ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice
ben_vulpes: also on an ancient thread, horses are allowed on many oregon roads and highways, because this place was barely a place before the sixties. there are a pile of questions in the drivers exam here regarding how to behave around horses, even.
asciilifeform: from ben_vulpes's link: http://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=7711&ec=4&ch=twitter << very rare pistol, iirc the maker was sued out of business soon after it figured in evidence room re columbine postal
ben_vulpes: bizarre little handie
asciilifeform: it , iirc, was banned after folx discovered easy conversion to auto , and the postal was a pretext
asciilifeform: !~google tec-9
asciilifeform: ......
asciilifeform: ......
asciilifeform: ...?
asciilifeform: !~tslb
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Time since last block: 10 minutes and 53 seconds
ben_vulpes: !!google tec-9
deedbot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEC-9 << TEC-9 - Wikipedia | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkZlO7hVTfw << Tec 9, Rapid Fire is the Only Way to Fire! - YouTube | https://csgostash.com/weapon/Tec-9 << Tec-9 Skins - CS:GO Stash
jhvh1: asciilifeform: TEC - 9 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEC-9>; Tec 9 , Rapid Fire is the Only Way to Fire! - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DxkZlO7hVTfw>; intratec tec 9 All For Sale - GunBroker.com: <http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx%3FKeywords%3Dintratec%2Btec%2B9>
mircea_popescu: !!key SonGoku06
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/k0cvx/?raw=true
asciilifeform: https://cryptome.org/2016-info/trump-protect/pict37.jpg << elsewhere.
mod6: nb.
mircea_popescu: she looks like she never works out.
mod6: haha
mircea_popescu: is this socially acceptable now, pre-menopausal woman, no bar no buttlifts no nothing ?
mod6: i liked the pumpkin heads
mod6: they s/buttlifts/netflix/
mircea_popescu: well, if they didn't maybe someone'd give a shit.
mod6: solid point.
mod6: i love some of the dirty looks i get when checking out these pics on the train.
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: police d00d looks like he would rather be literally anywhere else
mircea_popescu: can ye blame him ?
mircea_popescu: "if this bitch starts reading poetry i'm shooting her"
asciilifeform: dunno, how often he gets to arrest naked chix
mircea_popescu: dude, that's not chix. there's sexual nudity and there's medical nudity.
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't touch her, what am i, a licensed nurse ?
mircea_popescu: let the dumb bitch work her ass off three seasons first, what the everloving is this "anything is acceptable" bs.
asciilifeform not even a licensed mengele, but would touch
mod6: with asbestos gloves tho rite?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at srs bzns ranch, http://68.media.tumblr.com/52e237009cd5e14e9d230dbee0542ed9/tumblr_musutw9wLf1rw74nso1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: with police gloves , naturally
mod6: nice
mod6: i like how the dude was like 'hey, these were training keys'
shinohai: Still avoiding the question of what those "training keyz" were generated on.
mircea_popescu: the retrospectivatron
asciilifeform: handy gadget in every household.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes holy shit what's that potluck disaster https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxP7SW-WEAAdvyX.jpg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see thread just now
mod6: congrats to the winners of the joke contest
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567375 << subj☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 00:39 asciilifeform: from ben_vulpes's link: http://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=7711&ec=4&ch=twitter << very rare pistol, iirc the maker was sued out of business soon after it figured in evidence room re columbine postal
mircea_popescu: looked more like a housemade flamethrower at first sight
asciilifeform: it's a columbinator.
mod6: pete_dushenski: hey, glad you got a prize, I did like the yugo joke.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude no wai that's an ACTUAL tec-9. too fucking banged up
mod6: Oh, maybe it wsa for the sax joke. Didn't see that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: antique. ~none made since late '90s, and was made half of plastic to even begin with
mircea_popescu: nuts.
asciilifeform: but ended up 'cult object' for complicated cultural reasonz
mod6: mainly because of rap iirc.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi why, it's not really a very good gun ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by all possible measures (save for cost, was cheapo) it sucked donkey balls, but on account of unusual shape became memorable in film etc
mircea_popescu: yeah. mostly cuz it looks like someone's garage-made flamethrower.
asciilifeform: swedish maker went bust after clinton banned it by name.
mod6: yeah, if those were envogue in the early 90s, the cheap aks were by the end of the 90s for sure.
mircea_popescu: i half expected it's a converted camping butane burner
asciilifeform: it resembles, imho, british 'sten', which was , yes, garage tech
mircea_popescu: open bolt etc
asciilifeform: ratatatatatat.
mircea_popescu: incidentally alf : why don't ANY of these fucking idiots doing "mass shootings" like EVER read a fucking training manual, figure out they're supposed to carry ft not ap small arms ?
mircea_popescu: "oh i'ma go to my school shoot everyone". really ?
mircea_popescu: it'd even suit their inability to aim something fierce.
asciilifeform: columbine d00dz supposedly brought propane tanks, but had nfi how to set off.
mircea_popescu: (in ww2, the worst marksman always got the flamethrower. worst job, shit's heavy, you gotta get close etc)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform propane my foot. plasticated gasoline mix what is this.
asciilifeform: bonus for using it british-style : douse 1,001 derps, then ask 'why not light match?'
asciilifeform: let them say why not.
asciilifeform: and make it known that if you see cop - will flick bic.
mircea_popescu: after all flame front is supersonic in atmosphere
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> (in ww2, the worst marksman always got the flamethrower. worst job, shit's heavy, you gotta get close etc) << oh no doubt. that's a rough job. like having a damn bomb on your back. next as bad is probably the radio guy.
mod6: (radio guy has antenne sticking up, easy target.)
mircea_popescu: iirc radio guy was favoritism spot, because you get to go into bunker / safer position / next to co
mod6: well, prolly each squad/platoon has one in the forward position, relaying stuff back to other radio guy next to co in bunker. but, ya.
asciilifeform: dunno re elsewhere, but in su army it was a mixed bag, co was expected to shoot radioman if the latter is at risk of capture (e.g., injured & down)
mircea_popescu: i dun think they did this on the allied side.
asciilifeform: possibly because did not much bother with field crypto there
mircea_popescu: mod6 i dunno that as late as vietnam they had that many forwards like that. generally even the artillery reporters were small squad with co machine gun 3-4 rifles etc
mod6: ah, yah perhaps.
mircea_popescu: (most of vietnam cinematic footage is one of these artillery reporter squads. works well for the needs of the camera.)
mod6: <+asciilifeform> dunno re elsewhere, but in su army it was a mixed bag, co was expected to shoot radioman if the latter is at risk of capture (e.g., injured & down) << did the su radio guys have all the otp's for the day there with him or what not?
mircea_popescu: i expect.
mircea_popescu: truth be told the anglos had this "crypto dun werk" outlook throughout.
asciilifeform: mod6: nah, they tended to use barbarisms where the man has a code in memory
mircea_popescu: no otp ?!
