mod6: baby, i've got a fever.
lobbesbot: mod6: Sent 5 hours and 24 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> i get eggog '#trilema-mod6 (Channel is invite only)'
mod6: and the only cure is MOAR COWBELL
asciilifeform: in other entomo-horrors, https://archive.li/yNOSl << for all i ever said in defense of this d00d -- will have to take it back; he's gone full tard
asciilifeform: !#s locklin
a111: 69 results for "locklin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=locklin
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, sadly in some fields there's only enumerable stable states, once not-in-1, then-in-other becomes unavoidable.
asciilifeform: he ~could~ have gone to build toyota engines !1
mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me the piece is pure wank, "here's things i say about women i supposedly fucked in the hope anyone reading thinks i ever get laid".
mircea_popescu: dude suffered for a while from this "i don't wanna X!!!" syndrome, as if anyone was in any danger of asking anything like it. "i don't wanna go to the prom!!!" "fatty... who's asking you to ?!"
asciilifeform: i was not able to extract sense from it, reads like pure spamola
mircea_popescu: i just skimmed, saw "facebook is syphilis".
asciilifeform: bonus: the item he linked as dayjob, is ~indistinguishable from dogecoin
asciilifeform: ( crackpot browser with micropay-somethingorother built in )
asciilifeform: bonuslulz : 'I’d posit that any blockchain type who can’t find productive employment on socially useful projects or isn’t in danger of financial independence either doesn’t feel like working, doesn’t care about money or doesn’t actually know anything about blockchain. In the former cases you can’t recruit them, and in the latter case, you really shouldn’t.'
asciilifeform: 'blockchain type' didjaknow
mircea_popescu: anyway, lulzy that his links are https://archive.li/o/yNOSl/https://youexec.com/dev/2017/1/14/google-facebook-ads-traffic-is-useless rather than trilema.com/2015/heres-what-you-dont-know-or-understand-about-facebook-everything/ trilema.com/2015/facebook-sends-traffic11eleven/ etcetera, even though only some of the authors are experts in the field ; but then again ever since i knew him it was obvious he prefers the johny come
mircea_popescu: lately clueless dweebs to the original works.
mircea_popescu: anyways, whatever. who cares about yet another "52 M Dom" fetlife profile ? he never was more than that.
asciilifeform: veerry long time ago he had pieces re scams, usg grantolade lulz, etc.
asciilifeform: seemed like clever honest d00d.
asciilifeform: i have him filed in my head as a victim of the 'goldbug disease' (i.e. pissed that btc stole 'their' lightning, in idjit tilt and consorting with enemy ever since )
mircea_popescu: "sadly, in some fields there's only enumerable stable states, once not-in-1, then-in-other becomes unavoidable." there's no such thing as clever honest man-alone.
asciilifeform: not detectably, at any rate
asciilifeform allows for theoretical possibility of honest folx writing 'into desks'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-04-16#-9192 << has an answer meanwhile. "has learned ~something~, is now preoccupied with traffic and dumb shit like that".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2013-04-16 16:41 mircea_popescu: i wonder if he learns by it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, how are they to ~stay~ in the state ? see, that's the thing, "free floating hydrogen" as a theoretical possibility. sure, why not. "free floating hydrogen as a STABLE STATE"... well... no such theoretical possibility. it can't be a stable state for very clear reasons.
mircea_popescu: in vitro, purified virus is essentially a large molecule, as inert as salt. in vivo... what do you mean purified, and what do you mean inert.
mircea_popescu: either it's in the process of killing the host or else in the process of getting pissed out ; there's no third.
asciilifeform: the h can float for a while; it isn't as if intelligent heathen will find mircea_popescu by reading arsebook/nyt/whichever volkischer beobachter
mircea_popescu: certainly.
mircea_popescu: then again, unlike the various jew outlets, mircea_popescu actually dominates the portions of the empire where the empire tries or is forced to interact with reality
mircea_popescu: eg, mocky found this place because ~searched~, on hitler's own "artificially intelligent" zek-bubbler.
asciilifeform: oh hah interesting
mircea_popescu: because the portions where the bubbler is ran by algorithm, mircea_popescu owns.
mircea_popescu: and there's a necessary portion that has to always run that way (also per goedel).
mircea_popescu: and so on.
mircea_popescu: the problem of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817790 has a very ready converse, as i'm sure you realised.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-23 17:26 mircea_popescu: if and only if everyone's in chains, then and then only can you be entirely sure nobody's linked two z80 chips together and cycling "alf is a pooperhead" back and forth between them.
asciilifeform late evening, listening to elderly ukrs derp on shortwave re horror of their neet chillunz derping on ipnojes; where to read re antennae design; putin.
mircea_popescu: (re hydrogen, for the young'uns : the only stable state in material system of universe is black hole. which is why black hole is even important theoretically -- universe having stable state means it won't last)
mircea_popescu: speaking of which : most large black holes have average densities lower than water. anyone care to explain why, as a 5th grade geometry olympiad problem ?
Mocky: my guess is due to large volume of event horizon
mircea_popescu: this is not acceptable olympiad solution format.
mircea_popescu: "volume is third power proportion of radius ; [schwarzschild] radius is first power proportion of mass ; therefore mass divided by volume is 2nd power inverse proportion of mass"
Mocky: is that like jeapardy format, "what is 4/3 pi r^3?"
Mocky: but wait a minute, your answer doesnt explain why large black holes have average densities lower than water
mircea_popescu: why not ? if density is f(1/m^2) you can pick a m large enough for any arbitrary low density you wish.
Mocky: ah I see it
Mocky: what is bubbler in zek-bubbler?
mircea_popescu: (in some models there's an upper bound on black hole size about 10^40 or so, but w/e, let's not get THAT technical)
mircea_popescu: Mocky, the general purpose of google / the rest of the imperial attempts at colonizing the web revolve around the exact http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1733995 process, except built out of "your interests" rather than plastic.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-08 14:30 mircea_popescu: build vacupack units, keep them fed with biomaterial (plastic, schmucks), dump the results at sea. a 100tdw ship should be able to carry 1mn of the shitheads at a time.
Mocky: I've noticed lately that google has some results that it damn well doesn't want to give me... all the results say "missing search term" for what ever I searched for, even when I put a + infront. but it *has* my results and if i repeat the search term 3 or for times in the query eventually relents and shows me
danielpbarron: don't black holes emit radiation? and does that make them not stable?
Mocky: like the search term was just a mild suggestion, will show if feels like it, or better yet ad from sponsor
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, only when eating.
mircea_popescu: Mocky, you realise, everyone's model revolves around wrapping zeks. it's just that the democrats are (mostly, unexamiedly) partialists while we're absolutists.
lobbes: In other "the logs had it first", I just investigated a barf I received on an emerge and exclaimed "who are these orcs@gentoo.org that are masking gcc < 5.4??". I must've missed this thread entirely >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-30#1761183☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-30 19:55 trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SNOOi/?raw=true << gcc-4.9.4 OFFICIALLY!!1!1! deprecated by gentoo bureaucrats
mircea_popescu: but anyway, since we're doing astrophysics : the largest conceivable power plant / ecological disaster would be, of course, collapsing galactic objects (ie, stars) into galaxy cores (ie, black holes, practically). for instance, pushing the sun into saggitarius would conceivably yield a gross of about 10^40 or so J in a relatively short timespan. certainly wouldn't cost as much. (an intermediate step to this being http://trile
mircea_popescu: ma.com/2016/how-to-fix-global-warming/ of course)
danielpbarron: not only. there are supposed to be particle + anti-particle pairs showing up all over space, in most cases instantly colliding to produce energy for the next pair to form, except when spawned on the event horizon and only one falls in
Mocky: i'm not seeing the partial seems like trying full integration
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, that is powered by the black star's angular mommentum. only noob black stars have any angular mommentum
mircea_popescu: (in fact, the predicate for "Get a lot of mass in a little bit of volume" is entirely "push out a whole lot of angular mommentum")
mircea_popescu: Mocky, they're not disposing of the bodies.
