log
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mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-29#1875991 <<-->> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-29#1876120 remarkable similarity. i suppose at this point to repeat that "socialism is about hindering the worthy to prop up the unworthy" is too much of a truism. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-29 17:23 asciilifeform: and (at least in asciilifeform's observation) the competent engineer types get to bottle ~sooner~ than the chair warmers.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-29 22:50 asciilifeform: ( observe -- sans agression, the moar reliable is your hosting, the ~more~ certain your noad is to get perma-wedged, as it'll never reboot and never satisfy shitoshi's 'catch up only on cold boot' idjit condition.. )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-29#1876053 << the dependency shitballs are very much the problem though. dragging in all sorts of crap, by the mn loc, including wxwidgets or w/e, not to mention crapossl and so on. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-29 19:10 asciilifeform: ( for comparison: e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680705 ; or, current trb is ~22k loc, ~not~ incl. the dep balls )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-29#1876064 << she has a point. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-29 19:21 diana_coman: asciilifeform, and the loc is not the whole story either; I'd much rather read *your* 1000 loc than Koch's 100 loc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wx liquishit , qt, jettisoned loong ago. but bdb, openssl , boost, remained
mircea_popescu: a right, qt.
mircea_popescu: ~same
asciilifeform: 100x fatter turd mass
asciilifeform: ( than wx were )
asciilifeform: brb
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=96 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 11/15/2018
zx2c4: ahoy
asciilifeform: !#s zx2c4
a111: 218 results for "zx2c4", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=zx2c4
asciilifeform: zx2c4: long time no see. what brings ya back ?
zx2c4: two things
zx2c4: one benign, one bothersome
zx2c4: the first is curosity
zx2c4: the second is wireguard needs funding for 2019 and thought this nation might help carry the weight
zx2c4: also i'm wondering what the usual trilema party line is on rust vs ada
asciilifeform: zx2c4: didnt mircea_popescu send you a coin ?
zx2c4: he did yea
asciilifeform: !#s rust
a111: 205 results for "rust", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=rust
asciilifeform: ^
zx2c4: (reading)
zx2c4: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-10#1654303 haha ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-10 21:29 phf`: i'm rewriting everything that asciilifeform is releasing in Ada in Rust, because it's secure AND modern!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-30#1634699 << summary ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:13 asciilifeform: why would anybody even name a comp lang 'rust' ? how about a surgical antiseptic named 'putrescence' ?
asciilifeform: in all seriousness, i don't even presently know of a more leprous pile of shit, either on pedigree or technical pov.
zx2c4: haha
zx2c4: you dont think the borrow checker eliminates large classes of problems in a performant and somewhat elegant way?
asciilifeform: the what?
zx2c4: rust's ownership and borrow semantics
zx2c4: hey ffa in ada
zx2c4: nice post
asciilifeform: zx2c4: weren't you here last yr for a 'the technical cannot be separated from the political' and 'if program+all accessories doesn't Fit In Head, it is garbage, not proof' thread ?
zx2c4: no i dont think so
zx2c4: presumably the premise is something along the lines of complexity making things impossible?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809389 << prev visit ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 17:23 asciilifeform: zx2c4: as a matter of fact, is IS a conclusion i can jump to trivially. because your supposed 'person' is actually a nameless cockroach beneath my feet. because he is not in the wot, and thereby not distinguishable from the 90000..+ faux 'humans' usg manufactures on daily basis to further its psyops.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: point being, i don't practice haskellism. and nit from being illiterate yokel who has nfi how. it so happens that i know how. but consider the whole approach to be braindamaged .
asciilifeform: and, in parallel, to be an organized campaign of sabotage against ~concept~ of actual correctness in programs.
zx2c4: _organized campaign of sabotage_
zx2c4: that's a much larger accusation
asciilifeform: wtf is the point of 'here's a proof but you need this here 100MB of gnarl to ~run~ it and of course you will trust output, or are you a terrorist'
asciilifeform: proof is proof when it fits in head, now just as in euclid's time.
zx2c4: have you seen HACL*?
zx2c4: https://github.com/project-everest/hacl-star
zx2c4: Kind of an interesting project
zx2c4: They write proofs in F* showing equivalence between some functional description and some imperative description
asciilifeform: have seen
zx2c4: And then they're able to lower the F* down into C
zx2c4: Which is pretty readable
asciilifeform: zx2c4: try to think about what i actually said tho
zx2c4: The proof, however, is gone from the C
zx2c4: Well of course everyone prefers simpler proofs that fit in the head
asciilifeform: if you need a 'proof system' to prove $assertion, you have NOT proven it. not to me.
zx2c4: Simpler code that you can read in a sitting
zx2c4: And so forth
zx2c4: But it turns out now all things are so easily provable as such
zx2c4: Not all math is as simple as Elements
asciilifeform: then they aint proven, basta.
zx2c4: Hasn't writing always been a tool to expand our knowledge / understanding / assurance beyond a single mind?
asciilifeform: not fits in head ? not proven. ( i did not say ~whose~ head, but imho safe to suppose that whole f# microshitiana garbage pail fits in no head )
zx2c4: Write down thoughts from one day, use writings to your benefit the second day, and now you're two people in essence
asciilifeform: zx2c4: theorem that dun fit in any 1 skullcase, aint proven.
asciilifeform: this is a political declaration, not an astronomical observation, zx2c4
zx2c4: Oh, I mean, if you're willing to allow for anybody's head (as i presume you mean by mentioning ~whose~ head), then you just posit an incredible genius
asciilifeform: not enuff to 'posit'
asciilifeform: gotta actually exist ( and 'genius' btw is the fella who makes the 'fit in 1 head' fit in 9000. )
asciilifeform: !#s heaviside
a111: 21 results for "heaviside", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=heaviside
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
zx2c4: I'm not even quite sure what you mean by "fitting"
zx2c4: There are some things I could only prove if I had a paper
asciilifeform: fortunately there is a convenient demo
asciilifeform: ffa. see esp the passage re parachute.
zx2c4: I more or less know the process involved but don't have all of the steps in my head. And as I wrote it down, I forget the details of previously written steps while working out current new steps. Yet I have faith in the process of writing it down systematically and having intermediate results from pages prior
asciilifeform: the statement is quite serious, i and some yet-unknown number of other people will literally bet arse on our grasp of ffa correctness.
asciilifeform: the attribute which permits this approach, vs haskellism and other idolatrous rituals to mechanical molloch, is called 'fits in head'.
zx2c4: > At this time we will walk through the mechanics of our Karatsuba multiplier, so as to cement in the reader’s head the correctness of the routine, and lay groundwork for the optimization which is introduced in Ch. 12B.
zx2c4: Certainly a good pedagogical practice
asciilifeform: let's take from other end of digestive tract. consider 1 AND gate. idealized, no metastability, no breakdown voltages, literally 'ands' two logical values. ( can have physically limited to % of c speed, if you like, but this is uninportant )
asciilifeform: with me so far ?
zx2c4: so this state of "being proven" for you -- it requires some kind of intuitive bullet shot from start to finish of all particulars of a certain logical progression? and any deference of that to outside tools (like paper, or intermediate results with forgotten details) ruin the intuition?
asciilifeform: lemmas ok, paper ok
asciilifeform: so long as in the end it clicks in your crankcase and is as obvious as that and gate.
zx2c4: alright and you'd freely admit that when you write things down and solve intermediate lemmas, its often the case that by the time you get to the end, you don't have in the forefront of your brain the details of all intermediate steps anymore
asciilifeform: grasp obvious in its totality, as in there is literally NO hesitation to strap the thing on and 'if mistake -- any mistake -- i hit cement at terminal velocity'
asciilifeform: zx2c4: i like paper. and even chalk.
asciilifeform: but they are devices for eventually rearranging contents of your head, permanently, rather than substitutes for head,
zx2c4: so perhaps you prefer chalk and slate to paper then
asciilifeform: i sometimes even use computer algebratrons, in exploratory work. but would never consider presenting output straight from one as 'here, correct'
zx2c4: a temporary buffer, rather than a rolling log
zx2c4: sage?
zx2c4: z3?
asciilifeform: 'derive'
asciilifeform: ( on some occasion, also macsyma )
asciilifeform: but is immaterial, next will ask what kinda chalks.
