asciilifeform: tried various cf cards in (mechanical) adapter, also.
asciilifeform: (large, small, == the original disk, all same.)
asciilifeform: oh while phf is awake ! : didja ever get that ivory cpu working ?
phf: oh yeah, i forgot about it. i got distracted because my console is not here with me, so i spent some time setting up xorg/telnet/networking
asciilifeform: aah ok
phf: i'm trying to figure out why genera's x client is crashing openbsd x server. but once i do i'll try the chip
asciilifeform: interesting ^ -- apparently x11 was not as standard as i thought
phf: "standard"
asciilifeform: ( and do i misread, or is phf's setup the reverse of the usual one, where genera is the server, and unix box -- client ? )
phf: you can do it either way, but right now genera is client and unix is server
phf: apparently there's an xserver implementation in genera! so can probably get xterm displayed.
asciilifeform: seems like a way to make a really slow xterminal ?
phf: i'm confused. genera is client, unix is server means that genera is going to display itself in a window on a unix box. (client/server in xorg terminology)
asciilifeform: aaah i was thinking of the traditional, rather than the x11istic, meanings, yes
asciilifeform: 'genera shits x11olade, unix box -- displays to screen and eats keyboard'
asciilifeform: so phf's setup is the usual one then.
phf: yeah, trying to sidestep lack of console
asciilifeform: i always thought this was one of the spiffiest things re the smbx boxes
asciilifeform: that the console is not really needed
asciilifeform: if i ever make the fpgaized thing, it sure as fuck won't bother trying to drive an lcd or eat keyboard, wtf, just speak x11.
asciilifeform: (there is, as of yet, nothing resembling a tolerable substitute for x11 protocol, sadly.)
phf: you mean wayland!1
asciilifeform: i've lost track of all of the crackpot 'i can't believe it's not x11!'s.
phf: i think not-transfering-letter-shapes-over-wire is one of the most useful features of protocol. naturally was first one to get subverted
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: not moving bitmaps when there is any way to avoid it, also.
asciilifeform: ( consider the barbarisms winblowz folx are STILL stuck with, e.g., vnc. )
asciilifeform: incidentally, i wonder if anybody's ever written a vnc worm.
phf: i think the argument was, you can't do aa with ttf unless you're composing client side.
asciilifeform: ( you can easily piss an exe into existence, via vnc, using 'alt codes' , or by getting hold of exploder and pissing in a url to load from, or possibly other ways. similar process in other os with exposed vnctron )
phf: i tried doing that through the citrix client, no dice (back when i was working for a place tha tuses a citrix client)
asciilifeform: do which
asciilifeform: alt codes ?
phf: yeah
asciilifeform: or what, it won't process 'click on exploder and go to such-n-such url' ?
shinohai: http://archive.is/4AQNB "Rising polonium prices and a stagnant economy force Russians to use gravity poisoning to save rubles"
shinohai: I think our friend Preet was prosecuting that case iirc
asciilifeform: phf: i wonder if anybody still makes ye olde xterminals
asciilifeform: physical ones. the kind that run from rom and just look like lcd monitors with keyboard jack and nic.
asciilifeform: connect to whatever, lose all state when unplugged.
asciilifeform: sun, iirc, made one, but that was eons ago.
phf: that would be a nifty project if it didn't just reduce to "raspberry pi"
asciilifeform: not rom neh
asciilifeform: i did say 'rom', not 'flash'.
phf: xorg in fpga..
asciilifeform: every couplea months i do an 'can haz otp rom?' and answer, as always, is 'nope', not at any price, simply not made in past 30 yrs.
asciilifeform: the supposed otp roms you can buy now, are actually eproms without the quartz window.
asciilifeform: nothx.
asciilifeform: (they don't come in any size bigger than , iirc, 64kB, either.)
asciilifeform: for instance, i wanted to make FUCKGOATS in otp. no dice.
asciilifeform: not gettable.
asciilifeform: not without paying for the fabbing wholesale (at which point you have asic, and can simply have what you want in the asic)
phf: you ask for such things
phf: it's an alt future technoloyg
asciilifeform: i ask, naively, for tech of 30 yrs ago to be available at some price point
mircea_popescu: alt-1980s
mircea_popescu: emulated in 2030
asciilifeform: but nope. it went the way of mircea_popescu's top hat.
phf: speaking of FUCKGOATS, project PITCHFORK? i still can't get over that one
asciilifeform: phf: lulzy, neh.
mircea_popescu: i thought i was just being paranoid.
