log
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shinohai: Best I can tell he posted a link to theymos' personal info
shinohai: Which I freely posted 4 weeks ago and nothing happened.
mircea_popescu: heh mkay.
mircea_popescu vaguely recalls blowing the dude's "cover" sometime in 2013 or w/e that glbse shares scam happened.
mircea_popescu: not like it was secret or anything
thestringpuller: that was 2012
thestringpuller: don't get senile on us
mircea_popescu: aok
mircea_popescu: dude, you have no idea, i was looking at trilema article earlier and had nfi what it's supposed to be, even.
mircea_popescu: http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/charleston/how-not-to-depict-trump-wave-feminism/Content?oid=6423315 << in other buttlulz
mircea_popescu: latinx women!!!
mircea_popescu: oh and in other "people form the future : the next generation" http://d2vepvd49xw1a6.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02071929/brian-dean-1.png
shinohai: Why does it irk me when people wear tshirts with blazers or suit coats.
mircea_popescu: well it's more like a burlap thing... call it a burlacket ?
thestringpuller: he looks liek a gooback -> http://www.humanitysucks.com/blog/files/SP_goobacks.jpg
mircea_popescu: anyway, no, dude's just new (post web 2.0) generation "seo expert" etc.
mircea_popescu: which kinda makes me suspect the whole field's ripe for a generation change. "feminism" is certainly shattered post trump, so it looks like there may be a 6th wave brewing. and the 2nd generation seo dorks who came online with the "social media" revolution and web 2.0 idiocies are mostly falling back into regular jobs and boring marital arrangements so there's a void, to be filled.
mircea_popescu: by people who do a lot of couch surfing and type on tablets.
thestringpuller: all the SEO people I know ended up going into machine learning
thestringpuller: only the girls end up fucking with google analytics in their 30s
mircea_popescu: anyway, as far as "online web industry" is concerned, definite signs of a trumpocalypse. sort-of how there was a pre fdr and a post fdr or a pre lincoln and post lincoln america ; there's going to be i suspect a pre-trump and a post-trump web
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "During the manufacturing process, a unique set of keys are generated and stored in the processor’s fuse array. One of these fuse keys is not known by Intel and is one of the components used to form the basis for consistent derivation of subsequent sealing keys." << in other snorefest. "Unknown" to Intel during manufacturing...uh huh...
shinohai: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131574.msg1408985#msg1408985 "Some kind of blockchain recording everyone's trustworthyness would be an interesting tool to try to develop."
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: thanks god for tardstalk idea men, where'd we be without 'em
thestringpuller: shinohai: a VER-ified trust store?
shinohai: I was looking into that time when Ver doxed the guy over (at the time) $50 and found that gem
asciilifeform under voodoo curse; 50-year-old genuine feature pillow finally detonated in the wash, made for 2+hrs of wetvac, and 'where the fuck do i get one of ~these~' experience
asciilifeform: *feather pillow
shinohai says nothing about the cat at midnite again
asciilifeform: lel
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: dunno if helps. but recently invested in tempurpedic-like pillow due to sleep issues. neck support made a difference.
thestringpuller: altho most don't want to spend $200 on pillow
asciilifeform: ick no american synthetic turdolade plox.
shinohai: I bought a down pillow at JCPenny but has been a bit
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform buy a coupla live ducks and oranges. make pekin duck and new pillows.
shinohai: ^
asciilifeform: i might have to use mircea_popescu's method. but it will take thousand years, because my proper pillow had 0 feather stems.
mircea_popescu: you pick the down not the feathers eh.
asciilifeform: tell this to the americans.
asciilifeform: who happily sell ~with stems~
mircea_popescu: i think they use a mechanic plucker, ~beat carcass with sticks
asciilifeform: btw mine was made of chicken.
asciilifeform: by hand. by great-grandparents.
mircea_popescu: ah that's bs. virtually no down on chickens.
mircea_popescu: also shittier down by a LONG shot
asciilifeform: was ~just right~ consistency though, and didn't feel like roasting in own juices from the sheer thermal insulation power
asciilifeform: had exactly ideal conductivity.
mircea_popescu: well then may i recomend a tardis.
asciilifeform: this is ftr the WORST possible kind of tech, which is why i even mention it here:
asciilifeform: 1) finite mtbf 2) no replacement possible.
asciilifeform: like one's own motherfucking body.
asciilifeform: 'be smart, don't start' (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: body very replaceable, just unscrew the head.
shinohai: I saw that on trilema, so I know it's possible.
mircea_popescu: it's an old leisure suit larry idea. I SAW THE FACTORY
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: https://youtu.be/BFZgOK4KIsQ?t=5m << aaaactually this came first!!
asciilifeform: the canonical head-lightbulb in my head.
mircea_popescu: that doesn't really look like it's earlier than the lslilll
asciilifeform: 1978.
