asciilifeform: prolly at some point i gotta write a 'NOBUS likbez' re the fundamental motivations ( they are not difficult to discern , but apparently entirely opaque to the herd , even when you exclude the willingly blind )
asciilifeform: it is probably impossible to educate the willingly thick, however, who ~actually~ see a box with NOBUS master keys as 'moar secure than with no keys'. these, will only wake up when they're sitting in kangaroo court , and confessing to 'child porn'
asciilifeform: 'bbbut i left box in hotel just for 10 min, and surely google would never..'
asciilifeform: and prolly they will sit in front of same judge who earlier nodded to 'tor devs would never', etc.
asciilifeform: another interesting tidbit : cr50 vendor fw will conveniently checksum the ec and ap(bootloader) fw. BUT not without goldenkey. wouldn't want terrorists testing for fw modification, see.
asciilifeform: plebe wants to checksum the ec fw ? gotta solder a dozen probes under microscope.
asciilifeform: and this will work until they move the whole fw orchestra into cr50. which is on the planned 'feature' list already for next rev.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in choice redditisms : 'I used to work as a security researcher - if I thought this subject was interesting I'd have to look for another source talking about the same thing because there's no way in hell it'd be acceptable to reference this level of unprofessionalism in a conference or to my superiors.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
asciilifeform: invitation to read the src -- already 'downvoted' into oblivion, unsurprisingly.
esthlos: "This is the technology equivalent of an edgy 14-year-old atheist writing about religion." loller
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1822087 << see also. i'd be surprised if there isn't already a boeck-style 'rebuttal' (perhaps from herr boeck himself) in the works.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-10 18:07 mircea_popescu: and as far as most mouthbreathers are concerned, the world is too much and the little glass bead of "nigger explains what '''events mean to me'''" archsufficient.
asciilifeform: as soon as it gets shat out, the links to the earlier heathenpit threads, will reroute to it -- just like in earlier phuctor case
asciilifeform: google already now returns some dna-related academitardism for 'h1', etc.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1822079 << this is imho the lulziest case yet on record : google is pissing in their mouths, entirely overtly, and the universal response is 'mm, tasty, lemonade'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-10 18:04 Mocky: it's eye opening for me to see how it looks from this side where asciilifeform exposes obvious stench which is met with chorus of 'nah, it smells good'. apparently 'till now I've been the local, ala: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1822065
asciilifeform: ( and betcha when mircea_popescu wakes up, he will add 'just like my gurls' ! )
mircea_popescu just grins
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: while this thread is alive -- there remains the (currently, hypothetical) puzzler of what-do when we find the jailbreak. i expect, buy N boxes, and cure'em ?
asciilifeform: (given as enemy will immediately patch when they get hold of the boojum, as crapple does)
asciilifeform: i suppose we will revisit this when we find the magic overflow etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, without the fritz chips, the situation is 1trn "users" whose router pwd is admin, and then m00t's horde owning time magazine's "man of the year" competition.
mircea_popescu: this is the fucking problem they're trying to resolve, that without restraints, the horde re-organizes into unflat.
asciilifeform: it's still 'admin', lol, just more along the vein of 'adminMAGICNSANOBUSSTRING'
mircea_popescu: yup.
asciilifeform: so it is only 'solution' in the sense of satisfying the 'childporn judge'.
mircea_popescu: this is what they do.
mircea_popescu: the empire of exam taking.
asciilifeform: just like the credit card 'security' exists so banks can drop the bill for fraudulent mercedes onto the hapless card luser.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-10-17#1301302 << see also thread.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-10-17 17:42 asciilifeform: the point i was trying to make then, as now, is that mri - like fingerprints - is a confession-inducer and evidence-planter apparatus, let's say 'guiltwashing', rather than necessarily a fact-finder.
asciilifeform: ( orig thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-19#883658 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-10-19 18:31 asciilifeform: chetty: the whole purpose of 'biometric' crap is to administratively fix the designated chump as the permanently-designated chump.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822183 << hooker/maid that usg criminal org specifically paid to lie in court would never lie in court, best arrest foreign diplomat!!!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 00:04 asciilifeform: and prolly they will sit in front of same judge who earlier nodded to 'tor devs would never', etc.
mircea_popescu: the list is indeed long.
asciilifeform: the pretense with arrested diplomat et al stretches thin even to idjit public; thus they'll take all of the techno-help they can get, is the idea.
asciilifeform: 'the confession was on his chromebook, and no one (But US, but US Would Never!11) but his own hand, could have written' etc
mircea_popescu: i don't think it stretches anything. "my superiors". reich is reich is reich, it really has no need or use for thought.
asciilifeform: they've created this apparatus of 'pencildicks', and it will further the oddball rituals, or how else to justify existing.
asciilifeform: 'digital evidence'!
mircea_popescu: honestly, i'm happy with the outcomes. swathes of 20something yo slavegirls as far as the eye can see, to take pick from.
mircea_popescu: they're all someone;s daughter.
mircea_popescu: !!key nikki_ff
deedbot: Not registered.
asciilifeform: picking from decerebrated muppets, satisfying ?
mircea_popescu: hey, it's a crapshoot. if you have 1bn decerebrated muppets reproducing, you get some simona haleps. if you have 1k, you don't.
asciilifeform: i suppose.
mircea_popescu: numbers game of the meat best run by the numbers.
asciilifeform: observe, the ~saner~ end of the heathenpit comments are along the lines of 'yes there's no escape, i sit and drink'
mircea_popescu: but anyway, to put the matter of piss and gurls to (temporary) rest : Jun 09 01:57:42 <nikki_ff> yes sir i am drunk <mircea_popescu> how do you like your piss ? <nikki_ff> best its ever tasted.
asciilifeform: ( speaking of which, hey Framedragger_ , how's it treating ya ? )
asciilifeform: theeere we go.
mircea_popescu: henceforth a new "piss on the bitch" cocktail is defined, for public consumption, as piss, vodka and a splash of fruit juice.
mircea_popescu: apparently it's pretty good.
asciilifeform: !#s morarji cola
a111: 4 results for "morarji cola", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=morarji%20cola
mircea_popescu: lol it's all you googling it and google failing
asciilifeform: orig unclealism
mircea_popescu: "We disdain otter piss alcoholic Coors or Budweiser swills wrested from sprouted rice" << utter!
mircea_popescu: i found an almisspeal!
asciilifeform: morarji, 4th primeminister of india, famously drank glass of (supposedly, own, but whoknows) piss erry day
mircea_popescu: hey, nothing beats a self-administered pregnancy test.
asciilifeform: https://archive.li/x3A3f << subj: >> '...his practice of drinking a glass of his own urine every day, and as veteran journalist M.V.Kamath, reporting for ToI, noted rather despairingly, the problem wasn’t just that Desai did this, but he was very eager to talk at length about it: “in a 15-minute appearance on a very popular Sunday TV show called ’60 Minutes’, Mr.Desai was seen taking practically half the time to commend urine
asciilifeform: therapy.”'
mircea_popescu: wait, it's a ~therapy~ ?!
asciilifeform: aaaha
asciilifeform: india.
mircea_popescu: i thought it wass jusst perverssity
hanbot: apropos of exactly nothing, where do skunks go to pray?
mircea_popescu: hanbot, where ?
asciilifeform: y'know, the place where they have the magical shit river you drink 'to health' from.
hanbot: mircea_popescu: to the pew!
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
mircea_popescu: you mean the phew ?
asciilifeform: 'the secret, strange hole in his dubious pew!'(tm)(r)(trilema) !
mircea_popescu: like phtephen ?
hanbot: lol
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in moar recent preet india, https://archive.li/A1kOB
asciilifeform: they're getting less and less pronouncable. tejpal s. chawla -- srsly.
asciilifeform: i can only guess, that the pronounceable, brahmin folk, have run out
asciilifeform: time now for the ex-latrinecleaners
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, afaik that ali watkins chick is a libertard stalwart. the whole thing is "how dares state challenge the politruks"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah i thought this was still about the reality winner lulz
asciilifeform: same flavour, neh.
mircea_popescu: it's about something or other, but broadly about the fact that the pantsuit party is very angry any sort of pushback against mother china WHATSOEVER still goes on.
asciilifeform: 'red'.usg demonstratively pillorying 'blue'.usg 'activists' etc.
asciilifeform: afaik chinese sit and 'wait for the corpse to float by' just like 1000yrs ago.
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine the chinese actually give a shit about the withc hunts in that obscure european colony.
asciilifeform: virtue of patience, corpse reliably floats by.
mircea_popescu: not anymore than anyone over at alphabet gives a shit about the misadventures of amstan ; or anyone at redhat about the new hole in boeck's ass, or etc.
mircea_popescu: well... in the patient's defense, the anglotards are really not all that interesting.
asciilifeform: about same amt of shit as mircea_popescu gives about the fate of newly-ejected condom, aha
mircea_popescu: and this, from a race that is enthralled by fruit machines.
asciilifeform: wat's a fruit machine
mircea_popescu: you know, those things old ladies put coins intoi
asciilifeform: aa 1armedbandit
mircea_popescu: right
asciilifeform: i thought this was in jp
asciilifeform: where folx obsess , play'em
asciilifeform: or was that some local variant.
asciilifeform: (phunphakt -- 'sega' was originally usa/occupation-era co. that made 1armedbandits )
asciilifeform: 'nintendo'--meiji-era titan of playingcard manufacture.
mircea_popescu: afaik it's all small yellow folk.
asciilifeform: poor folx luuuuvvvv to pennyante gamble.
asciilifeform: i don't precisely know why.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, colorful ?
mircea_popescu: but the point of concern for mcguffin-book writers / social media personalities / journalists / whatever else the pantsuit keep telling themselves they do, would be that the chinese can't seem to be bothered to give the slightest fuck. these are some people who find even one arm bandits fascinating.
mircea_popescu: i confess it'd worry me, in their place.
asciilifeform: it is not given to fish, to wonder or worry about the life of the fisherman.
asciilifeform: focus of fish, is the worm.
asciilifeform: delish and entirely 'phreee'
mircea_popescu: you know i just re-read your article, because i was curious. wtf was "unprofessional" about it ?! i mean, yes, there's deliberately constructed anti-"professional" items, like say recently the http://trilema.com/2018/and-in-things-that-didnt-happen-today-heres-192-cracked-github-keys-some-hotties-in-tech-included-yes/ phuctor discussion.
asciilifeform: i think 'professional' is tardcode for 'responsible disclosure' and general usg-fellatio
mircea_popescu: but your piece don't even remotely resemble.
mircea_popescu: oh, like, you weren't "modest" enough ?
asciilifeform: somethinglikethat
mircea_popescu: so basically he can't show "his superiors" that he reads doubleplusungood folk who don't insert a "traiasca tovarasul" sentence twice per paragraph, is the idea ?
mircea_popescu: maybe he gets fired if they think he doesn't like them anymore or something ?
asciilifeform: also witness the redditards, 'harping on tpm, that's SOOO rms from 1997' etc
asciilifeform: i'm surprised that nobody brought up the eating of toe fungus
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, so if there's been a famine going for 20 years meatballs are "soo 1997" ?
asciilifeform: more or less.
mircea_popescu: !!key nikki_ff
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/5D2D2AB4789EC28501080C2F790E3C0093EF2474.asc
mircea_popescu: holy shit, the dumbass managed.
mircea_popescu: !!rate nikki_ff 1 aspiring slavegirl ; also famous for the "piss on the bitch" cocktail.