zx2c4: haha, was just curious. i presume you're ancient
asciilifeform: depends how you consider
asciilifeform turns 35 next wk
zx2c4: oh. then derive and macsyma surely are jokes
asciilifeform: deadly serious.
zx2c4 stares
asciilifeform: ( wait till he learns that asciilifeform has a fleet of e.g. dos boxes. )
zx2c4: just install Coq for heavens sake
asciilifeform: or that FUCKGOATS rng is built to speak rs232 at 115200 baud and always will be
asciilifeform: or that ~ nuffing in asciilifeform's machine room postdates '09
zx2c4: hey i like good ol rs232 too
asciilifeform: zx2c4: whole reason i bother with this thread is to explain why no, i would ~not~ like to suck the coq, if you will
zx2c4: I agree with you in spirit -- I think learning details of a proof enough that you have all of it in your head is a good pedagogical approach and gives you more mathematical agility as you progress forward. I just don't know about the ontological statement regarding the proof's validity
asciilifeform: haskellism is like dope for intellectually-bent folx. it is addictive but ultimately ruin.
zx2c4: (coq is from the late 80s. its still in use, but i guess you could use the 2009 version...)
asciilifeform: intellectual bankruptcy.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: lemme ask, on what authority am i to accept the correctness of a proof generated via e.g. coq ?
zx2c4: i can see that critique of haskellism. endless intellectual masturbation (hello trilema?) that doesn't actually drive at any essential truth. there's a particular benefit in demanding truths remain small rather than large
asciilifeform: i have not read src of coq, to do so would take 20yr ( and i dun mean 'skim', but to find total proof of correctness of whole shebang and load into MY head )
zx2c4: well, as it turns out, coq had some amazing fallacy in its core code a few years back resulting in the ability to prove any statement true...
asciilifeform: and i'm to take it seriously after that ? pray tell why ?
zx2c4: it's convenient?
asciilifeform: as it is i have less nausea for even honeopaths than for mecha-proof folks
zx2c4: more seriously, if you're mostly after small computer programs to help you out when exploring a field but eventually do the proof by hand, z3 and sage wind up being super practical as day to day work horses
asciilifeform: homeopaths at least only bamboozle the irredeemably stupid
asciilifeform: zx2c4: you may find it interesting to learn that i once worked in a dour 'salt mine' where shat out 'correctness proof' all day. in 'sage.'
zx2c4: (i learned algebra back in the day from a professor who wrote a haskell program to generate our textbook... presumably in your mind, my foundational education could not be more screwed up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Bayer )
asciilifeform: 'darpa' paid.
asciilifeform: sucked beyond my ability to describe.
zx2c4: z3 is nice for things like
zx2c4: https://xn--4db.cc/ltPtHCKN/py
zx2c4: https://git.zx2c4.com/WireGuard/tree/src/crypto/zinc/poly1305/poly1305-x86_64-glue.c#n72
zx2c4: that z3 script gives a little more assurance we didn't screw up the radix conversion here
asciilifeform: it was a misery. and 'sage' made it ~more~ of misery, if yer gonna commit 'machine proof' atrocities, has no biz doing in a non-homoiconic lang (i.e. any non lisp)
zx2c4: heh
asciilifeform: zx2c4: lemme ask you this -- those mecha-proofs of yours, how much do you actually believe in'em ?
asciilifeform: i.e. wouldja bet life of self, wives, pets, whole clan of yours, on there being no boojum in coq, z3, other claimed brain substitute of the day ?
zx2c4: no. they're mostly just tools
asciilifeform: i'd hope that i dun have to explain that when you write a cryptosystem, you are in fact asking other people to do this.
zx2c4: to do what
asciilifeform: to jump on ~your~ parachute, that you sewed.
zx2c4: oh. yea, as i said, they're mostly just tools
asciilifeform: tools for what ?
zx2c4: an additional check against my feeble human reasoning
asciilifeform: how wouldja describe for what
zx2c4: it also lets me try things super fast without thinking
zx2c4: and then think backwards in order to reason about its correctness later
asciilifeform: so like paper ?
zx2c4: sort of
zx2c4: more efficient paper
asciilifeform: then why do you advertise and publish the 'proofs' ?
zx2c4: huh?
asciilifeform: i dun publish my 'derive' barf
asciilifeform: or chalk board contents
zx2c4: i think in crypto most people refer to it as "verification"
zx2c4: rather than proof
asciilifeform: whereas 'here is my z3 proof' is typically published for cachet among haskellist co-religionists
zx2c4: i save my z3 script so that
zx2c4: later if im changing the code
zx2c4: in addition to reasoning about it
zx2c4: i can quickly re-check my work
asciilifeform: it dun verify jack shit. is machine barf. just like the raw output of your compiler, except less meaningful
zx2c4: make sure i didnt so something immediately dumb
asciilifeform: if you can follow the proof by hand
zx2c4: in the example above, its pretty easy to prove that by hand
asciilifeform: can you, for the one for that routine you linked ?
asciilifeform: how much does it weigh ?
zx2c4: it's not bad at all
zx2c4: its a radix conversion
zx2c4: highschool contest math
asciilifeform: lessee the proof ?
zx2c4: fair enough
asciilifeform: what i see in the link, is a buncha c code, with pointerisms
asciilifeform: does your proof demonstrate that none of them can overflow, regardless of what happens , say ?
zx2c4: right. shows that the carrys work out without overflows given certain bounds on the input
asciilifeform: ... or that the #define ULT(a, b) ((a ^ ((a ^ b) | ((a - b) ^ b))) >> (sizeof(a) * 8 - 1)) macro dun turn to barf in the preprocessor on acct of some esoteric beard shaving from dennis richie ?
asciilifeform: and i could continue..
zx2c4: "unsigned less than"
zx2c4: dennis probably wants those variables surrounded by ( )
asciilifeform: consider, zx2c4 , i can show that nuffin in my arithm routines can overflow a buffer. even if you were to turn ada's overflow checks off. without any complicated tooling.
zx2c4: with good comments? or some nice feature of ada? or easy arithmetic youre implementing? or what?
asciilifeform: i can show this because the inputs , for given size, literally do not affect the program branch flow.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: with bare hands.
zx2c4: carrys/overflows are handled explicitly or something?
asciilifeform: consider to read the series.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 << convenient link.
zx2c4: what you've described sounds good. im wondering if it's the result of comments, the result of just better organized code, or the result of some nice features of ada you're using
asciilifeform: no magical feature of ada
asciilifeform: tho it does helpfully give pascal-style pass by ref, to avoid pointerisms
zx2c4: explicit carries everywhere, cool
zx2c4: what's W_Carry?
asciilifeform: it is result of the specific mathematical approach taken. where code must remain SMALL and NO branching on cryptobits, other than death on div0, is permitted. no memory indexing on cryptobits, either.
zx2c4: or, rather, where can i see the implementation of W_Carry
asciilifeform: zx2c4: see ch1
zx2c4: Shift_Right((A and B) or ((A or B) and (not S)),
zx2c4: Bitness - 1)
zx2c4: aahh that trick
asciilifeform: you can browse whole ch13 at http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch13/ffa_calc__adb.htm , if lazy
asciilifeform: html concordance.
zx2c4: ever see this book https://jjj.de/fxt/fxtbook.pdf
asciilifeform: yep
asciilifeform: iirc you recced it last time
zx2c4: O_o really?
zx2c4: that would be very surprising
asciilifeform: possibly was sumbodyelse
zx2c4: !s fxt
zx2c4: !#s fxt
a111: 3 results for "fxt", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fxt
asciilifeform: it's sitting in a 3ring here in my tortureroom for whatever reason.
zx2c4 sleeps
asciilifeform: nighty
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876333 << dun seem to be in the logs, possibly was in a private letter from sumbody.. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 03:31 asciilifeform: possibly was sumbodyelse
asciilifeform: ( it's a not-terrible numerics schoolb00k , ftr )
asciilifeform: let's bounce the rubble, also.. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876304 >> ftr i have iron right here where this will bomb, cuz byte not 8bit there. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 03:22 asciilifeform: ... or that the #define ULT(a, b) ((a ^ ((a ^ b) | ((a - b) ^ b))) >> (sizeof(a) * 8 - 1)) macro dun turn to barf in the preprocessor on acct of some esoteric beard shaving from dennis richie ?
asciilifeform: ( longtime tuned-in folx, will know what irons )
asciilifeform: i'ma bet was not acctd for in the 'proof'isms..