Mocky: ahhhhh, that kind of absolutism
mircea_popescu: yes. democracy fails to account externalities as a matter of course. see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-14#1783773 thread☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-14 14:22 mircea_popescu: MEANWHILE, however, they have 100% unaccounted for the time externality. so basically it's a contest consisting of a guy without legs going about finding fault with people's fingers. because he's decided "legs don't count", and so as he has much better hands than the rest of those losers he should be captain of the football team.
Mocky: fails to account because blinded by fantasy beliefs
mircea_popescu: nah, not at all. fails to account definitionally, that's what it is. the fantasies are empty niche exploitation, coming much later.
mircea_popescu: (sleep is a similar item -- it originally appeared as a learned behaviour to conserve energy and lower capture risk ; as it provided a niche CNS growth parasitized it, and so now oyu need to sleep though your fridge is full and there's no preditors threatening you)
mircea_popescu: just so -- since socialism (or democracy, whatever, no difference between these terms) offers the "we'll ignore half the shit anyway" niche, the fantasy beliefs found a welcoming place to stay.
Mocky: maybe blinded by pretense is a better way to say it then
mircea_popescu: first blind, then pretense, because why not. http://trilema.com/2015/prophylaxis/#footnote_7_62778
mircea_popescu: understand what's at stake here : your theory proposes socialism is curable. no such luck irl, or in seinfeld's words, "when he's dead, he'll be relieved."
Mocky: i see that my theory does propose that, yet I've never seen a socialist cured
mircea_popescu: and if you had, i'd just say "he never really was"
Mocky: no true scotsman
mircea_popescu: this is the hitch uniting http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817337 and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1818277 : the observation that hte only functionally useful labels are ex-post-facto.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-23 03:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817310 << fucking can't have 1600s style "examinations on the doctrine of the faith", chiefly because of goedel's objection. our doctrine is not actually either complete or coherent.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-24 18:22 mircea_popescu: this is the sort of objection that can only be resolved by historians.
mircea_popescu: Mocky, the problem with scotsman fallacy is that there's an unresolved duality. i don't propose that one's a) a scotsman for being born of scottish woman and AT THE SAME TIME b) a scotsman because not an irredeemable asshole. i'm just going with b, and that's logically sound.
mircea_popescu: and there's a healthy helping of http://trilema.com/2015/causes-and-purposes/ in all of this : if your labels are ex-post-facto, you can't futurize on their basis lest you end up like the "global warming" muppets, "projecting" on "data" abvout the past that was extrapolated from the present.
Mocky: that makes it sound like my theory could be proposing that while socialism isn't curable, maybe it can find the ones who "never really were"
mircea_popescu: if you can distinguish between those who are pretending because they're blind already anyway and it costs them nothing to pretend and those who are pretending just to fit in, then yes.
mircea_popescu: but removing the perceived positive value of fit (such as, by publicly burning "consensus" as in the imperial facade, as the republic has done) seems a large step in the right direction.
mircea_popescu: prior to empire-of-idiots colonization in the shape of "sane safe and consensual" nonsense, bdsm world rested squarely on "there's no positive value to social fit". of course it was a lot smaller then.
mircea_popescu: much like the faggots were a lot more numerous before the democratic party invaded them with a bunch of fake faggots.
mircea_popescu: a lot less numerous* i mean.
mircea_popescu: you know, pre 1980, back when gay culture was actually creative.
Mocky: what's fake faggots?
mircea_popescu: you know what tulpas are ?
Mocky: like mentally created 'persons'
mircea_popescu: right. can you explain the difference between sadism, as the clinically relevant psych term of art, and "sadism", ie, fake sadism, as the common discourse locus ?
Mocky: no, i'm not familiar with clinical sadism
mircea_popescu: alright. the recently mentioned andrei chikatilo is a textbook model. the man could not achieve an erection with either willing or unwilling partners ; he used stabbing as an erection substitute.
mircea_popescu: this is fetishism, in all cases : a ~substitute~, covering for an absence. a sadist isn't one who slaps the woman around if she talks out of turn ; nor one who enjoys pain and suffering. a sadist is one who can't function normally, and uses a highly structured substitute behaviour. these two factors, in order.
mircea_popescu: the father who can't talk to his son, but enjoys "expressing himself" through their fishing together is just as mentally broken as a proper sadist, just in a different spot of what'd be a normallty working brain.
mircea_popescu: (and these -- they're common, among white people).
mircea_popescu: now back to fake homosexuality : human sexuality is a learned behaviour. proper homosexuality is an inability to learn, akin to dyslexia or lefthandedness. fake homosexuality is the exact contrary, a lot of "what if"ism and "provemewrong"ism and so on. a social, rather than biological phenomenon.
Mocky: like that naacp 'leader' who identified as black
mircea_popescu: there's no curiosity about "what it'd be like" to stab people in the sadist ; he arrives at it, through a very personal dysfunctional process. and there's no curiosity about "what it'd be like" to "be black" or "be gay" or etcetera. when's the last time you met an african who was wondering what'd it be like to be born in africa. hurr.
mircea_popescu: (dysfunctional here isn't even a value judgement ; sexuality is a function of anatomy, a portion of phisiology, like breathing. if you're asphyxiating it doesn't follow you're a bad person thereby.)
mircea_popescu: "african-americans" however are universally "curious about what'd it be like", and for the obvious reason : they're about as african as i am.
trinque: these, the identified-as-black, hip-gay, feminist-ally and the rest, always struck me as having missed a developmental stage
mircea_popescu: anyway, prolly worth the mention, since spoke of chikatilo : he originally did two things : stabbed the victims, and enucleated them.
mircea_popescu: midway, he stopped enucleating, but kept on stabbing.
trinque: the one where they get their ass whipped by an adult male for lying
mircea_popescu: once caught, it came out that he was gouging the eyes out ~because "he had heard that the image of killer remains on body's retina"~ ; he stopped, becauise he figured out it's an old wives' tale
mircea_popescu: he somehow ~didn't~ similarily figure about stabbing young girls.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
mircea_popescu: trinque, it's my read also. retarded, in the proper sense, like 9yo that can't tie own shoes.
mircea_popescu: but i'm not persuaded by the lying-beating coupling.
mircea_popescu: violence is extremely effectual at curing high level delusions -- every "princess" reverts to sanity after a stint in the dungeon. it's not particularly effectual at curing lower level issues, beating kids for suttering doesn't work.
mircea_popescu: bedwetting, perhaps the most eminent example towards your line, also doesn't work. though conceivably hanging bedwetters would work, but in the social sense -- be rid of them.
mircea_popescu: though from experience, talking to the kid works actually a whole of a lot better. just, you need to be capable of actual talk. so hanging ~the parents~ may also be effectual.
mircea_popescu: (and no, i don't mean "talk to kids ~anbout bedwetting~, what a stupid fucking subject. i mean take them out for a sundae and do something interesting or other, whatever the spur of the moment provides.)
trinque: hmmm, I can see it. in the personal anecdote, I wasn't overflowing with loyalty for anyone either.
mircea_popescu: it's a sad state, for a kid growing up.
mircea_popescu: have nothing it'd die for, really ? why even bother growing up.
mircea_popescu: (this is the mechanism that resolves infantile cowardice, ftr : sooner or later the kid goes, "fuck it, none shall pass".)
Mocky: this next generation is going to be epic, with the way schools are now, and raised by ipads and netflix
mircea_popescu: oya.
mircea_popescu: cheapest livelihood anyone ever had.
mircea_popescu: previous discussion re leverage with alf aside ; it's a wonder if they can make one man out of 1k of the neets tied together. i have my doubts. so it's not just "need leverage" on this side -- the empire graciously provides anti-leverage out of its own meat.
mircea_popescu: 1000 dollars today, ie one 1985 dollar ; and 1:1mn leverage today, meaning you can do the work of 1k 1985 people.
Mocky: why does wrapping zeks matter?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1818431 << because they're so valuable; how could they not be☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-24 19:50 mircea_popescu: much like byzantines imagined mongols come over to steal the "true cross" because it's so fucking valuable in their eyes. because how couldn't it be. and so on.
lobbes: plus, reduces cost of keeping status quo for state
lobbes: let fantasy tulpas flourish, fighting imaginary battles for 'purposes'
trinque: seems like whatever "ruling class" the empire has missed a developmental step too
Mocky: i mean why be absolutist about it >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818515☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 03:58 mircea_popescu: Mocky, you realise, everyone's model revolves around wrapping zeks. it's just that the democrats are (mostly, unexamiedly) partialists while we're absolutists.
mircea_popescu: Mocky, well, if a problem's worth solving, it's worth solving well. neh ?
mircea_popescu: why even bother with half-ass solutions.
