log
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BingoBoingo: !Xbuy 154mn 72 500 WFF, WU esta bien
auctionbot: Buy order # 1046 created by BingoBoingo: 500 WFF, WU esta bien Opening: 154mn ecu Ending: 2019-04-07 12:12:39.925433 UTC (71 hours)
BingoBoingo: ^ Pizarro Price Setting Auction Live. Starting price same as last month's.
mp_en_viaje: ahhh.
BingoBoingo: How's the bread situation?
mp_en_viaje: oh holy god, i have found the deli fucking mecca.
mp_en_viaje: there's this snoot or sloot or w/e stand right between the green/red line interconnect in hauptbanhof (central station). these people...
mp_en_viaje: i mean, their sandwiches use the same brie i use. they have pastrami with horseradish mustard i wouldn't be ashamed to offer to visiting lords at my own table. nothing's older than an hour maybe, the romaigne as crispy as if i just picked it myself
mp_en_viaje: and the bread... the bread... i mean, specialist slave, been making bread for years, this is better. FIRST TIME anything like this ever occured.
mp_en_viaje: obviously they do it italian style, with mother dough, stone ovens, it is definitive and unmitigated perfection.
mp_en_viaje: easily the best eats in all munchen are to be found at this humble deli stand in the subway ; and my remembered new york's delis would be pressed to compete.
mp_en_viaje: just a buncha lebanese (i think) doods, with the dedication, permitting mediterranean tradition to finally meet frankish iron.
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, aren't you glad you asked ?
BingoBoingo: I am very glad indeed
mp_en_viaje: that stand is worth fucking driving here.
BingoBoingo: So far it sounds like the migrants are beating the Germans at the civilization thing to get that sorta praise
mp_en_viaje: like i said somewhere about films, some people were put on this earth to make cinmatographic equipment ; some people to use said equipment to actually make films.
mp_en_viaje: the two some peoples aren't necessarily the same.
BingoBoingo: Like the Uruguayos and their beef. The ones who raise beef are masters of Beef. The ones who don't can't cook in a way that does the beef justice outside of the asado tradition.
mp_en_viaje: quite so.
mp_en_viaje: but anyway, day 1, i'm walking through subway, buy a pretzel at random stand. i take one bite and recall girl off escalator. "taste this!"
mp_en_viaje: so we turn back and buy two more. buttered pretzels, wunderbar, i hand out a five they give out some coins change.
mp_en_viaje: the dood is al lproud, "you come back, because is good! yes ?" "yes, i say". "i know you, i see. you like, you come back" "precisely"
mp_en_viaje: day two, ~20 euro worth of fare
mp_en_viaje: day three, they're handing me cents in response to 50 euro bill. win is win-win for the win.
BingoBoingo: We've got restaurants serving Argentine feedlot beef (Granted they do have to label it as FEEDLOT lest the beef police beat them)
mp_en_viaje: such sadness, the decay of argentine beef production.
BingoBoingo: Unlike Argentina who killed their beef export market to feed the derps, Uruguay is still grass fed premium export market product because Uruguay knows they starve if they can't export
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-04#1906894 << this is both persuasive in theory and observed in practice. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-04 12:04 diana_coman: re relish or not I quite suspect many would be way happier if they didn't "have to unique"
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, thing is, not like the morons are using the pampas for anything else anyway. but no, why use bsas as a port and go inland. let's all move into "capital" and eat each other's farts.
mp_en_viaje: in retrospect, it's the bittersweet kind of irony typical of how the world actually works that the crowning opus of argentine govt fantasy was called vaca muerta
mp_en_viaje: the cow... it has died.
mp_en_viaje: in other news, the howling beauty of asciilifeform 's latest production haunts me. diana_coman has a point yo, absolutely should be an article on yer blog. not like it's not been done before.
mp_en_viaje: "and when he fell down without glamour or grace but a cry of 'attack!' frozen into his face all of Earth could not find slabs of marble so tall to carve him as high as he stood in his fall!"
