log
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BingoBoingo: !~later tell mircea_popescu http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/iJ8bz/?raw=true
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737193 << in no sense more terminal than say apple.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 14:41 asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://seekingalpha.com/article/4122890-tesla-approaches-terminal-decline
asciilifeform: exactly same item
mircea_popescu: right. "has cash" usg printed for it.
asciilifeform: moar spectacular tho, candle burns at both ends
mircea_popescu: but for the nitpick : it's not the job of the ceo to know why robots have limits.
asciilifeform: it is if he opens mouth re robots
mircea_popescu: this totally orc bullshit where everyone is an expert in everyone's field already...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ceo is an operational management position.
mircea_popescu: cto's job is to understand why robots have limits, if the company is doing robots.
asciilifeform: gensec is also managerial position. hruschev and his corn speeches remain lulzy.
asciilifeform: fella oughta chat with his cto, vizier, etc before becoming a public clown.
mircea_popescu: indeed. but here's the hidden truth : the idiots TALKING TO HIM about it are no different from the people asking beautician re politics.
mircea_popescu: ie, he's an idiot for answering, but someone somewhere was an idiot for asking.
asciilifeform: these are always on hand
mircea_popescu: THAT someone isn't admitting to idiocy, preferring isntead to derp about how "Ceo is supposed to know all".
mircea_popescu: if it were workable for ceo to know all why would corporations even be needed in first place ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737203 << i'm happier with properly reporting keys as 4090 bits, and pointedly explaining WHY the difference to the user.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 15:09 asciilifeform: but you can trivially show that using the bottom bits in this way lets you actually get 4x as many possible primes
mircea_popescu: politically preferable.
mircea_popescu: im not going to have my tech people do backflips to seamlessly bridge imperial idiocy into reality when i could just have the marketing people point out to how the empire lied by making the difference a point of difference.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i made a stab of computing a lower bound of bitness for hypothetical '4096b of possible prime' but ran out of juice.
mircea_popescu: waste of juice.
asciilifeform: it's an answerable question, euler could have made short work of it
mircea_popescu: euler is dead.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737223 << so what, have 0-led p, q ? what are you on aboot.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 15:20 asciilifeform: there is no legitimate reason to do it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the only case where this is a problem is 0-led p + 0-led q
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737238 << win.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 16:51 lobbes: Good news on archive front; archive.is d00d has agreed to add my ips to his cloudflare whitelist
asciilifeform: if only 1 -- then high bits of p,q remain seekrit
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 0 led either one, or rather, non 11 led either one gives you a sub 4096 N
asciilifeform: hmm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737241 << tell him that if he regs a name ima donate to his project.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 17:04 lobbes: Very accommodating d00d indeed. I invited him here, as well, but you know how that goes
asciilifeform: i can actually see the 1. but why 11
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's nothing in principle wrong with the 2045 bit primes, except, of couyrse, the lying about it.
mircea_popescu: plenty of entropy left as it is.
asciilifeform: ( and why not then 111, 1111.... )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 11 x 11 = 1001 ; 10 x 10 = 0100
mircea_popescu: you need two bits to make 4, not 3. that's it.
mircea_popescu: 111 doesn't add anything, 111 x 111 = 110001 ie 6
asciilifeform: you don't actually get a 10x10=0100 because carry bits ripple up
asciilifeform: (last digit of a product is not a straight product of the last-digit-of-p and last-digit-of-q )
asciilifeform: ( by 'last' here is meant, of course, leftmost )
mircea_popescu: 101111 x 101111 = 100010100001, if you're lucky ; but 100000 x 101111 = 010111100000 which is no good.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we're discussing first digits not last digits here.
asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
asciilifeform: rinse, repeat.
asciilifeform: no reason to lose that 1bit of entropy.
mircea_popescu: you lose it by this impl as well.
mircea_popescu: as you'll reject the primes and end up with the same 2045 bits of entropy
asciilifeform: you lose 1. but in koch's variant you lose 2 .
asciilifeform: ( plus the 2 bottoms )
asciilifeform: 4 all in all
mircea_popescu: ok, you'd conceivably squeeze a little more, but again, see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737360☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:02 mircea_popescu: im not going to have my tech people do backflips to seamlessly bridge imperial idiocy into reality when i could just have the marketing people point out to how the empire lied by making the difference a point of difference.
asciilifeform: at any rate i haven't any argument against http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737376☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's nothing in principle wrong with the 2045 bit primes, except, of couyrse, the lying about it.
mircea_popescu: clarity is more valuable than a nearer asimptote, in many contexts.
asciilifeform: honestly labeled box imho suffices.
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: it's still an unreturned function "what other bits are lost what other places". so this 4090 still an upper bound.
mircea_popescu: but... working on.
asciilifeform: afaik diana_coman exhaustively showed the places
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737245 < ha!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 17:47 ben_vulpes: and in ancients, dusted off mpfhf benchmarker, finished the bit-banging of inputs, fired off a run late last week that is *still hashing*
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quintuplechecking never hurt anything.
asciilifeform: ( she is using my sanitized gpg bignum. but i did not preserve koch's faux-rng atrocity ; so anything pertaining to entropy, is new )
asciilifeform: iirc she is pumping it straight from fg.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: afaik the only remaining, and most obvious 'loss' is the one implicit in prime number theorem ( where , wat, ~10k possible rng outputs correspond to same prime output )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737262 << this is actually a pretty good approach.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:29 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737247 << it looks like a properly structured scheme evaluator, but it's ~explicitly~ lacking a native cons, which might be a very good exercise for whoever™ adding a static allocation space, adding mark-and-sweep, then all those To_Unbounded_String look like they can be simply search/replaced
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik "nextprime" or anything like it is not used
asciilifeform: somewhat counterintuitively, you still get same result ( minus the time sidechannel leak, naturally )
asciilifeform: ( there are still fewer primes than 2^4096bit phase space )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737276 << safe bet natch.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:40 asciilifeform: whole thing reads like straight translation from c
asciilifeform: ( 2048 rather. but you get the idea )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, because see, if you don't use nextprime you lack the "nop bridge" so to speak. rolling number 6 does not take you to 7. to get 7 you need a natural 7, and this is equiprobable to rolling a natural 2^74207281-1 on the space of (0,2^74207281-1).
mircea_popescu: (above quoted, largest prime known, found last year.)
asciilifeform: now i recall having argued this myself, lol
asciilifeform: yea
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: very important NOT to use any kind of nextprime, as it turns out .
asciilifeform somewhat addled with viral fevers, and strange dreams at night ( featuring such colourful characters as tov. ceaușescu )
mircea_popescu: i get odd viral influenzas in the first months of mingling with the whores of a new land also.
asciilifeform: that at least has up-side
mircea_popescu: but supposedly this makes you stronger.
mircea_popescu: https://hackernoon.com/the-bitcoin-gauntlet-e9e721297aca in other materia obscura
asciilifeform: http://its.svensson.org/m.f.d.(file) << in evenmoar obscura
mircea_popescu: !!up hubud
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: o yea which reminds me : http://www.automobileromanesti.ro/images/mari/Altele/malaxa-1.jpg << romanian 1930s limo!
mircea_popescu: allegedly teh soviets were so impressed with it packed the whole assembly line took it to russia in 1945
mircea_popescu: (that site pretty decent ref of romanian vehicle production, incl de teardrop lulzitem)
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737405 << currently working the 4th permutation of a 65536 byte message for a 32 bit hash☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:12 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737245 < ha!