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Yl92O/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: !!v 8DE2EDFE706112BD08BC21F05A0FFA66614A66F04E25101DD36F84384CCABA00
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated nikki_ff 1 << aspiring slavegirl ; also famous for the "piss on the bitch" cocktail.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: revisiting upstack -- i suspect that the decerebrated folx, are not aware of any such famine. google made the perfect fuffle for'em, the dildonic 'open comp' that offers 'fetish of power', go ahead and install linux etc.
asciilifeform: sleeker, moar satisfying anal filler than ye olde wintel's hamfisted offering
asciilifeform: 'it's open, have you looked at coreboot' -- commenter
mircea_popescu: steady diet of lulzsammich, this web.
asciilifeform: for the moar advanced fetishists, even lets you solder contacts and rewrite boot rom etc., 'Чем бы дитя не тешилось, лишь бы не вешалось'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: 'it's just a tpm, what's yer problem'.
asciilifeform: re 'professionals', i can also picture 'you wrote it like a vuln reveal, but this is not a vuln, this is our masters getting jus primae noctis with our raw starfishes like god intended' irritation
asciilifeform: 'how dare you describe god's chosen as vulgar syphilitic rapists'.
asciilifeform: this is the leitmotif audible to asciilifeform , at any rate.
mircea_popescu: but you don't... do that.
asciilifeform: i've met these folx in the flesh, show'em e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/pub/nobus.jpg and response is lordosis
mircea_popescu: anyway. in the end, i suppose it's pretty amusing to notice that a) indifferent of form b) the reaction will be to substance c) and negative because the substance's not usg-friendly but nevertheless d) claim to be a reaction to form.
asciilifeform: possibly because there is no possible counter-argument to the substance.
mircea_popescu: "usg sucks" "i don't like how you used the word suck" | "usg is dumb" "i don't approve of the usage of verbs" | "the goat is dead" "i don't like the syllable count and this has nothing to do with my suspicion the goat may be a veiled reference to usg".
mircea_popescu: what, and nobody's supposed to notice ?
asciilifeform: starfish is getting broad daylight waltzing, no way to boeck around the fact.
asciilifeform: https://archive.li/A4vO1 << various lulz in re that famous octopus.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell trinque might be worth testing whether koch's latest lul affects deedbot's gpg hose
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: deedbot signs ?
asciilifeform: verify
asciilifeform: ( see top qntra )
mircea_popescu: i thought it was specifically signing.
mircea_popescu looks
asciilifeform: let's put in the l0gz :
asciilifeform: 'The OpenPGP protocol allows to include the file name of the original input file into a signed or encrypted message. During decryption and verification the GPG tool can display a notice with that file name. The displayed file name is not sanitized and as such may include line feeds or other control characters. This can be used inject terminal control sequences into the out and, worse, to fake the so-called status messages. These
asciilifeform: status messages are parsed by programs to get information from gpg about the validity of a signature and an other parameters. Status messages are created with the option "--status-fd N" where N is a file descriptor. Now if N is 2 the status messages and the regular diagnostic messages share the stderr output channel. By using a made up file name in the message it is possible to fake status messages.'
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, it's supposed to matter when you run it from command prompt neh ?
asciilifeform: ( from the horse's mouth )
asciilifeform: loox like you can stuff arbitrary crapola into the filename field, and it gets term-interpreted to stderr ( where result is shat )
mircea_popescu: ah so the idea is that if shell callout, you might end up with wrong response ?
mircea_popescu: i thought he used his own impl.
asciilifeform: correct
asciilifeform: iirc errybody's gpg-using items, callout.
asciilifeform: e.g. vtrons.
mircea_popescu: tho in retrospect i'm not entirely sure why i thought that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, well no, eucrypt crypts.
asciilifeform: right but eucrypt is not a gpg-riding proggy.
asciilifeform: ( $nooseitem is not a gcrypt 0day, but gpg particular )
lobbes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-6-10#373478 << lol, I believe it. On the bright side, at least it didn't contain any brain-eating amoebas >> http://archive.is/SJSUG
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-06-10 16:16 Mocky: !Q later tell lobbes I just got back from uwharrie national forest, ~50km east of Charlotte. ftr, 'deep river' is misnomer, more like 'shallow creek'
deedbot: http://thewhet.net/2018/06/mp-wp-genesis-regrind/ << The Whet - MP-WP: Genesis Regrind
hanbot: ^ phf please to update, apologies for the hassle.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, you selling wm ? any q really.
mircea_popescu: oops.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/the-lordship-list-fourth-year/#comment-121713 << ahahah trinque has like the CUTEST avatar!
ben_vulpes: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/arts/ren-stimpy-creator-misconduct.html << relatit
mircea_popescu: three ?!
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the entomological pit : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AFritz-chip >> 'I've deleted most of the article. The information here is already presented in a more up-to-date fashion at Trusted Computing, which is the correct title for the technology. "Fritz-chip" was never more than a moniker used by critics of the technology put forth by Sen. Hollings. The article now represents this fact. Warrens 23:24, 29 April 2006 (
asciilifeform: UTC)'
asciilifeform: see why not to link to pedowikia, esthlos ?
asciilifeform: meanwhile, reddit verdict : 'Are there any less tinfoiley sites that discuss this? All of the references circle back to him.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
mod6: lol
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: heya mod6
mod6: typical repsonse from reich. megaunsurprise.
trinque: https://archive.is/kun1Z/2905364d6ab37678fbb6e32c2b116435a76d878f.png << shock and outrage that this artist has a thing for teenaged girls!
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 13 hours and 6 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> might be worth testing whether koch's latest lul affects deedbot's gpg hose
trinque: the thick irony being that for most nickelodeon staff, 16 is way too old.
trinque: asciilifeform: https://archive.li/sVoej << I get zero output from the test provided at the bottom using deedbot's gpg
BingoBoingo: And in the Latest Brasilero quirks, Apparently 28C/82F is the appropriate night time temperature for the heatpump. Because of course during the winter everyone should be adapted to sleep at a summer daytime temperature.
mircea_popescu: !!up IdleGandalf
deedbot: IdleGandalf voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck are you and what's with that idiotic nick.
mircea_popescu: the whole fucking species has a thing for teenage girls ; that's the prime directive of sexuate reproduction : defloration.
mircea_popescu: also, wouldn't you tihnk a girl kinda retarded, if it came out she lost it at 16 ?!
mircea_popescu: it's only natural to get rid of the skin the same year the dumb shit starts bleeding ; and by and large the rule. in any case the ~normal~.
asciilifeform: trinque: neato
asciilifeform: hey BingoBoingo : does your dental school chix have access to xray ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform needs a bit of xrayin'
asciilifeform: ( well, not asciilifeform in person, but a 10 x 5 in. pcb )
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: "Step right in here, mr alf"
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: john k's crime here is bending over to the state after making a career upon ramming lulz through the censors. "3 decades struggle with mental illness" such as being heterosexual.
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: the atmosphere in the great stalin-less stalinism has changed lots. nowadays people actually say dumb shit like "what the government wants it called is the proper name for it" and other inanity like that. with a straight fucking face.
mircea_popescu: something their parents would have never even considered.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/h1.jpg << observe, cr50 has buncha test pads. i bet half a dozen of these, are used for factory fillup.
mircea_popescu: doh.
mircea_popescu: they're nothing if not cheap.
asciilifeform: for completeness, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_top.jpg + http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_btm.jpg ( apologies for the sad photos, they came out of a flatbed, evidently not ideal tool for this job )
mircea_popescu: looks like you shook it.
asciilifeform: does, dunnit. cuz its a flatbed. gets the chip markings, mostly, but the pcb itself is out of focus by mm or 2.
mircea_popescu: anyway, if you can get factory probes on them pads, i would not even be surprised if you can just flash it without further ado.
asciilifeform: doubt that it's quite so trivial, typically you gotta find how to hold it in reset so it doesn't boot up to its current fritz contents
mircea_popescu: right, there's that.
asciilifeform: one interesting observation, is that the update mechanism lets you flash in arbitrary crapola into 'rw' section ( it simply won't jump to it if it doesn't pass rsa(sha256(payload)) ) . so theoretically could put a nop sled there, ending with jump into the magic half of unlock routine. and then expose the thing to beta/gamma, and perhaps in a few months it will Do The Right Thing
mircea_popescu: "gandalf". fucking morons.
asciilifeform: but would prefer to find a purely softwaric pill (e.g. buffer overrun, or whatever means to get code exec)
mircea_popescu: this may take a lot of doing.
asciilifeform: idea being, it would be a substantial help to have even one unlocked box to experiment with.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: these fucktards! they wanna go about derping about "tin foil" and whatnot "unprofessional", then queue up to read all about "gandalf".
mircea_popescu: "oh but mp, it's different species of slime". no, it fucking isn't. all slime is the exact same identical species : itself.
asciilifeform: not merely 'gandalf', but 'idle gandalf'!11
asciilifeform: the sheer cheek.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a break of the rng would also do the job. ( admittedly , tall order , but listed for completeness. )
asciilifeform: ( the 'rma unlock' 32byte turd, is simply rng output )
mircea_popescu: accomodating fucking parents.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, how's the rng work ? maybe a bit of electric field can set out 1s ?
asciilifeform: prolly it's the typical on-chip ring oscillator, plus bit of whitener.
asciilifeform: the fact that h1 started life as fpga, suggests this.
mircea_popescu: you got a field generator ?
asciilifeform: i got various things. problem is that i do not currently have a popped unit where i can see the effect of $manipulation on rng (or any other part, aside from general 'it crashed')
asciilifeform: the lulzy bit is that likely, a thousand or more unlocked units exist, in the hands of various derps
asciilifeform: an ounce of intel work would prolly beat ten pounds of lab wizardry in this case.
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: ( recall kgb maslennikov ? 'we dun break keys, we buy'em' )
mircea_popescu: problem is, they tend to be asexuate derps.
mircea_popescu: but, i can see the angle.
asciilifeform: and holy fuq the sheer militant uselessness of each new crop of i_came_via_reddit weevils.
asciilifeform: seems as if each set breaks new record.
mircea_popescu: and in other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1822012 lulz : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822363 is somehow an argument, but "all references circle back to usg" http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764431 bothers none of the pondscum. "that is normal". of fucking course it is, of the SOVEREIGN. which happens to be tmsr, not some rando criminal org.☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-10 15:18 mircea_popescu: if he hadn't heard of the third reich instrument of surrender he'd be going around his village singing "tomorrow belongs to me". as it is, he derps on the periphery of google. if he realised tmsr owns the world he'd be "community organizing" for you. and so on.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 14:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile, reddit verdict : 'Are there any less tinfoiley sites that discuss this? All of the references circle back to him.'