asciilifeform: btw , q for ffa readership, can anybody think of a way to make the digit slider routine non8bitbyte-clean ? ( beyond having ffa eat its pistol on boot if it finds itself on such machine, lol )
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch13/fz_io__adb.htm#29_14 << subj. presumes existence of 'nibbles'
asciilifeform: afaik all of ffz outside of fz_io , is arbitrary bytebitness and wordbyteness -clean..
asciilifeform: *ffa
asciilifeform bbl,meat,and will come back on console with actual kbd lol
mircea_popescu: 0.o
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876164 << dude, get the fuck off the planet, and take your pompously vacuous self-important idiocy with you. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 02:36 zx2c4: nice post
mircea_popescu: what the everloving fuck.
mircea_popescu: next shit out of your dumb mouth fails to string match apologizing for being quite so fucking stupid, i'ma fix the negligence whereby you can still speak here.
zx2c4: On my phone right now, woke up from a dream to see this, not sure if im still dreaming. Care to explain what's provoked your ire?
mircea_popescu: !!rate zx2c4 -1 moron
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3POmi/?raw=true
zx2c4: My "nice post" remark wasnt sarcastic, if thats what youre responding to
asciilifeform: ваше слово, товарищ маузер! (tm)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right, "lalala i can't hear you" until the very last moment, when the curtain drops. because why the fuck not, hurr.
mircea_popescu: all this "self-confidence is the only education needed" nonsense reheheheally paid off.
deedbot: http://ave1.org/2018/%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%88%d0%b5-%d1%81%d0%bb%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%be-%d1%82%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%80%d0%b8%d1%89-%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%83%d0%b7%d0%b5%d1%80/ << ave1 - , !
asciilifeform: https://github.com/project-everest/hacl-star/blob/master/code/bignum/Hacl.Spec.Bignum.Fproduct.fst << holy fuq, the sort of liquishit that d00d's links offered as proofolade... picture trying to ~read~ this. ( and there's 9000 of'em )
deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/11/30/smg-comms-chapter-10-actions-and-rsa-keys/ << Ossasepia - SMG Comms Chapter 10: Actions and RSA Keys
diana_coman: asciilifeform, phf my sig for ffa ch3: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-513.0-513.24
asciilifeform: ty diana_coman ! i will sew it into ch14.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876362 << i'll admit, i kept half-expecting him to actually read a ch of ffa and go 'hmm... maybe i should throw out my c hairball and mecha-proofisms' but of course no dice. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 09:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right, "lalala i can't hear you" until the very last moment, when the curtain drops. because why the fuck not, hurr.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702334 << see also e.g. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-22 18:12 mircea_popescu: this place is for reading AND FOR CHANGING YOURSELF.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-387.0-393.1067 << and.
BingoBoingo: Local Prison architecture http://archive.is/pwNgt http://archive.is/M4NEr
Mocky: is it just me or does that look like baltimore?
BingoBoingo: It's Libertad
asciilifeform: hey BingoBoingo what do you call in english those strings ?
asciilifeform: y'know, between the adjacent cell grates
asciilifeform: ( in ru world they're кони , 'horses' )
asciilifeform: one hooks up wads of paper with note , like spitball in kindergarten, to'em
BingoBoingo: I am unsure, I missed them in the photo until you mentioned them
asciilifeform: look specifically in http://archive.is/M4NEr -- the center 2 cells on bottom 2 rows are linked with horses
asciilifeform: d00d whose cot is by the grate has the duty of 'keeping the road', as they called it (again nfi in english world what it is called there, much less in spanish empire)
asciilifeform: road runs mainly at night, for obv reason.
BingoBoingo: Aha
BingoBoingo: Anyways, Libertad is about a third of the way from Montevideo to Colonia
asciilifeform: the procedure for making the 'road' go is quite elaborate and much dwelled on in ru prison lit. ( gotta pull apart a sock, weave rope, make 'fishing rod' out of paper + bread glue etc , then run the 'horse' )
asciilifeform: ( in ru variant, moar laborious cuz their setup tends to look moar like https://www.tyurem.net/album/images/narva_55_jpg.jpg -- iron grate sorta like on modern 'central ac' duct, gotta be pried apart a little with sumthing )
asciilifeform: ( technically 'horse' is the spitball, 'road' is the rope, but again in eng world whoknows, maybe whole tradition died/never born )
asciilifeform: jailers pull'em down with hooks, so they get rebuilt regularly.
BingoBoingo: The Uruguayos don't tend to lockup people for very long. Year+ in prison seems to be an anomaly
asciilifeform: in current-day ru, as i understand you need repeated (1 corpse generally not suffice) wetwork to merit >decade
asciilifeform: while in usg reich, effectively life sentence for ~errything, at least if yer white , is ~standard
asciilifeform: ( there are 'lifers' in ru, typically 5+ corpses on ea., but they typically have life expectancy of ~7y . 1 survived to parole age last yr, it was enuff of an oddity that it was taken up in the fishwraps as newz )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051&cpage=1#comment-19756 and thx !
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/11/argentina-buys-us-soy/ << Qntra - Argentina Buys US Soy
mircea_popescu: trinque re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875902 : considering both items in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875860 are at 6+ confirms now, i'd say the point re the utter irelevancy and thorough ireality of usg and its figments is well made enough to not need me to throw away dimes to rando idiot spammers. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 22:47 trinque: mircea_popescu: lulzy, but my coffers aren't stocked up for a supreme court fight just yet
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 19:53 mircea_popescu: 0fb6460fcb88a0fbdc85d4f3b9505e69814ceacb3effd20b427d1b8d5689094e / 09c078a4040b1a044dc654e005bcc8b4c23523393d5244fd9c47408968555640 i see mempool txn right now.
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: though maybe BingoBoingo feels like updating the piece that started teh discussion with the corresponding mockery.
mircea_popescu: how goes alfie.
asciilifeform: another day in the lulzroom.
asciilifeform: tried, for instance, to actually read zx2c4's hairball, ran outa barfbags
mircea_popescu: lol if you insist on wasting time...
mircea_popescu: btw Mocky -- teh bot dies through the following : often it makes so much stuff in one click it overwhelms its weight carrying capacity. any chance you can implement a fragmenter-if-overweight ? it's often enough to be a pain in the ass by now.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well, asciilifeform is not usually the 'Пастернака не читал, но осуждаю'(tm)(r) type. so yes tried to read.
asciilifeform: but (spoiler!) it aint actually readable.
asciilifeform: approx on par with e.g. koch.
mircea_popescu: dude's mental processes are of a certain ilk, whadda ya want.
asciilifeform: ( and , in fact ~to the credit of~ koch, at least the latter didn't fuck about with 'proofs' )
mircea_popescu: there's not this miracle in nature, "i know he doesn't wash, but he's a great guy!"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still can't make heads or tails of wtf was in that d00d's head. shows symptoms of some kinda maths education. but omfg the 'cd-r brain'.
mircea_popescu: usual set of a) "you're special" cuntlet nonsense and b) "if its hard it means you don't have to do it" ustardation. they interplay the same way everywhere, it's a coherently broken philosophical system
asciilifeform: folx ~do~ on occasion get out of e.g. the bottle. but ~this~ appears to be incurable, medicine is powerless.
mircea_popescu: in fact, pretty much every single pantsuit mental cockroach can be deduced from a+b above, ~including~ the strictly contradictory bits, and also including the psychotic nonsednse that allows them to maintain contradictory beliefs.
mircea_popescu: i'm sure curable. his problem is -- medicine is NOT INTERESTED.
mircea_popescu: just like all bois could in fact be reproduced, if there were somewhere a girl with sufficient patience. there isn't.
asciilifeform: i gave ~hour to attempt to cure. in retrospect it was folly, made 0 dent.
mircea_popescu: you're kinda famous for your generosity in this vein, actually.
mircea_popescu: nwwt.
asciilifeform: it was quite similar, imho, to the gabriel laddel fella. clearly there was 'somebody home' in the crankcase, but under a thick haze of substances and detritus from indiscriminate suction of ??? from heathendom. 'salvation of the drowning is work for the selfsame drowning', what can i say.
mircea_popescu: very unlikely. gl dood was young.
