mircea_popescu: generally rainers/torquemadas/etc are politically pliable
a111: Logged on 2016-12-01 19:25 mircea_popescu: i have personally repaired malfunctioning electronics with a well placed hit to the side.
BingoBoingo: Also possible Trump want Preet to leave in scandal the next activist prosecution overturned on appeal
BingoBoingo: Related
http://epmonthly.com/article/treating-chainsaw-laceration-ep-enough/ "The patient claimed that he was given a staple remover and was told to remove the staples in one week. Emergency department staff stated that they gave him a staple remover to bring to his primary care physician to have the staples removed in 12-14 days. The patient removed the staples three days after they had been placed. Two months later, the patient returne
BingoBoingo: d to the emergency department with severe pain, swelling, and warmth to his knee."
pete_dushenski: many congrats to asciilifeform and mircea_popescu on squeeking in under the nth xmas deadline for #fuckgoats. looking forward to getting my hands on one, whatever batch that may be. will probably order a few and give as gifts to sufficiently nerdy friends.
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5436.69, vol: 2209723.55590000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5436.69
pete_dushenski: also props to trinque for the wot visualiser. nifty bidness, that.
pete_dushenski: speaking of blogs, this comment came in recently with a link to an reuters piece about how the tsx had just turfed canadian scammer king anthony di iorio as their 'chief digital officer', just as i told them to do exactly five months ago. so goddam golden. mega-satisfying even though i didn't make a penny off the prediction.
pete_dushenski: of course they framed it as fat tony 'leaving to pursue his other blockchain projects' but his days are officially over.
pete_dushenski: refresher for those who are less familiar with fat tony : he was the lead pre-mine scammer behind ethereum. he basically handpicked the autistic alien vitalik and shoved his greasy wop hand up the poor kid's butt and played him like kermit the frog.
mats: mattis is legendary among marines
☟︎ mats: although there's that incident involving an ODA group asking for medevac, being refused by mattis, forcing usaf to fly in from k2 with an unrested crew that didn't have maps
mats: some say he wouldn't have refused, if it had been marines in the fight
mats: fwiw, it reads like he made a good call, with the information he had at the time
mats: anyway, i don't believe that combat vets (or vets of any kind) are suitable for public service in this manner
mats: the zero defect approach to officer evaluation reports and utter lack of experience managing money in a large org are not good traits
mats: they're encouraged to spend, not manage
pete_dushenski: interesting. for the ignorant, what's the 'zero defect approach' ?
a111: Logged on 2015-05-19 02:03 mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers
mats: >Top-down training directives and strategies combined with brief leader development experiences for junior officers leads to a perception that micromanagement is pervasive. They do not believe they are being afforded sufficient opportunity to learn from the results of their own decisions and actions.
pete_dushenski: isn't such a faulty approach something mattis could do away with ? or too embedded ?
mats: risk aversion runs deep in the officer corps, it's hard to say
pete_dushenski: maybe a russian invasion, or at least a smattering of carpet bombing campaigns, will straighten out their obsession with risk aversion. but that might be a few decades off. unlikely trump can live that long, even if i wouldn't be surprised if he put an end to the two-term limit.
pete_dushenski: "That's the Unicode world, a world where impotence was legislated a litte further" << mircea_popescu, missing 'l'
pete_dushenski: unless its majick mikroskopick invisabru unicode 'l' tucked in there in martian font.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-29 16:50 trinque: maybe Framedragger's bag
Framedragger: congratulations on FUCKGOATS, asciilifeform and mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: jurov: cloudfront errors at the ml again
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 06:16 mats: mattis is legendary among marines
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the rise and fall of the theranos lizzard club may be of interest to the alf minded.
deedbot: Beausoleil voiced for 30 minutes.
jurov: mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall
jurov: btw, if you saw news.ycombinator recently, a third of frontpage were about AWS. interesting noone noticed (or was muffled, dunno).
Framedragger: (oh god, i'll come back from asia believing that lithuania should seriously suck china's cock as much as possible so that it could *maybe* get bought by them. like, that's the best option for them. idem poland, only that the latter are way ahead (and a tad bit more autonomous from bruxelles.usa) (e.g.: coaxing chinese to invest into gdansk port; .lt's port is just about done.))
Framedragger: (there is that feeling (maybe just a feeling) that folx here (.ko) always have some spare cash. (i mean like jb financial group, etc.) whereas in yurop, everything's on the brink of bankruptcy, disaster's around the corner.)
Framedragger: after reflecting upon economic cycles and the crashes to come, ii have presently assumed a state of relative tranquillity...
shinohai: How's Korea Framedragger had any mole de perro yet? xD
Framedragger: it's pretty cool :) what's that tho? i am most uncultured. lots of octopus, fish, assorted seafood was had, tho :)
Framedragger: also potato pancakes. but we have those in .lt. .lt is basically just potatoes.
mircea_popescu: eh don't be too harsh, you also have potato dumplings with a little cheese in them.
shinohai: I had iguana while I was in central america, about as exotic as I got with the locals
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: totally. i hear you. and lots of sour cream. like srsly lots. to ease the potatoes in
mircea_popescu comes from dairy country, likes girls with big tits and eats a cup o' sour cream a day.
mircea_popescu: (srsly, napolact, the transylvania milk and dairy factory, sells sour cream in these 600g buckets.)
Framedragger: never had a thing for large asses and boobs. maybe 'cause i'm quite small...