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737304 << was never discussed nor did i ever really grok it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 20:35 diana_coman: I can't seem to find in the logs any discussion re duplex construction/duplexing the sponge i.e. keccak's authors own proposal of using keccak for authenticated encryption; did anyone look into this?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737321 << this is a problem ; but perhaps opening it up to the market may be helpful.\☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 20:57 asciilifeform: the boojum is that neither i nor anybody else knows of any rational way to quantify the compromise.
mircea_popescu: if we had a way to quantify we could just decide.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737334 << nah, autospeaking bots to be kept at a minimum which is 0.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 21:10 asciilifeform: ^ pheeature idea : why not have ticker autofire when the number moves >10% from last tick
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo shaping up.
mircea_popescu: also, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6Fybq/?raw=true
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> (asciilifeform's ticker idea) << nah, autospeaking bots to be kept at a minimum which is 0. << for the curious, why is say deedbot's rss announcer a non-auto event whereas a market movement isn't?
mircea_popescu: history, pretty much.
mircea_popescu: but if you wish to argue it in substance, the fiat valuation of bitcoin is broadly irrelevant -- to bitcoin, to the actrual things the fiat turds misclaim to represent, etcetera. whereas the penmanship of the l1 is relevant by definition.
hanbot: that seems sound.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in doggy dishes, http://78.media.tumblr.com/222bfdf2af4f7c7417e869ba2ca093da/tumblr_n868fqJ7Sm1towumdo1_500.gif
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737435 << keep in mind, this was not a high bar -- ru soldiers took home even toilets from germany☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:44 mircea_popescu: allegedly teh soviets were so impressed with it packed the whole assembly line took it to russia in 1945
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737451 << i see the q of whether a coin buys a rowboat, a battleship, or entire flotilla, as broadly interesting one -- but mebbe that's just me☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 02:07 mircea_popescu: but if you wish to argue it in substance, the fiat valuation of bitcoin is broadly irrelevant -- to bitcoin, to the actrual things the fiat turds misclaim to represent, etcetera. whereas the penmanship of the l1 is relevant by definition.
asciilifeform: ( i could even readily believe that an , e.g., 25x rise in the heathenbux:btc exch rate would make no practical diff to mircea_popescu . but i suspect that i am not the only one here for whom it would make a palpable diff. )
mircea_popescu: 10% dun buy any flotillas.
mircea_popescu: afaic, i still have coins i paid like $2.10 for.
asciilifeform: pretty sure i still have a coin i paid 0 for, lel
asciilifeform: ( it could buy a veeeery small, in a bottle , flotilla... )
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737252 << I do plan to walk-back the logs and pull what still exists. Hard-drive space willing for being able to serve up the things on-demand (only ~40GB to work with on the VPS)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 18:21 asciilifeform: lobbes: does this mean that you can mirror the whole zip collection nao ?
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737253 << time will tell. Depends on how much the logs-to-date worth of archives end up being in drive space. Bandwidth also a factor. Many things left to be sussed out.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 18:32 BingoBoingo: lobbes: So modest is becoming less modest?
BingoBoingo: Sexy or not? http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=856#specification
BingoBoingo: !~later tell mircea_popescu http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/cnUuO/?raw=true
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: It looks like I'm going to be spending 2U on an Ubiquity Edgerouter Pro and an Ebuquity Edgeswitch lite, unless there are other ideas for networking hardware
BingoBoingo: Under the guise of when visiting Shaman, buy cheapest that can move the traffic
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: default firmware is known-boobytrapped
BingoBoingo: AMT bad or...?
asciilifeform: a la microshit.
BingoBoingo: The Ubiquiti or the Biostar
BingoBoingo: !!up hubud
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Hello hubud
hubud: Hi
BingoBoingo: Who is your daddy and what does he do?
hubud: stumbled on trilema blog last week, been reading nearly nonstop since..
hubud: He's a goat farmer
BingoBoingo: Does he love it?
hubud: More or less
BingoBoingo: Poor goats
hubud: He treats them well
BingoBoingo: Ah, love the goats, but indifference to the work of goats
BingoBoingo: So, what's your favorite trilema piece so far?
hubud: Problems of today
hubud: or fabulous hash function
hubud: still groking
BingoBoingo: Just wait till you get to the classics
hubud: Oh yeah, there are some juicy juicy ones
hubud: Hard to find a sane btc community these days
BingoBoingo: One you probably need to read sooner is http://trilema.com/anonimity-or-the-urban-versus-rural-dispute
BingoBoingo: Critical for understanding WOT'tronics
BingoBoingo: !!Up hubud
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Perhaps register a key while you are here? You never know when you will need it.
BingoBoingo: !!help
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html
hubud: Thanks @BoingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: De nada
hubud: !!register pubkey-url http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/kawMG/?raw=true
deedbot: Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
hubud: !!register pubkey-url http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/leKLW/?raw=true
deedbot: Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
hubud: doesn't like my key
hubud: !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/kawMG/?raw=true
deedbot: 2663CCEE8A986D69753970E5453FED117075F0A8 registered as hubud.
davout: in other pedos http://archive.is/sTUZU#selection-7611.2-7611.137
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737414 <- confirmed; I do NOT use any nextprime or other "rng"-parts from gpg; current rsatron prototype simply grabs nbits from fg, flips the 2 top bits and 1 bottom bit as per previous discussion and then checks if result is prime; if prime then keep, otherwise discard and try again; no "add 2 until prime" or other such thing☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik "nextprime" or anything like it is not used
diana_coman: and by "flips" I mean sets them to 1
apeloyee: fwiw I just realized that this ^ leaks a little via the modulus
apeloyee: if the modulus is M, then p,q>M/2^2048 (because p,q<2^2048)
apeloyee: if "no leaks on principle", this needs to be dealt with
apeloyee: can't see how to plug it completely though
apeloyee: if M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047, then ~20 first bits of p and q are known
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1734517 << not quite. for encryption, if I get your modulus, and you actually want to read my messages, I can generate a public exponent between M/2 and (say) 3M/4, and attach it to the message in plaintext.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-08 22:03 asciilifeform: not knowing the e has exactly same effect as not knowing half of the n.
apeloyee: assuming M is a modulus of a useful RSA key, this will work
apeloyee: (i.e. M is not prime, and not single-digit)
apeloyee: *p and q not signle digit
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737268 <-- this. ftr, current adalisp prototype (not-yet-published and thus yet-vapourware!) represents "pointers" as indices in a statically-allocated array.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:36 asciilifeform: and get rid of the pointers.
apeloyee: grrr. "M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047" << 2^4065, of course
diana_coman: apeloyee, if I understand that correctly basically the only way to plug that leak would be to give up on diddling p and q, including setting size; which would mean just get random pairs of primes until their product fits the desired number of bits for the key; obv this lands into the trouble of having one of them too small
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737264 <-- strings are (lisp) lists-of-characters. which, as it is, unfortunately makes parsing and evaluating builtin functions (e.g. cons, car, cdr) a pain in the ass. can be structured cleanly though. also, this makes it not a simple matter of find+replace in shithub scheme.adb.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:35 asciilifeform: phf: ideally i'd get rid of Ada.Strings , full stop
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737266 <-- I did not contemplate bytecode representation, but this would indeed make matters simpler (including above problem of dealing with strings).☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:36 asciilifeform: and rewrite the parser per se in scheme ( have it be present as commented bytecode constant )
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737294 <-- not sure if possible with ffatronic ada subset, though, because of "no dynamic objects" restriction. in my (yet-unpublished) prototype, lisp memory size is a static knob.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:47 asciilifeform: and not 'as much as you want' but up to B bytes, with B given on commandline and stackframed on warmup.
