tmsr - Log 2019-04-24

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asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909543 << sadly fella seems to be mia : ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 20:01 bvt: PeterL: binary ave1gnat is already hosted by asciilifeform; but it's integration into cuntoo is an open problem that ave1 should be best equipped to handle

asciilifeform: !#seen ave1

a111: 2019-02-19 <ave1> Btw asciilifeform, I had to switch my cheap NFS account to a more expensive one as php 5.6 is no longer supported in their new setup. I expect that sometime, at the end of this year, 5.6 will also disappear from "production" sites.

asciilifeform bbl:meat

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909476 << fair enough ; though really most physical mexicans pull double duty. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 16:44 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909375 << This was exceptional in that it involved the uniform wearing sort of troop as opposed to the known to be incredibly successful irregular forces.

mp_en_viaje: sorta like us private/public healthcare. or "governance"

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909478 << very 1990s ro naivite this. i guess they'll figure it out in their own time. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 16:51 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909472 << Well he had his opportunities to demonstrate helpfulness, but apparently he has issues with that. Anyways the locals obsess over the "careers" they get in school, have the very US pre-2008 expectation that they get to neatly slot into those careers (not that this worked in the US outside of that brief window in the 1950s, but the 2008 crisis is when the media narrative changed to counter the

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909486 << same exact way i do. you just go, what the fuck are they going to do. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 18:13 asciilifeform: tbf normally reich subject needs visa for moscow ( i dun know how, precisely, s got around this on moment's notice )

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909492 << right, becayse of couldn't, not because of wouldn't. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 18:20 asciilifeform: ( and that none of these hang off the net, elementarily on acct of clock too slow to run even 10M/s nic.. )

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: a 'couldn't' is worth 9000 'wouldn'ts' eh

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909502 << you know, last i left the us, 2005ish or so, it was a fucking lulz... so fucking empty, i had to forcibly turn mexicana cab driver around, to get to the guy i had to give whatever paper to. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 18:38 feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/us-prepares-to-tackle-illegal-immigration-with-facial-recognition-wank-for-folks-leaving-the-us/ << Qntra -- US Prepares To Tackle Illegal Immigration With Facial Recognition Wank For Folks LEAVING The US

mp_en_viaje: she's like "you can't go back that way".

mp_en_viaje: "like fucking hell you can't ; drive". so she does cuz more affraid of dood in car than vague theoretical doods at us border. who come swarming in, "why is car driving TOWARDS us side on exit". and so i give them the shit, whatever it was

mp_en_viaje: at the time they gave you this piece of paper when you came in, to give them back when you leave.

asciilifeform: were short on ink for passport stamps or wat

mp_en_viaje: nfi, nobody stamped passport on exit

mp_en_viaje: but this was the system then. which is what im saying, the face wank is an upgrade, not a new system

asciilifeform: funnily enuff, BingoBoingostan installed facewank. they dun stamp anyffin at all.

mp_en_viaje: tbh, the whole "border" thing is becoming mostly a joke.

mp_en_viaje flew san jose -> bogota -> munchen w/o passport and so following.

asciilifeform: notbad. ( maybe next time can also pull off w/out tickets ? )

mp_en_viaje: well, lufthansa dropped the ball, so i went munchen-budapest w/o plane tickets yes.

asciilifeform: iirc there was even a fella who flew, for yrs, not only w/out ticket, but... as pilot. ( said, 'hi i am pilot', no one asked for diploma for decade+ )

mp_en_viaje: yeah, http://trilema.com/2013/catch-me-if-you-can/ ; not even bad flick.

mp_en_viaje: but i don't believe in not paying honest merchant. i do believe in not indulging stupid woman's pretense to relevancy and "rule making".

mp_en_viaje: and might i say btw tha tthe new linking log scheeme is a fucking pleasure to use.

asciilifeform: verily

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909511 << this is quite possibly just on point. the original us design, federal with independent states, was strong (and shewed its strength) specifically because of this. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 18:44 BingoBoingo suspects the one state different systems treatment of Chinese "special administrative regions" is an effect of the anti-strategic Chinese languages. They want resort playground with different rules to play and hedge in, when the leases expired back to them they just sorta let the places happen.

mp_en_viaje: meanwhile ustards fucked the model, but this doesn't mean it went away as a model. quite possible the chinos get it, made themselves plausibly-denied federation.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909524 << cool deal ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:19 lobbes: After that, I'm going to start working on re-implementing the auto-bidding functionality (which will also be a vpatch)

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, i dunno, as a factual matter i suspect a wouldn't is worth 9k couldn'ts.

mp_en_viaje: as in, "driver who won't crash your car worth 9k drivers who can't crash your car"

asciilifeform: aha but if it's a given that driver is a monkey -- then the cab had better have no wheels.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909527 << drop gcc entirely ; drop all c code entirely ; rely on tcc as a scripting language to turn whatever snippets of c into object code that we haven't yet thrown away ; and for quick prototyping, where one's stuck getting a mass of 1mn shitlocs interop with 10k loc's worth of a whole universe ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909396 << do you mean going [preinstalled gcc6] -> tcc -> gcc2.95 -> gcc4.7 -> gcc4.9 for cuntoo? or drop gcc entirely, try to get as much as possible running on tcc?