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, the characters look like ripoffs of lucky luke antagonists)
mircea_popescu: did they have that in ru ?
asciilifeform: the thing was massively multilayer lampoon of various cultural gibblets
asciilifeform: and i never saw 'luke', but it looks neato.
mircea_popescu: ancient, 60s belgian thing
mircea_popescu: also similarily palimpsest of reference
asciilifeform: yeah i can see it.
asciilifeform puts on list.
mircea_popescu: some crossover with tintin, but meh. the great us equivalent would be i guess popeye
mircea_popescu: (the newspaper edition, not the bastardized tv version)
mircea_popescu: incidentally : the 80s 37yo virgin never killed anyone. just wore his disco suit and applied himself.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ick no american synthetic turdolade plox. << AHA, you've had your fill of polyurethane foam? How much still adheres to the hands?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: some
BingoBoingo: Perhaps time to debride again?
asciilifeform: eh
BingoBoingo: Used to it? Attached?
asciilifeform: nah, but i work with hands enough that it comes off.
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-14#1602666 << some very early, news to report: I've successfully implemented this fix into the forthcoming version of V (99994), and all original and new automated tests passed. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-14 01:07 mircea_popescu: a patch can only apply if ALL of its antecedents are present ; not if ANY of its antecedents are present
mod6: There's still a bunch more clean up and testing ahead, but a step in the right direction. o7
ben_vulpes: cool, mod6
ben_vulpes: http://www.wilfred.me.uk/blog/2017/01/11/announcing-remacs-porting-emacs-to-rust/ ☟︎
mircea_popescu: is this good for rustcoin ?
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DDC31CFD58561A297361FFB673C672306507F014E8422D13821815642064DD42 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 48159739175968624148092767 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Christoph Giesel <christoph.giesel@piraten-lsa.de>; '
mircea_popescu: mod6 nice.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/garond-a-murit/ << apropos of nothing at all, anyone else kill garond ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605069 << so now we know which tumour has been chosen to kill emacs with. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 06:57 ben_vulpes: http://www.wilfred.me.uk/blog/2017/01/11/announcing-remacs-porting-emacs-to-rust/
asciilifeform: 'If you’d like to join us, there’s plenty to do. You could: Port a small C function in lisp.h to lisp.rs. Port your favourite built-in elisp function to Rust.'
asciilifeform: and before long, it will be impossible to actually get normal-people emacs running on any typical os. ☟︎
asciilifeform: 'We can leverage the rapidly-growing crate ecosystem. We can drop support legacy compilers and platforms (looking at you, MS-DOS).'
asciilifeform: turns out -- the fungus is in full bloom.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605077 << mostly for lack of actual people. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 15:25 asciilifeform: and before long, it will be impossible to actually get normal-people emacs running on any typical os.
asciilifeform: noshit, fungus dun grow on healthy tissue
trinque: gotta just stop; I'm never installing another emacs version again
asciilifeform: trinque: recall, the drepperites are getting ready to break glibc so that no moar clasical emacs.
asciilifeform: which means living on specially-terraformed planet, if you want it to work.
trinque: I built on musl lots of times before ☟︎
mircea_popescu: glibc is already frozen pre 5
mircea_popescu: well, gcc i mean
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1592090 << thread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 19:23 mircea_popescu: which i suppose warrants a general warning : DO NOT UPGRADE YOUR GCC TO 5.0! SAVE YOUR COPIES OF 4.X AND PRIOR!
mircea_popescu: anyway, the "leverage ecosystem" ie, "someone else will do our work for us" is very much usg.dos style, but also very much hopeless. seriously, they'll leverage ?
mircea_popescu: turns out i can bit mit with one hand while watching porn. they'll leverage what, they got nothing.
mircea_popescu: der angriff steiners war ein befehl!!1
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the weevils do in fact leverage one another's weeviling.
phf: seems like freenode upgraded all their servers to letsencrypt, meaning that you can't just verify ssl's fingerprint once a year. instead each server has own ssl, updated once in 90 days.
mircea_popescu: you understand nothing they leveraged works ? they ain't got a browser. google is trying to rescue 20 years of weveling with dubious results. there's no python 3. there's no ipv6. there's no trb. there's no eth. there's nothing. NOTHING.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'works' ain't their objective. area denial, is.
mircea_popescu: problem being girls going "you can't go in here" only works on the other girls.
asciilifeform: phf: fleanode's 'security' was a joke afaik always.
mircea_popescu: phf it's entirely unclear what ssl is supposed to provide. it might have been of marginal utility prior to their nsa merger, but these days it's utter waste of time. treat all freenode connections as plaintext.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/college-student-pleads-guilty-developing-malicious-software
asciilifeform: 'According to the statement of facts filed with the plea agreement, Shames developed malicious software, known as a keylogger'
mircea_popescu: "sold to 3k users who used it on 16k victims" dude...
trinque: 3k sales and he couldn't pay for a semi-literate lawyer ?
