log
▁▁▁▁⏐︎▁▁ 11045
BingoBoingo: My experience and experiments among the unthinking yet literate is that in spoken language situations the behavior channel carries more information than the "language" channel.
BingoBoingo: The intra language sound shifts can be a bitch.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as per http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-20#1888551 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-20 17:20 mircea_popescu: apparently 200 reqs ~per 100ms~ (that's how long it takes to complete one) is not enough to bring it down.
mircea_popescu: sudo ldconfig -v | grep libode
mircea_popescu: libode.so.1 -> libode.so.1.1.1
mircea_popescu: a damn., wrong chan.
trinque: Mocky et al, ping
asciilifeform: incidentally, imho it's rather perverse that the popularly expected behaviour in 'moar server reqs / sec. than can be serviced' is 'fall down' rather than 'triage + busy signal'
asciilifeform: why the fuck should it ever fall down.
asciilifeform: if the cycles aint there to serve a page or whatever op, then simply shouldnt ACK, that's it
asciilifeform: the folx who shat out apache & co., i suspect were at least as aggressively retarded as koch.
mircea_popescu: because it's written by free and open source people ?
asciilifeform: ( at the risk of pedantry : they used ~heapism~ . consequently, found it impossible to answer the q 'does machine have the cycles to do this-here request?' in o(1) ! )
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's not unsalvageable. very robust machines can be built on apache.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the microshit people, innocent of opensores, did same, it's a c macula
mircea_popescu: ~same people, really.
mircea_popescu: it's not like microshit hired a different set of eggheads than populated slashdot.
mircea_popescu: ~same romanian dorks on both "aisles"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thing is roughly like trb - can throw iron at it until it eats the desired reqs/sec without shitting self. but, just as in trb, it's a barbaric/empirical ritual, quite impossible to say 'on napkin' how much cpu will yield what # of what kB pg served /sec w.out falling
asciilifeform: and ( again like trb ) it dies disgracefully at the boundary of capacity,
asciilifeform: cuz has nfi what capacity is.
Mocky: !!pay-invoice BingoBoingo 1
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vK1Mp/?raw=true
Mocky: !!v D80D0E6CF388A6BFEF9DE3BB9B283433119DE1BD1B3D8AA59A341A4ABB2CB678
deedbot: Mocky paid BingoBoingo invoice 1
mircea_popescu: this is not factual, actually.
mircea_popescu: as exemplified by the point in case.
asciilifeform: hm?
mircea_popescu: well, trilema's not dead, is it.
asciilifeform: not dead, but couldja say just how many cycles/s and bytes of ram will give what # of loads/s ?
mircea_popescu: atm eg doing ~220 connections / .1s sorta thing. the problem's the would-be attackers output capacity, not some kind of limit on trilema side. it'll serve as much as dood can send through.
asciilifeform: if architecture of bldgs worked the way apache is worked, all structures would be pyramid
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cycles/s or ram bytes about as meaningful in this discussion, might as well ask "how much free memory". no such thing, really.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a sane server oughta work at ~line~ rate
mircea_popescu: which is what it does ?
asciilifeform: i'll believe, will assume mircea_popescu actually tested with a lan-connected box requesting loads at gb/s or whichever. but to make this guarantee with apache and other heapistic softs, needs massive margin of iron
mircea_popescu: the cycles go 70-80% user / 10-15% system / etc whether there's 5 or 500 people asking for a page, it just doesn't figure into some sort of cycle economy
asciilifeform: !#s what i think it crashes
a111: 16 results for "what i think it crashes", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=what%20i%20think%20it%20crashes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the issue on http is generally packets rather than bytes.
asciilifeform: ^ see also
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sessions, if you want pedantic, but sure
mircea_popescu: and yes, a properly configured webserver serves at line speed, in the sense that the way to ddos is by overwhelming ~the router~ not the webserver. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: but this is not some kind of xanadu. item exists.
asciilifeform: aha, simply eats 10x ( or even moar ) current than really oughta.
asciilifeform: ( and suffers ugly meltdown if you ~do~ saturate it eventually )
mircea_popescu: anyway. the reason you were seeing at some point slightly longer pageloads is precisely that, it'll serve you when it gets to you. and if you decide (if ~you~ decide) that whenever's too late and timeout, more power to you, feel free to retry.
asciilifeform: this is correct behaviour.
asciilifeform: it really shouldnt require a n-fold overprovisioned machine tho.
mircea_popescu: and otherwise, the server actually spits out in excess of 2k pageloads / s, as a matter of actuarial evidence.
asciilifeform believes
mircea_popescu: i dunno what specifically overprovisioning would mean here.
mircea_popescu: i mean, pick a thoroughput you wish, build the box, that's what you get.
BingoBoingo: The weakest link on the Internet are... the links
mircea_popescu: i guess one could say "my blog will never have 100s of simultaneous readers, so mp's machine is 10x overprovisioned". which is fine, but also entirely arbitrary.
mircea_popescu: one could also say "there's not THAT MANY PEOPLE, and if there are they can sure as fuck wait". which, also fine.
mircea_popescu: moreover, considering it takes 10 minutes or more to ~read~ an article and whatever, a second or less to actually load it, even being able to serve 1 request/s is fucking ample, each day you will have put out 600 day-reader worth of material.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my objection is to the prng element in apache and other heapistic proggies, where actual resource consumption is a function not only of req rate, but how much footprint of each one happened to be , fragging the heap
asciilifeform: this is well studied in trb, but applies elsewhere
mircea_popescu: i don't think there even exists a publication currently that manages 500 reader-days. period and full stop, the fucking bible doesn't get that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not nearly as serious a problem in apache as you seem to think.
asciilifeform: it doesn't stop being retarded simply cuz mircea_popescu and for that matter asciilifeform give the thing 256GB of ram to run it and never see the barf ☟︎
asciilifeform: *run in
BingoBoingo: After spending substantial time as a skeptic apache beats the "smarter" alternatives (lighttpd, nginx, cherokee, etc)to apache
asciilifeform: sorta like, building bridge of solid rock all the way from road to sea floor is great, if you have infinite rock, but is titanic waste, if yer at all interested in max bang for yer cement bux
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: they're all exactly same from this pov
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: No, the "smart" alternatives that implement "clever" die sooner
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: apache afaik is hands down best horse in that glue factory.
BingoBoingo: We don't use horses in this glue factory. Too expensive.
BingoBoingo: Depending on what you need apache can be titebond II or titebond III, If everything else is on point you can beat it to hold your toothpicks.
