mircea_popescu: (no weddings were bombed, totally not the same as aleppo etc)
mircea_popescu: classical wall mounted thing with directional controls etc
mircea_popescu: check it out asciilifeform isis shot down a helicopter
mircea_popescu: know from backchannels and the fact that the govt isn't making a point "oh, they had bazooka"
mircea_popescu: except it was a distance the helicopter actually flew at.
mircea_popescu: "black woman and former Mary Kay sales professional Ella Jones" ahaha
mircea_popescu: !!v 542F8B4F2D22F9C3744F50E79C0E158AC581AFAFA99C1104D0D79133F9A29744
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated skydragon 1 << seems hardworking enough.
mircea_popescu: for the record, i was trying to watch a comedy. half hour in i'm like... feh, i wonder what trilema's up to
BingoBoingo: Trump Shoves 60 cruise missiles into Syrian Airfield's Pussy
BingoBoingo: Not necessarily yet. Dog wagging has long tradition in US politics as way to beat the media up with itself. "Support our troops/missiles" gambit
trinque: still very much open whether he says "alright, I did something" and leaves, or starts another Iraq
BingoBoingo: And recently russian has expressed "limits" to support of Assad. Perhaps A-10 and Su-25 regime change Syria in harmony to MWGA
BingoBoingo: Well, 4 remaining US battleships all museums
BingoBoingo: Bah, those are smaller ships and a couple converted ballistic missile submarines
BingoBoingo: "“Unlike the previous administration, President Trump confronted a pivotal moment in Syria and took action,” said Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC)." << Apparently Trump satisfied the Lich's war boner.
BingoBoingo: "Good night and God bless America and the entire world. Thank you." << On the otherhand could be hint of MWGA effort
mircea_popescu: trinque well it'll be a little difficult to start another iraq seeing how the ru planes actually work.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, there's dark silence from moscow ; seems altogether likely the chinese won this round.
mircea_popescu: ah lol. i thought for a moment they actually were going for the fortifications there.
phf: i was just shooting that earlier today...
phf: i thought that's 9mm, but i guess that makes sense. fwiw cheapest round at the range
mircea_popescu: why's the thing sold as "mit produces nutcase" anyway. 40 yo, what the fuck relation does college have
mircea_popescu: lmao "one count of possession of a silencer" ? really ?
mircea_popescu: and wtf is anyone training for with that shit ? "how to be totally surprised by recoil and shoot your own hat" ?
BingoBoingo: And rimfire so can be stamped out at trivial cost, while brass is unreloadable with civilian equipment
BingoBoingo: centerfire fine, presses. People have automated setups at home
mircea_popescu: i might be a little slow on the uptake, but what is tomahawk supposed to do to airstrip ?
mircea_popescu: so spend 2mn to make a pothole costs 300 bucks to fix ?
BingoBoingo: Anyways, never though to consider before today that rimfire might be reloadable. The moar you know.
BingoBoingo: Point of firing tomahawks is almsot never about what they do. It is about demonstrating that you go through the motions of doing things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform oddly they didn't even shoot them down serbian style ?
BingoBoingo: Perhaps Russia flipped syrian air defense off?
BingoBoingo: Surely Putin must know of American dog wagging rituals.
BingoBoingo: "Support our troops" took Dubya approval ratings from toilet to 80%+ Imagine what a war that ended would do!
mircea_popescu: more accurately, it'd look like what a thing that looked like something used to look.
BingoBoingo: "Member when we had a white president who liked our country"
BingoBoingo: Anyways onion is fine model for the cognitive dissonance possessed by typical USer
mircea_popescu: btw, whosoever wants a good dose of mosfilm in english, try "west point story". cagney's blond even.
CompanionCube: 'An attacker within range may be able to execute arbitrary code on the Wi-Fi chip'
☟︎ Framedragger: bhah she's actually retracting her words so i guess not!
trinque: maybe erdogan gassed the poar syrians
trinque: guy seems like he's gunning for sandfuhrer 2020
mircea_popescu: im kinda surprised they sat by with the mosul base did ~nothing
a111: Logged on 2017-04-06 19:00 asciilifeform: in other noose, phuctor stats now ~unloadable
trinque: simple fix is to crap out a stats page static file at interval.
☟︎ trinque: or we can just wait patiently as phuctor toils for the republic
Framedragger: yes indeed, however asciilifeform's initial objection (besides other less clear unwillingness) was the requirement for phuctor to show 'live data'. which imho is not necessary.