asciilifeform: (oh imho a future otp rom, if anyone finds himself sitting on a throne, and wants to make one, ought to have not one but TWO fuses per bit. so that nobody can turn a 1 into a 0 later by blowing an unblown fuse. so you'd have 10 -> 1; 01 -> 0; 11 -> dead cell, ergo dead chip; 00 -> blank cell, only found on blank (new) chip.)
mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from using a normal one this way as it is.
asciilifeform: ideally you'd have the glass window on it, as on an epro, also! but strictly so that you can read it optically.
asciilifeform: *eprom
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru! but won't be pin-compatible with traditional roms
asciilifeform: (for some applications this matters)
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: 'if i had a ' hamme^H^H^H^H^Hfab, i'd start with very humble things, like... rom.
mircea_popescu: none of it will work until we have the whip to starve the jus' wanting to masses.
mircea_popescu: them of the "Why should i do it right when i could do it easy" church.
asciilifeform: i thought mircea_popescu was of the notion that you don't need economy of mass to do si fab.
mircea_popescu: you still need anti-mass.
asciilifeform: how so?
asciilifeform: what's to keep mircea_popescu from building one in his cellar ( supposing he felt like it )
mircea_popescu: ordinary jwz must have no alternatives. otherwise... ordinary jwz will pretend he exists.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mircea_popescu already has.
asciilifeform: can haz few mm^2 of die space, mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: point being -- dorks go around pretending they're doing "end to end encryption". this field must not exist in order for mp's cellar fab to work irl.
asciilifeform: it already does not exist, 'but the squirrels don't know'
mircea_popescu: well squirrels gotta find out.
asciilifeform: ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-07#1579090 canonical )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-07 15:31 asciilifeform: 'well ~i~! know now that i'm not an acorn. but do THE SQUIRRELS know??????'
mircea_popescu: that's the rub. not "need one billion". you don't. but you DO need a giant fly swatter to oppress teh masses with.
asciilifeform: faux crypto ain't ever going away, it is like homeopathy, astrology, fills a niche in the poor, the lazy, the intellectually powerless, for 'control'
mircea_popescu: homeopathy, etc are all CONSUMER MARKET PHENOMENA.
mircea_popescu: take the consumer away, all these problems of peon opining are solved.
asciilifeform: iirc no less a man than hitler, supported whole stable of alchemists, quacks.
asciilifeform: dun have to be mass/konsoomer oriented.
mircea_popescu: this is what needs buckling, the centenary trend of turning medieval serfs into modern consumers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you think hitler was much of a man ?!
asciilifeform: well not garden gnome.
mircea_popescu: srsly now, hitler was a rank imbecile, and in practical terms a major discredit to his country.
mircea_popescu: had germany been led by a sane man, it'd have just maintained a defensive alliance with japan an' argentina. never empowered the idiots, not in italy, not in russia.
asciilifeform: take qin shi huangdi , say. definitely a credit, one of the few credits, to his.
mircea_popescu: stalin without the war would have fallen flat under the weight of his own imbecillity by 1945.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the quack of 5millenia before is not a comparable item in this scope though.
asciilifeform: 'they can stay unfallen under the weight of their imbecility longer than you can stay solvent' or how did it go
mircea_popescu: no way.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru
mircea_popescu: a sanely managed german "empire" would have outcompeted britain out of the ground by 1950.
mircea_popescu: this way, they had to wait till 2020.
mircea_popescu: hitler cost germany a little over halfd a century.
mircea_popescu: "lebensraum" fucking bs. they could have just colonized argentina. it's larger than fucking europe, and richer.
mircea_popescu: but no, the yhad to go die pointlessly in fucking ukraine, so the italians colonized argentina 20 years later
mircea_popescu: and UTTERLY shat it. this country was in the top 5 in 1920. because of the imperial german trade.
mircea_popescu: now it's ~= chad.
mircea_popescu: but to get back to it : no, hitler didn't have much of a clue, nor were any of his decisions either sound, useful or correct.
mircea_popescu: just a derpy application of "to make a small fortune in X first you start with a large fortune."
asciilifeform: point was that 1 idiot with actual money is ~= 10,000,001 with penny.
asciilifeform: in terms of alchemy impact.
mircea_popescu: i doubt this very much.
mircea_popescu: it is much worse to have a town of 1000 populated by 500 idiots with idiots' tastes and 20 bucks to spend each
mircea_popescu: than it is to have one idiot with 20k to burn.
asciilifeform: ( and hitler was not even the champ, in his circle. consider the idiot chicken farmer's 'ahnenerbe' for instance. )
mircea_popescu: social effects. the maximal empowerment of rank imbecillity is where there's a lot of imbeciles with a little gas each.
asciilifeform: tru. all of the nonsense of versailles did not destroy euro culture; the 20th c -- did.