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: orig was from r. rozhdestvensky , same dood who did intro to '17 moments of spring'
mp_en_viaje: supposedly "there's a lot of statues available all around, in the shape of marble chunks. all you have to do is get them out -- but careful to not hurt them trying". it's a great story, it's been making the rounds for more than a century, but... what do you do if there actually ISNT such a thing as a chunk large enough ?
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yes, and it is fine russian. i daresay it is finer english.
asciilifeform spent last 24hr in delerium fever in bed, soon to go back thar
BingoBoingo: Malaria?
mp_en_viaje: see what happens if you walk around fo rhours upon hours in the cutting wind clad in nothing but thin nearly see-through tropical bimbo outfits ?
mp_en_viaje: o wait, that's not you, that's someone else.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, seriously though, paracetamol, water, whatever it takes, do not deliriumfever. it is a fine way to burn the last 5% of cns.
mp_en_viaje: a point of no consequence to most people, who do not have the last 5%. you probably want to keep yours though.
asciilifeform: if indeed how it worx, prolly burned it off long ago, spent good % of childhood contracting erry possible infect
mp_en_viaje: well, "spent childhood smoking" is no argument against "smoking is good way to cancer"
asciilifeform: tru
mp_en_viaje: fever is one thing, useful and all ; but it must not get as high as delirium.
asciilifeform: i think possibly my calibration is off, when measured was 38. but still feels like inside of head is swamp water
mp_en_viaje: well no, delirium is when there's horses coming out of the lamp and stuff like that.
asciilifeform: ah these not yet
mp_en_viaje: generally ~42ish
mp_en_viaje: anyway fever over 40 is medical emergency for very good reasons, so. keep measurin'.
asciilifeform will bbl : back to horiz. pos.
mp_en_viaje: gotta keep the swampwater level.
mp_en_viaje: actually, it;s still imperfect. here, final :
mp_en_viaje: "and when he fell down without glamour or grace but a cry of 'attack!' frozen into his face all of Earth could not find slabs of marble so tall as to carve him as high as he stood in his fall!"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-04#1906898 << but could she buy russia is the question ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-04 20:58 feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/bezos-deals-35-billion-usd-in-amazon-stock-to-wife-for-splitting/ << Qntra -- Bezos Deals: 35 Billion USD In Amazon Stock To Wife For Splitting
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, http://qntra.net/2019/04/46-pantsuitist-candidates-already-lined-up-for-presidential-primary-showdown/ << deliberate misspelling to suggest "putain" or accidental misspelling that suggests putain ?
BingoBoingo: fixed, vowel shift strikes again
mp_en_viaje: in other randoms, it occurs to me the future of aviation's gotta be ballistic.
mp_en_viaje: imagine this wonder : no more wings, airplane is a tube, 20 or 50 or w/e rings, with a dumbwaiter in the middle i guess, people seated around it. a rocket basically, it goes up and then down.
mp_en_viaje: current airplanes have a "flight altitude" because of the wings derpitude, and it's a value in tension between the needs for air friction to support the bucket and the disadvantage of air friction burning fuel.
mp_en_viaje: yet it is ~fundamenally geometrically incorrect~ to fly in this manner. the correct way to move from point a to point b is to go to a point c far enough so that A CHANGE OF ANGLE translates in the change of projected position on earth's surface from a to b.
mp_en_viaje: the cost to make point c 500 or so km as opposed to the current 10 isn't THAT significant, considering the air is rather thin past the first 5-6km anyway. yes it's expensive to defeat gravity, but not AS expensive, because it scales with square of distance anyway, by the time you've done 10 out of 500 you've done such a large chunk of the work already...
mp_en_viaje: wings are a quaint artefact of the propeller era ; as commercial airliner no longer actually uses propellers, there's no objective reason to stick to the wing design.
mp_en_viaje: now, this is certainly not worth doing if you're going from paris to berlin, and probably not even to go from milan to minsk. but there's approximately no other way to take me from san jose to munchen in less than 10 hours besides this.