BingoBoingo: Nginx is a sort of polyurethane "gorilla glue", very african. The details can be glossed over in a way that makes it appear very cool until pressure reveals a bunch of gaps have been filled up with exactly foam rubber.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: last i recall it was =~ apache, but with buncha features cut out ( phpism, load balanceism, etc )
BingoBoingo: Poking suggests otherwise. It's a reverse proxy. It can be deployed as a webserver and people deploy it as that, but it was designed around a different job.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the pt i was trying to make is possibly too subtle to readily make sense until i write a proggy around it, to illustrate. which sadly aint happening in near term.
asciilifeform: assertion is, the cost of a processing job oughta 1) be calculable in advance of performing said job 2) depend only on ~said job~, rather than what else the machine happened to have done recently or may be doing concurrently with remaining cycles
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I suspect I know where your point is going, but at this time we don't yet need a violin. We're still trying to sit in chairs without finding out ass navigating debris on its way to the ground.
asciilifeform: that way you can have something like civilized engineering calculation, rather than ' i dun know if i'll buy 3 kg of potato or 4, so let me bring a 50 tonne flatbed truck'
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> assertion is, the cost of a processing job oughta 1) be calculable in advance of performing said job 2) depend only on ~said job~, rather than what else the machine happened to have done recently or may be doing concurrently with remaining cycles << This is a violin. We gotta get a lumber yard stocking something other than Spruce/pine/fir or we hit the sill plate problem.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2013/ho-vinto-la-lotteria-di-capodanno/ << oblig mircea_popescu illustration re truck
BingoBoingo stuck in wood metaphors
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: subj aint a short-term urgent itch by any means. moar re general principle
BingoBoingo: Well, eventually we might get maple, walnut, and ferrocement
asciilifeform: briefly upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889021 << possibly i'm thick, but it ~also~ never made sense to me why a ~router~ would fall down, either. seems like if yer pipe is e.g. 100mb/s , and incoming enemy crapola at 1000mb/s, then you simply oughta get (from pov of arbitrary test peer) 90% packet loss. rather than a smoking crater where router was. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 03:00 mircea_popescu: and yes, a properly configured webserver serves at line speed, in the sense that the way to ddos is by overwhelming ~the router~ not the webserver.
asciilifeform: granted i know that they ~do~ fall down, but to me this suggests that they're made of wadded toilet paper, rather than it being an inescapable physical fact
asciilifeform: ( and also happen to know why : they 'give to allcomers' in the sense of allocating memory for state of tcp connection. therefore it stands to reason that if one built router that doesn't tcp at all -- it will not fall. )
asciilifeform: fwiw simply rejecting tcp won't do the trick, you also gotta not allocate state for udp ( all extant routers, afaik, do.. but e.g. s.mg protocol and similar, will operate entirely correctly without this, as i understand it )
asciilifeform: i.e. could build router that simply... routes. rather than trying to be 'smart' and keep stateful connections.
asciilifeform bbl,meat
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/01/22/the-internet-of-poverty-or-why-residential-internet-is-cheap/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- The Internet Of Poverty Or Why Residential Internet Is Cheap
BingoBoingo: ^ Rela-TIT
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: entirely makes sense.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Substantial poking was involved
BingoBoingo: No in-WoT blood was drawn in the research
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: interestingly, the cache-of-lolcats thing actually seems to have freed up substantial bw for actual net traffic. to the point that my 100bux actually buys symmetric 100mb/s here, on erry day of the year except when some idjit backhoes the fiber
asciilifeform: ( symmetric to/from uy, jp, etc, rather than to lolcat local cache, i dun subscribe to the latter )
BingoBoingo: You just don't know that you subscribe to the lolcat cache.
asciilifeform: how's that work ?
asciilifeform: it's a subscription 'aol' neh
asciilifeform: it dun come for phree with the pipe, round here
BingoBoingo: Well, you've connected to IRC without a cloak before, yes? You don't have a personally assigned ASN nor do you get your 100 mbps from a drop at the local IX
BingoBoingo: Your upstream has the lolcat cache
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: how does it cache the e.g. tB of rng i happen to generate in racked box in jp and dload via ssh ?
asciilifeform: cache only affects public/allcomer resource.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It doesn't, but at some point when you might choose to load lolcat, lolcat will be served from cache unless you proxy the lolcat request through Japan like a dick
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and no it aint a 'industrial' pipe, with asn etc. which is why i marvel, that it closely approximates one functionally, despite the cheap.
BingoBoingo: Well, maybe your neighbors are poorer than mine
asciilifeform: fewer of them, at any rate
asciilifeform: per sq km
asciilifeform bbl,meat
BingoBoingo: FTR local mobile phone companies have been advertising Whatsapp gratis since before I arrived. They new point of competition is move up to a postpaid plan and get "netflix gratis"
BingoBoingo would be VERY surprised if the netflix appliance takes more than 4U in a rack
BingoBoingo: But yes, to answer http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-16#1725706 Netflix and the handful of Youtube videos that get watched exactly work as a couch in local endpoint's DC or point of presence ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-10-16 19:33 mircea_popescu: so your idea of how netflix works is that a bunch of couch dwelling "Criminology" majors queue up before a dc to be shown their inane shit on the dc's wall mounted display ?
BingoBoingo: If your endpoints hits Netflix for 5gbps they'll let you leverage 1.2 gbps every half day for 20gbps+
BingoBoingo: It's Netflix, Youtube, the Porntubes, and the prformer side of the porn Camgirls
BingoBoingo: And it turns out that Airstrip 2 (Formosa) is indeed large enough to facilitate dying alone in the elements https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/bikini-climber-freezes-to-death-after-20m-fall-from-mountain/news-story/5248010cf59fe8983422969ca3498e77
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: how does it cache the e.g. tB of rng i happen to generate in racked box in jp and dload via ssh ? << I will say that this does suggest .jp s a candidate for Pzarro rack 2 when that time comes ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889040 << this is entirely besides the point. yes with 256 mb it can serve more simultaneously than with 64, but that's all the difference. the fact that a larger engine puts out more torque than a smaller engine isn't proof positive of "something fundamentally wrong with carnot cycles" ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 03:08 asciilifeform: it doesn't stop being retarded simply cuz mircea_popescu and for that matter asciilifeform give the thing 256GB of ram to run it and never see the barf
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889061 << this principle may be interesting in principle ; but in practice you refused to do anything about it, as per that whole http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847524 ; one's stuck concluding that there's more to the principle than the principle. ☝︎☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 04:07 asciilifeform: briefly upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889021 << possibly i'm thick, but it ~also~ never made sense to me why a ~router~ would fall down, either. seems like if yer pipe is e.g. 100mb/s , and incoming enemy crapola at 1000mb/s, then you simply oughta get (from pov of arbitrary test peer) 90% packet loss. rather than a smoking crater where router was.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:57 mircea_popescu: are you making the alt juniper or arent you ?
mircea_popescu: and yes, obviously, the problem is tcp connection is stateful, which means memory allocation, and SUCH THINGS (if not necessarily just that thing). ☟︎
BingoBoingo: And when optimizing for torque you're going to make a Yamaha tw200 at some point where 1st gear can't safely be used on paved roads
BingoBoingo: The solution to reduce mortality with max torque is follow everyone else. Tap down past neutral for first gear, but in practice on the road start by tapping up to second gear.
mircea_popescu: poor gigi chick.
mircea_popescu: not that bikini is exactly "risque", but it does take some mettle.
BingoBoingo: Seriously. If it wasn't a solo hike I'd rent out my body heat for a share of the patreon beta bucks
mircea_popescu: so fucking stupid, solo in bikini. why the fuck even, shit's invented to be with others.
mircea_popescu: if you're solo why even bother, go nude.
BingoBoingo: Apparently -10 celcius which means nudity, second body, and a sleeping bag makes things survivable. Add butter to buy more time.
mircea_popescu: kinda the problem of social media 30-something year old "career woman" : solitude, to death.
mircea_popescu: "The only reason "high speed" connections to a "global" internet works at residential price points is because they don't have to." << keks.
mircea_popescu: same exact reason everything else in the femstate "works".
mircea_popescu: dnc also works for as long as it doesn'thave to, and god knows the us army is built on that doctrine.