asciilifeform: i pictured zx2c4 as also young, but i have nfi specifically
mircea_popescu: there's a certain level of permissible idiocy in the youth. they come out of eggs.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876229 was lulzy, incidentally ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 02:58 zx2c4: haha, was just curious. i presume you're ancient
asciilifeform: it's at least the 5th time i got that q, nearly lost count
mircea_popescu: "how old are you cuz you derive" ?
asciilifeform: the notion that sumbody might turn away from 'modernity' consciously, rather than because alzheimer patient, apparently is a bridge too far for some folx
mircea_popescu: i suppose we're a priviledged set, had derive on ye olde 386, instead of "had stupid family, watched disney" or w/e.
mircea_popescu: right, cuz the part where "it fucking worked" is something "we've all moved past" rite.
asciilifeform: hey i even managed to see disneys. a coupla, with the trad ru dubbing translator with clothspin on his nose going mmmm
mircea_popescu: lol. actually, i recently saw aladdin, at hanbot 's insistence. previously i think jungle book was last.
mircea_popescu: they kinda went to shit in the 00s.
asciilifeform: iirc that was last one i saw ( and the only 1 in orig lang )
asciilifeform: after that they went to '3d'
asciilifeform: ( and ran out of folklore to pillage )
mircea_popescu: jungle book was honest, in this sense. pillaged their own anglo narratives.
asciilifeform: 'where they cut off yer lips! if they dun like yer smile! it's barbaric, but hey it's home!'
asciilifeform: (aladdin)
asciilifeform: ^ for some reason was censored from 'dvd' disc ver., iirc
mircea_popescu: but yes, alladin carries a pretty fucking strong scent of "oh, hi, we're ohioan squarejaws wearing bedsheets. totally legit rome sir. rome, ohio."
asciilifeform: rright but moar or less unperfumed with pretense
asciilifeform: was transparently http://pbfcomics.com/comics/now-showing/
mircea_popescu: yeah, i kinda got the same "oh, we're cluless, aren't we cute tho".
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's a pity san fernando valley was all morons in the 90s. could have bought disney, turn it into slut educational tool.
mircea_popescu: nothing but naked 9yo princesses aspiring to porn valley.
asciilifeform: !!up SeanRiddle
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's such a fucking perfect illustration.
asciilifeform: hm deedbot jammed or wat
mircea_popescu: for whatever, early xtianity comprehending "paganism", italian cinquecento "rescuing classical antiquity", what have you.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's the alleged ic rev d00d
mircea_popescu: who ?!
asciilifeform: amberglint's fella
mircea_popescu: trinque hey! no deedbot ?!
mircea_popescu: o, really ?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875702 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 15:44 asciilifeform: amberglint: that's the basic litmus test. if comes, gets in wot, then ~possibly~ serious
mircea_popescu: hm. i wonder if we can do ye olde cartoon thing i couldn't get done before.
asciilifeform: which
trinque: thanks mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: !!up SeanRiddle
deedbot: SeanRiddle voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: asciilifeform: didn't you say you had spotted a bug?
asciilifeform: trinque: i can't speak for deedbot, but the ircbot code i put pehbot on doesn't autoreconnect at all
mircea_popescu: i kept trying to get a comic going, oglaf chick wouldn't do it, that midnight_on_mars dood with the http://pictures.hentai-foundry.com/m/MidnightonMars/435591/MidnightonMars-435591-Secret_Obsession_-_Overwatch.jpg too fucktarded to communicate...
asciilifeform: ( dunno if 'bug' or simply no one yet made variant which knows how )
SeanRiddle: I can decap it and get pics, and if it's simple enough I can remove the top metal layer and get more pics, but someone will need to vectorize it to RE it
mircea_popescu: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/electro-sutra/ << terrible fucking shit, could greatly benefit from you know... SOME IDEAS.
trinque: deedbot's based upon that, usually reconnects, but it is looking like there's a case where it does not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/harlots-web/ << some are notbad
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle haha was this you all along ?
mircea_popescu: !!key SeanRiddle
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/DB1F3B4EB0B57B39781D11056491328274DC7865.asc
mircea_popescu: !!rate SeanRiddle 1 http://pbfcomics.com/comics/now-showing/
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/DAlwz/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle you'll be able to self-voice once this expires. also, what do you use to peel layers ?
SeanRiddle: I'm using Whink to remove the passivation layer and top metal layer.
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: also what res photo can you take ?
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: i tried to look at the high res samples on your www, but found only http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875711 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 15:50 asciilifeform: http://www.seanriddle.com/sc1die.html << suggests that this is the case, the link to 'Here's a 17436x15128 pixel version (HD View on another server)' goes to some microshit site that doesn't actually load for me
mircea_popescu: hahaha rust remover ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun expect he has an ion accelerator, no
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle is it a case you have high resolution photos and lack hosting for them ?
SeanRiddle: http://seanriddledecap.blogspot.com has links to where I uploaded big pics to wikimedia
SeanRiddle: Yep, Whink's an easy way to get weak HFl
SeanRiddle: A lot of the pics on wikimedia are 40Kx40K pixels
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'd have thought people just use royal water / hcl / something.
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle what's your medium planning look like ? you wanna do more comicwork ? you wanna expand on your decapping ? what do you do for a living anyway ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun think he's the comic d00d
asciilifeform: thread crosstalk
SeanRiddle: Just a programmer - no comic stuff. Decapping is just a weekend hobby.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform didn't you say amberglint's fellow is the decapper / comic dude ?
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle sorry lol, seems i got confused. sooo what do you program ?
SeanRiddle: Some embedded stuff for oilfield equipment, some apps for decision analysis
asciilifeform: >> http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory.jpg << subj
mircea_popescu: !!rate SeanRiddle 1 decap hobbist
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Bj4p5/?raw=true
SeanRiddle: So the die's upside down, huh?
mircea_popescu: what do you do if there's multiple layers anyway ?
SeanRiddle: I leave it for someone with better equipment. I don't have any lapping equipment.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory_pinside.jpg
asciilifeform: loox like top is au-plated iron thermal lid, bottom -- ceramic.
mircea_popescu: how many layers is it ? known even ?
asciilifeform: unknown
asciilifeform: nor known what exactly size of die, beyond the obv max visible in the photo
asciilifeform: ( suggests that it's 2cm^2 )
mircea_popescu: kinda fucking hard to peel off an unknown layer count.
asciilifeform: my notes say that it is either '2um cmos' by vlsi co., or '1um cmos' (hp co) if later edition (not known which one we have)
asciilifeform: iirc this means up to 9 layers.
asciilifeform: moar typically 5.
mircea_popescu: so the chip is what, 4mm or so tall ?
asciilifeform: the die ? i dun think even today there is die whole 4mm tall
asciilifeform: more like 1.
mircea_popescu: still, 100 or so um per layer, should be doable without necessarily ion gun
asciilifeform: it's approx same item as 386, chemically
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876364 << lmao ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 11:31 deedbot: http://ave1.org/2018/%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%88%d0%b5-%d1%81%d0%bb%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%be-%d1%82%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%80%d0%b8%d1%89-%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%83%d0%b7%d0%b5%d1%80/ << ave1 - , !
mircea_popescu: i esp like the - , ! sendoff
mircea_popescu: стихи << does english even have "stih" ? certainly ro word, and afaik they have "diptych" and such later greek derivatives...