☟︎ Framedragger: especially as regards *aggregated* stats (the index stats page) - so what if it lags for up to $interval
trinque: no such thing, only varying degrees of delayed data
Framedragger: current situation is that it does that for every web request..
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 13:16 mircea_popescu: the problem was that db waits for writes to read iirc.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 13:13 Framedragger: yes indeed, however asciilifeform's initial objection (besides other less clear unwillingness) was the requirement for phuctor to show 'live data'. which imho is not necessary.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 13:12 trinque: simple fix is to crap out a stats page static file at interval.
trinque: there's already a function that renders that page...
mircea_popescu: yes but i know it in fact does from you know, running trilema.
trinque: man, I've worked on pg databases that did nothing but write *and* read concurrently while sitting on a few hundred million rows
trinque: the politics of asciilifeform doth seep into the use of thing he doesn't like
trinque: no shame in that, but it's what that is
trinque: successive aggregate calculation tables aside main table
trinque: can even fire the updates inside the db with triggers, so everything is transactionally accurate
trinque: i.e. counts are always correct
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, i on occasion do multi-row updates. such as (lolz) recently when i made every entry of the 50k items in article db read the same thing.
mircea_popescu: these can take minutes, and the site isn't down during, at all.
mircea_popescu: pretty sure you weren't able to do it after i fucked it
mircea_popescu: table got marked crashed, so all you could load would be the comments, sorta funny half-trilema
trinque: two thoughts, beyond which a look at the actual thing would be needed. 1) queues and workers, always 2) db acts as your queue, schema reflects the stages of work
trinque: oh and 3) rendering www is a stage of work
trinque: doing all this in the request/response cycle will kill ya eventually
mircea_popescu: a db write is either insert or update ; finding out things is usually a select. it ~may~ be worthwhile to separate your reads from the writes, because it is technically possible (thopugh i'd hope unlikely) the db is dumb enough to put write locks in for something like "update x on y" even though it should be "select y if z then update x".
mircea_popescu: this is ~what trinque said except his is more general.
trinque: only way to deal with the nonsense that one "must" respond to allcomers "now"
trinque: could get me a pg connection and I could listen for pg_notify on a trigger of that table
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trilema ~delays~ rss, you udnerstasnd me ?
trinque: yes, send me the bursts as they happen, don't render the RSS each time
mircea_popescu: go right ahead, produce a list of 5k rss items, THEN dole them out slowly.
trinque: this is www born nonsense that communication may only run one way, client can't listen for changes
trinque: which is why I interact with it through means that do *not* block as it does
mircea_popescu: (ftr, at least once in itgs history trilema updated 6.5k times/day
Framedragger: asciilifeform: have you tried postgres index-only scans? have you tried materialised views? if not, the "postgres must die" sounds sorta surface-level, imho
Framedragger: index-only scans allow to search in a table without 'touching', or 'locking' the actual rows (which may be simultaneously written-to, at the same time)
Framedragger: not afaik. these are to do with *reading* only. but trinque may chime in
Framedragger: materialised views - ditto regarding *reading only*
Framedragger: again, no, and as per ACID, no dirty reads (*not a bad thing here*)
Framedragger: obtw which postgres version on phuctor asciilifeform? those two features not available in old versions. i don't remember which ver is in debian stable
trinque: materialized views are nothing more than a named query which stores its results in a table
trinque: and which you can refresh at interval
shinohai: lol Jason Dreyzehner "Head of Design" at buttpay followed me on twitter. Perhaps staring at T&A will be useful in making UI decisions.
trinque: they are useful for calculating aggregates as I was describing.
trinque: can cron the "refresh materialized view"
Framedragger: and ^ is effectively a cache of sorts (useful here)
trinque: these as queue tables for stages of work are also useful
trinque: however it may be saner to completely divorce the algorithmic part from sql
trinque: just fart results into sql for wwwtron
Framedragger: ...no, lol, the *results* are 'cached', you still regen html (but this is computationally trivial neh)
trinque: so here's what relational db was supposed to be for, like bash originally had a 'supposed to be for'
trinque: it's a goddamned spreadsheet; you're supposed to compute elsewhere and then fart your results in there so somebody managerial can ask it questions
Framedragger: btw, i once screwed around with memoization in flask. iirc something can be done here as well, asciilifeform (it may be as trivial as adding a decorator before the function which handles GET request)
trinque: it grew beyond this scope the same reason bash did, or anything else that was originally a user interface
mircea_popescu: trinque> materialized views are nothing more than a named query which stores its results in a table << this is a convenience not a speed-up
trinque: it's a speedup for someone loading the stats page
trinque: and keeps him from reading the same table he's writing
trinque: thing's designed for parallelism yes, but of the same exact data in same spot is a big ask
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: in materialized view, postgres can persist results of query in table-like form. so it *does* cache them; hence you can't say it's convenience only.