BingoBoingo: ICBP is the future
mp_en_viaje: ikr!
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hope you get well soon! and no, don't get to delirium (or even serious shivers as that's likely to come first anyway)
auctionbot: Buy order # 1046: 500 WFF, WU esta bien Heard: 150mn from PeterL. Ending: 2019-04-07 12:12:39.925433 UTC (59 hours 30 mins)
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/gps-disciplined-time-to-experience-undisciplined-event-this-weekend/ << Qntra -- GPS Disciplined Time To Experience Undisciplined Event This Weekend
bvt: !!up OriansJ
deedbot: OriansJ voiced for 30 minutes.
OriansJ: !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Ppnt8/?raw=true
deedbot: BDA9B87D4B1F46D4D5616035212E02A02E1A8FB7 registered as OriansJ.
bvt: !!rate OriansJ 1 stage0 author
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6ojPb/?raw=true
bvt: !!v 3E663D0A962864DA7A238FA8497667A046916568FA36ED6112CEAE9C25A9FBAE
deedbot: bvt rated OriansJ 1 << stage0 author
OriansJ: So I hear there is some interest in bootstrapping architectures here ☟︎
OriansJ: !!up
deedbot: You may not $up yourself.
bvt: indeed there is; the relevant thread is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-18#1903170 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-18 15:31 asciilifeform: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/mes-part-1-stage0/#selection-29.94-29.340 << imho ~100% of the attempts on record , made exactly same mistake -- they assumed that 'architecture-specific aspects creep into the design of the boostrapping process' only concerns ~what is there~ in the arch, and not ~what is not there~ (e.g. sane memory management, type tags) . if you dun put the complexity of certain necessary sanities where it belongs -- i
bvt: so far everything points into the direction opposite of linux/c (http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/ may be interesting)
bvt: of course, ada/gnat is too complex for bootstrapping as-is, but i guess equivalent safety properties would be still required
OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors. ☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: To be honest if it wasn't for wanting to support developers who use division; M2-Planet wouldn't have even included support for it and honestly bootstrap hardware really doesn't need that complexity
BingoBoingo: !!up OriansJ
deedbot: OriansJ voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: OriansJ: Well right now we have some people working on flensing a minimal linux from Gentoo-MUSL and other people building utilities in ADA
OriansJ: thank you BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: diana_coman put together a crypto library, ave1 has a leaner GNAT, and asciilifeform has a bignum library and other products.
OriansJ: BingoBoingo: well I guess we need to discuss short term vs long term expectations as those pieces seem to be multiple pieces pulling in different directions ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Well, they tend to build on each other. The Linux (dubbed Cuntoo) is to escape all of the distributions constantly changing the base and tools.
BingoBoingo: The constant time bignum work helps to inform the crypto work
BingoBoingo: http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 << FFA, the author asciilifeform is dealing with a fever, but he is usually around
BingoBoingo: !!rate OriansJ 1 Loaning voice
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LN8mM/?raw=true
OriansJ: Linux is much too big for a bootstrap core piece
BingoBoingo: !!v 8733D65D9BE134634734EDA7D4BD9D91B09A1BB8D6A1370D7CCE24EA546CEE30
deedbot: BingoBoingo rated OriansJ 1 << Loaning voice
BingoBoingo: Indeed Linux is.
BingoBoingo: But gotta have a fairly hygenic platform to build things from and deploy them on, so trinque has been working on capturing a hygenic and stable one.
OriansJ: well let me ask it this way; are you planning to use a posix subset or a subset which will portable upon posix and other OS bases? ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Eventually the direction seems to be leading it towards burning the whole stack down, POSIX and all.
BingoBoingo: But we have people deploying things in the present and the things have to have something while the burning continues.
OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I agree POSIX has a great many flaws but there are some ideas inside of it worth preserving; especially in regards to bootstrapping. ☟︎☟︎
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << well, this depends on the subset of ada; re contributors - this is a known issue ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
BingoBoingo: This isn't quite an area I'm incredibly specialized in, hopefully others can chime in.
BingoBoingo: OriansJ: Anyways, with my rating you can voice yourself by sending a private message to deedbot
OriansJ: Thank you BingoBoingo
bvt: to my understanding there are two questions: 1. what are the requirements to the architecture 2. what is the first interim stop after a post-M1 assembler? ☟︎
bvt: i.e. re 1 you opted for architecture where instruction encoding is easy to do by hand
bvt: but are there any other features that help the bootstrap? even if this increases hardware complexity a bit
OriansJ: 1) Did you mean in regards to minimal hardware requirements or the set which would make it a host platform worth using after the bootstrap is done and 2) Generally a higher level language such as Ada or C.
bvt: re 2, after a restricted ada assembler, should a ada-dos be built? mes assumes that linux kernel is a given, which imho is a big hole in the process
OriansJ: bvt: well believe it not; previously most architectures were easy to encode by hand (PDP-11, PDP-10, Vax, 6502, z80, 8086) but MIPS changed the game by showing with high enough languages one can be brain dead in regards to human understanding of the encoding rules and squeeze a drop of extra performance out.
bvt: re 1, both worth using (but no lisp cpus here yet) and with features useful for bootstrapping
OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap. ☟︎☟︎
bvt: unfortunately i've worked mostly with x86, so the only other assembler i've seen was arm64 (did not look at it's instruction encoding though)
OriansJ: well the only extremely useful feature for bootstrapping hardware architectures have is clean encoding and a sane subset of operations that make working with strings and structs easy to do in assembly. ☟︎
BingoBoingo returns to Accounting and Spanish Practice lair
OriansJ: actually I am extremely familiar with ARMv7's instruction encodings as I have been porting M2-Planet to it recently (boy it is a shitshow)
OriansJ: Big Endian instruction and data encoding seem the most obvious great ideas for simplifying the task of bootstrapping (especially in regards to troubleshooting) ☟︎
OriansJ: although if one wanted good backwards compatability with x86 and the rest; simply add load/store instructions that work on little endian data ☟︎
OriansJ: an 8bit immediate can be very useful for dense code and it would fit most bootstrapping constants if it is signed; support for 16, 32 and up immediates makes supporting compilers for C/Ada easier to write but it isn't a real issue if you have support for IP relative loads of 32bit and up values
OriansJ: add with carry (in, out and in/out); substract with borrow (in, out and in/out) really simply the task of writing arbitrary precision libraries in assembly
bvt: re add with carry, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913#selection-2329.9-2347.129
OriansJ: If one doesn't want to have a boot rom; one needs either a hardware tape reader (which writes tape to memory on power on and jumps to address 0 to run it or a toggle board. A serial bus just moves the bootstrap trust issue to another piece of hardware ☟︎
bvt: yes, i agree that a simple and clear boot sequence is a requirement
OriansJ: hence why I assumed a hardware mechanism for loading paper tape into memory and setting all registers to zero and then boot; as it eliminates the bootloader and the operating system entirely from the question.
bvt: yes, with tape writers/serials, os can be delayed much further; persistent storage would complicate bootstrap a lot.
bvt: (iirc asciilifeform has a SU keyboard-driven prom burner, which may be a valuable device for bootstrap)
bvt: i guess asciilifeform will comment tomorrow if he feels good enough (gute besserung!); i have to go to sleep right now
OriansJ: well, I guess a really important question to ask is at what level of lithography people here actually have trust? (1 transistor, AND Gate in TTL, 100 Gate ALU, 1000 Gate ULA, 10000 Gate Asic, .... FPGA, 1B+ gate CPU, etc) ☟︎☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: As for the operating system floor; there is a micro-posix subset that might be of interest as it would be enough for bootstrapping full operating systems but not complex enough to have anything non-deterministic. ☟︎