asciilifeform: in related lulz, https://archive.is/P9ZHt << krebs is back to doing what he was made for, elaborate witch-hunting for usg handlers
mircea_popescu: trinque "sales" here means usg sops style nothing, like obamacare isn't a tax. his thing was mentioned once on a forum with 3k "registered users".
trinque: these creatures must want to sign the papers.
mircea_popescu: hey, it's how you get the ssi rite ?
trinque: and you get to be an elite renegade hacker on the dole, no less
mircea_popescu: you know ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, so krebs has sob story about how republic successfuly denies empire comms ; and wants to add some sort of "but we pay to house some random bums for the rest of their lives so it's all ok"
mircea_popescu: if you believe this is how it works, all the better.
thestringpuller: trinque: good lawyer is hard to find too.
phf: in unrelated lulz a u.s. retail bank is unable to send an international wire transfer. i bring a piece of paper with all correct requisites. half the numbers "i don't know what this number is", so follow up with calls for numbers from the fucking paper that, who could've predicted, are required. write down the numbers on their end incorrectly. the last part of saga: they now claim one of the numbers is invalid, but if you simply google for it it comes up
phf: as a valid ifsc
mircea_popescu: yep. usg banks won't do intl wires, for a decade+ now ☟︎
mircea_popescu: they very transparently pretend ineptitude, but it's pretty clearly fed instructions.
mircea_popescu: (and if you try to drive cash to mexico they'll try and steal it ; and if you eg open a foreign corp with a subsidiary in the us and send the money home they'll pretend you're engaging in money laundering, and in general expatriating your wealth is generally more difficult than it's worth, which is why sane people do not live in the us.)
mircea_popescu: also why eg apple doesn't wire to new york the proceeds of sales in paris.
mircea_popescu: conversely of course, every dollar you do take out of the us hurts the usg considerably ; i'd guess the going rate is 130k expatriated is about equivalent to shooting a nypd officer in the face.
mircea_popescu: about there.
phf: hmm
phf: might just have to fall back to cash, i was trying to be prim and proper, alas
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605116 << worked great last i tried it ( 2013 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 16:28 mircea_popescu: yep. usg banks won't do intl wires, for a decade+ now
asciilifeform: but i was sending small (few $k usd) amount.
mircea_popescu: well supposedly in moscow there also lived a fellow who always found fish at the meat shop and to this day has nfi what everyone was on about.
asciilifeform: note, i will not claim that there is necessarily still fish at that particular meat shop.
asciilifeform: or would have been if the planets had been aligned differently, etc.
mircea_popescu: incidentally this'd have been a great show, i imagine, guy going on street idly, happening on meat shop just as the truck unloads, and generally doing a grand blond a la chaussure noire but a la russe.
mircea_popescu: did this exist ?
asciilifeform: not afaik, but perhaps phf saw such a thing.
mircea_popescu: Mr. Serendipivse
asciilifeform: lel
mircea_popescu: almost sounds georgian neh ?
mircea_popescu: which yes, subtext :D how did you call these ? they were sopirle in romanian
mircea_popescu: ie lizards.
asciilifeform: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1Mfa3YXAAEpmGy.jpg << relatedly.
phf: so i called the new branch of the bank i'm transferring to, they confirmed the ifsc number. i'm not sure what i prefer, the fed theory or the incompetence theory. either...
phf: *new york branch
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/stOV3 << in other olds >> elaborate yarn re 'mysterious' habit of u.s. soldiers, of bashing in the heads of killed goatfuckers. presented as 'atrocious' and 'senseless' etc. and i read whole spittoon waiting for the obvious reason to be mentioned, and of course was not (ground beed the face, and you dun need to worry whether you executed the hit on exactly the right d00d..)
asciilifeform: *beef
asciilifeform: lulzy, they even issued little axes for this work.
asciilifeform: (avoid wasting ammo)
phf: i thought little axes were standard issue item, sort of like a sapper spade
asciilifeform: claims -- not
asciilifeform: (certainly not in regular infantry)
asciilifeform: !~later tell trinque re: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605086 >> plz consider posting recipe for musltronic emacs build! i promise to test. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 15:55 trinque: I built on musl lots of times before
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: (iirc all versions of emacs from past decade or so have some kind of perverse hardcoded reliance on glibc in particular)
phf: did anybody do a musl sbcl? i have a musl cmucl in the backlog, but way down the list (perhaps once i get this x60 going)
asciilifeform: phf: not afaik
asciilifeform: ... what does the thing even ~need~ libc for?!
asciilifeform: (i can clearly see that my copy is linked with it. but -- why?)
phf: sb-unix
asciilifeform: aah
asciilifeform: does it follow that libc can be omitted entirely if one nixes sb-unix ?
phf: but i think sb-unix exposes some kernel level shit, because need it for reading files and exec and such
asciilifeform: hm ok
asciilifeform: all of the crud that will have to be rewritten on (hypothetical) sbcl-on-iron, conveniently.