Framedragger: (when you query a mat view, data is returned directly from it, without touching the source live table)
trinque: which is only a thing because www is 'daddy buy me a pony now!'
trinque: irc could just tell you when done
trinque: so... lol. the other insanity people commit here is starting n pythons
trinque: because GIL or whatever they called the lock
trinque: oh I proposed nothing for this fractal hell!
trinque: haha, but hey sbcl is threaded and hunchentoot exists.
mircea_popescu: open question whether cl would be fast enough. though i know there's some people itching to answer it.
trinque: python's slower, and astonishingly so when threading
mircea_popescu: are there any known documented and running cl-anythings more or less the size phuctor'd be ?
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 06:35 CompanionCube: 'An attacker within range may be able to execute arbitrary code on the Wi-Fi chip'
trinque: asciilifeform: if stuck on python, which I grant is practical, can't really refuse the customary sins to make it go
trinque: I could tune my truck's engine all day and hauling 7000lbs vs 2000lbs will have greater effect
trinque: really the right thing to do here is sell a buncha fuckgoats, get asciilifeform rich, hire stable boy
trinque: things that are cheap that can later be thrown away
trinque: while more expensive people continue to think long-term
trinque expects to throw away any www he builds by weight 5x over the lifetime
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
trinque: otherwise yes, compromises overrun the thing
trinque: asciilifeform: I threw away first bot, and second bot, and we sit here with the 3rd
trinque: did not burn any $mil or megawatt
trinque: nor the www part of your thing
trinque: I'll close with the observation that asciilifeform's "fits in head" serves "build to iterate and throw away" very well.
shinohai:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639637 <<< This is what I said to Steemit evangelist R. Hilarski a few days ago when he accused me of just hating on altcoins. "When you lose all your BTC in scams, at least your wife is kinda hot so she can come by trilema and bare her tits for bits."
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 11:52 mircea_popescu: tits for btc -> redemption.
trinque: mircea_popescu: more clearly stated, I do not see a www as part of the algorithm of phuctor. it is one source of input where there could be many, and one output idem. with a clearly defined line between www and phuctor (even allowing for that www may require cached copies of phuctor data to operate properly), this gives you something you can nuke later and replace.
☟︎ trinque: without this separation the idiocies of www will creep in, such as "must respond to user accurately and *now*"
☟︎ trinque: meanwhile asciilifeform has no business adopting sql perversions as tools of thought; it would be demeaning
trinque: thus the notion of sticking someone in the www toilet, who manages commands of specific outputs and inputs, and above all keeps the shit in the shithouse
Framedragger: the 'www side can live on another server, even' degree of separation may be most easily achievable (given lack of resources to rewrite everything as of now) via pg notify / streaming replication. but maybe asciilifeform would insist that this is 'marrying the db'
☟︎ trinque: and when gossipd comes around and asciilifeform can dispense with www entirely, dispense with shithouse *and* shithouse creature
mircea_popescu: no i don't mean that. i just mean, yes in principl;e doing something with the plebs is not a bad idea ; but the exact what and wherefore coulo use more conteplation.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 14:02 asciilifeform: so why then is this not standard? why locks exist at all ?!
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 14:44 trinque: mircea_popescu: more clearly stated, I do not see a www as part of the algorithm of phuctor. it is one source of input where there could be many, and one output idem. with a clearly defined line between www and phuctor (even allowing for that www may require cached copies of phuctor data to operate properly), this gives you something you can nuke later and replace.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 14:45 trinque: without this separation the idiocies of www will creep in, such as "must respond to user accurately and *now*"
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 14:48 Framedragger: the 'www side can live on another server, even' degree of separation may be most easily achievable (given lack of resources to rewrite everything as of now) via pg notify / streaming replication. but maybe asciilifeform would insist that this is 'marrying the db'
mircea_popescu: it happens here, we got rid of all sorts of intermediate steps
Framedragger: asciilifeform: the parallel to "this is how winblowz blew up" breaks, imho, if you consider the splitting-off of www not as an addition, but as actual splitting-off, i.e., the box with phuctor on it may no longer have a www interface (just an option, i know you may be against it). if you picture it that way, it's more about modularisation vs. fixing and inflating a single monolithic thing.
