asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom lulz, https://archive.is/43EIJ >> 'Amid mounting public pressure to address Jones' hate speech, Apple's Tim Cook and Eddy Cue met over the weekend and decided to pull five of Jones' podcasts from their platform'... << 'по просьбе трудящихся'(tm)(r) !☟︎
asciilifeform: 'Hours after Apple announced its move, Mark Zuckerberg and his team at Facebook made the decision to pull four of Jones' pages' etc.
phf: oh this is beautiful, the new "registered only" restriction on channels means that unless your bouncer auto identifies, you get kicked off the channel☟︎
phf: ave1: i've updated zfp with regrind and the latest zfp_3_platform
asciilifeform: interestingly, #asciilifeform still spam-free despite no +r , evidently the spam folx are using a hardcoded list of chans that dun include it yet
asciilifeform: phf: what were the inputs for the regrind ? seems like i missed something on ave1's www
phf: asciilifeform: i saw it, i'm pointing out that this addition breaks things. you have to make sure that every single client plays along with freenode's defective ident system, otherwise you get breaks in logs, etc. e.g. phf bouncer is used as a fallback for logs, to ensure continuity, where the fact that the bouncer would come back naively (i.e. without trying to negotiate with nickserv) was a feature☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: i dun get it, my bouncer worx ( i.e. the user fleanode sees, is registered )
phf: asciilifeform: you bouncer autoidentifies with fleanode then
phf: but that doesn't always work (for fundamental reasons of non-synchronized protocol), so i have it entirely disabled on mine. i'll add it back, but there's going to be an event X sometime in the feature, where both bot and bouncer failed to come back, resulting in log break. with previous configuration that was less likely
asciilifeform: prolly the Right Thing would be to have the actual logtrons ( phf's, ben_vulpes's , Framedragger's if he were still alive , etc ) sync to one another as fallback☟︎
asciilifeform: i suspect that fleanode will only get moar broken as time marches on, never less.
phf: nah, makes no difference in this particular situation. you want your thing to come back by any means necessary to continue witnessing. as of now "coming back" is a much more complicated process
asciilifeform: how does it make no diff ? if the logtrons were synced, then if even 1 is alive, the continuity is maintained
phf: asciilifeform: for the scenario i'm describing it makes no difference
phf: yes, for the general reliability it's an improvement.
phf: in the simplest case joining a channel is a send-only process. can theoretically fully ignore what the server is saying and still get a successful join. not so when you have to negotiate with nickserv (at the very least need to time it right, so that you send you privmsg after the connection has been established, which is almost entirely "organic" process)
phf: so +r drops the reliability of all logtrons☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: have you found that actual gap already happened somewhere ? ( if it did -- i missed )
asciilifeform: phf: i mean, this is a 'hole in the boat bottom'-level item, so imho oughta show if you find.
phf: well, i've seen lines missing during netsplits, which i suppose is not this critical. i suspect ben_vulpes's logbot doesn't have a fallback mechanism, so when it drops there's the reconnect window, which i suspect i could find one or two with missing one or two lines. ben_vulpes will have to speak for himself though.
asciilifeform: would be handy if the 2 logtrons could at least output raw data that one could diff in cmdline
phf: this follows ye old kako format, in fact the pre-trilema files are kako's
asciilifeform: i expect there'll be spots where a thing is 1 or 2 places out of order ( fleanode does not reliably preserve same-millisecond ordering iirc ) but aside from that oughta be diffable afaik
phf: and things become tricky when bot gets kicked off for whatever reason
phf: i mean to do reliable logging you need to track the whois "on server", and spawn 2 bots per server, which then all negotiate a single consensus message to promote to canonical "this is what was said"☟︎
asciilifeform: would prolly also need logic to force the 2 to connect via different fleanode boxen etc
phf: i'm pretty sure we had pocket conversations during netsplits, that none of the bots heard☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: i'm quite convinced that this happened, and that it explains various cases of 'we DID this but wtf it aint in the logs'
phf: asciilifeform: you missed what i said. whois tells you which server user connects through. to prevent a netsplit scenario, you have to connect to every one of those boxes with at least one bot, but better yet n+1
asciilifeform: ( my fiber here bumps 1ce or 2ce / yr, so in practice there's very little rotation on my end )
phf: i mean, your bots gotta exist in a distributed pool, each does a whois on join, negotiates a spawn of a new bot if there's an untracked connection. of course this is an unreasonable amount of engineering for a logbot
asciilifeform: phf: approx similar to the sweat reqd to build own fleanode, aha
phf: own freenode comes with a neat feature of logger on relay
phf: and you start getting freenode/gossip overlaps, e.g. each l1 could run own fleanode, connect server-to-server, etc.
