mircea_popescu: and speaking of btcalpha - is someone gonna redo this plox ?
AforA: "graph thingy", that's one hell of an understatement :D
asciilifeform: !~seen mike_c
jhvh1: asciilifeform: I have not seen mike_c.
asciilifeform: never came up for air since the schism, eh
mircea_popescu: nope, no answer to email, he's gone.
mircea_popescu: a pity too because i really liked the graphing
asciilifeform: never popped up on the kakotron either.
mircea_popescu: i think he might just be overrun by irl.
AforA: oh and where the hell are my manners: thanks for the voice, mircea_popescu :)
mircea_popescu: sure.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> would this be something teh foundation might consider sponsoring, ben_vulpes mod6 ? << werd. we'll discuss and get back to you. o7
mod6: fwiw, at face value, i like it.
mod6: !~tslb
jhvh1: mod6: Time since last block: 41 minutes and 23 seconds
mircea_popescu: mod6 the main consideration there, strategically, would be that while foundation's conservative finances are certainly the path to victory, the absence of any and all expenditures is probably by now becoming a drag - why'd someone donate his tax dues when the coin is just going to sit ? he might as well donate it mentally and let it sit in his own pocket. sooner or later something will hafta be done, or else why bother. somet
mircea_popescu: hing like this has the advantage that it's an entirely uninvesting expenditure (exact opposite of what the faux foundation did with its "hiring" of nsa asset gavin andresen), it commits the foundation to ~nothing and can be discontinued at any point.
asciilifeform thought that the donations would print The B0000k
mircea_popescu: well that also, but looks more like 2020.
asciilifeform: where is my motherfuckingb00000k
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: it's good to be able to say you know, here, we have a track record of usefulness, trust us.
mod6: mircea_popescu: a fair point. we have been pretty frugal. we have considered paying for a few things, but they never were fully baked.
mod6: asciilifeform: heheh, i thought some guy was gonna print the book for you?
mircea_popescu: anyway, for you two to discuss.
asciilifeform: lulzily, i did end up printing it personally
asciilifeform: on ordinary laser
mod6: werd.
asciilifeform: and then tearing out chunks of it as i nuked'em
mod6: mircea_popescu: makes sense. we'll discuss.
mircea_popescu: btw, speaking of mosul & more generally the us inept engagement in the empire's graveyard : anyone know the great story of the faqir of ipi ?
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: After doing a bit of gardening this weekend, and the science thereof, I'm a bit disappointed in the all the "cool kids" who made fun of the "Horticulture Kids"
AforA: read about the book...romanian? talk about synchronicity, I was just reading this guys work, and it seemed relevant to the point about domain invalidation from V: http://fs.gallup.unm.edu/florentinsmarandache.htm. hm. and as to answer your question mircea: the non-log part being absorbing the website.
mircea_popescu: AforA what book is that ?
AforA: Asylum - sorry for neglecting to mention that
thestringpuller: !~seen shinohai
jhvh1: thestringpuller: shinohai was last seen in #trilema 1 hour, 21 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <shinohai> bit it worx and we love it
mircea_popescu: asylum is in english though.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo lulz of all lulz is that well... not only jill stein is poisoning the clinton vote ; but so is johnson, some-fucking-how. << That's been on Qntra for months nao
BingoBoingo: <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again? << cut the antenna wires with a pair of Kleins or Dykes?
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: It's because they are jealous they don't have an Agri-CULTURE to celebrate
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/10/probable-aspect-of-peace-on-earth-arrested-while-the-notorious-quiet-and-tranquility-evades-capture/ << Qntra - Probable Aspect Of Peace On Earth Arrested While The Notorious Quiet And Tranquility Evades Capture
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=5468
BingoBoingo: ty to shinohai for the lead
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2016/10/19/is-so-unfair-cycle-2/ << Bingo Blog - Is So Unfair Cycle 2
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo indeed. slowly percolating through my head :)
BingoBoingo: Trump has hoardes, CLitler has "settlers" who can settle on other candidates.
mircea_popescu: and in other afterparty news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/04467c1871a1103396d2ece8c0da251d/tumblr_nesv8r1BYD1tiy6qdo1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: back up to 84 pete_dushenski
ben_vulpes: i'm going to have to start collecting statistics.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556881 << i must point out, much as i have 0 luvvv for these folx, that this was a forced move. clim is ugly and dog-slow for what i suspect are fundamental reasons .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 23:10 gabriel_laddel: This, when they already had a complete clim implementation.
asciilifeform: and probably not fixable w/out making iron.
asciilifeform: (consider, why did they not simply clim-for-winblowz ??)
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 << tbh i didn't check. does it re-enable after hw switch is toggled? what distro/OS do you run? i could check how it is on my end on that machine (prolly tomorrow, not today)
Framedragger: hmpf
Framedragger: will check logs later. ridoinculous
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 ^
scriba: Logged on 2016-10-19: [23:36:04] <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again?
Framedragger: also iirc x220's come with either intel or realtek wifi adapters. mine is intel
mircea_popescu: and in other "future britny spears" news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlU_wYK0YF4
mircea_popescu: and here';s something for ben_vulpes specifically : http://www.kopana.net/september-15-2014/
diana_coman: ahaha: ",operator imagine : Mircea Popescu"
mircea_popescu: aha. it's how it ended up in my flux.
mod6: mornin'
mircea_popescu: hola
trinque: Framedragger: ah and here I thought he wanted the wifi to stay off!
mircea_popescu: and in today's installement of "i am a jew and an idiot, hear my butt tearflow", https://archive.is/tJj1I
trinque: was pretty entertaining when that mickey mouse hosting the show asked them why neither of them care about increasing the national debt.