Mocky: right so what's the problem
mircea_popescu: there was a problem ?
mircea_popescu: or what do you mean ? problem for whom ?
trinque: I guess their fetish is more or less jars of eyes.
mircea_popescu: even stated as such!
trinque: Mocky: did you read the goo tube piece?
mircea_popescu: narcissist fantasy, "What if the whole world was powerless observers". brasil ftw.
Mocky: trinque, i don't think so
trinque: I find myself daydreaming that mircea_popescu world quite often
Mocky: link?
mircea_popescu: is it http://trilema.com/2016/the-human-latrine-pig/ ?
trinque: nah, the google heaven where everyone's in goo cylinders redditing, semiverbal dudes wandering and raping
mircea_popescu: oh oh.
mircea_popescu: i sadly dribbled it out in pieces, which i now regret. anyway, http://trilema.com/the-next-generation http://trilema.com/2016/the-darkening/ http://trilema.com/2016/the-dog/ http://trilema.com/2016/the-chosen/
trinque: Mocky: ^ read these; they're awesome, and very much "the problem"
Mocky: human latrine pig... that's definitely going to leave a mark
mircea_popescu: history you didn't know.
Mocky: oh man, this one has a pick of leisure suit larry, lmao
Mocky: brings back terrrible memories of university of maryland
mircea_popescu: i was a very happy 13yo.
Mocky: i'm going to bed
asciilifeform: lol, fellow shithole veteran!
Mocky: not vet, total semester count ... 1, more like reject
mircea_popescu: i had nfy u of m rejects anyone
asciilifeform: bottom 1/2 of (white) bell , really
Mocky: well, got in on 3 scholarships, and lost one couldn't make tuition
asciilifeform: and prolly not even this, today
Mocky: paying full out of state rate
trinque: did you learn your lesson, or go get indebted somewhere else?
Mocky: maybe would have got better grades if not found lesiure suit larry and tetris
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818606 << phunphakt, the hieroglyph, at one time came to mean simply 'household' ( 'pig' in 'house' box )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 05:17 mircea_popescu: is it http://trilema.com/2016/the-human-latrine-pig/ ?
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: ehehe
asciilifeform went on jp kick in march, ate buncha hieroglyphism
mircea_popescu: so i jsut re-read the set ; indeed it is grand. i love reading myself.
mircea_popescu: also, if it wasn't obvious, http://trilema.com/2016/the-darkening/ <-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos
Mocky: i was an idiot, got endebted elsewhere, took all the cs classes, and then quit to get a job programming
asciilifeform: Mocky: for sake of argument, what then would've been 'smart' ?
Mocky: not going into debt for a cut-rate education
mircea_popescu: oyu know, i've yet to meet the zek who has somewthing ~other~ to say about his secondary education time than "i was an idiot"
trinque: I'd have loved to have gone to an actual university.
mircea_popescu: what's the problem, you folk don't have the information superhighway where you live, can't communicate with each other, the trucks of internets don't make it, what is it.
mircea_popescu: trinque, there's something exquisitely wrong with "we all agree what we did was stupid". well... why'd you do it then ?!!?!?!?!?!?
asciilifeform: trinque: believe or not, early 2000s um cs dpt was almost 'actual uni'
mircea_popescu: especially as it's been the case for > 10 years by now
asciilifeform: but already waning then.
trinque: I left after one semester.
trinque: so I'm not bemoaning anything
Mocky: when i took data structure class, mind was blown. "you can do all this stuff with a comp and you've been teaching me for loops?"
mircea_popescu: whose class was it ?
asciilifeform: it's dead, and not only long buried, but cement was poured.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, to ask you what you asked me, "It is not clear why it needs cement poured. What, will escape ?" and to answer me what i answered you,
Mocky: can't remember
mircea_popescu: "There's a certain grace in overdoing things."
mircea_popescu: Mocky, you know, i remember my college by teacher. how else ?
asciilifeform: i can't picture how else
asciilifeform: srsly how not remember? motorcycle accident ?
mircea_popescu: that's right, shame the noob!
Mocky: can't think of name, but i can picture him, scruffy luddite
trinque: forgotten because forgettable
asciilifeform: Mocky: kruskal ?
trinque: I couldn't tell you 5% of my teacher's names
Mocky: no
Mocky: my lisp/ai teacher's first and last names were anagrams, and i *never* believed that was his real name. super weird, long white hair. craig graci
asciilifeform: '80s or when
Mocky: 90's not at college park, this was the cut-rate SUNY Oswego
asciilifeform: aaaaaa
asciilifeform: explains it.
asciilifeform: ( for the innocent -- like many american unis, um had 1 'proper' campus, and buncha ??? satellites )
trinque got invited up to mit one summer after decent ACT scores
trinque: saw those housing buildings by whatever postmodern idiot
asciilifeform: trinque: what saved you
asciilifeform: aah
trinque: literally the stupid buildings.
asciilifeform: close shave.
trinque: went to a state school instead, then left to beach-bum on their stipend money
trinque: https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2017/04/ray-maria-stata-center-frank-gehry-massachusetts-institute-of-technology-10-ten-iconic-buildings-mit-campus_dezeen_sq.jpg << for the innocent
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, kinda the baseball club model neh.
trinque: the butt-huffing even leaks into the filename there
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: lucky for trinque that they had this kunstkammer monstrosity, to make him barf in time. or think, trinque , you could be there even nao, fucking elaine shi or what was the eth chix...
trinque: http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/about-us/news/elaine-shi-named-2014-sloan-research-fellow << umd! sorry, that homely beast is all yours.
asciilifeform: iirc it got promoted
asciilifeform: ( to where, dun recall, either mit or nearby )
trinque will wash gehry and shi out with latrine pig, then to bed
asciilifeform: nighty
mircea_popescu: "Gotta eat, gotta live, gotta build the time machine." damn, this is fucking poetic.
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1817983, yes something I need to learn. My current approach is too try something and see if that's it, but I wonder if suggestions or help can be beneficial in learning this? or should all of this be self effident like baking pastries http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488189 ? I have no idea how to talk to businessmen or come even close to a make an effictive sales pitch.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-24 14:07 mircea_popescu: http://ave1.org/planding.html << this is altogether not terrible. if it's not much of a landing page, at least it's clean and legible.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 14:47 mircea_popescu: once you can make 'em it's darn obvious, and before it's impossibru and "vague" and throws fit
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1818005 <-- it's a few (2-3?) weeks away from deployability. full report: basic functionality is pretty stable now (cl-feed-parser library was throwing random errors and wasn't fittable-in-head; so I had to replace and rewrite a significant portion of the rss and atom parsing bits). I still need to implement a. self-voicing and b. an access control mechanism.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-24 15:38 trinque: I'd be happy to add it, but spyked, how's your rss bot coming along?
spyked: re a. it's occured to me a few days ago that the bot must maintain +v/-v state so that it doesn't needlessly attempt to talk in-chan before self-voicing. I intend this part to be separate from the rss bot itself and reusable.
spyked: re b. I have a rfc in the works, should be ready for publishing at the beginning of next week. this is also why I haven't disclosed the bot's name and the channel where it operates at the moment, I want to limit access to relevant bot commands to L1 and L2 only.
spyked: now, the reason why this has been taking me so long is that I hoped I would publish the pieces as I went along. but this is harder than it looked, had to write what is now unreadable (other than by myself) prototype, then (point c. on my list) I'll have to rewrite/refactor and then publish. all this despite the fact that this is "known item", not FFA.
ave1: spyked, I've seen this happening many times (the code is done, but ugly, so I cannot publish yet). I geuss there is a general process behind this. At time (a) you need some code, at time (b) you have it but the code is "ugly". At time (c) the code still works and you have little incentive to clean it up. I know only two ways to get less "ugly" code, in the time between (a) and (b) write non "ugly" code. Or at time (c) publish the code and get shamed into s
ave1: haping it up.
