log☇︎
273 entries in 0.748s
asciilifeform: and a++ z80 !
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: erry die from z80 up has 'large rectangular' , them's the cache srams.
OriansJ: bvt: well believe it not; previously most architectures were easy to encode by hand (PDP-11, PDP-10, Vax, 6502, z80, 8086) but MIPS changed the game by showing with high enough languages one can be brain dead in regards to human understanding of the encoding rules and squeeze a drop of extra performance out.
asciilifeform: it aint a z80, thing is finite yes, but coupla MB of state .
asciilifeform: sorta why people still occasionally bother to bake 'si on saphire' etc rather than 'hey let's tandem 9000 konsoomer z80'
asciilifeform: ( this one also existed for cp/m and z80 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja have 1 on yer jupiter or what was that ro z80 thing
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty typical; consider why ro and ddr 'z80' still found in ru fleamarkets
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in 'mit phuctor'-style lulzattempts at thefts from republic, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vL8Rj/?raw=true << d00d implements keccak for z80, and naturally claims great 'invention', where , e.g., 'new meaning to retrocomputing-based perfect forward secrecy. In the contemporary concern about tampering and traps in our computing devices...'
a111: Logged on 2018-12-26 00:25 asciilifeform: z80 of course not only costs fiddycents, but ~still made~ , and so has been photographed errywhere, prolly even in zimbabwe. whereas there's maybe 50 'ivory' remaining total.
asciilifeform: z80 of course not only costs fiddycents, but ~still made~ , and so has been photographed errywhere, prolly even in zimbabwe. whereas there's maybe 50 'ivory' remaining total. ☟︎
asciilifeform: density of 'ivory' is around 4x that of z80.
asciilifeform: ( e.g. 6502, had ~3.5k, z80 - ~8.5 )
a111: Logged on 2018-12-01 20:47 asciilifeform: which ? where they baked z80 clone ?
asciilifeform: but nato could amortize cost of that z80 by selling in atari.
asciilifeform: hey bulgaria even smaller, but did also build z80
asciilifeform: which ? where they baked z80 clone ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( esp. considering that the transistors were placed by machine to begin with, so they aint in any human-comprehensible order like they are on z80 or 6502 etc )
mircea_popescu: remember back when they had folks who went to school ? "elite" husband-and-wife team could bake a great z80 game over a summer, and so on.
asciilifeform: z80 is a much larger-featured item, so not directly applicable. 386/486 is the ticket.
asciilifeform: ( about our fyootoor machine, if i live long enuff, rather than z80 )
asciilifeform: and it was moar about the chipset than z80 per se, now that i revisit it
a111: Logged on 2018-11-16 17:32 asciilifeform: ( i actually have a b00k by orig designer of z80, where he actually walks through the die, transistor by transistor, as if it were picasso )
asciilifeform: ( i actually have a b00k by orig designer of z80, where he actually walks through the die, transistor by transistor, as if it were picasso ) ☟︎
mircea_popescu believes "handmade" and "art" to be unrelated ; one can have industrial art (such as, eminently, the z80, and such as very much NOT warhola's crapolade)
asciilifeform: ( rsa on z80, 6502, etc. is ~nonstarter, even if one 'banks' the address lines to give enuff mem, the 8bit buggers lack a multiplier, so you get 'egyptian' speed )
mircea_popescu: nobody with the "smart"phones ever does, which is i guess the living proof of why "smart" phones are for dumb people and the z80 was smart even tho it didn't LABEL ITSELF SUCH
asciilifeform: 'A long time ago, in the late eighties, I myself tried to develop such a system, on a home-made 68K with a cp/m executive (the file system was on a second, z80 processor, that had a floppy drive). It's name was 'li' meaning a half lisp (but it had a simple, non-optimizing JIT compiler that directly generated 68K code)...' << this is at least the 3rd fella i've corresponded with who 'i tried to build lispm in '80s out of 68k'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your offsetting rotates (as e.g. ram on z80) or truncates? ( when message is shifted beyond the buffer bound ) ?
asciilifeform: for all i know, you could match 'z80' performance with simply modified cathode tube where the beam steers depending on what the state of the phosphor under it was, rather than moving in linear rasters.