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/wL0Ev << in other lelz
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1556998 << wtf is such a 'hardware' switch worth ?!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 10:17 Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 << tbh i didn't check. does it re-enable after hw switch is toggled? what distro/OS do you run? i could check how it is on my end on that machine (prolly tomorrow, not today)
scriba: Logged on 2016-10-19: [23:36:04] <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i don't know how it works internally in x220. if i wanted to make sure to not have wifi, i'd remove / physically disconnect the controller, of course..
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is trivial to pull the card. my point is that there is an abundance of mysteriously softwaretronic 'hardware switches' for write-protect, radio-toggle, etc.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: hey no disagreement there!
Framedragger: tbh i wouldn't expect anything truly shady out of x220. i just didn't try any switches yet
Framedragger: ("truly shady" except for, you know, the whole shitty stack incl cpu, dma etc)
asciilifeform: or the winblowz rootkit which still ships with the stock bios
asciilifeform: etc
Framedragger: the prime point of my conviction regarding shadiness comes from the fact that X220 has a legit hax0r backlight at top of monitor.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: you mean uefi? yeah..
asciilifeform: no, ordinary rootkit
Framedragger: oh, uh
trinque: wtf is a legit hax0r backlight
Framedragger: trinque: it's a small LED which shines down upon the most awesome thinkpad keyboard before lenovo ruined (fuck chiclet)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: you don't mean anything in cpu microcode but rather in bios? plox to enlighten uneducated naive mind
asciilifeform: !#s lenovo rootkit
a111: 1 result for "lenovo rootkit", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=lenovo%20rootkit
trinque: presence of this backlight makes you think either of IBM or Lenovo wouldn't fuck you for their government masters?
asciilifeform: !~google lenovo rootkit
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Lenovo used shady ' rootkit ' tactic to quietly reinstall unwanted ...: <http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-rootkit-ensured-its-software-could-not-be-deleted/>; Lenovo Caught Using Rootkit to Secretly Install Unremovable Software: <http://thehackernews.com/2015/08/lenovo-rootkit-malware.html>; Lenovo Statement on Lenovo Service Engine (LSE) BIOS | Lenovo ...: (1 more message)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: heh. i think i recall. pity i didn't properly *read* about it. guess time to corebios the fuck out of that laptop anyway
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/nnVrp << in other lulz, amerikanization!11111
Framedragger: asciilifeform: oh no this is sth else - thanks!
asciilifeform: ^ argentina mandates diebold voting machine and proclaims that publication of flaws is punishable
Framedragger: (still not sure if that rootkit is basically same as superfish. the latter is just in software as i take it; the former is a lenovo superduper software update solution which can download the latter(?) and resides in BIOS which is scary)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=82d9b8ff7442a8e58f779a08c0d06494#p29497693
asciilifeform: ( https://archive.is/QFIFw )
asciilifeform: ^ archive.is seems to break anchors
Framedragger: "More worrisome part of the feature is that it injects software that updates drivers, firmware, and other pre-installed apps onto Windows machine – even if you wiped the system clean." LOL
Framedragger: kthx
Framedragger: "a file called "wpbbin.exe" was placed in C:\windows\system32 and executed. That turns out to be a method Microsoft introduced with Windows 8 to allow the BIOS to execute code on boot up (!?!) called "Windows Platform Binary Table (WPBT)"." gotta love M$
thestringpuller: !!s 150
Framedragger: (and lenovo published their own 'Lenovo LSE Windows Disabler Tool'). [sorry i'm sure this is in the logz - i'm behind on stuff..]
thestringpuller: !~s bip-150
jhvh1: thestringpuller: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
thestringpuller: power rangers version of gossipd like stuff? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0150.mediawiki
Framedragger: five back-and-forth messages, hmh. also "For privacy reasons, dropping the connection or aborting during the authentication process must not be allowed. " sounds stupid to me
thestringpuller: unsurprising coming from the power rangers
asciilifeform: 'Acknowledgements: Gregory Maxwell and Pieter Wuille for most of the ideas in this BIP. Bryan Bishop for editing.'
asciilifeform: bishop == kanzure
asciilifeform: self-admitted usg hilfswillige.
thestringpuller: "A Hiwi was a foreigner who volunteered to serve the Nazis."
thestringpuller: TIL
asciilifeform: !!rated kanzure
deedbot: asciilifeform rated kanzure -1 at 2014/06/21 22:40:29 << minor-league quisling; inquire within
thestringpuller inquires about rating
asciilifeform: it is in recent l0gz iirc.
asciilifeform: folks ask regularly, because the d00d is 'everywhere'.
thestringpuller: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-04#1552372 << so d00d works for Hitler?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-04 02:17 asciilifeform: kid was cursed, at very young age, with being 'esr rich'
asciilifeform: works, as far as i can tell, for the self-importance monkey riding on his back.
asciilifeform: but possibly at this point also for bread.
thestringpuller: hence why he types 20k word transcripts of lame meetings?
asciilifeform: the sort of fella who wants to be, where 'it's at' by his dim lights.
asciilifeform: y'know, folx like walter schellenberg, who joined ss simply because of the spiffy uniform and 'good career perspective'
thestringpuller: albeit off topic. your WWII references genuinely used to make me think you were >70 y/o
asciilifeform: lel
Framedragger: trinque: here's a (very shitty) video of someone dem0nstrating said light https://youtu.be/WzfL3parOWM?t=12
Framedragger: it's for the win.
asciilifeform: i had several boxes with this lamp, imho it is monumentally useless.
asciilifeform: why the fuck do you even need to see the keys.
asciilifeform: .. 'hunt and peck' typing ??
