asciilifeform: meanwhile, in today's gnat retardations : apparently it is impossible to use ( but can define!!!11 just fine ! ) a generic that takes a String as 'in', without secondary stack.

asciilifeform: because somebody's mother dropped him etc

asciilifeform: previously , from last 2+yrs of reading docs, i laboured under the impression that the only process that demands secondary stack, is ~returning~ variably-lengthed objects. rather than simply passing'em forward as 'in' param. which in erry context OTHER than generic, worx . ☟︎

asciilifeform: diana_coman, phf , et al ^

asciilifeform: ( how ran into this : sneak preview of mmap demo : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VDYWv/?raw=true << path is set cleanly, as part of the generic invocation. but turns out this dun work (unless secondarystackism is enabled) , as somewhere internally it tries to ~return~ the string ☟︎

asciilifeform: fucking outrageous.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865742 << diddled cable, port, etc would not know the on-chip salt. ☝︎

asciilifeform: ( operator of box -- knows, it'd come printed on box, uniq per unit )

asciilifeform: prolly not worth the bother, but in principle solid imho

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865735 << i took a stab at this 2y ago, was very frustrating on acct of asic-baking not being a 'cash and carry' process like e.g. pcb-baking, but a heavily meat-powered affair where the derps want to 'get to know you' to figure out how much they can fleece ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: there's a coupla 'small scale' fabs, but on close examination smell like ripoff, they ship with literally 0 guarantee of yield , and in laughable qty , and with laughable transistor count, and -- to add insult to injury -- die packaging not included, you gotta somehow find someone to do it, somewhere ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: granted in past 2y since i last looked, the mythical beast of 'small fab' could have been born

asciilifeform: ( i omit to mention ~large~ fabs, given as if you aint representing a large and known $$$ concern, they dun even return calls )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865738 << 8192 , if can be fit, then can have 4096b rsa without 'bignum', lol ☝︎

asciilifeform bbl

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865782 << dun matter if yer an admiral, or emperor, you got 1 arse. the node you ~generate~ tx on, ~is~ a battleship. ☝︎

asciilifeform: not to mention that even 'soldier' noad, is not actually cheap, costs like horse not like goat. ( considering that you want ssd, something like a respectable net pipe, uninterrupted current, distance from mordor, if available, etc )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865788 << separated '/tmp' is not imho entirely worthless, i've set up boxen where it lives in ramdisk, where imho it belongs ☝︎

asciilifeform: ssd wear is a thing. ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865777 << aite, we can revisit if he asks ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865758 << imho worth linking to the prev thread : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-08#1579598 ☝︎☝︎

asciilifeform: ( the other sub-$1mil fab is mosis co., but it is in usa, serves primarily usg, and dun publish prices, in the past i tried to get estimate from it but without success )

asciilifeform: current cmp co. price schedule >> https://mycmp.fr/technologies/price-list.html

asciilifeform: here's what i was able to find , via the pdf turd : base charge is 700 -- 12000 euro / mm^2 , depending on density ( 0.35uM to 28nm ); this gets you 25 ~bare~ dies , + 'phree 15 if available' ;

asciilifeform: plus 'shipping and eu export fees'. but the other big hit is packaging cost : 30 - 100 eu. ~per chip~, depending on # of contacts / shape of can. ☟︎

asciilifeform: a reasonable die is 4-10 mm^2 .

asciilifeform: ( if yer baking cpu, or fpga, or other item large enuff to make the game worth the candles )

asciilifeform: nao multiply it all by 2 or 3, because that's how many shots it usually takes to properly polish off ic product.

asciilifeform: sooo taking only the lower bounds ( 4mm^2 ; 700 eu. per mm^2 ; 30 eu. per tin can ) and not counting eu fees / taxes / exorbitant shipping couriers , and assuming 25 , we end up with a figure of 3550 eu, 'old toyota' gets you 25 units, some of which may even work...