spyked: current lispm ads: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8ROcg/?raw=true if teh real-life gods decide to leave my ass alone, I might publish the whole thing over the weekend.
apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense.
diana_coman: apeloyee, my first thought went that way but then on one hand this just makes the interval larger basically and on the other hand I have no idea how to even evaluate the compromise (i.e. how large interval is large enough anyway, leaving aside that the how big is big enough for p and q is not that terribly clear either -at least not to me); in other words I can see it as an improvement but I can't actually evaluate it clearly
diana_coman: that being said, I can't quite see it being any *worse* than this affair with fixed size AND fixed top bits
apeloyee: same here.
mircea_popescu: !!withdraw 0.207429 165QE3hRB3x5781eQoxFjN1pdZndyzZJmv
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/leYDe/?raw=true
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737520 << what keeps a million enemies from offering false pubexps in false conversations, preventing us from agreeing on a genuine one ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:09 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1734517 << not quite. for encryption, if I get your modulus, and you actually want to read my messages, I can generate a public exponent between M/2 and (say) 3M/4, and attach it to the message in plaintext.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no communication among unknown parties. someone somewhere gives you a key.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
asciilifeform: i was answering apeloyee's odd 'but i can give you my pubexp later, over unauthenticated plaintext, anywhere' oddity.
mircea_popescu: a. yeah.
asciilifeform: i.e. until we have one another's mods ~and~ pubexps! we're not really rsaparties. with all that flows from this.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737528 <<< >>> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:25 diana_coman: apeloyee, if I understand that correctly basically the only way to plug that leak would be to give up on diddling p and q, including setting size; which would mean just get random pairs of primes until their product fits the desired number of bits for the key; obv this lands into the trouble of having one of them too small
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737465 << i'd expect a few thousand items at 15kb each or so, so maybe 100mb total ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 03:58 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737253 << time will tell. Depends on how much the logs-to-date worth of archives end up being in drive space. Bandwidth also a factor. Many things left to be sussed out.
asciilifeform: imho ^ is The Right Thing, at least for folx who aren't generating keys in a burning hurry
mircea_popescu: kinda curious how this bet works out irl.
asciilifeform: and diana_coman , there is no 'trouble if one is too small', you throw out ~both~ if the test fails
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737481 << lol. don't forget to come out for air, trilema is larger than what can be braved in one go. you'll break yourself.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 06:15 hubud: stumbled on trilema blog last week, been reading nearly nonstop since..
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I meant in the final pair; i.e. you get p=3 and q=2^4095+1 sort of thing; ofc throw both in a pair if product not right size; but if not enforcing any size condition at all on p and q then you can end up with any small prime too
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737525 << this is therightthing. but note that not only is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737533 not a problem, but the behaviour is fundamental to ffa. in ada a structure is considered nondynamic if its size doesn't change at run time. not if 'magic number' size, like in overflowlang.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:22 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737268 <-- this. ftr, current adalisp prototype (not-yet-published and thus yet-vapourware!) represents "pointers" as indices in a statically-allocated array.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:29 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737294 <-- not sure if possible with ffatronic ada subset, though, because of "no dynamic objects" restriction. in my (yet-unpublished) prototype, lisp memory size is a static knob.
asciilifeform: spyked: i use generic, which (quite unlike in cpp) results in a fully static structure that is created at runtime
asciilifeform: diana_coman: calculate the probability of fatally small p or q.
asciilifeform: in an honest rng
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737511 << amply discussed here, "pedos the next gay-like oppressed community".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 10:05 davout: in other pedos http://archive.is/sTUZU#selection-7611.2-7611.137
diana_coman: asciilifeform, for starters I don't know what is "large enough" aka "not fatally small" p or q
asciilifeform: understand, setting the top bit won't help you, i can just as easily say 'but what if the middle 2000 bits in my prime end up zeros!'
mircea_popescu: fortunately for everyone, the state of the needy is croaking before managing to complete its self-defined mission.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737516 << this is no leak ; it is a restatement of "first two bits set to 11, so you only use 2045 bit keys"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:02 apeloyee: if the modulus is M, then p,q>M/2^2048 (because p,q<2^2048)
davout: mircea_popescu: i remembered mostly the "pedos as afraid of women who'll identify them as beta cux"
mircea_popescu: yes, you can expect that your modulus will lead 10 more often than 11. but this is in the book already.
mircea_popescu: davout ima deal with this prime thing then fish out the convos if you'd like.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: generally speaking, anything one could conceivably walk over, is unsafe - i.e. primes smaller than the number of femtoseconds in a millenium, if i had to give a heuristic
davout: prime things first
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737519 << let's keep this binary. are you saying that if the first 2 octets of N are 1 therefore the first 2 octets of BOTH p and q must also be 1 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:05 apeloyee: if M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047, then ~20 first bits of p and q are known
asciilifeform: the other thing, diana_coman , is that if enemy knows that you will never use a p or q below limit l -- he can start bruting from l
asciilifeform: so pegging primes min size does 0.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, myeah, hence my "what does it even do for me simply making this interval larger"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: octets??
mircea_popescu: bytes
mircea_popescu: i have a serious issue with bit/byte confusion trying to get myself out of it somehow.
mircea_popescu: ftr, octet is the fucking right word for 8 bits. a byte should be 64 bits these days.
mircea_popescu: literally, what the machine bytes.
asciilifeform: let's settle another matter -- which bit is 'first'
mircea_popescu: left to right. most significant bit first.
asciilifeform: aite
mircea_popescu: mathematical ordering.
asciilifeform often says 'eldest' , as in ru
mircea_popescu: works.
diana_coman found herself using "octet" in code because of going nuts with bytes/bits otherwise
mircea_popescu: anyway, the same problem exists in the tail : if N is 000000001 at the end, i know BOTH p and q were 11111111 last 8 bit
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ikr!
asciilifeform: problem only properly exists in the tail ('youngest') bit, where carry is 0
mircea_popescu: also exists in head.
mircea_popescu: the only way to have an N = 11111111.... is if both q and p are 1111111......
asciilifeform: observe, you cannot say anything re p,q from he middle bits of pq (or rsa would be useless)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. carry exists.
asciilifeform: srsly try it
mircea_popescu: 11111111×11111111 = 1111111000000001
mircea_popescu: sometimes i suspect you never do binary calculation at all asciilifeform
asciilifeform: where's the ... in there
asciilifeform: this is sloppy thinking
mircea_popescu: 11111111.....×11111111.... = 1111111.....
mircea_popescu: 1111111100000000×1111111100000000 = 11111110000000010000000000000000 if you much prefer.
asciilifeform: ok i misread a leading ...
asciilifeform: otherwise yes
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's entirely no way out of this. for purely mathematical reasons.
mircea_popescu: however you "cut" the problem out, the surface of the cut becomes the problem
mircea_popescu: and it will be larger than this surface.
mircea_popescu: of course, the odds of getting a FF FF q and a FF FF p are 1/2^32
mircea_popescu: which is to say, small.
asciilifeform doesn't expect to see a pill against this, other than he already obvious engineering margin of using respectable number of bits of entropy for whole thing
asciilifeform: *the already
mircea_popescu: kinda why we have 2045 "even if less would be enough"
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: there ~are~ extension attacks, but those typically require more than a dozen bits known.
mircea_popescu: (on proper rng. on bs prng / kochgpg etc, they don't.)
mircea_popescu: kinda why faux rng calibration is done on 1blocks in the first place.
mircea_popescu: "all you need to know is where the signature 1blocks come in the "rng", as they will be preserved by binary mult, can be seen in modulus."
