log
▁▁⏐︎▁▁ 9279
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582084 << i was just thining about the happy accident that is mimisbrunnr spewing noise into the google hole ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 15:26 mircea_popescu: inbcidentally asciilifeform as per that discussion of how much it costs to index etc, phuctor is a total google poison.
ben_vulpes: and how it needs moar cross referencing links obvs
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no duds so far.
mircea_popescu: nice
asciilifeform: http://goodmath.scientopia.org/2010/11/30/the-glorious-horror-of-teco << in other emacsisms.
asciilifeform: 'A language designed to live in the paper-tape world had to have some major constraints. First, paper tape is slow. Really slow. And punching tape is a miserable process. So you really wanted to keep things as short as possible. So the syntax of TECO is, to put it mildly, absolutely mind-boggling. Every character is a command. And I don't mean "every punctuation character", or "every letter". Every character is a command. Letters, nu
asciilifeform: mbers, punctuation, line feeds, control characters... Everything. But despite the utterly cryptic nature of it, it was good. It was very good. ...'
ben_vulpes: mmm, classic
asciilifeform: apparently i somehow built this again.
asciilifeform: i suppose idea is fairly obvious. ☟︎
asciilifeform: though, reading the manual ( http://www.copters.com/teco.html ) it was apparently quite complicated, so perhaps -- not.
asciilifeform: http://www.finseth.com/craft << the actual megaclassic of the subj. i have it in dead tree, and did not know it were on www in proper text...
asciilifeform: ^ worth keeping
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al ^
ben_vulpes: nifty
ben_vulpes: i swear that apple is varying the time at which it presents its "are you ready to upgrade now?" modal to me ☟︎
ben_vulpes: ('ooh it's 530 on a weekday and he's at the place where he last consented to upgrade xcode. maybe he's sauced enough to say yes this time!')
ben_vulpes: NO FUCKERS
ben_vulpes: https://github.com/tiimgreen/github-cheat-sheet#ignore-whitespace << because what i want is a diff program that doesn't show the whole diff
ben_vulpes: in other "shit rubros say"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: have you thought about firewalling off the crapple upgrade servers ?
asciilifeform: it works for microshit boxen
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582413 << they don't show it to me on 10.9, possibly because i'm now a heathen beyond redemption ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 01:35 ben_vulpes: i swear that apple is varying the time at which it presents its "are you ready to upgrade now?" modal to me
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582407 << i tried living in TECO at some point (they way i've done with a bunch of other text editors, like acme) and it was beyond even my patience. it's definitely an emacsism in a sense of "this part makes no sense, but that's how the elders did it, so stfu" ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 01:07 asciilifeform: i suppose idea is fairly obvious.
ben_vulpes: 10.9 heathen beyond redemption utterlol
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have not
ben_vulpes: will consider
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582380 <<< what did you dislike about vim? ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 22:37 asciilifeform: it is an abominable editor, except when compared to the others.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582427 << no SLIME ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 04:47 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1582380 <<< what did you dislike about vim?
asciilifeform: and no decade+ of my elisp (e.g., hungry-arrows, why the FUCK should it take me >1 keypress to move across whitespace), etc
asciilifeform: no autoindent, no paren matching, fuck, what ~does~ it have
asciilifeform: i also fucking ~loathe~ modal editors ☟︎
mircea_popescu saw this coming.
asciilifeform: i might like vi more if it weren't also associated in my head with the years i toiled as a sysadmin slave...
asciilifeform: if stuck on a box on mars with no civilized editors, i'd sooner use 'nano'
asciilifeform: (pico, etc)
davout: aha
asciilifeform: that being said, 'hell is other people's' elisp...
davout: if you're using more than a keystroke to move accross whitespace, or don't have auto-indent you're misusing it, but yeah, just curious. not trying to sell anything here
asciilifeform: autoindent is intensely language-specific
asciilifeform: incidentally iirc someone wrote somethign vaguely like slime for vi, someone with stronger stomach than i oughta try it, see...
davout: some come built-in i think, some others you have to inoculate
asciilifeform: davout: while you're awake i gotta ask, unrelatedly, re earlier thread! are decent joysticks for flight sims extinct? you're just the fella to know the answer
davout: i don't flightsim
davout: i tried a couple of times, which all ended in "wtf is this?!"
BingoBoingo: !~b2
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Error: "b2" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 774.44, vol: 4525.67234621 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 768.26, vol: 4443.87892 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 775.13, vol: 8920.65795881 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 786.921471, vol: 3406782.80100000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 775.57, vol: 1295.08062686 | Volume-weighted last average: 786.845782871
asciilifeform: this actually makes sense:
asciilifeform: i imagine that flight sim for davout would be like if mircea_popescu fucked a hole drilled in an old tree
davout: asciilifeform: why'd you want simming anyway? go to your local airport and get a couple hours, flying is cheap in the US ☟︎☟︎
ben_vulpes: "fly from bed!"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: clojure folks have a variant of this, "fireplace"
davout: missing "sleep ad lib." required dependency ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, i know where he's coming from. all the kids excited about counterstrike gave me about the same impression originaly
mircea_popescu: "o, it's realistic ? dude, really ?"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582433 << you know z80 editor was modal. caps shift an' symbol shift beotch!!1 ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 04:54 asciilifeform: i also fucking ~loathe~ modal editors
mircea_popescu: and speaking of routing, holy shit was the zx board a nightmare.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582453 << he makes an excellent point. sign up for a class, you get someone to be there with you who can actually fly the thing, and also get to fuck with the controls. best of both worlds, and it's very much in the $50 for 5 minutes range, just gotta commit to a few hours' worth. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 06:14 davout: asciilifeform: why'd you want simming anyway? go to your local airport and get a couple hours, flying is cheap in the US
mircea_popescu: but if you think one's worth every penny, you prolly think the other's worth every penny too.
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161211/#7
scriba: Something went wrong while attempting to read the log.
scriba: Exception: ['utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0x93 in position 8122: invalid start byte]
Framedragger: oh ffs. sec.
Framedragger: (also removing debug log)
mircea_popescu: !!key usman
deedbot: No such key.