Framedragger: hmm i guess you can, like, spill that on girls, etc.; i can see that.
mircea_popescu: apparently not. anyway, the mp sandwich includes a layer of sour cream.
Framedragger: this randomly reminded me of this film ^ from czechoslovakia. mircea_popescu probably knows. there's a scene with the guy stamping the girl in the train station. it's beautiful. (but for srsly. 1960s .cz film, you know)
Framedragger: totally recommend it, even if my film-recommendation-credit has run dry
☟︎ Framedragger: ohya. fat everywhere, lots of pig, yes indeed. there is that.
Framedragger: (i need to uh reconnect with my kin-nature or sth, forgot)
Framedragger: of the same kind is fatty polish kvašnica soup. quite good.
mircea_popescu: eh, i'm more partial to drier, vegetable heavy, lovage ladden شوربا-style things.
mircea_popescu can't stand azn soups for all the fucking oil they put in there.
Framedragger: the oil is quite present... also did you just spell porridge in arabic script?
mircea_popescu: it's an ancient persian dish, sour meat and vegetable broth.
mircea_popescu: very well spread in the old world, it's çorba in turkish, ciorba in romanian, i would identify it as the core of cultural identity for non-western europe.
mircea_popescu: much like castration is the cultural identity of western europe.
Framedragger: interestingly i find the .ko boyz quite subdued, i mean in all kinds of senses incl libido, but that may very well be a very superficial impression
Framedragger: i guess i should try to talk to girls here huh
Framedragger: didn't really get the chance. except for in retrospect missed opportunities :/
mircea_popescu: drop all the stupid computer shit right now and go out and talk to all the girls you see.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this dumb shit, they ain't got computers where you live ?
Framedragger: "i'm coding". yeahyeah. i'm off to the DMZ/JSC tomorrow which is sth i wanted to go to. will have opportunity
mircea_popescu: what possible fucking outcome can you obtain from "coding".
Framedragger: gonna sound dumb, but not sure where i could go. i hate clubbing. i guess i should find nice places etc
mircea_popescu: you don't have to ~go~ somewhere to meet people, especially not in ancient inhabited places like asia.
Framedragger: (oh also, shot from a real gun for first time yesterday. pretty cool. never thought there'd be that much of a gun powder smell, and flash of light.)
mircea_popescu idly wonders if the hama massacre and hafez' socialist roots have anything to do with the junior bashar's poor reception in the us and ru support. the father did create an unique network of alawites all through the 80s...
Framedragger: yeah. good to have a concrete reference in mind i guess.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, isn't it remarkable the ustardian social media isn't up in arms about all the sex discrimination going on in iraq ? why, pray tell, ONLY MALES "of fighting age" are being suspected ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. the battle for mosul, originally slated to end about a month ago, and then upgraded to end about today, has been upgraded again to take "months" hence. i think i want a refund.
mircea_popescu: (for the innocent : there was a 2015 "we'll take mosul in spring" thing, also. you never hear anything about it today BECAUSE the key of usg behaviour is exactly
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 : they make one a year. if this year's fails then "it never really happened" ; if it succeeds then "see, we always win, told you so!")
☝︎ deedbot: walter_ voiced for 30 minutes.
walter_: Thanks. Anybody watching the XVC drama?
walter_: yes, seems not discussed here, found nothing on qntra as well
walter_: cannot tell if "good", but what got me interested is it was 1. written from scratch, 2. advertised "innovation" (fast transactions, hybrid PoW/PoS), 3. main dev sounds arrogant but competent
mircea_popescu: lmao, what's with this anon derps taking pseudonyms from fiction ? john connor, really ?
walter_: last week was full of entertaining events for this coin
walter_: is it appropriate to discuss alts here?
mircea_popescu: anywya, so obscure altcoin dropped 50% or something and there's some drama.
shinohai: Sounds like the same thing that happens with almost *every altcoin
mircea_popescu: "thios website is considered a questionable source" being the giveaway. i suppose the idea is thetimes.whitehouse.gov is unquestionable ?
mircea_popescu: "i and other open source contributors" sez mr. sieradski. open source is starting to be quite shameful an association by now.
mircea_popescu: recall the 90s when all the bitching was on about china's firewall ?
mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: "doubling down" has a meaning, it's not "everything idiots do when not doing wagner+cyanide"
mircea_popescu: just like investment has a meaning, it's not "anything idiots spend money on"
mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
☟︎ thestringpuller: asciilifeform: if you submit non-GPG it give you pretty error. again not that it matters...just a thing.
mod6: <+jurov> mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall << ah, thanks jurov!
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> dog. << lmao
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:32 mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
mircea_popescu: stupid naturally herds together, and to very much the same degree. there isn't anything you can do about it, and ftr the shepherd FOLLOWS the herd, doesn't lead it. he may imagine he leads it, if it makes him feel better about living in the middle of nowhere among a pile of animal dung, but whatevers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider you just said pnoje above. this settles the point.
mircea_popescu: not like they're sitting around wearing kimonos and laughing at the idiocy of dicking around with a small plastic lavalamp.
mircea_popescu: syrian "color revolution" also fails. does syria belong to "the syrians" ?
mircea_popescu: who are these syrians / chinese / whatevers things belong to.
mircea_popescu: and the chinese can't afford to get married because bitch wants place to spawn and place to spawn within icbm distance of anything worth one's time cost 1mn+ ie five lifetimes.
mircea_popescu: worse situation than sf. what exactly wasn't exported ?