asciilifeform: (this is sovok war machine design philosophy in a paragraph)

mp_en_viaje: the whole point is to turn c into what it actually is -- a sort of javascript the niggers to rakim'd in the head to use computers keep pissing out.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: see further downthread, expanded on this.

mp_en_viaje: so a light and cheap shithead-interpreter

mp_en_viaje: getting tharQ

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 << the idea isn't to get tcc to compile ada. the idea is to destroy gcc -- cut the "useful compilation half" into an ada compiler ; cut the shitlands compilation half into a small weight something else. there is no republican future for gcc as a gcc in the foss / linus-stallman sense of the term. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)

mp_en_viaje: this "gcc is how you call the universal compiler" is cut of the same cloth as "the united states is the name good people give to truth, beauty, and everything good" -- of no import or interest, past pure comedic "lmao check those country bumpkins out, they really believe god was born in mobile"

mp_en_viaje: in any case the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897382 nonsense will NOT outlive me. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:10 mircea_popescu: now in other lulz, check this out : http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.9948-9.10055 "This is a special mix of insertion sort and heap sort, optimized for the data sets that actually occur."

mp_en_viaje: so, to answer the q : get as much as possible of system working on actual systems lang ; get AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE on tcc.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909530 << if this is actually true, would prolly be worth doing. feel free to look into it soemtime. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909254 << i suspect that fixing direct gcc6->gcc4 step involves something like http://archive.is/cBg9N#selection-9.1340-9.1425

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909539 << i don' timagine present binutils can continue as such ; ideally should dissolve into actually functional toolset. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:55 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909440 << this would involve getting binutils under our control - bigger part of these timestamps are added by ar/ld; tbh i even dunno if gcc is responsible for this at all.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re 'gcc ladder', the orig boojum was the 'catch-22' where a musl gcc can only be built w/ another musl gcc , and the only working specimen trinque was able to find in the wild, was a gcc6

mp_en_viaje: yes.

mp_en_viaje: this needn't continue indefinitely, tho.

asciilifeform: ( i.e. this item may be solvable w/ a bit of archaeology )

asciilifeform: gcc per se has no biz 'continuing indefinitely' ( as mp_en_viaje already noted )

mp_en_viaje: yes, it's possible that someone living cca 2005 did something useful with their life, instead of "raising myspace awareness" or w/e the fuck they did back tghen.

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, in general, i do not see there's any need for having a musl gcc in the first place.

mp_en_viaje: see, all this reasoning is informed by experience : back when we started looking at systems design lang, and started discussing ada, i was very adamantly for maintaining options open.

mp_en_viaje: meanwhile its been YEARS, and guess what ? 0 new development on c. everyone wants to write in ada.

mp_en_viaje: if i make someone work with c, it's perceived as a punishment.

mp_en_viaje: thus therefore, i do not see the need to continue supporting c as a mental construct. even having to reimplement "everything" (ie, practically, nothing at all) from outside is preferable to an attempt at continuing c.

asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform not only spent whole life with c/cpp, but still maintains massive cpp horror in saeculum , for bread

asciilifeform: but it aint any way to live.

asciilifeform: let microshit have its c.

mp_en_viaje: the "let there be a javascript interpreter for c, call it tcc or w/e, people can play with if theyr'e bored" is really the outmost of concession i can make to what is, ultimately, a shameful, abortive and utterly reprehensible outgrowth on human culture = the totality of everyone involved in computer systems design and implementatio nfor the past few decades.

asciilifeform: that's how (as described upthread) bolix settled the matter, in '83.

asciilifeform: would've stayed settled, too, if they hadn't wrapped themselves around telephone pole.

mp_en_viaje: and these aren't mere words. it is what i see these people as, from the last poettering to the foremost stallman or linus, including the whole menagerie of "i just wanted to suck dicks" anodyne anons, be they zx wharever or oj whatever or whichever other one.

asciilifeform: ye olde 'notation can cost 80 iq' item. the moment rms picked 'c machine' ecosystem, it after that did not matter one whit how capable/honest/etc were to be the participants. ( and, in practice, demonstrated -- the capable, honest folx, ran off to learn new professions , did not stick around to fiddle with pointerisms )

asciilifeform: sorta how there cannot be a serious engineer in liberia. ( why would he live in liberia )

asciilifeform: ( iirc -- e.g. howard shrobe, 1 of the orig bolix people, went off into medicine. others -- elsewhere )

mp_en_viaje: 'you write c on top of c and wanna talk to me about http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-03#1884206 ? keks. did your mother have any children who lived ?" ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-03 19:24 stratum: If individuals want to communicate using heavily encrypted sneakernet to avoid NSA goons, that is certainly okay by me. But I don't see that happening for the billions any time soon.