asciilifeform: per my reckoning, you can ~maybe~ fit a '386' in these.

asciilifeform: ( ~300k transistor )

asciilifeform: which is not so bad, quite enuff for a mips ( or even the old bolix , supposing anyone had the layout for it ) but laughably small for e.g. fpga.

asciilifeform: the 3550 is per run, if it wasnt obv.

asciilifeform: the other thing i oughta mention, is the amt of sweat required. if asciilifeform were a free man, could do it in perhaps a year. but at present-day capacity, would not dare to even try.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865790 << i sat for 2h last night reading 'standard' and 'rationale', and was not able to determine ! will require extensive dig into the gnat src, i suspect. ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865831 << it's a hand-cranked 'for small runs' shop, 1 of 2 known to exist. hence the riotous per-unit pricings. ☝︎

asciilifeform: i expect they use meat hands, with microscopes, to package.

asciilifeform: and yes if you instead spend 2-3mil you get wafer, cut, and package, from china etc. but we were discussing 'minimal' fabs..

asciilifeform: it's sorta like the outfit we had FG pcb baked in, but moar extreme.

asciilifeform: hrm

asciilifeform: i was originally speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865751 dig. ☝︎

asciilifeform: ( and mircea_popescu seems to concur with my verdict, they're ripoffs )

asciilifeform: this screamingly cries for a cn-speaking fella.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's suppose we make the req'd contact. what wouldja want to fab 1st ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've outlined several items, historically. will summarize for the l0gz, in order of descending ( per asciilifeform's lights ) universality : 1) sane fpga 2) sane minimal cpu 3) 8192-bit arithmetizer ( a la ye olde weitek! but for ints ) 4) 2+3 , if somehow can be fit into 1 die 5) 1chip carrierless radio ( per thread ) 6) sane ethernet controller .

asciilifeform: possibly incomplete list, but roughly it.

asciilifeform: why not ? it's the simplest item, and theoretically the others can be made from it.

asciilifeform: and pretty much the ideal 'nonspecificity of diddling' platform, it is quite impossible to meaningfully boobytrap fpga fabric if you don't have foreknowledge of what will go into it and precisely where.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall ice40 ? simple grid of LUTs, + matrix of programmable interconnects.

asciilifeform: for that matter current FG is baked on fpga, from evil old xilinx.

asciilifeform: buncha gates, as many as can fit, and a programmable switching matrix, a la old telco , look up tables made of 4-6 bits of sram that turn a given unit into 'and' , 'or', 'xor', half-adder, straight wire, whichever is necessary. i dun know how to more rigorously define, it is one of the simplest devices, straight homogeneous grid of sram cells plus a couple hundred (thousand, in larger devices) 'express lanes' made of straight metal,

asciilifeform: to use as bus

asciilifeform: 'heavy iron head on a wooden stem'

asciilifeform: same level of description

asciilifeform: FG is baked on fpga.

asciilifeform: for 'escher object' it worx pretty well.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for design that actually fits inside, you end with exactly 'slow asic', with the added win that it's a homogeneous object with no e.g. 'and here is where he will rsa and here is where the low bit of multiplier will live' sabotage target available to enemy mole in vendor plant.

asciilifeform: i disagree -- fpga is analogous to gutenberg's movable type; classical 'asic per design' to chinese whole-plate.

asciilifeform: thing's existed since mid-80s, the pluses and minuses of it are well-documented

asciilifeform: ( orig ancestor was the PAL. there were PALs in yer ro 'spectrum' clone. )

asciilifeform: there's 2 well-known minuses. 1 is that yer making circuit out of immovable parts, connected by drawing line though multiple elements ( bus lines are generally few ) , this gives you much slower circuit with many fewer logical elements than if you had made the device physically from scratch .