asciilifeform: incl. his 'morse fist'
mod6: i gotta dig this up
asciilifeform: when captured, would be made to 'funkspiel' with his characteristic style
asciilifeform: ergo had to be shot.
mod6: ooh.
mod6: so the 'morse fist' was a guys ability to send error free and 'style' of the transmission of the message
asciilifeform: iirc 'fist' is what engl.speaking folk called morse 'handwriting' in those times.
mod6: i see
mircea_popescu: mod6 you know how morse goes, every op has specific timings.
mircea_popescu: !!up Test
deedbot: Test voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: mircea_popescu: yah, that makes sense.
mircea_popescu: that strange feeling when bing returns trilema for img search for "check your privilege shitlord".
mircea_popescu: i had no fucking idea anyone actually uses bing.
asciilifeform: wasn't it made default in firefox when the latter was colonized?
mircea_popescu: o was it ?
asciilifeform: (it also silently replaced 'yahoo search' some years ago)
mircea_popescu: no that also still exists.
mircea_popescu: there's also, i kid you not, Microsoft MSN Search
mircea_popescu: i even get hits from excite, but i figure that's gotta be a joke.
mircea_popescu: oh and to round off the lulz, http://trilema.com/administrator/components/com_jnewsletter/includes/openflashchart/php-ofc-library/ofc_upload_image.php?name=magic.php and http://trilema.com/components/com_jnews/includes/openflashchart/php-ofc-library/ofc_upload_image.php?name=magic.php.pHp because ofcourse.
mod6: ah yes. i recall these.
mod6: i heard nz got hit hard again yesterday
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
mod6: ah, earthquake in nz ~ yesterday
mod6: people were talkin about it
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/v3wgy << in even other lulz
mircea_popescu: 7,8 huh. one of these days it's gonna blow up innit.
asciilifeform: 'The attacker just have to press and keep pressing the [Enter] key at the LUKS password prompt until a shell appears, which occurs after 70 seconds approx.'
mod6: maybe so
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: why are all ubuntus the same ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the money shot is : "dracut is ALSO vulnerable, like initramfs is". because no, none of this is accidental, not anymore than castrated hipster's support for hillary is accidental.
asciilifeform: at this point anyone with 2 neurons to rub together , i'd suppose, grasps this
mircea_popescu: the key point however, is that it's also not "directed", so to speak.
asciilifeform: is put in out of 'general principle'
mircea_popescu: they're not dumb because the evil witch of the west tells them to, and when she dies they'll all wake up from dumb like from a spell.
asciilifeform: and falls into half dozen or so rough taxanomic holes
mircea_popescu: no, they are dumb because they are dumb, like iron is ductile because it is ductile ; any possible identified witches are scapegoats
asciilifeform: 'break console auth', 'rot rng',...
asciilifeform: eh if farmer dies and cows escape into the desert, they will remain == as stupid as before, but ~undirectedly~
mircea_popescu: i suppose they are farmed, yes.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, bannon makes chief of staff.
mircea_popescu: bureaucracy deeply butthurt.
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ; chief ~strategist~. priebus will be chief of staff fwtw.
asciilifeform: dafuq sort of name is 'priebus'
asciilifeform: norwegian?
mircea_popescu: i have no idea.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, nigel farage is utterly furios that notwithstanding he's the only brit with a trump pass, nevertheless may & friends won't come kiss his pinky ring.
mircea_popescu: pretty lulzy.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's so funny how much can change in a mere coupla decades. from clinton's "boy, i wish i could say the same" to obama's "i solemnly promise & swear trump won't be elected".
mircea_popescu: i guess it makes sense one got impeached.
mircea_popescu: well... almost impeached.
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/vsMXn << not, as appearances might suggest, wholly unrelated: derps froth at the mouth that anyone might dare to play german conquest marches, 'I hope someone will inform their music authorities', 'I am usually very moderate about showcasing of the original information, but I don't think new performances should be encouraged!', etc.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> dafuq sort of name is 'priebus' << Lizard!
ben_vulpes: !!up vvande
deedbot: vvande voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: you can talk to deedbot in pm too, vvande
vvande: oh I see
vvande: !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6ihww/?raw=true
deedbot: C2F3ACF258CE9D436FCD93995F7496EC4F0FF004 registered as vvande.
vvande: OK, that seemed to work. :)
mircea_popescu: in other news, as trump prepares to repeal obamawarming, the libertard senate seems set to repeal godwin's law.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dun get it, some people somewhere protest... music ?
asciilifeform: protest 'unthinkable' dissent from the 'consensus' of the beetle-men who, it turns out, really won in '45.
asciilifeform: (the folx with souls, or equiv. -- mostly killed one another. leaving -- this.)
asciilifeform: and they hate, yes, even music, in so far as it pertains to the non-beetles, rather how proverbial vampire hates the crucifix
ben_vulpes is pleased that coors is now the republican "murkka beer"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's murkka beer ?
ben_vulpes: "america"
asciilifeform: the pisswater that is not even distinguishable in the piss tank from the input ?
ben_vulpes: well it's /fermented/ on the downstream side
ben_vulpes: but no, "coors" is the pisswater, "murkka" is the place.
asciilifeform: i have nfi what is the appeal.
asciilifeform: at least the rotgut from BingoBoingo's 'night train' article, is cheap road to complete catatonia
asciilifeform: (he might be interested to learn that very similar beverages existed in su)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Would not be surprised at all. These things find a way.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://agriculture.by/upload/News/144102_31-vino.jpg << they still exist in belorus. with marks like 'merry carousel'..
BingoBoingo: I doubt they will ever cease to exist.
asciilifeform: these typically were made by admixture of 3rd rate fruit juices (sometimes spoiled) and ethyl.
asciilifeform: ( naturally i did not live long enough to drink these, know of them mainly from memoirs of folks from past 2 generations )
BingoBoingo: Just like night train/thunderbird/et al. They are a societally necessary sort of thing.
BingoBoingo: !!up the_scourge
deedbot: the_scourge voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: the_scourge: What did you get pinched for?
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3CFFFB47C333728371427FE2CB20F1E5699D1AB4181C86C19BDC93D9CC580856 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 10360675149891496696743993074038515514679184692657560451481201750238139845648139005675108913997292011349770797364446313354371937302222251376246656792243397 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on
mircea_popescu: goood mornin' phuctor lol
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3CFFFB47C333728371427FE2CB20F1E5699D1AB4181C86C19BDC93D9CC580856 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 10360675149891496696743993074038515514679184692657560451481201750238139845648139005675108913997292011349770797364446313354371937302222251376246656792243397 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E398AB2D76701B47540512A265F39492F768F68C2ABFFAF708B52A5F1FCEA627 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 10360675149891496696743993074038515514679184692657560451481201750238139845648139005675108913997292011349770797364446313354371937302222251376246656792243397 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on
mircea_popescu: hm. repeated.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/theyre-not-progressive-theyre-just-lazy-a-practical-exercise/ << Trilema - They're not progressive, they're just lazy - a practical exercise
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still have nfi why deedbot repeats'em, the rss page itself, notice, never repeats.
