asciilifeform: ideal cryptotron would have simply empty socket, bring yer own z80, specificityofdiddling, hah.
mircea_popescu: http://dl.wavetrex.eu/oldcomp/DSC_8811.JPG << lotta eg st micro chips used (the board etc are genuinely made in ro, but imported soviet capacitors etc)
asciilifeform: sov mil-grade caps are still prized ( tantalum-niobium , go and buy these in usa for any price )
mircea_popescu: http://dl.wavetrex.eu/oldcomp/DSC_8813.JPG << that beta is the iprs baneasa mark.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ayup.
mircea_popescu: so anyway, if you find a z80 with that beta on it, you got a genuine ro made item.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this item is similar to the last gasp of su comp makers, the iskra 286 , 100% orc except for the intel chip ( last su-indigenous clone was afaik 8086 )
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: in that last pic, the gluelogic loox to be a mix of su and ro
asciilifeform: ( K-*** is su designator system )
mircea_popescu: i expect.
mircea_popescu: i toldja, soviet capacitors :D
asciilifeform: 'glue' being the 74xxx discretolade
mircea_popescu: ah, the chip. yea
asciilifeform: seems like ro kept the amer inscriptions
asciilifeform: ( su had this peculiar renaming tradition )
mircea_popescu: i always suspected su never got enough foreign made to end up with the conventions.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: su mil-grade logic tends to look like http://skupkadetaley.ru/data/image/catalog/k573rf4.jpg << ceramic, gold, direct copy of usa mil/orbit grade
asciilifeform: these will prolly last for 500yr of powerup, if left alone
mircea_popescu: for srs. looking great.
asciilifeform: pictured is 64kbit (8kB) eprom.
asciilifeform has a stash.
asciilifeform: http://www.cpushack.com/EPROM.html << for aficionado/archaeologist strictly.
asciilifeform: ^ good photopr0n
asciilifeform: they tend to evaporate from market quickly, gold recyclers hunt'em down.
asciilifeform: there's often half a gram of au in these.
asciilifeform: some time last yr , asciilifeform , for lulz, stuffed a few units from stash into reader, read. they contained apparently valid z80olade. and, when erased and written to, hold the contents 100% ok
asciilifeform: notbad, for circa-84 or so device.
mircea_popescu: indeed
asciilifeform: su-made mil-logic also is pretty tolerant of overvoltage, thermal abuse, etc.
asciilifeform: who knows, possibly will survive sunspotocalypse etc.
Mocky: revisiting emacs: the problem for me, and the reason i quit it after ~1 year is that the cut between editor / os / keyboard was so obviously wrong. once you get comfortable with the useful stuff in there it sucks that you then can *only* use it in emacs. what, i can't have a decent editor for anything outside of emacs? most of the answers to that question are either a) fuck emacs or b) fuck everything outside of
Mocky: emacs. which to me explains org mode and emails and browser in emacs, and i suppose the emacs+ratpoison. but in any case a lot of that useful shit dun belong stuck inside an editor
asciilifeform: Mocky: hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826943☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:21 asciilifeform: in heathendom it is always either 'eh gnarly pos who needed it ever' or 'hands off my sacred animal, i'll shoot'
mircea_popescu: Mocky like what, a browser ?
asciilifeform: intensely polarizing item
Mocky: like running any named command with M-x, why can't i do that in my browser, or cad program or whaterver
Mocky: dun belong strictly in text editor only
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: Mocky: because your cad, browser, etc were written by monkeys, evidently
asciilifeform: emacs lives on because it is a kind of oasis
asciilifeform: ( granted, oasis where the giraffes , hippos, shit in the water, but nevertheless surrounded by sand as far as eye can see and quite appealing to the initiated )
Mocky: but as you say asciilifeform, problem is deeper than that
phf: Mocky: fwiw everything inside emacs is a side effect of essentially confining the lisp machine vm to the emacs process. on lisp machines proper the process was inside out: stick emacs everywhere you needed a text editor, but otherwise have separate programs.
asciilifeform: situation quite reminiscent of bitcoin immediately prior to trb
asciilifeform: recall, when nobody of any consequence was using anyffing but own private fork of 0.5 or whichever
esthlos: somewhat on topic, as someone still reading logz: is eventual plan tmsr dataflow lispm revival? heathen iron has to be abandoned, no?
asciilifeform: esthlos: current-day tmsr mostly runs on vintage iron.
asciilifeform: prolly will for foreseeable future.
phf: from that perspective climacs is a better approach: common lisp as a vm, mcclim as an application authoring framework, climacs as an editor widget
asciilifeform: ergo the keeping of linux, emacs, etc on life support.
mircea_popescu: esthlos baking hardware is a ways off.
asciilifeform: esthlos: the one piece of iron which was catastrophically absent was rng, and this was fixed
asciilifeform: esthlos: there were several old threads where the subject of 'what's it cost to bake cpu' is reviewed.
asciilifeform: !#s from:asciilifeform fab
a111: 126 results for "from:asciilifeform fab", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20%20fab
esthlos: asciilifeform: I've heard stories from someone who works the floor of an Intel plant in Oregon. seems like a very costly operation for those low-nm processors
mircea_popescu: especially in oregon.
asciilifeform: esthlos: the saving grace is that, outside of several very particular 'arms race' applications (e.g. miner) there is no actual reason to build the low-nm stuff
esthlos: oh yes. they just got the freedom (!!!) to pump their own gas
esthlos had the displeasure to go to school in portland
asciilifeform: if you can build equiv of, say, dec vax ( as su , in its last yrs of life, did ) you have something like fab-sovereignty.