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, or as buffett put it back in the day his brain still worked, "when a manager with a reputation for success attempts to tackle a problem with a reputation for intractability, it is the manager's reputation that ends up tarnished"

asciilifeform: as in the old sea story, 'move over, we are a 100,000 tonne battleship' 'no you move' 'no, you, we are battleship' 'we're a lighthouse'

mp_en_viaje: keks

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909552 << this is exactly what i fear we will discover scratching the surface of that magic crate ; as we so regularly have been discovering to date. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 22:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909527 << currently i suspect that tcc & similar is a mirage; and that an actual serious solution would moar resemble the bolix approach, where you have a proper lisp and a ~compact~ + readable c-to-lisp ~in~ it for use with legacy crapola while-needed

mp_en_viaje: nevertheless, order is order, first we scratch, then we discover.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909556 << absolutely. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 22:29 asciilifeform: to properly shoot the 'primacy of c' in the head, gotta remove the 'it is where the self-hosting happens' 1st and foremost.

mp_en_viaje: one of the major things we're working towards here is to construct the ada-centric self-hosting ecosystem.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909564 << and the meat that'll do it will need a planet like saturn to live on. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 23:03 asciilifeform: ^ and before mp asks, yes it's combo of manual typewriter and ink pen, and no it won't in a million years ocr, other than by meat ( and is largely schematics / waveforms anyway )

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909566 << who knows, maybe a 15yo now reading grows up to be useful, actual human being, as opposed to pantsuit mouthbreather. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 23:06 asciilifeform would luvvv to read 'ffa-style' incarnation of such a work, where the chip is 'built up' from empty space in ~hour-long chunks. but prolly this won't exist until asciilifeform writes 1..

mp_en_viaje: at least now they have plain and self-obvious example of what ~should~ do with their life ; so it can't be said you lived in vain.

mp_en_viaje: but it is doubtless worth commenting upon how design-with-a-view-to-wot automatically resolves the "work/education '''disparity'''". ie, they "become" the same exact fucking thing that they were all along.

mp_en_viaje: "bring your children to work day" fucking hell. how can children and adults be distinguished in this sense ? "oh, mp, we in ourdemocracy have arbitrary cutoffs, there's creative people and good at maths people and so on". "fuck you."

mp_en_viaje: the ~exact same process~ through which an acceptable republican artefact is constructed is the ~exact same process~ through which a mind grows into republican form. the way you convince us to use your proggy is the way 15yo learns how to write a proggy we'll use. and so fucking on forever.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909569 << long list of shit they're to answer for. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 23:12 asciilifeform: imho the so-called 'civilized' world ought to have to answer re why it failed to produce a product like this.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: 1st i saw the link to that thing, went 'eh, fossil', then went and ~read~, and 'wtf, where do i buy a chip with even half the doc of this'

mp_en_viaje: ima have to sit down and read these sometime.

asciilifeform: picture if yer bmw came with not only repair schematic but the calculations of the original designer re why cylinder head is this-wide etc

asciilifeform: and the report from metallurgist re why just-so molybdenum % , etc

mp_en_viaje: i'd totally fucking read it.

asciilifeform: that's what that was.

mp_en_viaje: moreover -- it'd totall be worth more like that.

asciilifeform brb:tea

mp_en_viaje shall bbl also.

mp_en_viaje waves bye

asciilifeform: re the 1801 thing -- moar interestingly , author was not content to merely dig up ancient docs, but apparently decapped the dies and verified that these in fact correspond to the physical artifact ☟︎

asciilifeform: !Q later tell bvt ty for digging up the 1801 materials; dun suppose you could get the author in here ? ☟︎☟︎

lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

BingoBoingo: In efforts to stay poor, won't take a free ambulance: https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/la-burocracia-de-asse-freno-la-donacion-de-una-ambulancia-para-minas-2019417152938

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: dunno what is this mythical beast, a 'phree' gift from usg

asciilifeform: aint nosuchthing as free.

BingoBoingo: So it goes. But interesting to see the immune system story told from the other side.

BingoBoingo: And the thing ending over a couple bucks for an apostille

BingoBoingo: Or so the group says. Nothing in the story about Uruguay not wanting junk vehicles dumped here (unless the junk vehicles are new Indian/Chicom bikes)

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'phree gift' from reich invariably comes with 'and we get to appoint a harvard grad as yer minister of health' etc

BingoBoingo: And the immune system kicks in because Uruguayo Pantsuits don't want to be replaced by US Pantsuits

asciilifeform: if the orcs suddenly woke up to this being a bit much of a lopsided exchange for 1 rattled old meatwagen, perhaps some of'em even have sumthing like a brain

BingoBoingo: Hence the "prove you didn't steal the junk ambulance" dance

asciilifeform: old man soros wrecked ru ~entirely via 'gifts' liek this, to the point that still not cleaned up 20y later ☟︎☟︎

BingoBoingo: The entry point for used vehicles to Merosur is Paraguay anyways. They get them from the Japs and convert to American driver's position

BingoBoingo unsure what Harvard Pantsuit would want the salary of a Uruguayo Minister

asciilifeform: the kind that is from orcistan to start with ☟︎

BingoBoingo: Unless they were getting paid with clean clinton corruption

asciilifeform: 1) attend clintonarvard 2) return to orcistan as 'appointee' 3) feather miaminest for 20y 4) decamp, profit!1

asciilifeform: ( famously , why was castro so hated by the lizards. cuz broke ranks b/w '2' and '3' )

BingoBoingo: Well, frontrunner for the National Party nomination "Luis LaCalle Pou" had an uncle killed by the CIA in the 70's.