asciilifeform: the other is political, all of the existing vendors obfuscate and keep seekrit the necessary docs to actually program the thing. ice40 happens to have been reversed, but it is ruinously small ( still ~150x bigger than the miniature xilinx i baked FG from, however , but too small even for 4096bit adder )

asciilifeform: what's the 'crutch' ? not spending a $3mil + 1yr delay if there's bug in layout , like 1970s folx had to ?

asciilifeform: there's no 'bitness' in fpga, it's a bag of gates, if you have enuff of them you can made n-bit addder, divider, whatever one likes

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is actually how existing ic industry worx, a good half of the 'asics' are actually 'hard copy fpga', recall the early miner derps threads.

asciilifeform: they prototype on ordinary, sram-based one, then pay to have it metallized.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the sad bit is that conventional asic process , as available today in cn , tw, etc, is also like this. you are forced to use 'standard cells' supplied by vendor.

asciilifeform: they giv'em under nda, too.

asciilifeform: as i currently understand, that means vertical integration, i.e. building the plant.

asciilifeform: $B.

asciilifeform: i wouldn't go so far as 'can't', but we're talking 'lease $B plant for 6mo.' sort of figure.

asciilifeform: it is not available as off-the-shelf service anywhere, afaik, nope.

asciilifeform: i found this out the last time we had 'let's bake ic' thread, and it was thoroughly depressing, put me off subj for 2y..

asciilifeform: lol

asciilifeform: the exact figs can only be obtained by a cn-speaking emissary, i suspect.

asciilifeform: and their magnitude will depend, i also suspect, on how well he plays his cards.

asciilifeform: btw the reason, afaik, why erry fab house forces 'standard cells', is that they have proprietary tweaks to their process , and have lib of cells ( kept seekrit ) that are known to work with said process.

asciilifeform: the actual physical procedure of baking the ic is not as standardized as i previously (to last thread) thought.

asciilifeform: it is at the level of 18th c. cannon-forging, roughly. erry house has 'seekrit sauce'.

asciilifeform: noshit

asciilifeform: imho the race for 'smallest transistor' has been a disaster of incaization -- in '70s there were thousands of ic makers, in '80s -- hundreds, in '90s -- dozens, today maybe 10 .

asciilifeform: the plant gets ruinously costlier, per erry 'shrunk nanometre', and somehow gotta be amortized, and the competition gets thinner an' thinner

asciilifeform: iirc we had a thread re 'ic is deeply incatronic tech' hypothesis

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i doubt any of it belongs in same sentence with word 'soon', we're speaking of just short of mars colony.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: vehehery different class of nre cost, vs engine.

asciilifeform: much moar comparable to satellite biz. a 1-bit mistake costs you coupla $mil.

asciilifeform: and the mistake can be in anyffing, incl. a physical interaction between unrelated components that you did not know were possible.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-18#1863686 thrd, yes ☝︎

asciilifeform: diff in resilience of meat, and in the toughest worx of man, is much greater than e.g. speed diff between jet fighter and ox cart

asciilifeform: nobody has anyffing on meat, period.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol, didja walk in with 5kg of green ? and reply 'here, assess this'

asciilifeform: well if not then how is the dealer to know that yer payment-capable, without 'assess'. or do i misperceive what that meant

asciilifeform: they mostly deal with ~broke orcs, neh. who walk in and 'i want 'buy' house, but i have no money'

asciilifeform: reminds me of process of buying autos in usa. picture, you walk in with chequebook. 'i want toyota' --- 3 hrs later, you MAYBE drive off in a toyota, or more likely yer still fighting over 'no, i do NOT want loan, not at 3%, not 2, not 0 , i want to pay with money' ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( see, if you pay with money, the poor fuck manning the desk makes 0 , he only makes if you pay interest )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i saw truly mindboggling number of unfinished-and-decaying half-built houses in timis

asciilifeform: this gotta be why

asciilifeform: i thought it was 'idjit commissioned build without checking whether he has the whole sum'

asciilifeform: 'we finishes cellar and half of ground floor, nao pay' '...'