Framedragger: i actually like to have a sticky note near palm to scribble upon. in the dark
Framedragger: i too learned to type in was it 3rd grade :p but the light is aw3some. seriously tho, yeah it's not powerful at all
asciilifeform: i prefer working in a lit room
asciilifeform: (better yet, in the daytime)
Framedragger: but then how can you hax0r.
Framedragger: (i'm in an energetic mood today, teenage mode = collateral damage)
thestringpuller: you have a teenager?
Framedragger: thestringpuller: no not in the sense that you mean..
Framedragger: in unrelated news/queries, game audio has deteriorated in the last 10 years. used to be proper 3d positional audio. am trying to build a shitty 2d top-down thingie with proper HRTF etc for audio, don't suppose anyone has any recommendations? if worx on linux, enough in principle. linux + osx + windows = ideal
Framedragger: (mandatory 'fuck creative labs and fuck microsoft for pulling back on soundcard APIs)
thestringpuller: what are you using?
thestringpuller: sdl?
Framedragger: thestringpuller: pyglet for prototyping (yes yes python & graphics wtf), later - i do not know, i considered unity for prototyping, too (fat thing, that, yes). for ease of sake, very likely sdl for graphics and events, but not set.
thestringpuller: ah
thestringpuller: SDL with OpenAL is probably better suited, but more code writing.
Framedragger: unity hsa this oculus audio sdk which does HRTF and everything, but no occlusion. openal-soft does the latter as well as HRTF
Framedragger: thestringpuller: yeah fair enough
Framedragger: the -soft fork of openal seems very decent enough. i was hoping for something high/lazy-level for graphics so i don't have to deal too much with it (it'd be just 2d shapes anyway, no textures etc, super simplistic), and lower-level for audio so i can mess around with it. openal-soft as of now best contender
Framedragger: but man is audio a mess. so much middleware and layers
thestringpuller: i think with openal (iirc) you can drop sound to emit from a location like a light source on 3d map
thestringpuller: people used to love they could use the coords from OpenGL with OpenAL
thestringpuller: oh wow this shit still exist. I did this tutorial in high school circa 2003/2004: http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/programming-3d-sound-with-openal-in-windows-r1958 << its for windows but I think you can translate to linux p. easily
thestringpuller: Framedragger: yea its something like: alSource3f(alSource,AL_POSITION, xposition, yposition, zposition);
Framedragger: (was afk.) (i guess it's unavoidable to a point because e.g. you need to somehow pass down complex scene info (not only sources and listeners but also obstacles for occlusion/reverb) into a low-level api)
thestringpuller: I mean you don't have to use opengl for graphics just use openal's coordinate system on top of SDL
Framedragger: thestringpuller: yeah you're totally right and i really like the api - it's nice! it does seem that to make sure everything incl hrtf works on a person's PC it needs to be installed to system dirs and then linked dynamically as folks had problems with static linking; and apparently for windows the 'proper' way to do it is to first install creative's openal version, and *then* install openal-soft on top
Framedragger: which is something i'd like to avoid; but if i can't - then i guess it's still the best thing available
Framedragger: yeah
Framedragger: (in one of his talks karmack did complain that (something like) "it's still ridiculous that i can send a packet to another continent than i can send a click to my sound card!" - basically, multiple middlware layers are involved and it's a bit.. stinky. but at least one can stick to a good API and reduce the headache..)
Framedragger: ^ send a packet *faster*
asciilifeform: Framedragger: 'software mixers' are an evil.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: asciilifeform: but if you want 3d soundspace with coordinates of sounds etc?
asciilifeform: (audio buffers are also an idiocy, but it is a forced mistake, it comes from trying to do real-time operations on a multiprocess os full of shit)
Framedragger: i guess that's not "mixing"
asciilifeform: the 'msdos way' to do audio was the sane way - 'what i write to this-here-address comes out the DAC immediately.'
Framedragger: yeah, linux audio folks have these suggestions to "run everything on a realtime kernel", which is probably akin to pouring a bit of water (which may or may not be mixed with gasoline) on a large fire.
Framedragger: sure.
Framedragger: i'd really like that
asciilifeform: ever try to use a linux (or winblowz) box for cnc machining via naive 'parallel port to stepper motor' plug ?
asciilifeform: you get soup.
asciilifeform: because multiprocess.
asciilifeform: worse yet if on a laptop, which has smm
Framedragger: i can imagine. i mean.. laggy audio on 2ghz cpu because multiprocess OS
asciilifeform: (and then you get interrupts serviced even under msdos with interrupt flag off)
Framedragger: heh!