esthlos: asciilifeform: that's what I suspected. most of those transistors wasted by modern kernel anyway
asciilifeform: virtually all.
asciilifeform: esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455187 << e.g. fab thread.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 02:06 asciilifeform: costs of chip fab as we know it, and of orbital launch, are even comparable.
esthlos: thanks!
ben_vulpes: esthlos: noshit? which school?
esthlos: reed. still have some friends out there
asciilifeform: esthlos: i recommend to read whole set of search output earlier, as part of your log eating , there was even an instance where asciilifeform went and got actual quotes from small fab houses
ben_vulpes: esthlos: ah, once a classy joint i hear. since then, well, epicenter of "i don't date nazis" nonsense
ben_vulpes: (noshit, you've never seen one)
mircea_popescu: anyone besides beta loser "date" anyway ?!
asciilifeform: esthlos: one of the yet-uncured ills is that you cannot actually pay to have a 1980s cpu made, at the current houses, all they offer is 'download this winblowz crapola and use our 60nm standard cells and oh here sign nda for whole thing'
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: it's all the poor dears know
asciilifeform: there's a fab in usa where, believe or not, they still make 2um classics like cdp1802 for usg. but they dun take walkins.
esthlos: ben_vulpes: all that needs saying: http://www.reed.edu/reed_magazine/sallyportal/posts/2016/sanctuary-college.html
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i dunno about that, man. from the slut's angle, there's a lot of plain fucking going about.
mircea_popescu 's only eyes on us campuses are female, may impose rosy glow.
esthlos: tho they do have some stuff going for them. nuclear reactor, excellent math and sciences. but yes, intolerable student body
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/shocked/ << oblig
mircea_popescu: lol
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i doubt there's what knows how to use a slut on that campus
mircea_popescu: no forks huh.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it... i don't know of a single case of girl laying a... student.
ben_vulpes: well hey i biked through from time to time
ben_vulpes: once upon a time.
mircea_popescu: jesus christ, imagine this wonder, two decades of "political corecntess" and "stop rape" and "yes means notanal" and whatever the fuck "empathy" and "really really understanding girls" and whatnot has reduced success rate to 0%
mircea_popescu: and in the spirit of their imbecility, they think this failure justifies... MORE OF THE CAUSE OF IT
mircea_popescu: i hadn't even realised this before.
ben_vulpes: well yeah doods don't even say hello, much less issue compliments anymore.
esthlos: asciilifeform: my understanding is that most unis used to have chip fab facilities much like machining facilities, and profs would regularly build iron. did something make the cost skyrocket? (maybe in logz: I will read)
ben_vulpes: and so the girlies shack up with other girlies, the boys retire to secular onasteries, and they all think it precisely tits.
asciilifeform: esthlos: they only ever built it in the '1 chip at a time with slave labour and oh most of'em dun actually work' sense.
mircea_popescu: i like the arrangement.
asciilifeform: esthlos: i visited my local one, it is of that type.
esthlos: asciilifeform: bah, sad.
phf: esthlos: that was never the case (though it certainly looked that way didn't it), the golden age of vlsi happened because of a darpa grant, essentially "give us your designs, we'll fab it for you free of charge"
esthlos: phf: you know, about a year ago I wrote Alan Kay asking wtf happened to computing since the days of darpa and xerox parc. his response was "funding now sux"
esthlos: o course, don't think he's done anything of merit since those days.
Mocky: has anyone?
mircea_popescu: because they permitted all sorts of patibulaires take over the show. with retards like marc shitdressen and paul graham handling the funding, usg tech went to shit.
Mocky: even alan kay is liek, this aint what object orient programming was meant to be
mircea_popescu: i can;t fucking believe english doesn't have an equivalent for "hangman's face"
phf: alan kay's fixation on children though always confused me, and i think was the undoing of most of his children. like his definition of what children want or like is that of a person profoundly out of touch.
phf: *most of his project
Mocky: like most academics really
mircea_popescu: i missed this definition ?
Mocky: which?
mircea_popescu: like his definition of what children want or like <\
esthlos: his model is mostly based on papert, piaget, and montessori. "The Children's Machine" etc
mircea_popescu: o brother.
asciilifeform: we definitely had the alan kay thread
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't know if there's a definition, "idea" would've been a better term. in any case i've never heard anything concrete, except for the papert/piaget/montessori like esthlos said statements.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753348☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 03:52 mircea_popescu: did we ever do http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-with-alan-kay/240003442?pgno=1 btw ?
phf: but his goal with smalltalk etc. wasn't to build a machine for grownups, it was supposed to be a montessori creative exploration device
phf: helpful pbf illustration, http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_T792V0_uoCw/R6T6hAIArPI/AAAAAAAAAWk/8zJzYpskpNA/s1600-h/PBF244-Preach_Skate.jpg
mircea_popescu: phf amusingly, this is a ~type~, like the 90s academic in the pepit jacket with the square bag slung over shoulder.
mircea_popescu: i knew plenty of such idiots.
mircea_popescu: "oh, the children" hurr durr, always boils down to a sort of listless, old pedophile's excitement.
mircea_popescu: "THE CONCEPTS!!!!"
mircea_popescu: "if only children floated in a soup of abstraction there'd be no world hunger" sorta wikiwank.