asciilifeform: requires buyer, neh

asciilifeform: at some point he gives up guarding it, as it costs sumthing, and the gypsies move in, i suppose this can be seen as a form of 'sell'

asciilifeform: well noshit

asciilifeform: but the idjicy was baked into the act of commissioning the build

asciilifeform: when you haven't with what to pay the whole invoice, or anyone who might ever wish to buy it for even 1% of what it cost

asciilifeform: d00d commissions a 5-story hruscheba-castle in the middle of fucking wasteland. he's bankrupt the second he signs the paper, whether he doubles down later and goes broke-er or not, neh

asciilifeform: there was yet another level of idjicy in ro, that i discovered, where they won't sell the shit to foreigners

asciilifeform: ( even if half-castle owner is willing to sell, it gotta be to ~another~ orc )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'родиной не торгую' (tm)(r)(stalin)

asciilifeform: noshit

asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform is not labouring under delusion , however, that 'if only they sold, i could be sitting in $50k mircea_popescu-grade castle', prolly mitsubishi would own'em all )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-31#1730999 << see also. ☝︎

asciilifeform: orig su version of zek fence was the simplistic 'may not go to foreign devil lands'; modern-day reich's is the moar 'advanced', 'looksy but no touchsy' variant.

asciilifeform: i'm sure mitsubishi also gets what it wants

asciilifeform: i don't pretend to specifically know. point is, it's an anti-personnel mine field, not anti-tank.

asciilifeform: and evidently even mircea_popescu's supply of screaming + patience was finite, the argentines ended up curing him of further attempts, not he -- them

asciilifeform: lolyes

asciilifeform: dun seem that there was so much gold in them hills.

asciilifeform: gotta luvv how even the very name is a lie -- silver ran out there, when , 19th c ?

asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, asciilifeform's interest in ic fab largely revolves around http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-30#1806521 . ☝︎

asciilifeform: presently i have nfi whether this is physically possible, or how in particular -- could be fpga-like device where somehow the components actually ~move~ into position ; or sumthing where you can optically burn away the unused tracks through 'window' ; or some yet entirely unknown trick.

asciilifeform: imho the classical fab is an overwhelmingly incatronic tech, it centralizes unhealthily. ☟︎

asciilifeform: that's part of what makes the trad process cost what it does, yes

asciilifeform: the etches, the masks, the elemental fluorine gas and other joys

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd even settle for something entirely like ice40 but with fuse/antifuse bridges

asciilifeform: in '80s folx briefly made , then somehow evaporated.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: regularly there's word from some d00d who actually bought surplus gear ( see e.g. linked thread ) and 'omfg, i made a diode!' , typically as far as they get ( and it wasn't even because usg.dhs came for his flourine , afaik it did not )

asciilifeform: ( generally if you do it in the part of town where the garages and meth labs are, you dun have usg.problems, at least not immediately )

asciilifeform also quite liked. even learned of previously-unsuspected linuxlol

asciilifeform: srsly, wtf, mips. ☟︎

asciilifeform: i'd like to learn who it was, who mutilated.

asciilifeform: entirely. like the 19th c lumped approximation to maxwell's equations.

asciilifeform: ( still taught in kindergarten, errywhere )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'ion pump' upstack , in olden days when asciilifeform worked as academi-grunt in a bio lab, did many long hours of snore at electrophoretic 'blots', where chromatographic rubbish moves along a gel. and thought 'why not bake ic this day, what if you give it 2nd axis to steer the current' etc

asciilifeform: *thisway

asciilifeform: picture two planar gels (or whatever carrier medium) at orthogonal to one another, meeting in a thin line. the 'vertical' plane is yer 'print head', containing single steerable 'column' of $ion; the 'horizontal' is yer 'paper'.

asciilifeform: each gets x and y steering current.