ave1: Or just live with it until the stress becomes big enough that you'll have to do something.
spyked: ave1, the approach in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-30#1761284 seems to work here, in many cases I learned how the proper version of some piece of code needs to look after writing it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-30 22:12 asciilifeform: to round off thread -- asciilifeform very much enjoying rewriting ( and it is , yes , a total rewrite ) ffa
spyked: but I knew how the rss bot design should look (I wrote up a draft before starting the implementation), the problem was rather fitting it up with all the "imported" elements.
ave1: It fascinating this space between
ave1: "in the head" and implemtation
spyked: so eventually I expect some of the rss bot components (e.g. command handling, self-voicing) to evolve into standalone scaffolding for #trilema bots that implements a decent subset of http://trilema.com/2016/trilema-bot-spec/
ave1: I sometimes have it all tought out and then it completely fails on writing the first couple of lines.
ave1: Also, yes, once you write it you may see how it should have been written. But I wonder if this is the first step in an infinite cycle.
ave1: Not that the cycle is not useful and the result at each round better
ave1: BTW how would you do this "I want to limit access to relevant bot commands to L1 and L2 only" ? Check if the nick has voice or download the WOT or can deedbot be queried?
spyked: as far as I can see, this first writing pass exposes incorrect assumptions about e.g. data structures and how they're used. if this keeps happening, then it might be that the problem is larger than the mind can chew on in one take.
spyked: ave1, yeah, querying deedbot is kinda what I had in mind (not sure if it can be avoided). something like
spyked: !!gettrust deedbot spyked
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: 3 by 3 connections.
spyked: and decide based on that.
Mocky: isn't that what the deedbot + voicing is for? http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818690☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 08:59 spyked: re b. I have a rfc in the works, should be ready for publishing at the beginning of next week. this is also why I haven't disclosed the bot's name and the channel where it operates at the moment, I want to limit access to relevant bot commands to L1 and L2 only.
spyked: the rationale is that there are a few O(n) operations involved (e.g. walking through the list of rss feeds) and I don't want every rando landing on Freenode to be able to abuse this (in particular for advertising sent via pm). let 'em get their own rss bot if they wanna.
Mocky: i mean seems like deedbot + voice is already keeping randos from speaking here
spyked: Mocky: methinks users should be able to talk to the bot via PM, e.g. to subscribe to feeds. the bot will permit "private" subscriptions too, iirc mircea_popescu uses this.
phf: oh man all kinds of craziness
phf: so from http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1818415 till http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818715 a111 was known as Guest51392, but didn't know its name and logged itself as a111☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-24 19:34 trinque: ahaha
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 13:04 phf: oh man all kinds of craziness
phf: back in the canonical log days, i'd patch the name in the logs, but since we're past that i think it can be left as is, unless there are objections as far as log authenticity.
ave1: I was wondering if something was wrong with my client.
phf: yeah, privmsgs are silent, so you're always making assumptions about your name. i think i have to handle NICK messages from server to know when the bot is force renamed..
asciilifeform: ave1: was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-16#1814293 ever done ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-16 13:43 ave1: BTW the aarch64 will build static but not by default, so that part I will check.
asciilifeform: i'd really like a working arm64 gnat...
phf: asciilifeform: hey, have you had further progress with the chromebook? i'm thinking of replacing my x60 with it, or rather i want to try a portable cuntoo install, without nuking existing setup
asciilifeform: phf: i did find the (quite gnarly) method to replace the built-in rsa keys with mine, and how to sign arbitrary kernels. what i did not do , is to build a proper non-googlistic uboot for it, and flash it in in place of old ( 'sapper errs once' , there doesn't seem to be any spi rom contacts brought out on the mainboard for a 2nd try if fails )
asciilifeform: and yes i also will be replacing my x60 with it, if/when i get the time to finish this to a decent state
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/forkcoin-bitcoin-gold-hit-by-51-attack/ << Qntra - Forkcoin "Bitcoin Gold" Hit By 51% Attack
asciilifeform: phf: my current understanding is that it will be able to boot the ~userland~ from my rockchip gentoo ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2295 ) as-is; will need a proper kernel tho
asciilifeform: i booted a heathen linux on the thing from the sd card, via the heathen ('press ctrl-d in 10 sec on boot or i format yer disk') nonsense, it ran.
phf: ah i see, yeah i figured it's a drop in replacement, but the uboot bit complicates the matter. uboot i take it is a boot loader, or the kernel also goes in there?
asciilifeform: loader. however google's uboot is annoying , it ~mandatorily~ looks for googlersa-signed kernel. replacing certs with own is pretty easy, but you still end up having to keep google's toolchain around in order to sign kernels, and ugh
asciilifeform: i'd like a normal, built-from-src rockchip uboot for this thing. and i worked over the pcb with magnifying glass and found a buncha debug contacts, some of which almost certainly gotta be spi rom. but -- currently no time to chase this.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/c101pa_bottom_nope.jpg << subj
phf: and i guess you're trying to replace google's uboot with a built-from-src one, that doesn't also have rsa checks etc.
asciilifeform: right, i thought i already said.
phf: i'm just repeating things for own understanding
asciilifeform: i'd like to properly degooglize the box.
trinque: while repeating things, this guy boots without closed firmware blobs?
asciilifeform: trinque: appears to.
trinque: neato
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818457 << Orange juice, chicken soup, and mangoes☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 01:07 mod6: baby, i've got a fever.
asciilifeform: and interestingly they published the src for the auxiliary microcontroller (drives kbd, battery, leds, etc) unlike any other lappy maker, and it actually builds
asciilifeform: also interestingly, they published the src for their uboot, it is theoretically possible to scrub the crapola out and rebuild. however i have not succeeded in building it.
phf: so an intermediate step that someone else could perform is to take your rockchip gentoo, generate new rsa pair, sign the kernel with pub, patch google's uboot with priv and get a clean booting rockchip gentoo setup, without accidentally bricking the device? (while still retaining known amount of google in the system)
asciilifeform: phf: correct.
phf: aight, thank you
asciilifeform: phf: i also considered looking for the key check thing in the stock bios and simply NOPing it out
asciilifeform: but turned out to be moar sweat than expected
asciilifeform: (even tho src is public)
trinque: phf: an idea for logs, it might be easier to find threads if the scope of a search could be more than one line, perhaps as a parameter like "from:".
trinque: idea being "rockchip blobless scope:15" would bring you to anywhere those terms are within 15 lines of each other
asciilifeform: trinque: i've wanted this for a long time; might be cpu-expensive tho.
trinque: yeah possibly, just throwing it out there
BingoBoingo: In other archeo-coprology The Uruguayo Amateur Radio Association on the web today: https://archive.is/5lTz1 versus February 2013: https://archive.is/klTvj
asciilifeform: phf: if it helps in your archaeology, google's 'seekrit' name for the machine is 'veyron'
asciilifeform: phf: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/coreboot/+/firmware-veyron-6588.B << supposed src
asciilifeform: phf: werentcha in the middle of a vtron or do i misremember tho
phf: asciilifeform: i'm establishing scope, rather then actually doing anything. firefox on my x60 has an uper limit on tabs i have open, because it runs out of memory, so i started thinking that this ain't no way to live :>
asciilifeform: at any rate it doesn't hurt to put asciilifeform's lulzcollection re subj in the log.
phf: exactly
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: funnily enuff i was listening to web-sdr boxen in UY not long ago. there's several public ones.
phf: trinque: i like that idea, i'll see if it's easy to implement though. it doesn't map quite cleanly to current search architecture though, which is single pass and stateless
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Were talking about privatizing the water?
BingoBoingo: * were they
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: << see for yourself.
asciilifeform: or hm nm loox dead nao
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.websdr.org << can try the argentinas, if you feel like, to get a feel.
BingoBoingo: Cool
asciilifeform: ^ without some rough idea of what you're looking for, these won't do much good
BingoBoingo: Well, as of last year Uruguay has amateur license classes that allow pumping up to 1500 screaming watts on certain parts of the spectrum
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'legal' shortwave is ~useless , iirc we had the thread.
asciilifeform: i suppose i oughta detail in the logs, in concrete example, for fyootoor ref.