esthlos: phf: I think he wanted to build something for adults, but his work at apple disillusioned him, american adults too retarded for multiple desktops etc. so then yeah, pedo phase
phf: they are all inspired by dead poets society, "oh captain my captain" and all that stuff
mircea_popescu: quite possibly all choked on something they read
Mocky: oh man dr dobbs, haven't seen that in ages. I used to get the dead tree version
asciilifeform: at one time, in '70s, there was this crackpottery, 'programming will be like literacy, EVERYONE!11 will know it'. turns out -- troo! with the tidbit that it is ~exactly~ like actual literacy, and scarcely exists, and not 1 in 500 is physiologically capable of it
mircea_popescu: but the shocking part is, they have no formal diffusion, they're all individual/solitary and yet very uniformly minded.
mircea_popescu: often they band together and try to opress young republicans with "programs for exclelence" batshit insane nonsense along the veins of "this kid learned to read at 3 months old!"
mircea_popescu: they're usually very excited about "brain percentages" and usually mozart figures in the verbiage.
phf: esthlos: i don't think that's the case, squeak was his main apple project, but even going before than dynabook was already in the works at parc
esthlos: phf: oh yes, the dynabook, you're right
phf: https://www.mprove.de/diplom/gui/Kay72a.pdf
asciilifeform: phf: picture if it had been buildable then. then alankay could be sad and go to the bottle 40 yrs earlier, because 'this is not what i wanted, ended up ipad'
asciilifeform: believe or not, this was a nearly exact replay of almost identical nonsense surrounding introduction of tv
esthlos: neal stephenson gave a pretty lulzy rendition of the dynabook in the diamond age. poor kid gets ahold of the republican technology, goes on to rule the world
asciilifeform: 'it will be greatest education device!' 'people can watch great theatre!'
mircea_popescu: esthlos ruling the world is not a solitary endeavour.
asciilifeform: esthlos: fwiw i read it, pretty lulzy 'magic sword' trope.
esthlos doesn't know the first thing about ruling
mircea_popescu: the old gigas ring stories better.
mircea_popescu: "if i had a ring whereby i'd fuck women by myself..."
asciilifeform: the old midas touch story, better still.
Mocky: the view that ambient human brain damage level is strictly curable by 'education'
mircea_popescu: "you already have it. touch your thumb to your index"
asciilifeform: lol
esthlos: btw asciilifeform: saw you're a fan of greg egan. ever read permutation city?
asciilifeform: http://letstalkstory.com/readme/The%20Diamond%20Age.pdf >> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8IcZb/?raw=true << 313337 w4r3z
asciilifeform: esthlos: sure
asciilifeform: esthlos: iirc it was among his last readable items
asciilifeform: after he switched to oddball 'posthumans' became snoar
Mocky: kind of a weird book imo, permutation city
mircea_popescu: esthlos Mocky either of you ever read the luminous rewrite ?
Mocky: the rewrite but not the original!
mircea_popescu: lol ok.
phf: i've accidentally read greg egan's quarantine, followed by schild's ladder, i take it once you read one of his novels you've read all of them, unless i choose a particularly similar narratives
esthlos: any thoughts on the "consciousness jumping noncontinuously from electron to electron" speil? in the sense that, it seems dumb, but kinda sexy too
esthlos: mircea_popescu: I have not. gotta add it to the list
mircea_popescu: spiel.
mircea_popescu: esthlos i dunno what it means tho. how do you mean, consciousness jumping ?
phf: i think it's like transhumanist porn, the idea that consciousness will preserve its form on whatever substrate, so with some Quantum Physics we can have "humans" operating at subatomic levels by being there.
Mocky: if you could upload your consiousness to a pc, would you notice when when your process got swapped out. and if no, how long a pause could you tolerate
esthlos: my vague understanding is: if consciousness can exist "in" a computer, then what happens when the cpu states are reorganized arbitrarily, or distributed spatially? egan supposes that conscious entity can't detect the effect.
esthlos: but then what _is_ the cpu state but an arrangement of electrons? and why can't I say "these electrons on my butt are cpu state 53, those on alpha centauri are cpu state 54..."
asciilifeform: esthlos: d00d was sorta obsessed with this notion. he had another, earlier short story where mob boss is walking a schmuck into the forest to be shot, and tells him this yarn, and offers him a magic pill that will make it sink into his head, and ends up taking it himself, and eating own pistol
asciilifeform: esthlos: i do not know whether egan knows this, but buncha doped californirasts took his 'software souls' thing and turned it into a religion, of sorts
mircea_popescu: esthlos consciousness can't exist "in" a computer.
asciilifeform: !#s lesswrong
a111: 91 results for "lesswrong", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=lesswrong
asciilifeform: ^ them
mircea_popescu: not anymore than remanence of vision can exist "in" a camera.
mircea_popescu: subjective psychological phenomena are just that -- subjective.
asciilifeform: it's come to where asciilifeform reads 'consciousness' and 'reaches for pistol'
mircea_popescu: tulpa few steps behind, eh ?
asciilifeform: pretty much guarantee of dead-end snore
asciilifeform: aaha
esthlos: rofl
asciilifeform: it's a phlogiston.
phf: i think the causation is backwards, egan chooses substrate, assumes consciousness can exist on that substrate, then explores properties of substrate. doesn't say anything interesting about consciousness, but exploration of substrate. since naive mechanistic cellular machine interpretations are in vogue, that's the substrate that egan works with.
esthlos: so THAT's what those less wrong folks are jerking off to
phf: yeah, a computer program will produce the same result whether it runs on slow cpu or fast cpu. fascinating read.