mircea_popescu: which is the point of anti-inequality : simply TAKING the empire's money away from "the public" into the hands of the lizards is an improvement in teraforming terms.
mircea_popescu: which is why corruption is the right thing, and anyone "fighting corruption" should be raped and then gutted.
mircea_popescu: collect taxes, let them be stolen by individuals.
mircea_popescu: this is also how capitalism starts.
asciilifeform: this was tested in late su/90s ru. afaik summed to 0.
mircea_popescu: 0 my foot.
asciilifeform: orcs just pour golden toilet, and prop up western 'bank' chumpatron.
mircea_popescu: hruschev had no idea how to get even with the us. check it out that putin humiliated obama.
mircea_popescu: this is not 0, this is 1. THE 1.
asciilifeform: in abstract it sounds entirely tru -- 'gotta get the money out of the hands of the beetle man.' but the actual history is somewhat puzzling -- 'beetle man' su had , e.g., steklov mathematical institute. '90s ru -- cocaine yachts, golden toilets.
mircea_popescu: latter is better than former.
mircea_popescu: you stubbornly measure only the height of the plank, then are surprised at volume differential.
asciilifeform: say why i ought to be interested in anything other than the height of the plank.
mircea_popescu: steklov math man was a 1km long, 1mm x 1mm individual. the cocaine yacht dude was 1m on all sides.
mircea_popescu: the sqmm km long pile is not 1 cubic meter.
asciilifeform: y'know one could build a mass of cockroach 10km on all sides.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because irl volume matters.
asciilifeform: it's what the americans -- did.
mircea_popescu: hey, i know your entire life is dedicated to the proposition that geting 10% better at doing math is worth losing out 50% on salesmanship.
mircea_popescu: this, however, is FALSE.
asciilifeform: hey somebody gotta fall on the grenade, mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: yes, "but mp, octopus also has tentacles"
mircea_popescu: sure. problem is 70s ru had nothing but.
asciilifeform: had (surprisingly to some folx) the first 'elbrus', quite competitive with cray1
mircea_popescu: an' romania had felix
mircea_popescu: but none of them had the people with enough fucking sense to get out of the rain.
mircea_popescu: exactly like china today. disciplined followers and local optimizers.
asciilifeform: tru. which is why dead empire, in 'egyptological' museum, and not on the map
asciilifeform: opposite, really, of china.
mircea_popescu: in a sense.
asciilifeform brb, playing with pet
mircea_popescu: imo us and su failed exactly the same way : once the message got put out that "don't worry, do your own thing, we got X covered", it died the next day
mircea_popescu: dun matter "we got X covered" is "we're building socialism" or "they failed building socialism"
mircea_popescu: once jwz is possible the place died.
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631333 these suffer charge leakage ( like ordinary flash rom ) ; actual otp -- theoretically good for centuries.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 00:27 asciilifeform: the supposed otp roms you can buy now, are actually eproms without the quartz window.
asciilifeform: ( and quite impervious to radiation )
asciilifeform: which, i suspect, is why they got lizarded away. 'they' don't want cheap radhard cpu, rom.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631203 << Hey, I just replaced coolant hoses on car. Destroyed old leaky plastic "quick connect" fittings with screwdriver since they embrittled to become "always connected". Replaced them with thermoplastic heat shrink clamps.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 23:21 asciilifeform: yea it's a pre-plastic auto.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what's wrong with stainless steel clamps ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Insufficiently novel. Try to preserve Saturn plasticar's plasticar theme.
BingoBoingo: And the thermoplastic clamps have a very "clean" look to them.
BingoBoingo: On the plus side the cooling system on this vehicle is just about the easiest possible thing to fill. Coolant reservoir is part of pressure system, heatercore is always open, thing is basically self burping.
asciilifeform: !!up doppler
deedbot: doppler voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!rate doppler 1 new blood
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wZpiD/?raw=true
asciilifeform: !!v 74529CA504C1406823EE4D1EFC7752977E28CF0E4AC4017672D6C40DFAD90E4E
deedbot: asciilifeform rated doppler 1 << new blood
doppler: excellent
asciilifeform: happy wotbirthday doppler .
asciilifeform: now say a bit re who you are ? what brings you here ?
doppler: sure thing
doppler: I was drawn in by the computer-related discussions I have seen from some of the users here
doppler: I guess most notably, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: more specifically ?
doppler: well this is going to sound dumb but
asciilifeform: ( maybe 90% of the material is in some sense 'computer related' lol )
doppler: I think I found your website through some ancient HN post
doppler: I also have connections to some people who work on lisp machine restoration
asciilifeform: do say more
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform in particular is not esp. interested in 'lisp machine restoration' in the sense of 'old car restoration' hobbyists, but in reverse-engineering )
doppler: haha, well I think there are varying levels in the people I talk with
doppler: I haven't done anything in that regard personally
doppler: but I'm very interested in the topic
asciilifeform: incidentally the real titan of 'bolixology' here is phf , rather than asciilifeform .