asciilifeform: iirc most recent black magic gives you polynomialtime breakage if >=.22b of bitness b of p or q bits are known
asciilifeform: ( bottom or top consec. bits )
mircea_popescu: afaik "shadow brokers" didn't release this principal rsa exploitation tool of "teh equation group", but : imagine you have a machine a) working on your own special-purpose made prng ; and b) generating rsa keys all the time and on call.
mircea_popescu: you now look for the signature blocks of a in b, and have the whole show.
asciilifeform: generally there are cheaper ways to make use of 'key' to chump rng
mircea_popescu: hey, money is no object empire.
mircea_popescu: moreover, VERY GOOD (for some purposes) prngs are eminently sign-block-ing.
mircea_popescu: nobody cares for as long as they're used for what they're intended to be used, such as reproducible scientific simulation.
asciilifeform: the archetypical example is 'digits of pi'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, pi is not periodic.
asciilifeform: dun need periodicity for rng diddle, necessarily
mircea_popescu: in the scheme discussed above, periodicity is specifically the point.
asciilifeform: or mircea_popescu was thinking of the particular one illustrated earlier
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: reminds me, not long before the beginning of the time of dulap troubles, and the isp winter, asciilifeform was experimenting with statistical tests of the ~moduli~ a la dieharder
asciilifeform: looking for any kind of outliers by any conceivable measure
asciilifeform: within a given bitness category
asciilifeform: but this is a thread for another time.
mircea_popescu: the problem here is structure, you have to have the "emitter" pretty well identified to make useful pattern measurements.
mircea_popescu: this, amusingly, is an exact rehash of your antenna detection discussion
mircea_popescu: (as it's exactly what it is)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737536 << this was part of the original speccing of "unequal length p, q" etc. that line of thought withered and died, see the whole thing in the log it's worth the read.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:33 apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense.
mircea_popescu: though /me is consoled to see bright minds have the same intuitive inclination.
asciilifeform: i'ma half a mind to build that antenna , btw, and see how long before confiscated
asciilifeform: betcha it could live for years.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737538 << it's worse in that the per-unit-effort benefit it delivers is smaller than the benefit we would accrue by simply keeping the current system and increasing the bitsize.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:46 diana_coman: that being said, I can't quite see it being any *worse* than this affair with fixed size AND fixed top bits
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very likely. you're a person of interest, what, who\s gonna confiscate your shit.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: the fundamental imperial problem (see eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-04#1732837 ) is that good imperial can never act for fear waiting may pay more.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-04 14:22 mircea_popescu: consider the following point : the recent las vegas shooter had bought a room ; and had ferried a quarter ton of materiel up there ; and then the concert started, and he sat.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is that
asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd.
mircea_popescu: this is the problem with "complexify the code machine" tendency. somehow it appears intuitively evident that having a portion of the code INSIDE the machine is "a more complex, therefore a more secure system". it is not. 100% of the key belongs in the key.
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental, and perhaps only result to date of cryptology.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform give it a decade.
mircea_popescu: :D!
mircea_popescu: (there's a reason imperials have that problem -- it's called "technological progress".)
asciilifeform: it's mostly manual work, mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: so cost dun move much
asciilifeform: the microscope per se is 1940s tech.
mircea_popescu: oh, you mean like warehouse management ?
mircea_popescu: or like driving ?
mircea_popescu: OR PLAYING GO ?
asciilifeform: no, like appendectomy.
mircea_popescu: dun dun DUN!
mircea_popescu: it will sadden you to find surgery is highly roboticized, in the sense of ~60% of surgeon man-hours put in by 1967 surgeons are now done by machine.
asciilifeform: it's a surgery, d00d strips carefully the layers , takes pics
asciilifeform: aha and the 40 remaining % gets to charge same or moar
mircea_popescu: same or moar in today's dollah.
asciilifeform: because the talent pool aint any bigger
mircea_popescu: which evidently can't buy any flotillas.
asciilifeform: separate item neh
mircea_popescu: (if it could -- usg would have some)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so separate. wait a decade, bitcoin appreciates.
asciilifeform: i can't picture it appreciating to the point where i can spare 30k worth of it
mircea_popescu: poor people can't picture how richdom goes!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 << this is alternatively a perfectly acceptable approach ; expensive as all fuck though. prolly should be the standard for homemade keys.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
asciilifeform: re 30k, it's moar than enuff for own motherfucking microscope
asciilifeform: supposing i had where to keep one, and weren't gearing up for escape
asciilifeform: ( a preowned SEM is mebbe 10k )
asciilifeform: sorta lulzy to learn that a day of bulldozering costs moar than a used bulldozer.
mircea_popescu: davout re pedo discussion : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677971 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-07#1652534 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-03#1651425 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-21#1616334 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-30#1116819 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1043675 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032677 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032676 ; as well as period lulz such as http://btcbase.org☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 23:00 mircea_popescu: much saner to put all gays in jail because "they offend baby jezuz" than to put all pedos in jail because "they harm little kids"
a111: Logged on 2017-05-07 05:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i'm preparing popcorn for when they finally unearth the pedophilia issue. so far swimming in the brackish water of imaginary problems that are only problems ot the problemizers.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-03 19:26 mircea_popescu: Framedragger "have you tried not wanting to fuck guys???" whadda ya know, next they'll "cure" pedos. because they're so totally unlike gays and everything.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-21 22:18 mircea_popescu: hence all the discussions re "fags got their weddings, pedos are next".
a111: Logged on 2015-04-30 15:40 mircea_popescu: incidentally, the original (mostly politically driven) explanation for violence against homosexuals - some sort of "homophobia" suffers a lot seeing how ALL SORTS of other sexual behaviours elicit the same violent response. such as transsexualism, or pedophilia.
a111: Logged on 2015-03-06 01:01 mircea_popescu: the very notion that the us has any sort of purpose, not even conscious or expressible, but any sort whatsoever is ridiculous on its face. it has all the purpose of a shambling headless zombie. which is why they're stuck trying to invent nonsense, "women and gayz! anti pedo!!" etc.
a111: Logged on 2015-02-24 21:00 mircea_popescu: who cares that pedo today ==== faggot 1965.
a111: Logged on 2015-02-24 21:00 mircea_popescu: the gays got their way with marriage prior to the freeze, but that's it. pedos aren't getting theirs.
mircea_popescu: /log/2014-05-10#669753
mircea_popescu: there's prolly some stuff on trilema too but too lazy to dig moar. shoulds suffice i guess.
asciilifeform: last link got cut
mircea_popescu: oh i thought that couldn't happen!
asciilifeform: lel
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-05-10#669753☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-05-10 20:40 mircea_popescu: fluffypony that's right, this is the channel of the minority of people into bitcoin that aren't also pedos.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737600 << oh, i see now what you were talking about. right5 you are, yes, i was focused on the edges not the middle.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:33 asciilifeform: observe, you cannot say anything re p,q from he middle bits of pq (or rsa would be useless)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737624 << afaik, ~continuous~, which is a significantly higher bar☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:40 asciilifeform: iirc most recent black magic gives you polynomialtime breakage if >=.22b of bitness b of p or q bits are known
mircea_popescu: (ordered but not continuous a lesser bar ; known-positions higher but still lesser ; continuous block, unknown position ; etc)
asciilifeform: gotta be continuous, or i could 'mahaha, i know mircea_popescu's q has 1024 ones!'
mircea_popescu: hey.
mircea_popescu: thats a knowledge, "exactly 1024 ones"
asciilifeform: within 1sd or so lel
mircea_popescu: let teh enemy fight with the army it has!