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix-1987-baker.pdf ( warning: pdfturd/scan ) has the only known die shot
mircea_popescu: apparently not.
asciilifeform: may be possible to infer exact metrage from it
asciilifeform: ^ is where i got also only known spec re microcode, '1200 word x 180bit rom'
asciilifeform: 390`000 transistor.
asciilifeform: item was 1 of the 1st ( if not ~the~ first ) machine-layout'd ic's, so it won't be as simple to re as the early 80s cpus
asciilifeform: ( prior to these, masks were drawn 'by hand', on room-sized film, with actual pieces of electrician's tape )
amberglint: Hello everyone
amberglint: I found a couple more bits about the Ivory https://i.imgur.com/m5HvPHA.png https://i.imgur.com/QEzR2po.png
asciilifeform: oh hey the die size
asciilifeform: claims '12.6 x 12.3 mm'
asciilifeform: and yes photo matches the one given by baker, to the limit of naked eye.
asciilifeform: ty amberglint
amberglint: it's from Howard Shrobe's "Exploring Artificial Intelligence. Survey Talks from the National Conferences on Artificial Intelligence"
asciilifeform: perma-mirrored at http://www.loper-os.org/pub/amberglint_bolix_1.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/amberglint_bolix_2.jpg , ty
amberglint: I can share the whole pdf if you want
asciilifeform: plz
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle you say !!up to deedbot in a pm.
asciilifeform: iirc phf ( and apparently nobody else ) has the actual pinout, but iirc it is on a tape or the like and he hasn't posted yet
amberglint: here's the pdf: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bal19et85pwc5yb/Howard%20Shrobe-Exploring%20Artificial%20Intelligence.%20Survey%20Talks%20from%20the%20National%20Conferences%20on%20Artificial%20Intelligence-Elsevier%20Inc%2C%20Morgan%20Kaufmann%20Pub%20%281988%29.pdf?dl=0
asciilifeform: ty
amberglint: it says "CMOS - 2 Level metal", does that mean two layers?
mircea_popescu: all those delicious %20s, the unerring sign of computer iliteracy.
mircea_popescu: amberglint can't fucking fit in 2 layers at 1.x sqcm
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/shrobe-1988.pdf << mirrored nao.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: winblowz filenames ftw.
mircea_popescu: 2 level metal is trade name, a sort of metalization process
amberglint: ah
asciilifeform: simply means there's 2 metal layer ( conductors ) .
asciilifeform: along with buncha else.
mircea_popescu: https://epdf.tips/silicon-processing-for-the-vlsi-era-deep-submicron-process-technology.html << notbad likbez.
asciilifeform: 'It is of tiie same complexity as an Intel 80386 or a Motorola 68030. Figure 21 is a photomicrograph of the chip (chip people always seem to need to show their chip pictures). The Ivory chip is more or less divided into three horizontal slices; the top is the datapath and stack cache, the middle is the control system, and the bottom is the memory interface. In the middle of the control system is a very large microstore, again compara
asciilifeform: ble to what you'd see in a 80386 or a 68020 class machine.'
asciilifeform: 'Figure 24 show some statistics about Ivory. The size of the chip was about a centimeter-and-a-half on a side in the earliest version which was done using 2-micron CMOS technology. The first commercial version will be done in a 1.6 micron process and will be about a centimeter on a side, as is the TI chip. This makes it a very large, (but not impossibly large), chip to fabricate. There are about 255,000 actual transistors on the die.
asciilifeform: However, the common way of measuring chip complexity is to count the number of transistor sites; this measures the size of the internal ROMs better. Using that count, this is one of the largest chip ever done, containing nearly 400,000 transistor sites. The chip was designed very quickly (it took about 9 months from the freezing of the architecture to the first prototype chip, using a team of only 4 designers).'
mircea_popescu: remember back when they had folks who went to school ? "elite" husband-and-wife team could bake a great z80 game over a summer, and so on.
amberglint: asciilifeform: I also have an article about NS somewhere, don't know if you have it yet
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall that these folx had automation that actually worked.
asciilifeform: amberglint: let's have it, for completeness, if you can dig up.
mircea_popescu: and wives that actually worked and banks that actually worked and suppliers and everything else that actually worked ; and very little of the soviet http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-25#1176177 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-25 07:05 mircea_popescu: "Our Solutions Leadership About Us Careers News Contact" who the fuck thought this is how you do it ? it's almost like the soviet butcher, "we're the advertising shop, we don't have publishers. fish is what they don't have in the shop down the street"
mircea_popescu: and people envied them for it and even considered defecting to it, and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: indeed, tho quite ironically bolix itself was quite analogous to a su research town
amberglint: found it, "CAD Programming in an Object Oriented Programming Environment" by J. Cherry, going to upload it now
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772041 << see also ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:47 asciilifeform: to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him
mircea_popescu: amberglint how about you mp-wp yourself ?
amberglint: mircea_popescu: had it on my mind lately, probably going to do it at some point soon
mircea_popescu: it'd certainly saving on all this "here's rando domain i put stuff on"
asciilifeform: amberglint: there's an unsold rk ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2295 ) machine at pizarro, waiting for somebody's sweet bl0g
asciilifeform: diana_coman presently uses, and BingoBoingo , and a few other folx, worx great
mircea_popescu: wasn't there also a shared setup ?
asciilifeform: there is !
asciilifeform: e.g. hanbot uses
asciilifeform: also worx
asciilifeform: for photo-heavy / warez etc www, i'd recommend the rk
mircea_popescu: i can see it.
amberglint: asciilifeform: I'll consider it, thank you for the offer
amberglint: here's the pdf: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i2e9umvhpcss00b/ns-cherry.pdf?dl=0
amberglint: page 265
asciilifeform: amberglint: they're pretty sweet 4core arm64 boxen; i assembled and engentoo'd with own hand
asciilifeform: ty amberglint
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876374 << item looks rather like 1980s era soviet collegiate campus. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 15:42 BingoBoingo: Local Prison architecture http://archive.is/pwNgt http://archive.is/M4NEr
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ns-cherry.pdf mirrored.
amberglint: I wish I could locate the actual docs for NS
asciilifeform: amberglint: afaik nobody's found'em yet
mircea_popescu: amberglint best bet prolly hanging about when the dood what's his name croaks and buying the debris in his house.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dks ? made pretty convincing case that they aint at his house ( but whoknows )
asciilifeform: ( he condescended to give asciilifeform a keyboard pinout, and had to 'go to warehouse' to get )
mircea_popescu: eh, the red stapler guy, shit's always at his house. periodically they find a "traitor" fo this kind, had 9000 "secret" hard drives in basement.
mircea_popescu: i'm sure it's on moldy papers.
asciilifeform: it is on moldy papers. and iirc phf even has been to where.
asciilifeform: ( moldy tapes also )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: house, was fulla iron, old moldy cards, hdds, consoles. dks was/is a repairman, afaik mechanical engineer orig by trade .
asciilifeform: had 0 to do with design.
mircea_popescu: i'm sure, nor does this change much really.
asciilifeform: nfi
asciilifeform: could have the crown jewels, or not, nobodyknows.
BingoBoingo: Updated http://qntra.net/2018/11/usg-issues-sanctions-against-two-bitcoin-addresses/
amberglint: Tom Knight still has some schematics for AI Lab's modified PDP-10 and his graphical terminal
amberglint: he shared them with people who are working on PDP-10 emulation
asciilifeform: amberglint: pdp10 is approx as interesting as nintendo tho
amberglint: I know, just interesting that he keeps some old shit
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876396 <<< aaaahahahaah omfg holy shit this beats all. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 16:25 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/11/argentina-buys-us-soy/ << Qntra - Argentina Buys US Soy
mircea_popescu: so what do they DO!!!! anymore!
BingoBoingo: Argentina claims to be exporting their whole soy crop to china. I guess they are trying to live off of whatever percent difference minus transport.
BingoBoingo: But yes, somehow they can afford reactor + crew from russia
Mocky: "Still, a total of 6-7 transactions had been sent to the addresses by time of writing, some with intriguing transaction details. For instance, this transaction has an embedded message:
Mocky: The U.S. government cannot ban Bitcoin addresses" http://archive.is/jwoB9#selection-1777.0-1793.48
Mocky: "The other address has one notable transaction which is sent from 1JEWSxAgGhSFuNPHUAr13zftNLjYt5wZaS and 1MoSSaDDSStrRo53YjPaGcXiABAXfYuvEL. A dust transaction, it was confirmed in block 551895."
asciilifeform: Mocky: i dun see where 'embedded' tho
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876406 I won't get a chance to look at this until signed up with new daily bread overlord ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 17:27 mircea_popescu: btw Mocky -- teh bot dies through the following : often it makes so much stuff in one click it overwhelms its weight carrying capacity. any chance you can implement a fragmenter-if-overweight ? it's often enough to be a pain in the ass by now.