BingoBoingo: 30 year old woman can't social. US tard can't put the concept of internet route in head
BingoBoingo suspects the speed of inter US ip traffic is as good a reason as any to route around US
BingoBoingo: And yes, every contact still in Vzla has been warned shit can go from sucking to really sucking if NATO columbia and new empire Brasil halps USG.Blue in the triple team after Maduro sinks arecraft carriers with missile he bought not feeding losers
BingoBoingo disappointed the very law abiding bias of latino rebels
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: the problem is, cartels not particularly impressed with usg these days. all was needed to keep assad in power was russia, but a colombia-venezuela-mexico wondertriangle is a lot easier defended. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: The Chileans will probably get the worst of it in the end
BingoBoingo: Not to mention Columbia.Nato.USG is a pop song, Vzla is south america, and Paraguay of all fucks is Mexico's competition for dubious honor of #1 weed exporter
BingoBoingo: The world's a ham and this butcher's string is nitrocellulose. But forget the bang, the fact it can't hold tension is the pressing concern.
BingoBoingo: Holy shit the world looks different outside the wire
BingoBoingo suspects mircea_popescu did not dollar vigilante to Santiago for reasons, but holy fuckballs the average Argentine seems to offer more than Chile's best
BingoBoingo: Sure Chileñas are pretty and far more eager, but need drives the eager
BingoBoingo to sleep, very important batalla de costillas mañana
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889096 << nah, it loses for reasons unrelated to bw. was given as example of geographically-long link with ok bw simply. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 06:57 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: how does it cache the e.g. tB of rng i happen to generate in racked box in jp and dload via ssh ? << I will say that this does suggest .jp s a candidate for Pzarro rack 2 when that time comes
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889097 << with engine, you can compute the efficiency ( joules out / joules in ) and even get ~exact estimate of how much useful work engine of particular size will do. but with shitware.. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 07:13 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889040 << this is entirely besides the point. yes with 256 mb it can serve more simultaneously than with 64, but that's all the difference. the fact that a larger engine puts out more torque than a smaller engine isn't proof positive of "something fundamentally wrong with carnot cycles"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889099 << i daren't to 'do something about it' until properly understood the problem. sorta like didnt dare to attempt trb in 2013, or ffa in 2015, etc ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 07:15 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889061 << this principle may be interesting in principle ; but in practice you refused to do anything about it, as per that whole http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847524 ; one's stuck concluding that there's more to the principle than the principle.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889102 << exactly, not only this. potentially also other items, in re which still working through 'rtfm'. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 07:16 mircea_popescu: and yes, obviously, the problem is tcp connection is stateful, which means memory allocation, and SUCH THINGS (if not necessarily just that thing).
asciilifeform: for that matter, mircea_popescu already described how to do proper routing -- gossipd.
asciilifeform: ( with a working gossipd -- the ordinary net becomes less interesting, can treat it as a lossy channel like radio.. )
asciilifeform: upstack to apache -- half a million loc of C is still half a million loc of C , even if by all appearances 'works solidly for yrs' ☟︎
diana_coman: C/CPP also known as "half a million"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is in principle possible to write 'fits in head' c proggy, but afaik the last who knew how was d. ritchie..
asciilifeform: in '75
diana_coman: empirically-known then ; to account for the theoretical possibility
asciilifeform: diana_coman: a proggy is an 'ideal object', almost anyffin, within obv limits of algo complexity is 'possible'. but in actual practice 'notation is worth 80+/-iq' and some notations make folx into effectively downs syndrome sufferers when the # of moving parts crosses certain threshold
asciilifeform: c appears to be one of these.
diana_coman: myeah, at best it doesn't ...scale
diana_coman: but I'm not even sure it's that really - more a sort of anti-tool in that it unloads complexity on the user to deal with rather than anything
asciilifeform: verily. by ritchie's own words, c is moar of a macroassembler than prog lang in the customary sense of the term ☟︎
asciilifeform: if you want bounds checks, gotta put them explicitly, if want something like sane treatment of memory, ditto, yer proggy will have ten tonnes of explicit memory management crapola in it ( which had better contain 0 mistake, because the lang happily ignores mistake and demolishes houses, cars, dogs, as it bulldozes into random direction) etc
diana_coman: quite; anyways, now that I have on eulora server c,cpp and ada together, it's a whole new level of madness
asciilifeform: oh hm i thought diana_coman were baking client nowadays ☟︎
diana_coman: aaaand in unrelated news: it's SNOWING! ha! england will soon stop to a halt for there is 1mm of snow on the ground!
diana_coman: asciilifeform, kind of both ends at the same time because it's a communication protocol so..
asciilifeform: diana_coman: we had some decent snow here in swampistan also ( and for 1st time in coupla yrs.. )
diana_coman: even nice, huge, fluffy snowflakes, quite winter-like for once
asciilifeform: neato.
asciilifeform likes snow.
diana_coman: metoo
diana_coman: for about 3 months per year I like it; then I want about 3 months per year of hot sun too; and preferably also 3 months of autumn at least; kind of tall order nowadays
diana_coman: re client/server: client is ALSO cpp+ada at the very least
asciilifeform: i recall.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: iirc you got static linker to work ?
diana_coman: yes! I can link it static, I can link it dynamically, I can even build it all as a monolithic piece
diana_coman: pretty much all ways tried and can be done
asciilifeform: and with the elaborator init ?
diana_coman: well yes, it has to: if separate lib (either static or dynamic) it'll have to call libnameinit otherwise the adainit
diana_coman: both ways work fine
diana_coman: basically "standalone" lib includes the init and exposes it
diana_coman: if encapsulated too then it has to be dynamic but if not "encapsulated" then it can be static (and you need to link the ada libs with main proggy too)
asciilifeform looks fwd to studying diana_coman's example proggy
diana_coman: it was more of a confusion/mess rather than real problem as such ☟︎
asciilifeform: potentially cures my mmap headache from summer
diana_coman: what was the mmap headache?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-16#1873099 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-16 23:13 asciilifeform: it is on hold pending resolution of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866266 ( and is taking back seat to ffa currently )
asciilifeform: err, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866266 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:14 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in gnat bugs : apparently ( and this is documented or mentioned nowhere ) : it is impossible to have a Ada.Finalization.Limited_Controlled type ANYWHERE inside a static library, unless it is generic all the way down (i.e. if the lib package is generic, any sub-packages must also be instantiated as generics )
diana_coman: hm, I did not have to look into this specifically
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i guess you didnt need limited_controlled in your item
diana_coman: no, not needed (or not *yet*)
asciilifeform: the only case i discovered so far that demands it, is mmap ( the map ~must~ know when it is about to go out of scope ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( 'the mmap thing', for thrd completeness, is described here - http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-16#1873101 . a variant of 'horsecocks' without rampant pointerism.) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-16 23:13 asciilifeform: phf: the 'horsecocks' one requires pointerism to be enabled; the new one does not
asciilifeform: it is actually a complete proggy, correct per the ada standard, but currently doesnt build on acct of the gnat bug described in the linked thread.
asciilifeform: ( when built as standalone, rather than lib, it builds and functions as specified)
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what do you mean by "build as standalone"?
asciilifeform: with a main
diana_coman: hm; earlier I used "standalone" as "standalone lib" because there is such a thing: it means precisely that it includes ada run-time
asciilifeform: a
diana_coman: but so uhm, it builds with a main fine but it fails if you try to build it as a lib - why?
diana_coman: it sounds very weird
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the breakage is documented in the linked thread. it ends up shitting out a reference to an undefined symbol ( of meaningless numeric name ) on which linker then chokes.