mircea_popescu: did you see the guy who had a "for free just as good version" consisting of buying a software radio thing (for slightly more than what FUCKGOATS costs) and you know, listening to man made "entropy"
mircea_popescu: if any kind of divinity existed this sort of truth-symmetrical idiocy would provoke thunderstorms.
mircea_popescu: i suppose getting two tuned to the same frequency and then debiasing them together may result in something (precisely because taking advantage of n in that horrible snr). otherwise with a single item... tough.
mircea_popescu: aha. hence my comment re thunderstorms and truth-symmetrical.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it - maybe i should do exactly that.
mircea_popescu: before the republic nobody seriously contemplated, let alone put resources towards, most sane ends and goals.
mircea_popescu: and this includes "cyberpunks" and whatever else - they still thought in terms of "the country" and bartlesian "in the end '''real''' life aka socialism prevails"
mircea_popescu: "A report from BuzzFeed found that, in the final three months of the US presidential campaign, the top-performing fake election news stories on Facebook generated more engagement than the top stories from major news outlets such as the New York Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, NBC News and others." <<->>
http://trilema.com/2016/the-war-with-the-press/ mircea_popescu: the very evident "new york times, washington / huffington post etc do not produce strings worth more per megabyte than any other markov process" is elided in favour of "we shall label this failure of ours in terms of an external phenomenon and posture really convincingly about it". really, is it "being investigated" ? who the fuck is the agent in that agentless phrase and who the fuck's gonna supply the army.
mircea_popescu: Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. It is a real danger to democracy."
phf: "misinforming people"
mircea_popescu: they're looking to farm trust. ANYTHING but the fucking obvious - stop supporting socialism already!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i imagine what they mean by hackathon is one of those pbs donation drives. except instead of girls at phones now they have boys at keyboards.
mircea_popescu: as per "boys worth bent bottlecap per head ; girls slightly more" economic imperative.
phf: hackathon is a period of time for exclusively remote teams to get together and work on some problems that benefit from face to face, or more generally a period of uninterrupted work done by an asynchronous team. that's the original and the only meaning in the spirit of "consult the dictionary"
mircea_popescu: i'd say the release groups being the first and to date the best example of async teams solving problems that benefit from face to face.
phf: true, i was a small child then, but my first exposure to gatherings were through demoscene
mircea_popescu: and since we're on it, i'd say the scene was the early republic, not derpy "cyberpunks/cypherpuns/whatever"
mircea_popescu: back when /me still had a lot of faith in humanity, /me still didn't give a rat's ass about the us.
phf: i heard about amiga prods, but at least in moscows i didn't know anyone who had it
phf: i mean all the tools were ports from amiga. "nah, you don't use photoshop, here's this thing that we ported from amiga"
phf: asciilifeform: yep, grafx2 in its DOS incarnation
phf: i might've seen that, but i don't think i saw it until after i moved to u.s.
mircea_popescu: "Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We absolutely don't do all these releases, to please the general user that rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and see's the scene releases as a source to play all these games for free." << all the way down to despising the consumer / i just want to jwz.
mircea_popescu: at one point everything worth the mention worked like this ; it being the only way things can work.
mircea_popescu: the common man is here to be cut up and the meat fried, not running fucking "democracies" and making "choices" and whatnot.
phf: i remember taking linear algebra course in u.s. college, sort of mildly excited "finally learn this shit proper!" just to realize that my level of knowledge by then was grad research level. stopped showing up half way through, just taking tests..
phf: was sort of notorious for publishing "cyber speculative" nonsense in the style of whatshisname, rock singer
mircea_popescu: myeah. essentially california didn't start sucking now, or last year, or last decade. intellectually speaking it was always nothing. it sucked in 1990 like it sucked in 1960 and 1930.
phf: "floppy drives are so HOT this year"
mircea_popescu: and for the record, this has been ongoing. in 1916 it was EXACTLY the same nonsense "oh, california is coming in a big way, let's move the theatrical company over".
mircea_popescu: place's been coming in a big way since the 1859 gold find put it on the map, and throughout this century and a half it never ammounted to more than high rents and jam tomorrow.
phf uses grafx2 port as main and only graphics editor
mircea_popescu: i can't say i ever used either that much to tell, but i did fuck around with art studio a lot as a 6 yo
mircea_popescu: phf incidentally, to round the thing, let's compare the 90s compo with the 2010s hackathon. o, that's right, these lame kids come from schools with no grades! the concept of there being a winner, of choice and hierarchy is all but lost.
mircea_popescu: the focus moves from achievement to "we were physically together tapping keys for a time" i nthe exact same sense iranian women hang out together in the kitchen. "participative experience".
mircea_popescu: the only possible end result of which is being fucked.
phf: "i have this idea for a project, maybe i'll complete it by the end, or maybe i won't even start, so what are you working on?"
mircea_popescu: "i got a bun in the oven, or maybe i'm just late, does ivan still drink ?"
mats: at least half a dozen by my count
☟︎ phf: i met this small family of germans on a vacation growing up, and they were very visceral, roughing and tumbling with each other, and when i joined in their play, it was tough, they'd punch hard and try and sink you in the pool, but they acted same way with each other and just generally enjoyed what was happening. in fact i'm pretty sure they took it easy on me. i remembering thinking that they were like wolf cubs (they were from Dresden
phf: so Berlin boys at the same hotel would rag on them, but from remote, because thems berlins boys were much more into talking)
phf: people i knew back home were much more into verbal sparring, but following the same principles, you enter into dialog take a lot of abuse hope to come out on top, but at the end everyone's friends
phf: when i came to u.s. my biggest surprise was that locals are into neither. you try and rough them up they think you some kind of crazy person, you try and get them into a debate they get all scared and confused.