BingoBoingo: Well, the cover content sure, but what about the steganographed stuff.
asciilifeform: you gotta start with asking, what you want out of the thing.
asciilifeform: if it's gossipd transport layer, massively loud sw station is the Wrong Thing ( unless you're mircea_popescu , and have the cannon battery around the mast, and can be arsed )
BingoBoingo: Well, why does anyone do amateur radio? Same reason they post on reddit. They want a hot young wife, and a dog and grandchildren who love them, but they settle for DX'ing and postcards.
asciilifeform: understand that 1000w transmitter is only ~2x as 'loud' as 100w.
BingoBoingo: But it is 10x as much megawatt strategy accomplishing contra the 100 watt station
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i am considering here the tmsr use cases, rather than the old farts chatting about grandchildren use case (the latter already is quite well-documented, folx who are interested in it can simply rtfm)
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818457 << Orange juice, chicken soup, and mangoes << cheers.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 01:07 mod6: baby, i've got a fever.
asciilifeform: http://www.voacap.com/p2p << propagation calculator.
asciilifeform: ^ output changes with time of day and season.
asciilifeform: to get answer that makes sense in light of prev thread, set 'tx mode' to ft8 ( a commonplace tone modem ), pick two geographies, and notice that even 1W on a quiet illicit band, already gets you 1000km under the right circumstance.
asciilifeform: i'ma make a long thread , shorter, and summarize, it makes considerably moar sense to have smaller, cheaper, unattended 1-10W checks-rsa-and-relays boxen, then massive 'pirate' mast.
asciilifeform: *than
BingoBoingo: Well, depends on how the terraforming goes. In the struggle between righteous corrupting forces vs. Moo Cow idiocy it is possible that someone has a commercial 250kw-1mw transmitter delivering the good tidings of TMSR from somewhere in LATAM or Africa.
asciilifeform: i'ma illustrate with picture, the difference in equipment. :
asciilifeform: 1) https://archive.li/nLxLX << this is a chinese 100W sw piratetron. it eats ~150W of mains current, and is the size of a brick, and needs forced air etc. costs about 100 $ , just by itself ( i.e. without whatever gossiptron logic and signal synth you'd have. )
asciilifeform: 2) https://archive.li/WjQWt << chinese 2W piratetron. easily runs on battery (incl. e.g. solar) , costs about 10 $ .
asciilifeform: do i need to go on, or does this make sense.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you're interested in ~voice~ , as if the year were 1952, look elsewhere, the subj is beaten to death in the literature.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's historic interest in the subj is strictly in re gossipd.
BingoBoingo: Sure. gossipd isn't the only use case. Can't expect the moo cows to report to the reddit bags because they have been issued messages over a gossipd they aren't equipped to use. It's a use case that demands voice and/or video.
asciilifeform: https://archive.li/yBBhM << strictly for thread-completeness, this is a typical 10W sw amp. size is approx same as 2 FUCKGOATS laid wide end to end.
asciilifeform: keep in mind ftr also that these need substantial antenna ( can be simple wire, but needs to be at least 10 metres in length, and taught )
asciilifeform: the pigtail stubs used on your familiar uhf hardware (e.g. wifi) won't work for sw.
asciilifeform: https://archive.li/lCGOn << example of typical 'field' sw antennae.
asciilifeform: to properly round out the thread, keep in mind that gossip station would need ~receiver~ as well as transmitter (and obviously a comp)
asciilifeform: ideally whole thing would be a FG-sized board that can be potted in epoxy, with pv cells on either side, and hung from a tree in the middle of forest. maybe next decade.
BingoBoingo: My case for the high power station at some point in the future is that Aconcagua is 6962 meters tall and there are plenty of other high peaks in the Andes. There's the seperate gossipd goal of building a robust relay network, and then there's the "wouldn
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: back to your hypothetical : humour me, say, to whom wouldja broadcast voice? and for what ?
BingoBoingo: 't it be nice dream to loudly piss over the USG.FCC from down south
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817818 << they're not homonyms, fwiw, unless you'd read stalin the same way as stolin. but otherwise, pouch is like stalin and poach is like stolin.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-23 18:46 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817710 << yes, i seem to make these kind of homonym errors a lot actually, and i reread the sentence every time, but don't see it until the issue is pointed out.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: id'd be the local , orc gestapo you'd be pissing on, tho
asciilifeform: ( possibly entirely harmless, or quickly lethal, depending on your orccraft, i suppose )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: id'd be the local , orc gestapo you'd be pissing on, tho << A lot of terraforming and corrupting can happen in 20 years
BingoBoingo: having grandchildren to derp about on shortwave takes time.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: also know that 'traditional' sw station is a ~very~ expensive pleasure; makes server rack look cheap
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818596 << meanwhile i figured out what you meant. here's the problem : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-08#1811449 / http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/05/04/collected-gripes/ ($2 -- speaking of which hey bb, selectotron when?) or more in the general http://trilema.com/2009/omul-inutil-sau-pledoarie-pentru-protectie-sociala/☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 05:12 Mocky: right so what's the problem
a111: Logged on 2018-05-08 20:51 BingoBoingo: And to top it all off, as much as my walking speed has slowed today, THEY STILL WON'T STOP STOPPING
mircea_popescu: and i shall be back soonish!
BingoBoingo: Selectotron sometime before 2019.
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818722, I'm in the last rounds (building gnat-musl using gnat-musl on aarch64). The last part is the slowest (I have one core for it). Also, for some reason the download sites are becoming unstable, I had to change one and it just failed on another.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 14:33 asciilifeform: ave1: was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-16#1814293 ever done ?
asciilifeform: !!up KernelKhaos
deedbot: KernelKhaos voiced for 30 minutes.
KernelKhaos: thx asciilifeform
asciilifeform: KernelKhaos: who might you be ?
KernelKhaos: hmmm. I am not what I am. Probably nobody, till I'm properly keyed.
KernelKhaos: I wotpasted my public key.
asciilifeform: !!help
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html
asciilifeform: KernelKhaos: ^ rtfm
trinque: KernelKhaos: didn't you drop by as some other cutesy nick?
trinque: how bout you drop the coy 14yr old girl routine and answer the man's question
KernelKhaos: yes, dumb ass nicks.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818824 << what's this, the tagline for your line of self-help podcasts?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 17:19 KernelKhaos: hmmm. I am not what I am. Probably nobody, till I'm properly keyed.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-18#1815304 << last time around☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-18 17:14 mircea_popescu: !!up IamNotWhatIam
trinque: there it was
KernelKhaos: lol, podcasts, but no blog, and I avoid publishing most things.
asciilifeform: https://www.oglaf.com/humans << oblig
KernelKhaos: !!up KernelKhaos
deedbot: You may not $up yourself.
trinque: KernelKhaos: last chance to introduce yourself properly
asciilifeform: trinque: douchebag already introduced, why would his sybils need separate introductions
asciilifeform: !!down KernelKhaos
asciilifeform: snoar.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell douchebag if you think the faux-camwhores approach will work to make a 'backup' identity for self, this time with new flavouring -- 1) it won't 2) drop it 3) this is good road to -10
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ah, could just as well be some other derp. plenty of solipsists around
asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform bit through the camwhores nonsense after shot #3 or so
asciilifeform: trinque: d00d seems to suffer from some bizarre compulsion, to leave the 'am what i am' clue
trinque: hm
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-06#912903 << omg, asciilifeform running disinfo!!11!1☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-11-06 20:34 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in practice - i am what i am.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: folx showing symptoms of sybilism, will be shoved into sybil pen.
asciilifeform: no remorse.