Framedragger: test with new log reader http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161211/#7 test
scriba: Logged on 2016-12-11: [01:15:36] <mats> i was remorseful, things change
Framedragger: ^ ok, finally fixed. took forever. >.<
Framedragger: phf: thanks for pointing me in the right direction. scriba now reads log as byte sequence, tries decoding each line as utf-8, if that fails, then does latin-1. seems to be fine.
mircea_popescu: nice Framedragger
Framedragger: encoding, fml
mircea_popescu: heh
Framedragger: good education tho
mircea_popescu: !!key usman
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/VilKx/?raw=true
Framedragger: !#s postgrest
a111: 5 results for "postgrest", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=postgrest
Framedragger: ^ just discovered this. "remove the CRUD", serve APIs directly from postgres. includes user/role/cookie management etc. pretty neat. ☟︎
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-11#1197431 << :( ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-11 02:26 trinque: becoming a features katamari shitshow
mircea_popescu: sql-to-api thing is actually not half a bad idea. ☟︎
trinque: very useful thing.
mircea_popescu: mysql for isntance tries with their permissions model, but it's crud.
trinque: it just needs to be written by someone with a brain.
mircea_popescu: and afaik not one actually includes proper metering
trinque: emphatically not as "lets translate SQL to whatever a URL is allowed to do"
mircea_popescu: ie, can i allocate up to 0.1s /day per user ?
Framedragger: does postgrest still use 'basic auth'? :/
Framedragger: that kind of metering would be neat to have..
mircea_popescu: trinque incidentally, auth should be handled via rsa. user passes api two variables : one is a request encrypted to its key ; the other is the request + a server-provided salt hashed.
mircea_popescu: this allows server to allocate all requests to hashes, and that's the "username"
mircea_popescu: then just keep a master table of allowed hashes and their usage.
mircea_popescu: AND whether they may acquire locks ; and how often. etc.
mircea_popescu: (ie, who says all users can acquire locks ?)
Framedragger: as long as the 'check hash' operation is quick enough, otherwise DoS magnet (that's a very alf'y comment i guess)
mircea_popescu: i guess you ip-whitelist if it gets bad.
trinque: doubtful check hash is going to be a significant proportion of "run query" for a reasonably large query
mircea_popescu: and on this model, you can expose all the dbs directly. ☟︎
trinque: this whole thing actually describes something I have been working on for quite some time.
mircea_popescu: "you want access to X data store ? ask Y for a salt ; see api docs here"
trinque: not nearly done, nor fully conceptualized
mircea_popescu: no more of this should it be json or sexpr and pass via urls bs
trinque: but it is what the web *ought* to have been made atop
mircea_popescu: yes.
Framedragger: ah yeah, i recall you mentioning 'sql explorer' (for phuctor data iirc) trinque. ambitious but delicious project
mircea_popescu: #tmsr-parc
mircea_popescu: all ur ideaz r belong.
jurov: asciilifeform: slime for vim is named slimv, i have tried it and it had almost all the functionality of emacs one... when it worked :( needs more eyeballs.
trinque: Framedragger: problem is that SQL was designed by cancerous fags just like Python.
mircea_popescu: well by the time the libtards are done fucking emacs, it'll work better than it anyway.
jurov: since the vim plugin is written in python, one needs to be wizard in both py and lisp to fix it ☟︎
mircea_popescu: lol wait wait. c-implementation of lisp glued to vim via python ?
mircea_popescu: can i put in a feature request at this juncture ?
jurov: it's not implementation of lisp
jurov: just an debugger using slime protocol
mircea_popescu: ah
Framedragger: i'd actually like to see a coherent and all-in-one-place SQL / RDBMS-as-a-general-model critique some time. maybe it exists. usually it's mongodb hipsters complaining randomly, so i'd developed a (too-)generic "ignore 'em all" filter :p ☟︎
trinque: which brings me to my next point: no fucking seams in the internet db thing.
trinque: Framedragger: they are not equivalent
trinque: SQL was an "end user programming" idiocy, python idem
mircea_popescu: Framedragger afaik trinque is a great afficionado of the whole "db everything"
Framedragger: trinque: right right, so you're talking about SQL as a language, fair enough
mircea_popescu: jurov pity, because i'd have asked for "all strings are unicode strings". should have fixed it right and proper.
trinque: Framedragger: I'll give you a morsel to chew while I make coffee
trinque: why the fuck can't I name and reuse "joins" in SQL ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: iirc you can via temporary tables neh ?
trinque: you can create views, yes, but relationships aren't separate, defined things you can invoke at will
Framedragger: can materialized views use joins in the way you want to? i haven't looked into them for some time, so dunno.
trinque: you make the view customers_with_addresses_and_ratings
trinque: rather than "select customers with addresses, ratings"
mircea_popescu: well maybe not that far, but yes, materialized views
trinque: Framedragger: my criticism is that I specify what constitutes the relationship between customers and addresses each time I use the relationship.
trinque: and this is given as a general whiff of endless haphazardness in SQL
Framedragger: aha right, you sort of define it upon every use, which sucks balls and is an example of stupid inflexibility
trinque: makes traversing lots of relationships at once harder to fit in head
Framedragger: yeah, aliasing is an important mental-compression operation. i see what you mean
Framedragger: (there's lack of general flexibility, it's full of baked-in developer-choices so to speak, etc.)
trinque: the language was pulled in the direction of "user interface" by some, "programming language" by others, ended up neither.
trinque: see also: https://www.python.org/doc/essays/cp4e/
trinque: when you try to design for the novice, you must leave essential parts of the problem out, then hope to hide it, inevitably failing.
Framedragger: "there are always leaks." yeah, i mean, no objections i guess.
Framedragger: the "UI/programming-language" juxtaposition is quite apparent when writing pl/pgsql. i dunno, it's a weird feeling.