Framedragger: (granted, these are just nice abstract words.)
shinohai: Naturally, this was to appease Russia.
shinohai: Also, strikes were designed to create moar refugees which Trump could laugh at and turn away.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: hold on. the idea was to separate reads from writes. having a separate box for www which gets updates from phuctor box, and having pg indices on it for quick search is *not* resource-intensive. i can cite examples but basically i'm quite certain that a <= 16gb memory box would suffice. phuctor box is 256 gigs yes, but it does *so much more*.
Framedragger: of course being able to point to a working prototype would do so much more than arguments. unfortunately that would most likely require the needed modifications on the phuctor box, so a bit of chicken-and-egg.
Framedragger: bandwidth? bandwidth required for phuctor box would be "what's needed to send new rows to this other box".
Framedragger: bandwidth required for the www box would be ~same as what's currently needed from phuctor.
Framedragger: now, complexity management-wise.. maybe; having same person manage both boxes may not be best idea (and the alternative has its own advantages). but the current "phuctor is down, i don't know why, it's a black box" isn't the greatest example of current setup, either. (this may be a red herring, i'm not sure)
Framedragger: well, i'm not that certain, but i am assuming you have more experience there with me. i will only remark that you merely need a *read slave*, not an actual mirror db which can handle writes and sync state. the syncing would go one way only. (hence the multiple references to pg streaming replication.)
Framedragger: (again tho, it's very easy to just point finger at features, so i'll gladly shut up)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: aha, right, that. i literally forgot about that lol. but wait, first we need to clear up the question about whether you want an immediate result to be shown to user upon gpg key submission.
Framedragger: are you absolutely unwilling to have a delay there?
Framedragger: because gotta serve all the our democracy right here and now?
Framedragger: hold on, hold on. first of all, regarding the permalink: you can have this anyway, because the hash is computed in python anyway (i ~recall the procedure that you once gave me). so,
Framedragger: you can give permalink to user on the www read-only box.
Framedragger: yes that's the tricky part. my natural answer to that would be to "drop it, have user be able to come back right away - to a permalink - but results only displayed when the upstream db actually processes and inserts the new entry. (this entry would then get fed into the slave via streaming replication)"
Framedragger: however, you won't agree to drop it, i take it.
Framedragger: alright. i will grant you that the end system wouldn't be "oh so elegantly simple", because you would have to have a submission queue (maybe something that trinque had in mind). user submits key; gets permalink (immediately); meanwhile key gets sent to master (immediately), and master puts it into "to be inserted" queue. under normal loads, the insertion happens ~immediately,
☟︎ Framedragger: and you get your 5 seconds. if the db is loaded, it gets inserted "fast", and user is able to see results upon refresh (because when it gets inserted, update gets immediately sent to slave via trigger rule.)
Framedragger: can you not picture this setup with a read-only slave, with a *separate* "give new key to master" interface (separate so that the replication doesn't become write-write but stays write-read)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
Framedragger: (again, i did realise that the "oh very simple" angle isn't strong here)
Framedragger: you are presenting a false dichotomy consisting of {current phuctor; $multi-mil db setup}. you propose to escape it by writing new db as the only way to escape it.
Framedragger: people are telling you that there is a setup which is better but not multi-mil. it does require planning, etc.
Framedragger: it was retarded of me to just throw keywords at you saying "that would do it".
Framedragger quite certain he would get erection from that small c program in phuctor, and that is great
☟︎ Framedragger: but you no longer reading from the front (in the sense of sql queries), which in db-land is good for performance.
Framedragger: it is updated in ~realtime from the master via streaming replication
Framedragger: which means, "whenever new row, send it off [without having to execute a new select query etc]"
Framedragger: that is fine, and a postgres trigger would mean that any affected row gets sent off. i do understand that new-key-addition is a db-intense process, of course
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 15:30 asciilifeform: this is how winblowz ended up with bookcase-length api, people.