BingoBoingo: And that's the local "right wing" party

asciilifeform: pretty sure erryone in south amer had 'uncle killed by cia'

asciilifeform: y'know, back when there were ~2~ reichs handing out 'phree' ambulances ☟︎

asciilifeform: an' competing for 'customers'

BingoBoingo: Well guy allegedly polling third in the National Party is Satori with the Russian oligarch wife and legal marijuana bsns selling the pharmacy schwag. ☟︎

BingoBoingo: The old Pantsuitist Party the Colorados have a nearly 90 year old former President running even in their polls with some young derp. Colorados don't ever break 15% in intention to vote. ☟︎

BingoBoingo: Then there's the Fat Forehead Party, their favored candidate is the cuck who was Mayor until he had to quit that job to campaign.

BingoBoingo: Then there's about 20-40 fringe candidates spread across the major parties, their subdivisions, and the "why are they trying to compete on a national scale" parties

BingoBoingo: The USG-ist appearing candidates are the second place guy in the National Party, some fat old Potato whose name begins with L and the other Colorado Guy. Some cuck named Talvi.

BingoBoingo: Talvi has a campaign office a block and a half away. The campaign office is topped by a billboard selling Luis

BingoBoingo: !!up mp_en_viaje

deedbot: mp_en_viaje voiced for 30 minutes.

mp_en_viaje: hola #dos

BingoBoingo: Hola

diana_coman waves

diana_coman: the whole C-thread reads... interestingly from the depths of planeshit client +crystalspace ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: heh.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909684 << poor guy. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 15:56 asciilifeform: !Q later tell bvt ty for digging up the 1801 materials; dun suppose you could get the author in here ?

mp_en_viaje: bvt, do not despair, even if these do not work out, they're still worth doing. depressing as it may be, at least we know, at least we do the homework, etc. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i did short walk through the linked www, believe or not, d00d in fact typed up some of the ancient docs into humanlike text

asciilifeform: ( on top of die shots, transistor recognition, etc )

mp_en_viaje: pretty cool.

asciilifeform: prolly the most valuable vlsi likbez i've found to date, even beats the ancient carver mead schoolbook in some ways ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: strikes me as born-in-50s sorta guy tho. ☟︎

asciilifeform: seems likely

asciilifeform: ( tho folx have been wrong in the past, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876229 ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 02:58 zx2c4: haha, was just curious. i presume you're ancient

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909719 << was thinking, as result of last wk's thrd, 'sane fpga could just as readily replace heathen gpu as cpu' ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:48 diana_coman: the whole C-thread reads... interestingly from the depths of planeshit client +crystalspace

asciilifeform: ... for that matter, pretty much the entire 'iron babel' of nic, gpu, raid, etc

asciilifeform: really one only needs 2 types of ic in the box , fpga and voltage regulators...

mp_en_viaje: hashing gpus are hard to replace. if you organize the misery from say dimm to say ipad cpus, gpus are kinda the next-notable node from dimm up.

asciilifeform: depends whatmeans 'replace'

mp_en_viaje: well, point being, your ideal object would be 80+% identical crystal.

asciilifeform: for 'i'm breaking codez and erry nanosecond counts' cannot replace custom matrix where you manually arranged transistors, no.

asciilifeform: for 'i want 60 frames/sec in 'doom' ' -- yes replace.

asciilifeform: this is sorta the basic idea in e.g. ffa -- 'what's the simplest mechanism that will actually suffice'

diana_coman: in rather insane bits, just counted the "parameters" of an actor entity in eulora's client and there's 40 of them without even counting that some of those are tuples.

asciilifeform: ( ~suffice~ , rather than 'set speed records in guiness book' )

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, not necessarily a matter in those practical terms. a bike / ride-on lawnmower "suffices" as automobile, but it is still ~ridiculous~, specifically by the very poor fit of design to usage.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: you'd be surprised at 99% of what gets baked as 'asic'

mp_en_viaje: and what i'm saying is that any meaningful gpu will be very similar to extant items. i do not expect there is ~any meaningful overlap, from a purely graphical pov, between extant cpu and sane cpu.

asciilifeform: the # of folx who remember how to custom-draw transistors, is quite small.

mp_en_viaje: but i do expect memories will be 99%+ identical, because wtf, banks of cells.

asciilifeform: most of what's baked at e.g. tmsc, is 'verilog synthed' i.e. essentially same as fpga but w/ masked config bits.

asciilifeform: this includes the konsoomer gpus.

mp_en_viaje: im sure.

mp_en_viaje: nah. nvidia never "verilog synthed"

asciilifeform: ( it is interesting, imho, they ~could~ rearrange the cells , but do not, it requires skilled labour )

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i know for a fact that they do.