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: mornin' mod6
mircea_popescu: must be some confusion
asciilifeform: i vaguely recall that there was a hypothesis, but unable to find it in the logz
mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone bothered to gather all these factored ssh keys, reconstruct their privkeys, and then try connect to the whole internet using it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought we went over this
asciilifeform: breaking these ssh keys doesn't get you in anywhere
mircea_popescu: how do you know this ?
asciilifeform: only lets you eavesdrop
mircea_popescu: again - how do you know this ?
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously, you can now mitm whoever tries to connect to compromised box. HOWEVER there's no rule that someone coouldn't have made one of these boxes admins on other boxes.
asciilifeform: aite, somewhere, there could be a maniac who configured his box for ssh ~login~ , and with same key as some such in phuctor.
mircea_popescu: could be ? my dear alf, i'm willing to bet there is, on the strength of experience to date.
Framedragger: can you even use an ssh server key as ssh client key (and yes i agree if it's easy to do, someone will have done it)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is ~possible~ to use 0000...0 as ssh key..
mircea_popescu: a key's a key, there's no "server key" as such.
mircea_popescu: ie, generate key on server, have it spit out the priv/pub pair, register it into another server, done.
Framedragger: i mean in practical terms, of course, theoretically, but as in, would a canonical ssh agent eat it up
asciilifeform: i presently know of no system that ships with remote-login-with-key-auth enabled by default. does not mean that there isn't such a thing.
mircea_popescu has this morning looked into cpanel, it would seem you can do this trivally.
Framedragger: well for one ssh client keys normally have an email/ID associated with them, not sure if ssh agent would like an ssh server key. in theory, yes, sure
Framedragger: hm. worth a try for sure.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger 1. open cpanel session 2. generate ssh key 3. export it 4. import it into another. see a connect to b.
Framedragger: okey dokey. point taken
mircea_popescu: now, whether anyone has actually done this who's also in our set is of course dubious
mircea_popescu: but i'm thinking maybe it went from "crack rsa" to "phuctor" level of dubiousness.
asciilifeform: this would be a slightly more interesting imho exercise if the popped boxes were not all routers/webcams/etc where no one hangs on shell
asciilifeform: though i will point out that i do not conclusively know this about ~all~ of them, only all of the ones that are still alive at the ip where they turned up in june...
mircea_popescu: more a case of "locate the maniacs" than anything.
mircea_popescu: i think people generally misunderstand just how fucking abundant insanity is
asciilifeform: btw quite a few of those boxen you can log into, right ~now~
asciilifeform: with default creds.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: it wasn't some sort of grand "oh we shall pwn boxen" as such.
asciilifeform: (the remainder - also can, with manufacturer's backdoor pw, which i simply do not happen to know)
mircea_popescu: though "admin" and "12345" usually carry the day
asciilifeform: admin/[blank] interestingly, most common on the current set.
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's better from an ux perspective.
mircea_popescu: also what customers have come to expect, what with http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567492 etc☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 02:09 asciilifeform: 'The attacker just have to press and keep pressing the [Enter] key at the LUKS password prompt until a shell appears, which occurs after 70 seconds approx.'
asciilifeform: btw everyone possibly already knows this, but bugmakers refer to nsa et al as 'customers'
asciilifeform: (and not, as naively one might expect, to their ~actual~ customers as such)
jurov: mircea_popescu: to actually connect, client keys must be cracked. asciilifeform: when can i expect the hopper to free for these?
mircea_popescu: jurov yes ?
jurov: i have the github pubkeys
mircea_popescu: o, those are still waiting ? i thought they were in already for some reason.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at hooker motel, http://68.media.tumblr.com/ff0a272b2abcbdcf9d79b7323f40a47a/tumblr_mupvdzpGOt1sdw9gyo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: jurov: i can slip'em in after the current batch of Framedragger keys is digested, a few wks from now. otherwise - april or so.
mircea_popescu: bejaysus, we actually have 6 months of fuel here ?!
asciilifeform: we do.
mircea_popescu: somehow i was under the impression we're just about running out
asciilifeform: jurov: if you have them in ready format, send'em over.
mircea_popescu: and so then what, jurov 's set is gonna add another what... two years ? more ?
asciilifeform: i have nfi how many he has
jurov: iirc 10millions. they're still in e,N,comment CSV
mircea_popescu: but basically we're at what, 200k/month or such ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: approx.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the feeding is the sole bottleneck.
mircea_popescu: jurov you got us covered for 2 years!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform any way this can be sped up though ?
asciilifeform: theoretically there are ways
asciilifeform: will need substantial work tho.
mircea_popescu: there's worse fates than a 2year phuctor fuel supply. (i guess.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you ever get a copy of jurov's keys though ?
asciilifeform: dun think so
asciilifeform: or wait
mircea_popescu: i thought he sent it
asciilifeform: i have something:
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-20#1469636☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-05-20 17:47 jurov: asciilifeform: github rsa keys: http://www.explo.yt/phathub-201506.csv.xz
asciilifeform: 5662db8716ddfa945e0b45103517eb681b32f7c2615af731ae0644737e92389122f8740e6f86201e61b96513bd2ace3301dd288c88f3e93bae46dd7594327dac phathub-201506.csv.xz
asciilifeform: aaaaha it.
asciilifeform: so yes.
mircea_popescu: cool then.
asciilifeform: there it is.
mircea_popescu: jurov sorry if this is frustratingly slow.
Framedragger: jurov: i have a trivial python script based on your openpgp-generator to convert arbitrary numbers of e,N,comment into pgp if interested (but you prolly have something of the same - just in case)
jurov: Should have converted them to gpg, as Framedragger did.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: jurov posted a quite working one earlier, i used it for the amd keys recently
asciilifeform: (and posted that version here also)
Framedragger: ah yeah i recall. i think my only modification is that it handles bulk amounts, but really nothing special
Framedragger: also, i may want to re-run the base ipv4 ssh server finder at some point, i'm sure i'll get some more keys :p
jurov: yea, they usually don't survive reinstalls
asciilifeform: Framedragger: this time, i recommend, with built-in port scan
Framedragger: (vc's cockbox vps don't care about no abuse complaintz.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: as in, scan additional ports, you mean?
asciilifeform: as in, if it serves up http or https on any port, i want a snapshot
Framedragger: or banner-grabber? i have all the banners still. (and no i haven't done anything with them, yet)
asciilifeform: if telnet - the greeting string
asciilifeform: and yes
Framedragger: ah, right on. yes, fair enough.
asciilifeform: (and if https -- the pubkey also!)
asciilifeform: because these, imho, ought to go next.
asciilifeform: why should henninger et al and their 'seekrit evidence' remain 'state of art'
Framedragger: aha, the way it'd work, it'd still scan only port 22 initially, because grabbing banners / doing stateful communication is much slower. doing the former is a matter of TCP SYN/ACK, with embedded 'cookies', no need for state
Framedragger: but the 2nd ssh-key-extractor stage can do the stuff you want, yes.