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:13 Matthew: you guys wrote this yourself right
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, my sluts don't score so much better.
mircea_popescu: you have no fucking idea what sorts of punishments it takes to de-ingrain the "now irc link turns off" processes they have.
mircea_popescu: it'd be easier to turn them out. ~literally~, this isn't some sort of rhetorical device. it would be easier to turn them into streetwalking whores than to turn them into sane people whose online presence has continuity.
mircea_popescu: the amount of washing it takes to recycle imperial-farmed cunt into useful slavery is mindnumbing.
asciilifeform: 'he will be a very well trained bear but never a world-class dancer' or how did it go.
mircea_popescu: has nothing to do with it even.
mircea_popescu: the better comparison is, 19yo who's been well trained to pick at her scabs.
mircea_popescu: "bitch, stop fucking picking at it" "oh sorry master."
mircea_popescu: 2 minutes later.... "MOTHERFUCKER!!!"
mircea_popescu: but it's this unholy alliance of "it itches" vegetative signal and "pick at your scabs" low level motherly acculturation.
mircea_popescu: (this, by the way, is why you shouldn't permit women to run the house. it's way too fucking easy for them to fritz-chip the jtags.)
mircea_popescu: and the results are never good.
mircea_popescu: (and for the gandalfs in the peanut gallery : streetwalking is ~hard~. short of infantryman during war, streetwalker has the hardest, most biodemanding job there is. which is why i respect them a lot more than i respect githikipedia contributors)
asciilifeform: here's a historical lul that mircea_popescu might find stimulating. asciilifeform ( and his brother, and a whole generation of folx ) grew up with a certain orc '100 bytes of ram, but hey it's fucking programmable' little box, http://www.alfredklomp.com/technology/mk-61 . and the Official b00k for it ( http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/G/GAYSHTUT_Aleksandr_Grigor'evich/_Gayshtut_A.G..html ) had various games (typically you had to draw on g
asciilifeform: rid paper, to work the labyrinths, tank battles, etc ) ;
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: but as the '90s marched on, the thing did not, apparently, immediately fade away and die ( troo comps remained expensive, rare, until '93-'94ish ); so folx continued to write and circulate samizdat gamez : http://lordbss.pp.ru/pmk.html
mircea_popescu: ha.
asciilifeform: one of these was 'reactor control' , with realistic constants, you had to ramp up reactor, control the rods and the sodium pump etc, object was to get max power but avoid meltdown
mircea_popescu: this is like saying, "Here's our companion games to a pair of dice".
mircea_popescu: o hey.
asciilifeform: so the hilarious bit, is that folx wrote variations on the theme, 'sim whore', 'bordello'
asciilifeform: that were in effect EXACTLY 'reactor control', but instead of sodium pump litres/sec, probability of runaway, etc. it was 'fucks per day', 'probability of VD', 'prob. of arrest', etc.
mircea_popescu: haha
asciilifeform: ( and there were astonishing oddities of other kinds, for this humble machine, e.g. a 'tetris' where, lacking a graphical display, you had to instead pick a numeric column where the piece drops, and give another number representing rotation, and keep whole thing in yer head... )
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is the true problem with nuclear reactors : exactly like the coffee grinder (see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1735165 ), the probability of runaway is almost never 0.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-09 16:38 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu earlier suggested , 'boltzmann distrib' of coffee speck velocities, almost certainly has high end that grinds pieces of your vessel into the output
asciilifeform: orlol had a hilarious essay on subj
mircea_popescu: somehow all the "opponents" never managed to FUCKING SAY THIS, the only actual, valid argument.
asciilifeform: where he 'picture trying to hire world-class pianists, if occasionally grand piano exploded and took entire county with it'
mircea_popescu: said everything else. then they want to talk about tin foils.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, makes power, rather than beauty.
mircea_popescu: truth of the marketplace is that a cent of power was always worth millions of beauty.
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
asciilifeform: it is sorta hilarious how a good 50-60% of the popular (they were hand-copied, and machine had no nonvolatile memory, you had to throw in the proggy each time you flipped the power on ) gamez, were based on the very soviet-flavoured diff. eqn. models the factory manual suggested
asciilifeform: 'land the capsule'
asciilifeform: ( legendarily, soyuz actually carried mk-52, reportedly, on board, a sort of mk-61 with i/o connector, as backup to main comp )
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental difference -- in the original soviet, the little soviets were expected to plug selves into machine. which, while in a deeply feminine sort of way, is nevertheless somehow satisfying.
asciilifeform: compared to life with this orc box, mircea_popescu was tsar and god with his z80 . but , behold, even in 100bytes you can do things.
mircea_popescu: the new soviets, however, are expected to hold it in hand -- the machine's all chinesium.
asciilifeform: all these calculators came with full schems btw
asciilifeform: 'centerfold' in manual
asciilifeform: complete with reference oscillograms. if yours dies (and not infrequently, it would) you were expected to repair.
mircea_popescu: whole consumerist thing only really started in earnest after the soviets went away.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in oldies, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wA_0lSxkG8
asciilifeform: the calculators, bk0010 ( tiny little pdp clone ! ), etc. is a sunken atlantis. it was all forgotten almost immediately when imported pc was carted in in qty
asciilifeform: http://lordbss.pp.ru/pmk162.html << 'thief simulator'
mircea_popescu: much like the killer micro was forgotten almost immediately once the handheld tivos were carted in qty.
asciilifeform: 'killer micro' was colonized by microshit, and almost immediately began the march towards death, 'how do we keep plebes from copying gamez', culminating in today's boxen.
mircea_popescu: none of the girls own a desktop, you realize this ?
mircea_popescu: "oh, i got my phone".
mircea_popescu: bitch... a phone is a computer in the sense your slit's a cock.
asciilifeform: ye olde mk61 is moar of computer. even tho poor orcistan never even invented soldermask, pcb was bare, like if i made it here in my kitchen.
asciilifeform: cuz you could actually program! it.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'm starting to think i'll simply add a "owns desktop" disqualifier to the list.
asciilifeform: disqualifier?
mircea_popescu: it's how it worked in the 90s, right, you went to a new kid's house, had no computer could not be friends, evidently underclass only good to shine your shoes.
asciilifeform: oh aa
asciilifeform: qualifier, then?
mircea_popescu: why should this have ever changed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, well, "no computer, you can't play" is a disqualifier. "obedient, you've made it" is a qualifier.
asciilifeform: aa then makes sense
asciilifeform realizes that he doesn't actually know anybody in meatspace, even elderly relatives, who does not own a desktop of ~some~ form
mircea_popescu: you know it's like >pi per capita here ? i recently counted, it's a scandal.
mircea_popescu: PLUS a pile of various laptops.
asciilifeform: of course orc owns pile of laptops. orc will never throw anything away.
mircea_popescu: no, they all work.
asciilifeform: sure
asciilifeform: why shouldn't they work.
mircea_popescu: lmao. most common orc sentence re laptop includes "dun work"
asciilifeform: ( often there'll be half a kg of dirt in the ductwork, but thing will still work, after a fashion )
mircea_popescu: but eg why should i throw out http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-31#1778739 ? even if it's used once in a month, you fixed it for me, it's going in the tmsr museum☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 13:56 mp_en_viaje: in other "thanks goodness computer means programmable machine", i have here this hp elitebook. it has the backlight permanently welded to "retina cancer". the "function" key bs works for everything else EXCEPT setting the brightness, fn-f9 does 0.
asciilifeform: ( btw another reason c101pa would be a spiffy orc lappy -- it's got no fans/ducts )
mircea_popescu: no, i know.
asciilifeform: lol i recall that thing, it was, what, 3kg ?
mircea_popescu: car's got what 3 ? 400 HP under the hood ? let it work.
asciilifeform: i recall when it was fashionable to make 'car comp'
mircea_popescu: in the immortal words of barry fitzgerald, "let a good piece of machinery earn its fuel"
asciilifeform: thing went in the boot , display on long cable , hanging somewhere near gearshift
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i recall it too. i was fucking there! the motorola "cell phones" you could maim someone with, and the inductor computers, and so on.
asciilifeform: aha! them
mircea_popescu: before ac units, even.
asciilifeform: not whole globe needs ac, tho
asciilifeform: ( ac was ~unknown on asciilifeform's homeworld )
mircea_popescu: not where i lived, either. but in the shitplain of southern romania ? very fucking needed.
asciilifeform: http://lordbss.pp.ru/pmk149.html << 'escape from gulag'
mircea_popescu: haha. bullocks included ?
asciilifeform: nah , moar of a 'wumpus'
asciilifeform: prolly there was a spicier ver. with bullocks, whole orchestra.
asciilifeform: interestingly, a major puzzler was 'how to rng'. most folx used some trigonometric crapola; it ~worked..
mircea_popescu off to the dungeosn. bbl!
asciilifeform: laters.
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: loper_os_cr50: hello ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I can ask. Is the PCB already in Uruguay?
asciilifeform: nope
asciilifeform: not unless BingoBoingo can find a c101pa in uy
asciilifeform: ( if he does, i'ma pay for it )
asciilifeform: !!up apt-get
deedbot: apt-get voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: apt-get: hello ?
apt-get: hi
apt-get: I just got d/c'd
asciilifeform: what brings you to #trilema , apt-get ?
apt-get: just here to lurk in general
asciilifeform: apt-get: i recommend to read the logs
asciilifeform: beats the shit out of plain lurking
apt-get: I've been doing that a bit yesterday
asciilifeform: apt-get: http://btcbase.org/log/
asciilifeform: apt-get: use the search box to find subjects that interest you
asciilifeform: and then get yerself a proper nick, and register gpg key with deedbot , and become a person
apt-get: >get yerself a proper nick
apt-get: rude tbh, I've been using this one online for quite some time
asciilifeform: well if you ~want~ to be known as apt-get...
asciilifeform: apt-get: do you speak ru ?
apt-get: asciilifeform, nope
asciilifeform: damn
apt-get: I've been interested in learning it for quite some time though
asciilifeform: in re 'rude', the starting point is http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-07#1536618☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-07 23:49 asciilifeform: alice_: do you know expression 'в чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят' ?
apt-get: I see
apt-get: the reason I keep using this nick is because it's quite handy to have personal info drowned out in a sea of noise when someone tries to look it up
apt-get: I'm more interested in that kind of persona rather than adopting an identity meant to be recognized
trinque: how can you expect someone to care about "rude tbh" if you pride yourself on being unrecognizable
trinque: this assuming for the moment that such things aren't immediate and reliable signs the speaker's an idiot
apt-get: I wasn't actually offended or anything, it's just banter
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aapt-get << sea of noise, parted
asciilifeform: !!up |\n
deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: |\n: hello ?
|\n: o/
|\n: what is the normal channel "flow", meaning how would i even ask a question if i got one
|\n: just to know if it is even possible
asciilifeform: |\n: ideally, you go and register gpg key with deedbot. then , let's say i rate you, and then you can speak whenever you have something to say.
|\n: aha, cool! thanks asciilifeform
asciilifeform: alternatively , somebody might give you voice, such as now , and you can speak for 30min.
asciilifeform: |\n: recommend to read the logs, and make use of the search
trinque: one might, say, introduce himself, like even my cat does when he walks into the room
|\n: well it was fast i admit, now i'd better shut up because it brings too much crap to logs, got my answers, thanks
trinque: |\n: nah you don't get off that easy. you're from .ru ?
asciilifeform: |\n: as trinque points out -- you will get much more enthusiastic audience if you introduce yourself, and register a key, establish as person
|\n: trinque, i'm just a dude that sometimes hears of phuctor and things that include links to the blog, i like what i see, cool pals discuss it, i'd like to track more of it, whatever it is
|\n: i am, russia
trinque: cool, there are several russian speakers present
trinque: what do you do |\n ?
|\n: apart from things unspeakable on freenode i love to bring up tor relays and i got a job as an admin of shitty place
|\n: so i doubt theres anything remarkable i could tell about myself heh
asciilifeform: |\n: i noticed today that there is 0 discussion of cr50/h1 in ru net
asciilifeform: |\n: how about you go and fix this
asciilifeform: the english people are clinically retarded. let's try the civilized world, how about.
|\n: good shout, sure i got my miserable excuses, since i'm not media person, i constantly attempt to tell about such things to people who show interest, but the scales are as miserable as my excuses hah
asciilifeform: |\n: use what you have.