mp_en_viaje: not even for prototyping, they had some inhouse thing i could never pin down

mp_en_viaje: how ?

asciilifeform: they published a piece re the prototypetron.

mp_en_viaje: yeah, cca 2014 or so, disinfoworks.

asciilifeform: it's a quite large box of fpga, programmed in much same way as asciilifeform prototyped fg.

asciilifeform: they're actually an off-the-shelf item, asciilifeform at one time nearly bought a 2ndhand unit

mp_en_viaje: afaick, that thing was never used.

asciilifeform: nao i did not walk in and see it used. but would be surprised to learn that it wasn't, the temptation is irresistible , on acct of sheer heft of the risk in the biz ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-17 19:49 asciilifeform: asic is a high enuff risk biz that the people who do it, are conservative to the point of 'if this exact thing hasn't been done before, fughetaboutit'

mp_en_viaje: the radeon things, yes, which is why they were never nearly as watt-efficient etc. ☟︎

asciilifeform: intel/amd -- known to use

asciilifeform: ( their designs only ever exist as rtl, starting from 'pentium pro' )

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, nah, listen to me, there's a lot of ways to prove this, including the massive gap in efficiency between the competition and nvidia's chips

mp_en_viaje: right.

asciilifeform: the last x86 product where they bothered to hand-massage transistor, was pentium1

mp_en_viaje: and admittedly nvidia also had some shittier chips in this vein. but they also had a skunkworks core that did something that i dunno what it is.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if you ever get hold of a die shot, it is possible to distinguish with naked eye, when 'compiled from rtl' and when 'hand-massage' . practical example of the former : https://s.zeptobars.com/baikal-Si.jpg

asciilifeform: when you see 'tumour mass', that there's autorouter at work.

asciilifeform: these aint dirt on the lens, they're actually where it put the transistors.

mp_en_viaje: not so hard to decap a 1070 or w/e and looksee.

mp_en_viaje: but they're rather more rectangular than the java-looking atrocities of intel.

asciilifeform: it is entirely not the case that 'no one' hand-massages. but the items with 3bil+ transistors, it is rather impractical proposition to do this for.

asciilifeform: the analogue / dsp folx, still occasionally do it.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: erry die from z80 up has 'large rectangular' , them's the cache srams.

mp_en_viaje: (note, i'm not even remotely saying 100% hand-made. but they had ~something~, that afaik was never found. and it sure as fuck wasn't just a software layer on whatever off the shelf verilogizer.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: lacking even photograph, i cannot pontificate in further detail re nvidia. but also do not automatically conclude on acct of 'faster than amd's' that it were hand-sewn.

asciilifeform: hand-sewing ups the nre cost ~100x.

asciilifeform: cuz you gotta use 'born in '50s' folx.

mp_en_viaje: it just wasn't practical. and no i don' tmean "large rectangles".

mp_en_viaje: but the thing i interpreted that "tumour mass" you talked about to mean was this specific pattern, a sorta circular bundle.

mp_en_viaje: whereas this is, "squarier" however the fuck shall i say this.

mp_en_viaje: not like we have good words to discuss synthetically the subject matter. tho i'd very much like to.

asciilifeform: fwiw nvidia's 'help wanteds' all seem to mention verilog.

mp_en_viaje: yes, but they always hired entry level.

mp_en_viaje: trained in house.

mp_en_viaje: the problem is tho, this doesn't even mean much. by the time tech corp hires senior techs on market, its name becomes hp and their name becomes carly fiorina, the future president of the us.

asciilifeform: this yes

mp_en_viaje: anyway, to sum up this thread before it runs away from us : i expect that if you design your own gpu, and we compare it (through what, who knows, maybe by then phf comes up with a magical differ that woerks on circuit designs) to the top of the range efficiency gpus (~100% of them nvidia products, tho not 100% of the nvidia products) you'll discover they're very similar.

asciilifeform: the orig nvidia simulators noosepiece , ftr. ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: not quite as similar as how alf-designed memory wouild be ; but more similar than ~anything else.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: very similar, how else. asciilifeform's observation was that even 'nvidia, but 50x slower cuz on fpga matrix, still suffices for reasonable gaming' , more like.

mp_en_viaje: i... guess.

mp_en_viaje: i dunno i wanna melt my caps for this 50x slower thing tbh.

mp_en_viaje: (pro tip : diff between mobo without gpu and mobo with gpu is 3x lifetime.)

asciilifeform: no melted caps, simply won't draw on 4096x4096 3d glass display at 200fps or what's the latest wankfad.

mp_en_viaje: even a 30w one has terrible effect on mobo lifetime.

asciilifeform: i dunthink i have anyffin in my boxes that draws whole 30w from pci

asciilifeform: ( even nvidia's cards do not, they have hdd connector for +v )

mp_en_viaje: these be some 1999 cards lol

asciilifeform: i actually have a (heathenisms) box here with '1070'

mp_en_viaje even has old agp vidcards, they draw about 35-50.