asciilifeform: btw -- and iirc we had the thread -- there are even deeper crackpotteries potentially in the mix : it is possible to have strictly magnetic logic, without semiconductor. if can simply etch fine metal mask, interleaved with insulator, potentially can have a kind of slow 'z80' from miniature toroid logic (as seen in '60s su)
BingoBoingo: Well, we could always try seeing how the Chicoms price modern Z80 implemented in cultured pig neurons
mircea_popescu: if i wanted the center caret of z80 rotated 90 degrees and printed, i could not get this done.
mircea_popescu: a universal tsmr cpu, even if nothing more than miniaturized/updated z80, would prolly be the one gain here. so we end up with a commodity part to put in things.
asciilifeform: z80 ditto
BingoBoingo: And sometimes Z80
mircea_popescu remembers the good old days when parsing was done ~by the keyboard~, as in the z80 basic.
mircea_popescu: so anyway, if you find a z80 with that beta on it, you got a genuine ro made item.
asciilifeform: ideal cryptotron would have simply empty socket, bring yer own z80, specificityofdiddling, hah.
asciilifeform: http://www.vaxman.de/projects/Z80_mini/overall.jpg << example minimal z80 made by current-day fanatic
asciilifeform: ( for some conceivable applications, z80 remains more than adequate, and will remain so 50y from nao -- e.g. otp crypto, lamport, potentially -- btc walleting, etc )
asciilifeform: btw i still haven't tracked down a ro-made z80, most of my collection is from ddr
asciilifeform: z80 was an unfathomable luxury, from the pov of the calculator folx
mircea_popescu: the golden age of the z80 games was principally driven by the fact that an intellectual unit (at the time, one guy + one gal) could churn out a game per season. most of the great "studios" of the time were this, coupla married math teachers.
asciilifeform: compared to life with this orc box, mircea_popescu was tsar and god with his z80 . but , behold, even in 100bytes you can do things.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-23 17:26 mircea_popescu: if and only if everyone's in chains, then and then only can you be entirely sure nobody's linked two z80 chips together and cycling "alf is a pooperhead" back and forth between them.
mircea_popescu: if and only if everyone's in chains, then and then only can you be entirely sure nobody's linked two z80 chips together and cycling "alf is a pooperhead" back and forth between them. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( once in a veeeery long time, asciilifeform runs into some land-that-time-forgot where a greybeard owns the building and there are motherfucking blisterpacked z80's, 6502's, etc. hanging there, in dark yellowed plastic, since 1982... )
asciilifeform: ever listen to those z80 micro tapes in '80s
a111: 222 results for "z80", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=z80
asciilifeform: !#s z80
mircea_popescu: and with a well compressed, angry item like the z80, there's plenty of such "accidentally caught glimpse of santa naked" events
a111: Logged on 2017-12-13 19:30 mircea_popescu: (z80 thing when reset will munge the "videocard" such as it is, resulting in a pattern brieflydisplaying)
mircea_popescu: (z80 thing when reset will munge the "videocard" such as it is, resulting in a pattern brieflydisplaying) ☟︎
mircea_popescu discovered xor while trying to make z80 gfx as a 7-8-9yo.
mircea_popescu: prince of persia for z80 basically. epic for the 80s
mircea_popescu: (this is 99% of what they did, even the z80 clones were intended for production line control, which it was hard to get one at home0
asciilifeform: z80 was pre-vlsi item. think early '70s.
mircea_popescu: he likes the z80 for the same reasons in the same way. and other obsolete matter.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1735222 << returning briefly upstack, there's a 'seekrit' bit of hilarity : usg actually moving away from old, classic 'z80-style' dies, and into 'let's have modern density, so we can run javaturds, let ibm make 'space-grade' ppc , etc -- but that's ok, we'll use 8 in tandem ' ☝︎
asciilifeform: in the 'logical' sense , original z80 was only ~recently~ publicly reversed
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732711 << of course. back in the z80 days the whole memory could be printed out, wouldn't even take a whole book. more like what today passes for one, ie 40-50 pages' worth. ☝︎
asciilifeform: hm i distinctly recall a thread where mircea_popescu and z80
asciilifeform: i'm not aware of a swiss-made z80 set having existed
mircea_popescu: i had to have custom fucking made kbd replacement put into teh old style timisoara-made z80 clones
a111: Logged on 2017-11-03 15:53 asciilifeform: http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/easteurope_ro.html#cobra << hilariously and unsurprisingly, ro z80 clone had better keyboard than today's 3000+ $ crapbooks etc
asciilifeform: http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/easteurope_ro.html#cobra << hilariously and unsurprisingly, ro z80 clone had better keyboard than today's 3000+ $ crapbooks etc ☟︎
asciilifeform: FG will work with, e.g., pdp8, sov. bk0010, romanian z80 clone mircea_popescu played strip poker on, but apparently not with recent pc on recent centos...
mircea_popescu: shit's not gonna be reading any ssds, dvds, etcs, so why the fuck is my 2gb sample of two girls fucking each other's ass on the brandemburg expressed in z80 units.
asciilifeform: i like z80. like 6502 even moar
mircea_popescu: there is ~no benefit in maintaining a "quarter byte" antiquated notion, this isn't the museum of Z80 computing science.