Framedragger: s/karmack/carmack/ ^
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: the ms-dos way is used on the gameboy
thestringpuller: DMA to this address and out comes sound
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: and on every sane piece of single-purpose hardware ever made.
thestringpuller: writing a program for it felt a lot liek telling the computer to play a tape...
trinque: Framedragger: I had old school thinkpads; I was mocking your implication that it meant anything about whether the hardware was diddled
trinque: looking back over recent history, maybe a guy asks himself why the government stopped pushing the clipper chip.
trinque does not know how old Framedragger is
BingoBoingo: re: lights >> http://www.27bslash6.com/halogen.html
asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitiously.html#c1746484 << 'little birds' tell me that this actually happened. but no proof. anyone got electron microscope and too much free time ?
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com << in quite other lulz.
asciilifeform: 'As you know “the international community” is denouncing Russia’s use of bunker buster bombs as a war crime. There is a rebel video on you tube examining the hole made by a bunker buster. Looks like the bomb blast went through two meters of concrete to blow up inside a bunker. Somehow I doubt that you will find all that many civilians under two meters of concrete inside a bunker. But I rather suspect you might find a few memb
asciilifeform: ers of “the international community” in there.'
asciilifeform: etc.
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/uncategorized/nitrocellulose-illegalized << also of interest.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ^ (belated) qntra ?
BingoBoingo: Sure
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/war/now-four-sovereign-nations << re turks.
asciilifeform: many lulz. (e.g., http://blog.jim.com/war/on-successful-revolution )
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/science/technological-decay-2 << aerial combat etc.
mircea_popescu: lol electrospaces.blogspot mmkay
asciilifeform: very mixed bag, this d00d.
asciilifeform: but not wholly a snore, which is rare.
trinque: where does he define this Cathedral thing
asciilifeform: trinque: it's a moldbugism
mircea_popescu: no it's not.
mircea_popescu: "the cathedral and the bazaar", google it.
asciilifeform: this is coincidental
asciilifeform: mr mold was quite specific about which 'cathedral', 0 to do with esr's.
mircea_popescu: not in the slightest. i daresay there is not one thing that originates with the curtis yarvin fellow.
trinque: I'm aware of the latter
mircea_popescu: what he does is the very americansky "i buy old books and rewrite them in my own hand, nobody'd ever know"
asciilifeform: this, he did not try to hide. but his 'cathedral' is american (and, post-1945, 'internashiinnal komyooniti') academia/press.
mircea_popescu: the difference from the other one being specifically that ?
asciilifeform: iirc esr's referred to microshit
mircea_popescu: ie, academia/press
mircea_popescu: the whole "this is how the matriarchy does it, this is how it should be done - because the matriarchy in all times and places is so much frozen shit" is not liable to change over time.
asciilifeform: imho it is useful to distinguish pickpocket from rustler, even if both are hanged with the same type of rope on the same tree on same day etc.
mircea_popescu: but do distinguish.
mircea_popescu: so how is microsoft different from democratic party supercap ?
mircea_popescu: physically the same people, ideologically the same agenda, financially the exact same "money", wherein lies the distinguishing ?
asciilifeform: esr's 'cathedral' is an imbecilic indictment of führerprinzip ;
asciilifeform: mr mold's - of demooocracy.
mircea_popescu: not in my read
asciilifeform: if we're dabbling in telepsychiatry, then the subject is what the patient hallucinated, rather than the actual objects that were in front of him at the time.
asciilifeform: esr hallucinated 'microshit is evil because monarchic'
mircea_popescu: well i dunno about that. the point being, if two works purport to describe items that can not be distinguished, it then stands that the two works are about the same thing.
asciilifeform: they describe the author's hallucinations, which are not difficult to distinguish.
mircea_popescu: this is how metaphysics, or christianity, etc even became subjects in the first place
asciilifeform: the actualities - correct, are quite similar, to sane eye.
mircea_popescu: there is absolutely nothing but this to glue together eg t aquinas and jonas the prophet
mircea_popescu: (and for bonus lulz - according to THEMSELVES, the pashtun are jews. unlike the people you and i know as jews, who are idiots, the good jews from afghanistan heard of the last prophet and sent envoys to muhammad.)
mircea_popescu: and since it's been mentioned, let it be said i'm rather suspicious of this fuhrerprinzip business also. nazis WERE socialists, by their own lights, and the fact that they desired a matriarchy stylistically irreconcilable with the matriarchy in power in england does not make them men, or respectable.
asciilifeform: that cargo cultists build 'airplane', does not show that airplane is a scam.
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: 'tischgespräche im führerhauptquartier' and other sources strongly suggest that ~their~ airplane - was of straw.
asciilifeform: or at least of very dubious cardboard.
mircea_popescu: and since we're on it, let's define terms. matriarchy - an arrangement built among the worst in society, who are weak, inconsequential, ambitious and envious. they tend to spend a lot of time gossiping - which is speech without purpose - and dedicate themselves to a very pedestrian sort of magico-technology, aiming to protect, their worthless flesh as well as their miserable progeny. this necessarily decays into a quest for c
mircea_popescu: onvenience, which is no sort of hedonism.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile patriarchy is an arrangement among the best in society, who are strong, inconsequential, and careless. they tend to spend a lot of time doing, which is purpose without speech, and dedicate themselves to raping the women and tearing down anything taller than themselves.