asciilifeform: 1024 is ten bits of info, readily brutable
asciilifeform: so sheer weight of 1s can't be much use
asciilifeform: if rsa is strong
mircea_popescu: how useful something is is of no consequence in the classification of things. it still gets a label.
asciilifeform: anyway original observation was re upper and lower cont. strings
mircea_popescu: also, polynomial time isn't THAT great. depends a little on the polynomial involved :D
asciilifeform: afaik no published work re known middles
asciilifeform: sure.
asciilifeform: ( recall the primalitytest thread )
mircea_popescu: the meet in the middle etc thing i saw was far from instantaneous. maybe better technologies do exist, but anwyay
mircea_popescu: "doable", yes, but nobody's writing a php script of this to put on his site.
mircea_popescu: (then again this dun say much -- phuctor, "undoable" until it was done, according to the idle wankers / "academics" publishing around it pretending to not know where they got their dataz.)
deedbot: mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/hiFyl/?raw=true
asciilifeform: veritable feast for the vultures, it's been lately
asciilifeform: i stopped keeping track in real time.
asciilifeform: czechs, germans, etc boecks.
asciilifeform: depressing reading. 'suddenly dud rsa keys, hip!'
mircea_popescu: whole "civilisation" of folk hoping to pass off some tech with serials shaved off.
mircea_popescu: the necessary corelate of "no kid left behind" and "creativity!!11", after all. where's all the world's mediocrities to come up with shit ?
asciilifeform: there was a '90s american film where there is a scene, where an airplane lands in africa and in fast motion gets stripped for parts, like elephant carcass by hyenas
mircea_popescu: copy/paste wikipedia exams are a matter of necessity if you're going to bother all shepherds and whatnot daylabourers to join your "college"
asciilifeform: but there at least they dun pretend to have created the airplane.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's been films of elephant etc same.
mircea_popescu: of course they do! the saving grace is that you don't speak orc, to see the pretense.
mircea_popescu: petrus pretends to have created england ; so do romanians at that
asciilifeform: i thought in ro cosmography england was an uninteresting backwater. or is that only mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: are you aware there's a substantial ro mystico-scientism putting the etruscans as romanian derivative ? and no, it's not "ceausescu madness", ro sufragette cca 1920, exact equiv of that russian fat old woman.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 100% mp.
asciilifeform: i'm not esp surprised re etruscans item
asciilifeform: considering the venerable ancient ukrs.
asciilifeform: ( re ro crackpottery, asciilifeform is 2/3 through pacepa's tome , and marvels over the d00d's complete omission of how ~he himself~ came to be loyal servant of 'worst ever cruellest evil emperor' )
asciilifeform: or take the 'it was really the demented witch' narrative. invites the q, why did nobody have for her any poison ? really, none of the flunkies ?
mircea_popescu: imagine, he was a general. before that, colonel. earlier still, major. prior to that, lt.
mircea_popescu: and so on.
asciilifeform: aha, and somehow reader is expected to believe that d00d 'always hated communism' etc
mircea_popescu: motherfucker, the coffee in this country. HOW do they do it.
asciilifeform: ( this is universal crack in 'dissident runaway' autobios )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, ion iliescu went through similar period. "dissident" etc. except for the pics where he's playing retarded games with ceausescu & co.
asciilifeform: ah lol the ro eltsin
mircea_popescu: ye
mircea_popescu: and you know, pacepa was no less than ro resident in rfg. he fucking led the east presence there for at least most of 64.
mircea_popescu: then he got promoted in 66 (ceausescu came to teh secretariatship in 65).
asciilifeform: it wouldn't surprise asciilifeform to learn that d00d lives not far .
mircea_popescu: afaik he does.
mircea_popescu: maryland something.
asciilifeform: i'd expect he dun take the trains tho.
asciilifeform: ( in his place i wouldn't )
mircea_popescu: i dunno... at some point in the 80s the whole eastern front (arafat, gaddafi, ceausescu) had multi-mn bounties on his head. if he survived that...
mircea_popescu: market value of 88yo is ~0 anyway.
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/ is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet)
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz : usg focused on infiltrating and corrupting ro justice system first ; as a result in 1999 they came up with a "rehabilitation" supreme court decision. ro govt refused to recognize it, which resulted in a lot of usg agitprop material as to how "romania not yet rule of law".
mircea_popescu: kinda the blue state blueprint, in general. first subvert justice system then lie about rule of law then so following.
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, one of the dudes that somehow "failed to identify" pacepa went on to kill a coupla french spies in sudan)
BingoBoingo: Question: What is a bank reference letter?
mircea_popescu: (to ruin many "westerners" hopes and delusions of self relevancy : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737754 means that no, paris '68 is NOT necessarily more than the original later copied by obama-socialism under heading of "orange revolutions". "oh, you mean pacepa's paris v2.0 ? I SEE!.")☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:54 mircea_popescu: and you know, pacepa was no less than ro resident in rfg. he fucking led the east presence there for at least most of 64.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737763 << this is unashamedly printed on the jacket of the present-day edition, even☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:58 mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/ is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet)
asciilifeform: ( at least the american one )
asciilifeform: re the shoemaker, asciilifeform still can't fully shake the traditional ru version , where man was plugged for paying off his national debt, rather than 'the beoble Finally Had Enuff!' usgolade nonsense.
mats: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-14/venezuela-s-bondholder-meeting-is-a-bust-as-s-p-declares-default
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737762 << the nazi-hunters, it would seem , disagreed with this. 100 y.o. d00d could still, hypothetically, know where he buried the gold etc☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:57 mircea_popescu: market value of 88yo is ~0 anyway.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo generally the lowest rank of the letters of credit. the bank makes a non binding judgement as to customer;s ability to meet a specirfied financial obligation.
mircea_popescu: this is spurious in your case, tell them you'll pay cash upfront.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the people true and squarely had enough. this is the fundamental problem with being saddled with a people in the first place -- what they want isn't ever what';s needed.
asciilifeform: thebeoble have always 'had enuff'
asciilifeform: but e.g. obummer still alive.
asciilifeform: and gorby.
mircea_popescu: "the people have had enough with not being able to buy consumer goods ; and if they were able to buy consumer goods they'd have wanted to "form oppinions" in the manner of ustards, and in the vein of "school exams too hard ; work too long hours ; idealised self not actualised by regime ; let other people take our industry, we'll do service "industry" ; want to live today on money we might make tomorrow IF and only if we don't
mircea_popescu: get it today"
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty, I'll tell this lawyer being auditioned. I'll also ask him if he can do BROU instead of fucking Santander.
mircea_popescu: and in that vein, once one starts one doesn't end until california reconstructed.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lmao wtf is a lawyer herping about such nonsense.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I asked him for the "how do we get a corporation fast" answer. His answer is off the shelf. This isn't the first time I've heard "bank reference" being bandied aboutwith respect to opening a corporate account.
mircea_popescu shrugs.
BingoBoingo continues asking
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: re: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737472 which of the three items were you discussing when you mentioned "boobytrapped", any suggested remedies or alternatives?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 05:01 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: default firmware is known-boobytrapped
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun have anything against the 'octeon' per se ironwise. just be sure to build own os for it.
asciilifeform: ( it's a straightforward bsd target, for instance )
asciilifeform: for only slightly higher cost you get those amd g-series boxen ( e.g. 'pcengines' )
asciilifeform: approx same physical dimensions
BingoBoingo: Ah
asciilifeform: what are you making, BingoBoingo , the exit router ?