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: hello ?
swiftgeek: doing simple fact checking, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 doesn't mark clearly fritz chip
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: slightly better photo from today, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822393☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:35 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/h1.jpg << observe, cr50 has buncha test pads. i bet half a dozen of these, are used for factory fillup.
swiftgeek: oh now i see that violeet thing
swiftgeek: sneaky
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you want to talk to the cr50 in your unit, all you need is the simple cable in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2415 article
asciilifeform: cr50 will appear on /dev/ttyUSB0
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: nope i'm here for fact checking, from #libreboot
asciilifeform: you will get a (very limited, pretty much all you can do is to read version strings and gpio voltages) command prompt
swiftgeek: also if you somehow damage C201PA irrecoverably please don't trash them
swiftgeek: that board itself needs to be reversed (PCB)
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i do not currently have a 201
asciilifeform: i am however accumulating a pile of c101pa boards
asciilifeform: and definitely interested in getting one xrayed. you got an xray machine, swiftgeek ?
|\n: even if something is not clear - hardware is full of shit, supplying any trust towards vendors is as stupid as saying that someone might now have some private keys from whatever, being it an IT or automotive industry (pick any), i believe that is why some papers on standards that might shed light on ways of how proprietary things (that belong to owners) work
swiftgeek: nope and won't help
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: what we need is to tear down board layer by layer
|\n: are pricey
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sciphone_Dream_G2#PCB_layers
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: even simple xray would give you basic info, such as the number of balls in the bga, and possibly the routes of the test pads (it ain't a very crowded pcb)
swiftgeek: if starts align properly i will be doing something similar for kgpe-d16
asciilifeform: but ideally yes, would strip it properly
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: also decap the damn chip
asciilifeform: yes
swiftgeek: and sent it to zeptobars or what they were called
swiftgeek: yep them https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Espressif-ESP8266-wifi-serial-rs232-ESP8089-IoT
swiftgeek: it's definitely in interesting category
asciilifeform: all i've been able to find is that 1) it is an arm cortex-m , prolly licensed 2) started life as fpga ( see google's src, comments repeatedly refer to earlier vers as 'fpga' , then , later, 'g-chip' )
asciilifeform: it also has onboard flash
asciilifeform: ( the cr50 rom is ~not~ kept in the winbond spi rom where the boot loader ( google's crippled coreboot ) lives )
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well in thinkpads we have fun gate array
swiftgeek: that we are reversing
swiftgeek: (PMH-* )
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: in re cr50, i am specifically interested in whatever factory test pads exist , with which the thing may be filled up with initial fw on manufacture
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well you should be only concerned first about black boxing it
asciilifeform: if these are found, and found to work, it is likely to be the shortest path to proper jailbreak
asciilifeform: black boxing ?
swiftgeek: ie. it doesn't look like a necessary component to me
asciilifeform: unfortunately it is
swiftgeek: so making something equivalent first would be beneficial
asciilifeform: they moved power supply init into it
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: that's what i mean by that :D
swiftgeek: it sounds like you can replace it easily by some dumb components
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: see https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/board/cr50/gpio.inc ( what is known of the pin functions )
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: so it's necessary and it's like PMH but with mcu?
asciilifeform: so far we know that it handles the power button signal; the reset magic combo on the kbd; and the 3.3v rail bringup. it also handles the usb debug functionality that you get with the cable linked earlier
swiftgeek: what i mean is
swiftgeek: is host communicating with it to do something important to keep machine alive?
asciilifeform: but conceivably you could , at some expense, come up with a pad-for-pad substitute, and lift the thing, then solder to the balls
swiftgeek: or is it just some stupid bloat
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: the way it is connected now, the box won't actually power up without it
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well you only need to do it once
asciilifeform: not once, but for each unit
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: after that once you have confirmed model of black box and from then you can figure out something way more efficient
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: asciilifeform's orig plan was to sell cleansed c101pa machines. if this said cleansing requires lifting a bga, and attaching a manufactured replacement , we will be talking about considerably different cost than if the machines can be cleansed in 10min via software, via debug snake.
asciilifeform: makes sense ?
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i'm only speaking about doing it once in history xD
swiftgeek: one unit no more
asciilifeform: sure, but i want 1000+ units, rather than 1 elaborately handcrafted.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: the point is to take some lessons from that 1 unit
swiftgeek: it will be silly if end result is just few modwires :>
asciilifeform: google's src already contains everything you need, in theory, to make a hypothetical benign replacement for cr50
asciilifeform: that ~only~ brings up 3v, etc
asciilifeform: however this approach is expensive, in manual labour, and its cost borders on that of simply making new machines from 0
asciilifeform: which makes it of secondary interest to us
swiftgeek: eh
asciilifeform: and as soon as we start doing it, they'll start pouring epoxy, and then cost goes up yet again
swiftgeek: i'm telling you that it will be simpler to do it once and this way confirm every part of it
swiftgeek: looking at some code you found there isn't the same as poking the actual thing
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you'd like to take a c101pa and deball the bga and try this, and post article, i promise to read
asciilifeform: sadly i am not currently equipped for such an experiment
swiftgeek: WEP852D+
swiftgeek: they are cheap
asciilifeform: i have a very similar machine
swiftgeek: ok skip WEP, it's a whitelabel thing
asciilifeform: that's not the sticking point
swiftgeek: it's a tiny bga chip that you can remove yourself easily
asciilifeform: sticking point is to solder to the balls
swiftgeek: hmm
asciilifeform: yes anybody can lift bga ( tricky to do without cracking the board, but doable if you are patient )
swiftgeek: not tricky xD
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: x200t already requires a bit of rework
asciilifeform: soldering however many balls are under it, to bodge wires, and attaching logic analyzer etc, is the headache
|\n: in terms of labour there are many people who would lift it and reflow for 5-10 usd per operation, even here in russia, but epoxy will ruin such perfect model =)
asciilifeform: what you'd want, is to solder an interposer b/w the cr50 and the pcb
asciilifeform: and get a trace of all of the signals
asciilifeform: ( if you simply lift it, there'll be no signals, board doesn't come up )
swiftgeek: |\n: it's not that big chip xD
swiftgeek: for something that silly cleaning it up will take order of magnitude more than rework xD
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: out of curiosity, what's your interest in this particular box ?
asciilifeform: coreboot dev ?
swiftgeek: nothing , it went up on reddit
asciilifeform: aah
asciilifeform: !!up |\n
deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: if somebody will end up with dead c201pa in eu then hopefully i will get it for teardown if they remember
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you register a gpg key with deedbot, you will be able to voice yourself
asciilifeform: !!help
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html
asciilifeform: ^ instructions
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/06/israeli-knesset-quietly-disqualifies-equality-bill-maintain-the-jewish-majority-even-if-it-violates-rights/ << Qntra - Israeli Knesset Quietly Disqualifies Equality Bill: Maintain The Jewish Majority Even If It Violates Rights
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: why do you need a dead unit, why not buy fresh one
asciilifeform: ultra-low budget project ?
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: e-waste, i'm against it
asciilifeform: not really possible to thoroughly reverse things without creating a pile of rubbish, sadly
swiftgeek: using e-waste for research pretty much lowers amount of it
asciilifeform: i'm on my 2nd board..
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sure it is , it's the best way
swiftgeek: but c201pa isn't very popular and people forget about me
swiftgeek: with thinkpads we had much more fun
asciilifeform: to be clear, asciilifeform is working with c101pa .
swiftgeek: we pretty much understand in full depth what thinkpad is
asciilifeform: ( i do not yet know what is in the 201pa )
|\n: any intel on supply chain of this stone? had to ask
asciilifeform: not currently
asciilifeform: |\n: best suspicion thus far is that it is a 'hardcopy fpga' (cheap, relatively, method for getting chip baked, they apply a custom metallization mask to a stock crystal)
|\n: any other devices with the extra similar one (even with brushed label)?
swiftgeek: and remember that silly thing where people claimed that quality of thinkpads plummeted since IBM stopped making thinkpads and lenovo took over?
swiftgeek: as if there was some noticeable change xD
asciilifeform: |\n: only chromebook. afaik all recently-rolledout units, have it
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i definitely noticed the change.
swiftgeek: IBM didn't make a single thinkpad since at least T20
asciilifeform: having used ~every thinkpad made.
swiftgeek: T line belongs to USI till T400/500, then lenovo took over
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you are a thinkpad aficionado, there is a patched x60 bios in the logs, iirc 2015
asciilifeform: we have several people here, using it
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i'm from #libreboot , dev :)
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i actually started with attempt to port generic coreboot to c101pa, and ended up finding the cr50 by accident
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: TrackPoint is 80C51 blob so we are reversing that too :)
asciilifeform: neato
asciilifeform: c101pa also includes a trackpad with flashable blob fw
swiftgeek: well traskpoint is mask rom
asciilifeform: thus far i know nothing about it aside from the update/reflash mechanism (it is done via the ec)
asciilifeform: i also have a sample fw blob
asciilifeform: but this is for much later.
swiftgeek: but patents are expiring so it's really pressing to make libre trackpoint, even at scale modem
swiftgeek: *model
asciilifeform: personally, i'd consider a box with no trackpad function, to be usable
asciilifeform: but perhaps that's just me
swiftgeek: anyway so far you have took some guesses that it's a infeon chip right?
swiftgeek: it certainly doesn't look like one
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: to complete the picture, my initial interest in cr50 was in the debug functionality; the thing can override #WP signal and rewrite the EC and boot roms , via usb snake. so it'd be quite convenient to have access. however the factory firmware locks it.
asciilifeform: it is not an infineon, this is more or less certain
asciilifeform: google baked it as a replacement for the infineon.
swiftgeek: machine is from 2013?
asciilifeform: ( i cannot rule out the possibility that it was built in cooperation with, or at the facility of , infineon; it is stamped 'TWN' so this is at least theoretically hinted )
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: 2018
swiftgeek: huh?
asciilifeform: i uncrated it in end of april
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/h1_fritz_chip.jpg
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes.
swiftgeek: from this pic, what's the newest date code ?
swiftgeek: winbond is from 2011
asciilifeform: that winbond's been in production since early 2000s
asciilifeform: ( it's the bootloader fw, btw )
swiftgeek: sure but they are not using old stock
asciilifeform: the c101pa itself was introduced in '17
swiftgeek: ah 101pa
swiftgeek: i confused the 2 for 1 and this is the thing?
asciilifeform: the h1 is the item in the right hand side of the photo
asciilifeform: marked in purple
swiftgeek: lol correct
asciilifeform: 'H1B2C'
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: so that whole time i was thinking this is c201pa
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: nope
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: what's the name of the board?