asciilifeform: afaik we all here went to kindergarten, read of herr nietzsche's slave morality, etc..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sometimes i suspect you might have been the only one at your kindergarten :)
asciilifeform: lel
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/crypto/against-urbit << poor heathens dance around the elephant
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/crypto/against-urbit/#comment-1241097 << handful of folx - get it.
asciilifeform: ( apparently mr mold was ordered by handlers to counter-attack, http://urbit.org/posts/objections )
mircea_popescu: anyway. that the matriarchy always builds some sort of reddit, which is to say the female hujra, pointless-blather-house is much of a historical necessity ; much like how the matriarchy's annoyance at ~what trump represents~ necessarily expressed itself in terms of fantastic "rape".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, if they have a controversy it means they exist rite ?
asciilifeform: the sop algo, aha.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557039 << this was a major point of contention during previous elections. guy published (ridiculous, web based xss) flaw in their voting thing, everyone threw a hissy fit☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 16:01 asciilifeform: ^ argentina mandates diebold voting machine and proclaims that publication of flaws is punishable
asciilifeform: i can picture some schmuck in casa rosada going, roughly, 'догоним и перегоним америку !'
asciilifeform: i wonder, did they actually import american hardware, or contracted to have own, 'industria argentina' dieboldtrons birthed ?
mircea_popescu: the schmuck in casa rosada is very much a dmitry ovsyannikov.
asciilifeform: 'TLDR: all of computing is a hoax. You can't compare a hoax to nothing. You can only compare it to all the other hoaxes.'
asciilifeform: wat.
deedbot: http://thewhet.net/2016/the-best-things-in-eulora-are-grimy/ << The Whet - The Best Things in Eulora are Grimy
asciilifeform: 'Urbit is a total scamcoin. It's 100% premined TLDR: yeah. But at least it's not the DAO.'
mircea_popescu: the department of "here's words, they don't mean anything"
asciilifeform: eh back to the pickpockets; there is a difference between crackpot and charlatan.
mircea_popescu: there is a difference if and only if the difference can be shown.
trinque: what does what he believes in "his true self" matter?
trinque: is the timecube guy not lying?
asciilifeform: 0 to do with 'inner selves'
asciilifeform: but with the physical props of the chumpatron.
mircea_popescu: how do you aim to extract difference between crackpot and charlatan from examination of physical reality ?
asciilifeform: charlatan leaves behind corpses.
mircea_popescu: i am very much interested in this method, because i guess it could be extended to distinguish malicious from stupid slavegirls
mircea_popescu: ex post facto ? that's not much of a distinction.
asciilifeform: it isn't an earth-shakingly useful distinction, except in situations where you have a finite length of rope and gotta decide who goes first.
asciilifeform: in re thread from coupla days ago, i was somewhat surprised to discover that a recent homomorphatron scam, 'cryptoleq', is now promoted in a buncha places, incl. pediwikia, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer#Cryptoleq and probably elsewhere ) .
asciilifeform: based on the most obvious scheme, that i toyed with as a student, paillier (see oooooold l0gz)
asciilifeform: problem is that paillier dun multiply. or turingate at all.
asciilifeform: now guess how author 'solves.'
asciilifeform: (i was only able to see 'solution' from the shithub code, the paper is everywhere paywalled. and this somehow passes as a 'source' for pediwik et al..)
mircea_popescu: does it add ?
asciilifeform: nah, it 'solves' the same way all of the imbeciles in darpa's homomorphotron pig trough 'solved.'
asciilifeform: by plain making shit up.
asciilifeform: 'this multiplies, based on this-here conjecture, we suspect it to be strong...'
mircea_popescu: but does paillier add ?
asciilifeform: and the branches take place 'in plaintext'.
asciilifeform: (which is to say, are actual branches, visible to the naked eye, based on the outcome of the magic box)
asciilifeform: paillier adds, that's all it does.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557132 << guess why "whitening" is so important for the imperials.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 18:15 asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitiously.html#c1746484 << 'little birds' tell me that this actually happened. but no proof. anyone got electron microscope and too much free time ?
asciilifeform: noshit.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you could construct a multiply ints function out of add ints
mircea_popescu: then you could construct all other math from this
mircea_popescu: after all algebra is constructive.
asciilifeform: except you need a crypto-branch.
asciilifeform: and if you had one, you'd be done.
mircea_popescu: explain this to me ?
asciilifeform: homomorphic-under-addition just means that you can take C1, C2, encrypted ints P1, P2, and get C3, encrypted sum, that decrypts later to the correct sum of P1+P2
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: you cannot turingate with this, alone.
mircea_popescu: if my job is to obtain C1 * C2 I will chain it : ask A to produce P1 + P1 ; ask B to add P1 to his result. ask C to add P1 to that result and so on.
asciilifeform: instead, you would need something like F(C1, C2, C3) == P3 + max(P1, P2).
asciilifeform: this does not exist.
asciilifeform: and quite likely cannot exist.
mircea_popescu: what's the problem though ?
asciilifeform: make me a branch.
asciilifeform: you gotta have a branch.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what you're on about. again : i want to multiply C1 by C2. I fire up the UCI, i ask C2 processes to add C1 to the result of the previous process adding C1 to the result of the...
asciilifeform: ~how many times~ to 'add C1' ??
mircea_popescu: C2
asciilifeform: this dun work with paillier. or any other known scheme.