Framedragger: (just so i don't feel like just throwing random verbiage at you, what i mean is something like `CREATE TRIGGER setup_send_update AFTER INSERT OR UPDATE ON phuctor FOR EACH ROW EXECUTE PROCEDURE send_update);` - it wouldn't be hard to try.)
trinque: my proposal was to put your turdworks in a box
trinque: not let them seep all through
trinque: you *have* turdworks by your own decision to use www (which I think is reasonable)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: fwiw i'd be willing to set up a read slave on 16gb dedi box (siphnos, unmetered connection) for fri, that part is not hard imho. sure, if/when decision would be made to *actually expose it to everyone*, things could be moved (and maintained by someone else), but this is one way to prototype things.
Framedragger: rewriting 60000 lines for this.. how does that follow..
Framedragger: if people decide to compromise on things after an agreement was made not to, i mean.. fuck those people
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yeah i said some stupid things, apologies for depressing you there
trinque: I find the notion that asciilifeform here is the only guy capable of adhering to own standards lulzy
trinque: if so dispense with republic, bring on teh stalin
trinque: asciilifeform: you did not seriously cogitate on anything I sad for more than 5 seconds
trinque: ^ find reference for this pls
trinque: so you're talking to me about Framedragger's whatever, k
Framedragger: (i'll just note that the *permalink* can be derived on the slave box, and nowhere did i say something contradicting this)
☟︎ trinque: I'm not defending that because it's not what I said.
trinque: you conflate the paper delivery kid with the printing works and the writers and, and, at your own design
Framedragger: last note before i fuck off: the "user submits key; gets permalink (immediately); meanwhile key gets sent to master (immediately), and master puts it into "to be inserted" queue" + "all inserted + updated rows get sent back to slave via streaming replication and pg trigger" doesn't look like petrocheese to me. is all.
trinque: the fuck is hard about whether a unique constraint bumped into something
trinque: you have a keys table, factors table, factors has a unique constraint on value column of factors, there is a join table called key_factor which joins key and factor
trinque: well one sec, so you're trying to establish relationship between keys and factors in the db, yes?
trinque: the "unique" is just an index which yes eggogs if insert happens and is already present. the eggog is just a matter of how do you want to find out about this
jurov: coinbr public announcement: there are some stuck orders, and it came at worst possible time. During the weekend I should be able to fix.
trinque: can do also: select exists(select 1 from factors where value = ?);
trinque: I'm of course shooting in the dark as to what happens when in what you have.
trinque: insert into factors (val) values (3) where not exists (select 1 from factors where value = 3);
☟︎ trinque: the insert statement can return its id to a calling update statement
trinque: array type in db or join table?
trinque: know mod IDs to update at this point?
trinque: does this query look up the mod IDs to append their factor arrays, or does your worker already know those
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:48 asciilifeform: trinque: can i , purely using sql query, force it to not attempt write ( and -- importantly -- to take no locks ! ) if an item already exists ?
trinque: danielpbarron: let ya know
trinque: got 10s of gigs over there free, nah
trinque: mod6 did some pretty big ones
danielpbarron: i was voiced obviously, but maybe deedbot had reconnected since then, and didn't see me as authed anymore?
shinohai: I was gonna say, all those trb artifacts were huge
danielpbarron: on a related note, which openbsd cds are specifically wanted? i did 5.5 cd1 because i have that pack opened already, and because the more useful cd2 (containing amd64) got damaged when i tried to remove it from one of my iMac G3s that wouldn't spit it back out (it also has ppc -- probably the arch of interest)
trinque: when we get it to work, all, far as I'm concerned
danielpbarron: i can do an unboxing video or something. i have 5.5 through 5.8 in original sealed packaging
☟︎ danielpbarron: i even have the missprint 5.8 and the replacement cd they sent afterwards
danielpbarron: will be interesting to see if my unopened 5.5 cd1 is the same bitwise as the one in the above mentioned deed
trinque: I'm getting on the previous batch of deeds that I have insufficient funds, which is bullshit.
trinque: then also danielpbarron this project with ISOs might take rewriting the downloader, will have to look at it
trinque: danielpbarron: lets work on getting those in next week
danielpbarron: also please let me know if my format was right. I emulated mod6's thing but maybe there's a better way to do it with iso
trinque: curl $url | head -n 30 looks fine
danielpbarron: and is it redundant to include sha512 on both the tar.gz and the iso?
trinque: danielpbarron: seems ok, maybe my tar or gzip has the HIV
deedbot: eulenspiegel voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:17 Framedragger quite certain he would get erection from that small c program in phuctor, and that is great
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:18 asciilifeform: understand, if i paste a gpg key into phuctor, and cannot then ~immediately~ link to it in-chan -- phuctor is broken!!