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't say you must. "when you design for the novice in the sense of trying to lie to them about their inferiority, you are stuck with that lie and it gets ever more expensive to maintain" ☟︎
trinque: better put, yeah.
mircea_popescu: kinda how the entire modern insanity came about. "oh, people are more productive when they THINK they're good, irrespective of how good they are" "yeah, but telling people who aren't good that they're good convincingly has a cost" "well, what if we try and arbitrage the delta-productivity from the first against the marginal-cost from 2nd ?!" "dude what" "no really, if we made all the tools really shitty ? and mass production
mircea_popescu: ? and the corporation ? and government regulation ? and ?" "dude go fuck your mother."
mircea_popescu: possibly the most amply researched stupid idea in the history of human science ; "is there life other than on earth" didn't receive 1% of 1% of the attention.
trinque: if they're only measuring shit by volume, they're going to say great success.
trinque: seems a guy like guido has a particularly bad case of delusional narcissism, too.
trinque: "I can create this smart-guy talisman and bless The People with my disembodied smart."
trinque: idiot I worked for in Portland was always talking about "untapped creativity" in re: end user programming
mircea_popescu: sigh.
mircea_popescu: idiots keep giving new names to "the god who'll give me manna"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582453 << i can see this pov, 'instead of playing race game for a few hrs, i'ma buy harley and go to the desert and train for 10 years' ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 06:14 davout: asciilifeform: why'd you want simming anyway? go to your local airport and get a couple hours, flying is cheap in the US
Framedragger: asciilifeform: except you're not paying for the full retail price of a harley, and you don't need to train for 10 years? :)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582456 << i sleep ad lib nao, thus far using it to make s.nsa output solidity rather than getting flattened in esoteric vehicles, but who knows, might go and do the latter also at some point ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 07:09 davout: missing "sleep ad lib." required dependency
asciilifeform: Framedragger: if you want to do acrobatics, you'd better study for years
asciilifeform: *solidify
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582462 << the other puzzler, where do i take space battle class !111111 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 11:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582453 << he makes an excellent point. sign up for a class, you get someone to be there with you who can actually fly the thing, and also get to fuck with the controls. best of both worlds, and it's very much in the $50 for 5 minutes range, just gotta commit to a few hours' worth.
Framedragger: i don't know how it is in the .us and it's prolly *quite* a bit more complicated than that, also i had the lucky chance of having a relative who'd invite to fly with him and show me basic flight control stuff, but are you not able to get lessons as a total noob?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you can, it's 10-20k usd or so. ☟︎
asciilifeform: around here.
asciilifeform: and generally done by folks who aim to buy the machine and have actual places to go in it etc
Framedragger: aite, that's a chunk of money for sure, i'd've thought it to have been lower than that :(
asciilifeform: though possibly what mircea_popescu was describing for fiddybux was a tourism sort of thing, different.
asciilifeform: but no, you don't even get to touch airplane for fiddybux in usa. insurance for your so much as farting on it, is a hundy.
Framedragger: well, iac it's a shame no decent game controllers are available, true that :/
asciilifeform: and that's per fart.
mircea_popescu: nah it's safe, you get a trainer with you there.
mircea_popescu: it's pretty much like fucking - dun much matter if YOU're a virgin.
asciilifeform: well yes, naturally you get trainer. he charges 200/hr
asciilifeform: (for cheap one)
mircea_popescu: sometghing like that.
asciilifeform: it isn't that this is useless thing to study! but there is distinct flavour of 'why play 'doom', instead go to the recruiter post and go to afghan, die of scurvy and boredom'
asciilifeform: fwiw i had a colleague who was in iraq and pointedly played 'call of duty: iraq' while there.
mircea_popescu: at the time it was, go to serbia shoot muslims and have grateful sex with the rescued hussies.
asciilifeform: that one ^ beats 'doom', i can see.
mircea_popescu: very much better than anything on tap these days.
asciilifeform: better, i picture, than anything on tap any time since caesar.
asciilifeform: but not exactly a weekend project.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582517 << holy FUCK and i'm supposed to take it seriously !? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:31 jurov: since the vim plugin is written in python, one needs to be wizard in both py and lisp to fix it
asciilifeform: what next, plugins that require perl scripts to run when i press tab ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582459 << that's not what 'modal' means ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 10:54 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582433 << you know z80 editor was modal. caps shift an' symbol shift beotch!!1
asciilifeform: modal means you can get stuck in some mode where text isn't going on the screen
mircea_popescu: technically it's what modal means yes
asciilifeform: term of art in editordom
asciilifeform: refers specifically to the idiocy of vi
asciilifeform: ... it made some kind of sense with 300 baud modem, yes. but i dun have one.
mircea_popescu: yes, but it means "you can press keys and nothing is printed". which matches.
asciilifeform: 1 key, 1 press
asciilifeform: not same.
mircea_popescu: huh ?
asciilifeform: well i have here a keyboard with two whole extra rows of prog f keys that dun display to screen
asciilifeform: they ain't a 'mode'
mircea_popescu: nono. on old sinclair, first you get the "cursor" into the right mode, THEN you type.
mircea_popescu: what did it have C, K, E
mircea_popescu: L iirc
asciilifeform: ah this - yes, vi-like
mircea_popescu: well so then what are you talking about! modal.
asciilifeform: btw another idiocy, arrow keys! they exist ! i WILL use them
asciilifeform: idiocy of c,k,e that is
mircea_popescu: so map them.
asciilifeform: it is mindblowing that vi, that abortion, still is in use. i can only grasp this in light of the alternative being emacs, equally horrid in exactly opposite ways.
jurov: incidentally, arrow keys do work regardless of mode. or i dunno what vim-from-hell alf ran into?
mircea_popescu: "de" = ctrl+shift+left then delete. cmon.
asciilifeform: jurov: i'm thinking of classic vi
mircea_popescu: classic vi is from like 1976!
asciilifeform: well yes.
jurov: next time all will get into white-hot rage about ed? let's go buy popcorn
mircea_popescu: so a) use vim ; b) there's a humongo economy of strokes, at the cost of muscle memory, if youy care. if you don't car,e go ahead.
asciilifeform: whereas modern vi, if you were to roll in all of the pieces i actually use in daily life (e.g., correct autoindent AND colourization for 50+ languages) it will probably weigh what emacs weighs
mircea_popescu: yes yes, editor wars exist because previous investment, i know i know.
asciilifeform: hey if it had theoretical economy, i'd consider it (periodically i go and actually consider, and find that i have to press literally 500x more button)
mircea_popescu: depends what you use it for. if you msotly use an editor to create de novo text, not good fit. if you mostly use editor to adnotate other people's text, very good fit. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ^ yes
asciilifeform: fwiw a sysadmin uses ~100% vi...
mircea_popescu: insert "you are an idiot!" 500x times in five pages ? vim!
asciilifeform: absolutely.
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu mostly uses nano these days, so whatevs!