asciilifeform: phf: would you say that cmucl is more suited for 'iron' incarnation? (i.e., can it be build without gcc?)
asciilifeform: *built
phf: so i don't know how sbcl does it, but cmucl has unix.lisp, which kernel relies on early on in the operation, and yes, contains all the "talk to the world" crud. cmucl actually does some hack where only subset of unix is used for operations and then when you (require unix) it adds some of the userspace
trinque: phf: the gentoo musl overlay has sbcl patches iirc. gotta forgo threads
phf: there's was a wip fork of making linux-unix.lisp talk directly using syscalls without libc. that's probably lowest common denominator
asciilifeform: trinque: pretty strange, because threads work fine in musltronic trb
phf: who knows with threads, i wouldn't be surprised if sbcl touches them in very inappropriate, glibc specific ways
phf: one of the major reasons why porting cmucl might be easier, a lot more naive image construction (doesn't have that whole sb! sb- machinery), and lack of threads
phf: *porting cmucl to raw iron
asciilifeform can picture this.
asciilifeform: traditional headaches turn to wins, the fewer 'native xyz...' the better, for iron.
phf: cmucl is basically a very straightforward lisp machine port, so there's less unixisms built in. sbcl is modernized for unix, but with corresponding tradeoffs
asciilifeform: incidentally imho traditional unix-style scheduler is not appropriate for 'x86 iron lisps'
asciilifeform: instead ought to simply have 1 permanently-running instance of the runtime per cpu core
asciilifeform: with some means of communication between.
asciilifeform: phf: did you ever expand on why your gadget crashed daily when it sat on top of cmucl ?
asciilifeform: was it a unixism ?
phf: well, you were right, it's the lack of threads. you can't build for cmucl green threads like it's native.
asciilifeform: this i recall. but didja ever find out specifically why.
asciilifeform: as in, 'the locking system is defective in yet-undiscovered way, proggy fandangoes over own toes'
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605148 << https://cgit.gentoo.org/proj/musl.git/tree/app-editors/emacs/files << without claims to the sanity of anything done ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 17:16 asciilifeform: !~later tell trinque re: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605086 >> plz consider posting recipe for musltronic emacs build! i promise to test.
asciilifeform: ty trinque !
phf: no, i
asciilifeform: trinque: you tested, worx? also on x11 ?
asciilifeform: also it does seem to insist on dynamic linking.
phf: no, i'm not that far in the stack to tackle threading. because of goals, if i do, or once i do rather, i'll just work on making them better green threads, rather than native.
asciilifeform: phf: well yes, 'metal' cmucl would need own scheduler regardless.
trinque: asciilifeform: yeah works; I had it built against gtk2, -dbus, etc
asciilifeform: trinque: pretty neat.
asciilifeform: seems like a fully-musltronic, work-ready linux is possible, then. ☟︎
asciilifeform: emacs, gcc4.9+gnat, build tools, trb, kernel.
phf: well, stali has a musltronic pdf reader and web (they have their own wrapper around webkit, called st i believe, which is literally just a frame with addressbar)
asciilifeform: (then perhaps some luxuries, e.g., 'midnight'. then x11 and ratpoison. is pretty much all.
asciilifeform: )
asciilifeform: phf: webkit builds musltronically?!
phf: re cmucl threads i think that it doesn't always preempt correctly. like it has explicit yield, which you don't always have to call, but it being there implies. also hunchentoot wasn't working right without putting a yield somewhere in the scheduler. it's all very vague, because i've not spend any time looking at it
asciilifeform: sounds gnarly
phf: there's some strategy in building multithreading in a lisp that all the commercial lisps share with cmucl and that's different from sbcl, but i'm not quite sure what it is yet
asciilifeform: imho this is one of those things that will have to be demolished ~100% and rebuilt from scratch , for any reasonable 'metallization'
asciilifeform: also (and iirc i discussed this on my www at one point) the correct approach is to ditch the native compiler, in favour of the interpreter, hand-compiled to fit in L0 cache ☟︎
asciilifeform: then thing has a chance of working correctly.
phf: so cmucl introduced this whole idea of vops (virtual operation)
asciilifeform: these are just asm macros neh ?
asciilifeform: or is it 'bytecode' a la tinyscheme? ☟︎
phf: it's sort of "writing assembly with sexp", but really it's an abstraction layer for what used to be microcoding
phf: so cmucl's compiler interleaves vops, while cmucl's interpreter uses vops as bytecode instructions
asciilifeform: interleaves forth-style ?
phf: well, that's not the right term to use. depending on a vop it either jmps, calls or inlines
asciilifeform: so liquishit
asciilifeform: (this imho is quite sorry state, you oughta be able to go from the executable TO the lisp representation without ANY info loss)
asciilifeform: and -- necessarily -- vice-versa.
phf: so eval directly on source, without a vm even?