jhvh1: eulenspiegel, who is your Daddy and what does he do?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i thought one of the parts was a c proggy. quite certain it is, asciilifeform mentioned it multiple times. python is the web backend afaik
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:33 Framedragger: (i'll just note that the *permalink* can be derived on the slave box, and nowhere did i say something contradicting this)
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:34 asciilifeform: imho to even suggest such a thing, betrays a very serious misunderstanding of the concept. dumb humans are in every respect an inferior version of the machine. the only thing more agonizing than programming comp, is programming dumb humans.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: re "nothing here" the idea would be that upon user submitting gpg key, page reloads *instantly* (vs. near-instant page load on current phuctor - reloads only after key inserted into db), shows permalink and "waiting for insertion" msg; html could have property to auto refresh every second until master responds with any links to other keys. but i understand asciilifeform's reasons against this
mircea_popescu: you may snag some decidability issues (depending exactly how unique id is generated -- remember keys are not unique in this sense, kinda the point of phuctor)\
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 18:08 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i thought one of the parts was a c proggy. quite certain it is, asciilifeform mentioned it multiple times. python is the web backend afaik
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 17:27 danielpbarron: file is 682M -- maybe that's too big?
mircea_popescu: it's important to de-equivocate dumb ; there's two kinds of machine that may be casually referred to as dumb : one that is very slow (eg, z80) / one that is very demanding on the programmer (eg, windows). good programmer wouldn't really call z80 dumb, bad programmer wouldn't really call windows dumb. this directly translates to humans, there's a kind of dumb the incompetent identify mostly disjunct from the kind of dumb the c
mircea_popescu: no, let's also de-equivocate think. there's two kinds of think, one's a forge/reflow/examination of trees resulting in analytical consumption of inputs with actionable outputs guaranteed ; the other is a neurotic behaviour perhaps best described as spinning, whereby specific emotional triggers / detriggers are visited in succession. the prussian model was never concerned with the former in any sense, but merely aimed to elimi
☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: nate the latter ; under the (broadly correct) assumption that a quiet head works and a loud one doesn't. this isn't so different from, eg, buddhism.
mircea_popescu: as a general rule, people who can't produce genus/difference definitions for all the symbols in their own output are better off not thinking yet, as what they think thinking is isn't.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: to go back to the machine model : until you're running symbolix, don't pretend like you're computing.
mircea_popescu: and to link it to blogging : the point of blogging (daily!) is that it forces an easy and painless transition from type 2 to type 1 in the heads of the practitioners. there's no promise as to the rate of conversion, but then again that's the best you can get for painless.
Framedragger builds hasty internal map of 'mp type 1 is kahneman type 2, mp type 2 is kahneman type 1'..
mircea_popescu: which is why prussians came up with it. fought a helluva lot of recruit idiocy to arrive to the concept.
mircea_popescu: if you're wondering, mp doesn't use the reference because the introduction de novo is a paragraph, the discussion of differentiation is a book.
mircea_popescu: SORTING is the most important activity of the human brain. and you should see how much trouble well experienced slavegirls encounter when their words are interpreted on a first-priority basis.
mircea_popescu: "you couldn't have meant that because if you did mean it you'd have lead with it."
Framedragger: well historically in terms of planet timespan, type 1 got our asses to here..
mircea_popescu: you propose we also sort planets with earth in center and main sequence stars from the sun onwards ?
Framedragger: also just to note, (obvs) type 1 (mp-type 2) has its merits and is important. but yeah i got your point
Framedragger: but you don't see merits of heuristics and biases in humans?
a111: Logged on 2015-08-24 18:01 mircea_popescu: previous flight lost an engine foil, concorde ran it over, it cut a wheel, wheel exploded, large fragment of tyre hit underwing, shockwave broke a fuel tanker, fuel gushed out and caught, engineer cut the engine next, at which point they had 2km worth of runway left and needed 3 to abort.
Framedragger: they are mp2, the one with lower ordinal, and my point was that it's still hella useful. can you employ the methodical and analytical mp1 when you touch hand on hot stove? no time to route through brain.
jhvh1: hanbot: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 1193.1, Best ask: 1193.6, Bid-ask spread: 0.50000, Last trade: 1193.5, 24 hour volume: 26474.85631301, 24 hour low: 1176.7, 24 hour high: 1206.4, 24 hour vwap: None
mircea_popescu: Framedragger reflexes are not a proper subject of this discussion, seeing how we're discussing "thinking" as in, brain phenomena.