phf: asciilifeform: well, not unless both forms of behavior are "developmental issues"
trinque: US is not a homogenous ball of gray goo
trinque: sounds perfectly southern to me
phf: trinque: yes yes that's why i prefer going sporting with rednecks and southerners, they don't cry about things
trinque: Tacoma Washington suddenly sprung to mind
trinque: in the mountains up there'd be great for hermitage
mats has a great travel poster of olympus mons
mats: i'd have asked that canadian fella to print all the spacex and nasa sets on canvas but he had to go and be retarded, so...
trinque: mats: that series of posters was pretty damn good
mats: i have half a dozen of them hanging and another ten or eleven in a crate
a111: Logged on 2016-11-01 21:29 asciilifeform: trinque: consider: a 'saturn' and the maersk cargo fleet cost similarly. but they are unlike: 'saturn' is a cult/religious object (in the sense where nobody seriously attempts to calculate its roi) , rather more like the great pyramids.
mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
☟︎ mats: i mean specifically the folks ~in space~ rather than those on earth, aspiring to be there. no longer taking free air, water, food for granted, cooperating to survive in vacuum or organizing as a society to terraform $planet
phf: according neil stephenson in such a situation only womens will survive
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-03-29 17:58 asciilifeform: phf: seveneves was a misery
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:56 mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
a111: Logged on 2016-11-28 18:37 asciilifeform: wot rating is the one scenario that most screamingly calls for attributable proclamation.
trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
☟︎ trinque: especially as relates to the payments system
trinque: in regards to WoT, it allows me to at any time rebuild the graph with certainty
mats: ben_vulpes: certainly.
mats: i grew up violently scolded whenever i'd leave meat on bones, grains of rice behind on the plate, and i've carried this discipline through to adulthood
trinque: how does scarcity evaluate to cooperation and unity in your mind?
mats: simultaneously growing up in america among the wastage and vast consumption culture, the whole thing is ugly to its core
trinque would not hate life as a space pirate
mats: in vaccuum - every grain is consumed, every ml of urine recovered
☟︎ trinque: could just as well have been "1"
trinque: but I like the stardate being present
trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
☟︎ trinque: under the present scheme I could do the same, but have to trust the wire to be honest, or find a better wire, which proceeds towards dragging gossipd in as a dependency
danielpbarron: this is counter the the gossipd model of "i heard so-and-so said whatever"
trinque: I understood it to be able to do both attributable and non-attributable statements
trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
☟︎ danielpbarron: so then dump your copy of it and sign it periodically
trinque: in one case, both parties can verify a rating using the rating material itself.
trinque: in the other, we must trust my server is perfect, our logs are perfect, and so on
danielpbarron: i don't see the benefit in signing the rating string; if it gets mitm'd it won't match on the bot's end and the user will clearly see something is amiss
danielpbarron: there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
☟︎ trinque: danielpbarron: how do you justify signing anything by this logic ?
☟︎ trinque: verifying his signature *is asking him*
danielpbarron: trinque, so that two parties can know they have the same text
danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
☟︎ trinque: danielpbarron: I recently signed my IPs for various servers
trinque: if I go change them, yes, signed material does not update
trinque: which does not invalidate that at the time of signature they were precisely the statement I made
trinque: your observation is misapplied; the signature does not say "for all time"
trinque: it says "this was precisely the state of this text at time"
trinque: and lets not soften the definitions of things because "o no too hard"
danielpbarron: that's what sigs are for, one-off "maje sure you get this text unmolested" ; ~not~ here is a public record of official signed things
☟︎ trinque: you'll have to define your terms if you want to proceed
trinque: wtf does "official signed things" mean here
trinque: how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma
☟︎ trinque: or for that matter verify anything I got from assbot or prior
danielpbarron: after somebody complains that it's showing the wrong thing
trinque: this bottle is also somehow distinct from the bottle where deedbot is currently lying to him
danielpbarron: the ratings are a guide. the WoT is people. do you think this whole chat has been mitm'd for the last howevermany years and nobody noticed?
trinque: lets walk it the other direction
danielpbarron: the rating guides you to the person who you may they request signed materian
trinque: danielpbarron: what if I just allow whoever currently is set as "nick" to rate as "nick"
phf: what i got from the argument last time is that wot ratings don't need that sort of meticulous bureaucratic audit trail. my personal inclination is to of course specify and sign and process (plus it would be cool to have own fork of wot maintained by own means), but i'm not sure i disagree with the first point
trinque: "don't need" is the sort of squishy lazy compromise that'd better have a reason
trinque: or else get off ass and do better
mats: FUCKGOATS is impressive, thanks asciilifeform
trinque: this fucking "don't need" argument is why people md5,
https, whatever
trinque: I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn't just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings
☟︎ danielpbarron: trinque, not; at least in current model only the bot is the iffy part. my decryption of the string proves tothe bot that i am me
trinque: I am aware of how the bot works; answer my actual question
phf: trinque: we trust you, it's in the wot. and if you break the wot we'll rate you negatively using the wot :)
trinque: so we've found the "sweet spot" where we have removed enough untrustworthy components and might as well settle down and have kids / get fat here?