mircea_popescu: ...
mircea_popescu: are you actually reading what i say or should i just stop ?
asciilifeform: read. several times.
mircea_popescu: let's try once more. so, I want to multiply 3 by 3. suppose the encrypted form of 3 is fgh.
mircea_popescu: i ask you to add fgh to fgh. you come back with qwe
mircea_popescu: i ask trinque to add fgh to qwe
mircea_popescu: he reports tty
mircea_popescu: i decrypt tty and have my 9.
asciilifeform: this is a card trick, not crypto.
mircea_popescu: because ?
asciilifeform: if you're locked in a room with'em, and see all of the steps, they know the 3.
mircea_popescu: don't CALL THINGS THINGS. show. don't tell. this isn't bad fanfic hour.
mircea_popescu: huh ?
asciilifeform: well they know that there were 3 additions.
mircea_popescu: maybe i ask a bunch of decoys
mircea_popescu: in other words : paillier in UCI over gossipd seems capable of bignum.
asciilifeform: this is rather like the 'send the new key and signature in one shot' thread. crypto that dun work if the enemy watches both of your hands, ain't crypto.
asciilifeform: promise, not protocol.
mircea_popescu: how is it like ?
asciilifeform: would you still think that rsa were strong, if it sufficed to, say, collect 90% of the ciphertext that's left your house, to derive the privkey ?
mircea_popescu: this is a very abstruse spoke off an interesting discussion. i dun really want to follow it. can we get back to the point ?
asciilifeform: aite. (i dun even dispute that a scheme where multiple parties are used for obfuscatory/smoke purposes ~can be useful~ - but it is not crypto in the normal sense. stego, perhaps.)
mircea_popescu: the scheme presented isn't in any sense what you describe.
asciilifeform: how not ? if i know that you delegated a total of 3 ops, i know that your multiplicand is <= 3.
asciilifeform: (and we still have not arrived at the question of how to branch)
mircea_popescu: but you can't know that i'm multiplying
asciilifeform: it isn't that i can say, with 100% certainty, that you multiplied; it is that i have != 0 bits of info re what you might be doing.
asciilifeform: this is a problem.
mircea_popescu: this is an illusion.
mircea_popescu: you present to yourself that you do, because you wish to. but in practice, you do not.
mircea_popescu: from the fact that A asks B to p-add P1 and P1 you can not distinguish whether P1 is being multiplied or added. that you can't distinguish between these two means you have 0 bits, not > 0 bits.
asciilifeform: if you know the total set of A-asked-B, you can put bounds on what was done.
mircea_popescu: except you can never know that total set.
mircea_popescu: this is a stronger guarantee than what rsa offers, incidentally.
asciilifeform: it is no guarantee of any kind.
asciilifeform: (neither has, of course, rsa.)
asciilifeform: crypto that dun work inside a 100% surrounded castle is not crypto.
mircea_popescu: it is. in order for you to get the whole set you must a) break rsa keys as numerous as the whole set and b) magically intercept all communications, even those happening outside of any set that includes you.
mircea_popescu: so its strength really is n*rsa + x
asciilifeform: this gedankenexperiment strikes me as quite similar to the one where you 'defeat' 2nd law of thermo. by dumping heat into a black hole, and similar.
mircea_popescu: i dun follow ?
mircea_popescu: http://blog.jim.com/culture/why-women-get-tattooed/#comments << in other news, holy shit check out the ream of experts in women.
asciilifeform: scheme that relies on a and b, in besieged castle, to communicate with a non-besieged C, is not crypto.
asciilifeform: let's temporarily leave this part for later, and posit that mircea_popescu can both add and multiply homomorphically, via whatever means. i'd like to hear how he carries out the branching.
phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
trinque: mircea_popescu is afaik proposing the communication of these is encrypted; asciilifeform is seeing them transmitted in teh bare
mircea_popescu: i'm not interested in the branching, will be happy to have a bignum machine that's securely separable via uci.
trinque: if not I don't see how alf says every single comm between all peers gets intercepted readably
mircea_popescu: trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the gossipd spec.
mircea_popescu: for all i know the guy has a point ; but we've not to date managed to put it in terms i can read.
asciilifeform: i would rather leave it as exercise to the patient reader, mircea_popescu et al, than press it
asciilifeform: either it will make sense - or not
asciilifeform: 'chewing scenery' - will not help.
trinque: this metaphor fart fog is ridicuous
mircea_popescu: anyway - we shall never again find ourselves "in a closed castle".
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental strategical choice, and it is not getting reviewed. which is why there isn't a geographical republic.
asciilifeform: can't speak for other folx, but i personally sit in a kettle.
mircea_popescu: this has no bearing. it was "all" not "one"
mircea_popescu: every one is always going to be representable as "in a kettle".
asciilifeform: how does this not reduce to 'all in a kettle'..?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556932 << i started chipping at the code to get the old log support working, probably a couple of days worth of work☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 23:51 mircea_popescu: btw phf did you load the old archives yet ?
mircea_popescu: alrighty.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if one "reduced" to all then set theory would be a funny place indeed.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, was this jim fellow ever invited over ?
asciilifeform: i only today dug him up...
mircea_popescu: ima leave him a comment
asciilifeform: good idea.
asciilifeform: btw i've been trying to come up with useful scheme standing on paillier, for >decade now, and if mircea_popescu writes one, i promise to read it.