Framedragger: asciilifeform: quick unrelated q: in phuctor, do the phuctored debianized keys appear in /phuctored ? from what i recall and understand, all of them are there. and one wouldn't have to look at /sadmods or /dupes - correct?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: absolutely all
Framedragger: aha okay, good to know, thx.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582504 << this sounds like a terrible idea. directly expose what amounts to 100s of MB of crapolade code by heathens, rather than 1pg by actual person ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:27 mircea_popescu: and on this model, you can expose all the dbs directly.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582523 << consider this, if there were a non-idiotic db system, it would be your filesystem also! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:32 Framedragger: i'd actually like to see a coherent and all-in-one-place SQL / RDBMS-as-a-general-model critique some time. maybe it exists. usually it's mongodb hipsters complaining randomly, so i'd developed a (too-)generic "ignore 'em all" filter :p
asciilifeform: and would be reasonable candidate for replacing www also.
trinque: yes, I mentioned all that.
asciilifeform slowly eating the log
trinque: sad that SQL the horror squatted such useful space.
asciilifeform: it's roughly same type of fecal mass as emacs
mircea_popescu: the point holds though - correct db should also be fs
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582531 << because it's an abortion full of nonorthogonality ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:35 trinque: why the fuck can't I name and reuse "joins" in SQL ?
asciilifeform: sql, emacs, vi, similar animals, survive indefinitely not the least because they are relics - for all their flaws - from the age of men; and have ~ 0% monkeycode
trinque: terribly so
trinque: speaking of relics, I just dug up WORDS ☟︎
trinque: William Whitaker's
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582549 << naggum had piece on literally this ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:49 mircea_popescu: i wouldn't say you must. "when you design for the novice in the sense of trying to lie to them about their inferiority, you are stuck with that lie and it gets ever more expensive to maintain"
mircea_popescu: link ?
asciilifeform contemplates a 'naggumbot'
mircea_popescu: srsly.
asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3087632126807915@naggum.no.html << and elsewhere
asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3128224612301670@naggum.no.html
asciilifeform: and http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3241654125513898@naggum.no.html .
asciilifeform wonders how much of 'naggumism' actually exists in the written word, and how much -- as a synthesis in his head
mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: "had an article about exactly this! here's 3 kinda related!"
asciilifeform: it remains possible that it was there -- and i lost it.
mircea_popescu: certainly.
trinque: something very v-tronic in there, separation between man and "the source code"
trinque: Naggum the god vs naggum the man
asciilifeform: 'bbbbut in what volume of lenin was this!111'
mircea_popescu: big part of problem was that he was writing his stuff as email answers to idiots
asciilifeform: usenet. but yes.
asciilifeform: he left behind very few ab-initio works ('long and painful history of time' is afaik more or less it)
asciilifeform: most of the d00d's life happened offline, in commercial world, is my understanding.
mircea_popescu: something apologizing for sgml also
mircea_popescu: i suspect most of dood's life happened inside his skull. because that's the proboem with "make it easy for beginnertards" : it NECESSARILY also makes it hard for naggums.
asciilifeform: iirc he had law degree in his country.
asciilifeform: he also vagabonded around usa as a young man, was involved in aynrandism, then was cured, and left.
Framedragger: [that reminds me, i bought a postcard of ayn rand and am yet to send this to a friend who is in full hate mode of her stuff. need to get this done for the festive season...]
Framedragger: s/this//
asciilifeform: iirc he realized what was happening to his profession and began to work to leave it, the hard way, by learning an actual 'liberal profession' etc. but ended up leaving it 'the easy way'
asciilifeform: by dying of untreated ulcer.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: what other obscure american crackpots does your friend hate
Framedragger: hehe, don't know particulars, but it should be noted that he studied philosophy and in some of the circles he had to have business with, ayn rand sorta-has a place as a non-crackpot. hence the (arbitrary, otherwise) particular object of hate
Framedragger: (undergrad student circles, etc.; luckily those fall out of relevancy/radar as one ages)
asciilifeform: there are probably somewhere circles where mark karpeles 'has business in as noncrackpot'
asciilifeform: if you look hard enough.
mircea_popescu: " on the Net, people argue about whether year 2000 is a leap year or not, so it's not as if you can rely on the answers you get."
jurov: if only randists. there are plenty of kokeshists.
mircea_popescu: and what prythee is a kokeshist!
asciilifeform: 'Kokesh has called for a "new American revolution" and has announced plans to run for President in 2020 on the platform of an "orderly dissolution of the federal government."' << pediwik
asciilifeform: him??
mircea_popescu: o.O
jurov: yes, him: https://www.amazon.com/FREEDOM-Adam-Kokesh-ebook/dp/B00KR9V03K?ie=UTF8
asciilifeform: apparently d00d has a dope problem..?
mircea_popescu: see alf, all these people proposing an end to usg are such lunatics and dope fiends.
asciilifeform: why not do same thing but sober. so hard?
jurov falls down
asciilifeform: supposing he even took dope at all
asciilifeform: and not simply helpfully 'given' by helpful-people prior to arrest.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582484 <<< this looks pretty awesome actually ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:20 Framedragger: ^ just discovered this. "remove the CRUD", serve APIs directly from postgres. includes user/role/cookie management etc. pretty neat.
mircea_popescu: "to advance it is at serious odds with the massive glorification of youth. As marketing found itself unable to expand without encroaching upon our childhood, the intense drive to capture the minds of the youngest among us has tended to make people believe that 30 years of experience can be replaced by the young looks of rank novices. This is made worse by the management schools that make it possible for people who have yet ☟︎
mircea_popescu: to grow enough facial hair to need to shave daily not only to show off their insufficient beard growth as "hip" but to fill "leadership" positions where they feel threatened by anyone significantly older than themselves and where the inability to /lead/ is replaced by their simple skills at /managing/.
mircea_popescu: I believe it takes all kinds to make a working world, but what I find among the modern novices is that they do not feel the same way about the experts -- they want an expert-free world where their ignorance is not painful, where their inexperience is not used against them, where they get all the jokes, where nobody uses literary references that elude them, where every one of their ideas is accepted by their peers as just as n
mircea_popescu: ovel as they think it is, where they can make mistakes without being corrected by people who do know better, where they can reap all the benefits early in life instead of having to work for 40 years first."