Framedragger: sounds good
Framedragger: aha yes, ssl certs should go into the oven, too.
asciilifeform: betcha even if this is slow, it is still faster than feeding'em into the db currently
asciilifeform: (they, as everyone probably already guessed, get db queried one-at-a-time. to do anything else would result in a 50x more complicated phuctor.)
asciilifeform: phuctor is a living illustration of the tradeoffs of 'muntzing'. it is ~100 % reliable, and (aside from the unicode turdolade) demonstrably bug-free. but this comes at a price.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger preferably sometime in 2019 lo;
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wut seekrit evidence ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they never, afaik, published one single factor.
asciilifeform: or the ip of one single popped box.
mircea_popescu: of course not. but i dun grok how it relates ?
asciilifeform: well, they -- supposedly -- did phuctor-with-ssl
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i have this idea of doing focused not-for-coal-mines work this summer (some time after May) lol. so maybe even 2017!!1
asciilifeform: and then wrote fancy paper with charts etc. but 0 actual hard evidence
mircea_popescu: except a) they didn't and b) we did and c) they published nothing and d) we published both ips and factors ?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: they published (claimed) tally, charts, 'discussion'
asciilifeform: as these folx tend to.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the idea being that we're overflowing data to process, after your set ends up in spring jurov's goes in and may take a year+
Framedragger: ahh, that's what you mean. yeah k lol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform straight to http://trilema.com/2016/theyre-not-progressive-theyre-just-lazy-a-practical-exercise/
Framedragger: well, it is nice to have data.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: in all fairness, i will likely rewrite it again before 2 yrs . seems to have become a yearly chore.
mircea_popescu: you should see the level this kabuki has achieved. they actually post multiple imagemagick generated jpegs. which are "proof"
Framedragger: could it be that half of them are bots, mircea_popescu? can't imagine them being able to use imagemagick for the life of me
mircea_popescu: http://c2n.me/3EoP61W.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoP6jH.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoP6Cw.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoP7Op.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoP8qD.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoP9cQ.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoP9Mv.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoPag1.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoPaE7.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoPbk7.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoPbUH.jpg http://c2n.me/3EoPciS.jpg << like so.
mircea_popescu: this proves something
asciilifeform: and if we really get mircea_popescu's botnet system, perhaps phuctor can finally get off the elephant box and onto 1024 chickens..
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i expect they have a fully scripted environment cobbled together out of visual basic, httpfox and what have you
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lemon market, there.
Framedragger: well, good for the skriptkiddies then. a spammy-scripty strategy is a strategy nonetheless.
asciilifeform: and l0l!!1 is THIS why i'm getting arsebook hits on dulap..?
Framedragger: except for the whole "wasting time of actual people" side of things..
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the problem they face is that as they cannibalized language itself they're now stuck in a very lost world without any possibility of out of band
mircea_popescu: the ancient cobbler apprentice who did a bad job had two out of band systems, his master's crop and his master's words, to shake him out of biological amoebasty.
mircea_popescu: but these kids, who cobble not sandals but the very words... they're stuck in monoband world. and i honestly see no possible solution.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes.
Framedragger: i see what you mean. now it's a closed bubble/system for them, sort of...
asciilifeform: ^C^C^C^C^C^C^C
mircea_popescu: anyway. i don't think they wasted my time nor do i think myself the victim. fact is i can turn them into value if i so decide, much like the beekeeper can make candles and honeycomb if he wants. and if i don't want - i just don't make a fiverr account. not like they can do anything whatsoever, they can't even elect hillary.
asciilifeform: reminds me, more than anything, of that time, half decade ago now, that i bought some 'google ads' for my robot control product
asciilifeform: (story is in the logz)
mircea_popescu: but they concerned with the proposition of alf the bee-dog's bees, ie these things... they've a serious problem.
asciilifeform: at this point i cannot think of what these 'bees' might be good for, they are not even bees, but roaches, there is no roach candle wax afaik.
asciilifeform: even solving spam 'captcha' is better with machine.
mircea_popescu: well, you can kill them elaborately for the public amusement...
asciilifeform: i picture that even this gets old. (though i will still buy ticket!)
mircea_popescu: well, as appetite strikes. avocado never got old.
asciilifeform: speaking of public amusement, word is that ~all~ 3,000 or so obummer 'staffers' are quitting. and now being replaced.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger re automation angle - i dunno, i suppose varying amounts of elbow grease could be employed, entirely as a mechanical gearbox, in lieu of actual automation. just it doesn't fit in my head - the same people who wouldn't read ten words would then go through the motions, orders of magnitude more complex, of making screenshots etc ?
asciilifeform: (that forest of office towers around wh is full of these, traditionally)
mircea_popescu: not that it's out and out impossible, after all the bee will do what it knows in preference of all otehr deeds.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "quitting" is how they'd like it to be called.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if that blurring is not imagemagick'd in place, then how was it obtained ? that sorta thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as was said about hruschev, 'его ушли'
asciilifeform: 'he was quitted'
mircea_popescu: aha lol
mircea_popescu: in romanian - fu uschit
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, i guess can't be certain. doesn't really fit for sure..
mircea_popescu: the very notion of "screenshot as proof" is suspect and to my mind inseparable from http://trilema.com/2014/o-hai-let-me-verify-your-identity/
asciilifeform: promisetronic 'verifications' are an eternal plague among the stupid. consider even the timestamp in gpg (to make the phuctor sig from last night's qntra, i used ordinary gpg 1.4, with patch). what business does a userland proggy have asking for the wall clock time without permission? if i want it to have a time, i will pipe 'date' to it...
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: not, on the other hand, to deny that there in fact exists this subculture dedicated to the screenshot as quotation mechanism, or that tech support teams regularly see terrabytes of crap each month, clogging the tubes for no conceivable reason. it has to do with a failure of literacy, a certain laziness of the mind that thinks in symbols (which is what the screenshot is).as newman put it, "to see things as they are, to go righ
mircea_popescu: t to the point, to disentangle a skein of thought, to detect what is sophistical, and to discard what is irrelevant."
asciilifeform: also has to do with ubiquitously broken software (why the fuck is it possible for www site's scripts to MODIFY THE CLIPBOARD??)
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure that's javascript.