trinque: phf: yeah I'm not taking responsibility for the next exploit in all this garbage tyvm
trinque: perhaps danielpbarron thinks we should prune our blockchains of all blocks without unspent outputs too
trinque: because we all know the system has always worked
phf: trinque: why not? my responsibility, the log, failed as a combination of things inside of my control and outside of my control. i apologized and tried better next time. it's not a bad system.
trinque: what I mean is, you were not impaled.
trinque: so then why is danielpbarron getting in the way of me trying "better next time"
trinque: in advance, rather than once upon a fuckup
phf: he's arguing a position against yours. he's not getting in your way. perhaps he's trying to say that he's not particularly eager to have dozens of his own signatures floating around with some opaque digital data in there directed at machine?
trinque: I didn't hear a position other than "not needed"
trinque: that isn't a statement with content
danielpbarron: my argument isn't "not needed" ; it's that it's dangerous
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:55 danielpbarron: that's what sigs are for, one-off "maje sure you get this text unmolested" ; ~not~ here is a public record of official signed things
phf: ratings are meaningless though without the creator
trinque: the fact is preserved that he who had this key said X
☟︎ phf: asciilifeform: no no that's sort of like the "what's the wot" article. the "number is meaningless without asking the creator" part
trinque: if you put something in the signed material that gives when, that, also
trinque: k conflated here is "this was said" vs "what it means"
trinque: I am only interested in the hardening of the former
danielpbarron: i think it's even dangerous to use sigs to preserve things in stone like that. shouldn't be more than a tool to ensure we're talking about the same text. tge signed material doesn't enforce itself. otherwise we're off into smart contract territory
phf: this is a very beurocratic position
phf: you're redefining the meaning of wot "for sekuriti!!1"
trinque: "meh, data integrity is your job :^)" << >> "alright, I want fucking signed material then"
trinque: this is emphatically "I just want to" use it the way it is
phf: you don't want to even hear the opposing side so resort to constructing strawmen
trinque: what did I not hear, exactly?
danielpbarron: signed ratings, to me, seems like it mostly benifits random newcomer/evesdropper with little to no benefit for actual users
trinque: phf: how the fuck do I parse a statement like that ^
trinque: where does it fit in the model of the discussion so far ?
trinque: it's just another ad hoc "I feel X"
phf: trinque: i ~understood~ what he said, and it's an additional point unrelated to his previous argumnt
mats: strong words here, lets be pals
danielpbarron: i've been reading the log for years. i'd very much like to see someone hack the bot and change ratings. let enemy make a fool of himself
trinque: "he can fuck my wife; his dick's small anyway"
jurov: lol actually it was not hacked. just forked.
jurov: and good luck for someone comingoutside to determine from ratings wtf happened with bitbet
jurov: was that the argiument?
danielpbarron: the fork happened in the channel. we all read about it. whereas a hack would have no context to back the rating up
phf: the architecture ~right now~ is as secure as your setup. there's no way to mitm wot ratings. if there's an error in wot, there's not even a point to start a stink. you go and fix the rating if you changed it drunk, or you let trinque know that there's some serious issue. we unroll last week's signed wot and proceed from there
phf: the proposed alternative provides a verifiable audit trail of all the ratings made by everyone, without necessary solving mitm problems
danielpbarron: it was my understanding that we specifically don't want such an audit trail
phf: that was the conclusion of the thread last time we had this conversation, yes
☟︎ trinque: speak instead of what you want, eh?
trinque: great, but I'm discussing providing something as a service as a matter of business.
trinque: I'm not going to provide Eulora infrastructure with a standard of "if something fucks up, eh, we'll go back and fix it later"
phf: i missed the part where wot was going to be integrated into eulora? i know that deedbot was mentioned
danielpbarron: so i assumed people would still have to resister their actual key with the bot prior to getting their eulora account
☟︎ trinque: says rates and deeds in-game there
danielpbarron: ok. so then let eulora dump and sign its ratings periodically. i don't see why you shouldn't trust it to give you the correct data
trinque: you are arguing *from* a conclusion rather than towards one
trinque: so give me your perspective from the other direction.
phf: trinque: he doesn't want an audit trail of ratings.
trinque: that is a purpose. "so that I do not have an audit trail"
trinque: and I already know, "because then people can grab an item from the trail and say that's HEAD"
danielpbarron: i agree the ratings should be signed when sent over wire (to preserve the text) but there is no reason the sigs need to be around each individual rating
trinque: imagine I'm a bot saying why after every danielpbarron
trinque: because it is upon me to keep the integrity of the db?
trinque: if so, I say fine, I choose the tool called cryptography to do so
danielpbarron: trinque, also because fuck anyone who wants my ratings. anyone who has business in seeing them already has means to
phf: trinque: because ratings doesn't have meaning at all outside of rater
phf: ~i~ see it as an equivalent of signing and stamping every page of notebook "for integrity"
trinque: it is not your notebook; I am holding it
trinque: why is my claim "this is page x of phf's notebook" good enough here, but my claim "phf paid me 1000 BTC" is not good enough ?
phf: it's a metaphor, you can find all kinds of ways to invalidate it, i was hoping it might clarify understanding
trinque: sure, I'm just sparring back!
phf: yes, but i understand you, and you don't understand me, there's really no point in sparing until there's a mutual disagreement over shared understanding. this is like sparring 101
phf: asciilifeform: i understood your take and i think that wot is a poor defense against "good looking corpse" problem
trinque: phf: I understood, and it would make more sense then to have a way of querying phf for his notebook
trinque: there's all this theatrical "I rated X in public" and it's written with finger in sand
phf: i think it's entirely petty and pointless to use wot as a weaponized shunning
trinque: certainly uncovers a source of disagreement.
