particularly naive.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:13 mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:16 phf: according neil stephenson in such a situation only womens will survive
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576491 << it is very much precedented, by the age of sail. EXACTLY the same "men, on a boat, cooperating, not taking the ale and ribracks for granted" etc.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 ben_vulpes: mats: also entirely unprecedented
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576496 << this is a bad idea, for multiple reasons. one of them being that it requires to give sign capacity to the clients, which is deeply undesirable ; another being that it encourages a retarded notion/expectation of repudiability.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:24 trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576504 << to add... flavour to this, /me will on occasion go to pee, find girl taking bath, pee on girl rather than in the usual place. not only is it ecological and great for the hair, but it's a lot easier to aim.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:30 mats: in vaccuum - every grain is consumed, every ml of urine recovered
ben_vulpes: boats, huh. /me smacks self
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576511 << yes but it would require client to know all sorts of things client doesn't want to know about.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:39 trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
mircea_popescu: why so violent ben_vulpes !
ben_vulpes: a lifetime of communist-repressed masculinity leaking out i suppose
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576517 << they're not equivalent but imo his is the better solution. though i'm not even sure what the problem is.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:44 trinque: that is in no way equivalent
ben_vulpes: ("fewer than eight cylinders? communist. more than eight cylinders? communist." tm r those car guys)
mircea_popescu awaits teh man to return.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576521 << they are ?! why ? i have no intention for my rating of X to be opposable to me. it is information i provide free of charge and on an as-is basis, literally saying "if you're trying to eval X i may be able to help". it would be the height of impudence for y to demand something on the basis of "i have this here signed thing".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
asciilifeform: what can i say, whoever wants to turn his ratings into promisetronium -- can.
mircea_popescu: this theoretical problem is evinced in practice by the expiration problem - what do you do about all the ratings i may have signed ? so you have rating for x at time t, what's this say ? is it correct or isn't it correct ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing prevents me from putting in ratings as deeds ; nor anyone else. yet few do.
asciilifeform: because gymnastics.
mircea_popescu: the old distinction between fact and fiction prevails. ratings are not facts.
ben_vulpes: oh come now you had the keys out when decrypting deedbot's pad
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes but the item does not sign anything.
ben_vulpes: the keys are out already, spend five seconds to write a thing if it matters to you.
mircea_popescu: yes i had the keys out. but to pee not to make johnny little brothers.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: for all you know, i can decrypt by sending via diode into the nuke vault, but to SIGN i gotta take the rocket out to access the modulus.
ben_vulpes: if 'gymnastics', then does it really matter?
ben_vulpes: a right.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576515 << it is not a good thing in any sense. think for a moment : if the ratings are live, which is to say, they actually do stand up to their purpose of "if you try to eval x ask these people", then those people will re-advertise. if they do not, then they should have been deleted in the first place.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:42 trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely no valuable information that would be lost if you fucked up the db today and we had to re-do it. just inconvenience to a lot of live people, but it's of the nature of "tee hee i garbled everyone's shopping lists as found on the fridge" not of the "tee hee i burned all extant aramaic manuscripts".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576522 << aha, very much this. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576523 << no, really, it's actually design so you verify it by asking the rater. if anyone ever goes "wtf" we know we have a problem.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 danielpbarron: there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
trinque: I address my counterposition to this in thread.
trinque: the hardware is all shit, and lies
trinque: so then it tends towards why warehouse this at all
trinque: if we are not warehousing cryptographic facts
trinque: I am for example not willing to do the wallet if fucking up the db is possible.
mircea_popescu: because we've decided to live in the world as it is rather than wait for someone else (who ?) to make a better one
mircea_popescu: trinque what do you mean by fucking up the db in that context as something else was being contemplated when i said it ?
trinque: in the case of both WoT and wallet, from an engineers perspective I have a database which changes state when outside parties tell it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576524 << you sign facts ; opinions are not facts ; what is a "cryptographic fact" in your usage above ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 trinque: danielpbarron: how do you justify signing anything by this logic ?
mircea_popescu: aha.
trinque: it is a fact that I have spoken this opinion at this time
mircea_popescu: a rating you mean ? but a rating isn't an opinion, it's an advertisement. much like an offer in a magazine is a tender not a deal.