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: but that is not answer
mircea_popescu: hey, if you run js you're basically outsourcing root.
asciilifeform: if you plug in the nic, you're 'outsourcing root', eh.
mircea_popescu: but javascript is specifically dedicated to doing dumb shit like "i'll pretend to be you - and fill the clipboard"
mircea_popescu: that's what it DOES.
asciilifeform: and break the 'back' button, etc.
asciilifeform: draw 'popup' on screen straight through supposed 'popup filter'
asciilifeform: and the like.
mircea_popescu: well, in fairness the back button thing is because browsers are shit more than anything. there's a thousand ways to break it, including by introducing an expiring page in the stack etc.
mircea_popescu: ie, the back button itself is promisetronic as implemented by browsers. "almost like lisp!"
asciilifeform: whole thing is a crock of shit, for quite fundamental reasons -- let teenage cocklets design infrastructure, it will look like www stack every time.
asciilifeform: and ever power switch, on every box i've had since my 'cyrix' 486-dx, was promisetronic.
asciilifeform: (incidentally -- it was mandated, by microshit. purely as show of force.)
mircea_popescu: to get back to the pguctor feeding briefly - you mean "one at a time" as in insert into whatever values () as opposed to insert into whatever values (),(),() ?
asciilifeform: as in, the thing gets hashed, and db gets queried for the hash, and for the fp (these are two separate and not wholly overlapping ways to index pgp keys) to see if we already have either
asciilifeform: then inserted correctly.
mircea_popescu: ah. myeah.
mircea_popescu: what db is it, progres ?
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: postg.
asciilifeform: bog-standard.
mircea_popescu: i think some magic could be had where you put all the new items into a new table then merge the two tables where hashes don't match.
mircea_popescu: but i am no db expert.
asciilifeform: this is what i meant when said 'theoretically - yes'
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/OulNa << can't say that herr soros is spent quite yet!111 they are marching out ~high school~ pupils to 'protest' nao.
asciilifeform: (for non-u.s. folk: this is not a thing normally permitted)
asciilifeform: 'About 800 Montgomery Blair High School students attended the rally at the stadium, and most returned to class afterward, Montgomery County Public Schools spokeswoman Gboyinde Onijala said.'
mircea_popescu: gbo who ?!
asciilifeform: aha, i also dropped jaw
mircea_popescu: what happened to "you're not willing to follow the rules, you can't take public office" ?
asciilifeform: linked ~solely for this detail.
asciilifeform: fdr.
asciilifeform: lincoln. et al.
mircea_popescu: "It hurt me inside knowing somebody from outside our race is talking bad about us," said Rodriguez, carrying a sign reading, "Brown and Proud."
pete_dushenski: brown race ? how racist.
mircea_popescu: kinda the point of the whole "special" bullshit. everything the anal child does is directed towards the same protection of his childhood, and in this particular case - if he's special enough then you can't "say bad things" because are outside ; and if you're not outside he'll just... specialize more.
pete_dushenski: like whole #rapemelania thing, libertards are now outting themselves as the biggest racists/sexists/bigots around, post-trump
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/rTmsK << "where is the outrage??!"
pete_dushenski: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
mircea_popescu: o hey, apparently twitter DOESN'T have you know, guidelines etc anymore.
pete_dushenski: gotta appeal to any and all possible suitors now that it's turning tricks on the corner for dimes. go jack!
mircea_popescu: who's jack ?
pete_dushenski: dorsey. twitter founder.
mircea_popescu: ah ok.
mircea_popescu: lol chris rock dun give a shit, he's promoting some new movie and big titty tuesday
pete_dushenski: he was kicked out / sold out when twitter was nearing peak valuation then brought back to 'save' co. meanwhile he shoulda stayed on the beach sipping margaritas because he failed miserably to 'pull a steve'
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm sure they're paying him to be there.
BingoBoingo: Sure but they are porlly paying him with Inequity!
mircea_popescu: eh. maybe they're paying him in fresh tail. so he made up some scam, sold it to some suckers for $$$, then they want him to come back and be worshipped by all the interns ? sure, why not.
mircea_popescu: maybe some of 'em want to go away for a weekend, you don't know till you ask amirite.
BingoBoingo: Nah, it's Inequity. See Jack, he is in Tweaven and you are banned.
pete_dushenski: "At Twitter, he didn't collect a salary or stock options last year and only received personal and residential security costs totaling $68,506." << dorsey's 2015 figures
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: i'm telling you, tail.
asciilifeform: there are other untaxable unsalaries, unoptions, e.g., jet rides, etc.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck would want stock options on twitter.
asciilifeform: nobody, so paid in mig rides and cuntjuice
BingoBoingo: Well, as Elliot pointed out Tail is also an Inequity
mircea_popescu: they're prolly too ethnic for elliot.
BingoBoingo: And Elliot is too ethnic for them.
BingoBoingo: So unfair.
BingoBoingo: Such a valuable inequity.
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#349 << ohmygerd how i hate this shit. it ends with "to quote text in screenshot of screenshot, i'll make a screenshot". tumblr at least retains/-ed the concept of a "quote as a block of text". wouldn't be surprised if not for long.
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [17:08:07] <mircea_popescu> not, on the other hand, to deny that there in fact exists this subculture dedicated to the screenshot as quotation mechanism, or that tech support teams regularly see terrabytes of crap each month, clogging the tubes for no conceivable reason. it has to do with a failure of literacy, a certain laziness of the mind that thinks in symbols (which is
scriba: what the screenshot is).as newman put it, "to see things as they are, to go righ
mircea_popescu: myeah. rahter insufferable aren't they.
Framedragger: this reminds of james mickens' rants on 'mobile' and 'modern web', e.g. (JS - i've linked to it once iirc, under the bdsm social board discussion): http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/towashitallaway.pdf (html: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/towashitallaway.html - for logs)
Framedragger: (and no, the irony of linking to pdf which talks about stupid frontend formats is not lost on me... :( )
asciilifeform: or to html ver that is missing one word in 5 from original...
asciilifeform: (which is a shame, this is a great piece imho)
asciilifeform: the one problem, shared with every other piece like this that i know of, is that it omits the obvious cure, which is not simply to thermonuke the crud, but to kill the horse it rode in on, and the rider, and to burn the field that it fed on, and salt it.
asciilifeform: and bury long-lived reactor waste there, for good measure.
asciilifeform: worked for netscape ? partied with jwz ? sat on itu standards committee ? there is a pick at butugychag with yer name on it.
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/crjex/?raw=true << ascii paste seems to grab the txt correctly, oddly enough.
Framedragger: ah, that's nice.
Framedragger: (and yes, agree.)
asciilifeform: which is why i'm not terribly thrilled with strategic retreats like 'let's keep dns but with our root' etc.