trinque figures there's some phrase in russian that means roughly "complexity accumulated in bureau A because not permitted/unwilling to change how bureau B works"
asciilifeform: my understanding was that mircea_popescu refrained from giving signal 'build us a fleanode' in the past on acct of (but not limited to) the reason where heathens (e.g. fetgurlz) would have difficulty visiting . but we already have the +r hoop for them to jump, i dun see how much worse would be own fleanode.☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: that's more or less ~all~ software complexities.
asciilifeform: 'these here 15,000 transistors are because we gotta talk to pci bus' etc
asciilifeform: yer comp consists ~99++% by weight of this bureaucracy.
asciilifeform: this is sorta why e.g. FUCKGOATS runs on 40 milliwatt ( of which 95% are lost as heat in the 10x-margined analogue pwr filtration in the daughterboards) whereas pc burns 100watt if were doing same work, etc
phf: trinque: nothing comes to mind, though i'm sure there's gotta be something in 70s su phrase book. we gotta ask rotakus though, that seems more of their thing (plus they would've had much better luck saying stuff like that, might've been too close to home in SU)
mircea_popescu has wiped the windows10 off a hp "envy". jesus fuck, anyone had ANY FUCKING IDEA just how many times you gotta reboot and bless the box to get through the lock microshit put on the boot process ?!
mircea_popescu: there's like three intermediate states, progress by degrees.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at this point this is a decade-long pestilence, even asciilifeform's x60 (circa 2009, iirc) terraforming recipe includes patching bios to permit hand-installed nic to work , followed by installation of same
asciilifeform: i guess i have simple tastes , dun particularly need to hear the cuntlips schlick
mircea_popescu: item is actually very pleasant, from a purely visual perspective. stupid-ish kbd, but large and light. fits perfectly on ass of girl holding her ankless so you can hurt her asshole while you lovingly kiss another.
mircea_popescu: assemblage can be drastically improved by placing laptop atop her ass, playing publicdisgrace.com. bring the light of the great urban outdoors in the dank of the cellar.
asciilifeform: this isn't same box as had the sad backlight is it
BingoBoingo: Ah, a long tale of the new recruit's lappy
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it will please you to know your name having been mentioned in passing in aside conversation, it proved remarkably enough to now denote the evil of internet boys among the new recruits.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 15:01 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom lulz, https://archive.is/43EIJ >> 'Amid mounting public pressure to address Jones' hate speech, Apple's Tim Cook and Eddy Cue met over the weekend and decided to pull five of Jones' podcasts from their platform'... << 'по просьбе трудящихся'(tm)(r) !
asciilifeform: trinque: i can only assume that 'make emacs unrunnable on this' was specific objective
mircea_popescu: end up with a programmable hardware inclusion list on which to run a php ftp emulator.
asciilifeform: trinque: difficult to picture the logic, unless it was deliberate 'coca cola classic' gambit, where it's to be put back later
trinque: the logic is "oooh what a demo, so future"
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the +r thing... we did get the no j/p spam part. sadly the way this shit works leaves no optimal choice, gotta pick this-or-that. is the idea we... i picked the wrong set ?
mircea_popescu: kinda how this works, best i can tell. "this is the livery for expressing your disdain to livery, and this is the livery to express your dedication to livery, and there you go, a complete experience out of a cardboard breakfast box"
asciilifeform: 'company dress code' must be a west-usa thing, asciilifeform went through several slaveries where he was only one not dressed in hobo garb
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with hobo garb, "shows you care" "about the less fortunate".