Framedragger: (but i'm probably conflating things too much, maybe you'd call such reactions something else)
Framedragger: kk. yeah i won't argue further without doing some decent mp1 thought here :)
mircea_popescu: anyway. heuristics are not involved in watching daytime drama, which is what the type 2 described above is.
trinque: comes from the spine doesn't it, or even more locally
mircea_popescu: all those shots of people both facing the camera grimacing ? 18month old baby fare.
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah, a proper reflex closes in the spine. there's opf course conditioned reflexes which close in the "brain", but not a very conscious part thereof afawk
mircea_popescu: it's iffy, human body comes out of the hackpile, inc. labs
Framedragger: i wonder how you'd categorise the 'affect heuristic' as kahneman et al. call it.; i.e., when you make decision with at least partial influence of current emotion. it's very *fast* (thereby falls under kahneman's type 1). ridiculous scenario where it's useful: i'm chased by tiger, see two paths in woods, one has sign 'DANGER' in red, i don't have time to even parse word without making decision,
mircea_popescu: i would characterise it as "they got confused on their own terminology and backported orphan chains into the story"
mircea_popescu: transparently, screamingly a case of "now that we got something, let's let church and state back in". hurr.
mircea_popescu: well, 100mn in tomahawks just about worth 100mn in migs.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:04 asciilifeform: EVERYBODY thinks they're soooo much cleverer than dumb old asciilifeform
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:05 asciilifeform: which, note, replaces, e.g., sks and other heathen idiocies.
ben_vulpes: could possibly expose some tiny fraction of user base' actual literacy skills
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i find it's very important to establish aforehand what each barbie doll will wear, do or say at the dollhouse teaparty.
mircea_popescu: i find wordplay a fine substitute for competent engineering. it betrays such a wordliness in the cunning linguist responsible.
phf: i was excited about scuttlebutt for couple of minutes. usually hacks that come out of "digital nomad" circles are at least worth looking at since they have a lot of uncommon requirements built in (must work over 14.4 dialup, etc.). until i realized it's written in javascript by a hacker with "200 packages in npm"
ben_vulpes: wake me up when they work over shortwave
phf: ben_vulpes: that's easy, someone always adds a shortwave bridge.
phf: it's hard to push anything interesting over shortwave though, unless you're prepared to do pirate broadcasting, because of crypto. can't broadcast encrypted stuff
mircea_popescu: "we have a lot of 3 people we keep recycling into stuff"
phf: you still have good old "fox hunt" though
mircea_popescu: "everything must be incompatible with fiat legal/political systems" is a fundamental requirement of republican work.
mircea_popescu: if it "obeys the law" i pointedly don't want it, and FOR THAT REASON.
phf: well, they didn't print this simple fact in "young electronic" so i wouldn't know, i like the idea of msec bursts though
mircea_popescu: the idea of getting signal picked up/repeated by the old "item attached to someone else's car" is the golden ticket.
mircea_popescu: get a network of these thick enough in urban setting, an' farewell to arms.
mircea_popescu: eminently the sort of thing resisting civillian population can do with little risk to disrupt obama-gestapo.
phf: i'm weary of things that require Wasp lifestyle though, can be done, good to be able to do it, but it's not something you can bootstrap from normal state
phf: you get sloppy with opsec and that 3 people team that's been drawing paycheck on your assignment for the past 4 years is going to close in
Framedragger: btw supposedly there's a new iteration/model of esp8266, anyone has an opinion?
trinque: english though impoverished has "iteration" too
ben_vulpes: one could rack up quite a bill just splicing cell jammers into mobile power busses, eg cars
mircea_popescu: one could also rack up quite a bill paying the wife for blowjobs.
ben_vulpes: customers complain about random outages, att/verizon/$provider wastes a pile of money doing infrastructure testing and then calls in fcc vans for triangulation rolls
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:11 Framedragger: alright. i will grant you that the end system wouldn't be "oh so elegantly simple", because you would have to have a submission queue (maybe something that trinque had in mind). user submits key; gets permalink (immediately); meanwhile key gets sent to master (immediately), and master puts it into "to be inserted" queue. under normal loads, the insertion happens ~immediately,
mircea_popescu: the immediate (not even spoken, because they don't want to say it because they don't want it discussed because they want it to be forever true) retort from the empire'd be that "well, this doesn't work". except... it does work.
ben_vulpes: anyone ever see a trb/buildroot run hang at `checking for gcc float-conversion bug...` ?
ben_vulpes: it's not strictly speaking hung afaict; cursor blinks, newlines and other chars write to term
trinque: reminds me I gotta buy the HD screws for g5 cheese-grater
phf: dat variety speak overflow
shinohai wonders if he should write an article on how an airstrike in response for killing of children results in death of 4 children ....