trinque also in favor of cryptographic mark of cain
phf: a magic talisman against badmen
trinque: this was the problem mod6 had with signing the dependency turds thrown into deedbot
trinque: ended up with disclaimer at top saying "I do not love these; I merely state that they exist"
trinque: I see this as the meaning of a rating already. "This exists"
trinque: if I say "I love my wife" in it, then I do; signing "wife exists" doesn't mean I love her
trinque: asciilifeform: aha, wherever this data exists it is not implied by a sig
trinque: signing is the cryptographic act of observation
phf: well, what's the thinking here? that after your death all negrated entities are "possible suspects"?
phf: traditionally this is solved with "obama dun did it, i hear him knocking on the door"
trinque: if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected.
☟︎ trinque: that fact is useful after he is gone.
phf: well, if that's a common understanding, then i don't understand mp's what is wot article
phf: asciilifeform: when did vpatch come in? what the fuck
trinque: before another bout of triggering happens, I think this well defines the debate
phf: ~ratings are meaningless outside of rater~ this is our fundamental disagreement
trinque: are ratings ephemeral indications to consult the author or are they permanent marks
trinque: it is also not necessary to say that because ratings exist in the past I must care about them as much as those more recent
trinque: what was said being distinct from how I evaluate it
phf: asciilifeform: well, but what's the "more fundamental disagreement" stated?
phf: i don't know if we disagree there, but i don't see how that makes a difference
phf: if i were to give a pubkey to a111 and it starts rating people based on how many btcbase references they make a day (there's a quota!)
phf: i'm not going to go asking a111 what he meant by it, and i would laugh to anyone who'd try
phf: but what am i going to do with that knowledge? i'd still have to ask somebody (presumably you) to both proove overwnship of phuctor bot and to explain to me what those ratings mean. or else you have a document that you prepared that explains the logic, etc.
trinque: asciilifeform: release gossipd already so I can write a DHT for it !1!!1 solves WoT, solves "DNS", solves ...
phf: asciilifeform: ok, my point was that i don't see how that's a more fundamental than "no rating outside of rater"
phf: oh so you were saying fundamental disagreement between you and danielpbarron rather than me
phf: well, dpb dropped out of this conversation, and i apparently have isolated understanding of wot.
trinque: at least now we're in a position to discuss the cost/benefit of a forgetful WoT.
trinque: if it is better to forget, lets make that explicit. when/why, and not just as an artifact of being built on shoddy computing infrastructure.
☟︎ phf: for me wot is a partial externalization of a hawala network and as far as -1,0,1 is concerned ~perhaps~ indicates prevalent opinions among the people whose opinion i value, but by convention only. in this sense the wot follows the lords and not the other way around. it has some practical use like serving as a door bouncer and ostensibly letting newbs know who to talk to.
trinque: it becomes hard to distinguish from the gossipd-graph, eh?
trinque: I could see an argument that the WoT evolves into the gossipd graph.
trinque: and then yes, can't talk to a deadman in either case.
trinque: whereas I see them as distinct; wot is the history of my past and present gossipd connections, and indications of what I thought of them
phf: neither current wot nor gossipd spec wot have the history component, because if you go by "there's no rating outside of rater" past ratings make absolutely no difference.
trinque: I meant "I used to be peered with / do business with / talk to X, but may no longer"
trinque: it is my history with the person eval'd to what I deem the present state
phf: well, speaking of history audit trail does introduce explicit history where there wasn't any
trinque: something else comes to mind; there exists in our logs a person named trinque who is not the present trinque
☟︎ trinque: we keep the logs, presumably forever
trinque: if ratings are ephemeral, seems logs must also be. relevant here that we tend to rate in the logs.
mircea_popescu waves. i shall write this short i woke up with and read all this!
mircea_popescu: aaand we find teh english has no equivalent of ojina/užina wtf is this bs.
mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
☟︎ danielpbarron: re preserving log: we don't sign each line we send. but feel free to sign the whole thing
jhvh1: danielpbarron: [KJV] Matthew 8:22 :: But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576455 << running the "oh, that wasn't a wedding, who goes out in the desert to have weddings (outside of weirdo californians) and there was no leftover food or musical instruments or anything)" side by side with the AP footage showing all the lively colored bedding and pots and pans and various bits of goatfucker musical instruments is quite the COIN exercise.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:39 mats: at least half a dozen by my count
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
mircea_popescu: civilised people have artificial light, stay up longer.
mircea_popescu: with the light. you can put a chick to sleep right now by covering its head. the brain is eye-powered like in frogs.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:48 asciilifeform: i thought that all children played like this...
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:50 asciilifeform: aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
mircea_popescu: not that it's bad for kids, though it does promote some tilt towards the tomboyish look in girls that i don't find welcome.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:03 asciilifeform: they are in the gorbachev 'kooperativ' phase
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:13 mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:16 phf: according neil stephenson in such a situation only womens will survive
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 ben_vulpes: mats: also entirely unprecedented
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576496 << this is a bad idea, for multiple reasons. one of them being that it requires to give sign capacity to the clients, which is deeply undesirable ; another being that it encourages a retarded notion/expectation of repudiability.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:24 trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:30 mats: in vaccuum - every grain is consumed, every ml of urine recovered
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:39 trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
ben_vulpes: a lifetime of communist-repressed masculinity leaking out i suppose
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:44 trinque: that is in no way equivalent
ben_vulpes: ("fewer than eight cylinders? communist. more than eight cylinders? communist." tm r those car guys)
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576521 << they are ?! why ? i have no intention for my rating of X to be opposable to me. it is information i provide free of charge and on an as-is basis, literally saying "if you're trying to eval X i may be able to help". it would be the height of impudence for y to demand something on the basis of "i have this here signed thing".