asciilifeform: dunno if meant to 'show' anyffing, it's what folx go around in when entirely not giving shit, costs $5
a111: Logged on 2018-08-13 17:27 mircea_popescu: george sanders has an excellent point re this : "for new yorkers who want to go out of town, new haven is a stretch of sidewalk between the taft hotel and the schubert theatre, surrounded by what appears remarkably like a small town".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform think about it this way, "ropa americana" ie, 2nd hand clothes imported from the us, are VERY DISTINGUISHABLE in actual not-giving-a-shit places. how would this be, if it carried no information ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:03 phf: asciilifeform: i saw it, i'm pointing out that this addition breaks things. you have to make sure that every single client plays along with freenode's defective ident system, otherwise you get breaks in logs, etc. e.g. phf bouncer is used as a fallback for logs, to ensure continuity, where the fact that the bouncer would come back naively (i.e. without trying to negotiate with nickserv) was a feature
mircea_popescu: in my case it's in suits. but in any case, it'll ahve to not have been pret-a-porter not-giving-shits.
mircea_popescu: because you specifically can't have fried ice, these two are contradictory. either it's marketed to or not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, eating roadkill is only not giving a shit until some nutjob in santa cruz comes up with $275 to rent a cable channel slot and starts pushing his miracle cure, diet & philosophy.
asciilifeform: afaik typical orc puts on a suit solely when being buried
mircea_popescu: sorta like being a homosexual was only a sexual choice before they came up with the political choice of being gay.
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-14 01:25:07: <Mocky> and i added implementations of those methods to worldhandler.cpp, which i can show if curious. but this brings me to my problem: I can't include worldhandler.h in any of my code without bringing in the whole cs / ps spitoon
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, because milk comes from supermarket, so what milkmaid.
mircea_popescu: (yes, obviously, my highly structured response to the problem being called slavery, but that's neither here nor there, walled garden so to speak)
asciilifeform: lol Mocky about to become familiar with the art of the hacksaw
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-14 01:30:42: <Mocky> the only thing I can think is if I can pull out those includes from worldhandler.h and put them in worldhandler.cpp, but I just don't see it. 90% of the methods have csString, or EID, csPtr, csVector3
mircea_popescu: THESE IDIOTS REIMPLEMENTED C STRINGS you understand me. also wrongly, of course. fucking pancake.
asciilifeform: oh mircea_popescu , recall the flowgraph project ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:07 asciilifeform: prolly the Right Thing would be to have the actual logtrons ( phf's, ben_vulpes's , Framedragger's if he were still alive , etc ) sync to one another as fallback
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-08-14 01:52:40: <Mocky> is it permissible to use c++11 features with the client/build? I couldn't tell from the jamconfig. it seems like the int64_t type is a c++11 thing and that's in there.
asciilifeform: ( but also that it introduces massive batch of unknwown deviltry in place of ~known )
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:31 phf: we've had this conversation long time ago, that irc loging is a purely gossip-like thing. at best you can say that "a111 received this message at such and such time, was claimed to be from X"
mircea_popescu: the very deliberate, and very plain gossipd-philosophy roots of logotrons are indeed not to be forgotten, either.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this being so, still imho suxx when , we yes had convo, but then it aint in any logs anywhere
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841351 << this sounds like the fucking lamborghini of all logotrons. seriously, connect ~two~ clients to ~each~ ircd and then have them ring-vote ? i agree it's the correct design, fwiw, but maybe hold off on implementation some time ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:34 phf: i mean to do reliable logging you need to track the whois "on server", and spawn 2 bots per server, which then all negotiate a single consensus message to promote to canonical "this is what was said"
mircea_popescu: otherwise this mega-logotron is actually larger than the freenode it logs. might as well use IT then instead.