asciilifeform: it has ye olde molex 12v in

asciilifeform: draws 200+w , just not from mobo

asciilifeform: cuz why

mp_en_viaje: yes, but it ~still heats it~

BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909764 << There was a window where the Radeons were much more efficient when it came to mining. Depended on the flavor of math getting fed to the card. AMDs loved the repetative bland stuff. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 17:03 mp_en_viaje: the radeon things, yes, which is why they were never nearly as watt-efficient etc.

asciilifeform: it's why you pump air through the thing like vacuum cleaner neh

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, i'm not necessarily discussing the electricity draw ; but the thermic leak trough the connectors.

asciilifeform: this is actual problem, for folx who dun like box to sound like 'hoover' , verily

mp_en_viaje: pump as you will. as a factual matter, conncted gpu fucks your board like a solid drinking habit fucks your slavegirl.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: ever ~drop~ box with gpu mounted, lol

asciilifeform: problem even when switched off.

asciilifeform: sorta why some folx have taken to mounting'em ~externally~ (pcie spec allows for long snake)

asciilifeform: these became off-shelf product in last coupla yrs

mp_en_viaje: lol that's an idea.

asciilifeform: fiddybux or so

asciilifeform: box has atx ps an' pcie backplane, comes with snake.

asciilifeform: '200fps' game fanatics, 'gpu shitcoin' mining people, etc. -- buy by the traincar

mp_en_viaje: im sure.

asciilifeform: ( i.e. mp_en_viaje is not the 1st to notice the absurdity of plugging a 2kg, 200watt eater into pc mobo )

asciilifeform: incidentally 'cray' has this in 1980s. why pc bus had to wait 30 years to become 'snakeable', i have nfi.

asciilifeform: for that matter, i still have nfi why said snake is copper, and not optic.

asciilifeform: ( cray's -- optic. )

mp_en_viaje: possibly because for a long time the optic modems slow.

asciilifeform: they had gigabit+ optic transceiver in '90 or so.

mp_en_viaje: yes but not for 50 cents

asciilifeform: ( seekrit : emitter-coupled logic existed in '70s, worked up to ghz. but not cheap. )

asciilifeform: !#s ecl

a111: 42 results for "ecl", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ecl

asciilifeform: ^ somewhere we had thread

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677793 << & elsewhere ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 18:04 asciilifeform: ecl is a 'black art' incidentally. for instance, it runs 'backwards' voltagewise, with ground-as-positive, and needs negative supply

asciilifeform: still, afaik, used, in radar etc.

asciilifeform: it's the champ, to date, of 'clock at any cost'

asciilifeform: ( and that's on si. on e.g. gallium arsenide, even moar so )

mp_en_viaje: yeah there was a galena thing

asciilifeform: there's half dozen or so 'golden toilet' processes.

asciilifeform: i half-expected 1 or other would be trotted out when 'moor's law' dead. but turned out to be cheaper to simply tell konsoomer to suck it.

asciilifeform: 'buy 32 cores' etc

mp_en_viaje: optics are quite not ready for deployment in this role

mp_en_viaje: nor is it clear anyone did any serious work on them past 30 years.

asciilifeform: dunno, i priced recently raw 6GB/s transceiver, was ~30bux ea.

asciilifeform: for that matter: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-04#1693906 << slower ver. of same, pictured in live fire test of isolated fg. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-04 16:35 asciilifeform: recall also http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/fibertest/fg_isol_sender.jpg + http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/fibertest/fg_isol_receiver.jpg gave similar null result for ~power~.

asciilifeform: worked a++, and that's with hand-cut cheapo plastic fiber.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909696 << considering how fucking worried the pantsuits are about gifts (the whole foundation" ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:29 asciilifeform: old man soros wrecked ru ~entirely via 'gifts' liek this, to the point that still not cleaned up 20y later

asciilifeform: ( fiber is a++ winner, it dun give a shit re capacitance, inductance, other devils of high-freq copper cabling )

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909696 << considering how fucking worried the pantsuits are about gifts (the whole "foundation" wank exists specifically to insulate them from the gifting etc), nobody is surprised trojan gifting'd be their principal outreach strategy. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:29 asciilifeform: old man soros wrecked ru ~entirely via 'gifts' liek this, to the point that still not cleaned up 20y later

mp_en_viaje: in the end, the relationship between capital and power is the principal bojum of ourdemocracy, however you turn it.

mp_en_viaje: the whole "i just want to" item is just an artefact of this same problem ; examtaking is just a manifestation of the same behaviour. the principal-agent problem is the same damned thing. the brokenness of domestic arrangements in the us flow from the very simple "it

mp_en_viaje: s not clear to us anymore how "makes the rules" flows from "brings home the bacon".

mp_en_viaje: and so on.

mp_en_viaje: unions exist specifically because "it's not clear to us anymore that owning the machinery means owning the slaves attending the machinery" ; and i don' tmean clear to the slaves. i mean clear to the ~owners~.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909699 << lotta these. the us shitversities exist principally through this orc anointment process these days. not that it'll last, but that's pretty much the last remaining octopus leg, not ablated yet. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:30 asciilifeform: the kind that is from orcistan to start with