mircea_popescu: ^ that part gotta be in the logs. ☟︎
Framedragger did a bit of privileged-teen-mode some years ago. "paying for life expenses with money earned from doing work" helpz
asciilifeform: http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2016/12/lockheed-martin-stock-trump-tweet-wipes-2-billion-dollars/ << in other lulz
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582487 << to expand on this : such a model would actually do away with the browser altogether ; just discuss with servers in something like an extended irc client. (yes yes i know, emacs.) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 12:22 mircea_popescu: sql-to-api thing is actually not half a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: for what it's worth, could be a lengthy pile of perl just as well.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform were you asking for him to hit the lizzards where it hurts ?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-28#1510793 << not quite this, but a start. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-28 15:33 mircea_popescu: if trump had any sense, lockheed, northrop & friends are FULLY defunded the same day, and are allowed the mercy to perhaps beg for SOME SMALL PORTION of re-funding, maybe, someday.
mircea_popescu: hey, no buttons yet.
asciilifeform: i suspect they can more easily cancel him, than him -- them
trinque: sure, he's ahead of schedule really
mircea_popescu: yes, but so far babione is not "cancelling" anyone.
mircea_popescu: as it stands right now, lm can not confront its obligaitons to creditors (aka, bankruptcy) if it loses as little as 20% of us expenses.
mircea_popescu: this being the destructive idiocy of eating bad money - you're left without a company.
asciilifeform: lockheed, grumman, general dynamics, et al, were creatures of usg from day1
asciilifeform: (boeing is the one exception i know of, it had a genuine history earlier, even a brief airline monopoly -- but then absorbed also)
thestringpuller: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582703 >> p. sure this is related http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/ ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 15:53 mircea_popescu: ^ that part gotta be in the logs.
mircea_popescu: so it is.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582570 << you also have "intro classes" that'll run you $150 or so with a reputable firm for half hour. i'm sure those same instructors would bring up the plane more than once under similar circmustances: you get to sit in the cockpit and "hold the joystick" at cruising ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 14:21 asciilifeform: Framedragger: you can, it's 10-20k usd or so.
asciilifeform: phf: i can watch dashcams on youtube for 0 $
phf: dc is kind of shitty that they (very few flight schools closebuy, with a lot of wealthy people learning to fly), but there was airport near philly where you could flag any of their instructors and they'd love to fly you around however long you want whether or not you commit to you "recreational" license ☟︎
asciilifeform: actually i live literally across the street from amateur airport.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/postcards-from-nutland/ << Trilema - Postcards from Nutland
phf: ha, then i know where you are
asciilifeform: i've lived in roughly same town for decade +
asciilifeform: anyway original thread was about games. and yes, why play racing game, go instead to truck driving school.
asciilifeform: (not that there is anything wrong with studying how to drive big rig)
phf: but anyway, it's fun. not quite the same as a sim, i've no idea what these people are on about, but worth it if you have the cash. in fact if you can stretch 10k over a year, getting a license is not a bad idea
asciilifeform: i can do the study, hell, buy the machine, but i've nowhere to go in it. at some point might do it anyway when i get sufficiently bored and tired of living.
phf: "get to fly every weekend!1"
asciilifeform: traveling in straight line for hours!111 what marvelous fun
asciilifeform: if a 50k rusty 'cessna' could go across ocean, that'd be one thing.
asciilifeform: but it typically costs ~same to go to 1000km in it, as in a passenger liner.
phf: sort of my thinking about flight sims. only reason i have xplane is for practice
asciilifeform: if you were to go ~every week~ (why???) then yes, save a few pennies. but then your life expectancy is a few years.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu once pointed out.
asciilifeform: phf: you have the joystick, pedals, etc. also ?
asciilifeform: (some folks spend almost what real machine costs, on practice pit, i found out)
davout: if you just want to hold the stick at cruise, and do some turning and going up and down, you can just go with any private pilot
davout: no need to find yourself an instructor
asciilifeform: at uni i roomed with an old friend, who dreamed of flying, ended up practicing with xplane, studying like maniac, paid his 20k, got the license, then bought, instead of airplane... a ship. which is afaik rusting in port still.
trinque: there's also the difference in experience: walk into hangar, leave. some factor the anal examination into the cost of going by airline.
davout: they won't even be legally allowed to charge you more than splitting the airplane rental costs
phf: davout: it's easier to find an instructor, than it is to "find any private pilot". plus you know asciilifeform objection "i don't know any private pilots" ☟︎
asciilifeform: actually i used to know one !
asciilifeform: but he died
asciilifeform: (of old age, not in machine)
asciilifeform: and, theoretically, the d00d mentioned earlier -- also. but he had no plane. and last i knew had taken 'vow of poverty', became academic.
davout: i'm sure you could easily find someone anywhere in the US by hopping onto #pilots or /r/flying
phf: asciilifeform: i don't have any peripherals. i use it for their instrument challenges, and they also have a mode where they randomly fail something in the plane and you need to figure out what do. that sort of stuff
asciilifeform: lol!!
asciilifeform: is there also an 'old car' simulator ?
asciilifeform: where various parts fail...
davout: asciilifeform: there's a big difference between "simming" and "playing"
asciilifeform: davout: yes, but not only in the direction you mentioned, but in the other.
davout: simming == what does this button do? does this work if i do the approach this way? what's that instrument?
davout: playing == yeeeeha
asciilifeform: right
asciilifeform: realistic sim is to study for exam (and, once you passed exam, to increase your life expectancy at the wheel)
asciilifeform: this is why i was bewildered at the answers to this thread, i specifically mentioned 'contemplated playing games again after decade+', 'unwind'
davout: aha
asciilifeform: rather than 'where do i learn to pass exam for driving serious machine'
phf: ah
asciilifeform: to this last question, i know the answer very well, it is not a mystery
phf: i have same reaction to sims as mircea_popescu to counter strike, so when you say sim i think xplane, or precusors like mfs (that i hear some still swear by !!1)
asciilifeform: it is like if someone asked about mining in eulora, and you lot instead answered where he can find actual coal mine to work in
davout: hey! i still use ms word as a vim simulator!!!11 ☟︎
asciilifeform: davout imho is correct! vim needs a sim! to train on, so as not to die in the real deal.
asciilifeform: last time i used vim, i landed on a wing and burned to a cinder.
davout: maybe you should stop trying to vim with joysticks
asciilifeform: lel
davout: but seriously, you're a lucky bastard if you live accross the street from an airport
davout: there is like one cessna on this fucking island, and it's used by skydivers
asciilifeform: i for some reason thought that davout had own machine
davout: flying is financial insanity, having one's own machine is double the financial insanity
asciilifeform: and having own auto is not insanity ?