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-25#363112 << https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/05/25/rachel-dolezal-who-posed-black-woman-accused-welfare-fraud/643773002/☝︎
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-25 04:26 Mocky: like that naacp 'leader' who identified as black
ben_vulpes: "hey, she's a reeeeal african american now!"
lobbes: In other real africas >> https://archive.is/bHxk9
asciilifeform: lobbes: lol! last i knew, pseudo-analogue clocks were 'retro-chic' and 'hip'... i guess no moar
trinque: so teaching fractions is right out too, eh?
trinque: "teenagers" << oh.
trinque: if Mocky were here I'd ask him if he sees the problem yet
mircea_popescu: ave1, i'm not advanced enough to make much of a teacher ; but commercial speech is a discipline unto itself. i suppose one approach is to keep track of what seduces you and why ; and others. eventually you end up with some kind of mental image.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818694 << this is very stupid.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 12:25 ave1: Or just live with it until the stress becomes big enough that you'll have to do something.
mircea_popescu: i expect 80% of the cases of "oh, i am being asked too much, this republic sucks" come from exactly this inept "oh, i won't do a good job, and wait for time to resolve it". yes, time will resolve it, but odds are the solution will hurt the butt.
mircea_popescu: no. write good code from the get go. there's no room here for "oh, this is the code i wrote, but it's not really who i am". it fucking is who you are, irrespective of what the monkey may be saying in your ear. THAT is what you are.
mircea_popescu: trying to maintain this supposed difference between what you do and who you are is exactly how the office drones manage to use a whole life doing exactly nothing whatsoever. all their juice went to the gap.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818697 << is this a set of patches on existing bot or a whole new genesis for some reason ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 12:31 spyked: but I knew how the rss bot design should look (I wrote up a draft before starting the implementation), the problem was rather fitting it up with all the "imported" elements.
mircea_popescu: (neither of these options is good. if the former, why the fuck doing the polarbeard stupid, what, not read the logs ? if the latter, umm...)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818705 << either that or, usually the case, the mind has bad habits it shall have to discard.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 12:53 spyked: as far as I can see, this first writing pass exposes incorrect assumptions about e.g. data structures and how they're used. if this keeps happening, then it might be that the problem is larger than the mind can chew on in one take.
mircea_popescu: !!key blessedmagnus
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/1ED7AC4583C9D83A4131010171C0411BF2FC4672.asc
trinque: an RSS shitting IRC bot is not bigger than the mind can take wtf
spyked: mircea_popescu, i haven't thought about that yet. but needless to say, the bot depends on many pieces that are not v-ified (and for that matter also does ircbot).
spyked: trinque, that wasn't implied in the discussion.
mircea_popescu: spyked, that what ?
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818870☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 20:39 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818697 << is this a set of patches on existing bot or a whole new genesis for some reason ?
mircea_popescu: then you've done nothing.
mircea_popescu: that's the first step.
spyked: mircea_popescu, I'm not sure what you mean. lemme explain: the rss bot depends on ircbot and other pieces (some imported from heathenlands, some written by scratch from yours truly). from my reading so far, (e.g. diana_coman's use of MPI in Eucrypt) I dun see this as a strictly solved problem. I could a. make a new genesis consisting of ircbot + rss bot + all dependencies, or b. genesis rss bot alone (and mention ircbot + all others as
spyked: dependencies explicitly; this is already the case in the bot's .asd file), or c. add rss bot as set of patches onto ircbot.
mircea_popescu: when i say "wank" i'm not just using a word for the purpose of filling a conversational hole. that's what wank fucking is, "any activity proceeding without having considered that question".
mircea_popescu: if you ask "well, am i extending something or writing de novo", you're participating. if you're doing anything else, you're wanking about ; an activity entirely undistinguishable from chatting up the starbucks waitress or braying under the full moon.
mircea_popescu: spyked, so is it then the case you're writing an rss module for icrbot ?
spyked: mircea_popescu, in the same sense that logbot is a logging module for ircbot, yes. that would mean b (in the a, b, c above)
mircea_popescu: cool. and trying to do this you discovered ircbot can't actually handle voicing itself ?
mircea_popescu: why's that question take 100s of seconds to process anyway. it can't be ~that~ intricate, just copy a register and return.
spyked: mircea_popescu, it can be used to implement self-voicing, but no, it doesn't implement that functionality itself.
mircea_popescu: well, did you protest that anywhere ? preferably as "hey $x, im trying to use ircbot to make rssbot, but you've not got voice going ?!"
spyked: no, why protest. I thought it was obvious that I was gonna implement it?
trinque: eh? why would it voice itself
trinque: he should extend the thing with a subclass that implements deedbot auth, yeah, but recall deedbot auth service is itself down the tree from ircbot
mircea_popescu: spyked, it was obvious you were going to implement voicing to make rss bot ? and it was also obvious that you're going to switch state from "making rss bot" to "implementing voice for ircbot so i can proceed with making rssbot", so you didn't announce that either. do you have a value for $x ?
spyked: mircea_popescu, I admit some of my wording might be confusing, but I announced that in my report today. self-voicing is a prerequisite for rss bot, arising from http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818700 , so I'm implementing. how is this state switching?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 12:38 spyked: so eventually I expect some of the rss bot components (e.g. command handling, self-voicing) to evolve into standalone scaffolding for #trilema bots that implements a decent subset of http://trilema.com/2016/trilema-bot-spec/
mircea_popescu: nevermind that part for now. do you have a value for $x in "hey $x".
spyked: I dun understand
spyked rereads
mircea_popescu: you got serious problems my good man.
ben_vulpes: hey BingoBoingo would you apply the same razor you applied to the landing page copy to the rest of the copy on the pizarro site?
trinque: !!gettrust deedbot spyked
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: 3 by 3 connections.
trinque: spyked: did it ever cross your mind that command handling might be a solved problem too?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Will do.
trinque: if you'd have asked the author of the thing you're apparently using
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-20#1815866☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-20 03:41 trinque: you latest crop of socially damaged derps will learn to communicate, and that's all.
trinque: there's a whole thread on whether or not "fuck you, I'm not marrying bot commands to postgresql" we're denying posterity here
mircea_popescu: well, apparently he doesn't know what goes in $x. which... i have nfi how this is possible, but somehow it occured. "i am working on a thing" "who made it" "dunno" "vorwarts, soviet!"
spyked: mircea_popescu, trinque, aha, now I get my miscommunication. but I confess to being confused by the "value for $x" question.
mircea_popescu: why ?
mircea_popescu: understand, the only reason we even fucking rewrite things is because the imperial "item of unknown ownership, provenance and parentage" breaks republican process.
mircea_popescu: THAT is the process. right there. what are you doing, on whose thing, etcetera. it's entirely univocal, what.
spyked: no, what I mean is really, couldn't evaluate the metaphor in this context. /me admits to being overly thick.
mircea_popescu: what metaphor! it's an metasyntactic variable, you never encountered before ?!
mircea_popescu: do you have a value for "doing the polarbeard stupid" ? can you explain what it is ?
spyked: "man alone"?
mircea_popescu: o brother. what is this, spyked's friendly fuzzing service ?
spyked: but yes, I understand mircea_popescu now, thing is vaporware/non-existent until properly published and signed.
mircea_popescu: it means this : that instead of explicitly communicating state, a. "i r making rss bot" ; b. "hey trinque wtf, ircbot doesn't do voicing ?" ; c. "o well, stopped making rss bot, making voice module for ircbot to be able to make rss bot later" and THEN 1. pushing a voice patch to ircbot BEFORE d. "back to making rss bot"
mircea_popescu: instead you just dump an endless pile of diffs that a) do multiple unrelated things and b) don't even betray any awareness of the process involved in all of this.
trinque: spyked: hasn't to do with the publishing and signing yet. open source is shit precisely because every idiot comes in and does his own thing without talking to the last guy
trinque: because coy and what if he doesn't like me, or fuck knows
mircea_popescu: poor communication with the exterior and poor structuring of the internal process. no, it's not AT ALL the same fucking thing, oh, x is vaguely related to y so let's call it all z." the point isn't to make stu over here.
mircea_popescu: all this communication you opt to not do when it costs you a dime a page i then have to do later, at the cost of a dollar a word. it's fucking bs, save me money.
spyked takes this lesson. will make his pre/post-work communication happen (as explicitly as possible) in the future.
trinque: ok, so lets have the thread!
trinque: ircbot does nothing but connect to IRC, does nickserv auth, and provides a minimal api to send/receive messages
trinque: this imho is totally proper, atop that I've written a class logbot that extends ircbot, makes it write messages to a "log" table in postgresql, read outgoing messages from an "outbox" table
spyked: my thought re trilema spec is having something along the lines of a "trilbot" that performs some of the basic scaffolding (self-voicing and command prefix parsing).