Mocky: asciilifeform, listed as note in https://btc.com/61fea39f4f22e3190fc48c24047c9e52a7a37e2f2d03c242eed016921830e044
asciilifeform: yes, but ~where in the tx~ does the text live
Mocky: ah, dunno
asciilifeform: or is this 1 of those heathen 'blockchain info' 'append note to your tx' promisetronic thingies
amberglint: asciilifeform: I'll try to ask Howard Shrobe about the layers, maybe he still remembers if he deigns to answer
asciilifeform: amberglint: he's 1 of the folx i've tried writing to, in past yrs, perhaps you'll have better luck than i
asciilifeform: always worth a shot
asciilifeform: iirc he went into medicine after bolix folded
asciilifeform: ( somewhere on my hdd, there's a photo of shrobe walking across a stage holding up a 3620 , the kind in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=51 , in his hands, 'looksy, first 'portable' bolix' )
amberglint: from what I know, he's back at MIT
amberglint: CSAIL
asciilifeform: ah
amberglint: even giving interviews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmFRvIA8lug
asciilifeform: dun appear to be lispm-related, sadly
asciilifeform: ( not esp surprising tho )
asciilifeform: current mit is a kind of nursing home, as i gather
asciilifeform: elderly academics who can barely hold up cup of tea, and buncha quasi-literate young folx ( see infamous http://btcbase.org/log/2013-12-01#400666 ) to wait on'em ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2013-12-01 15:21 ozbot: MIT graduates cannot power a light bulb with a battery. - YouTube
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a small space in a tx to add some text.
mircea_popescu: your own "blockchain telegraphy" and a buncha "child porn in blockchain" antiqua are there
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there's several ways to 'add text' , aha , http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1490
asciilifeform: was curious which one was used
asciilifeform: ( it wasn't obv from the link )
asciilifeform: it's easier if you dun intend to recirculate the coinz.
asciilifeform: ( then can encode txt as dest addrs )
mircea_popescu: (by the way, since we're doing usg pretense & impotence : the bitcoin blockchain DOES factually contain child porn. exactly 0 anyone can do about this, which is why exactly 0 mention of this in pravda & co. much like exactly 0 mention on #metoo of all the "evil white men of patriarchy" that laughed @metootard all the way to the brothel.)
asciilifeform: hey didn't sumbody stuff in 'goldbug' virus from 1993 , and thereby trigger microshit's av
asciilifeform: i vaguely recall this gag
mircea_popescu: something like that, yeh.
asciilifeform: but sure can stuff in whatever bytes, iirc addr decoder barfing dun invalidate a tx , classically
asciilifeform: costs whatever the miner fee is, plus epsilon for payload ( most of the current chinese won't mine a 0-summing tx iirc )
asciilifeform has personally used this mechanism for remote control of... autonomous machinery
asciilifeform: in earlier days there were also folx stuffing strings into block hdrs, but dunno if this is still in fashion, and at any rate no longer doable if you aint chinese, to 1st approx
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876486 >> notbad, e.g. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Oki_m6283_metal.jpg , but still can't see individual transistors there, unless i'm missing sumthing ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 17:52 SeanRiddle: http://seanriddledecap.blogspot.com has links to where I uploaded big pics to wikimedia
asciilifeform: ( also seems to have dirt, which is problem, cuz 1 speck of shit can cover several 100 transistor at this density -- not even speaking of moar recent micronages )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876617 << alright. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 19:14 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876406 I won't get a chance to look at this until signed up with new daily bread overlord
asciilifeform: it's a good try, but i dunno that this is usable for re.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i guess, if there's any hero waiting in the wings to cut teeth on some code... it's not THAT intricate.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was this the http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mp.gif thing ?
asciilifeform: iirc i posted my solver, but for somereason cannot find in log, so will repost, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4TeLb/?raw=true
asciilifeform: wb SeanRiddle
SeanRiddle: That's the lo-res pic. Wikimedia sometimes chokes on my big pics, and I have to upload smaller ones. Go down to the File History and there's a link to a 43Kx45K pixel pic.
asciilifeform looks
asciilifeform: ~600MB notbad
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: what sorta camera didja use ?
asciilifeform tries to find sumthing that'll display that thing without choking
SeanRiddle: It's a Canon EOS 5D
asciilifeform: i had that thing, but it certainly didn't take 43k x 43k photos. didja stitch'em ?
SeanRiddle: Yeah, that was something like 39x60 pics stitched
asciilifeform: notbad
asciilifeform sadly does not yet have with what to actually look at the photo
asciilifeform: 'gimp' chokes.
asciilifeform: why's it a jpg anyway, wouldn't this introduce artifacts ?
asciilifeform: ( what it also does, is prevent from loading the pic in sections, which is annoying )
amberglint: asciilifeform: can you cut the picture back with something like imagemagick?
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: is this the orig form of the https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Oki_m6283_metal.jpg item ? with dust & all ?
SeanRiddle: I'm taking jpgs with the camera and then stitching those with fiji. It looks as good to me as using RAW, but a lot easier.
asciilifeform: it is my understanding that any dust at all is a problem for this job
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: were you ever able to actually re a circuit from your photos ?
SeanRiddle: I haven't but https://plus.google.com/103546033861220813867
SeanRiddle: and http://www.octoate.de/wp/2016/04/18/gate-array-decapped/
asciilifeform: that 6502, is a 8 micron ic, almost half century old nao
asciilifeform: ( and there are at least a dozen micrographs available )
asciilifeform: ever succeeded with a 1um ?
SeanRiddle: That one was a blowtorch decap, so some of the dirt is residue from the plastic encapsulation. I can clean that with HN03.
asciilifeform: or hm, this one's about a 'Amstrad 40010'
SeanRiddle: I have not.
asciilifeform: blowtorch decap?!
SeanRiddle: www.seanriddle.com/decap.mp4
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: just so you're aware of the orig subj -- the ic we were looking to see decapped is worth mebbe 10,000 $ ea. ( and at that, i have 0 guarantee of being able to find more . ever. ) i have a grand total of 2.
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: the link 404's
SeanRiddle: Heh - I was not told the value! Why not use a pro decapper? But you wouldn't torch that package.
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: pro decapper + microscopist runs about 30k. so that's on hold pending asciilifeform actually having 30k to use on proj.
asciilifeform: if i had 5 or 6 of the 'ivories' i would happily give 1 to SeanRiddle , ftr. but currently must pass.
SeanRiddle: Yeah, I'd be too nervous anyway!
asciilifeform: ( it aint even matter of cost; simply we're dealing with an almost-extinct animal. there's maybe a few dozen of these left in the wild, optimistically )
amberglint: twenty of them were recently scrapped for gold...
mircea_popescu: re argentine lulz, it seems there's an unadvertised trade war going on, in the limited sense that the us produces some soy the chinese deem too shitty to buy. better living through chemistry results.
SeanRiddle: Looking at the package, I'm guessing the protrusion on the bottom would pop off, revealing the top of the die.
asciilifeform: amberglint: indeed, link is in the log
asciilifeform: SeanRiddle: shrobe's photo suggests that die top is on top of package
asciilifeform: but currently hard to be certain
SeanRiddle: I can see traces on the pin side, making me think that the die bonds to them and the heatsink on top is the bottom of the die.
asciilifeform: possible
asciilifeform: i was gonna have the thing xrayed, to learn the truth, but this also not done yet.
mircea_popescu: you know, i think he actually has a point ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he does : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory.jpg object dun look removable, but rather like it was inserted from other end
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876659 << nah, this is re http://mocky.org/Foxybot-Enhancements-Part-18-Build-35-Release/ ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 19:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was this the http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mp.gif thing ?
asciilifeform: aa ok
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876669 << wouldn't it be easier to just present them separate ? not like people can't cat at home. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 19:58 SeanRiddle: Yeah, that was something like 39x60 pics stitched
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: stiching is quite cpu/ram-heavy
asciilifeform: ( recall, ~no room for error )
mircea_popescu: then you gotta find http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876666 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 19:55 asciilifeform tries to find sumthing that'll display that thing without choking
asciilifeform: in pro shops, they use microscope with stepper motor
mircea_popescu: (which gimp does ok, but then again needs the ram)
asciilifeform: ( sorta like how traditional flatbed scanner worx )
mircea_popescu: i dunno, maybe i'm just not grasping something fundamental. but it seems to me that for reversing work, 2400 pics with margins beats a 600mb monstrosity.
mircea_popescu: people only look in one spot at a time anyway
asciilifeform: really this thing oughta be saved for proper SEM . but currently notenuff dough for this pleasure.
mircea_popescu: is the idea to do machined reversing ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's always machined, it's more or less impossible otherwise.
asciilifeform: a kind of specialized ocr.
mircea_popescu: in my mind people just sat with a patient needle and marked down 300k locations.
asciilifeform: ( esp. considering that the transistors were placed by machine to begin with, so they aint in any human-comprehensible order like they are on z80 or 6502 etc )
mircea_popescu: ah
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they do sit with needle. but only ~after~, to correct obvious oopses in ocr.