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 16:49 trinque: insert into factors (val) values (3) where not exists (select 1 from factors where value = 3);
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: on contemplation, cars may not be a very good hiding place, they ( esp in usa ) routinely move through chokepoints - toll archs, and these are already equipped with camera and radio receivers << Depends on region and car
pete_dushenski: Framedragger: new command added to directory yesterday, just fyi :)
trinque: mircea_popescu:
https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/mvcc-intro.html << "Internally, data consistency is maintained by using a multiversion model (Multiversion Concurrency Control, MVCC). This means that each SQL statement sees a snapshot of data (a database version) as it was some time ago, regardless of the current state of the underlying data. This prevents statements from viewing inconsistent
BingoBoingo amazed by fake news wank over Assad dropped sarin vs. Assad bomed, sarin happened to be in bomb's way
trinque: data produced by concurrent transactions performing updates on the same data rows, providing transaction isolation for each database session. MVCC, by eschewing the locking methodologies of traditional database systems, minimizes lock contention in order to allow for reasonable performance in multiuser environments."
trinque: and "reading never blocks writing and writing never blocks reading"
BingoBoingo: Trump needed contrast to Obama/watches too much television, and needs a pretext to come into friendship with Putin honestly if MWGA is to happen
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 21:53 pete_dushenski: also !~tits added!
trinque: the thing forks the database upon each write and reads happen in the snapshot of state they began
mircea_popescu: trinque so an insert if not exists where a = b does NOT block a different select while it checks the where clause ?
trinque: absolutely not per my understanding of pg
trinque: if you and I are trying to update the same table your update may block until after mine
pete_dushenski: shinohai: cheers :) also (belatedly) wd on lordship nomination! very well deserved
mircea_popescu: suppose S = "insert if not exists where a = b" prototype. suppose S takes time T composed of ti for the insert and tw for the where clause. Suppose thjere's 5 concurrent S presented to db, S1..S5. are you saying that IN NO CASE will Sn wait for a Twi where i != n ?
mircea_popescu: ie, s5 is NOT waiting to do EITHER its insert or its where check because S3 is doing EITHER its insert or its where check ?
shinohai: ty pete_dushenski ... gonna buy me a celebratory mercedes? :)
pete_dushenski: haha well mine is for sale... could always gift. can you give me a tax receipt for your needy cause ?
shinohai: Hmmm .... the foundation for the preservation of slutty tits ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: reads block nobody, never block. I understand the where clause of an insert statement to be a condition on a read query that gets fed into a write, just as my "common table expressions" ('with' keyword) feed into each other.
BingoBoingo awaits pete_dushenski's eventual conversion to plasticar and panel replacement that requires only a good flat head screwdriver
trinque: equiv to select 1,2,3 ; and you can use that if you like
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: only 'domestic' i'd touch is f-150. new citroen 'h van' is my kinda plastic though. frp. tres retrocool aussi.
trinque: by the nato precedent set by turkey, I'd expect russia can down an american plane or two without risking a nuclear exchange, eh?
☟︎ pete_dushenski: trinque: russia could down 1/16 us aircraft carrieres without risking nukage.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: apparently snores are fuel for core lulz. like logs in fire.
ben_vulpes: i was hoping for a bait reimplementation
ben_vulpes: i'm not going to crack a web browser when the bot's right there
pete_dushenski: "Well I was a major miner for over two years and I lost out because other people had a lower CoC. I had to say goodbye to a business that I built from the ground up. I’m not calling fowl play and throwing my toys out of the pram. Its called business and its what enables people to invest in bitcoin." ~sam cole (tm). so fowl. so chicken. cluck cluck!
pete_dushenski: it can't really be any wonder that knc sunk. not after reading this.
ben_vulpes: honestly i'll be surprised if it compiles
pete_dushenski: eh, minibucks don't buy much. prolly 2x what you'd pay!
pete_dushenski: cheapest kg i'm seeing is cad$20+40 for shipping = cad$60
shinohai: Now you make me want to buy one of these ppc's pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: that's exactly my scheme to bid up the prices of g5s. bwahaha!