davout: probably not as bad
davout: aeronautic maintenance is horribly expensive, parts are horribly expensive
davout: 100LL gas is double the price of regular gas, and machine swallows four times more
davout: and that's for the two seater cessna 150
davout: i guess having one's own machine can make sense in some cases, mine's not one of them
asciilifeform: four times more per what ? per km ?? ☟︎
davout: if you find a flight school that's also renting it from you or something like that
davout: per hour
davout: cessna 15 drinks roughly 22L/h
asciilifeform: yeah but who the hell counts ~hours~ when using transport ??
asciilifeform: you count per km
davout: s/15/150/
asciilifeform: horse -- eats even less than auto, say.
davout: reasonable car does what? 100km in an hour, drinks roughly 6~7L ☟︎
davout: and remember that cessna runs on 100LL, which in my understanding is regular petrol, just dried up further to prevent carb icing
davout: is also 2x more expensive
davout: i'm quite curious about the rental rates where you live
davout: around paris, a 150 with gas, and instructor will cost you 140€/hr
davout: i'm kinda considering getting myself a professionnal licence, to fly the big guys
davout: speaking of financial insanity...
asciilifeform: davout: afaik that's about as much fun as being a bus driver... but iirc it pays well.
asciilifeform: (no sleeping ad libitum, however, then. your liner might have to fly at 3 in the morning, or whenever.)
davout: my impression is actually the opposite
asciilifeform: hm?
davout: fun, but low pay (unless 30 years experience and a380 captain for air france/ba/lufthansa) ☟︎
deedbot: http://thewhet.net/2016/argentina-comicon-bonbon/ << The Whet - Argentina Comicon Bonbon. ☟︎
asciilifeform: davout: understandably this is a matter of taste; but out of curiosity, where is the fun ? computer -- does ~all of the actual piloting
asciilifeform: and even if it did not, nobody's doing acrobatics in a 400 tonne barge full of schmucks
davout: i don't think it's the "piloting" part that's attractive to me, but more the "let's go see the sun" when all the other derps are stuck under a shitty stratus shittus overcast layer
asciilifeform: could just move to mircea_popesculandia. plenty of sun.
davout: also the "maybe it's a really boring job, maybe it's really cool" question that could conclusively be answered with "let's fucking try"
asciilifeform: this - true.
davout: also i already moved to sunville!
asciilifeform: it's an honest trade. my criticism was strictly re the 'oooh yeee haw' part.
davout: ah yeah, i don't think there's much of that to be had
asciilifeform: the 'bus', from what i can tell, mostly drives itself.
davout: i've borrowed a bunch of theory books too, and tbh the learning process itself seems pretty cool too
davout: i had no idea such a thing as a gyrolaser existed
asciilifeform: the theory, i found appealing since childhood, yes
davout: i now understand why it makes sense to have speed shown in knots AND mach number fraction
davout: etc.
asciilifeform: davout: is 'gyrolaser' where you live same thing as what english call 'ring gyro' ?
davout: probably
davout: does it have lasers? :D
davout: no moving parts? measures a momentum? same thing!
asciilifeform: we had a neato inertial navigation thread, but i can't seem to find igt.
asciilifeform: *it
thestringpuller: How do pilot lessons cost 10k?!? Perhaps having cohorts in the boondocks has its advantages such as farmers with planes...
davout: yeah! that stuff's pretty fascinating
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it's generally the machine rental time that is 90% of the cost iirc.
davout: thestringpuller: amount really depends on personal ability
thestringpuller: Give a farmer some good booze he'll take you up in the cropduster.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if you have one already and can convince instructor to go up in it -- might be cheaper.
davout: you can become a private pilot for 5k$ if you're good and do homework between each lessaon
davout: lesson
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i dun think the crop duster farmer can Officially certify you etc.
thestringpuller: the more traditional method when I was in school, was join Aviation club. Sit at desk give out free pizza, get free coupon for "lessons".
davout: "certified as long as you don't get caught"
asciilifeform: in usa this is even officially permitted, you can buy certain types of machine and fly unlicensed so long as you do it over the ocean where nobody has to clean up your smashed carcass
davout: asciilifeform: you sure? it's kinda doubtful you don't at the ver least have to understand airspace class in general, and not get in the way of people trying to go somewhere in particular
asciilifeform: iirc it was called 'ultralight'
asciilifeform: and yes, requires that you stay out of everybody's way and die quietly and politely
davout: i have nfi about the US, but in france there's a specific ultralight license ☟︎
davout: that for some unknown reason you don't automatically get along with your private pilot license
asciilifeform: IANAL, so i've nfi.
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit orig. thread, the thing i found appealing about 'air shooters' as a boy, was not the abstract 'grease wank' of 'oooh, engines, and gears' but the quick-with-your-eyes-hands-feet-shootout aspect of the game, which is not something that exists today in meatspace even in actual air combat (where you program the rocket, fire, and go home)
asciilifeform: so it only exists in imagination, in games, just like you cannot go and play 'meat tetris' very well by digging a real hole and throwing stones into it
asciilifeform: and, while mircea_popescu played 'meat doom', it is not a pleasure available 'on tap' to everybody.
asciilifeform: or (at the risk of sounding like complete idiot, because i did not play it) alchemy in eulora, it works there, but meatspace 'alchemy' is considerably more expensive, painful, and rewards -- few and far between, and most practitioners live and die without accomplishing ~anything... ☟︎
davout: asciilifeform: get yourself F/A-18 hornet
davout: old but gold
asciilifeform: a bit out of my price range...
davout: http://www.old-games.com/screenshot/4238-2-f-a-18-hornet-3.jpg
asciilifeform: aaah the sim
davout: not *a* f/a-18 hornet duh
asciilifeform: looks nifty, very '90s
davout: i had lots of fun playing it
davout: played the demo for hours and hours
asciilifeform: i had much earlier 'aces of pacific'
davout: no internet == no full game
asciilifeform: and before that, 'f19'
asciilifeform: i think mircea_popescu also had 'f19'
davout: i distinctly remember getting on the train to paris as a kid to go buy the full game
davout: THEY DID NOT HAVE IT IN THE SHOP
davout: so i mastered the demo. demo didn't have the wire extended for carrier-landing? after countless attempts i managed to fucking land on the carrier anyway
asciilifeform: neato
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582772 << i use ms excel as msfs simulator! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 17:22 davout: hey! i still use ms word as a vim simulator!!!11
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582844 << 'experimental' i don't think needs license. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 18:32 davout: i have nfi about the US, but in france there's a specific ultralight license
davout: ben_vulpes: needs balls of steel
davout: exclusive republican army footage -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZvF3M7vhSs
davout: "let's shoot some fiatliners"
asciilifeform: my reaction is still 'very neato graphics', i am far behind the times
asciilifeform: 'woah, svga!'