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa_open.jpg << machine
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: yeah i only care about board xD
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: here's a flatbed scan of the board, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822396☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:41 asciilifeform: for completeness, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_top.jpg + http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_btm.jpg ( apologies for the sad photos, they came out of a flatbed, evidently not ideal tool for this job )
swiftgeek: c201pa is called speedy
asciilifeform: this one is 'bob'
asciilifeform: also apparently was known as 'gru' in early in-house versions
swiftgeek: pretty awful but again wifi on m.2 card
asciilifeform: ( according to amstan , a fella from #linux-rockchip who introduced himself as one of the designers, but is rather tight-lipped )
swiftgeek: so if anything comes you can replace it lol
asciilifeform: wifi is soldered down on these
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: is it connected over sdio or pcie or usb?
asciilifeform: but in theory you can plug in usb wifi etc
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: yes correct
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: m.2 comes in many form factors
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: the wifi ? on this one ? seems to be on pci bus
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: great then you can replace it !
asciilifeform: with reballing etc. lol.
swiftgeek: no reballing lol
swiftgeek: it's m.2 card
asciilifeform: there's no socket on the pcb
asciilifeform: the module is soldered on
swiftgeek: yep
swiftgeek: i can't guess dimensions properly so let's assume it's the same as with c201pa
swiftgeek: M.2 Type 1216
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: you can infer exact dimension from the usbc jack
asciilifeform: ( or the plain usb3 )
swiftgeek: shitty sparklan example http://www.sparklan.com/p2-products-detail.php?PKey=77ffCKwjlQdwb8Ih1Lte5lnBX2_gCozga_6dk6DCy0s&WNSQ-261ACN(BT)
asciilifeform: yep looks like the same footprint
asciilifeform: how would you go about lifting it without ending up reflowing the internals?
swiftgeek: be sane
asciilifeform: prolly would need ir preheater for the underside ?
swiftgeek: not necessarily IR preheater or anything fancy but (any) preheater would be nice
swiftgeek: due to bending and stresses due to differential heating
asciilifeform: aha
swiftgeek: still with patience it shouldn't do that even if you don't have preheater
swiftgeek: and it kinda depends on thermal mass in that area
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you end up doing it, plz consider publishing the procedure
swiftgeek: why xD
swiftgeek: it's normal thing
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: grab yourself pile of e-waste and practice on that :>
asciilifeform: like anatomical practice on corpses, the approach has its obvious limits
asciilifeform: ( waste pcb won't tell you that you have not reflowed/mutilated/stress-fractured something )
swiftgeek: except that level up is grab pile of e-waste
swiftgeek: and fix them
asciilifeform: at any rate i am not presently concerned with the 80211 card
swiftgeek: wistron thinkpads are pretty decent when it comes to repair
asciilifeform: thus far i know how to cut power to it, and this suffices for my purpose
swiftgeek: (X series till x230 afair)
asciilifeform: ( its rail is controlled via EC )
swiftgeek: X240 was made by compal-lenovo joint venture
swiftgeek: and afair end result was worst aspect of them both combined
swiftgeek: (compal alone makes the best boards for debugging /repair)
swiftgeek: you can diagnose compal board in 5 minutes flat
swiftgeek: (given schematics and boardview)
asciilifeform: currently i am not very interested in intel iron
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well compal makes tons of things xD
asciilifeform: hence investigation of c101pa and similar
swiftgeek: remember osmocombb moto things?
swiftgeek: compal made them afair xD
asciilifeform: https://osmocom.org/projects/baseband/wiki/MotorolaC123 << these ?
swiftgeek: yep
swiftgeek: yeah compal :D
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: given your introduction ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822589 ) i assume you may be interested in verifying fact that cr50 is not a subfunctionality of the ordinary (i.e. kept in winbond spi ) bootrom or the EC controller ('nuvoton' arm , visible in right hand of photo ). this is very simple to do:☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:11 swiftgeek: doing simple fact checking, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 doesn't mark clearly fritz chip
asciilifeform: disable the spi boot rom using the method shown in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2382 article. then insert the 'suzyq' debug cable, shown in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2415 ;
asciilifeform: you will observe that you are still able to communicate with the machine
asciilifeform: because you are talking to cr50, which is active at all times, even when 'off'
asciilifeform: and it does not rely on the cpu (referred to as 'AP' in google's srcs)
asciilifeform: or the EC
swiftgeek: welp that's interesting and if it spews out a lot of uart then it's most likely running on some core
asciilifeform: it runs on the h1 device pictured in h1.jpg.
asciilifeform: in fact , if you are so fond of lifting bga, lift the cpu , the spi rom, and the ec, and you will find that you still get the /tty/USB0 shell
asciilifeform: !!up |\n
deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes.
swiftgeek: oh it's an entire shell?
swiftgeek: that's interesting for sure
asciilifeform: btw you will get EC uart on /dev/ttyUSB1
asciilifeform: and cpu uart ( from the rk3399 ) on /dev/ttyUSB2
asciilifeform: the latter , you can get root shell on, on stock machine if it is in dev mode
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: then i would really recommend finding dead one and sending chip to zeptobars
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i intend to send a unit to zeptobars in near future. i do not however expect any interesting result, afaik no 22nm or similar density device has ever been publicly reversed
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: why would you expect that llol
swiftgeek: i doubt it will be below 65nm
asciilifeform: got example of a successful public reversing of any recent (i.e. post-1995) crystal ?
asciilifeform: i'd luvv to be proven wrong on this subj
swiftgeek: xtal? who reverses that? :D
asciilifeform: not clock crystal, lol
asciilifeform: i mean, asic die.
asciilifeform: sorry, ru world terminology
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: they are marked usualy on die
swiftgeek: no need to reverse really, just look at it
asciilifeform: lol i was not speaking of timing xtal
swiftgeek: hopefully layers won't need to be removed
asciilifeform: given as it is a tpm/drm crock of shit, i fully expect false metal masks and the other joys of 'tamper resistence'
swiftgeek: but if they are bunch of dicks then first visible layer will be just metal blocking chip from the view
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: is it TPM for real?
swiftgeek: or do you just call it that
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: look in the src, it incorporates tpm
asciilifeform: i.e. 100% replacement of the old infineon they formerly used
swiftgeek: then yeah inform zeptobars about the need to remove metal layers
swiftgeek: it will make for interesting post lol
swiftgeek: sigh i think i lost video about removing layers xD
asciilifeform: the sad bit is that it is many yrs of labour, to go from even a high quality die shot, to functionality
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSW8dZeE1yM
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: you won't :D
asciilifeform: it so happens that i know how decapping etc is done.
swiftgeek: the point is to see something in it
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: my specific interest is to get arbitrary code exec on the device.
asciilifeform: rather than, say, to fill photo album with pretty pics.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sure but not looking can double the work
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: out of curiosity, what would you look for in a die shot ?
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: possible theories of what PMH7 is were pretty wild till we realized it's TC200G
swiftgeek: i finally realized from leftover clues
swiftgeek: but it would be clearly marked on the die as well
asciilifeform: i, for instance, would like to know which fpga was their starting point. and where its factory test pads are.
asciilifeform: and whether there is any mechanism to inhibit them
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes.
swiftgeek: yep and all that you will learn from photo of zeptobars
asciilifeform: ideally
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
swiftgeek: + you can take some educated guesses
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: even more ideally, would learn this without waiting for decaps.
asciilifeform: but this is still in progress.
asciilifeform: loper_os_cr50: hello ?
swiftgeek: well you will see standard cell library
swiftgeek: eventually somebody will match it to factory
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: you know how this usually ends, right ?
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: just like via matched their to what asmedia stole from them
|\n: imaginary, just in theory, can it be some ST72264G2
swiftgeek: fun case
asciilifeform: the way it usually ends, is that we learn something useful just in time for the device to go out of print.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: remember that recent AMD chipset from amdflaws?
asciilifeform: which is what the designer was banking on when he put in the false metallization layers etc.
asciilifeform: sure
swiftgeek: asmedia made it, using standard cell library stolen from VIA
swiftgeek: and i was wondering why we don't see so much VIA chipsets anymore xD
swiftgeek: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-cand-5_14-cv-03586/pdf/USCOURTS-cand-5_14-cv-03586-10.pdf
swiftgeek: oh wait that's another filing lol
asciilifeform: at any rate, my current approach will be to do some fuzzing of the cr50 console and slave spi interfaces
swiftgeek: this one https://insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/12326879
asciilifeform: if i can exploitably crash the thing , my job is done
asciilifeform: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822402 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:46 asciilifeform: one interesting observation, is that the update mechanism lets you flash in arbitrary crapola into 'rw' section ( it simply won't jump to it if it doesn't pass rsa(sha256(payload)) ) . so theoretically could put a nop sled there, ending with jump into the magic half of unlock routine. and then expose the thing to beta/gamma, and perhaps in a few months it will Do The Right Thing
swiftgeek: anyway back to the name
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: do you know what is the name of the board yet or not ?
swiftgeek: it's often close to coreboot name
asciilifeform: what do you mean by 'name' ?
asciilifeform: google's product code is 'bob'
asciilifeform: dev version of same, was 'gru'
swiftgeek: bob ? xD
swiftgeek: microsoft bob?
asciilifeform: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-for-chrome-os-devices << see vendor's chart.
asciilifeform: September 1, 2017 Asus Chromebook Flip C101PA Bob rk3399 etc
swiftgeek: yeah then judging from c201pa entry
swiftgeek: it's called bob
asciilifeform: you will find the string in the boot rom fw also
swiftgeek: that will make for shitty search results in google
swiftgeek: bob repair guide
swiftgeek: lol
asciilifeform: there is very little to be had in the search results, other than the src repo itself
swiftgeek: they are doing this shitty naming on purpose
swiftgeek: so i won't find anything xD
asciilifeform: c101pa finds various retailers, and, if you dig persistently, asciilifeform's www, and that's currently more or less it.
asciilifeform: to be fair, it's a pretty recent box.