esthlos: to be fair to egan, the actual supposition is not that consciousness exists "in" computer, but that it has a mathematical representation. not that it affects mircea_popescu 's point
mircea_popescu: wank is wank is wank. what do you mean "mathematical representation" ? ie, "depersonalization" ? how exactly is the number 3 going to be "personal"
mircea_popescu: but yes, the universal, uniyelding, perpetual and ubiquitous problem of "people" who were born even though god didn't have souls to supply the meat with is this : life's too heavy a burden.
mircea_popescu: if only they somehow could not be...
asciilifeform: the interesting twist is, even on comparatively deadly simple artificial comp, with 0 pretenses to 'conscious' anyffing, the notion that the soft is fully separable from the iron substrate, is poppycock.
asciilifeform: ( this is sorta the leitmotif of asciilifeform's crackpottery . )
asciilifeform bbl,meat
ben_vulpes: the montesorri stuff makes me laugh. oh, you mean the little learning machine thrives on new and varied challenges? you don't fucking say
phf: montresori education, do you fucking homework, or we bury you fucking alive
ben_vulpes: i have a stack of blank index cards upon which i write or draw whatever thing i feel like training the kid on at any given moment. "memory" games with shapes and letters and numbers, the alphabet and numbers, just starting in on word shapes. beyond that, no blinkenlichten, no plastics, a commitment to correcting diction and grammar all day and i'm pretty sure one's into diminishing returns after that
ben_vulpes: phf: lol
ben_vulpes: for god's sake, mr f!
ben_vulpes: "brio" actually ships battery-powered "engines", these days, with wheels that resist turning except when driven by batteries, if you can imagine.
ben_vulpes: the fuck kind of kid wants to watch a train roll about at 1 cm/min
ben_vulpes: ("the fuck kind of child abuser makes these toys, you mean")
phf: what's brio?
ben_vulpes: historically wood and steel train toys
ben_vulpes: these days battery-operated chinesium
phf: traditionally in ru we had https://www.fleischmann.de/en/productsearch/0-0-0-0-0-0-0-001001-0/products.html which was powered from outlet and down converted. trains would go, when place on conductive tracks and you controlled the speed with a potentiometer, so there's some fucking montesori going on
phf: i guess this was also popular in u.s., because i'd see it in movies and such, and presumably original mit hackers were model train fans, but i take it it's not really a 80s-90s kids thing..
trinque had a proper brio set as a kid
ben_vulpes: phf: i had a set quite like that as well, but never got into it. "so, it goes around? and if you go too fast, it pops off the track?" brio also more for the 2-5 set
asciilifeform: oh hey i had phf 's train. aaand the... abusable.. transformer, of course
phf: ben_vulpes: well, you need a nice length of tracks, nor do you need to make it a circle (just close the circuit by other means). it can figure nicely in any kind of gameplay, but honestly it gave me my first experiential understanding of electricity
phf: but yeah, there was a shortage of age appropriate games in russia. parents would keep you from breaking something by basically going "if you break it, i'll give you away to mr. policeman" and such.
ben_vulpes: i eventually learned that unless i can feel the gs in the seat of my pants i have trouble giving much of a fuck
phf: well shit buy him a squirrel suit then i dunno
phf takes his model trains and walks away to play by himself
ben_vulpes: and this is why i still don't have many male friends "we're going to go fly quadcopters!" "...why don't we drive out to the hangar and take the plane out instead?"
asciilifeform: oh hey ben_vulpes flies nao ?
ben_vulpes: any goon can get a powered bird to do simple things
ben_vulpes: it is the gliders that are actually hard.
ben_vulpes: "flies" is a bit strong; i like big kinetic-energy toys and have friends with them.
ben_vulpes: fun inversely proportional to lethality and all that
mircea_popescu: phf i had one of those too.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aa, so you get flown, lol
mircea_popescu: 2 to 12 v both ways converter, etc
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: don't tell the inca but i fly
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes generally around the age of 10-12 or so discover it can be applied to soft parts also.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes!
mircea_popescu: but it came with model houses, trees, bridges, multiple switches etc.
mircea_popescu: even something as simple as a figure 8 with 2 engines of diff powers was fun to watch
asciilifeform: was fun also to make 'hill' and 'discover' conservation of energy etc
mircea_popescu: i didn't have incline ramps in mine. but yes, these existed
mircea_popescu: anyway, beautiful handpainted railcars, too, had a double beer barrel thingee, all sorts.
asciilifeform: aha i think we had same item
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the plastic pine trees, round things go on a stick ?
asciilifeform: yes indeed
mircea_popescu: yeah sounds like same. though i thought mine was from teh ddr.
asciilifeform: mine was definitely from ddr
asciilifeform: mega-toy
mircea_popescu: let's see how far this goes. square, olive green converter box, with a white selector, sorta angular shape ?
mircea_popescu: selector sat on an inclined cutout in the box, and the voltage was represented by squarish indentations on either side, increasing in size ?
mircea_popescu: https://wildwoodantiquemalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/1524675776960UTJ18NSXPF8TK4Q2VLKA.jpg <<< ohohoh!
phf: huh i don't remember that style at all. looks like metal too, the ones that i had were plastic, kind of like https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/L350032-LN_3314489_Qty1_1.jpg
phf: i think maybe even same GDR brand "liliput"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform https://www.maerklin.de/en/products/z-scale/locomotives/ << check this out a) apparently it was maerklin ; b) still available.