asciilifeform: not necessarily, though it is one way of achieving this.
phf: actually it's all a lot more clearer when you read the early cmucl papers. the mess grew in unix user space..
phf: you could maybe put cmucl's interpreter vm into l0, have vops as operations that you need but that you don't have in a vm (simd, floating point)
asciilifeform: the two major caltrops re 'iron lisps on x86' are 1) interrupts 2) dma ☟︎
asciilifeform: they both violate whatever sane execution model you pick
phf: right
phf: fit cadr interpreter into l0 :P
asciilifeform: sorta what asciilifeform tried to do (then barfed.)
thestringpuller: http://visual6502.org/
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: linked in the logs.
thestringpuller: #!s http://visual6502.org
thestringpuller: !#s http://visual6502.org
a111: 4 results for "http://visual6502.org", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fvisual6502.org
thestringpuller: btcbase search didn't show it from browser. weird.
phf: thestringpuller: which string did you use originally?
thestringpuller: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fvisual6502.org%2F << that one
thestringpuller: that trailing slash >> http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fvisual6502.org
phf: hah
trinque quite interested to hear why asciilifeform barfed
asciilifeform: trinque: tldr: interrupts and dma.
trinque: ah ok, thoughts were connected
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605192 << this wouldn't hurt anything. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 17:31 asciilifeform: seems like a fully-musltronic, work-ready linux is possible, then.
asciilifeform: trinque: i must note: just because asciilifeform barfed, does not mean that a clean solution to the problem cannot exist. only that he did not find one.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605206 << i always thought that's what yarvin was john smithing with his "jets" ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 17:40 asciilifeform: or is it 'bytecode' a la tinyscheme?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nah, 'jets' were a terrifying crackpottery where he promised to 'recognize algorithms' and 'transparently' substitute in optimized/c-tronic routines
mircea_popescu: yes but started (at least i think) as vops.
asciilifeform: well ~all interpreted programming languages use 'bytecode' or some variant (i.e. emulator for fictional cpu that fits the task)
asciilifeform: e.g., perl, python, tinyscheme, many forths
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: name 'bytecode' simply came about because making the opcodes 1 octet long is convenient
asciilifeform: (yet unpublished) 'p' is a 'bytecode' system -- all ops are 1 byte long, and take no operands, and all bytes are valid ops.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605218 << actually non-interrupt / non-dma (and possibly tagged ram) is about the reason to make own fpga cpu ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 17:49 asciilifeform: the two major caltrops re 'iron lisps on x86' are 1) interrupts 2) dma
asciilifeform: well yes.
mircea_popescu: interrupts ffs. wtf.
asciilifeform: is how i got there.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i figured re p when i saw your padder attempt.
asciilifeform: interrupts, dma, are relics from dark age when there was 1 cpu and it cost most of what the machine cost.
asciilifeform: they make it possible to actually do any work on von neumann monstrosity.
asciilifeform: at the cost of destroying whatever conceptual integrity machine might otherwise have.
asciilifeform: (instead of 1 model of computation, you now have 3 -- that you know about. plus others, unwanted, resulting from interactions b/w the 3.)
mircea_popescu: oh and also - automated ring buffer allocation. if you declare 8 bytes and write 9, you overwrite your first. YOUR first. not someone else's.
mircea_popescu: which'd be interesting if all pointers live as mod math.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ada's 'modular types' come to mind
mircea_popescu: yep. but cpu-enforced, all memory allocation is that.
mircea_popescu: your pointer is 0x88faf0:0a and god help you, if you wish to write 500 bytes in there all the better.
mircea_popescu: you'll be left with the last 10
asciilifeform: holy fuq why would you give the operator raw pointers.
asciilifeform: why not also raw voltages.
mircea_popescu: at some point raw pointers must be given to someone
mircea_popescu: not necessarily operator, but also none of the current straight on addressing bs.
mircea_popescu: cpu can not address memory in the sense of "from here to eternity".
mircea_popescu: cpu can only address memory if the correct size (0a) is provided for 0x88faf0.
asciilifeform: how cpu physically moves the bits, is quite separate question from what operator thinks about.
mircea_popescu: yah, but i want this quite exactly, for it to not be POSSIBLE for memory to be addressed as it currently is.
mircea_popescu: ie "i want to read from x onwards".
mircea_popescu: it must not be possible to read from x unless you correctly specify the ring size.
asciilifeform: the simplest way to do this using current off-the-shelf hardware is to not expose the pointers.
mircea_popescu: promise.
asciilifeform: aha, and know why ?
mircea_popescu: i want the cpu to not be physically capable of addressing it.
asciilifeform: because peripherals .
mircea_popescu: fuck peripherals.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for so long as memory is sold as a dumb capacitor grid, cpu can necessarily address all of it (that is, all of the connected ones)
asciilifeform: but if you had something clever in mind, around this, i'm all ears
mircea_popescu: that doesn't mean the cpu die must be cast in such a way as to allow anyone else to do it.