swiftgeek: ok can't find anything on any usual suspects
swiftgeek: it should appear about now for that device
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: here, btw, is the factory boot rom (crippled coreboot) from that winbond : http://loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/factory_rom.bin
asciilifeform: you can extract strings from it, and see which bob rev etc
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: repair guide is something that asus supplies for their devices
swiftgeek: it's just a block diagram and power sequencing / tree
asciilifeform: repair guide only shows you how to get the box open, really
swiftgeek: no xD
swiftgeek: it doesn't show that at all xD
asciilifeform: not much use ( it is not difficult to open, and the c100pa published disassembly applies to this one, the screws are in same places )
asciilifeform: there is nothing usefully removable on the mb, aside from the heat sink
asciilifeform: so i'm not sure what you expect to find in a vendor repair book
swiftgeek: just board shots from 2 sides with few testpoints, block diagram and power sequencing / tree
swiftgeek: that's it
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: i have a pretty good idea of the power sequencing, from reading the ec and cr50 srcs
asciilifeform: but sure.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: so if you have some asus authorized repair shop
swiftgeek: bring cookies
swiftgeek: and vodka
asciilifeform: lol what does 'repair shop' do aside from swapping mb
asciilifeform: ( i do it right here with 10min of work )
swiftgeek: silly stuff like fuses apparently
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i don't consider swapping a board as repair
asciilifeform: yes in china there are repair shops that lift bga etc.
asciilifeform: but you will not find these in usa.
swiftgeek: i thought you were in russia
asciilifeform: nope
asciilifeform: that was |\n
swiftgeek: ah
swiftgeek: then just bring cookies and whatnot
swiftgeek: it never hurts trying
asciilifeform: i don't see this as a productive line of probing
swiftgeek: (at the end of their shift)
asciilifeform: board-swapping monkeys.
swiftgeek: nah
swiftgeek: you need to at least check some points c'mon
asciilifeform: srsly, try walking into repair with chromebook. 'we can reset this for you for $50', lol
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i would bake cookies and bring them some xd
asciilifeform: the schem, for instance, is not given to repair contractors. or i would already have found it.
swiftgeek: they are
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sometimes it's schematics sometimes it's boardview alone only
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: if something ever leaks it first appears on chinafix xd
asciilifeform: right
asciilifeform: and it ain't there.
asciilifeform: last i saw.
swiftgeek: what i mean is that chromebooks aren't popular in china
asciilifeform: fwiw i don't have any use for anything short of the schem
swiftgeek: so likeliness of it leaking on its own is tiny
asciilifeform: i have already identified all of the major components
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well lol, it's about netlist
asciilifeform: well yes, the schem
asciilifeform: fwiw the only nonstandard chip is the h1.
swiftgeek: we need it to have something proper
asciilifeform: everything else, is off-the-shelf
swiftgeek: otherwise you are literally reversing open source code to figure out something that is presented clearly and for sure in boardview/schematics
swiftgeek: that m.2 module thing took seriously way too much time for us xD
asciilifeform: according to amstan , the fella claiming to be a designer of c101pa , everything connected with cr50 is deeply trade secret, and shared with no one outside of google.
swiftgeek: i only realized it when investigating some newer SSDs
swiftgeek: pfffff
asciilifeform: but i have no way to verify the truth of what he said, aside from noticing that there is 0 discussion anywhere on the net, aside from #trilema and my www, of the h1.
asciilifeform: ( if you know of a counter-example, please link )
swiftgeek: together with your explanation of purpose of the chip
swiftgeek: it's not possible xD
swiftgeek: either chipie does far less or the thing is secret
asciilifeform: so far my only clue that h1 actually runs the given fw , is that i was able to flash in a vendor update : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-08#1821699 and ended up with a slightly different, in the ways suggested by the src, console☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-08 17:15 asciilifeform: i was able to flash in the https://gsdview.appspot.com/chromeos-localmirror/distfiles/cr50.r0.0.10.w0.3.4.tbz2 image ; it supports a few moar commands, including 'rma open' returned-to-factory unlocker thing. but result was , unsurprisingly, 'with notes from hitler only' : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/c101pa_unlock_nodice.txt
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: anyway authorized repair shop has ridiculous amount of tools to diagnose board
asciilifeform: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/chip/g/ << starting point re console functionality ( locked and unlocked )
swiftgeek: whether they use it or not it's up to them xD
swiftgeek: just like apple geniuses
swiftgeek: with that amount of tools you could fix those devices during a coffee break xD
asciilifeform: a chinese shop could, for instance, mount the http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa_dbg.jpg ( 'google servo' ) connector, on to the vacant pads. BUT this does not give me anything that i do not already have via the 'suzyq'.
swiftgeek: libreboot thinkpad doesn't have it easy, neither BSDLs nor XOR test chains are described for our montevina targets
asciilifeform: not to mention that i do not have the 'servo' device, nor see anything to be won from building it ( it gives access to the consoles, which i already have, and spi, which i already have via soldered probes, and that's it. )
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: ask paulk-*
asciilifeform: the fella in #rockchip-linux ?
swiftgeek: * signifies device paulk is connecting from
swiftgeek: #libreboot / #coreboot at least
asciilifeform: paulk-gagarine ?
swiftgeek: yep
asciilifeform: seems that we have already spoken
asciilifeform: see the june 9 log.
swiftgeek: gagarine is the machine
asciilifeform: ( their chan's )
asciilifeform: https://irclog.whitequark.org/linux-rockchip/2018-06-09
swiftgeek: so don't be confused if he logs from different node xD
asciilifeform: fella seemed quite surprised that h1 exists at all
swiftgeek: sure it was planned and everything was so pompous about it
swiftgeek: i didn't know they have actually made it finally
asciilifeform: at any rate i encourage folx who think that i dreamed it all, to build the snake ( i posted schem ) and do the exact experiment suggested earlier in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822821 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:57 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: given your introduction ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822589 ) i assume you may be interested in verifying fact that cr50 is not a subfunctionality of the ordinary (i.e. kept in winbond spi ) bootrom or the EC controller ('nuvoton' arm , visible in right hand of photo ). this is very simple to do:
swiftgeek: and included in commercial device at that
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!up hl`
deedbot: hl` voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: hl`: hello ?
hl`: Hi.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: anyway if you can tell i care a lot about e-waste and such chipie is creating serious problems
asciilifeform: what brings you to #trilema, hl` ?
hl`: I'm a longtime owner-control advocate.
hl`: I found your blogpost on lobste.rs.
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: as far as i'm concerned , all boxes not yet cured of fritz are 'ewaste'
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: as soon as they roll off the conveyor.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well if you want to blame google/asus sure
swiftgeek: but don't actually treat them like that
asciilifeform: hl`: please read the chan logs and make use of the search, before asking q, http://btcbase.org/log/
hl`: Sure.
swiftgeek: it's kinda like neighbouring country dumping some trash in forest of other country
swiftgeek: *in your country
swiftgeek: while it's illegal dump, you have to deal with it nevertheless
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i personally am more annoyed at rubbish masquerading as computer, than by general-purpose rubbish
asciilifeform: ( and by the total unavailability, other than as antique, of actual computer )
swiftgeek: hmm let's take last ditch detour, FCC ID
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i can tell at the very least it doesn't look like anything ROHM would make (the chip)
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: UAY-W8997-M1216
asciilifeform: as printed on bottom of chassis
swiftgeek: yeah another one of those modular certification
asciilifeform: doesn't give much .
swiftgeek: just m.2 module
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: https://fccid.io/UAY-W8997-M1216/Letter/Modular-Approval-Request-3270024
asciilifeform: right
swiftgeek: it's a new form of getting FCC certification
swiftgeek: and you get confirmation on size
swiftgeek: m.2 1216
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: understand, i have a quite specific aim in re this machine, outlined in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822866 . i do not particularly care re the irrelevant details, e.g. the shape of the antennae in m2, or the exact diameters of the screw holes, etc.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:09 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: my specific interest is to get arbitrary code exec on the device.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sure, but you can replace card :)
asciilifeform: i can also 'replace the card' by switching off its power rail via ec and inserting usb nic dongle.
asciilifeform: so this part is not so interesting imho.
asciilifeform: but i will add, cr50 also hangs from same vreg's enable line and can switch it... back on
asciilifeform: ( afaik strictly via the console, but this remains to be determined )
asciilifeform: i've established that cr50 ~will~ accept fw update if ver is incremented and rsa signature is valid. so anybody with google's rsa key and 10 seconds of physical access can insert new fw into cr50.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: ditto for any other TPM
asciilifeform: ( this was possible because i purchased a unit having cr50.r0.0.10.w0.3.3 fw )
swiftgeek: what i'm annoyed about is that infeon is not distributing updates directly to consumers
swiftgeek: so if somebody has separate module they are left vulnerable
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: the typical x86 pc 'infineon' etc tpm, cannot do such interesting things as overriding bios write protect, accessing microphone, etc
asciilifeform: so 'it's a tpm' is not anything like whole story.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: it kinda can in very specific circumstances
asciilifeform: i am not particularly interested in infineon, you can safely desolder it from any box that has it
asciilifeform: and render it harmless
swiftgeek: sure
swiftgeek: would be nice to have nicer implementation with riscv :D
asciilifeform: cr50 however is 'glued with broken glass'
asciilifeform: i fucking hate riscv
asciilifeform: !#s riscv
a111: 7 results for "riscv", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=riscv
asciilifeform: it was designed by wreckers
asciilifeform: and pushed under false pretenses
swiftgeek: j2 would be fine too
asciilifeform: it is not difficult to design a usable cpu, if you don't need bincompatibility with anything
asciilifeform: fabrication, is the rub.
swiftgeek: well it's already implemented in mass produced devices
asciilifeform: other than as fpga softcore -- where ?
swiftgeek: nvidia gpus
asciilifeform: ahahahaha
asciilifeform: no thx.
swiftgeek: it's a start
asciilifeform: it is no start.
asciilifeform: nvidia is on same shitlist as intel
asciilifeform: and for same reason.
swiftgeek: sure but they will chip into contributing to toolchain
asciilifeform: fuck riscv. it was deliberately designed with no arithmetical carry, to cripple cryptography.
swiftgeek: how does j2 compare? :P
asciilifeform: j2 at least has the virtue of being small, and fitting in ice40 fpga.
swiftgeek: so does picorv32
asciilifeform: ( or maybe not quite fitting, but it's close )
asciilifeform: understand, i can have ice40 boards to fit lappy chassis roll off conveyor in 6mo, if i want.
asciilifeform: but would like to try cleansing commercial arm64 board, first.
asciilifeform: if none can be cleansed -- we make from scratch, yes.
swiftgeek: yeah i was just saying about having TPM module implemented in open manner
asciilifeform: why the FUCK would you want 'open' manacles ?
asciilifeform: what does it even mean.
asciilifeform: how about NO manacles.
swiftgeek: then everything would need to be implemented properly in SoC
hl`: no, TPMs _can_ be used to secure your own stuff if _you_ control them
hl`: not really trustworthy if they have non-free firmware on them, but theoretically they have a use case
asciilifeform: hl`: nope.
swiftgeek: hl`: not exactly that case either
asciilifeform: they're a nsa boobytrap, sold under the fraudulent pretense of 'security'
asciilifeform: over in the civilized world, we http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ our crypto.
asciilifeform: no magic chips needed.
swiftgeek: hl`: it depends on root of trust being somewhere else
asciilifeform: whole concept of 'root of trust' is a crock of shit.
swiftgeek: otherwise it can be pretty easily replayed
asciilifeform: we don't pki, and we don't ssl.
hl`: that doesn't protect against physical attacks.