mircea_popescu: expensive as shit still.
phf: mircea_popescu: but no check out liliput, https://www.modellbahnwelt24.de/Liliput-3
mircea_popescu checks
mircea_popescu: phf this is confusing, because the engines look right but the cars do not.
mircea_popescu: nah, definitely not it, wrong rail system. this seems flexible ? https://www.modellbahnwelt24.de/media/image/product/46180/md/li-pfp-h0-01_liliput-proses-pfp-h0-01-flexgleishalter-fuer-h0-00.jpg
phf: i found märklin first when searching, but it's not gdr
mircea_popescu: mine were definitely rigid. pre-curved elements. had to mix and match, i had a ballot of them
phf: yeah, i'm pretty sure they've not even made flexible ones until quite recently
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: hm.
phf: but if i had to guess from picture there's two straights at the end and three curves in the middle
phf: or two rather
mircea_popescu: i recall TT branding, but that's just generic size indication
mircea_popescu: phf https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DnUWFFS_zBs/maxresdefault.jpg << this looks very right re rails. which is why i thought marklin
mircea_popescu: in fact all of their track shots look exactly like it
mircea_popescu: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vCVSFfWfOEo/maxresdefault.jpg etc
phf: oh lol apparently they made them in ussr also http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/our-library/2008-05-07-13-48-02/117-2008-07-23-17-21-55
phf: http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/images/portal_files/vasily/istoriya_proizvodstva/ov_02.jpg
mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/M%C3%A4rklin_2881_-_KPEV_S10_1008.jpg/800px-M%C3%A4rklin_2881_-_KPEV_S10_1008.jpg << definitely ; had this exact item.
phf: honestly half of the ones i saw, from a totally different range of companies, look familiar, but i suspect that at least moscovites got the ussr version, probably something like this http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/images/portal_files/vasily/istoriya_proizvodstva/ov_05.jpg
mircea_popescu: it's the details though, like say the conical buffer plate supports, or the electrified wheel and so on
mircea_popescu: phf funny, rails linked from there look 100% like "patriotic knockoff rails"
phf: hmm true, also the soviets probably wouldn't make those german style train stations
phf: you don't like rail? rail take you place no problem
mircea_popescu: right ? all whitewash with brick corners and stuff
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
mircea_popescu: honestly i like rail just fine, but we were for some reason discussing provenance.
mod6: im not done catching up on this solid log yet; but if someone wants to make some money, can always start sellin for pizarro!
mod6: come on now
mircea_popescu: you only saw plain matter solid log ; as self-collapse accelerates it becomes neutrino degenerate matter solid log.
mod6: i like the emacs/x11 thread
mircea_popescu: ah then you're almost there.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/so-im-having-a-cup-of-coffee/ << Trilema - So I'm having a cup of coffee...
mod6: lol
mod6: srsly, folks: SPECIAL PRICES!
mircea_popescu: >D
mircea_popescu: aaand in today's lulzies, https://www.wattpad.com/392099770-deep-web-the-hidden-part-of-internet-lolita-slave
mircea_popescu: "YOU ARE READING Deep Web (The HIDDEN PART OF INTERNET)"
hanbot: ahahaha, it had me at nabokob
mircea_popescu: (pedophilia)
lobbes: my latest blog post re: getting rockchip fully LAMPed >> http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2018/06/getting-php56-and-mysql-to-play-nice-on-arm64-rockchip-gentoo/
lobbes: speaking of, trinque could I get http://blog.lobbesblog.com/feed/ added to blogroll?
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826916, I don't use emacs. I've tried it on an off and after reading the logs I'm sure I do not want to get "locked in" to it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?
ave1: I'm currently on vim again with a lot of work done on in bash.
ave1: I used to program in Smalltalk for work, was a lot of fun.
asciilifeform: potentially interesting, to n00bz, old emacs-decay thread : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455017☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 00:36 asciilifeform: phf: the emacs tumour (see logz, the 'flycheck' thread) is what really blew my mind
asciilifeform: !!up FundsAreSafuh
deedbot: FundsAreSafuh voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: hello ?
FundsAreSafuh: hello
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: who are you, and what brings you to #trilema ?
FundsAreSafuh: the pursuit of knowledge, and an adoration for the great Mircea Popescu
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: can i presume you read the logs ?
FundsAreSafuh: I used to lurk here quite often back in the 2014-2015 days, back then I used to be mentioned on the channel for some of my BitcoinTalk antics
FundsAreSafuh: I'm back for old times sake
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: you won't win much from plain lurking, i recommend to read the logs, http://btcbase.org/log/
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: do also make use of the search box.
FundsAreSafuh: thank you
asciilifeform: not having been a reader of tardstalk, asciilifeform does not know who is FundsAreSafuh . care to introduce yourself ?
asciilifeform: e.g. 'i am a chimney sweep from calcutta, and i break nsa block ciphers in spare time' , format.
FundsAreSafuh: I made a small fortune trading Friedcat's ASICMINER shares on GLBSE, before Nefario disappeared. Now I'm a crypto nomad spending time between NYC and the Republic of Panama
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: lol, so accomplice of famous bamboozler, living off spoils ??
FundsAreSafuh: aye, cap'n
asciilifeform: gotta admit, FundsAreSafuh , i'm quite curious re what you are hoping to find here.
asciilifeform: easy chump pickings ? that's three doors down
FundsAreSafuh: I guess nostalgia brought me back, and the realization that things are never going to be the same. I'm just a former MPOE holder come back to join the ol' gang
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: which things ?