asciilifeform: 'anyone else' being operator ?
mircea_popescu: if you fail to provide the buffer size, cpu reads 0 bits from address specified.
mircea_popescu: if you provide buffer size, and it is the correct buffer size for offset, you can read that many bits.
mircea_popescu: if it is incorrect, you read 0 bits.
mircea_popescu: same for writingt.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in sane programming system (e.g., lisps) nobody gets to point to 'memory address'. they point to an item that necessarily and unseparably carries not only address (not visible to or alterable by the operator, normally) but also a type and -- when the thing is >1 machine word in size -- a size.
mircea_popescu: yes but that's an os.
asciilifeform: on a proper lispm (definitionally) it is done by the iron.
mircea_popescu: i don't want the functionality exposed.
asciilifeform: aha so mircea_popescu is simply asking for lispm, lol.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: i don't disagree.
mircea_popescu: if it actually does that.
mircea_popescu: i suppose its tagged memory model does pretty much a superclass of the above
asciilifeform: it did, though not in the peculiar 'stick shift' way described by mircea_popescu earlier
mircea_popescu: yeah
mircea_popescu: i don't insist re implementation ; was just included as example
mircea_popescu: anyway. all pointer references to read must be offset:size or no dice ; all pointer references to write may be offset, and will write mod size ; all pointer allocation specifies size and receives offset.
mircea_popescu: and literally &p:sizeof(p*) calls throughout all c, none of this current bs.
asciilifeform: on a proper lispmtronic comp, there is no juggling of 'pointers' or any other naked, unannotated bitstrings.
mircea_popescu: i imagine it prolly also works. ianale
asciilifeform: if cpu wants to move, add, subtract, etc. a bitstring, it has a length glued to it, and a type (that indicates, among other things, what it means to 'add' it, say), also glued to it.
mircea_popescu: yeah and then interpreter bitches if wrong types, so it catches size issues by default.
mircea_popescu: my model is... well, aptly put, stick shift. ie, even if dudes wanna bitch about lisp, because "c is faster", the above STILL APPLIES
asciilifeform mutters something about naggum's bathtub catapult
mircea_popescu: i must say candi_lustt made it obvious lisp is workable development. way the fuck faster than figuring out which stdio to include and dumb shit like that
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and picture if it had been on your actual comp.
asciilifeform: (instead of uploading proggy repeatedly and waiting for output)
mircea_popescu: pic related : http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-01-18.log.html#t22:58:43 and whole discussion
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no i liked that part.
mircea_popescu: but this may just be me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'd get quite painful for a large proggy. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: large teams, small programs. not the other fucking way around.
mircea_popescu: good brothel = many whores, small building. not vice-versa. that's called "beachfront property".
mircea_popescu: incidentally, if the various dreppers etcs actually had any friends, the whole rot wouldn't exist in the first place.
mircea_popescu: it's quite evident from their gestalt they're coding with flashlight under the covers.
asciilifeform: maggots dun have plans, or objectives, they simply eat.
trinque: nah, the idea that these guys are using this as a substitute for healthy human interaction is spot on.
trinque: see the conferences, "social coding", hackathons, etc
mircea_popescu: ayup.
mircea_popescu: "i'll get everyone to do X!"
mircea_popescu: dude... just get everyone to show up saturday night already, nevermind this dumb shit. buy some wine.
mircea_popescu: "i'm so terrifying of talking to that cute wallflower i'ma revolutionize the $name like $name for $name instead!11"
mircea_popescu: and in scandalous coincidence : me puts on pair of pants, at 3:30 pm. sticks hand in left pocket, out comes condom wrapper. sticks hand in right, out comes... different condom wrapper.
mircea_popescu: i guess i haven't worn these since i was last on roof.
asciilifeform: i thought mircea_popescu ends up with DShK shells in pockets when comes back from roof.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605315 << yet shouldn't be overlooked that several folks came to play immediately when there was a shared repl available ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 18:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'd get quite painful for a large proggy.
trinque: it made an arena. good people like those.
trinque: and aside all other bullshit uses of "social coding", that ~was~
trinque: one can see what was useful in the experiment and not get fixated on the particular implementation
trinque has had plenty of good coding afternoons where one person drove keyboard and >=1 others hollered and pointed
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/01/tim-draper-theranos-targeted-by-conspiracy/ << Qntra - Tim Draper: Theranos Targeted By "Conspiracy"
mircea_popescu: nah, what'd i fire at
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah, like cs for thinking people.
ben_vulpes: for pete_dushenski on the topic of studded bike tires https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5IYSrLFUY
phf: https://github.com/dekuNukem/fap80 z80 based computer
phf: it uses the word "modern" a lot, but from cursory glance it doesn't look insane
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/cool-it-carol/ << Trilema - Cool it, Carol!