asciilifeform: nobody says you gotta only run 1 at a time, lol

asciilifeform: can run warehouse full .

asciilifeform: separate 'looms'

asciilifeform: we're speaking of a pocket-sized apparatus .

asciilifeform: nao missing ingredient, find a carrier medium that you can do this to, that can be doped to semiconduct...

asciilifeform: the harder part might be ~conducting~ tracks -- would need sumthing that can be moved electrophoretically (i.e. ionic) but then somehow fuse into metallic conductor.

asciilifeform: ( perhaps when baked ? )

asciilifeform: massively green field

asciilifeform: well no, faberge.

asciilifeform: specifically opposite of industry(tm)

asciilifeform: hence 0 movement , afaik, on any such front.

asciilifeform: you want an end product that conducts thermally as well as electrically, or you get a lighter.

asciilifeform: btw -- and iirc we had the thread -- there are even deeper crackpotteries potentially in the mix : it is possible to have strictly magnetic logic, without semiconductor. if can simply etch fine metal mask, interleaved with insulator, potentially can have a kind of slow 'z80' from miniature toroid logic (as seen in '60s su)

asciilifeform: not even speaking of intelisms -- if you can't remove heat at the rate it is produced by resistance -- you get magic smoke, no matter how you cut it

asciilifeform: water or no water

asciilifeform: ( for n00bz re earlier -- magnetic logic is based on the fact that a transformer core can 'saturate'. ergo you can bake a 'nand' simply from transformer with three windings.

asciilifeform: )

asciilifeform: and there isn't really a theoretically minimal size for it, afaik.

asciilifeform: ( and can have almost anyffing as the core, even vacuum, all transformers saturate )

asciilifeform: !#s setun

asciilifeform: kW if you make it room-sized. potentially mW if microscopic.

asciilifeform: all of this is in re 'you may be able to get away with only metals, no dopants' subthread.

asciilifeform: 'we dun need a 4 ring binder, we dun need a 3 ring binder, we dun need papers, we want information crunched'

asciilifeform: nobody said it ~gotta~ semiconduct.

asciilifeform: for all i know, you could match 'z80' performance with simply modified cathode tube where the beam steers depending on what the state of the phosphor under it was, rather than moving in linear rasters.

asciilifeform: ( in '50s this was a best-selling 'ram' , but afaik nobody thought to de-rasterize it and make it the whole comp )

asciilifeform: ( think 'cellular automaton' )

asciilifeform: we kinda have these already

asciilifeform: ( i cant say i've ever programmed anyffing using http://www.loper-os.org/pub/podvig_radista.jpg method ... )

asciilifeform: tho funnily enuff, in '80s su the standard method of burning ROMs was actually this box with keypad

asciilifeform: you enter addr, then hit FF, or B0, or whatever, then '->' button...

asciilifeform: i saw a surplus box of this type for sale, not so long ago

asciilifeform: rom hand-typewriter, if you will.

asciilifeform: resisted to buy, it's ~typewriter size/mass'd

asciilifeform: typically they kept privkeys on hole-tape

asciilifeform: ( burns well, and costs < roms )

asciilifeform: goes smoother if you giv'em an 'autovon'-style keypad thing, instead of pc kbd

asciilifeform: https://archive.is/Pvt8J << photo, subj.

asciilifeform: ( put a/b/c/d/e/f stickers, and you got it )

asciilifeform: possib

asciilifeform: there are not so many occasions when i hammer in key by hand.

asciilifeform: i suppose if i had a stable of trained seals, might entertain'em/self in this way.

asciilifeform agrees

asciilifeform: btw, ftr, subj : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/romburn_1.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/romburn_2.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/romburn_3.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/romburn_4.jpg , in case anybody cares.

asciilifeform: i would've naively imagined that massive 'contrabass' like this would may as well include the uv lamp. but apparently didn't.