trinque: the bare state of the data is the fact meant
trinque: not the encoded meaning
mircea_popescu: but the bare state of data isn't a fact ;/
trinque: please explain?
trinque: I have here a machine with levers on it which can be pulled via proven control of a given key
trinque: except that it has also secret levers which can be pulled over the network card with a magic packet and all other sorts of nonsense
trinque: only defense against this I can see is warehousing what was said and being able to verify that it was said out of band
asciilifeform: i'm with trinque re 'a signed opinion is a fact.' if i take 1TB from my rng and sign it, that is a perma-fossilized piece of my volition.
asciilifeform: even if no one knows wtf i thought i was doing .
trinque: i.e. I immediately spray all signed material to a box whose only function is to back up the pile of signed incoming statements, and over a serial diode.
trinque: in the case of the wallet, I have something I can verify before and every time I move coin
trinque: this model is also applicable using OTP, I'm aware, but while it proves something to *me*, it doesn't prove it to anyone else.
trinque: hm. you know what. if I stockpile encrypted OTP material which is also encrypted to my own key, I suppose it does the same.
trinque: provided other people see me send this encrypted OTP to another
trinque takes it back. seems to require access to my private key for anyone else to believe it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a pile of rng bits IS a fact.
asciilifeform: and so is a rategram.
mircea_popescu: trinque so basically, to understand this, the problem you are working against is this situation where you are tricked into making false payments by a secret owner of your hardware ?
trinque: exactly.
trinque: narrowing the hole for that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. and this confusion between fact and fiction driven by the engineering perspective that "oh it is a fact TO ME" eventually ends up with usg and the "fact" of "fake media"
mircea_popescu: trinque is this different from "you were tricked into making false payments by secret owner of all rsa keys" ?
asciilifeform: sooo pray tell why the transformator that can turn rng bits into fact, breaks its teeth against a rategram.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing transforms the rng bits into fact. they were fact, from the beginning, owing to the absence of meaning.
mircea_popescu: but the rategram is not a fact, it's just meaning.
trinque: mircea_popescu: there are many enemies with many means of attack
mircea_popescu: trinque i believe the correct pill to this would be to keep the moving sums small, rather than fucking the mechanism.
trinque: is not the binary number which represents a rating a fact, which encodes a meaning?
mircea_popescu: ie, when dealing with unquantifiable unknown risks, methodological approaches are costs with no benefit./
mircea_popescu: trinque facts don't encode anything. that's what it's like to be a fact - you may only be interpreted, but exist outside and above any meaning.
asciilifeform: and my rating ' mircea_popescu : +9999: best buddy, died in vietnam but not forgotten , my only trustworthy supplier of mersenne primes, there shall be no more but those he signed for me ' is equally 'fact' and certifiable as any rng bit
mats: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-to-forgive-at-least-108-billion-in-student-debt-in-coming-years-1480501802 << holy shit, where is usg going to find 100bn
asciilifeform: mats: from the nonexistent 'retirements' the owed money was to supposedly pay for.
mircea_popescu: mats bannon got 1trn, they'll manage.
asciilifeform: mats: and every other obligation usg will gleefully default on, like fdr on his gold bonds
mats: mircea_popescu: talking about killing medicare?
mircea_popescu: no whatever infrastructure development fund, i have nfi, the whole thing's vague as fake hair.
mats: well, cutting off its legs
mats: asciilifeform: i wonder how many people actually thought entitlements like SS, Medicare, would live forever...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576528 << they have to. there is no "one" answer. suppose the case where i rate someone X as a 3 because i dunno, we go fishing. suppose A asks me about X because he's contemplating going hunting, and B asks me about X because he's contemplating playing chess.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:50 asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
asciilifeform: mats: i dunno that many folx walk around with notions of 'thousand year reich' directly present in their heads. but 'will last long enough for ME' is probably common delusion.
mircea_popescu: to A i shall say "and he doesn't snore" and to B i shall say "he's a patient sort"
mircea_popescu: this notion that ratings encode some sort of single unified pointed scalar truth has got to die already. it's not only very stupid, it's actually in the way.