asciilifeform: i sawed on it for some weeks then, but only additional find was that any attempt at using controlled_limited from inside a static lib gave same effect.
asciilifeform: note that mmap is not a front burner item currently for asciilifeform - i dun need it in ffa, will come back to it after.
asciilifeform: but i suspect it's curable via diana_coman's recent method.
diana_coman: I suppose you can at least try and check whether standalone static might cure it, though still weird
diana_coman went and re-read the thread
diana_coman: anyways, I'll go and dig into the comms protocol some more
asciilifeform: diana_coman: unless you desperately need mmap in your own proggy, i recommend not to bother with it nao
asciilifeform: when i have a free hand or 2, i'ma apply diana_coman's published method to the thing and see whether cured.
asciilifeform: and then genesis.
diana_coman: atm hands full so indeed, won't be able to do anything about it anyway
asciilifeform: right
asciilifeform: ftr i also do not yet know why the variant where 100% of the lib is genericised, worked
asciilifeform: ( i hesitate to use genericism at all until i properly grasp how the fuck it worx )
asciilifeform: may recall, 1st draft of ffa used genericism, i removed it
asciilifeform: ( because did not fully grasp how it behaves )
asciilifeform: ( ftr the only application in asciilifeform's pipeline for mmapism currently is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-21#1888650 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-21 00:07 asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's o(1) tx indexer ( will be welded to an experimental bdb once i get the mmap thing resolved ) there's a 2-level storage -- a 'write-once' o(1) index for blox of age N ( N can be 100-500 in practice ), and a much smaller rewritable one kept strictly in ram ( for 'recent' blox, where the longest chain is potentially movable )
asciilifeform: s/bdb/trb in above
asciilifeform: iirc phf attempted also to use it, to make a framebuffer driver in ada, but i dun recall if he ever returned with output
asciilifeform: ( i think he is stuck in some meatspace limbo just nao )
asciilifeform: !#seen phf
a111: 2019-01-09 <phf> http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885092 << i have a couple and the first one i bought i think had that issue, i didn't bother replacing it, and after first cleaning i believe it went away, or possibly i stopped noticing. the one at my office definitely has clean clicks on all they keys, so if it bothers you perhaps worth replacing
asciilifeform: as for asciilifeform currently , sweating out a proper proof of correctness for m-r . ( subj of ch. 16 ). after that, will remain to add iteration to ffacalc; then , keccak.
asciilifeform: ( re why, see in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-05#1884680 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-05 15:34 mircea_popescu: why does it need keccak ?
asciilifeform brb,teatime
jurov: !!v DBC0672930F65FD0885D4549BE150059A31EE2CBD31ACB12B81E02B6F5779D09
asciilifeform: meanwhile, among the kipling aficionados , http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2892&cpage=1#comment-19779
shinohai: To no one's surprise: http://archive.is/ZUyaI
asciilifeform: lol, there's 1 of these erry other month or so
asciilifeform: ok , having read this, i gotta laff, this is yet-another 'oh noez doesn't use usg.pki like inca commanded' 'bug' ☟︎
asciilifeform: it aint a bug. the bug is in the brain of whoever installs that os, where there is no user-controlled wot mechanism.
asciilifeform: https://httpd.apache.org/security/vulnerabilities_24.html << related lulz.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889130 << the numbers are right there, what. so-and-so mp's box does so and so requests. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 14:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889097 << with engine, you can compute the efficiency ( joules out / joules in ) and even get ~exact estimate of how much useful work engine of particular size will do. but with shitware..
asciilifeform: lol this begins to resemble the emacs thrd, but with asciilifeform & mircea_popescu switched chairs
asciilifeform: 'hands off my beloved 20yo softs! they work!'
mircea_popescu: yea, here's how they resemble : 1. "why are you wearing that old rag ?" "it's pretty" "maybe it was" "same difference" "mkay" vs 2. "why are you using that old math ?" "itworks" "maybe it did" "also". 1===2~!!!1111
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i promise to come back to the item laters, when have with what to illustrate.
mircea_popescu: np.
asciilifeform: speaking of old maffs, turns out there's at least 11 classic proofs of fermat's 'little' theorem, incl. a combinatorial one.
asciilifeform: ( it's the motor that powers e.g. m-r , and also underpins the proof that rsa pub:priv pairing is unique )
asciilifeform: ( fermat himself, funnily enuff , and in his usual habit -- never gave even 1 )
asciilifeform: meanwhile in sneakpreviews, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/sY0Xm/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ( alert reader will notice, it is based on http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch15/fz_measr__adb.htm#29_13 )
mircea_popescu: the fucking insanity, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-21#1882561 ; the particular apache running trilema has ~never~ crashed. nor do i expect it ever will ; nor can i conceive how the fuck "it's open to all comers on a net interface" can even begin to be equated with "it's facing me and my keyboard and that's all". you're not ~trying~ to fucking crash emacs, are you ? on the fucking contrary, which is the ~exact contrary~ of w ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-12-21 17:01 asciilifeform: for instance, asciilifeform has '9000' processes on this and other boxen, where uses 'screen+bash+etc for tards' even though theoretically 'could emacs' ( see also e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-03#1869024 ) , because they ~must not crash~ and emacs is unthreaded and hosable
mircea_popescu: hat can be said of the interweb at large.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw mine never crashed either.
asciilifeform: ( which is moar than can be said for, e.g., linux kernel )
mircea_popescu: linux kernel has a gash in itself, where "it gotta work with firmware" or "modules" or w/e the crap. 99+% percent of the time kernel crashed it wasn't the fucking kernel.
mircea_popescu: and even taking the epsilon% remaining, 99+% of when THAT crashed it was because fucking drepper & co "upgraded" some shit.
asciilifeform: it's, what, 99+% modulism by mass
asciilifeform: nao tbf could even make same observation re emacs ( it's never the 1970s c core that bombs, always extension script that hangs ) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: kernel, the functional core of it anyways, upon which all these entirely worthless http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-21#1888849 slash http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-17#1887990 attention whores are hoping to base their wholly imaginary "careers" and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-07#1885512 etc, is about same vintage and about same quality as apache. ☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-21 15:48 mircea_popescu: oh, and, of course : "Latest activity PetiteGoddess21 posted a journal entry on her profile titled “ill sell whatever you want”: about 10 hours ago I'll sell whatever you want ;) ( including videos, pics ,sexting, etc) if got all types of cloths for sale and request how you want them and how many days worn you want I'll also include a video of me playing in them , using them or anything else ... continue reading → "
a111: Logged on 2019-01-17 06:41 mircea_popescu: The apparent murder of journalist Ahmed Divela is chilling. Ghana is recognized by many, including me, as a vibrant, strong democracy and an example for the continent in many ways. " meanwhile in related lulz.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-07 19:29 mircea_popescu: i suppose in this the model breaks down, with the advent of pseudo"technology", the shy withdrawing type can "HackerCombat LLC is a news site, which acts as a source of information for IT security professionals across the world. We have lived it for more than 1 year since 2017, sharing IT expert guidance and insight, [...] " bla bla bla all day long.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
mircea_popescu: so i suppose ~in that limited sense~ it can be said "same thing". but it is limited enough for the alternation of seats to be in the end not surprising but rather to be expected.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in each item's case, i'm interested in what's ~beneath~ the fungus
asciilifeform: ( if you look only at the top of the fungus, nothing at all is visible but fungus )
mircea_popescu: yes, well, if you look at it functionally, apache (however scraped of fungus) is the reason can even read trilema today.