BingoBoingo: <fromloper> Unfortuatly potential customers are most likely using Intel + Microsoft. Also in US we have Trump now. World sucks, but still need to live in it. << What's wrong with Z80 and Motorola 68k and Make Computing Great Again(TM)(R)
mircea_popescu: it's important to de-equivocate dumb ; there's two kinds of machine that may be casually referred to as dumb : one that is very slow (eg, z80) / one that is very demanding on the programmer (eg, windows). good programmer wouldn't really call z80 dumb, bad programmer wouldn't really call windows dumb. this directly translates to humans, there's a kind of dumb the incompetent identify mostly disjunct from the kind of dumb the c
asciilifeform: it (even now!) makes a z80. and bunch of truly own weirdo cpu.
mircea_popescu: gee. how big is a 22nm z80 lol
asciilifeform: and z80 worx ok in 22nm.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-13 00:13 asciilifeform: !~later tell phf i dug out my crate of dead bolix boards, turns out i'm a chump, the pcb in question was a dead xl1200 ~i/o~ board. the only cpu on it is what looks like a z80! 0 smbx silicon.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-13 00:13 asciilifeform: !~later tell phf i dug out my crate of dead bolix boards, turns out i'm a chump, the pcb in question was a dead xl1200 ~i/o~ board. the only cpu on it is what looks like a z80! 0 smbx silicon.
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf i dug out my crate of dead bolix boards, turns out i'm a chump, the pcb in question was a dead xl1200 ~i/o~ board. the only cpu on it is what looks like a z80! 0 smbx silicon. ☟︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-17 00:21 asciilifeform: to possibly squeeze something useful from thread: as i understand, a lamport-based 'trb-i' ~could~ run on z80.
asciilifeform: (though for n00bz i will point out, c compilers as a class did not get much play in the z80 days, because everybody programmed in asm (well, in codes, most folx asmed on paper , by hand)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-08 05:22 phf: asciilifeform: http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html "An 8080/Z80 C Compiler"
phf: asciilifeform: http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html "An 8080/Z80 C Compiler" ☟︎
asciilifeform: it is part of why i have continued and daily interest in z80, 6502, and other 'museum pieces'
asciilifeform: phf: aha. the z80 is ~decorative on such a box.
phf: https://github.com/dekuNukem/fap80 z80 based computer
asciilifeform: to possibly squeeze something useful from thread: as i understand, a lamport-based 'trb-i' ~could~ run on z80. ☟︎
asciilifeform: you can also make z80 comp over weekend.
asciilifeform: btw there is one possibly interesting detail. there appears to be a large (how large, i have nfi) set of folks who publish ~actual~ work openly (recently i was on a kick of collecting 6502 and z80 design variations, adapted for present-day component availability for glue logic) and found a wealth of quality (as in, you lay it out on breadboard and it WORX) material. with multi-decade (yes) discussion.
asciilifeform: in quite unrelated lulz, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/z80.htm
asciilifeform: the z80 in my old toyota -- worked for 20+ yrs and probably worx even nao
asciilifeform: both scripting langs are turdalicious, heavy, and ill-defined. i will point out that 8-bit rom basics were seldom >4kB (e.g., 6502, z80 )
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 10:54 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582433 << you know z80 editor was modal. caps shift an' symbol shift beotch!!1
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582433 << you know z80 editor was modal. caps shift an' symbol shift beotch!!1 ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: commodore (with the exception of the weirdo dual-cpu variant of the '128', and an expander cartridge for 64 ) -- never sold a z80
mircea_popescu: nah, z80, usually as a commodore
asciilifeform: you can sign tx with a z80.
mircea_popescu: like it makes sense now to reverse z80
mircea_popescu: yes, but a z80 clone chip is no sort of fpga forcrying out loud.
asciilifeform grew up with 6502 (well, 6510, commodore) rather than mircea_popescu's z80, so it is dear to him