FundsAreSafuh: The thrill of buying 60 BTC, and spending it all on cannabis. The exhilaration of learning PGP for the first time. The realization that FeedZeBirds was a scam.
diana_coman: FundsAreSafuh, how do you plan to "join" exactly?
diana_coman: (for the innocent reader, see point #2 in http://trilema.com/2014/a-compendium-of-basic-points-about-bitcoin-for-the-benefit-of-various-confused-noobs/#selection-127.0-127.77)
FundsAreSafuh: joining is for folks who don't belong
diana_coman: that doesn't make any sense
diana_coman: FundsAreSafuh, what do you spend your time on?
diana_coman: !!up FundsAreSafuh
deedbot: FundsAreSafuh voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: in other-same lulz, usg amping up the "upgrading" of "secure" http sites off the interwebs.
asciilifeform: hm?
mircea_popescu: you know, "upgrade tls". various "cloud providers" "rolling out" "support"
asciilifeform: aaa
mircea_popescu: in other news, diana_coman reports that we've actually managed moving the actual server on a .gpr process ; there's some remaining problems with linking bits, but seem perhaps resolvable.
mircea_popescu: which brings us to : ben_vulpes would pizarro be amenable to bring up the spare sometime so she makes it a full gnat musl thing, test whether we can move everything there, and either move it (so basically, moving servers) or else backing down (so basically i guess either renting both for a while or powerting back down the spare) ?
ben_vulpes: sounds reasonable, let me check notes and see if there's any reason not to
asciilifeform: s.mg spare ? should be ready to roll, disks in, etc. possibly will need FGation.
asciilifeform: i delivered also its raid card, it is currently in its crate, in the bilge.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: out of curiosity, was the initial test of adatronic serv on rockchip ? how did it perform ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no, not on rockchip, on s.mg server but basically just setting for the session the $PATH to point to musl gnat
asciilifeform: aa
mircea_popescu: dun fit so well on rockchip.
diana_coman: and I'm not that keen on testing on yet another arch basically
mircea_popescu: also.
asciilifeform: ram-heavy, isnit.
mircea_popescu: you know, engineering, that thing where you try to change the smallest count of things per step
asciilifeform: aha
diana_coman: ^^^^^
mircea_popescu: the above + "keep clear and reproducible notes of all steps" is pretty much 100% the profession.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to gpggram BingoBoingo re necessary qty of FGs, the raid geometry to use ( 5? 10? ) , necessary # of nic connections, he will bring up the box.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, same as s.mg server really if possible
asciilifeform: iirc that one has raid10 with 1 hot spare.
diana_coman: yes
asciilifeform: aite
asciilifeform: diana_coman: will you be installing cuntoo ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, uhm, not at this stage; can haz precisely dulap-whatevers setup s.mg came with?
asciilifeform: sure
diana_coman: great, thanks
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to connect ipkvm device also then
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and the usb boot stick.
mircea_popescu: none of this is an emergency, still some issues to fix as i said.
asciilifeform: it will be getting the asciilifeform-baked trad gentoo, from same tar.gz as dulap and orig s.mg.
diana_coman: sounds good
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman which linking issues ?
asciilifeform: ( eulora-particular ? or issue with ave1's gnat..? )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, eulora-particular really
asciilifeform: aa ok
diana_coman: the server is a ball of fuck that was trimmed from earth-size to country-size, but still
asciilifeform: re linkers, musl lib can only be linked with other musl libs, but prolly diana_coman already knew this.
asciilifeform: ( there may be a pill to work around this, but i do not currently know it )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, "musl libs" meaning libs built with musl, right? that's my current understanding
asciilifeform: right
diana_coman: i.e. on a musl system I can rebuild everything or not?
diana_coman: or do you mean I have to have cuntoo to be able to try this?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: can, with certain known exceptions ( emacs, mainly , per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827118 thrd )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:08 phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works
diana_coman: I guess I'll find out by trying it at any rate
asciilifeform: just about errything that doesn't abuse some glibc-specific knob, runs 100% under muslism ( e.g. trb, which was the first proggy i personally built for musl, back in the http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000133.html days )
asciilifeform: ( well, technically 2nd, gcc was 1st )
diana_coman: so there is a chance it'll work; if not, at least I'll know what part is even more idiotic than the rest
asciilifeform: chances are that it'll work without coad changes.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you don't need cuntoo to build musl executables, ave1's gnat does this on an ~arbitrary linux. ( via similar method as the 2015 'rotor' item )
diana_coman: aha, that was my understanding so that's good then
asciilifeform: ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-03#1820427 test and after )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-03 18:36 asciilifeform: ch10 ffa builds a (stripped) 320kB elf
asciilifeform: i do not presently have a cuntoo box
asciilifeform: a musl-gnat is first built, using a conventional gnat; this is then installed in user homedir, placed in path, and becomes the active gnat; with which then can build musltronic proggies.
asciilifeform: which then run on , theoretically, any linux of compatible cpu.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, aha, that's pretty much the recipe I'll try to follow
asciilifeform: i tested his latest builder on x64 and arm64, both perform like champs.