ben_vulpes: FAP
ben_vulpes: FAP FAP FAP
asciilifeform: phf et al: actually this is example of TERRIBLE 'retrocomp' design
asciilifeform: it offloads a megatonne of work onto a modern micro
asciilifeform: is in no real 1980s sense 'fits in head'
phf: well, it's a lispm kind of architecture, with a single central controller, and extension boards of various degrees of dirty. though i guess the real "core" here is the opaque STM32
asciilifeform: phf: aha. the z80 is ~decorative on such a box.
asciilifeform: folx keep makin' these nonsense abortions.
phf: i didn't know what stm32 was, i thought it was some PIC variation
asciilifeform: and i can see why they do it, even buying ~one~, e.g., UART, today, is not easy
asciilifeform: phf: arm
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: is NSA-TRB down? started up an old node to sync... and get: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6m3GH/?raw=true
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it's up but blackholed ☟︎
asciilifeform: (my log tail looks quite like thestringpuller's paste)
asciilifeform: megatonne of 'socket no message in first 60 seconds, 1 0' etc.
asciilifeform: phf, ben_vulpes : http://searle.hostei.com/grant/cpm/#Schematic << much better z80ism
asciilifeform: (0 anachronisms)
asciilifeform: and no, cf card is not anachronism, it runs in ata-compatibility mode
shinohai: Perhaps of interest to mats http://www.ibtimes.co.in/iraq-retreating-isis-leaves-behind-unfinished-fighter-jet-mosul-712914
shinohai: They were SO CLOSE
asciilifeform: (d00d ~does~ offer a schematic for 'keyboard and vga' using modern micro, at the end of the page, though)
asciilifeform: shinohai: jet ?!
asciilifeform: reminds me of idiot joke from 1990s
asciilifeform: ukr ministry of culture says: 'ancient ukrs had radio! we have proof'
asciilifeform: interviewer: 'what's the proof'
asciilifeform: ukr: 'our archaeologists have turned up no wires...'
trinque: lol
shinohai: xD
shinohai: To me appears most of hull is cloth stretched over a frame, or are those wrinkles?
asciilifeform: looks like honest attempt at a glider, possibly
asciilifeform: 'we found no propeller! MUST BE JET'
asciilifeform: why not ufo.
asciilifeform: with antigrav motor.
asciilifeform: phf: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/ << lulzy, ALL of the building instructions for cmucl -- 404 !!
asciilifeform: this thing makes ~my~ horrors look well-documented.
asciilifeform: srsly, all 4 links under the 'Developer info' category, are duds
asciilifeform: why the fuck even bother with having the other docs
asciilifeform: if the motherfucker cannot be BUILT without whole day of reverse-engineering
phf: well, that's my favorite one https://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/crosscompile.html
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: 'To be written.'
asciilifeform: y'know, this is how folx end up on a scaffold with mircea_popescu pissing down their neckstump
asciilifeform: and i have 0 sympathy.
phf: what "folks"?
asciilifeform: 'developers'
asciilifeform: 'open sores' folx.
phf: again what "folks"?
asciilifeform: #ifdef DEBUG_BAD_HEAP
asciilifeform: /*
asciilifeform: * For some reason x86 has a heap corruption problem. I (rtoy)
asciilifeform: * have not been able to figure out how that occurs, but what is
asciilifeform: * happening is that when a core is loaded, there is some static
asciilifeform: * object pointing to an object that is on a free page. In normal
asciilifeform: * usage, at startup there should be 4 objects in static space
asciilifeform: * pointing to a free page, because these are newly allocated
asciilifeform: * objects created by the C runtime. However, there is an
asciilifeform: * additional object.
asciilifeform: *
asciilifeform: * I do not know what this object should be or how it got there,
asciilifeform: * but it will often cause CMUCL to fail to save a new core file.
asciilifeform: ^ save.c. this looks terrifying.
asciilifeform: phf (or anybody else?) -- dare i ask, how the fuck does one BUILD IT
asciilifeform: is the idea 'read the code for a month and then MAYBE you will realize in what order to build'
ben_vulpes: dog if that's a jet fighter i'm the ceo of apple
asciilifeform: fart-propelled
asciilifeform: http://www.ljosa.com/~ljosa/doc/encycmuclopedia/devenv/README-build-instructions.txt << phf if this is current, then i am officially cured of all desire to have anything to do with the thing
asciilifeform: travail arabe.
ben_vulpes: i was certain that we'd done the 'omg cmucl compilation' lolz thread before; is this a time loop? where are picard and riker
asciilifeform: !#s cmucl build
a111: 5 results for "cmucl build", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cmucl%20build
ben_vulpes: ah yes, 'twas adlai who brought do
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543330 << not so long ago. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 02:43 adlai: this is funny: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/cmucl-build/00_README but this is funnier: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/crosscompile.html
phf: even http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543331 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 02:43 asciilifeform: ## Recompiling CMUCL is not an exact science... ##
asciilifeform: looks like same result.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543400 << here we go. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 02:57 mircea_popescu: how can you lot put up with these idiots ?
asciilifeform: in fact we had the thread!!