mircea_popescu: i jus' did, and best i can see it is sufficient, and how we'll do stuff like rsa encryption/decryption over uci once gossipd is here.
asciilifeform: if it relies on my being able to send packet from my house without it being immediately logged, some fraction of the time, then i personally cannot much profit from the scheme.
asciilifeform: (and if i could! wouldn't need crypto at all. just shamir's secret-splitting algo...)
asciilifeform: other, unrelated observation, is that delegating computation with a homomorphotron is only +ev if you spend fewer cycles to encipher 'the question' and decipher 'the answer' than it would have taken you to carry out the entire computation in your own comp
asciilifeform: which is you you need the branch
trinque: hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes?
asciilifeform: if i have to do 6 bignum mults myself, to ask my partner to homomorphicate 1 bignum mult, i am losing.
mircea_popescu: well, here's some lulz http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/vdlxv/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: anyway, comment sent.
asciilifeform: 'the game', in that case, 'isn't worth the candles'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform packet may be logged, this dun matter.
asciilifeform: wow, d00d nuked comments entirely?!
mircea_popescu: notrly. just can't handle html.
asciilifeform: prolly the usual overcompensation for spamolade.
mircea_popescu: i think he'd greatly benefit from mp-wp, but anyway
asciilifeform: (this might be in the l0gz, but asciilifeform's own private, abortive, and ~entirely pointless attempt to 'invent bitcoin' in 2005-6 involved 'homomorphotron' (did not at the time know the term, or of anyone else's work on subj) that simulates 'martian bank' as ordinary computer program but somehow executed 'crypto-blinded' by multitude of independent machines, with the aggregate behaving correctly so long as collusion is below lampo
asciilifeform: rt's threshold)
asciilifeform: ('martian bank' being simply a naive abstraction of 'idealizes swiss bank', where money supply is constant, and i can send from account a1 can send to a2 if and only if i have the privkey for a1, and double-spend - impossible, etc.)
asciilifeform: *idealized
mircea_popescu: anyway. the main problem with the algo described being that if i want to multiply 2^2^7-1 with 2^2^11-1 i'm stuck requesting 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 discrete additions, which isn't worth doing in any possible universe.
mircea_popescu: but these have ~nothing to do with the weird objections raised.
asciilifeform: nah, this one is fixable
mircea_popescu: maybe fixable
asciilifeform: you shift-add.
asciilifeform: how do you imagine your cpu mults.
mircea_popescu: yes but even then
mircea_popescu: it could in principle end up too much back and forth.
asciilifeform: you only need log2(N) additions, to mult.
mircea_popescu: sure. log2(340282366920938463463374607431768211455) = 128. which may still be too much
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why too much
asciilifeform: 'how many bugs shall we tolerate!?' 'seven!'
mircea_popescu: the overhead is : i encrypt 1 number, and communicate 127 numbers to 127 people then their responses to 127 people.
asciilifeform: this - gets painful, quickly.
asciilifeform bbl - meat
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt
asciilifeform: i.e. one where all of the coin is premined, but allocated into 'chests', published as privkeys enciphered in such a way as to be bruteforceable with reasonable effort
asciilifeform: possibly this is analogous to eulora's 'copper' ?
asciilifeform: (i am almost wholly ignorant of how the latter mechanically works - so possibly not)
asciilifeform: the cryptographic mega-puzzler would be re how 'ck coin' could be 'provably fair' (i.e. the ciphertexts provably represent privkeys containing the entire monetary base, in aggregate )
asciilifeform: as i see it , this is not satisfactorily solvable, the author cannot prove that he did not retain a crib sheet to the keyz.
asciilifeform: (and incidentally this is a problem shared with bitcoin, which may conceivably have been authored by someone with a pill for sha2.)
asciilifeform: in very other lulz, https://archive.is/n7lSx
asciilifeform: ^ linux privesc since 2.6.22 (circa '07)
thestringpuller: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/RivestShamirWagner-timelock.pdf << is what I read back in 2012 on timelock puzzles
asciilifeform: the basic concept is at least as old as ol' capt. kidd.
asciilifeform: so no one should be excited.
thestringpuller: well the paper is from 1996, it was just intriguing how familiar to PoW it was
asciilifeform: the problem is demonstrably unsolvable in the general case.
asciilifeform: because how the fuck do you show that you have not 'pre-solved' the puzzle.
asciilifeform: whatever form it takes.
asciilifeform: 'proof of work', like 'symmetric crypto', does not in fact have a protocolic (vs promisetronic) existence !
asciilifeform: to put it in more familiar frame, there is no way to prove that the majority of the bitcoin hash rate is not in fact happening on a pocket comp.
asciilifeform: in some closet.
thestringpuller: iirc this was in 2012 logs, cause i remember you saying similar situation to "nLockTime" (altho we discovered more turds there upon further inspection)
asciilifeform: there is no 'trapdoor problem' for which 'intrinsic hardness' has been demonstrated.
asciilifeform: and quite likely there can be none.
asciilifeform: (for one thing, the actual existence of trapdoors has not been demonstrated.)
thestringpuller: you can't prove the trap door function doesn't exist cause you can't prove you don't know the keys to the puzzle
asciilifeform: the burden of proof is on whoever asserts existence.