swiftgeek: hl`: you don't need physical attack there really
asciilifeform: hl`: i am not interested in buying iron that specifically protects against everybody-but-nsa physical attack.
asciilifeform: and i am definitely not interested in iron that protects against ~my~, the owner's, physical attack.
asciilifeform: my machine. i read or flip whatever fucking bits i want.
swiftgeek: hl`: if you have more devices on same bus you can figure out something to sniff it, and later replay
swiftgeek: hl`: but OTP root of trust is not a solution either
hl`: yes, exactly. i'm talking about the use of owner-controlled TPMs to secure against other parties.
asciilifeform: tell me again why i would want 'tpm' if i have an airgapped 1990s machine for all computations on secrets.
swiftgeek: hl`: especially when you think about reselling the device
asciilifeform: you don't resell crypto hardware, you thermite it
asciilifeform: in a barrel.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/spy-stuff/ << like this.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: it depends on having root-of-trust (tpm isn't it), then it's a fun store of secrets
asciilifeform: my 'root of trust' is iron that i assembled with own hands, out of soviet components, and sealed with glitter polish. fuck fritz tpm.
swiftgeek: if there is no root of trust on device then it's just another layer of obfuscation
hl`: there's not really that much point to tpms if physical attacks aren't in your threat model. if they are, they can provide resistance against evil maids, etc.
asciilifeform: hl`: how much do you like google's tpm, which opens in 3 seconds to 'evil maid' with the magic rsa key ?
swiftgeek: hl`: softbrick in thinkpad provides resistance against evil maids :)
hl`: asciilifeform: completely unacceptable in my view, since it's anti-owner control.
hl`: to be clear, any company which ships chips fused to only run their code gets a 'fuck you' from me
asciilifeform: whole concept of 'tpm' is explicitly counter to owner control. starting from when it was called 'palladium' and pushed by ms.
swiftgeek: hl`: 1. lock device in dock (with key), softbrick, profit
hl`: asciilifeform: not exactly. the fundamental premise is just to measure the computing environment - this can be used to pro-owner ends if you control the tpm.
asciilifeform: this is the fundamental fallacy that resulted in a market empty of honest iron.
asciilifeform: if i cannot audit the contents of the device, it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of magic key.
hl`: pretty much - agreed that TPMs with nonfree firmware (i.e. all of them which currently exist) are pretty dubious for that reason.
swiftgeek: yep
hl`: (especially since they have a bloody _firmware update_ capacity. !)
asciilifeform: crypto on single-die device of modern (i.e. past 25 yrs ) manufacture, is a losing proposition.
asciilifeform: no matter how you cut it.
swiftgeek: hl`: we have seen plenty mask rom exploits already
hl`: swiftgeek: hmm, can you elaborate?
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: go and maskrom-exploit my made-in-zelenograd-in-1985 cpu.
swiftgeek: hl`: not really, but whether medium is ro or rw it doesn't matter
swiftgeek: it still has ram and you can exploit it
swiftgeek: ram and cpu *
asciilifeform: !#s specificity of diddling
a111: 50 results for "specificity of diddling", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=specificity%20of%20diddling
hl`: Sure. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has managed to dump decrypted Intel microcode yet. Seems to me you could probably accomplish something with glitching.
asciilifeform: ^ starting point for discussion.
swiftgeek: hl`: and nobody dumped yet trackpoint code either :>
swiftgeek: and it's just a silly 80c51 mcu
swiftgeek: without ADC
asciilifeform: we were discussing 'hardware which you trust to do rsa exponentiation' , neh
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: yep it needs to be open otherwise lol
asciilifeform: which resolves to 1) i wrote the code 2) i know that the die was not built in advance to subvert the functionality of said code
asciilifeform: !!up hl`
deedbot: hl` voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: 'open' isn't worth a sparrow's fart, per se
asciilifeform: if you cannot determine via physical means that the proggy as-published is actually executing on the given device
asciilifeform: it, and no other
asciilifeform: this is physically ~impossible with e.g. 60nm
swiftgeek: you wouldn't go below 65nm if you are sane for tpm
swiftgeek: cost / power efficiency / tooling
asciilifeform: speaking of all recent (sub-2uM , really) densities
swiftgeek: and reliability /yield
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: we can go far with maskless lithography :P
asciilifeform: let's take an example of trustworthy iron : K573RF4 ( https://eandc.ru/pdf/mikroskhema/k573rf4.pdf )
hl`: asciilifeform: that's actually an interesting idea - i've toyed with a similar idea previously, though for different applications. basically, my idea was to come up with some way of algorithmically generating algorithms such that the algorithm generator can know the correct answer computationally easily, but where the structure of the algorithm is highly randomised such that it resists analysis in the
hl`: general case - basically using the halting problem as a trapdoor function.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: those packages are expensive and cute :)
swiftgeek: hl`: google chip fingerprinting
asciilifeform: this is an eprom. and i've had them in physical possession long enuff to know that they weren't touched by fucking nato. and , on top of this, i can physically photo the crystal without decap.
swiftgeek: DARPA was messing with that a lot
hl`: i.e., you'd have to solve the halting problem to write a program which can analyse the generated programs in the general case, meaning that any computational malevolence (compromised silicon, etc.) can only compute the result of the algorithm by executing it unless someone solves the halting problem
asciilifeform: hl`: this is a perpetuum mobile.
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: no this is qualcomm modem code
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-12#1236209 << see also thread☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-12 17:41 ascii_field: (see also, for similar lulz, 'whitebox cryptography')
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: yes, and it's snake oil.
swiftgeek: to what?
swiftgeek: everybody knows it burns eyes
asciilifeform: it exists strictly to slightly increase the headache for reversers, and is not interesting tech from my pov
swiftgeek: well a lot for researchers
swiftgeek: and not at all for anyone trying to exploit it xD
asciilifeform: at any rate there does not currently exist ANY usable crypto algo, of any purpose, for which a complexity class reduction to any class is known.
asciilifeform: and in particular a reduction of ~every~ generated key, rather than avg case.
asciilifeform: there is not even a proof that the difficulty of rsa is equivalent to that of factoring.
asciilifeform: ( and there is no known complexity class pindown of factoring. )
asciilifeform: if anybody told you otherwise, he is a dirty liar, and probably selling snake oil.
swiftgeek: nah i was just referring that qcom code is generating code that generates to generate code that (....)
asciilifeform: back upthread -- discussion of 'roots of trust' WILL start with , at the very MINIMUM, iron where i can fucking see the transistors through optical microscope. and never with anything else.
asciilifeform: any other notion of 'root of trust' is fritzian.
swiftgeek: goldberg machine made out of code
asciilifeform brb, teatime
swiftgeek: hl`: anyway only with proper root of trust you can measure all stages with tpm
hl`: swiftgeek: yeah.
swiftgeek: otherwise i will exploit other device on the bus and replay it remotely
swiftgeek: and in x86 case that happens to be EC
hl`: that's actually a fair point too. as implemented in e.g. PCs nowadays, even putting the closed firmware issues aside, the way they are integrated is _not_ secure. they're just connected using open pins to the CPU, you could easily replay everything
swiftgeek: (or worse - ME)
hl`: (see TPM reset attacks. the TPM specification people claim that these were fixed with TPM1.2, this is not correct however)
swiftgeek: yep that makes it possible even with root of trust
swiftgeek: but exploiting TPM firmware so much that it resets
swiftgeek: and TPM implemented so poorly that it doesn't reset x86 with it
swiftgeek: meh
swiftgeek: anyway so far there is no root of trust implemented in SoC that respect end user
swiftgeek: anyway that covers everything for me, i can only wait for more docs to appear (or dead boards)
swiftgeek: bye o/
asciilifeform: in one ear and out the other, apparently .
asciilifeform apologizes to log reader for having allowed this waste of time to clutter the chan.
asciilifeform: if anyone was puzzle re naggum's remark concerning 'read only brains' -- here they are!
asciilifeform: *puzzled
BingoBoingo: <hl`> that doesn't protect against physical attacks. << Buy a dog and carry a hammer
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: somehow the derps obsess with 'wife replaced while you sleep' scenario. aaaand then go on to advocate elaborate tpmdildo that makes this scenario actually workable.
asciilifeform: via nobus.
asciilifeform: rotten old fungus man rms, you can say whatever about, but he was exactly on target re how this particular item will go, back in '97. first, 'it only stores keys, harmless!' ( and won't give'em up to usg Because Reasons ... ) then 'ok now it can rewrite fw' 'yer lying, they Would Never!11!!' '...'
BingoBoingo: Well for most people, wife replaced while they sleep would probably be +EV
asciilifeform: lol
BingoBoingo: And with the read only brains, only hope they have is that they are interesting enough to an MP for them to recieve their exploitable crash that re-enables write access.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it isn't clear to me, what, if anything, these folx wanted, other than to waste our time.
asciilifeform: 'go to repair shop!' the cheek.
BingoBoingo: that, or to repeat the "common" process they are sure gets done all the time.
asciilifeform: it isn't clear that all of their derpery has to date added up to any 'gets done'
asciilifeform: considering e.g. libreboot
asciilifeform: and its continued derping with intel
asciilifeform: !#s libreboot
a111: 95 results for "libreboot", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=libreboot
asciilifeform: ^ dun forget what they're famous for..
BingoBoingo: Trannygate
asciilifeform: aaha
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823179 << phunphakt, asciilifeform ( in ascii_butugychag period ) was a slave in precisely that bit of idiocy, sat in the peanut gallery at the derp committee, etc☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 21:15 swiftgeek: DARPA was messing with that a lot
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-15#1714991 << see also. )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-09-15 23:48 asciilifeform: kanzure: i spilled the beans from a similar darpa conference that i attended, in the heart of the beast itself, few yrs back ( it's in the l0gz, spoiler : multilinear map homomorphic crypto is bunkum ) and still waiting for gasenwagen
asciilifeform: afaik boneh et al are still there, still pushing the same lulzoil
BingoBoingo: Well, living in the land of Mate crackpipes you get to see this behavior taken to extremes. They are playing the game where they TRY to burn as many man hours as possible in an unproductive manner.