Framedragger: (in fairness, the html sometimes mangles two words together, omitting a space, or somesuch. not many words are lost. but still, shame.)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: some months ago i restored a vintage keyboard, with capacitative matrix (contactless) which needed new controller and analogue calibration etc. it was interesting learning experience in that i never understood how ~motherfucking reliable~ an ordinary keyboard must be before it feels usable.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do note that mircea_popescu's idea of keeping dns is more akin to a general WoT-enforced hashtable, update-able via (in principle) gossipd-compatible pgprams, and (for the time being) transportable over dns/udp. the latter so that dns clients can make use of it.
asciilifeform: an error of 500 ppm or so is already quite painful, palpably
asciilifeform: which is to say, one or two 'wtf, i pressed / and got F15' every day
Framedragger: asciilifeform: which is, i think, not a complete retreat, so to speak
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is retreat in that it keeps 10,000,001 lines of C written by teenagers
asciilifeform: (and transport link where nsa can flip any bit or drop any packet with impunity etc)
asciilifeform: i will confess, that i judge any such effort first of all by one metric -- how many lines of jwz c code it EXTIRPATES
asciilifeform: burn, with hot irons.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/google-pull-adsense-from-news-content-it-doesnt-like/ << Qntra - Google Pull Adsense From News Content It Doesn't Like
asciilifeform: (incidentally, if something runs ~solely~ on top of a system written in jwzc, it is to be counted as jwzc code, every line. just as every penny spent by an embezzler from his embezzled funds counts as mis-spent.)
asciilifeform: hence js, etc., all same.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: "it was interesting learning experience in that i never understood how ~motherfucking reliable~ an ordinary keyboard must be before it feels usable." very interesting! nice project. (ppm == pixels per meter?)
asciilifeform: parts per million
Framedragger: ah! k
Framedragger: right, both precision and accuracy required (any error rate cripples the UX, etc.)
asciilifeform: earlier this year, i wanted to fit symmetric cipher into trb, and get rid of 'blackholing' etc. but mircea_popescu correctly pointed out that it is the Wrong Thing to cement a pseudoscientific abortion like AES (or ANY OTHER known symmetric cipher!) into place
asciilifeform: and i still agree.
asciilifeform: and also agree re dns.
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#440 << sure, i guess. (note though that this effort would get rid of dns server code, though. and it does not obstruct one from later patching dns client code / rewriting a much more simplistic name query client.)
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [18:22:14] <asciilifeform> Framedragger: it is retreat in that it keeps 10,000,001 lines of C written by teenagers
asciilifeform: when you make use of something, successfully, you inevitably come to rely on it. this is a cost. i am still paying the cost for having used a python library in 2013.
trinque: lel
Framedragger: re. plaintext for all NSAs to read, sure, there's that. goes against gossipd's "no free bits for the unauthenticated" i guess. but again, this can be wrapped in gossipd later.
trinque: describe "wrapped in gossipd" ?
trinque: one central table of all things seems entirely anti-gossipd
asciilifeform: Framedragger: worse than this, it is even difficult to quantity the cost of perpetuating the IDEA of a 'block cipher' as being A THING
Framedragger: trinque: not that part. the transport part - name query/response, as well as name updates.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you cannot get rid of the idiocy of 10,000,001 lines of jwzola by 'wrapping' in anything
trinque: Framedragger: name of what
Framedragger: trinque: but yes, the central table thing remains
asciilifeform: 'wrapping' is why software is garbage
asciilifeform: all of it
asciilifeform: this whole notion. that you can 'wrap' stupidity in something and hide it away.
Framedragger: trinque: i meant as a generic string - trying to avoid the term 'domain' as the latter is not accurate..
trinque: not what I'm asking
trinque: I call that guy "shithead" and you call him "sir"
trinque: so what?
trinque: and who is right?
Framedragger: trinque: right, this is cf. gossipd's "everyone has their own a la hosts file, and does with it what they like". is that what you meant?
trinque is not opposed to doing something with DNS while we still must use it
asciilifeform: central namespaces are a dumb idea. i regard it as my duty to put this on record.
trinque: just that it does *not* map sanely to gossiptronics
Framedragger: i see what you mean.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567796 << eh get out, nothing of that kind.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:19 asciilifeform: which is why i'm not terribly thrilled with strategic retreats like 'let's keep dns but with our root' etc.
Framedragger: i don't have a strong opinion, i wonder what mircea_popescu thinks. i guess the answer would also focus on the "while we still must use it" aspect
trinque: sure, we have websites neh?
Framedragger: "allegedly"
Framedragger: so, yeah. and i'm no longer convinced it would redundant, in the sense that when gossipd cometh, one must throweth the 'general name system' away
Framedragger: there could be WoT members maintaining their own namespaces that others may want to peruse, etc.
Framedragger: but i speculate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keeps my foot. what the hell does it keep ?
asciilifeform: keeps the infrastructure - the clients, servers.
mircea_popescu: go find one line of code currently involved in dns in any capacity that you can prove is going to remain there.
mircea_popescu: ugh. no it doesn't.
mircea_popescu: that's the whole discussion re "delgation" in the comments.
trinque: it's kinda "I will not take this land until it is flying my flag already"
asciilifeform: waaaiwat, why would you keep the unauthenticable crock of shit made of 10,001 ITU idiocies if you ~weren't~ gonna keep the code ?!
mircea_popescu: there's no discussion re any of that. who said "unauthenticable" ?
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand, thread was about mircea_popescu's idea of recycling traditional dns, but using own root
mircea_popescu: you misunderstand.
Framedragger: personally i don't see why there could not be a GNS which would be separate from commitments to specific transport standards. have a table, have a transport layer, swap the layer later. i may be naive in regards to the "swap" step, i guess... :/
asciilifeform: (incidentally, dns was cleverly designed by nato lackeys ~not to be~ cryptoencapsulable. for instance, it demands 512byte udp packet. go and wrap that in ANYTHING and see how fragments.)
asciilifeform: so now you gotta replace all extant hardware.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567823 << every system you ever use will have a dictionary ; and every system you ever used in the past had a dictionary. this is unavoidable. you prefer one over another, dictionaries, systems, that's your problem. but if you read the linked rfc - there's parts they get right, right before the parts they fuck up that i underlined in red.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:35 trinque: one central table of all things seems entirely anti-gossipd
mircea_popescu: you can't have a system without a dictionary.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i thought so too, but basically mircea_popescu's idea would dispatch of the whole 'dns zone' concept. there would be no 'domain' per se. dns clients could still query 'loper-os', but the server would be a simple table, with no understanding of zones or significance of "."
asciilifeform: Framedragger: abstraction layering doesn't work. it is the great lie of the software age.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fact that you can query dns server over current dns protocol and get current response does NOT create an obligation on your to do so.
mircea_popescu: feel free to query it over gossipd, or over whatever else.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: fact is, central table of anything at all, is a throne, i simply do not see the 'win' from retaining the throne.
mircea_popescu: so how do you propose to have a lisp ?
asciilifeform: same way i have long division.
mircea_popescu: be explicit. metaphora doesn't belong here.
trinque: I would expect that if I am on gossipnet and I want loper-os, I ask my friends if they have a key which they call loper-os
asciilifeform: then refine specifically what means 'a lisp' here
mircea_popescu: if there's nowhere to lookup the "(" how will you have a lisp ? because "we all know" ? and if we don't know how do we find out ?
mircea_popescu: out of band dns-over-phone is not an improvement. over anything.
mircea_popescu: trinque and if you want to know what deedbot contains, also ask friends ?
asciilifeform: and here we are speaking non-standardized commercial pidgin from long-dead empire, and it mostly worx..
mircea_popescu: you ask your friends what they think ; not what the world is.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: how about: make a proof of concept name system, use it instead of current dns root server set for now, later enable every gossipd user to run their own instance of name system if they prefer the fully-decentralized-dictionary path; the initial PoC will still have been useful.