mircea_popescu: trinque, is it actually the case ircbot can't do the voicing ?
spyked: could be standalone lisp package, used by e.g. rss bot
spyked: and built on top ircbot
spyked: *on top of it
trinque: mircea_popescu: deedbot is *providing* auth here
mircea_popescu: spyked, so then you were actually going to " writing de novo" ?
trinque: I have not at all implemented *using* auth
trinque: the proper place to do that is not at all ircbot
trinque: it's a descendent class thereof
mircea_popescu: trinque, didja put this anywhere ?
trinque: put what?
mircea_popescu: "here's how i expect this to be used : a) ircbot is a basic class ; b) logbot is an extension of it ; c) if you're ever making a rss bot, scavenge the relevant parts off logbot, and put a different vtree on top of ircbot"
trinque: it's not a vtree on top of ircbot
mircea_popescu: why not ?
trinque: and yeah, the rationale for what each class is used for is in the blog post
mircea_popescu: is the blogpost referenced from the vpatches ?
trinque: the blogpost is the README from each
mircea_popescu: so then properly, the rationale is in the vpatches, something like that.
mircea_popescu: spyked, didja read it ? did it make sense ?
spyked: the reason I was first set off by mircea_popescu's question was that it led me to "what implication do lisp modules (packages?) have for v? is each module/package supposed to have its own v tree?"
spyked: mircea_popescu, yes
trinque: it'd have to; I can write a class that extends n other classes.
trinque: we can't put each descendent class in every parent's v-tree, or there's one v-tree for the whole world
mircea_popescu: spyked, did you say this anywhere ?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818886 <<☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 21:02 spyked: dependencies explicitly; this is already the case in the bot's .asd file), or c. add rss bot as set of patches onto ircbot.
mircea_popescu: think : if you take the time to say, i don't have to take the time to later ask. it's a penny saved, aka earned.
trinque: that problem is not solved
trinque: however, my work on portage walks towards that.
spyked: mircea_popescu, which "this"? my reading ircbot, or the implication regarding v?
mircea_popescu: "hey $x (=trinque), i read $y and it makes perfect sense. i intend to do $z"
mircea_popescu: "obviously" and "implicitly" are not nearly as friendly as they may seem ; especially in this context.
spyked: no, I didn't. only reported that I began to read once I think, i.e. at http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-03#1792655 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-02#1807544☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-04-03 19:46 spyked: mircea_popescu, it's good timing, since I've been doing some reading ircbot code and comparing with my own implementation. I've actually been contemplating http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-26#1786288 and rolling my own was not a wholly useless endeavour, i.e. http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/#selection-322.0-322.5 so I'll document the whole thing on the blog.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-02 11:03 spyked: speaking of which; to all ircbot users: I have a patch proposal for ircbot (and possibly logbot). the problem: nickserv authentication makes a distinction between "nickname" and "user". this allows e.g. to group multiple irc bots (with different nicks) under a single username and cloak. so my proposal is to add a new *optional* "user" slot to ircbot and use it for auth instead of "nick" when available
mircea_popescu: spyked, yes, but you have to pick something at some point. you can't be doing everything at the same time.
mircea_popescu: is it that you're writing a new item ? is it that you're extending an extant one ? this is decided FIRST. not "as we go along, and then changed".
spyked: mircea_popescu, I ended up working on a couple of new ones. a. trilema spec subset and b. rss bot.
mircea_popescu: spyked, you'll discover you'll do much better working serially.
mircea_popescu: but be that as it may : there's always going to be good and bad arguments for whatever choice ; but that has no bearing on the fact that you must still choose, and at the time of choice not at whatever time it may occur to you to.
mircea_popescu: so, is the rss bot ~something you're extending irc bot into~ or ~something you're writing de novo~. one and only one may be the case.
mircea_popescu: and the fact that i have to ask at all, let alone i have to re-ask after an hour's conversation is a very strong marker for a poorly organized mind. you're supposed to know what you're doing, what!
spyked: mircea_popescu, it is going to be separate item, but based on ircbot. can't be an extension of ircbot, for the same reason logbot can't be (some people might not wanna put a rsstron into their ircbot)
mircea_popescu: i don't get it. you can't press to arbitrary heads now ?
douchebag: asciilifeform: elaborate?
lobbesbot: douchebag: Sent 4 hours and 32 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> if you think the faux-camwhores approach will work to make a 'backup' identity for self, this time with new flavouring -- 1) it won't 2) drop it 3) this is good road to -10
trinque: he thinks you were that derp from earlier
douchebag: Oh hell nah
spyked: mircea_popescu, the rss bot would branch the ircbot tree then. if trinque or mircea_popescu see any reason for adding rss bot on top of ircbot, I see no reason not to, but it would be disjoint item (i.e. only file changed would be manifest)
mircea_popescu: my mind is blown.
spyked: more to the point: there is a relation between ircbot and the rss bot, but I'm not sure it would make sense for v to enforce that.
mircea_popescu: ...
mircea_popescu: would it make sense for v to exist at all ?
trinque: does the v-tree suck in a particular version of the linux kernel too?
trinque: I think he's asking where the line is drawn
trinque: ircbot will be a dependency of his thing, so he wants to know how to denote that
mircea_popescu: i don't even know what fucking line. what line ? it's either a genesis or a patchset. that's thje fucking line. what other line ?!
trinque: how would you like me to restate it
mircea_popescu: i dunno. i think it can sit as it is.
spyked: mircea_popescu, lemme try to restate the thing as I see it. the rss bot doesn't make changes to ircbot, it's a new thing that uses ircbot as a dependency. so from this follows (in my mind, so pls to say if broken!) that the new thing will be a genesis.
mircea_popescu: this is factually incorrect. from "item has 1 dependency : otheritem" it follows strictly that item will be a succession of patches on otheritem tree.
mircea_popescu: if it were the case that item has >1 dependency, oi1..n, then it would have been resolved by a) picking one and b) introducing as patches into that tree all otheritems 1..n-1.
spyked: mircea_popescu, then I dun understand why http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot the disjoint graph on the right
mircea_popescu: afaik ben_vulpes made one and trinque the other or somesuch. in general, the cause for this is author1 thinks author2 is an idiot.
trinque: this is absolutely not what was being denoted by that
mircea_popescu: well, it's what i understand. what was being denoted ?
trinque: I don't see that eucrypt code includes the ada compiler? why not?
trinque: or linux kernel, or etc.
mircea_popescu: because nobody willing to sign it has yet been found.
mircea_popescu: but should eg, bitcoin-fs be written, then yes trb will exist in the same tree as bitcoin-fs. and should we go as low as tmsr-os, then yes, tmsr-os as genesis will have bitcoin-fs patchzone and then trb patchzone after that. and people wanting to use bitcoinfs for something else can just press up to there and no further. and projects wanting to import bitcoinfs but not trb will just build off that height of tree, and continue
mircea_popescu: thusly.
mircea_popescu: and yes, "the complete tree of all patches ever downstream from tmsr-os genesis" will include ~everything~ we ever made, and there's nothing wrong with that ; and people not caring to keep the complete patchset will keep whatever subs they want, exactly like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-09#1794613☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-04-09 14:31 mircea_popescu: a right. hanbot do me a favour : download ~only~ those patches which are in the leftmost trunk seen on phf's viewer (so exclude vtools_vdiff_sha, and its dependents) and try to flow again ?
spyked: mircea_popescu, but say I have a similar itcbot vtree, with logbot on top. then top of it I include trilemabot (handling self-voicing et al.), then on top of that rss bot. then if I want to use rss bot but not logbot (which don't depend on each other), how would I go about that?
mircea_popescu: spyked, why is trilemabot on top of logbot instead of on the side of logbot ?
trinque: I think this is absolutely correct, and I'm in error not putting logbot in ircbot's tree.
mircea_popescu: (the realisation that v-tree management is a lot like playing tetris should probably hit just about now)
mircea_popescu: trinque, not the end of the world, the "author1 thionks author2 is an idiot" can be very mild indeed, "i didn't like the patchlength, collapsed some and regenesised"
spyked: mircea_popescu, then if they're separate branches and if I want to make purely hypothetical spykedbot that does both? would end up with patch with two antecedents, should v press that? should I regrind?