BingoBoingo: Productivity is dangerous. In Uruguay the danger is raising the bar and taking away from crack pipe time. In DARPA land the dangers being fended off are myriad.
asciilifeform: in darpa land they do what in civilized world is called 'освоение бюджета'.
asciilifeform: (i.e. snarfing up that delish printolade like there's no tomorrow )
asciilifeform: each wunderwaffen has a seekrit committee , with nsa-vetted gentry, and a larger nonseekrit ('commercial'), for ladling out grantolade to academics and quasiacademics
asciilifeform: seekrit committee generally concerned with specifics of applications (i.e. anything where you gotta know the identity of intended victim, say)
asciilifeform: the nonseekrit -- with the bulk of the implementation detail.
asciilifeform: upstack, observe the lulzfest, where http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823026 and then http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823205 demands fritz on-die in cpu ! for 'security!'☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:42 hl`: I'm a longtime owner-control advocate.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 21:24 hl`: that's actually a fair point too. as implemented in e.g. PCs nowadays, even putting the closed firmware issues aside, the way they are integrated is _not_ secure. they're just connected using open pins to the CPU, you could easily replay everything
asciilifeform: 'pleeeze, pleeeeeze make it secure from MY OWN HANDS!!!'
asciilifeform: 'pleeeze make it so only obama can read with nobus key!!'
asciilifeform: the very notion that anything whatsoever happening on a nato-produced 22nm die is 'owner controlled'...
asciilifeform: they dun make tards, apparently even, like they used to. i swear , the tards from 10y ago were not this thick.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823242 << naaah BingoBoingo , see, different thing. the crack smokers for the most part only burn ~own~ time. ~these~ folx, they want to burn yours, and mine.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 22:15 BingoBoingo: Well, living in the land of Mate crackpipes you get to see this behavior taken to extremes. They are playing the game where they TRY to burn as many man hours as possible in an unproductive manner.
asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if, say, google dev showed up and 'yes i'ma pgp to mircea_popescu the magic key', or even 'here's the schem'. but nooo, instead they come to 'explain' to us how 'tpm can be used to benefit you' .
asciilifeform: because somehow this is not insulting to the intelligence of the fucking fruit fly stuck to my display. not even speaking of the l1 lordship.
danielpbarron: crack smokers will burn any time they can get ahold of, granted they generally glob onto other cracker smokers of the have-money-to-buy-more variety
asciilifeform: certainly.
trinque: perhaps the compartmentalized nonsense factory is not such a strong longterm strategy
trinque: for one, I'd expect anyone who spent enough time in one to come out the other side schizophrenic
asciilifeform: trinque: ever meet these folx in the flesh ?
trinque: gladly, never.
asciilifeform: they're exactly like eichmann, perfect little marvels of industrious compartmental schizoid
asciilifeform: usg cultivates these, from childhood
asciilifeform: see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822328 re their public end.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 01:35 asciilifeform: https://archive.li/A4vO1 << various lulz in re that famous octopus.
asciilifeform: one autist sqeals in delight designing shutter for the drone camera, another -- the rocket proximity cap, another -- likes to draw cute little octopi; etc
asciilifeform: not 1 would be caught dead giving half a shit re what it all adds up to
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1584061 << see also.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 14:31 mircea_popescu: japan got buldozed chiefly because of the utterly immoral attitude of thinking people at the time.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ( and other awake folx ) , plz to point future 'fact checker' i_came_from_reddit folx, to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822821 + http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822990 etc, if i'm off in meatland☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:57 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: given your introduction ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822589 ) i assume you may be interested in verifying fact that cr50 is not a subfunctionality of the ordinary (i.e. kept in winbond spi ) bootrom or the EC controller ('nuvoton' arm , visible in right hand of photo ). this is very simple to do:
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:35 asciilifeform: so far my only clue that h1 actually runs the given fw , is that i was able to flash in a vendor update : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-08#1821699 and ended up with a slightly different, in the ways suggested by the src, console
asciilifeform: or better yet, if they dun show signs of a half-working brain, just !!down , dun hesitate, 'ваше слово, товарищ маузер!'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i still find it lulzy how google apparently banked on nobody outside of their heathen pit getting hold of the fucking debug hose.
asciilifeform: with which in 10 minutes you can verify that, yes, independent fucking fritz chip
asciilifeform: !!up oda
deedbot: oda voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, i bought myself a meter and a half long spoon paddle.
asciilifeform: oda: hello ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sounds versatile
mircea_popescu: hand crafted wood. dood was beffudled, didn't really even want to sell it to me. "it's for ovens".
oda: Hi, just got here after reading the cr50 article on loper-os
oda: Just wanted to lurk a bit and see what sort of chat goes on here
asciilifeform: oda: you will definitely want to read the log ( http://btcbase.org/log/ ) and use the search box.
mircea_popescu: mostly terrorism and sexual perversion.
oda: asciilifeform: thanks, will do.
asciilifeform: oda: you can start with today's , let's say from http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822562 point, the last set of cr50 people☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 18:59 deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: except for alf, he's militantly anti-technical.
asciilifeform: more or less!11
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm picturing the archaetypical baba yaga scoop
mircea_popescu: just about, but flat. perfect buttwarmer.
asciilifeform: http://volshebstvo.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/baba-yaga-pech.jpg << for ref.
asciilifeform bbl,meat
oda: !!register pubkey-url https://tiuxo.com/Brian%20Clemens.asc
deedbot: Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
mircea_popescu: and in other fuck-this-failed-civilisation, NO SHOP in all the fucking town had a proper beach towel. the chinese overlords have decided all towels must be up to 1/3 size and that's it. "i want a towel king bed size" "you mean sheets ?" "no dood. towel." "here's the towels." "these are small."
mircea_popescu: eventually went to specialist store, bought 3 meters of double-width towel substance, had them rodeando it. 3 * 3500 + 3000 for the work = ~30 bux. now i have a proper beach towel, can seat five.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822546 << it's sorta like naming yourself Brick Curb, but hey, if that's what you actually want...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 18:33 apt-get: rude tbh, I've been using this one online for quite some time
mircea_popescu: then again alf almost sounds like an anime character, doesn't seem to have hurt him any.
mircea_popescu: o wow, that reminds me
mircea_popescu: !#s "bee" "dog"
a111: 114 results for "\"bee\" \"dog\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22bee%22%20%22dog%22
danielpbarron: oda, also the true word of God
mircea_popescu: !#s "alfer"
a111: 67 results for "\"alfer\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22alfer%22
mircea_popescu: hey Mocky : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-24#1413916 kinda lamost promises a case for saying alfer character ~is based on~ alf!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-24 04:23 mircea_popescu: omfg alf sees the world like a bee-dog : in black and white and all pixelated.
mircea_popescu: as the whole bee-dog has been a thing for all these many years.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822555 << why do you think so ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 18:37 apt-get: the reason I keep using this nick is because it's quite handy to have personal info drowned out in a sea of noise when someone tries to look it up
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822571 << are we talking, bipedal or quadripedal ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:01 trinque: one might, say, introduce himself, like even my cat does when he walks into the room
mircea_popescu: oda, try putting it in p.bvulpes.com ; that tiuxo site uses some ssh bullshit / isn't on the web.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822579 << you'd be surprised how narrow that set actually is.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:05 |\n: apart from things unspeakable on freenode i love to bring up tor relays and i got a job as an admin of shitty place
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822603 << for the record, that made absolutely no sense.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:14 |\n: even if something is not clear - hardware is full of shit, supplying any trust towards vendors is as stupid as saying that someone might now have some private keys from whatever, being it an IT or automotive industry (pick any), i believe that is why some papers on standards that might shed light on ways of how proprietary things (that belong to owners) work
mircea_popescu: !!up oda
deedbot: oda voiced for 30 minutes.
oda: mircea_popescu: I got it working with the paste site in the deedbot help site. Also that tiuxo site is my site. Cloudflare filtering might have denied deedbot, I filter out China / Russia / Korea and a few useragent strings I was getting a lot of weird traffic from
mircea_popescu: we don't generally support the idiocy known as https, so merely you not serving http may put you outside of the web.
mircea_popescu: not to mention the whole pile of shit that's cloudflare.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well Google probably didn't exact anyone to care to look
mircea_popescu: see http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/ to get an idea where the republic's coming from re all this "convenience" and web n.0 bs.
oda: jej, so this is a cat-v type crowd?
mircea_popescu: actually... worse.
mircea_popescu: in fact, there was a collision at some point, where was it...
oda: not that there's anything wrong with that. just that my convictions regarding software choices are a bit more moderate
mircea_popescu: here : http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/
mircea_popescu: tl;dr : cat-v was a bunch of dorks collected around a chosen kid, trying to do things. chosen kid died and they turned to scar tissue.
mircea_popescu: different from, say, comp.lang.lisp archive in that a) their chosen kid wasn't naggum and b) they actually had gathered around properly, as opposed to the idiots on bbs, captive in their self-important notions of independence and other man-alone-isms.
danielpbarron: i once triggered a guy to the point of thinking he might have his first fist fight, over anti-ssl, till his friend dragged him away
oda: I enjoy following nerd drama but I try to stay out of arguments. Only one in recent memory was a bunch of people calling me an idiot for swapping on zram (which I kind of have to do on my shitty netbook)
mircea_popescu: who cares about ram ?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, was this at burning geek ?
danielpbarron: lol yes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822645 << this is retarded.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:22 swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i'm only speaking about doing it once in history xD
danielpbarron: i was wearing my openbsd shirt that read "Keep calm and abandon OpenSSL"
mircea_popescu: we're not here to try and convince mommy that we're cool kids. we're here to fuck her in the ass until it prolapses, and leave her chained to a pole in the park where all the used needles are.
mircea_popescu: because we don't love her secretly. we hate her, and quite fucking plainly.
danielpbarron: guy says "and replace it with what??" to which I said "idk, libreSSL, but i'm not really a fan of ssl in general"
mircea_popescu: lol.
danielpbarron: and he flipped out, started accusing me of working with the enemy, got all shaky and had to be literally dragged away
mircea_popescu: really, replace it with nothing. ssl is a braindead answer to a malformed question nobody asked.
mircea_popescu: http is a ~stateless~ protocol. you need state, do something else. no, there may not be such a thing as a "website login", not anymore than there can be a planesubmarine.
danielpbarron: speaking of the buring geek, bitcoin is (i suspect) a banned word/topic
danielpbarron: it's "crypto" now
danielpbarron: as in, anything else, just not bitcoin, that thing i told them years ago they shouldn't be spending on hotdogs and coffee
mircea_popescu: well, they're the kids with no clue or skill, hoping to eat off the usg's printouts. what's to expect.
danielpbarron: what i expected has come to fruition, nobody who would attend such an event can afford to buy bitcoin anymore
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822648 << can you step back from your own insanity, and look at how they fucked your head ? really, you're going to go through your entire life "taking lessons", ie not doing anything, because that's what they made you do it at the child abuse camp they call college ? and then what, you'll be 80 and dying on a borrowed mattress, and... what ? you'll have had all these lessons you "took" ? wh☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:23 swiftgeek: asciilifeform: the point is to take some lessons from that 1 unit
mircea_popescu: ere the fuck did you take them ?
mircea_popescu: you took nothing. start ~ACTUALLY~ taking. heads on pikes.
danielpbarron: they have some app exibitors can use to promote where they'll be and what they are serving (i reserved a vendor campsite specifically for the purpose of provoking conversation about the Bible) -- i also mention in my "profile" that i'm a lord in the most serene republic of Bitcoin, which mysteriously gets removed. I add it again, removed again. They apparently don't mind a religious "cult" but not
danielpbarron: of the bitcoin variety
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, should be a pretty decent heuristic indicator for you. one of the two things you're in is going somewhere, according to the beast.
ben_vulpes: heh tmsr shadowbanned even at bm
ben_vulpes: write it up, danielpbarron !
danielpbarron: i'm working on an article that suggests otherwise, porcfest is too small a thing to go to such existential lengths
mircea_popescu: heh.
danielpbarron: they placed me next to the celebritarian muslim guy. idk if coincidence, but i'm glad -- the guy will be serving food, and food vendors attract all the foot traffic