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909706 << fu, ROMANIA ALSO!!! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:36 asciilifeform: y'know, back when there were ~2~ reichs handing out 'phree' ambulances

asciilifeform: lol i recall mp_en_viaje's bogota piece

mp_en_viaje: and much to caer/cominform despair, independently!!!

asciilifeform: shoemaker built'em, wat, reactor

mp_en_viaje: drove people up the fucking wall, "what the fuck is wrong with these people". warlike gnat...

mp_en_viaje: do you know that joke btw, with the olteni and the chinese ?

asciilifeform: hm?

mp_en_viaje: there's a small ethnic group in sw romania, "olteni". one day they declare war to china.

asciilifeform still has a... towel. that father bought in bucharest, where it came from china -- in contravention of sovok fatwa

mp_en_viaje: chinese folk spend a while trying to figure out wtf happened, eventually manage to spot this Oltenia on german wehmacht maps from the 1800s.

mp_en_viaje: they send some people over, to negotiate. "why do you want to go to war with us ?"

mp_en_viaje: "none of your fucking business"

mp_en_viaje: "but do you understand there's more than a billion chinese people living in peace bla bla bla ?"

mp_en_viaje: at which point the olteni are a little taken aback, and one guy in the 2nd rank whispers in boss' ear

mp_en_viaje: "if there's really that many of them... where the fuck we gonna bury them all ?!"

asciilifeform: ha

mp_en_viaje: kinda ro mindset (shoemaker was from oltenia).

asciilifeform: iirc this in fact literally played out in iraq war council

mp_en_viaje: haha. kinda.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909709 << is she hawt ? did i miss the qntra pics of her (hopefully closely shaved) snatch ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:40 BingoBoingo: The old Pantsuitist Party the Colorados have a nearly 90 year old former President running even in their polls with some young derp. Colorados don't ever break 15% in intention to vote.

mp_en_viaje: inquiring minds!

BingoBoingo: The young one is a cucky dude

BingoBoingo: Old one is oldgendered former mancuck

mp_en_viaje: wrong link

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909708 << meant this ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:38 BingoBoingo: Well guy allegedly polling third in the National Party is Satori with the Russian oligarch wife and legal marijuana bsns selling the pharmacy schwag.

mp_en_viaje: damn easy to misclick on this damned thing.

mp_en_viaje: and speaking of harvard educated failures, what ever became of the "internationally recognized" redditpresident of venezuela ?

BingoBoingo: https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/news/a4018/ekaterina-rybolovleva-juan-sartori-skorpios-wedding/ << The candidate and the wife

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: iirc they switched to 'let's hijack vz embassies abroad' algo

mp_en_viaje: http://trilema.com/2015/heres-what-they-dont-tell-you-when-they-bring-you-those-papers-to-sign/#selection-119.156-119.326 much ?

BingoBoingo: Maduro's letting the derp go derping about impotently.

asciilifeform: i have nfi what's in the '???' in their 1) ... 2) ??? 3) profit eqn.

BingoBoingo: Maduro seems to be following the "why jail him when everyone can see all the nothing he's capable outta cuffs" theory

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, WE DID IT REDDIT!!!

asciilifeform: they oughta have separate www, 'diddit'

mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, so far i must say im quite impressed with the approach. maduro somehow beats gaddafi in the field ?!

asciilifeform: to catalogue the great feats they 'did'

mp_en_viaje: very unexpected at mp central ; wouldnt have made the book this way in a mn years.

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yeah, and next drosophila will come with fiscal receipt dispenser.

asciilifeform: lol

mp_en_viaje: "ate plum juice..."

BingoBoingo: Well, Maduro is very popular in Vzla. Actually has the police protecting Guaidó from the angry mobs at his rallies.

mp_en_viaje: keks

mp_en_viaje: fucking turned things around, this idiocy. i had nfi maduro is actually popular. i still half don' tbelieve it. but hard to argue with the facts.

asciilifeform: tbf gaddafi also was popular. ( handed out, what, half mil $ of phree errythings to erry subject erry yr ) , didn't save'im

mp_en_viaje: but anyway, pretty epic case of co-opting usg.blue's "orange revolution" material into court fucktoy / clown. i suppose he got the typically pantsuit fake opposition as cheaply as could be had.

BingoBoingo: Well, wins the elections by big margins. Allows local "collectivo" groups of men broad authority.

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, this is what impresses me. it's like watching hedgehog manage what hippo couldn't do.

mp_en_viaje: the intervening decade must bear most of the brunt of the explanation, otherwise i simply dun see it. maduro is no fucking gaddafi are you kidding me ?

BingoBoingo: It's the argentine thing where the bottom 2/3 of the population in Vzla is incapable of disagreement. Evil yankees keeping us down... etc.

mp_en_viaje: bottom libya wasn't that substantially different.

mp_en_viaje: at least not in my experience.

BingoBoingo: Well, it was still North African population.

mp_en_viaje: anyway. "western coallition" days are entirel ythe fuck over, no doubt about that. failed in turkey, failed in venezuela, there's 0 left for them.