asciilifeform: bvt: i'm not surprised; but these dun affect anyffing i considered to be essential posix knob

asciilifeform: ( i.e. none of these flags appear in my proggies, aside from the open() one )

asciilifeform: O_DIRECTORY might be a bitch in the fyootoor , i suppose

asciilifeform: possibly sumthing like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865559 oughta be considered. ☝︎

asciilifeform: cuz it's either that or 1 v-branch per os/iron .

asciilifeform: ( and from this we get to 'why didja not write the proggy in asm, if it only worx on linux 2.4 on mips ' etc )

asciilifeform: bvt: syscalls were never guaranteed to be same errywhere tho

asciilifeform: they aint a posixism

asciilifeform: the correct end of the funnel to plug, imho , would be a sane flags lib built ~into gnat~, and correct ~per gnat port~

asciilifeform: sorta what the orig authors lamely tried to do ( and mostly failed )

asciilifeform: so any particular proggy can call e.g. open() with correct flaggisms, because it aint as if the gnat on the $box does not already know what os/iron it sits on.

asciilifeform: the funny/sad bit is that this is ALREADY in gnat, for e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch8_randomism#L132 , but ~not exposed~ ! to user

asciilifeform: bvt: they differ for same reason as tit sizes -- nobody ever standardized, so naturally varies

asciilifeform: how else ? it dun know about kernel abi, linux mutations, etc

asciilifeform: of course it hooks into c/posix api.

asciilifeform: sorta why i went ahead and stuck ALL of the os-dependent crud in udp lib into 1 .c

asciilifeform: cuz may as well; if we ever tear off unix , will have to replace those mechanisms anyway

asciilifeform: ( on bare iron, with , say, iron-control variables where e.g. Nic : Unsigned_32 ; for Nic'Address use 16#FF00ABCD#; etc )

asciilifeform: bvt: imho it's wasted work; oughta have just enuff coad to interoperate with the pot of c liquishit while we still must

asciilifeform: rather than baking it into 1000 manyears

asciilifeform: my udp lib is ~600 line, and not 6000, because i went in this direction. ☟︎

asciilifeform: i do not see how it would be improved by being 6000, if i were to try to adaize erry possible idjit unix's struct sockaddr_in .

asciilifeform: bvt: maptron is actually done aside from the strings horror raised last night

asciilifeform: i'ma genesisate it as soon as i figure out a workaround

asciilifeform: imho in long term we really gotta move the compat layers liquishit out of individual projects and into tmsr-gnat

asciilifeform: to keep 9000 mutant copies of these basic things is insanity

asciilifeform: it's why it made sense to fork off gnat to begin with, so that these can be done.

asciilifeform: ( also to stop the gcc5ism gangrene, but this is a close second )

asciilifeform: the obvious alternative to cataloguing the liquishit, is to let it stay in gnat's c frontend where it belongs, a la the udp.c thing.

asciilifeform: and when we get own os, can rip out the c immediately in favour of for CuntLips'Address use 16#FF00ABCD# device interface, etc.

asciilifeform: really the shit to catalog is the actual kernel abi -- what ave1 is doing .

asciilifeform: there's very little point in memorializing the c api liquishit imho

asciilifeform: i'd luvv to see a syscall-tronic version of the udp transceiver thing, for instance.

asciilifeform: ( and yes it is catalogued, in various places, e.g. http://blog.rchapman.org/posts/Linux_System_Call_Table_for_x86_64/ , but to go to implementation takes moar sweat )

asciilifeform: bvt: i do not know for a fact whether it eats same struct as the userland call, or different

asciilifeform: that was my point, this remains to be excavated

asciilifeform: as by asciilifeform -- the pill which weighs the least, is the Right Thing, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866148 , an absolute minimum , line for line, of os-specific liquishit, is the ticket. ☝︎

asciilifeform: and .c is not the only os liquishit, tables of platform constants that one ends up with from avoidance of .c, is also liquishit.