asciilifeform: it's afaik the only currently working http spitter.
asciilifeform: ( general-purpose one, at any rate )
mircea_popescu: seems to be converging that way.
asciilifeform: ( exactly as gcc is the only presently-working general-purpose c compiler, etc )
mircea_popescu: yeah. specifically 4.x or w/e it was.
asciilifeform: 4.9 was afaik last one pre-leprosy.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.biz/2019-01-17.log.html#t11:21:38 << concretes.
lobbesbot: Logged on 2019-01-17 11:21:38: <requiemzz> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/QvdQb/?raw=true
asciilifeform: btw does mircea_popescu have a apache tarball to sign ('as found') and share for cuntoo etc, a la gpg-1.4 ?
mircea_popescu: fuck me.
mircea_popescu: i don't even remember ~when~ i last compiled apache.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see if you can dig up a favourite, plox, when you get chance
mircea_popescu: and the bitch of it is, very widely configurable thing, and without proper configuration... well, it's ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-04#1820583 problem. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-04 17:32 asciilifeform: junkyard wars (e.g. trb, mp-wp) where one is stuck welding a tank from 5 zaporozhets and 3 lada carcasses, because that's what there is to work with, inevitably are heavyweight
asciilifeform: indeed is. would still like to have a historical one tho.
mircea_popescu: item as pristine out of box has a dozen or so dimensions and subdimensions that hafta be fit into place, it's not ~really~ pret a porter (chiefly because one selling "all purpose cloth" can't sell it pre-cut)
asciilifeform: then can at least begin to enumerate the possible knobs.
asciilifeform: right nao errybody got a diff set of knobs, tower of babel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ima think on this
asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: but i am discouraged by the result of the training exercise for this matter, where apparently in spite of attempts to standardize the infinitely more complex mp-wp, the result was similarly tower of bable.
mircea_popescu: that was my preferred angle to approach this problem, and so far we're in 2019 working on mid-2017 tasks.
asciilifeform: i suspect that nailing down the stack ~bottom first~ would help.
mircea_popescu: i do not.
asciilifeform: right nao errybody has slightly variant apache, php, etc
mircea_popescu: i suspect having people well experienced in such things with toy buttons first is the way to go.
mircea_popescu: (and i mean infinitely ~LESS~ complex, if it's not evident)
asciilifeform: asciilifeform is prolly the farthest thing possible from an expert wwwist, if that wasn't already obvious. so cannot presume to say how.
asciilifeform: but imho standardizing the pile of ??? can't possibly hurt.
mircea_popescu: well if nothing else, we have to put something into eventual cuntoo downstream, along with db and so on.
asciilifeform: e.g. trb , grew from acorn of tarball supplied by mircea_popescu in '14.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889134 << the discussion died (i have no doubt under exact same "gotta rsfm" pressure), but we were talking 2016ish about needing own protocol (meanwhile in practice eulora is trying udp and that may even prove sufficient, eg). but yes, tmsr router obviously premature. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 14:20 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889102 << exactly, not only this. potentially also other items, in re which still working through 'rtfm'.
asciilifeform: ( mass-wise, apache is considerably closer to the mass of e.g. gcc, than trb ; but on other hand seems to need less massage as it is, as mircea_popescu fond of pointing out, it largely worx )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun like to 'power ranger' ( as you called it in old essay ) a problem.
mircea_popescu: i do not know exactly why, but both in case of mysql and apache, the cocksuckers ( http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-21#1888849 slash http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-17#1887990 items from before, and may it never be forgotten what they EXACTLY ARE) got sent packing to "make their own" that nobody gave a shit about. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-21 15:48 mircea_popescu: oh, and, of course : "Latest activity PetiteGoddess21 posted a journal entry on her profile titled “ill sell whatever you want”: about 10 hours ago I'll sell whatever you want ;) ( including videos, pics ,sexting, etc) if got all types of cloths for sale and request how you want them and how many days worn you want I'll also include a video of me playing in them , using them or anything else ... continue reading → "
a111: Logged on 2019-01-17 06:41 mircea_popescu: The apparent murder of journalist Ahmed Divela is chilling. Ghana is recognized by many, including me, as a vibrant, strong democracy and an example for the continent in many ways. " meanwhile in related lulz.
mircea_popescu: ceterum autem censeo, there's no fucking difference between random "career" whore and random cam whore. they're the exact same identical physical item.
asciilifeform: perfectly-spherical whores tho, with no holes, camwhore without cam, software whore without software, in keeping with 'fish counter where we have no fish to sell'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889138 << there is no absolute guarantee the solution to a problem you come up with is going to be shorter than a number you like. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 14:29 asciilifeform: upstack to apache -- half a million loc of C is still half a million loc of C , even if by all appearances 'works solidly for yrs'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: indeed
mircea_popescu: consider the item i was discussing with the girls last nigyht over coffees : there ~are~ rules for divisibility of integers for ~any~ integer, not just 2 or 3 or 5 or 9.
mircea_popescu: HOWEVER, the ~complexity of their statement~ grows faster than the benefits.
mircea_popescu: obviously it's ~extremely advantageous~ to know that "the number two quintillion quadrillion one is nevertheless divisible by 3".
asciilifeform: depends on 'benefits' neh. you can express any 'divisibility test' as a gcd with fixed param.
mircea_popescu: but knowing the rule for a number being divisible by 119 is comparatively less easy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i mean in the traditional school of digit manipulation.
asciilifeform: aa
mircea_popescu: there ~necessarily can exist such rules~ for ~any arbitrary prime~
mircea_popescu: there's no rule they're short enough you'd consider them fit in head.
asciilifeform: the rule will include a constant, and that constant is at most as big as the prime itself
asciilifeform: ( see the gcd example. )
mircea_popescu: (and there's also no rule the domain-extensions of "simple arithmetic" they require would be deemed comprehensible by chtulhu)
asciilifeform: all of this is entirely troo. i'm not yet aware of any cthulhu-grade maffs in www server tho.
mircea_popescu: nor of any god-made promise going "a www server you'd care to use can be made in less than x lines of y".
asciilifeform: certainly not.
mircea_popescu: so in truth we dunno, and as of yet we're not in a splendid position to guess yet, either.
asciilifeform: all i know so far is that ditching c (esp. pointerism & heapism aspects) saves massive loc for given problem. but cannot quantify exactly what this means in re www servers.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: but in the end, what's the rush even. trilema didn't croak yest, and so here we are, can focus on other things.
asciilifeform: no rush.
asciilifeform: there's a pile of soft that's actually gravely braindamaged, that needs replacement before ever get to www server.
mircea_popescu: but imo, the "number is divisible by two if last digit is divisible by two ; number is divisible by three if sum of digits is divisible by three ; number is divisible by five if last digit is divisible by five ; number is..." series is an EXCEPTIONALLY great model for the problem of "write software". because it is an ~ordered~ list of ~programs~, by its very nature. ordered ~by an implicit order of the problems~. and the resu
mircea_popescu: lting "code" has varying lengths.
mircea_popescu: in a sense, this is ~as much as we presently know~ of a ~perfect v tree".