asciilifeform: otherwise 1000 manyears.
mircea_popescu: how do you know when they're done ?
mircea_popescu: "obvious" open ended enough.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same way you know when http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834941 is done. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:50 a111: Logged on 2018-06-25 21:45 asciilifeform: (1) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_ro_sig.png (2) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_hitler_enforcer.png (3) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_hitler_enforcement_businessend.png (4) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_pinned_pubs.png
mircea_popescu: ie "it works" ?
asciilifeform: ( i.e. you don't, not till you actually bake a working and satisfying cloned circuit )
asciilifeform: correct.
mircea_popescu: but i mean... you don't even have the spec against which to check this "works" ?
asciilifeform: all that presently exists in the wild is 1) small number of actual 'ivory' machines/cards, where could put cloned ic 2) the software/os stack
mircea_popescu: maybe you end up with bugbolix machine, accurate to the collection of userland software bugs.
mircea_popescu: (this so neatly mirrors ye trb/prb discussions it bleeds)
asciilifeform: can only rule this out once 'fit in head' yes
asciilifeform: exactly like trb.
asciilifeform: there is no escape from this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and for the puyrpose of fit in head, do you agree 2.4k pics with margins better than 600mb flatpile ?
asciilifeform: fwiw in su they cloned ic's photographically, without any attempt to actually grasp the contents
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, gotta preprocess the thing to get a draft netlist (i.e. what's connected to what) and only then can walk the photos to search for barfolade
mircea_popescu: i hereby dub one possible end result of this process "the bugbolix plague".
asciilifeform: e.g. 'hey why is power connected to ground, must be a speck of skin in pic'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw folx did clone e.g. i386. it can be done.
asciilifeform: my 'cyrix' worked a+++.
mircea_popescu: i agree it can. i also think it can result in some pretty lulzy "electrolytes that plants need".
asciilifeform: if done sov-style -- can.
asciilifeform: as it is, micrography only good as 'part of balanced diet' along with http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-29#1876069 intel and the like. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-29 19:24 asciilifeform: on other front, phf : on occasion of the most recent bolix thread , i went and looked again at the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771955 artifact ; it is interesting that they provided 128 iron types, incl. bignum, but not a 'bignum of fixed N words'. i guess in '80s ~nobody was thinking of crypto at all. ( and i was prolly unduly pessimistic to the orig finder of $item, it is prolly 95% of what's needed for cycle-accurate clone.
mircea_popescu: you know, if we had working svg thius would be such an eminent application for a svg scroll-through-er.
asciilifeform: verily.
mircea_popescu: interlinked everythyings, adnotate-able...
asciilifeform: would ideally be sumthing that doesn't blow 100 bytes on erry bit of the image like that htmlistic war crime does.
mircea_popescu: the more we tal;k about this, the more it's evident what's lacking isn't MERELY x or y. we're lacking a buncha pieces here.
mircea_popescu: rather productive discussion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is there any difference between the netlist and a binary tree of transistors ?
mircea_popescu: or w/e, the list of binary trees, admitting somehow there's unconnected islands
asciilifeform: i was about to answe this:
asciilifeform: the reason why the scheme is possible to do at all, is that the transistor is not the fundamental semantic unit of the device
asciilifeform: what one does, is to try to determine the repeating functional blocks ( adders, shifters, srams, etc )
asciilifeform: rather than 'raw netlist of transistor'
mircea_popescu: if you were to attempt to do ~more~ machined reversing than merely "build me netlist", wouldn't the correct approach be to a) build binary tree of transistors and b) sick tree massager on it ?
asciilifeform: and ~then~ ( and this is what we have, but su reversers did not ) you load the thing into a (fairly inexpensive) fpga and try functional tests.
mircea_popescu: ie, while transistor is not natural language semantic unit, isn't it machine language semantic unit ?
mircea_popescu: (the "tree massager" in question being another major moving part we lack, obviously.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is certainly physically possible to do it that way, but the recognition is at best O(N^2) so one'd need some rather substantial irons; and also correspondingly moar sensitive to specks of dust in photo
mircea_popescu: yes -- nevertheless, it'd actually make fucking sense, as opposed to prayer-driven methodology.
asciilifeform: ideally you find the repeating patterns of transistorage and go straight to functional units ( granted this is only practical for bolix, 486, and newer, where there actually ~exist~ these units, as opposed to hand-optimized arbitrary transistorage )
mircea_popescu: right ?
mircea_popescu: i bet you what you want you'll find hand massage in bolix.
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=97 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 11/16/2018
mircea_popescu: a horse that goes 90% of the way to paris still can't make any part of stagecoach to paris.
asciilifeform: supposedly it was 100% machine-genned (possibly the 1st such ic)
asciilifeform: hence the 'ns' threads
mircea_popescu: i do not believe.
asciilifeform: i dun find it esp. difficult to swallow, ~100% of iron since 1990 or so was made this way.
asciilifeform: naturally designer gave the machine hints as to where to put what
asciilifeform: just like i do when laying out PCB for e.g. FG
mircea_popescu: i will take my chances on these four deuces. "engineers", i know what this means.
asciilifeform: at any rate the q is answerable. (~if~ we had with what to look inside)
mircea_popescu: true enough.
asciilifeform: once you have pics, can massage 9000 ways to heaven. but not prior.
mircea_popescu: problem being that massage will prolly inform future pic taking. but anyway.
mircea_popescu: we defo need a tree massager. this problem will reccur.
asciilifeform: sorta why one generally wants to capture 9000x moar detail than 'strictly needed'
asciilifeform: ( hence SEM vs opticals etc )
asciilifeform brb,t-time
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle incidentally, you ever saw http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875800 discussion ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 19:28 mircea_popescu: you put in a violet source, take a pic. next you put in a green source, take a pic. next, yellow and red.
SeanRiddle: I haven't. Fiji can do focus stacking, but I haven't tried that yet. I've got an XY table and I rigged a stepper to the focus knob, so I could take n pics at different focus for each tile.
mircea_popescu: the idea being that there's an absolute limit to optical microscopy due to quantum phenomena (hence the heisenberg reference, his original work as critiqued by bohr dealt exactly with this). however, these limits also depend on frequency, and from comparing measurements in different lights one can get some error correction.
mircea_popescu: but the issue isn't focus ; it simply is the frequency of the photons involved.
mircea_popescu: re : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876662 what one ends up doing is curl -k 'https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/archive/4/44/20180902023042!Oki_m6283_metal.jpg/114px-Oki_m6283_metal.jpg' > sean.jpg (note the quotes because wikipedia is made by pedos who are also retarded, and includes bashes and shit). ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 19:52 SeanRiddle: That's the lo-res pic. Wikimedia sometimes chokes on my big pics, and I have to upload smaller ones. Go down to the File History and there's a link to a 43Kx45K pixel pic.
mircea_popescu: SeanRiddle why the hell would you use this batshit insane process. what's wrong with linking things like sane people, off your own domain and all ?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in retro news, https://www.octoate.de/wp/2018/11/10/cpcretrodev-2018-results-and-41-new-games/
SeanRiddle: When I starting posting pics I was hosting my domain at home and the big pics would kill my access. blogspot limits the max size, so I uploaded to wikimedia. Now I'm using a real web host, so I guess I could put everything there.
mircea_popescu: for srs. like a respectable gent.
mircea_popescu: ideally both the pre-stitch and the post-stitch, and absolutely do not use jpg.
mircea_popescu: it may look the same to you, and to anyone else. but if it flipped over a pixel somewhere you're looking at a potential man-year to find where the fuck.
mircea_popescu: the problem with the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876736 standard is that one can take relatively few chances. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 20:20 mircea_popescu: ie "it works" ?
mircea_popescu: (this is not strictly about jpg. ~any~ image compressing/processing/fucking with the sensor data is dubious. even using such a thing as the camera's "soft" focus (as opposed to the lens-driven hard focus, some handhelds offer this internal processor-driven cvasi-focus) is a bad idea for this task. exact discussion of "whitening" and other such pattern-inserting nonsense from crypto)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876667 << proper slr, not soapbox , so loox on that front ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 19:55 SeanRiddle: It's a Canon EOS 5D
asciilifeform: ( i'm assuming, with microscope barrel mount ? )
asciilifeform: when using mounted slr, focus is solely in the microscope's optics
asciilifeform had, yrs ago, access to this setup, but sadly cannot afford to re-create it in torture room, was spiffy 'zeiss' thing
SeanRiddle: Yes; Olympus photomicro adapter
asciilifeform: neato
asciilifeform: if i had the floor space, would just pick up surplus SEM, it costs approx same as ~good~ optic funnily enuff
asciilifeform: ( 5-10 k u.s. $ )
asciilifeform: the surplus units want 10 or so square metres tho, of decent climate-controlled floor.