BingoBoingo: Well, this router is the beefier Octeon box.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Thing to manage routes
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason to insist that the ~router~ have >2 jacks
asciilifeform: multiplying jacks is what the switch is for
BingoBoingo: Room to grow by trunking lines
BingoBoingo: Also room to cross connect in the future.
asciilifeform: if you have 2, each can be turned into as many as you want, with ordinary iron switches.
asciilifeform: sorta why ethernet is a net, not a point-to-point port
asciilifeform: ( really a bus )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, it's not simply " paying off his national debt". it's like this : dood went deeply into debt post nixon visit, on the strength of us jewish promises (ie, tech transfer) and to the degree of their own established "deep enough to have no way out". they obviously did not deliver, but then he DID dig himself out, paid whole debt in little over decade. ie, not only that he paid it, but that he paid it "imposs
mircea_popescu: ibly" ie "does not understand how jew-worldview works!"
asciilifeform: aha!
asciilifeform: so 'had problems'. with the murder weapon being 'uprising'
mircea_popescu: and then in SPITE of "tech control", romania was building its own computers. not good, no. yet. but it's own machine gun factory WAS better than us anything, after a 20-30 years of "not good, no".
asciilifeform: even pacepa's b00k describes a ~working~ pilfered vlsi lab
mircea_popescu: and then in spite of "political control" ie "containment policy" romania operated it's OWN gulf concessions with its own machinery and shipped the oil on its own boats made in its own factories.
mircea_popescu: fuck you empire of a complete size.
asciilifeform: i.e. for all i know shoemaker & co were about to start making ivories
mircea_popescu: but, no, ceausescu didn't get overthrown because "the people". who the fuck seriously thinks "the people" even matter, jesus.
mircea_popescu: the problem is he had no successor.
asciilifeform: same problem as stalin
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly by 1995 yes.
mircea_popescu: re ivories.
asciilifeform: complete with prodigal son etc
mircea_popescu: quite, yes.
asciilifeform: ( nicu is exactly vasiliy )
mircea_popescu: anyway, if he HAD a continuator, like the chinese managed to continue xiaoping, i have little doubt i'd be all for the regime, decked in the usual "youngest general in the signals" regalia and we'd be holding this convo across the berlin wall.
asciilifeform: hey i'm all for the regime right nao!111
asciilifeform: the hat man's, that is
mircea_popescu: meh. it'd have had to be reformed. half of it made no sense.
asciilifeform nao even has that selfsame hat. walks in to visit family, they immediately : 'brezhnev!'
mircea_popescu: socialist-nationalism still socialism. make it capitalist nationalism we're in business. specifically - the portuguese business, rape everyone
asciilifeform: good half of just about anything, dug up by archaeologists, similarly makesnosense
mircea_popescu: i was there, dun need archeologists.
mircea_popescu: this is a major diff.
asciilifeform: well similarly asciilifeform was there for gorby
asciilifeform: ( though did not live as long as mircea_popescu )
mircea_popescu: this is not similar, i was there for ceausescu not for iliescu lol
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's elder brother did however witness 'golden age' .
mircea_popescu: so then, elder brother saying "half of it made no sense" very != archeologist saying "i don't understand how half of this shit even worked"
asciilifeform: and never quite stopped rubbing it in . 'hey that loaf of bread you ate in timis ? we had these, and cost 3 kopeiki' etc
asciilifeform: yea
mircea_popescu: i understand how it worked ; it however made no sense. diff point.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he had a point, at that. 20 to the ruble im sure.
asciilifeform: i regret to report that even after 25yr of usaschwitz it still makesnosense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in every case he had a point.
mircea_popescu: of particular interest to you might be causescu's self-concept, especially items such as "a critica" (to critique). i dunno how many of his own words you've read, but the man had a very interesting (on the grounds of its incredible low level form that maintained reasonable function) husserl approach to post-hegelian dialectics.
asciilifeform: got reading recs for subj ?
mircea_popescu: this, in a fellow entirely unsuspectable of having ever HEARD of husserl, let alone read anything in german, is a feat somewhat comparable to the 256 byte 99% lisp interpreter.
asciilifeform: i'd enjoy eating. once i get past '5th grade' level of rotaku.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform marginally sufficient material (to show it, if not to discover it necessarily) actually on trilema.
asciilifeform: but where
mircea_popescu: nah, his romanian was that of a retard, 5th grade just about. very evidently SIMPLE alphabet.
mircea_popescu: lessee.
asciilifeform: 'я русский бы выучил. только за то,. что им. разговаривал Ленин' (tm)(r)(mayakovsky)
asciilifeform: (src, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/N2TRJ/?raw=true )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: d00d did know ru tho. so could have, in theory, read the german thinkers, neh
mircea_popescu: neh.
mircea_popescu: dood had trouble reading newspaper.
mircea_popescu: entirely oral thinker.
mircea_popescu: dood also had serious emotivity probloems -- extremely shy, etcetera. epicycle is perhaps that encounter with the czechoslovak "labour people" when they ask him a (simple, let's be friends) question (context is that he's the hero, against soviet invasion, etc) and he totally can't answer.
mircea_popescu: you seen that ?
asciilifeform: yea visible from the surviving material readily
asciilifeform: ( or even consider the famous last balcony scene )
mircea_popescu: in THAT context some confusion is expected.
mircea_popescu: but to be unable to say who you're thanking at oscar ceremony... kinda blonde moment. you KNEW they were gonna ask.
asciilifeform: troo.
asciilifeform: that's a 'did he do his homework' moment.
mircea_popescu: except he didn't comprehend there's a homework to do.
mircea_popescu: and to most mediocre people, gave this impression of utter idiocy, because regularily contradicted their "reasonable expectations". except didn't have the mp refinement of making it painful for them later.
mircea_popescu: so the notion endured, "oh, mp doesn't understand maffs".
asciilifeform: dunno, supposedly he did make it somewhat painful for some of'em later
mircea_popescu: it's true, he doesn't. NEITHER DO YOU. without that latter part...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nope. the problem with the mediocre pretending to "intellectuals" is they've agreed to only hurt physcologically.
asciilifeform: i was thinking of the 'i hereby order mr.pantsuit caught and fed some radium' instances.
mircea_popescu: yes, but those "don't count"
mircea_popescu: it has to be "mrs pantsuit, where's your having won the presidency nao ?" at the lowest.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> entirely oral thinker. << Ah, hung out with too many Frenchies did he
mircea_popescu: ideally, it's a "hey, check out how your stupidity #1 contradicts your stupidity #2, what do you have to say for your stupidity that isn't throwing a hissy fit ?"
asciilifeform: mebbe this shows that asciilifeform is same sort of peasant as the shoemaker, but finding it hard to see why not counts. having pantsuit hoisted on a public stake would even moar count imho
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hung with ~nobody. didn't even fuck around, married a 25yo whore 9-year whore, stuck to her 50 years.
asciilifeform: why does it have to be a paper humiliation.
asciilifeform: what's wrong with meat humiliation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cuz that's what the mediocre intellect has decided upon.
asciilifeform: maybe ants also have complicated requirements for how to humiliate. but ! ddt still worx!
mircea_popescu: not according to the ant.
mircea_popescu: see, this is the problem : selection and education are different.
mircea_popescu: yes i select my whores. but once i selected what may be promises, i humiliate her, i don't fucking kill her.
mircea_popescu: humiliation is definitionally "in the terms of the idiot"
asciilifeform: this makes sense
mircea_popescu: may be promising*
mircea_popescu: dude it's incredible how fucking useless the internet is.
asciilifeform: ikr ?