asciilifeform: ( the 1 item which did not work, is the building of x64 gnat ~on~ arm64 gnat, iirc he went to fix this and not yet come back )
diana_coman: right; I can confirm I tried that on my rockchip too with same results as you had already reported
asciilifeform: what i'd like to end up with, is to make ave1's gnat the default gcc in my gentoos ( and , in time, in cuntoo )
asciilifeform: but for this it will have to work in all possible combos of 'who-whom'
asciilifeform: when ave1 comes back with patch for cross-x64 , it will be time to genesis the thing
asciilifeform: and then can start the process of auditing, cleansing.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> diana_coman: plox to gpggram BingoBoingo re necessary qty of FGs, the raid geometry to use ( 5? 10? ) , necessary # of nic connections, he will bring up the box. << The server needs drives to set up a raid
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to make inventory of drives
asciilifeform: ( or link to existing )
asciilifeform: oh grr loox from my notes, to be the case that only the primary s.mg box was provisioned with disk
ave1: asciilifeform, I did get it to cross compile on aarch64 too, it was a question of more memory. Do you still have an error log? Also the order has to be correct in the build-ada.sh. Like so: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-04#1820499☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-04 04:26 ave1: asciilifeform, also what is in the build-ada.sh? the last line on aarch64 should read: ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada aarch64 x86_64
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to confirm this by physically looking at the iron
asciilifeform: ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-03#1820460 >> https://archive.li/mFPtM << not a memory problem☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-03 22:27 asciilifeform: !Q later tell ave1 http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/J7Aey/?raw=true << amd64 gnat dun build on arm64.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I looked at the iron on my way back to the terminal after Uruguay's disappointing 1-0 victory
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to visit ye olde iron shoppe then, and obtain quote for 5 1tb ssd, if available, or output re what is available, if these are not
ave1: Yes, that one looked like a build / host / target def problem. Which usually goes back to the build-tarballs line.
BingoBoingo: I can pull the chassis out of the cabinet and see if they drives are hiding in there somewhere other than the drive bays.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will do.
ave1: I.E. I could reprocude this error by first compiling aarch64 with ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada aarch64 and then running the script with making that line: ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada x86_64
ave1: with -> while
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to correct the above disk spec if necessary
ben_vulpes: ah; that's right. box bought from s.nsa was chassis-only
ben_vulpes: chassis + ram
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: correct, and ben_vulpes , trinque , lobbes ( iirc ) send in disks , which then went into it
asciilifeform: *sent
trinque: mhm
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu if you need this box asap, it is possible to pull the hot spare from primary and make a single-disked staging box out of the spare.
ben_vulpes: yup.
BingoBoingo: http://logs.bvulpes.com/search?q=disks&c=pizarro
asciilifeform: iirc there is also a cold spare ssd belonging to mod6 , can work something out with him.
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes do we have a Troo Full Inventory posted somewhere ?
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: sent out an inventory recently, let me hand that over to ya
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I sent a signed and encrypted cabinet inventory report, can repaste
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to repaste
asciilifeform: (or link)
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/UHDbz
asciilifeform: disk shortage is serious problem imho, these will have to be an absolute priority item for next airdrop. the tricky bit is that the only reliable way to transport'em, without triggering the ruinous tax, is inside machines.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it is very much worth looking into speaking with iron shoppe d00d and working out something re disks. may prove to be cheaper.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: put your sp study to use in the battlefield.
BingoBoingo: The inventory report again http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/no9RH/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ty BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will speak to people.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the samsung 850 in the bilge, confirmed is mod6 's ?
asciilifeform: mod6: ^ plox to confirm
asciilifeform: there is a 860 in bilge, marked 'tbf'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: at your earliest chance, plox to install the 3ware raid and its cabling marked 'smg', in the respective machine.
ben_vulpes: yeah, that's the foundation's drive
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but whose is the 850 ?
trinque: I have the 1tb 860 evo
asciilifeform: ( in the fyootoor, folx, plz label your iron ! )
trinque: as spare
asciilifeform: ok confirmed, trinque's
trinque: and never touched my hands, so no label
trinque: the 6tb WD is also mine
asciilifeform: i'ma ask that anyffing sent to asciilifeform for transport, be either marked (if sent from human hands) or serial # gpggrammed to asciilifeform , so he can mark it.
BingoBoingo: <trinque> the 6tb WD is also mine << That was marked
asciilifeform: ( if posted from vendor direct )
trinque: aye aye
BingoBoingo will dive and confirm markings
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: you got it
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ApA3A/?raw=true
diana_coman: asciilifeform, BingoBoingo it is NOT asap, no; take your time, no hurry
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ApA3A/?raw=true << Correct
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: ty
diana_coman: to reiterate: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827753☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 17:04 mircea_popescu: none of this is an emergency, still some issues to fix as i said.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: ty
ben_vulpes: !!v 679E24D9E94B4273ABD3A76D7E9D4CE3099B442C14D4A41635AABFA733F662C0
deedbot: ben_vulpes paid jurov invoice 1
asciilifeform: even so, better to start the train going, so disks etc can be 'yes!! we have disks!' if suddenly a primary box goes up in smoke, rather than 'oh hmm where do we get some disks'.
asciilifeform: http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro?d=2018-6-20#383922 << of interest to potentially all pizarro customers ; updated disk cost ( via the method used to deliver BingoBoingo the cable in earlier experiment )
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-06-20 17:59 asciilifeform: breaking noose : shitazon gives quote of 314.21 ( 237.99 disk ; 14.51 postage; 61.71 orc bakshish )
asciilifeform: i.e. any # of ssd can be in BingoBoingo's hands in about 6 wks, via this 'worst' method.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: What about those retarded "max X per customer" Amazon limits?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: loox like 5 per crate
asciilifeform: is the tardlimit
asciilifeform: i just now tried the quote , it's a linear equation
asciilifeform: so still 60 of bakshish per .