mircea_popescu: ie, one that has resolved the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-28#1883605 problem very strictly : "for this language, there is no better code" ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-12-28 17:15 mircea_popescu: seems to me the unspoken heuristic is, "large enough so it's not meaningful [and therefore large enough to not bother] and small enough so it's not larger than some other number i thought about".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the length of the 'coad' is a function of your working base.
mircea_popescu: i can relaxedly put a temperature of 0 on the coupling between the string "number is divisible by two if last digit is divisible by two" and the respective index in the problem stair.
mircea_popescu: ie, it's pefect code for once.
asciilifeform: arithmetic is indeed closest anybody'll ever see to 'perfect code'
mircea_popescu: none of this is to in any way dispute (or even refer to) the very practical, low-fruit-grasping, "lotta code out there is so fucking stupid, just washing hands halves it".
mircea_popescu: this is going rather at the other end of things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but notice how "arithmetic" does not have a very great substance. the reason people like eg euler is very much in the vein of that http://trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/#selection-83.0-119.187 old "science == society game" model of science :
mircea_popescu: i can ~also~ very relaxedly put a temperature of 0 on "to find out the sum of integers up to a limit, write them twice, once going left, once going right, sum the units and divide by two".
mircea_popescu: the task itself is both banal and uninteresting, the solution lives forever in the annals of humanity in the proper sense of that term no "because it's short" but specifically because "it\s so evidently zero kelvin".
asciilifeform: well yes , it aint euler who puts the 0 in the temperature
mircea_popescu: and the fascination of all the old "olympiad problems" in the books, fly-between-trains, what have you, is specifically this : "get people to come up with very COOL!!!! solutions"
asciilifeform: but you, when you eat a proof, and it actually goes in yer head
asciilifeform: only then can say 'temperature 0'.
mircea_popescu: which is why cambridge tripos went exactly nowhere on a large wooden spoon : "mathematical athleticism" is not mathematical anymore than the counting horse is.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there's quite a few ( or at least in asciilifeform's time, were ) 'olympiad' problems which are simply chinese-style 'do you know the classics' masquerading as olympiad problems
asciilifeform: typical example is all the crud where it asks you for the last digit of a heavy exponent
mircea_popescu: which is precisely the scar tissue of usg-ification of sovok.
asciilifeform: ( these are trivial if you know fermat )
asciilifeform: ( see also ancient lulzthread, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-21#930306 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-11-21 01:48 asciilifeform: 'This is a special collection of problems that were given to select applicants during oral entrance exams to the math department of Moscow State University. These problems were designed to prevent Jewish people and other undesirables from getting a passing grade. Among problems that were used by the department to blackball unwanted candidate students, these problems are distinguished by having a simple solution
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform part of the lulz of ye olde physics olympiad in mp\s native lands and times was "identify the problem type". lotta ~fundamentally illiterate~ (hey, they liked "science", can't possibly think fiction, doh!!!) profs tryina come up with ~convincing~ "and then she said...".
mircea_popescu: failing so remarkably spectacularly the only remarkable part is nobody remarked upon it until 2019 rolled around in teh republic.
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's still disqualified, i didn't state it in romanian.
asciilifeform: btw that b00k was prolly the best , imho, known collection of olympiad problems
asciilifeform: pretty much no others are worth anyffin
asciilifeform: imho the 'cheat' was that they ~only~ fed'em to 'undesirables'. should've fed to ~errybody~
mircea_popescu: but back to our topic : there STILL IS a marked difference between http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-18#1863581 intelligent an' smart. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 18:59 mircea_popescu: 90% of the time i try to read something, the attempt fails ; and almost always it is because the author is insulting my smarts, not my intelligence. they're all such intelligent men, from sf writers to hayek to what have you. the problem is that they're not smart.
mircea_popescu weeps for whosoever is gonna try to summarize today's log sometime. by now the simple mechanics of log linking have created an actual programming language, by the time one's done unpacking the context and unwrapping the meaning, the sun will likely be down. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: anyway, but "learn fermat -- apply when last digit of exponent" list of ~fiction tropes~ is nothing more than that : teaching kids how to "know the tells" of the (again -- remarkably fucking inept) "he liked science" illiterate storyteller.
mircea_popescu: in short, mathematical (and to a large degree scientific, viz physics etc) education in the warsaw pact place-and-time degenerated into a trope of fiction. which is why "science fiction" was so loved in those parts of the world as opposed to anywhere else.
asciilifeform: fwiw when asciilifeform , not even in teen yrs yet, lost interest in olympiads, this was why. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: a type not a trope of fiction.
asciilifeform: ( didn't particularly relish memorizing chess debuts, either ) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: right ?
mircea_popescu: kinda what sours the thinking man of chess : "dude, your metagame utterly ruins the fiction the game purports to render -- specifically because the word "gambit" exists in your language it CAN NOT be the case this is a story of war and civilisation"
asciilifeform: aka 'exam taking'
asciilifeform: e.g. chess, died imho long before mechanized with machine. killed by 'debut books' , a kind of meat-powered alphago death.
mircea_popescu: in the end, "the smart don't like the intelligent" is the exact male equiv of ye female http://trilema.com/2016/the-pedoepiphany/ ; or in the immortal words of http://trilema.com/2014/millers-crossing/ " You are so goddamn smart. Except you ain't. I get you, smart guy. I know what you are. Straight as a corkscrew. Mr. Inside-Outski, like some goddamn Bolshevik picking up his orders from Yegg Central. You think you're so godda
mircea_popescu: mn smart. You join up with Johnny Caspar, you bump Bernie Bernbaum. Up is down. Black is white. Well, I think you're half smart. I think you were straight with your frail, I think you were queer with Johnny Caspar... and I think you'd sooner join a ladies' league than gun a guy down. Then I hear from these two geniuses they never even saw this rub-out take place. "
asciilifeform: anyffin at all risks to stop being interesting to thinking folx, when it turns into a contest of who memorized moar trivia from encyclopaedia.
asciilifeform: !#s хуй с винтом
a111: 0 results for "хуй с винтом", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D1%85%D1%83%D0%B9%20%D1%81%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC
asciilifeform: hm.
asciilifeform: !#s на хитрую жопу
a111: 1 result for "на хитрую жопу", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D1%8E%20%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%83
asciilifeform: there.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-31#1838410 < subj ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-31 16:23 asciilifeform: 'на каждую хитрую жопу, всегда найдется свой болт с резьбой'(tm)(r)(proverb)
mircea_popescu: a whole raft of "dad didn't much care for arthur blair snif sniff" is readily explained by the model "dad got smart with age, kiddo was born intelligent."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remarkable how the corkscrew is a recurring object in any discussion of this gap.
asciilifeform: indeed
asciilifeform: or recall the scytale thing ( 'original rsa' )
asciilifeform: the ancients built locks where one needed just-so screw thread to open. and we're sorta still doing this.
mircea_popescu: i suppose.
asciilifeform: even in 1st grade, it was obv who were the kids who liked to think, and who 'memorize encyclopaedia' to lick arses of elders, the little shits, the kanzures.
asciilifeform: what were the latter called on mircea_popescu's home planet, iirc , tocilarii ?
mircea_popescu: yep
mircea_popescu: dude, your romanian's by now scary, what, you keep these words in a special museum of hate or something ?
mircea_popescu: "alf knows how to say these 5 things he can't stand in all languages that exist or existed".
mircea_popescu: come to think of it not a bad approach...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i read buncha trilema, lolwat.