Framedragger: i guess counterpoint would be http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#456
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [18:34:31] <asciilifeform> when you make use of something, successfully, you inevitably come to rely on it. this is a cost. i am still paying the cost for having used a python library in 2013.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "mostly" ie, "until mp requires a definition, then it all breaks down"
trinque: mircea_popescu: no. once I know a key I can interact with deedbot if I can make it there over gossipd peerings
mircea_popescu: trinque s/deedbot/dns/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: anything pushed outside of its working envelope - breaks.
asciilifeform: to go upstack, i see nothing wrong with 'we all agree on how arithmetic works, do business with keys, sex -- with people'
mircea_popescu: "trilema.com is according to mp. if you believe mp - then there you go". that's a dns record.
mircea_popescu: even now. they try to pretend otherwise. that pretense has to have some light shed on it.
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform suffered with this problem in '10, and even put the notes up on www ( http://kyristor.com ) then concluded that it was braindamaged waste of time
asciilifeform: to each -- his own name table.
mircea_popescu: you will have to share some portions of the symbol tables.
mircea_popescu: this is inescapable.
mircea_popescu: once it's inescapable - it'll have to be implemented.
asciilifeform: so you standardize the asking. it is really the basic wot operation
mircea_popescu: we call this "dns" for historical reasons. but relations to the imperial braindamaged implementation are spurious.
asciilifeform: does key '1F......BC' merit name of 'hero' or 'sc4mz0r', etc
mircea_popescu: you can't standardize "the asking" ebcause the asking is made out of symbols which have to be meaningful.
asciilifeform: so nail down the minimal 'ask'.
asciilifeform: instead of palace economy with 1 table of names.
mircea_popescu: really, read this rfc thing. it isn't long. where the fuck is it.
trinque: it is not necessarily that there cannot be multiple tables, but perhaps that one must win
asciilifeform: (see link, i narrowly missed drawing wot and whole shebang, through sheer thick-headedness )
asciilifeform: trinque: what, in your mind, does 'win' look like ?
asciilifeform: if it looks like usg dns, you have lost. definitionally.
trinque: republican structure of meaning means there is this nexus of hierarchy and debate out of which is emitted *the truth*
asciilifeform: because such a net isn't worth using.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-14#1567188☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-14 19:37 mircea_popescu: and, of course, 2000s vintage imperial lulz https://archive.is/g9O6H
mircea_popescu: trinque the words you use must have meanings. even if they have the most peculiar of meanings such as nigger = bureaucrat or jew = us agitprop agent ; nevertheless they must be given. somewhere.
Framedragger: "A0 can be implemented by regarding an authority's PGP public key as being its public routing address!" << nice kademlia and/or gossipd vibes
trinque: mircea_popescu: aha I can see it.
mircea_popescu: yes, it works fine in context, yes context frames needn't even map to identities ; nevertheless - you will have to have shared symbol tables.
asciilifeform: trinque: there is 'nexus of hierarchy' where we, e.g., study writings of mircea_popescu because they make sense and worth respect. and there is the other kind of hierarchy, where prb makes dns query using usg.glibc and internic root server is hardbaked into the code.
asciilifeform: and amd bakes magic key into mask rom.
trinque: so then the solution must come of "we who matter have connected to node X for the table" and could do otherwise, but don't
trinque: as we could rate X or not
mircea_popescu: quite so.
mircea_popescu: the fact that my definitions of imperial terminology prevail over the empire's own definition has nothing to do with the fact that before such a prevailing can take place, those definitions must actually exist and be given.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's rather true. real vs conventional hierarchy. there's these girls who are slaves ; and then there's these poor but ambitious girls who wish to be slaves. all that pretense jazz.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567838 << in point of fact we don't must use it, i've been happy with local name table for what, half a year ? not so much a matter of this as - it's there. might as well infect and "ruin" it for teh imperial idjits.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:37 trinque is not opposed to doing something with DNS while we still must use it
asciilifeform: y'know, usg.dns queries outsourced to archive.is box is still dns..
mircea_popescu: that's not how it works. i got this local key-data store ; the box can't even connect via dns port.
asciilifeform: just like orthodox j0000z still turn on lights, run lifts, on shabbat
asciilifeform: even if not with own hands.
mircea_popescu: and while it pretends otherwise, it has nfi what . means and would just as happily resolve "illegal" domaions.
Framedragger: "nexus of hierarchy" connects for me (maybe on some superficial level only) to kyristor's "The only questions A0 is qualified to answer are those for which disputes can be settled entirely through majority vote of the entire DHT network" - where the dht network
Framedragger: could be a set of particular (and particular only) peers. in any case, there must be a shared understanding among the users/elite as to how to proceed in face of naming conflicts.
Framedragger: is my (naive probably) understanding.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: note that this was the laughable piece, 'majority votes', i had nfi how to cut the knot of sybil etc.
Framedragger: aha.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: presumed that 'nodes' would be mappable to people who knew one another in the flesh, invariably.
asciilifeform: (a la fidonet)
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would any of this matter ? in a discussion of "that guy" we may either load the table where he is written "shithead" or "sir", but in either case we gotta load a table for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: (at any rate, i suspect that everyone here has a similar set of ~useless notes from last decade)
mircea_popescu: i do not.
mircea_popescu: i never bothered with ANY of this shit until bitcoin.
asciilifeform: didntcha have a reddit-like thingie with wots etc ?
asciilifeform: 'sinn feinn' or what was it
mircea_popescu: no pgp involved for instance. but sure, i guess.
mircea_popescu: "fain"
asciilifeform: aaah
mircea_popescu: means "cool" in dialect transylvanian romanian.
asciilifeform: possibly there is another way to cut the namespace thing. question is 'does this hierarchical postulate increase or decrease buluceala ?'
asciilifeform: buluceala, i will posit, is a Bad Thing, like car wrecks on public thoroughfare, or resistive loss in electric lines.
mircea_popescu: to get back to the fidonet/various attempts to do independent dns etc - the very naive "symbol context" = X, be x "an identity" or whatever is a liability. you gotta just let the context be its own thing.