asciilifeform: i.e. ~1500 to buy, transport, ransom, 5 units.
asciilifeform: observe that the cost of the disk itself has fallen by ~100bux since april; seems like the ssd famine may be ending
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the s.mg spare is inventory # 26 ( w/ redundant ps )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Yeah, that's in the notes for the next signed inventory report
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes , didja ever send the stockpile of FG usb-ttl connectors, over to BingoBoingostan ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if you haven't , pleeeez do
asciilifeform: they belong ~there~
asciilifeform: afaik he currently has ~just enuff~ to connect ~one~ pair.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: all righty
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: plox to gpggram to BingoBoingo , tracking # etc, when it has sailed
asciilifeform: so he can work the necessary magicks
ben_vulpes: will do
asciilifeform: ( let's imagine, say, the eulora folx suddenly want to connect 6 FG's. currently cannot do )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: plox to gpggram to BingoBoingo , tracking # etc, when it has sailed << Between these and the disks... mod6 interested in a trip?
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827839 << roger that.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 17:59 asciilifeform: i'ma ask that anyffing sent to asciilifeform for transport, be either marked (if sent from human hands) or serial # gpggrammed to asciilifeform , so he can mark it.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: ^ plox to confirm << >> <+asciilifeform> there is a 860 in bilge, marked 'tbf' << sounds like TBF has a spare 860 then. makes sense.
mod6: <+diana_coman> asciilifeform, BingoBoingo it is NOT asap, no; take your time, no hurry << barring a straight out emergency, I can't get away at the moment. About a month ago, I was trying to plan a trip around end of July; but now, that's locked out.
mod6: Again, less complete emergency. Let's see if we can source whatever parts are needed at 'ye ole iron shop', or other method, before I think about dropping everything.
mod6: *unless
mod6: diana_coman: If not ASAP, that helps, any available guidence on your time horizon for this to be racked & working is helpful.
mircea_popescu: lol this created some excitement.
mircea_popescu: mod6 if it's by july it'll be fine.
mod6: So, we need something stood up by July 1st-ish.
mircea_popescu: ideally.
mod6: Ok thanks for the time-frame there.
ben_vulpes: diana_coman: why does it need to be wholly separate machine? i think something might have flown over my head
mircea_popescu: so it's a fully ada/musl machine.
asciilifeform: full musl implies cuntoo, hence asciilifeform's initial confusion
mircea_popescu: wasn't the idea that we build it with itself and so on ?
asciilifeform: right, ave1 produced a working self-builder gnat. nobody's bolted it into a gentoo in such a way that ~everything~ gets built with it, of yet. ( this as i understand is in the cuntoo conveyor )
mircea_popescu: and so it is here : if gets away without cuntoo, will try, if not, with.
asciilifeform: earlier diana_coman requested conventional gentoo. what'll it be ?
mircea_popescu: i'm guessing this continues once she wakes.
asciilifeform: aite.
asciilifeform: ( btw , in case it wasn't clear, static-musltronic-gcc outputs run on conventional ~and~ musltronic linux )
asciilifeform: just like in earlier rotor-trb.
asciilifeform: in principle they'll execute anywhere with 2.6+ kernel abi.
mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, it was my very good pleasure to see that shithead morgan freeman besieged by the idiocy come to roost that he dedicated so much of his life to helping spawn.
mircea_popescu: if he gets thrown in jail by the exact fucktards he lied and stole for, i might even go visit, to point and laugh.
mircea_popescu: !#s "comunismu" "ajuta"
a111: 1 result for "\"comunismu\" \"ajuta\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22comunismu%22%20%22ajuta%22
mircea_popescu: theere we go.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-10-03#1291080☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-10-03 19:56 mircea_popescu: ascii_field as the verse goes, "comunismu-ntii te-ajuta, tac tac tac, si apoi te executa, pac pac pac."
asciilifeform: whossat?
mircea_popescu: ye olde moscopol.
mircea_popescu: and in other "ddr trainset" memorabilia, went by wurstspezialitäten tienda, got gal a packet of maoam
mircea_popescu: anyone recall them starburst candies ?
asciilifeform: i meant freeman
mircea_popescu: nigger in http://trilema.com/2018/lucy/
trinque: !!v 2E51F89A85C4095CB095FE2E801A02832370E0D2E40725790A4FF184307BA36F
deedbot: Invoiced ben_vulpes 0.26994957 <<
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/06/clinton-through-obama-era-family-separation-policy-ended-by-trump-executive-order/ << Qntra - Clinton Through Obama Era 'Family Separation' Policy Ended By Trump Executive Order
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: "jail-like"
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
ben_vulpes: !!v 47890E77153D97A14E0A3602032F495C70D0A52EA256BC86EA35DD4DF7DF0807
deedbot: ben_vulpes paid trinque invoice 9
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827727 << can bring up spare chassis with hot-spare for raid array on very short notice, but if you would like to cut over to this machine from your existing one o'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 16:46 mircea_popescu: which brings us to : ben_vulpes would pizarro be amenable to bring up the spare sometime so she makes it a full gnat musl thing, test whether we can move everything there, and either move it (so basically, moving servers) or else backing down (so basically i guess either renting both for a while or powerting back down the spare) ?
ben_vulpes: i'll need until late-july to kit out the bays