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
mircea_popescu: this theoretical problem is evinced in practice by the expiration problem - what do you do about all the ratings i may have signed ? so you have rating for x at time t, what's this say ? is it correct or isn't it correct ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing prevents me from putting in ratings as deeds ; nor anyone else. yet few do.
mircea_popescu: the old distinction between fact and fiction prevails. ratings are not facts.
ben_vulpes: oh come now you had the keys out when decrypting deedbot's pad
ben_vulpes: the keys are out already, spend five seconds to write a thing if it matters to you.
mircea_popescu: yes i had the keys out. but to pee not to make johnny little brothers.
ben_vulpes: if 'gymnastics', then does it really matter?
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576515 << it is not a good thing in any sense. think for a moment : if the ratings are live, which is to say, they actually do stand up to their purpose of "if you try to eval x ask these people", then those people will re-advertise. if they do not, then they should have been deleted in the first place.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:42 trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely no valuable information that would be lost if you fucked up the db today and we had to re-do it. just inconvenience to a lot of live people, but it's of the nature of "tee hee i garbled everyone's shopping lists as found on the fridge" not of the "tee hee i burned all extant aramaic manuscripts".
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 danielpbarron: there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
trinque: I address my counterposition to this in thread.
trinque: the hardware is all shit, and lies
trinque: so then it tends towards why warehouse this at all
trinque: if we are not warehousing cryptographic facts
trinque: I am for example not willing to do the wallet if fucking up the db is possible.
mircea_popescu: because we've decided to live in the world as it is rather than wait for someone else (who ?) to make a better one
mircea_popescu: trinque what do you mean by fucking up the db in that context as something else was being contemplated when i said it ?
trinque: in the case of both WoT and wallet, from an engineers perspective I have a database which changes state when outside parties tell it.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 trinque: danielpbarron: how do you justify signing anything by this logic ?
trinque: it is a fact that I have spoken this opinion at this time
mircea_popescu: a rating you mean ? but a rating isn't an opinion, it's an advertisement. much like an offer in a magazine is a tender not a deal.
trinque: the bare state of the data is the fact meant
trinque: I have here a machine with levers on it which can be pulled via proven control of a given key
trinque: except that it has also secret levers which can be pulled over the network card with a magic packet and all other sorts of nonsense
trinque: only defense against this I can see is warehousing what was said and being able to verify that it was said out of band
trinque: i.e. I immediately spray all signed material to a box whose only function is to back up the pile of signed incoming statements, and over a serial diode.
trinque: in the case of the wallet, I have something I can verify before and every time I move coin
trinque: this model is also applicable using OTP, I'm aware, but while it proves something to *me*, it doesn't prove it to anyone else.
trinque: hm. you know what. if I stockpile encrypted OTP material which is also encrypted to my own key, I suppose it does the same.
trinque: provided other people see me send this encrypted OTP to another
trinque takes it back. seems to require access to my private key for anyone else to believe it.
mircea_popescu: trinque so basically, to understand this, the problem you are working against is this situation where you are tricked into making false payments by a secret owner of your hardware ?
trinque: narrowing the hole for that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. and this confusion between fact and fiction driven by the engineering perspective that "oh it is a fact TO ME" eventually ends up with usg and the "fact" of "fake media"
mircea_popescu: trinque is this different from "you were tricked into making false payments by secret owner of all rsa keys" ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing transforms the rng bits into fact. they were fact, from the beginning, owing to the absence of meaning.
trinque: mircea_popescu: there are many enemies with many means of attack
mircea_popescu: trinque i believe the correct pill to this would be to keep the moving sums small, rather than fucking the mechanism.
trinque: is not the binary number which represents a rating a fact, which encodes a meaning?
mircea_popescu: ie, when dealing with unquantifiable unknown risks, methodological approaches are costs with no benefit./
mircea_popescu: trinque facts don't encode anything. that's what it's like to be a fact - you may only be interpreted, but exist outside and above any meaning.
mats: mircea_popescu: talking about killing medicare?
mircea_popescu: no whatever infrastructure development fund, i have nfi, the whole thing's vague as fake hair.
mats: well, cutting off its legs
mats: asciilifeform: i wonder how many people actually thought entitlements like SS, Medicare, would live forever...
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576528 << they have to. there is no "one" answer. suppose the case where i rate someone X as a 3 because i dunno, we go fishing. suppose A asks me about X because he's contemplating going hunting, and B asks me about X because he's contemplating playing chess.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:50 asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
mircea_popescu: to A i shall say "and he doesn't snore" and to B i shall say "he's a patient sort"
mircea_popescu: this notion that ratings encode some sort of single unified pointed scalar truth has got to die already. it's not only very stupid, it's actually in the way.
mircea_popescu: trinque i don't think you did, but we ended up with a whole front here and since we're discussing it let's discuss altogether.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and note that the only fact in your list of facts is my dying. which imparts some fact-flavour to the rest of the string.
trinque: but asciilifeform yes, along the ephemeral/gossip vs mark-of-cain fault line?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:52 danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
trinque: signed does not mean true in my view.