mircea_popescu: the necessary correlate to "no, you can't have your lunch and eat it too, just as you couldn't when you asked me earlier, and just as you won't later on", ie, "you won't get the answer you wish to hear no matter how many times you ask", ie, immutably in front of idiocy -- there's not that much to lose, not really, out of public conversation.☟︎
mircea_popescu: if she whispers "i love you, master" just as you feel her asshole tear you might deeply regret having missed hearing it ; but if alf says (yes ? name not pronoun ?) c++ bungled smart pointers, what am i going to miss ? it's not fucking going away. if only it did. it's not. the reason he fucking said it, even is because the damned thing won't go away already.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall thread where ( i fughet which one of us ) posed gedankenexperiment, put in an eliza made out of collection of ' n00b: $input mircea_popescu: $output ' pairs, and see what it does to n00bs
asciilifeform: ( somewhere i got a GB+ of faqolade from the golden usenet days, some are pretty lulzy reads )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho log is important labour-saving device, lack of ability to point n00b to $oldlog , instead of having to say same thing 10,000 times, is one of the plagues that killed usenet
asciilifeform: ( granted , literacy only worx if there exist reader also, and not merely chuckcha-is-a-writer )
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 17:43 asciilifeform: my understanding was that mircea_popescu refrained from giving signal 'build us a fleanode' in the past on acct of (but not limited to) the reason where heathens (e.g. fetgurlz) would have difficulty visiting . but we already have the +r hoop for them to jump, i dun see how much worse would be own fleanode.
mircea_popescu: "In the first incident a SEATAC ground crew member 29 year old Richard Russell" << could use some commas.
mircea_popescu: "I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. " << that poor guy. i'd say on reflection this is utterly the engineerhead problem, "takes a whole adult life to unlearn five lines of socialist idiocy a stupid woman poured into the 3yo head"
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 21:39 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841573 << this is all new to me, I've been learning cpp from Stroustrup 4th ed. where he goes out of his way to act like cpp11 is the only version that ever existed
asciilifeform: sorta the polar opposite of vtronic development : 'this is c++, this always was'
Mocky: I have nfi how much influence he still has on standard, but spends entire preface kissing feet of latest version
asciilifeform: whereas 'no , motherfucker, what c++ actually is, ~is~ the the microshit crock of shit'
asciilifeform: if one were to ~set out to~ take the merely convoluted pointersandoverflowslang aka c, and turn into ~permanently~ indecipherably stateful churning liquishit, it would be quite difficult to do a 'better' job of it than stroustrup did.
asciilifeform: the man carries moar of the responsibility for microshit ecosystem than prolly any other single malignant shit alive.
asciilifeform: ( naggum had the observation, went like 'brokenness of unix is the brokenness of c , of winblows -- of c++ '
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 21:11 mircea_popescu: the necessary correlate to "no, you can't have your lunch and eat it too, just as you couldn't when you asked me earlier, and just as you won't later on", ie, "you won't get the answer you wish to hear no matter how many times you ask", ie, immutably in front of idiocy -- there's not that much to lose, not really, out of public conversation.
mircea_popescu: it's readily suspicious, when the following elements meet : a) a new set is promoted that includes some of the elements of the previous set but b) there's no discussion of why exactly some were left out, in substantial terms of what was wrong with them that reach all the way to the root and c) the author is apparently unaware that the a-b combo is the principal signal of idiocy.
asciilifeform: observe how the unix folx, richie & thompson, also proceeded similarly, doubled down on the 'unix philosophy' in e.g. 'inferno'
mircea_popescu: somehow the idiocy of democracy, "we have a new senate" "what was wrong with the old one ?" "huh ?" is supposed to steal our wits with the eyes attached, and leave us believing that "this is how it goes" or something ?
asciilifeform: 'we built straw bomber, it did not fly, gotta build bigger! one'
mircea_popescu: ~why~ did it have to change, and ~why~ was it there in the first place then. these gotta be addressed, wtf pseudo-rational process is this.
asciilifeform: there is no indication that there ever ~had been~ a 'why'. d00d designs like child picks his nose.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-08#1832784 << let's flesh this out a little, while at it. podophyllotoxin, active ingredient in mandrake root, is not only toxic but actually damages dna (ties the strand to topoisomerase, and prevents religation). this happens to be useful in some medical contexts (neoplasm management, basically). enter etoposide and teniposide, one with a methyl the other with a thienyl. otherwise, same item.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 00:29 asciilifeform: 'why is this methyl group here' '...patent'