mircea_popescu: well more power to you
asciilifeform: ftr it's a ru cognate (1 of the rare genuine ones, vs. 'truda' etc ) . точило == grinding wheel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i currently suspect that all langs on planet3, living and extinct, have term for 'anal child'. it's a reasonably common bio-failuremode, like schizo etc.
asciilifeform: not always will find it in dictionaries. but surely exists.
mircea_popescu: quite possibru
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform certified genuine cognate ; ro word for "we sharpen knives and scythes and whatnot" shop is "tocilarie"
mircea_popescu: a toci = to wear down (generally through use), cutit tocit = dull knife
mircea_popescu: !1help
feedbot: Usage: !1 {subscribe,unsubscribe} feed_url
mircea_popescu: spyked is there a way for one to list what rss he's subscribed with feedbot ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889147 << this is actually surprisingly apt. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 14:58 asciilifeform: verily. by ritchie's own words, c is moar of a macroassembler than prog lang in the customary sense of the term
mircea_popescu: was very useful, up until registers went 32 bit. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889150 << there's no way to have a rsa-aware client without the corresponding server, yes ? it's a whole migration, just, i was hoping she'd only have to do the server side, was the point of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-05#1884608 comment. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 15:02 asciilifeform: oh hm i thought diana_coman were baking client nowadays
a111: Logged on 2019-01-05 14:16 mircea_popescu: diana_coman is working for s.mg ; we've recently had this exact talk and revised our plans. originally the idea was to have moved over to cuntoo, and do support work for community-driven effort at a new client. the latter completely collapsed over the shocking weakness of such community ; the former's at best delayed.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889170 << yeah, that resolution was actually in the "unexpected good news" category. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 15:11 diana_coman: it was more of a confusion/mess rather than real problem as such
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889353 << Trying to find "news" today I see nothing outside the log that isn't eclipsed by the log in importance ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 19:23 mircea_popescu weeps for whosoever is gonna try to summarize today's log sometime. by now the simple mechanics of log linking have created an actual programming language, by the time one's done unpacking the context and unwrapping the meaning, the sun will likely be down.
mircea_popescu: well, watching the outside world is a little like watching middle class tweens "fighting" on the playground. lotta shoving, lotta posturing and "threatening" behaviour. lotta talk, jack shit to get excited over.
BingoBoingo: Every now an then there's inflection points. Someone during the posturing knocks over some other dork's drink, etc
BingoBoingo: Posturing interrupted by flying rock from neaby bum fight
mircea_popescu: just aboot.
BingoBoingo: Since the weekend the English Press Pantsuits have been demonizing, hedging their demonizing, and redirecting their shit over some white boy from Ohio who dared to smile
mircea_popescu: sounds like a helluva subject.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889399 << machine bitness had ~0 to do with it; was ~useful until folx decided to write 'half mil' line proggies in it. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 20:12 mircea_popescu: was very useful, up until registers went 32 bit.
asciilifeform: like all kludges, comes apart when you stand up nontrivial weight on it.
mircea_popescu: machine bitness has everything to do with it -- 16 bit machine only accesses memory you can fit in head.
mircea_popescu: thus you don't really want a compiler as much as you want a (very narrowly) meta-assembler.
mircea_popescu: back in 8 bit days we all worked in asm anyways! no c. why no c ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even ye olde pdp, addressed 512kB+
mircea_popescu: it's niche was 16 bit regs.
asciilifeform: dawn of c pre-dates the toy micro.
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: ( the toy micro, in fact, saw very little c in the '80s )
asciilifeform: ftr, i never had a c compiler on my c64
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja have 1 on yer jupiter or what was that ro z80 thing
mircea_popescu: nope.
asciilifeform: for same reason.
mircea_popescu: spectrum ?
asciilifeform: spectrum clone aha
asciilifeform: i fughet what it was called
mircea_popescu: yes. which is what i'm saying, c was useful pre 32bit regs.
mircea_popescu: !#s "tim-s"
a111: 13 results for "\"tim-s\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22tim-s%22
asciilifeform: aa
mircea_popescu: !#s "hc-8"
a111: 2 results for "\"hc-8\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22hc-8%22
asciilifeform: not so many folx actually felt need for c or other compiler/macroasm on 16-64k micros tho.
mircea_popescu: 64k mem is 8 bit machine. you work in asm there.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform brb,teatime
mircea_popescu: 2mb mem is 16 bit machine. you ~can~ work in asm theree too, but ideally you want some support. the prevailing meta-assembler was called c
mircea_popescu: 4gb mem is 32 bit machine. on this horizon, asm and c ~similarily useless.
mircea_popescu: and the problem of "wut use then" is still open, in which context i perceive eg the bolix wank.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 16bit ( barring various 'banking' trickeries ) addresses 2^16 == 64k.
asciilifeform: i dun disagree with (what i think is) mircea_popescu's upstack point, tho, bigger machine gives you bigger wrench to drop on yer foot re complexity.
asciilifeform: esp. when iron is big enuff that folx fall into the sin of perceiving cpu cycles & bytes of ram as 'infinite' and phree
asciilifeform: ( see also e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763155 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 16:05 asciilifeform: but in very unrelated lulz, https://archive.is/bON1p >> 'It’s a bit absurd that a modern gaming machine running at 4,000x the speed of an apple 2, with a CPU that has 500,000x as many transistors (with a GPU that has 2,000,000x as many transistors) can maybe manage the same latency as an apple 2 in very carefully coded applications if we have a monitor with nearly 3x the refresh rate.'
asciilifeform: ( + http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 )
asciilifeform brb,meat systems
mircea_popescu evidently can't carry a discussion on artithetics, even if "general point" wins easy enough.
jurov: !!v 29655BAE7EB994572FCC2E0087E12C247E1CBE3BC1C2C1237740D8F6B52B8A81
deedbot: jurov paid BingoBoingo invoice 6
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889180 << why can;t it be instantiated with knowledge of its size ? ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 15:17 asciilifeform: the only case i discovered so far that demands it, is mmap ( the map ~must~ know when it is about to go out of scope )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889222 << same here. wtf idiocy is this, thin wrapper around "o noes, people who don't like pantsuitism made websites to mock us, NO GOOD". ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 17:17 asciilifeform: ok , having read this, i gotta laff, this is yet-another 'oh noez doesn't use usg.pki like inca commanded' 'bug'
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/01/us-home-sales-hit-a-3-year-low-over-december/ << Qntra -- US Home Sales Hit A 3 Year Low Over December
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2010/pe-ei-pe-mama-lor/ << ever read thgat one, incidentally ? 10 bux tax on fastfood to balance out the externalized costs they dump on health budgets (and to signal to women they'd better drop the act and start cooking daily) ; and 500% excise on windows for stupidity.
asciilifeform: ha, no, hadn't read
asciilifeform: iirc they actually tried the food one in nyc at some pt
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/01/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-october-november-and-december-1714-part-v/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of October, November, and December, 1714. - Part V.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889454 << not only can, but absolutely must, in order to work. issue was re ~scope~, it gotta know its scope. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 21:38 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889180 << why can;t it be instantiated with knowledge of its size ?