asciilifeform: i found last yr, somewhat surprisingly, that the works of stalin are not sitting in plain txt anywhere
mircea_popescu: you know ?
mircea_popescu: i read piles of ceausescu transcripts, they're all exactly nowhere. 1968 meeting with the writer's union ? really, NOT EVEN THAT ? 1965 may 19th "who wants a seat in helicopter" one ? nope ?
mircea_popescu: it's like... dude forget it, 0%.
asciilifeform: when asciilifeform wanted to read lysenko in the original , he had to visit the rarest-rarities reading room in american national lib of medicine
asciilifeform: nowhere else, was subj preserved ( outside of possibly similar archive in moscow, possibly )
mircea_popescu: nuts.
asciilifeform: but hey you can download winblowz 10 at 25MB/sec !11111
asciilifeform: and lolcatz
mircea_popescu: im totally finding this, motherfucker, im sure i saved copies on trilema somehwere PRECISELY for this conversation
BingoBoingo: !!Up hubud
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2013/what-is-art/#comment-96132 << ceausescu on art.
mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EQGx2/?raw=true << full item
asciilifeform: oh neato
mircea_popescu: after a stenograph of 1971 (aug 4) meeting at Mangalia (Neptun).
mircea_popescu: the 1965 and 1968 items absent, but pars pro toto this shall have to do.
mircea_popescu: dude has the audacity to ask for "a ballet on the topic of having finished the kolohoz-isation". you know ? at least asks the right fucking questions, even if nobody in audience has the mettle to make answer.
mircea_popescu: and he has the numbers : right here, where we happen to be, i ~know the name of the local lord~, and his numbers : 600 to 2209, he says. and what is teh retort ?
mircea_popescu: "oh the numbers are wrong". yeah, im sure they are. and the tractors invented, and the working the fields with oxen and horses and wives pre 1940 calumny, perhaps. hurr.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737789 <<< needed the same when opening a bank account in .mu, reference letter didn't need any particular judgement about whether i'd be able to meet a financial committment, but just something along the lines of "had bizns with this gentleman for X years, didn't leave with unpaid debts, isn't a fucking gypsy"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 16:54 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I asked him for the "how do we get a corporation fast" answer. His answer is off the shelf. This isn't the first time I've heard "bank reference" being bandied aboutwith respect to opening a corporate account.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737688 <<< ty, will read☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:09 mircea_popescu: davout re pedo discussion : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677971 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-07#1652534 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-03#1651425 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-21#1616334 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-30#1116819 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1043675 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032677 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032676 ; as well as period lulz such as http://btcbase.org
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737733 <<< "lord of war" iirc☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:30 asciilifeform: there was a '90s american film where there is a scene, where an airplane lands in africa and in fast motion gets stripped for parts, like elephant carcass by hyenas
BingoBoingo: In other news, apparently Tower 4 of the world trade center is not actually inside the world trade center free zone.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737917 < o right! not a bad film, at that.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 18:00 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737733 <<< "lord of war" iirc
mircea_popescu: mmm 2005. no, there was some 1970s item
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737529 << that doesn't sound right, read and eval are distinct phases, by the time you get to eval you shouldn't be operating with strings when but instead with interned symbols (i.e. things that can be eq'd in lisp and pointer equivalent on c machine level)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:25 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737264 <-- strings are (lisp) lists-of-characters. which, as it is, unfortunately makes parsing and evaluating builtin functions (e.g. cons, car, cdr) a pain in the ass. can be structured cleanly though. also, this makes it not a simple matter of find+replace in shithub scheme.adb.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/il-merlo-maschio/ << Trilema - Il merlo maschio
phf: for example your Symbol_EqualP should just be a pointer comparison, rather than string comparison. (the whole point of a ~symbol~ over a string is that it's interned, i.e. same sequence of characters always map to the identical Symbol object)
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737542 << that's just DoS. but, if you have computational capacity, you check the padding. may also require that it's signed with my key, with the pubexp attached if you don't know it. Thus, the modulus is in principle sufficient to _initiate_ the converstaion☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737520 << what keeps a million enemies from offering false pubexps in false conversations, preventing us from agreeing on a genuine one ?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: by same argument, '1 bit of the modulus is sufficient to init conversation, after it we'll agree on next bit' etc
apeloyee: I don't see how you can extend to this case
asciilifeform: in either case, in practice enemy can drown you
apeloyee: well, that means the enemy can drown you even if we kave pub.exps, by simply flooding
apeloyee: *have
apeloyee: with random garbage
asciilifeform: not if i have '9000' entry points to my gossip net, each of which rejects malformed rsa packets in O(1) at line speed
apeloyee: u can use these to verify that purported pub-exp is validly signed
asciilifeform: right, but to do it, you first have to receive proposed exp 'on faith' at that endpoint
asciilifeform: the amount of computation that you must do, and bits you must buffer, to do friend-or-foe, is considerably larger.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee signature also relies on knowing your exp
apeloyee: can attach your pubexp in plaintext, to the signature
mircea_popescu: but a signature signed by a pubexp i didn't have PRIOR to the receiving of the signature is definitionally worthless.
mircea_popescu: as it communicates nothing above "3+3 = 6"
apeloyee: I thought you said modulus _is_ the identity, and here I presume the modulus is known
mircea_popescu: dang i said pubexp i meant pubkey.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apeloyee was extending the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1734664 argument, as i understand☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-08 23:10 asciilifeform: returning to the exponent thing, seems that mircea_popescu is right, nothing particularly interesting can be done by distributing a pub with e' . ( other than 'believe me , his e is 3' and then messages ~to that pub~ are breakable if padding is broken. but that' sit . )
asciilifeform: that modulus -- suffices for identity
mircea_popescu: so your model is, i have your pubkey, and encounter an item signed by that N, with a specific e that's included in the signed text ?
apeloyee: yes
apeloyee: of course, must check that e/=1
mircea_popescu: aha. yes, this is exactly what we do not
mircea_popescu: now*
asciilifeform: this in fact worx. but makes for heavy sigs.
mircea_popescu: except we're currently defaulting e's no whatever, 65537
mircea_popescu: for exactly asciilifeform 's reason : shorter this way
jurov: a111: strings are sequences, not lists. cons/car/cdr does not apply, there's different set of functions for these
asciilifeform: the 'everyone has same e' thing was slipped in under clinton , when his nsa invested in 'acre of asics' with e=3|e=65537 presumption baked in
mircea_popescu: in other domestic tranquility news, just finished stuffing a mason jar with baked peppers. they have some FABULOUS kapja peppers here.
apeloyee: the amount of computation that you must do ,<< the same as for any packet: 1 mod-exp and check padding. >> and bits you must buffer, to do friend-or-foe, is considerably larger. << twice as much. might be acceptable, depending on circumstances.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: it makes , e.g., udp (512byte) impossible.
mircea_popescu: and i just appointed a new crown provider of chocolate. you should see this thing, so endearingly evidently hand-made copy of "how a chocolate looks" when hershey makes it...
asciilifeform: the sad thing is that ( at least until we get, e.g., the shortwave net, going ) there are some boxes of fixed size, that in practice gotta be sat down into if at all possible
mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone wants some chocolate/coffee/whatever mp-approved products shipped lemme know ima send you a batch.
asciilifeform: and one of these is the unfragged ip packet.
asciilifeform: oh neato
asciilifeform would rather pick up in person, when he finally gets around to visiting mircea_popesculandia
mircea_popescu: also works.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: sorta why i suggested making pub-exp nextprime(keccak(commentstring)). satisfies the basic req of e being 1) long 2) nonstandardized
mircea_popescu: stop providing support of "utility" for nextprime
mircea_popescu: it is an anti-useful non-feature.
asciilifeform: it dun matter if it leaks, for a public constant neh
mircea_popescu: there are some primitives you don't wanrt to keep around,
mircea_popescu: exactly like rat eggs.
asciilifeform: 'where is next prime' is perfectly legit wrench in any respectable numeric toolbox, wat
mircea_popescu: "but mp, rats don't reproduce by eggs" "And why do you have to thank for that ?"