doppler: phf knows at least one of the people i know
doppler: I have enjoyed the content that I have read in the logs over some months and watched scroll by as I idled here the past few days
doppler: so really I'm here to learn
asciilifeform: we had a lively thread not long ago, where asciilifeform complains re primary activity of the top bolixologists seems to consist of sitting quietly, dog-in-the-manger-style, on piles of unpublished goodies
asciilifeform: perhaps doppler will break the radio silence and post some docs
doppler: what kinds are you looking for?
asciilifeform: well, starting with the crown jewels , and down :
doppler: haha
asciilifeform: 1) the NS source for the last 'ivory'.
asciilifeform: 2) NS itself.
doppler: I wish.
asciilifeform: 3) the uncensored (compl. with low-levels) src for last (8.3 afaik) genera.
doppler: I say I'm here to learn and you hit me with such a request :)
asciilifeform: doppler: learn, learn.
asciilifeform: the 'i know people...' is what prompted the req.
doppler: ah.
doppler: well I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask them
doppler: what are you working on presently?
asciilifeform: entirely unrelated things.
doppler: oh?
asciilifeform: most of it is described, in painful detail, in the logs.
doppler: sounds good
asciilifeform: re 'non-crown' jewels of bolixdom, one example of useful thing that does not publicly exist anywhere -- the mere pinout of the 'ivory'.
asciilifeform: ( it would be possible to build a behavioural test stand for it, if the pinout and timing characteristics were known. theoretically anyone with a 'macivory' and some spare time, could come up with these. )
doppler: hmm, i see
asciilifeform: for some odd reason, not a single one of the folks who bought these relics, has seen it fit to do this work.
asciilifeform: or even to take and post a high-resolution photo of the thing.
doppler: it seems that many are caught up in the 'collection' aspect, maybe
asciilifeform: it is almost as if they did not want their 3-10k $ investments to turn into the equivalent of old nintendo.
asciilifeform: which any idiot can emulate.
doppler: yeah
asciilifeform: however that is precisely what i'm interested in.
asciilifeform: making their investments -- worth ~$ 0.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that we'll never get the ~people~ who built that thing, back.
asciilifeform: i know for a fact that some of them -- are dead.
asciilifeform: others -- long past the end of their intellectual working lives.
asciilifeform: we could, however, get the ~artifact~ back. in theory.
asciilifeform: ( and -- possibly -- some of the insider working notes. )
doppler: that part is sad, yes
asciilifeform: the 'collectors', in my experience, have been the farthest possible thing from a help -- quite a hindrance, in fact.
doppler: how much of the remaining equipment do you think is still "undiscovered"?
doppler: ie. owned by people or parties that do not know the value of it
asciilifeform: the equipment is not the issue, it is all available, for a price
asciilifeform: the sources/schematics/etc. are the issue.
doppler: might there be documentation along with the machines?
asciilifeform: i have 100% of the published documentation here.
asciilifeform: it fill a book case.
asciilifeform: *fills
asciilifeform: ( most of it is also on www )
doppler: I see.
asciilifeform: the published documentation is of 0 use in cloning the machine.
asciilifeform: ( quite deliberately )
asciilifeform: symbolics -- also quite deliberately -- never even printed an honest instruction set reference, for any of the machines.
doppler: I do see why that would be to their advantage
asciilifeform: it wasn't an outrageous / illogical / atrocious thing to do. smbx was a fabless chip maker which competed directly with, among others, TI ('explorer' lispm)
doppler: right.
asciilifeform: the result, however, is that the ~singularly~ most interesting comp from 1980s -- is ~entirely lost .
asciilifeform: the old iron, doppler , is not -- contrary to the delusions of 'collectors' -- interesting per se. the ~software~ was not even interesting per se -- it was a tall pile of stinking mit hacks. the CONCEPTS, however, as described in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 , WERE interesting.
asciilifeform: and ergo the software, to the extent it embodied these concepts -- which was quite large -- is interesting;
asciilifeform: and the iron -- is also of interest, in so far as it made the soft -- possible.
doppler: that's a very respectable way to think about it
doppler: that post was among the first I read
doppler: and it was eye-opening
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/R5bkM/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: Their loss, I'm sorry for it.
shinohai: In other lulz, the "esteemed Asst. Prof. Emin Sirer" on why the Bitcoin Unlimited bugs of late are no big deal: https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/844331767175794689