davout: i also have old guy reactions to new video games
davout: "too much graphics! headache!"
asciilifeform: interestingly i never got the headache.
asciilifeform: or motion sicknesses, etc.
davout: "what's this world of warcraft thing?? how do i get in insert mode"
asciilifeform: (only ever got motion sickness in meatspace, on trains, and even there, not always)
davout: how does one get motion sickness on trains? it's like the dullest thing ever
asciilifeform: by reading
davout: are you doing backflips while reading ?
asciilifeform: the underground train in washington lurches, bumps, it is a very sad thing
asciilifeform: they used to work well, then there was some wreck (from poorly maintained equipment) and human drivers were introduced.
asciilifeform: union labour.
davout: i now have this mental image of you reading on a rollercoaster
asciilifeform: now the train drives like a bus.
asciilifeform: stop, go, stop, go...
asciilifeform: at one time, when i actually had to ride this train every day, i found a barbaric voodoo cure that worked 100%
asciilifeform: a wristwatch-shaped thing that put current through left wrist
asciilifeform: somehow the pain switched off the motion-sickness circuit.
asciilifeform: thing even came with conductive grease, quite like what one finds in descriptions of electric chair, when head is shaved and lathered so as to conduct well
davout: acupuncture principles mebbe?
asciilifeform: i have monumentally nfi how. but -- worked.
asciilifeform: probably on the principle of 'arm writhes in agony, can't think about also vomiting'
davout: aha, as in 'really painful', probably not same thing then, body more concerned with "aaaah, injured" than "blergh, poisoned"
asciilifeform: it wasn't even acutely painful, just same sensation as if you had sat on your hand for a while
asciilifeform: but quite unplesant.
asciilifeform: *unpleasant
asciilifeform: connect, some time, 2 9v batteries in series across your wrist, it will be similar.
Framedragger: gotta admire your industrious approach asciilifeform...
davout: while we're on the electricity topic: can i test the fact that my wall socket ground pin is correctly grounded by measuring the tension between said ground pin, and one of the plug holes?
Framedragger: reminds me of some guy who put a wire under his hand's skin, and made compass needle modulate the current (or somesuch). claims that after 2-3 weeks he had gained a genuinely new sense (of absolute direction)...
Framedragger: (no sources for this..)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: this is in the logs
Framedragger: oh. ...of course
asciilifeform: but it wasn't a wire, it was a small neodymium magnet
Framedragger: ah.
asciilifeform: no electronics involved
asciilifeform: just magnet.
davout can never remember learning about cryptomnesia
asciilifeform: davout: you can tell whether the ground is ~connected~, but that's more or less it
davout: what could it be connected to that's not the earth?
asciilifeform: the resistance between ground and 'cold' pin should be immeasurably small, in a properly built socket
asciilifeform: davout: it could (and in orc dwellings, often is) connected to nothing at all.
davout: but if it's not connected to anything, how can i observe a tension between it and a socket hole?
asciilifeform: you cannot; can only try to measure resistance between it and the cold prong
davout: between the ground pin and the actual soil ?
asciilifeform: no, b/w it and cold prong (i.e. the one without 220v on it)
davout: isn't "cold prong" the "ground pin" ?
asciilifeform: they are normally tied together, on an iron stake outside the house, yes
asciilifeform: but outside of africa mains socket has ~3~ prongs
asciilifeform: which is what i thought davout was asking about.
asciilifeform: btw a decent ups has this test built-in, and will eggog if it finds that 3rd pin (ground) does not conduct to cold prong (or, worse, has + voltage on it..)
davout: ok, maybe i just suck at engrish, "prong" is either a hole, or a pin poking out of the socket, the poking out one, being connected to the "ground pin", said ground pin being in the soil?
asciilifeform: pin
asciilifeform: and yes
davout: ok, so i try to measure resistance between the soil and ground prong, and should find small value
davout: (and try not to kill myself in the process)
asciilifeform: first measure b/w cold ('neutral') and ground
asciilifeform: but better still to simply plug in the pocket-sized tool that does this, it costs maybe 1 $ where i live.
asciilifeform: and has handy eggog lamps.
davout: aha
davout: where i live you don't just "buy stuff"
davout: where i live "it's complicated"
asciilifeform: aaah yes
davout: where i live "cold storage" means you won't die eating the chicken
Framedragger just discovered how phuctor's 404 page looks like: http://nosuchlabs.com/asdf - appreciates ☟︎
asciilifeform: l0l
jurov: davout: you can test the ground pin voltage against water pipes. there never should be any
jurov: and that's also its purpose
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582726 << beedog life is predicated on not being able to do things though! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 16:59 phf: dc is kind of shitty that they (very few flight schools closebuy, with a lot of wealthy people learning to fly), but there was airport near philly where you could flag any of their instructors and they'd love to fly you around however long you want whether or not you commit to you "recreational" license
ben_vulpes: http://www.cs.yale.edu/publications/techreports/tr1049.pdf << cute
ben_vulpes: figure 4: subjective evaluations by review panel is particularly amusing
ben_vulpes: in specific grading a lisp 'c' for 'prototyping support' (review panel completely ignorant of repls i suppose) and 'c' for 'high level structuring' (macros don't exist i guess?)
ben_vulpes: what/ever/
mircea_popescu: lol!
ben_vulpes: and lisp weenies get a reputation for smugness
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582749 << this is like saying "it's a lot easier to find call girl than incredibly hot girl bored out of her wits at every single party because every single dude is trained by figure 4 above to aim low and won't even talk to her." ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 17:16 phf: davout: it's easier to find an instructor, than it is to "find any private pilot". plus you know asciilifeform objection "i don't know any private pilots"
ben_vulpes: kinda interesting how haskell has yet to eke out a foothold around here.
ben_vulpes off to inject an urban food log down his throat
ben_vulpes: put it in mah face hole
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you don't get it : the "Reputation" bs is institutionalized oppression. in any system where group x has "reputation for y-bad" you know for a fact that a) group z is in charge ; b) group z is y-bad and c) group x is not.
mircea_popescu: STRICTLY that ; nothing else.