Framedragger: i still have a reserved name ('indra', as in reflexive "indra's net" / indrajāla) for my mega decentralized permanent content concept, baked when i was maybe 18 yo lol. in fairness, "indra's net" is a l33t name that i hope i will use some time.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would say the gns as discussed on trilema drastically reduces it.
mircea_popescu: (note that for the needs of this discussion - i know because grandfather told me is a nec plus ultram of buluceala. it's how people know the earth is flat.)
asciilifeform: how about when coca cola shows up with tank division after pepsicola registers 'coke.com' ?
asciilifeform: also less buluceala ?
mircea_popescu: we're discussing cognition here not fizz.
asciilifeform: if i knew how to separate cognition and fizz, i'd be dictating terms to republic of california from dirigible fleet.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing wrong for pepsicola and his friends to discuss pepsicola by "coke.com" in their own context, and CERTAINLY coca-cola doesn't have nor can aquire some mechanism to prevent his.
asciilifeform: in global namespace a la dns -- they gotta have tank battle
mircea_popescu: if tomorrow i wanna call barack obama hussein bahamas, i'll call him that and he can cry me a river over it.
mircea_popescu: similarly fatties, gender-confuzeleds and any other special or specifiable interest group.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform alternatively they could you know, just not credit THAT root and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: i for instance don't credit the english-online-dictionaries opinions as to the meaning of english words.
mircea_popescu: life hasn't ended, the sun still rises, trilema clearly benefits.
asciilifeform: so now you have 10,000,001 'roots', which inevitably will happen when bahama throne falls, why not arrive at that situation ~deliberately~, rather than like (to steal from old mircea_popescu piece!) 'like teenage cowsie falls pregnant, willy-nilly'
mircea_popescu: for the same reason "pua" is a horrible dating strategy.
mircea_popescu: it's not deliberate in any useful sense, because some outcomes are not deliberable.
mircea_popescu: (yes you can rape the woman instead, which is in this sense deliberate, but i daresay not the same thing)
asciilifeform: building a throne hall when you know that the stable situation really consists of 10,001 margraves, imho is mistake.
mircea_popescu: why ? the other margaves gotta copy SOMETHING.
mircea_popescu: and who said they get to be margraves in the first place ?
mircea_popescu: CAN THEY even build a hall convincingly ?
Framedragger: so the notion of a local symbol frame/context will be retained inevitably, is that what you're saying mircea_popescu? (in which case i'd add that gns-the-implementation could even probably be used - on each interested user's machine - as a local name system. etc.)
Framedragger: however, an agreed-by-everyone-who-matters symbol context would still be needed. (sorry if interrupting, trying to clarify for my own education.)
asciilifeform favours of keeping the set of 'everyone who matters must agree on this' as small as possible (but not smaller).
Framedragger: i guess that's a given assumption in #trilema
asciilifeform bbl
mircea_popescu: everyone-who-matters is a nonsensical reference point here.
mircea_popescu: everyone-who-participates-in-this-conversation is the reference point. evidently, if we are talking about uh i dunno, star trek, the names have to be known and shared. spock can't be the woman with the nice ass. how does one join this conversation ? there's two options - either the usian school of "don't loo kit up - guess, fropm "context", what "it could be" or else - look it up damned it. to look it up, it has to be looked
mircea_popescu: up SOMEWHERE. that's the gns.
mircea_popescu: the imperial idiots implemented this as dns, which is stupid and braindamaged, but the implementation being flawed doesn't remove the fundamental reasons, which is why i say - read that damned rfc, the things i didn't mock are actually correct.
Framedragger: right. how would the process of resolving conflicts in gns look like, though? (i'm just curious, i.e. question is well-intentioned, not troll-y)
mircea_popescu: and from thence it all progresses - no, the place to look up needn't be "one across all the internet", because "otherwise postel thinks it'd be chaos".
mircea_popescu: what postel thinks'd be chaos, much like what jwz thinks'd be chaos, much like clinton or whoever other of these niggers and jews thinks to be "chnaos" is actually human life.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what conflicts ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i guess in your view, perhaps no viable conflicts would arise in gns? say, two owners of two distinct pgp keys claiming ownership of "apple.com". some kind of due process is to take place, presumably
mircea_popescu: no dude, when apple.com was registgered it was registered to a key.
mircea_popescu: what conflicts ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima go to buy chocolate and do things, so bbl we can continue.,
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i (or someone more credible, or whoever) registers "trilema.com" under their own leigt key. what nao?
Framedragger: will need to change places in a few min, too.
Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
Framedragger: but then already it is not as simplistic as "whoever owns the key", no?
Framedragger: also, http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#622 << http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-13#1566745 but this may be an issue in semantics/definitions only, i suppose.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-13 17:38 mircea_popescu: Framedragger note that i don't particularly see the value in restrictioning anything. in principle anyone should be able to register a domain for his bitcent - even if he puts no gpg key in there. he just won't be able to admin it, big whoop./
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [19:26:43] <mircea_popescu> no dude, when apple.com was registgered it was registered to a key.
Framedragger bbl, too
pete_dushenski: mod6: cheers :D pretty stoked to be one of the contest winrars, though /me also wonders whether saxes or yugos caught BingoBoing's fancy.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567990 << ethereum also 'handled claims of the elite privately'.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 19:30 Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
asciilifeform: it's a fundamentally zimbabwetronic thing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557576 << see also.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 00:48 mircea_popescu: experience shows it's perfectly fine to have a philosopher king, however utterly suicidal to have a philosopher king's throne. bolt is fine, nut will kill you.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: The one that didn't suck got the prize so no saxes.
BingoBoingo: In every case of multiple submissions attached to the same btc address there was a joke that was great and a lesser joke.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/sec-chair-mary-jo-white-leads-exodus-of-unexpired-appointees-ahead-of-trumpreich/ << Qntra - SEC Chair Mary Jo White Leads Exodus Of Unexpired Appointees Ahead Of Trumpreich
ben_vulpes: > charmyn
ben_vulpes: cute
ben_vulpes: also funny
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: re: the "ownership" of trilema, i'd like to know who you suspect would even try to register trilema.com
ben_vulpes: good lols, yes, but the identity attached to the registration action is going to have some splainin to do
ben_vulpes: otherwise what's wrong with first-come first served?
mats: no shortage of trolls in here
trinque: ben_vulpes: there's one important distinction here. the gns has a WoT identity running it.
ben_vulpes: mhm?
trinque: who needs blanket policy when he's free to choose and I'm free to negrate him?
ben_vulpes: "nation of men"?
trinque: aha
trinque: he issues trilema to mp because mp will thump him otherwise
trinque: and if he's unfair to elliot, grand.
ben_vulpes: mhm.
ben_vulpes: i for one think that names should be mined.
ben_vulpes: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557513☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 00:28 ben_vulpes: the infinite to bitcoin's finite, if you will.
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=5694