asciilifeform: i am beginning to suspect that different folx want different and possibly incompatible things from the concept of wot.
trinque thought no such thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform illustrate ?
mircea_popescu: trinque i don't think you did, but we ended up with a whole front here and since we're discussing it let's discuss altogether.
trinque: certainly
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and note that the only fact in your list of facts is my dying. which imparts some fact-flavour to the rest of the string.
trinque: but asciilifeform yes, along the ephemeral/gossip vs mark-of-cain fault line?
asciilifeform: i'ma let trinque illustrate, since my current understanding is that he sees the pov, and it is easier to have socratic thread with 2 rather than 3
mircea_popescu: hmmkay.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576531 << this is a major problem, folks can then create alt-chans in which alt-wots live AND YOU CAN VERIFY - ITS SIGNED!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:52 danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
trinque: signed does not mean true in my view.
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to give the wolf a falx on top of everything.
mircea_popescu: trinque what does it mean then ?
trinque: it only means "this statement was made"
trinque: by the holder of the pen^H^H^Hkey
trinque: maybe you signed contract A at one point, then signed B which brought about termination of A, and I don't have B
mircea_popescu: there have to be layers. my hitting return is "this statement was made" ; my signing should be "this statement was made with a view of it being opposable to the maker".
asciilifeform: my basic problem with unsigned-ratings is that enemy can fabricate a fictional me from WHOLE CLOTH rather than being stuck with selected pieces of what i actually did.
trinque: doesn't mean A is still in effect
asciilifeform: (as in the 'old ratings shown to man trapped in cave' scene.)
trinque: that I hold signed material does not say something about the state of the world
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform enemy already does this ; so does your gf. everyone you come into contact with is fabricating a fictional you from the whole cloth of their head.
trinque: only about the existence of that material in the eyes of the signer
mircea_popescu: which is how there exist these washpo that is a reputable source, qntra that is a spamsite etc.
asciilifeform: with pubkey crypto it is possible to make a rigorous reality with tall buildings in it, with steel frames, instead of this ubiquitous liquishit.
mircea_popescu: trinque the problem here is like so : if you don't sign the stuff, you have a river, which will have to be forded. people wanting to get across know what they're doing - fording a river.
mircea_popescu: if you construct the signing infrastructure, there's a river with a railway bridge. however, segments may be missing ; and this can't be known.
mircea_popescu: people approaching this other river will drown.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576548 << you don't ; nor is it your business to. this is simply not a service you offer.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:56 trinque: how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma
mircea_popescu: all i want to know from you if such a situation is discovered is if you did it or not.
mircea_popescu: and there's a damned good reason you don't, nor is it a service you offer : the difficulty of "looking at the data, establish its validity" exceeds building the ai.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what means 'with a view of it being opposable to the maker' ?
mircea_popescu: well see part of the problem is merchant law. so : there's two kinds of writs, one of which can be opposed to the author, which is to say if he later makes a claim, anyone with standing (like the guy he's making the claim against) can oppose the writ.
mats: asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4mzjk/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: "you owe me 5 guilders" "this writ says i don't". "i never meant for my daughter to be chained to the post naked for all comers" "then why does this offer her ?" etc.
trinque: I can see that I'm opposing massive precedent behind what signing means.
trinque: it's a fair point
mircea_popescu: it's not just precedent, either. it has its own sort of contorted but domain-appropriate logic.
asciilifeform: oh ty mats
asciilifeform: mats: where'dya get thhis
asciilifeform: oh nm, found, in the end.
mircea_popescu: anyway. merchant law, which incidentally i advise all curious minds to review, not only long predates civil law or the british mandaciousa attempts to enact a systematized "common law" as older than it was - but actually informed all legal work of the states. they basically stole the merchant's code much like the french stole the templar's wealth.
mircea_popescu: not that there's anything wrong with stealing from the wise.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what'd be a use case for 'non-opposable writ' ?
mircea_popescu: this line.
asciilifeform: other than napkin drawing in restaurant.
asciilifeform: or that time when ben_vulpes explained to mats how trinque killed and shinohai ate kennedy.