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: honeslty, should probably go with whatever either phf used to run btcbase or ben_vulpes used to run candi.
asciilifeform: iirc both are on sbcl
asciilifeform: which is ~unsuitable for 'metallization', see today's earlier thread.
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: (sbcl runs well today precisely because it is 'sharpened' for linux)
mircea_popescu: "metallization" is way premature in any case.
asciilifeform: aaaactually if sbcl, cmucl, or whichever lisptron, could be whittled down to 'get char', 'put char', 'malloc' -- could be on iron tonight.
phf: nyef actually spent a lot of effort trying to put sbcl on raw hardware, and he's a competent hacker (he also did sbcl port to arm for example)
mircea_popescu: but they can't.
asciilifeform: phf: is this experiment documented somewhere?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what i wanted to establish was the ~whynot~
mircea_popescu: because dma and interrupts ; and bad memory addressing.
asciilifeform: you can lose dma if you're willing to lose nic and video.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "string" isn't there just to fuck with mp's ai bot.
mircea_popescu: what "char" ?
asciilifeform: octet from/to uart.
mircea_popescu: if only.
asciilifeform: it's enough to operate a very basic comp.
asciilifeform: (quite enough for a forth, say.)
mircea_popescu: this octet from/to uart doth not exist as such on extant hardware.
asciilifeform: theoretically you can, e.g., host www on just an uart. ☟︎
phf: asciilifeform: there are text files (he makes adequate technical logs of most of his efforts. i'm using his notes to recreate arm port for cmucl), but i won't be able to find them at the moment (i'm not on my main machine)
mircea_popescu: theroetically you can lick your own anus.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it exists, i have run number crunching routines this way.
phf: i'm pretty sure he was doing around the same time as you were doing loper, so i'm surprised you haven't seen it. i think he might've been doing it under TUNES umbrella
asciilifeform: boot sector loads a few 100 kB of hand-rolled code, and talks solely via uart.
asciilifeform: you can do actual work this way.
mircea_popescu: you will not "whittled down to 'get char', 'put char', 'malloc'"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in point of fact, tinyscheme does.
asciilifeform: but is unsuitable for different reason (it has no compiler, is a c proggy, cannot compile self)
mircea_popescu: i don't recall, what was the objection to tinyscheme as the root ?
asciilifeform: see above. it needs gcc.
mircea_popescu: ahahah. so "in point of fact tinyscheme doesn't"
phf: so far only person who wrote anything for tinyscheme is myself, and tinyscheme is more of a PoC than anything else. bignums for example were ~unreasonably~ expensive
asciilifeform: phf: this is theoretically solvable. but it's a c proggy.
mircea_popescu: phf was abortive experiment in eulora too.
phf: "<nyef> (Speaking as someone who wrote his own standalone Forth and then used it to load a stripped-down hacked SBCL core on bare metal x86.)"
mircea_popescu: was this in #lisp ?
phf: actually i should probably track his notes down, but it might be easier to just ask him
phf: yeah, 2010
asciilifeform: ~somebody~ has to have 1) attempted this 2) not burned all of his work in fireplace in disillusioned despair
mircea_popescu: #lisp is pretty fucking dead.
ben_vulpes: aye
mircea_popescu: for one thing who are the people there even ?
ben_vulpes: occasionally i ask a question and someone answers
ben_vulpes: "bike" is useful, "beach" is responsible for some amount of CLIM...
jurov: asciilifeform: i think these somebodies went on to make their own lisp dialect, using python build system or jvm or llvm or somesuch
mircea_popescu: http://lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/how-it-works-2008-04-19.txt < at least part.
asciilifeform: jurov: they may also have gone to the bottle, for all i care
asciilifeform: jurov: i am interested strictly in the record re the relevant bits.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi why it has to come in scattered 2 page text files
mircea_popescu: they should hang kids in jr high by their ballsac until they learn to blog every day.
phf: he used to have a top level domain with artifacts that he was producing. txt files of notes, diffs for sbcl etc
mircea_popescu: yes but it's gone.
phf: http://lisphacker.com/temp/lispos/os-0.9.14-m3.patch
mircea_popescu: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?from=2015-12-20T19 << there's a log, insanely shitty with too much js to run, but i think it may go back usefully.
asciilifeform: poor sad nonvtronic patch. go and try to find WHAT he patched.
mircea_popescu: phf that shitty "lisphacker.com" thing that spits the most obnoxious errors, really bitch, "no such key" ?
mircea_popescu: !#s haverbeke
a111: 0 results for "haverbeke", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=haverbeke
mircea_popescu: !#s bridgewater
a111: 3 results for "bridgewater", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bridgewater
mircea_popescu: (nyef = alistair bridgewater, from the pw:rn subdirectorate of intel)