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/FR2P7 << didactic example of the biznis-end of that thing.
asciilifeform: observe that 'M' knows when the end of its life comes, and gets synced to disk (if applicable , i.e. was mapped r/w) and properly cleaned up, without any such abortion as a 'free' statement a la c
asciilifeform: this is done with a standard ada feature called 'controlled limited type'. which i found that, for no documented reason, dunwork in gnat's static lib. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ah yes.
asciilifeform: this was a shot at improved (pointerism-free, externally) variant of earlier system 'horsecocks'
asciilifeform: both give you a direct path from a data structure to/from disk.
asciilifeform: lets you have e.g. the trb indexer thing, as ordinary array, etc
asciilifeform: obviates a good number of scenarios where otherwise you'd want to use a db system.
mircea_popescu: i see it now.
asciilifeform: mmap is 1 of the few nice things in linux , lets you e.g. map a 1tb segment and store as file, and will actually 'sparse' store etc.
mircea_popescu: do you see much difference between "controlled limited type" and "promises this is an object with destructor method properly called" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's very similar to cpp 'destructor' aha. with the diff that ada forces various limitations re the item, to prevent various cpp-esque lulz
asciilifeform: ( there's a range of things you aint allowed to do with a controlled type, chiefly to copy it )
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: now the question is, if you only need this specifically once, why do you need ada to do it for you
asciilifeform: cuz theres no way to do it without support from the compiler.
asciilifeform: it gotta actually enforce the 'copying this thing is an eggog', trigger the death procedure when it goes out of scope, etc
asciilifeform: iirc this aint new even, was in ada-83.
asciilifeform: it's a pretty basic lang knob.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu is satisfied.
asciilifeform: how gcc broke it, remains to be sniffed out
asciilifeform: i'ma have to do some serious detective work, when i get a free hand .
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-06#1666647 << the original item, for thread-compleeetness ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 19:40 asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/horsecocks.tar.gz << i dun recall posting this before, so here it will live, for nao : unofficial release of mmaptron
asciilifeform: ^ it -- worx, and as described above, with the diff that it requires pointerism to be enabled.
mircea_popescu: that's quite the diff.
asciilifeform: verily
asciilifeform: i used it to prototype the o(1) tx index thing (also posted, but dun have the logptr handy atm)
asciilifeform: btw, imho it's a good example of 'ffa-style' narrowing of problem domain ( there is no good reason for ancient tx to be rewritable )
asciilifeform: iirc we walked the subj in detail some time in '17
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2009/windows-este-cel-mai-tare/ << via upstack link, lulzy btw
asciilifeform: iirc there's a large collection of these somewhere, bsods photo'd 'in the wild' on bank atm's, etc
mircea_popescu: damn, what is that, windows 95 ?
asciilifeform: loox like... 'xp home'
asciilifeform: ( you can tell by the 'kindergarten' colour palette )
mircea_popescu: o yeah, i recall now! at the time, microshit (panicked no doubt over euro-bureaucracies going linux-ish) was media-buying massively. in ro campaign was "be smart".
mircea_popescu: ie, "be smart" and buy shit.
asciilifeform: lol!
mircea_popescu: you know ?
asciilifeform: i dun recall this slogan appearing in gringolandia-side ads, but reminiscent of crapple's 'think differently' or what was it
mircea_popescu: sometimes i sit here and regret the days i was wriging 2-3-5 articles/day on trilema. then i read one of those, and it's always, "o cute, 1/10 of an article".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect direct theft, tbh.
asciilifeform: come to think of it , i can't recall when last saw a winblowz ad as such
mircea_popescu: they kinda gave up, became abstract "tech" with google an' apple.
asciilifeform: strangely enuff, there are still ads for intel
asciilifeform: largely unrelatedly, today asciilifeform uncrated a spool of 70kV insulating tape, and surprised to discover that it is made with... mastic. y'know, how ~all~ electrician's tape used to be made, in ww2 and prior
asciilifeform: pistacia lentiscus.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re crapple, it's become a rich generator of lulz : their current strategy seems to consist of, per iteration of product : 1) cut an essential component (e.g. headphone jack) , and declare 'fashionable' 2) double price
asciilifeform: can't wait for the logical end of this, when they cut e.g. the screen ( 'why do you need a screen, terrorist. talk to the box with mouth..' ) and eventually will ship a http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 i expect. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: the truth of the matter is that the great clinton dream (it made it even into "primary colors", whereby clinton explains to a group of "worried" workers [worried about the fact that their standards of living are strictly unmaintainable post-imperialism] that their only hope at continuation is through some kind of [unspecified, because unspecifiable] "skill acquiring" -- with all the sweet air of doctor who tells cancer patien
mircea_popescu: t that his only hope at being young again is if he finds the way to shit whole prunes) that yielded the "entrepreneurial" revolution which, in short order, latched upon the imaginary http://trilema.com/2016/files-from-the-war-on-the-web-today-literotica/#selection-393.0-393.767 aka "ugc" as a fuel base to transform into prosperity died sometime since 2001.
asciilifeform: ( already they removed the buttons from pnoje )
mircea_popescu: so nobody seriously perceives the need to even think about such things. advertise microsoft ? to whom and why ? microsoft ~no longer does anything~, it "just is".
mircea_popescu: there was a brief interval, 90s to maybe 2005, when parent might have been even enthusiastic over kid's "entrepreneurship" declarations.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there are some ads that dun even pretend to make sense from commercial pov, and are strictly 'behold the glory of the great inca'. i used to ride the train erry day, it would as often as not be covered in ads for lockheed, grumman, etc, with photo of latest $trillion will-get-stuck-in-erry-canal boat, submarine, etc
mircea_popescu: today seems (outside of orclands, where they're retarded) just on par with what it always was, "suppose you get a real job"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform even in sovok days, advertising on the "government line" of moscow subway was geared thusly.
mircea_popescu: wash dc subways bad sample for this discussion.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sovok 'ads' were typically of 'agit' variety -- stern lenin face with 'lenin bids you to keep yer lathe clean and reduce workplace fatalities' etc
asciilifeform: re microshit 'just is' -- iirc the inflection point was some time in late '90s, when they switched to being fueled entirely by 'os tax' on all konsoomer pc irons, and dispensed with the pretense of 'folx make choice to buy os, in cardboard box'
mircea_popescu never bought whole computer, doth not know, but believes./
asciilifeform: ( today even 'os tax' is paid largely from usg coffers, when they buy tetristrons for the desk jockeys )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you upturn an old lappy, you can see whether it was bought orig in gringolandia, and had the winblowz tax, they stuck little stickers on'em
mircea_popescu: which brings http://trilema.com/2013/the-state-banking-and-bitcoin/ very much to mind.
asciilifeform: exactly like that
asciilifeform: re microshit 'os' in boxes -- seems like they see primary competition currently as being... old versions of own shit. ( recently they demonstratively had a d00d jailed, not even for 'pirated' but for selling at flea markets ~old winblowz~ disks )
asciilifeform: seem to be particularly interested in exterminating 'xp', which was porous & bsody but at least not then included keylogger straight off the install , just yet
mircea_popescu: it's entirely possible current "anti-terrorism" java http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-18#1888222 dun even work on win95. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-18 17:27 mircea_popescu: that they don't do anything in particular should be self-evident, but here's some lulz re "intelligent design" :
asciilifeform: ( current offering -- includes, and not even attempted to hide any moar )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: entirely possible, understaffed monkey house stretched thin and tired of maintaining pills for ancient shitsoft
asciilifeform: already microshit in fact banned iron vendors from shipping drivers for xp for any reason.
asciilifeform: ( under penalty of excommunication )
mircea_popescu: "for security"
mircea_popescu: anyway, meanwhile would-be "ddoser" broke teeth -- anyone with deferred trilemaing is invited to catch up.