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to give the wolf a falx on top of everything.
trinque: it only means "this statement was made"
trinque: by the holder of the pen^H^H^Hkey
trinque: maybe you signed contract A at one point, then signed B which brought about termination of A, and I don't have B
mircea_popescu: there have to be layers. my hitting return is "this statement was made" ; my signing should be "this statement was made with a view of it being opposable to the maker".
trinque: doesn't mean A is still in effect
trinque: that I hold signed material does not say something about the state of the world
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform enemy already does this ; so does your gf. everyone you come into contact with is fabricating a fictional you from the whole cloth of their head.
trinque: only about the existence of that material in the eyes of the signer
mircea_popescu: which is how there exist these washpo that is a reputable source, qntra that is a spamsite etc.
mircea_popescu: trinque the problem here is like so : if you don't sign the stuff, you have a river, which will have to be forded. people wanting to get across know what they're doing - fording a river.
mircea_popescu: if you construct the signing infrastructure, there's a river with a railway bridge. however, segments may be missing ; and this can't be known.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:56 trinque: how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma
mircea_popescu: all i want to know from you if such a situation is discovered is if you did it or not.
mircea_popescu: and there's a damned good reason you don't, nor is it a service you offer : the difficulty of "looking at the data, establish its validity" exceeds building the ai.
mircea_popescu: well see part of the problem is merchant law. so : there's two kinds of writs, one of which can be opposed to the author, which is to say if he later makes a claim, anyone with standing (like the guy he's making the claim against) can oppose the writ.
mircea_popescu: "you owe me 5 guilders" "this writ says i don't". "i never meant for my daughter to be chained to the post naked for all comers" "then why does this offer her ?" etc.
trinque: I can see that I'm opposing massive precedent behind what signing means.
mircea_popescu: it's not just precedent, either. it has its own sort of contorted but domain-appropriate logic.
mircea_popescu: anyway. merchant law, which incidentally i advise all curious minds to review, not only long predates civil law or the british mandaciousa attempts to enact a systematized "common law" as older than it was - but actually informed all legal work of the states. they basically stole the merchant's code much like the french stole the templar's wealth.
mircea_popescu: not that there's anything wrong with stealing from the wise.
mircea_popescu: and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents"
trinque: this I can see, much better than earlier protests that "it's not necessary", meaning no ill towards danielpbarron
mircea_popescu: in fact, you can not at any point raise any objection to any of my ratings. they're whatever they are and you're more than welcome to go hang, there's no "detrimental reliance" on them for you.
trinque: it would be flooding the world with things you have to one by one argue against in court, more or less
mircea_popescu: there's two reasons one does not wish to be cavallier with signed matter. one is purely technological, as discussed briefly above, but the more important one is ecology of the republic of the mind. you wish to make THE STRICT MINIMUM of signed statements you can get by with AND NOT A SINGLE MORE.
mircea_popescu: and re the facts/fiction discussion : a very good rule of thumb to distinguish fact from fiction is right here - can it be opposed to anyone ? for instance, trump's election is a fact, and here it is a fact because i have opposed it to alf to force him to reconsider his political evaluator.
mircea_popescu: whether he did or didn't or did a bum job of it or anything isn't even at issue - the oppositive quality of facts distingushes them from mere meaning just like the thumb stands out on the hand.
mircea_popescu: and for this reason ratings can't have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: so that settles that. nevertheless, orders to pay CAN have to be signed, because obviously they will be opposed to the maker during settling of accounts.
mircea_popescu: whether they also should is i suppose in discussion here ?
trinque: right, so then I've cleaved the nature of the two systems in my own mind.
shinohai munches on Kennedy's forearm in lieu of popcorn
trinque: I certainly would want to be able to show that I moved even latte money in accordance with someone's agreement.
mircea_popescu: i don't have a very strong opinion on the signing of payment orders. i suppose it's a tradeoff of convenience vs corectness.
trinque: or "every user of this system accepts my judgement on the movement of coin wholly, or uses something else"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian.
mircea_popescu: trinque that's the consideration here. if you have the signatures, evidently people can trust you with larger sums, but how much larger i can not say ; but evidently you will need the management in place to be able to produce the materials on challenge.
trinque: perhaps a man can sign his own wot time to time
mircea_popescu: trinque you can even have a system of "orders over X value or nth in a day have to be clearsigned" and have the user set X and n ?
mircea_popescu: "this account is authorised to draft up to 3 times sums up to 1 btc through direct command" and have people send you a signed thing to bump it.
trinque: asciilifeform: if one wanted to make a statement for all time about a key, there's always a deed.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576558 << well as it turns out, ratings are a lot closer to sexual intercourse than previously realised ; but in any sense what i meant was the point of reference (ie, i will fuck this curvaceous lady as the body presents itself and do business with fa9fblabla, which are the two presentations of the supposed same but otherwise uncapturable spirit). i didn't mean business BY the keys when i s
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:01 asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
mircea_popescu: aid business WITH the keys. the manner of conducting business is left to the faculty of the merchant ; at issue is the reference point of said business.
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian. << i have a hard time agreeing with this; even should death prevent a rating reflective of the current state of things, a past rating from a ghost could still be "meaningful" in its distance from w/e the current status -is-, no?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 22:26 mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.
mircea_popescu: hanbot can you read dead languages ? if not, why not ?
hanbot: "this guy sucks" vs "this guy was demonstrably awesome and got hit by the suckray"