jurov: ben_vulpes: haskell is too young
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes jurov haskell is domain specific for domains we're not as of yet interested in ?
jurov: no it's actually quite suitable for bitcoin implementation, i have written performant simulation in it (but had to instrument it not to gobble memory for lazy computation)
jurov: just not stable yet
jurov: 10y old haskell code not worky
mircea_popescu: ah then that's the answer : jurov's not published yet.
mircea_popescu: apparently the "around here" is wider than previously thought.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: fwiw i programmed in it
asciilifeform: it has the prolog disease.
asciilifeform: (and, unlike prolog, is quite massive per se, and not easy at all to implement, and there is ONE usable implementation...)
mircea_popescu: in other irrelevant home flavour, girl making zacusca (the proper ro thing, baked peppers, etc) "what do i do with the juice ?" "freeze it" "hmm... need to get bags we're out" "use an ice cube tray". now ima have veggie broth cubed, for soups!
asciilifeform: 'lazy computation' is -- like it or not -- a horrendous idea.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't suspect he's using THAT part.
asciilifeform: (it is VERY attractive to academitards because it creates the kind of problems which they can later convert into papers)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can't actually program in haskell 'without using that part', not really
mircea_popescu: there's possibly a language under academia-haskell screaming to get out ; strong types and etc
mircea_popescu: it's unclear if that language reduces then to ada, but i suspect not.
asciilifeform: no, it reduces to ml
asciilifeform: specifically.
asciilifeform: i considered ml as a very, very close contender for 'an ada'
mircea_popescu: this is possible yes.
mircea_popescu: "typed lisp" w/e
asciilifeform: but i very much dislike the 'no native compiler exists or can likely ever exist' part; and the 'there are 2 implementations ever made, and only 1 is quasi-usable' part.
asciilifeform: ada suffers from the latter problem also
asciilifeform: (but not the former)
mircea_popescu: jurov did you consider and discard ml for your application incidentally ?
jurov: never touched ml
mircea_popescu: ah.
asciilifeform: hardly anyone ever touches it today. no longer taught, afaik.
asciilifeform: it was 'replaced' with haskell in academiland, and with ocaml in heavy industry
asciilifeform: (the latter has ONE IMPLEMENTATION, by some fr d00dz)
mircea_popescu: ocaml that ml which is ml in the sense javasCript is c.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582941 << i still think koi8-r was a great hack. i think cleverness of that kind is no longer popular because idiots ruined cleverness for everyone ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 19:54 Framedragger just discovered how phuctor's 404 page looks like: http://nosuchlabs.com/asdf - appreciates
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on the contrary, it has a native compiler for x86. but i categorically am put off by the 'one implementation' thing.
mircea_popescu: phf as per naggumg quote ; quite exactly my mind too : there not existing cleverness is more valuable to the empire-of-idiots than any gains from clevernesses they realise.
asciilifeform: phf: i still have multi-GB stash of koi8
mircea_popescu: which is true, too. republic grows by cleverness ; empire shrinks by it.
asciilifeform: fwiw i am still open to suggestions re 'the better ada'
asciilifeform: because ada per se is very, very hairy hair shirt.
asciilifeform: but afaik is not escapable, no.
mircea_popescu: that open-ness is imaginary at best ; minigame will use ada rsa for example.
asciilifeform: theoretically open.
asciilifeform: i don't expect an answer.
mircea_popescu: there was a window, but i think it closed recently.
asciilifeform: am quite certain , in fact, that there isn't one
asciilifeform: as someone who ~likes~ 'functional' languages, etc., i still must point out that it is a highly questionable business to use a language where there is not a simple, kindergarten correspondence b/w each line of the program and what the machine physically does, for safety-critical equipment.
asciilifeform: of the type-safe/bounds-safe languages, ada is the only one which fills this description.
asciilifeform: afaik.
asciilifeform: (there is also pascal, but there exists , afaik, no reasonably cross-arch compiler today for it. and ada is a variation on the pascal theme anyway...)
mircea_popescu: there's to my mind two different and unduly conjoined at the hip in practice meanings of "computer". ONE is "i need this tool to amplify my searching - false positives are not a concern, false negatives are very much a concern" ; but THE OTHER is "i need this machine to reliably do boring task for me - false positives are CATASTROPHIC, false negatives not so big a deal".
phf: i would learn pascal if only because it was spoken by knuth (c)
mircea_popescu: as per the first, returning "nothing there" wrongly when i scan hill will result in wolf eating me; returning "wolf" when nothing there will just result in more checks, no biggy.
asciilifeform: i caught the tail end of the pascal era in american school.
mircea_popescu: this kind-of mirrors the two functions of brain discussed in neuroscience, the fuzzy and the sharp state
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: taken literally, the first can simply take the form of 'iswolf(...) { return 1 ; } ' !
mircea_popescu: in wetware these are stress-switched (which is why "stress" even exists in mammals) ; but i don't expect hardware to be able to reconfigure my machine from one to the other - just as long as it does either well i can buy two machines.
asciilifeform: which is probably not what you want.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's a 2 take of 1.
mircea_popescu: no, not what i want.
phf: ru still uses pascal, at least at msucmc when i did evening math school kuryachiy taught everyone C, which i later learned was a kind of rebelling. dept proper uses pascal for all course material
mircea_popescu: same here, except what, decades ago o.O
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582787 << no, he means per hour. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 17:41 asciilifeform: four times more per what ? per km ??
mircea_popescu: his life after all comes in hour slices.
asciilifeform: (to briefly revisit upstack, for log readers, 'prolog disease' is when a language is designed in such a way that in the course of normal operation, you routinely ask the machine questions which may well be np-hard to answer; and at any rate the correspondence between the algorithmic complexity of your proggy as-written and the resulting instruction stream physically as-executed, is something other than obvious)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582795 << you live in an alt world. i don't think ANY car in buenos aires EVER averaged 50/hr over a whole day of its entire its lifetime. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 17:42 davout: reasonable car does what? 100km in an hour, drinks roughly 6~7L
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582806 << he's right, at that. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 18:14 davout: fun, but low pay (unless 30 years experience and a380 captain for air france/ba/lufthansa)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-13#1582807 << ahaha hanbot quite! "dale, entonces somos todos artistas!" is just about buenos airtards in their heart of hearts. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-13 18:14 deedbot: http://thewhet.net/2016/argentina-comicon-bonbon/ << The Whet - Argentina Comicon Bonbon.