mircea_popescu: and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents"
trinque: this I can see, much better than earlier protests that "it's not necessary", meaning no ill towards danielpbarron
asciilifeform: but how would that even make sense
mircea_popescu: in fact, you can not at any point raise any objection to any of my ratings. they're whatever they are and you're more than welcome to go hang, there's no "detrimental reliance" on them for you.
trinque: it would be flooding the world with things you have to one by one argue against in court, more or less
mircea_popescu: and in the process making a serious court impossible.
trinque sees entirely
mircea_popescu: there's two reasons one does not wish to be cavallier with signed matter. one is purely technological, as discussed briefly above, but the more important one is ecology of the republic of the mind. you wish to make THE STRICT MINIMUM of signed statements you can get by with AND NOT A SINGLE MORE.
mircea_popescu: and re the facts/fiction discussion : a very good rule of thumb to distinguish fact from fiction is right here - can it be opposed to anyone ? for instance, trump's election is a fact, and here it is a fact because i have opposed it to alf to force him to reconsider his political evaluator.
mircea_popescu: whether he did or didn't or did a bum job of it or anything isn't even at issue - the oppositive quality of facts distingushes them from mere meaning just like the thumb stands out on the hand.
mircea_popescu: and for this reason ratings can't have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
mircea_popescu: so that settles that. nevertheless, orders to pay CAN have to be signed, because obviously they will be opposed to the maker during settling of accounts.
mircea_popescu: whether they also should is i suppose in discussion here ?
trinque: right, so then I've cleaved the nature of the two systems in my own mind.
shinohai munches on Kennedy's forearm in lieu of popcorn
trinque: I certainly would want to be able to show that I moved even latte money in accordance with someone's agreement.
asciilifeform: there are several quite obvious scenarios where 1) i would like a reliable picture of what someone else rated 2) it is impractical to converse. one, discussed earlier, is death. another -- long voyages, at sea, on the run from nazis, with partizans in the forest, etc.
mircea_popescu: i don't have a very strong opinion on the signing of payment orders. i suppose it's a tradeoff of convenience vs corectness.
trinque: or "every user of this system accepts my judgement on the movement of coin wholly, or uses something else"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian.
trinque: I suppose that's fine too
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: here is i think where we disagree irreconcilably, 99% of everything i learned that i see as worth knowing came from dead folx.
asciilifeform: and in particular from dead wots.
mircea_popescu: trinque that's the consideration here. if you have the signatures, evidently people can trust you with larger sums, but how much larger i can not say ; but evidently you will need the management in place to be able to produce the materials on challenge.
trinque: perhaps a man can sign his own wot time to time
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but they were not ratings.
mircea_popescu: trinque you can even have a system of "orders over X value or nth in a day have to be clearsigned" and have the user set X and n ?
trinque: I like that.
mircea_popescu: can't possibly be any complaints, with such a scheme.
mircea_popescu: "this account is authorised to draft up to 3 times sums up to 1 btc through direct command" and have people send you a signed thing to bump it.
trinque: asciilifeform: if one wanted to make a statement for all time about a key, there's always a deed.
asciilifeform: trinque: this doesn't solve the ~expectation~ problem
trinque: which?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576558 << well as it turns out, ratings are a lot closer to sexual intercourse than previously realised ; but in any sense what i meant was the point of reference (ie, i will fuck this curvaceous lady as the body presents itself and do business with fa9fblabla, which are the two presentations of the supposed same but otherwise uncapturable spirit). i didn't mean business BY the keys when i s☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:01 asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
mircea_popescu: aid business WITH the keys. the manner of conducting business is left to the faculty of the merchant ; at issue is the reference point of said business.
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian. << i have a hard time agreeing with this; even should death prevent a rating reflective of the current state of things, a past rating from a ghost could still be "meaningful" in its distance from w/e the current status -is-, no?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576821 << we had an early thread where asciilifeform and i commiserated over how much "seveneves" sucked (seven eves, get it!1)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 22:26 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.
mircea_popescu: hanbot can you read dead languages ? if not, why not ?
hanbot: "this guy sucks" vs "this guy was demonstrably awesome and got hit by the suckray"
asciilifeform: hanbot: i was defending this pov for past 2hrs, apparently to quite deaf ears.