asciilifeform: bvt: suspected as much

asciilifeform: really, the os-platforming crapola belongs inside gnat.

asciilifeform: port it once per iron/os and then fughet it.

asciilifeform: whole point of using a compiled lang is that this garbage dun have to live in yer proggy ! ☟︎

asciilifeform: otherwise why not just write 0xfbadf00d.... etc

asciilifeform: bvt: linux kernel is fundamentally retarded, it expects null-termed rubbish, at times, at other times, char * and length, not to mention a pile of untyped ptrs inside structs, really oughta eat ada structs , ada fixed strings, properly typed arrays, etc instead

asciilifeform: any spackle over the orig unix liquishit, is doomed to be ugly. so imho the smallest possible spackle that does the job, is Right Thing

asciilifeform: right up until we finally ditch unix c kernels.

asciilifeform: for so long as we're stuck on a linux box, i'd rather spackle over the c-ism with 600 ln, than with 6000 .

asciilifeform: it is ~much~ easier to demonstrate the correctness of 600, no matter what else.

asciilifeform: ( and btw the actual amt of c spackle in udp lib , http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_fix_ip_nullchars/tree/udp/libudp/unix_udp.c , is 146 ln. )

asciilifeform: if somebody can show how to do same in 100, or 10, i'ma read and sign the patch and take off my hat.

asciilifeform: but i aint particularly interested in 'improvement' that turns the 146 into 1460.

asciilifeform: ( if you have a 1460 , it had better include whole ip stack and driver for iron nic, lol )

asciilifeform: let's reformulate this way : we want the ~net~ complexity of the orchestra to decrease. if we cannot yet decrease ~net~, the Right Thing is to at least refrain from adding, when possible.

asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs. ☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: at the risk of repeating ancient thread -- 'the best machine is no machine', it weighs nuffin, needs no maintenance. and the best proggy, is no proggy at all, if a problem can be solved without writing proggy, it ought to be. erry line of coad can be rightfully pictured as an act of intellectual littering. y'know, like throwing cig butt or bottle on the ground in the park. ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: it is not possible to live life wholly without exhaust product, errybody exhales, shits, occasionally drops a crumb. but imho good form is to at least recognize that litter is unwanted.

asciilifeform: one thing to shit on an enemy's door step, deliberately, entirely other thing to shit errywhere because not realizing that shit -- stinks

asciilifeform: anyway i'ma leave it at this, will bbl:meat. ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866203 << on a good day, i pump away moar than produce... ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866216 << kuwait, like zimbabwe, or whoever else, can quit running winblowz whenever it pulls its head out of arse ☝︎

asciilifeform: ( not much , i suspect, chance of this sort of pull-out, while it remains usg colony )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866222 << didja ask chix why , if snowden is a zero , e.g. colonel vetrov is 'hero' ? ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866205 << goes great with the 'c glue' thread from earlier ☝︎

asciilifeform: oh hey

asciilifeform will read

asciilifeform: ohai trinque

asciilifeform: trinque: the odd thing is that it's what i used to bake the s.mg cuntoo; worked, then

asciilifeform: and there's afaik nothing substantially different in the current shot

asciilifeform: gotta be sumthing on the remote (fetched from heathens?) end, iirc the old shot still had these

asciilifeform: disk, in so far as i can tell, is alive ( no eggogs in dmesg )

asciilifeform: it was pulled from zoolag the day before ( and not because sad, but to expand the latter to 1tb )

asciilifeform: nao this, i do not know, i have since taken the thing apart again ( was plugged into lappy )

asciilifeform: could rerun later this wk if this point is of interest to trinque

asciilifeform: ( it takes most of a day to get to the barfpoint )

asciilifeform: worx

asciilifeform: i'd much prefer, yes, to have the proper cuntoo, with 0 heathen pulls

asciilifeform: ( and at some point i'd like to set up a tarball mirror myself )

asciilifeform: neat.