mircea_popescu: spyked, v presses that as it is now, why not. plenty of examples extant.
trinque: I suppose I should've said instead "had there been a gnat v-tree, eucrypt would never find itself in a position where gnat had moved, and nobody can find the gnat to build eucrypt"
mircea_popescu: indeed that'd be so, and how joyous a circumstance.
mircea_popescu: that's even why eucrypt doesn't want to be outside of the tree of its dependencies, after all.
trinque: there's a cultural thing here that just came into view. the work will be regrinding until there's fewer and fewer disjunct trees.
mircea_popescu: whenever the weight of signatures warrants the effort.
spyked was thinking, will "the (one and only) v tree" end up eating everything?
mircea_popescu: depends on dependencies. eg you can have independent arm and x86 osen.
mircea_popescu: or can have special purpose osen in other ways, and end up with lone trees.
mircea_popescu: for instance : bitcoinfs may be found useful by someone storing flac muzak. they'd then copy it from its original tmsr-os / trb tree, and put it in their gp-os / torrent tree.
trinque: will be interesting what comes of tracking those lineages
mircea_popescu: this'd take some doing, conceivably, but the someone in question may find the answer to "import or rewrite" favourable on the import side.
mircea_popescu: trinque, i dunno that they're to be tracked, it'd be 100% elbow grease of the porter and his beard.
trinque: sure, but whether the same patch hunk ended up in two places is computable, interesting in a patch-viewer sense, not in a vtron-operation sense
mircea_popescu: i suspect it may not be fully computable. but, sure, we see how it goes.
ben_vulpes: !!up pipp8
deedbot: pipp8 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818719 << we'll live with the lulz.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 13:29 phf: back in the canonical log days, i'd patch the name in the logs, but since we're past that i think it can be left as is, unless there are objections as far as log authenticity.
trinque: spyked: so sounds like you're going to patch your items (in as many small, easy to read patches as possible) atop ircbot?
trinque: and I'm going to graft logbot's v-tree onto ircbot
spyked: trinque, alright.
mircea_popescu: do me a favour and don't wait on the voice part so as to dump it together with the rss part, either.
mircea_popescu: small, easy to read, one at a time.
mircea_popescu: and conceivably both logbot and rssbot want voice module, because logbot will want to read references to its logsite.
pipp8: thanks, Hi all, I'm a little noob about bitcoin, so I'm sorry, But from your website thebitcoin.fundation I can read you still use bitcoin 0.54(or 0.53 official with bug solved) why you have choose this version? what succesive implementations wasn't in line with your thinking?? you don't want?
mircea_popescu: pipp8, read the logs.
spyked: mircea_popescu, okay. the rss bot needs self-voicing, command prefixes et al., so it's eventually going to come further down in the tree, on top of them.
pipp8: mircea_popescu, ok
mircea_popescu: you can of course interleave, it's not the end of the world.
mircea_popescu: ie, as a general rule, always start with the more general parts.
ben_vulpes: pipp8: http://cascadianhacker.com/20_a-summary-of-changes-to-bitcoin-since-0321
spyked: trinque, re. voice and other trilema-bot functionality, I'd like to take a look at the code you have if you're willing to share.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818735 << is is settled that rsa checks are waste of time / undesirable ? having a sane process doing kernel check may not be terrible, neh ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 15:44 phf: and i guess you're trying to replace google's uboot with a built-from-src one, that doesn't also have rsa checks etc.
trinque: to reiterate, I do not have code to self-voice. deedbot is providing voice to everyone else.
ben_vulpes: pipp8: because nothing after 0.5.3 was strictly necessary.
mircea_popescu: spyked, do you have a voicer thing ?
trinque: the code I have is to provide the voicing service, which isn't useful for your purposes, but will certainly be released at some point
spyked: mircea_popescu, no, not yet. it's next on the todo list.
mircea_popescu: i'll spare you the "wtf have you been doing thus far". this time.
spyked: trinque, okay, then I'ma do that first. and then get back to you for command prefixes.
trinque: I suspect logbot is terribly named. it's more aptly an IRC-pg bridge.
mircea_popescu: trinque, regrind is the time to rename, huh.
trinque: for sure.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818746 << now this is an example of sane approach. *thumbsup*☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 15:47 phf: so an intermediate step that someone else could perform is to take your rockchip gentoo, generate new rsa pair, sign the kernel with pub, patch google's uboot with priv and get a clean booting rockchip gentoo setup, without accidentally bricking the device? (while still retaining known amount of google in the system)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818753 << this is actually a fine spec ; unterschrif't☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 15:51 trinque: idea being "rockchip blobless scope:15" would bring you to anywhere those terms are within 15 lines of each other
mircea_popescu: and if it ~is~ resource intensive, implement it anyway, publish a way for user to evaluate cost, and charge them like lobbes ' auctionbot. monthly or w/e.
spyked: mircea_popescu, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/R1NKS/?raw=true for example. lemme know if it breaks
mircea_popescu: i would not object to !!paying whatever pittance my needs may drive me to, and if it's not a pittance i'll either change the needs or be thankful for the useful service.
mircea_popescu: spyked, why is it !F ?
spyked: I'm gonna change that with the one from the bot list when I bring it in the chan
spyked: but it seemed more intuitive for some reason. could be e.g. !R for rss.
mircea_popescu: the value of "i forgot what this is" gotta balance with the value of "this is impossible to fucking type".
mircea_popescu: generally the bias is towards heavy users, not noobs.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it produced no message of any kind.
mircea_popescu: also i'm not exactly instrumented here to handle testing of pming bots, rss or otherwise. so mebbe someone else may be more useful ?
spyked: yeah, it produced an error! gotta debug it. there's no sane rss parser out there.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818760 << bear in mind that my girls get in trouble for having over a dozen tabs open. maybe the solution is on the other end!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 15:58 phf: asciilifeform: i'm establishing scope, rather then actually doing anything. firefox on my x60 has an uper limit on tabs i have open, because it runs out of memory, so i started thinking that this ain't no way to live :>
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818764 << may end up having to import Framedragger_ s' multi-line thing as a means to return.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 15:59 phf: trinque: i like that idea, i'll see if it's easy to implement though. it doesn't map quite cleanly to current search architecture though, which is single pass and stateless
spyked: mircea_popescu, yeah, the example was only intended to give preview, re "what've you been doing all this time". btw, can unsubscribe using !F unsubscribe <link>. otherwise it'll send you messages after I figure out what's borken.
mircea_popescu: part of the problem is i don't even know if i can receive and can't be arsed to debug something i don't really use anyway. but yes, will clear it nao.
mod6: !!up pipp8
deedbot: pipp8 voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: pipp8: Make sure to register a key and get yourself into the wot via deedbot. Here's the help page: http://deedbot.org/help.html
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818851 <<< bwahahahaah zing☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 17:31 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-06#912903 << omg, asciilifeform running disinfo!!11!1
mircea_popescu: “Schools will inevitably be doing their best to make young children feel as relaxed as the can be.'
mircea_popescu: then when i say imperial "school" is out and out kiddie fucking they act like they've no idea wtf.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1819048 << in abstract it's great; but in the concrete case it requires GB of google liquishit tooling to be kept around so as to sign kernels ( unless somebody wants to rewrite and follow the gnarly format.. )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 22:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818735 << is is settled that rsa checks are waste of time / undesirable ? having a sane process doing kernel check may not be terrible, neh ?
asciilifeform: it also forces the use of their oddball partition scheme
asciilifeform brb,meat
douchebag: In other news, that retired prostitiute Lola who now pimps out other younger women
douchebag: well, she robbed some dude for $280 of crack and now these black dudes are telling her she has to get into a fist fight with their cousin, and they will forget about the debt. Their cousin is a black dude a few years older than me.
douchebag: So yeah, she's going to get fucked up. I'll post pictures of the aftermath if I see her at all in the next 24 hrs
douchebag: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XNCId/?raw=true
douchebag: When you fuck with gang members, you get gang treatment. Kind of ironic that she has a tattoo that says loyalty haha