BingoBoingo: Vzla is... Latino

BingoBoingo: Then there's the decades the Colonel had getting comfortable because the thought Europe wanted him to keep Africa in Africa. Maduro's always had the US beast bearing down on him, entire regime has had to be kept on a war footing.

BingoBoingo: As far as I can tell Maduro is more entrenched than any of the Middle Eastern strongmen the US targetted.

mp_en_viaje: i dunno the problem was anything to do with that, gaddafi was the paragon of non-alligned warlike. he even enaged in very meaningful pre-mp cultural war, what with his tall busty harem girls and whatnot.

mp_en_viaje: the problem, i suspect, was that he was getting old and had no succession. at least that was my understanding of the collapse at the time.

mp_en_viaje: a forty-something galivanting about the world having girls strip naked in the middle of the mall to try on slutwear and kneeling in supermarkets is very unlike an eighty-something visiting new york in his tent.

BingoBoingo: Well the Colonel was outwardly warlike, and... succession problem. If Maduro kicks it there's probably someone from the pipefitter's union to take the reigns.

asciilifeform: oblig ghaddafi thrd ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:44 asciilifeform: 'When the glorious Muammar Kaddafi, in his blue bournouse, or in his uniform, appear on the telly, the domesticated inhabitant of the sanitaria jerks from fright. 'Monster,' 'terrorist,' 'evildoer,' public enemy number one - the media calls him, led by its disdain for all that is envigorating (and, on top of it all, foreign), and pushed by false information supplied by CIA... ...his very existence is a rebuke,

BingoBoingo: And the old word folks had centuries to faction up. In the new world when the Latinos faction up generally its about drug business instead of holy war.

mp_en_viaje: hm

BingoBoingo: Do the cocaine folks want Maduro or USG.CIA who will surely steal their product and attack them.

BingoBoingo: I mean, when you were in Argentina, did you see strong tribal identities outside of the outsider communities?

mp_en_viaje: yes. old women "theatrical stars"

mp_en_viaje: most ridiculous thing anyone coudl imagine, the sarah bernards of 2010s argentina

BingoBoingo: And were the old bags in a rush to take up arms against anyone?

mp_en_viaje: arms scharms.

mp_en_viaje: fuck, i don' teven want to talk about it. fucking infuriating shithole.

BingoBoingo: Anyways. Any group of organized men in Vzla have more to win from more Maduro than they have to win by defecting

mp_en_viaje: evidently.

BingoBoingo: Cuba held after the soviet union's fall for what seems to be the same reason. The Latinos who didn't want it already left.

mp_en_viaje: well, ima bbl!

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/uk-high-court-declared-gsm-gateway-ban-illegal/ << Qntra -- UK High Court Declared GSM Gateway Ban Illegal

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909552 << i grok this. the question is, how much work should go into cuntoo? ☝︎☟︎

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909627 << added to the list of things to try ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 14:43 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909530 << if this is actually true, would prolly be worth doing. feel free to look into it soemtime.

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909614 << i can do some experiments with tcc-based linux; this may be a too big chunk if i start with cuntoo, but should be possible with some very minimal linux. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 14:33 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909527 << drop gcc entirely ; drop all c code entirely ; rely on tcc as a scripting language to turn whatever snippets of c into object code that we haven't yet thrown away ; and for quick prototyping, where one's stuck getting a mass of 1mn shitlocs interop with 10k loc's worth of a whole universe

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909683 << do you mean the pdf/word in the vm1 directory? or whole repo with e.g. http://archive.is/E2iex#selection-3535.0-3561.54 ? if there is a single document, i'd definitely read ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 15:54 asciilifeform: re the 1801 thing -- moar interestingly , author was not content to merely dig up ancient docs, but apparently decapped the dies and verified that these in fact correspond to the physical artifact

bvt: *the cited link should've been http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909727 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:51 asciilifeform: prolly the most valuable vlsi likbez i've found to date, even beats the ancient carver mead schoolbook in some ways

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909723 << i will definitely write him ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:49 mp_en_viaje: bvt, do not despair, even if these do not work out, they're still worth doing. depressing as it may be, at least we know, at least we do the homework, etc.

bvt: he worked with 580BM80A as well http://archive.is/01iuf, http://archive.is/RKAEx , also with feature recognition

bvt: though to my understanding he uses zeptobars photos at least sometimes (http://archive.is/pjqcH#selection-1139.1-1483.105 , http://archive.is/K1Efi#selection-3499.55-3503.154)

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909728 << he indeed looks very experienced http://archive.is/VOaOV#selection-1166.1-1192.0 http://archive.is/nmzYW#selection-3746.0-3773.78 http://archive.is/FeiYm#selection-3319.1-3321.349 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 16:51 mp_en_viaje: strikes me as born-in-50s sorta guy tho.

asciilifeform: bvt: ha, i was quite certain i'd seen the fella before. turns out ~this~ was where.

asciilifeform: pretty interesting.

BingoBoingo: In local news the courts are the only thing keeping natural gas running in the country. https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/justicia-prohibio-en-forma-definitiva-control-obrero-a-sindicato-del-gas-201942417033

BingoBoingo: Apparently an African swine fever is ripping through China and killing their pork in positive local news.