thestringpuller: the only way to do that would be through some kinda consensus mechanism
thestringpuller: everyone involved somehow consents the puzzle is legit...
asciilifeform: ~appears~ to do so.
asciilifeform: if i owned the closet hasher, i would also carry right along 'consenting', aha.
ben_vulpes: but for how long?
thestringpuller: well isn't solving a block the same as finding a time delay crypto puzzle?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: until dead ?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: 'locktime' has 0 to do with crypto
ben_vulpes: wait, misunderstood. hasher, not pill.
asciilifeform: it was a feature that derps pretend is in bitcoin, but never made it in, made fools of themselves
thestringpuller: i kno that. we discussed in 2012. 4 year discussion now eh?
asciilifeform: because nobody reads the motherfucking code.
thestringpuller: point being seems like solution to trap door is similar to distributed PoW
asciilifeform: not even.
asciilifeform: there exists no proof that finding, e.g., sha2 collision, MUST take ~C cycles per.
thestringpuller: Ah. Atomically. Def. That's in the paper.
thestringpuller: "We have also discussed a
thestringpuller: way to use trusted agents to eciently enable timed release crypto "
asciilifeform: snore.
asciilifeform: aficionados of 'trusted agent' - straight to paypalschwitz.
asciilifeform: into the ovens.
thestringpuller: Yea. hence brokenness. all a snore indeed.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the (very old) gedankenexperiment concerned 'what if solving hashes is substantially cheaper than we chumps believe it to be, and promulgator of the coin knows the pill'
asciilifeform: it is a form of theoretically-undetectable 'premine'.
mircea_popescu: http://blog.jim.com/culture/how-to-not-be-offensive/#comment-1442563 << dpood ever show up ?
asciilifeform: notyet
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557293 << the question eschewed, of course, is why "modern". and what;s it supposed to mean. very strange sort of amateur anthropology.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 20:18 phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
mircea_popescu: anyway. when i was a kid, tattoos meant a thing and that thing only : she fucks. there exists no majority age in romania, a girl's a woman the moment she starts doing it, which can happen as early as 12, though as a rule it's more around 15.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, no hymen = fair game. and as there was need for easy visual identification to know whom to invite to parties... the sluts got inked.
mircea_popescu: this i suspect is the ancient, tribal, functional usage. "modern" my left foot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was there a typical tat ?
asciilifeform: (for this purpose)
mircea_popescu: well some things were important, such as : did she get it somewhere her parents might see ?
phf: sort of like notches on spitfires
mircea_popescu: sort-of.
mircea_popescu: but this is from a very insular culture, where for instance lesbos had it very easy : "does she wear anklet ? talk to her."
phf: asciilifeform: do you have some of your very old logs, can you grep for "sawdust in the gearbox, apparently timeless." and let me know what timestamp on that is?
asciilifeform: phf: 1sec
mircea_popescu: also at a time and place where listening to depeche mode wasn't merely happenstance but more cultural identification and political statement than a trump tshirt
mircea_popescu: and i'd have busted your face on the street.
asciilifeform: phf: Apr 25 17:36:18
phf: would you also happen to remember which timezone that would be? :D
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, they never got semantic, a la ru prison tattoos. most girls got what today'd be called "tribal" shit
asciilifeform: phf: EST
phf: kk
mircea_popescu: ie non-figurative stylisized pattern
asciilifeform: (answering 'what year' is O(N) because idiocy)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in so far as i can tell, modern american tatoo is ~always ~meaningless.
asciilifeform: even among prisoners, there are only 2-3 usefully distinct types.
mircea_popescu: not really. facedots get circles once you finally got the fucker, for isntance.
phf: there's an hour disparity between mp's tmsr-logs and btcbase, so i need to figure that one out..
asciilifeform: phf: they dun have dst in mircea_popesculandia
mircea_popescu: i don't use summer right
phf: oh right gmt uses daylight
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what was the face-busting cultural identification earlier ?
mod6: DM shirt
mod6: rightly so
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: but on whom
asciilifeform: hungarians ?
asciilifeform: communists ?
asciilifeform: jewmasons ?
mircea_popescu: also for the sake of humanity, "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" is a broken sentence. a teleology is any theory of purpose in realia. so you could say "any attempt if describing the teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" or "the teleology of this phenomena should be expressed in terms of" etc. it dun work like "description" or "philosophy", it works like for "substance" or "relevancy".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform faggots.
asciilifeform: aah
mircea_popescu: see, pre 2000, romania had VERY strong antibodies against what jim&friends discuss in that turkey article.
mircea_popescu: much as the muslim world also does.
asciilifeform: in ru -- still
mircea_popescu: actually i recall ru went through a very acute phase
asciilifeform: much to the lament of jurov et al
mircea_popescu: a sort of localbrew punk/skinhead of the 70s
mircea_popescu: spooked the party even
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557323 << possibly the implication of wot not fully digested as of yet.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 20:28 trinque: hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557353 << well, it's sad, but i can't say i'm disappointed, because i had no expectation otherwise. the psychology of the alt-coin purveyor is very much as exemplified by that covertress chick : ambitious, mommy told her she's special which she believes, and "problems" "can always be overcome". preferably - by someone else. you know, what's washington gonna do about it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 22:49 asciilifeform: unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt
mircea_popescu: these aren't usually the same people as come up with anything worth reading.