asciilifeform: plus (typically) 3phase.
asciilifeform reminisces re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-29#1705687 lulzthread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 21:40 mircea_popescu: < kanzure> jrayhawk_: would you be willing to host a microscope? responsibilities would include keeping it plugged in and internet connected. also there would be an irc bot that controls where it looks. you'd also be pestered to load samples periodically. << did this 2014 idea ever get implemented ?
asciilifeform: from there , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-29#1705799 << lul for ave1's lang study ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 22:19 asciilifeform: phf: 'Собрал царь зверей всех животных в лесу на поляне и говорит: - Cегодня мы будем трахать тех, у кого рот маленький. Правильно ежик? - Даааааа-Даааааа! - сказал ежик. - А завтра мы будем трахать тех, у кого рот большой. Правильно бегемот? -
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, hey ave1 , can has approved comment!!1
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you odn't like uruguay for the purpose ?
asciilifeform: i'd like uruguay, or antarctica, or just about anywhere.
asciilifeform: hard part is obv. not 'where to put SEM' lol.
asciilifeform: ( nor 'where plug in SEM'. it's 'where plug in asciilifeform' )
mircea_popescu: and we're all awaiting with bated breath you settling on something.
asciilifeform: lol mircea_popescu phrases it almost as if asciilifeform were buridaning in front of a set table
asciilifeform: 'pick sumthing! all fresh!'
asciilifeform: prolly oughta add that surplus SEM in particular ( and similar irons ) 1) generally live in usa 2) dun exactly fit in smuggle-trunk under old shirts
asciilifeform: prolly wrong approach overall, at that, really oughta find a ave1 or spyked fella with keys to adult lab somewhere.
asciilifeform: sorta how asciilifeform had 'the keys' in 2010 and had all the ducks lined up to run schwartz eotvos, and would have at least achieved some lulz if uncle al had not chickened
asciilifeform: had all the requisite backroom deals & all, but not the fist-sized benzyl xtal, so no dice.
asciilifeform: !#s calorimeter
a111: 8 results for "calorimeter", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=calorimeter
asciilifeform: ^ somewhere in the old thrds.
asciilifeform: i still can't fucking believe that d00d. 'my experiment requires 3 litres of virgin tears' 'hey al, i took 300 virgins and ran then rom-coms until they cried 3L, here it is in a mason jar' 'but! reasons!'
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> prolly oughta add that surplus SEM in particular ( and similar irons ) 1) generally live in usa 2) dun exactly fit in smuggle-trunk under old shirts << If you can produce an invoice I can recieve it as a prepackaged good
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: we're talkin' half a railcar
BingoBoingo: Well, fill the other half of the container with rockchip plants
asciilifeform: i dun think they'd swallow a 'this is worth 500, rly, srsly' 'receipt' for it.
BingoBoingo: worth ~500 USD/ton
asciilifeform: and i aint got 30% of the 400k they'd think it costs.
BingoBoingo: It's for refurbishing
asciilifeform: let's make a +ev pizarro 1st, lol
asciilifeform: before BingoBoingo starts to picture where he'd park a 10 m^2 SEM
asciilifeform: ( even supposing i devise a means of teleporting one to BingoBoingostan )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( even supposing i devise a means of teleporting one to BingoBoingostan ) << Slow boat with your workshop
asciilifeform: for some reason i immediately picture that story where 'abrams' tank was smuggled to su in diplo-crates, piecemeal
BingoBoingo: Well, Assange taught us Ecuador can't diplo-crate
asciilifeform: can't, won't, i've nfi
asciilifeform: i have difficulty picture how it couldn't, if wanted.
asciilifeform: they like the lolcat exactly where he is, i suspect.
BingoBoingo: Well, you know how Latino elections swing bigger
asciilifeform: afaik ec is a miamistan exactly like the others
BingoBoingo: Sure, but they swing between "Make Miami in Ecuador" and "Make Ecuador Miami Again"
asciilifeform: iirc #2 won election in argentina, made 0 diff except aggravated http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876396 lulz ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 16:25 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/11/argentina-buys-us-soy/ << Qntra - Argentina Buys US Soy
BingoBoingo: If you gotta feed the Argentards soy, why not feed them crap while China's buying the good stuff
asciilifeform: just picture, if they'd kept the whore , the argentards might finally have keeled over and mircea_popescu would possibly be done by now bulldozing the ruins and terraforming like mars
BingoBoingo: They haven't quite locked her up yet
asciilifeform: ( as i understand , it's a++ real estate, supposing you were to redditbag all of the bipedals )
BingoBoingo: Not all of them. Just the moms and older along with the steers
asciilifeform: i'ma leave this one to the experts.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, if you are setting down something heavy for a while Uruguay's got great bedrock
asciilifeform: eh it aint a holography rig, dun need 4 tonnes of ballast
asciilifeform: does need 3phase mains and reasonably room-temp / dehumidified air tho ( vacuum pump )
asciilifeform: but even more than this, needs economic underpin for existence
asciilifeform: i dun have a moolah empire that could run one as public service.
asciilifeform: it's rather like a 'caterpillar'. how many folx do you know who have own 'caterpillar' and dun work it erry day for daily bread.
asciilifeform: !#s from:mircea_popescu coffee grinder
a111: 11 results for "from:mircea_popescu coffee grinder", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amircea_popescu%20coffee%20grinder
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671721 << see also ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 23:13 mircea_popescu: but if i buy coffee grinder for factory, it is to work at all times, and girls will change their schedule to keep it going, not it to accomodate them.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it's rather like a 'caterpillar'. how many folx do you know who have own 'caterpillar' and dun work it erry day for daily bread. << At least 3 come to mind
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: why would they do this
BingoBoingo: Farming
asciilifeform: ditch-digging hobby ??
asciilifeform: ah so they ~do~ work it then
BingoBoingo: No where near every day
asciilifeform: yes but presumably often enuff to not rent
BingoBoingo: That part's harder to discern. Depends on how often the other tractors sink into the muck
BingoBoingo: Or how often the road needs snow plowed
BingoBoingo: Having a rebuilt caterpillar is usually a result of it being inconvenient to rent when it brings the most convenience
asciilifeform: rright, sorta how asciilifeform ended up with various (smaller) irons
asciilifeform: ( it ~is~ possible to rent e.g. oscilloscopes. but by the time you do it, you'll forget why you even wanted )
asciilifeform: it'd be like renting knife and fork to eat dinner
asciilifeform: i kinda suspect that if there's a pro microscopist reading these threads, he's busting his gut laughing just like surgeon may have laughed at the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739725 thread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 18:07 mircea_popescu: you can't do self-amputation.
asciilifeform: 'omfg he wants SEM for 1 shot'
BingoBoingo: Well, for one shot, then another...
asciilifeform: prolly i oughta point out that a '90s surplus SEM won't do jack against 2000s-era ics
asciilifeform: it's only good for bolix.
asciilifeform: ( or rather, for recent crapola you'd need ion accelerator and other items that quickly take the buildup cost to 6 figs , even if bought 2ndhand )
asciilifeform: ... and then you need customers.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it's a biz, there are folx who do it, i've talked to half dozen of'em last yr ( all in cn , 0 in latrine america ) -- but i dun presently know how to break into it
asciilifeform: ( or even ~whether~ to -- rly, become piano tuner just cuz i have this 1 piano that's out of tune.. )
BingoBoingo: In other news, the poor kiosk on the block was apparently a victim of walk in and walk out with something shoplifting for a second time this week
BingoBoingo wonders if Vzla or Brasil might have the right equipment otherwise employed
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: http://lnnano.cnpem.br/laboratories/lme/ << Maybe shoot them a letter?
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/11/feds-issue-fines-and-cuffs-to-older-black-men-and-their-handlers-over-endorsement-deals/ << Qntra - Feds Issue Fines And Cuffs To Older Black Men And Their Handlers Over Endorsement Deals