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: who*
asciilifeform: reminds asciilifeform of his brother's 'from old flat, you brought mouse spores !!'
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: enlighten me, what does this wrench perfectly legitimately ever do ?
apeloyee: (512byte) << already impossible if must be both encrypted and signed
asciilifeform: making nonseekrit primes quickly, say
apeloyee: with rsa
asciilifeform: apeloyee: with 4096b rsa troo
asciilifeform: one or the other, per packet
mircea_popescu: apeloyee there is no such thing in tmsr rsa.
mircea_popescu: EITHER encrypted OR signed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's much faster ways, such as the 2^x - y method.
asciilifeform: waiwat
asciilifeform: that doesn't auto-map a n-bit integer to an n-bit prime.
asciilifeform: in n-bit ffa arithm.
mircea_popescu: it precisely does.
asciilifeform: let's hear now ?
mircea_popescu: if you want an n bit prime calculate 2^n and substract the correct small integer.
mircea_popescu: 2^300 - 153 eg
asciilifeform: i don't want ~an~ n-bit prime, i want THE n-bit prime corresponding to arbitrary n-bit input I.
mircea_popescu: or w/e, 2^400 - 593
asciilifeform: repeatably.
mircea_popescu: there is no such correspondence. there's more n than log n
asciilifeform: well not 1:1
asciilifeform: naturally
asciilifeform: but 'same input, same output'
mircea_popescu: well then stfu and read alf's haranguing re hashes.
asciilifeform: call it hash, yes, that outputs a prime.
asciilifeform: ( nothing to stop you from imposing other types of hash in between, incidentally . as i did in the pubexp example )
asciilifeform: it suffers from all of the limitations of other hashes.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the correct solution to this "quickly, prime this many bits long" is a n, k tuple which contains n as the bitsize and k as the "oddness". if you want the n - 396 k = 5 prime you get 2^396- 1229
mircea_popescu: ie, the 5th prime down.
asciilifeform: you get a handful of primes this way, before the arithmetic becomes unwieldy
asciilifeform: ( and definitely not ffatronic )
mircea_popescu: we're still not clear on "The needs this wrench helps". so far very much blender-toilet. "maybe someone somewhere needs to make turd batidos"
asciilifeform: at any rate, prime-constructor ( see apeloyee's thread re subj ) is entirely separate problem from 'prime hash'
asciilifeform: blender-toilets are standard in some locales, in fact
asciilifeform: where narrow pipes
mircea_popescu: your "prime hash" is not equiprobable, worst fucking hash ever.
mircea_popescu: "add the digits" is a better hash.
asciilifeform: what means 'not equiprobable'
mircea_popescu: that you'll get some values more likely than others.
apeloyee: I didn't claim prime constructer, just an improved method to generate candidates for miller-rabin
asciilifeform: and how the hell does it compare to 'add the digits' -- there you get $base possible outputs
mircea_popescu: but much more balancedly so.
asciilifeform: nextprime gives countprimes(n) possible outputs.
asciilifeform: and is as balanced as your rng is honest
mircea_popescu: a hash where output x is y times more likely than output z is not a hash. it's a fash.
asciilifeform: its only flaw is that it leaks via time
apeloyee: some primes have many composites before them and thus are more likely
mircea_popescu: ^
asciilifeform: this is troo hm
mircea_popescu: in fact imo the "prime hash" is a textbook example of "worst hash ever".
mircea_popescu: i can'\t come up with a worse one on the spot.
apeloyee: return 4;//guaranteed to be random
asciilifeform: well if done with nextprime() then yes worst
mircea_popescu: apeloyee great hash. always yields 4. unbreakable. what's the problem ?
asciilifeform: but it remains open q , whether it can be done correctly (equiprobably)
asciilifeform: (i.e. such that there is ~nothing~ that can be said in advance re what kind of prime will be chosen)
apeloyee: write-only memory (TM)
mircea_popescu: in fact, the return 4; hash is the ~only hash function about which we can say with certainty that no inverse exists.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: TRUTH!
mircea_popescu: great fucking hash, sadly not very usable.
asciilifeform: incidentally, if one believes in hashes per se,
asciilifeform: consider function :
asciilifeform: hash-until-isprime
asciilifeform: dun suffer, in principle, from the nextprime()-problem
asciilifeform: ( suffers from the flaw of potentially never terminating tho )
mircea_popescu: might actually be an interesting approach to the whole "hash evaluation" problem.
asciilifeform: hm?
mircea_popescu: see their PRIME densities etc.
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: afaik even the shoddiest 1980s hash algo, produce ~perfect 'white noise'. hence the popularity of faux-rng via hashwhitener etc.
mircea_popescu: "perfect" under what scrutiny ?
asciilifeform: ( see ancient metathread running back to 2013 )
asciilifeform: under every known scrutiny .
asciilifeform: ( aside from knowing the riddle key )
mircea_popescu: even the shoddiest 2011 scammers produce ~perfect "bitcoin business opportunities". hence the popularity of scam-investment.
mircea_popescu: something like that ?
mod6 shudders
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737571 << if k MSBs of N are 1s, then k MSBs of p and q both are 1s, ie it only leaks sometimes. the leak itself is small, but since slightly biased RNG wouldn't be acceptable, then why this is?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:25 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737516 << this is no leak ; it is a restatement of "first two bits set to 11, so you only use 2045 bit keys"
asciilifeform: nah, in the sense where neither i nor anybody else can distinguish hash(fg output) from hash(we fuck pigs) , without knowing the answer ahead of time
mircea_popescu: apeloyee because this is a mathematical leak, it's not avoidable properly speaking. multiplication is not a neutral op wrt the tails of the multiplicands. but leaks.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 approach☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
mircea_popescu: once you decide rsa is based on mult, you decide to take the mult leak.
apeloyee: what's the range of candidate p's?
asciilifeform: it is possible, this way, to leak 'half a bit' instead of whole.
asciilifeform: apeloyee exactly half of the bitness of modulus.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee from 11(2045 bits unset)1 to 11(2045 bits set)1
apeloyee: then my argument still applies
mircea_popescu: ah you meant in his thing. yes it still applies, he shaves a further half bit is all.
mircea_popescu: at significant cost, twas in the logs.
asciilifeform: i did note this, you don't escape by gluing upper bits to equal 1
asciilifeform: it's the same as doing nothing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sometimes i get this feeling like he's trying to discern if we're idiots.
asciilifeform: hey, d00d pumped his listening-before-talking muscle for so long that it's schwartzneger-sized
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737923 << i gotta add to this before it runs away : when making ~scriptlang~ ( rather than an actual lispm ) very different set of design tradeoffs might be acceptable, it they reduce complexity and in particular nonlisp LOC☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 18:50 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737529 << that doesn't sound right, read and eval are distinct phases, by the time you get to eval you shouldn't be operating with strings when but instead with interned symbols (i.e. things that can be eq'd in lisp and pointer equivalent on c machine level)
asciilifeform: i would like to see the minimal practical nonlisp loc, in such an animal
asciilifeform: which could mean, for instance, dispensing with entire concept of interned string
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737917 << yes that was it! ty davout☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 18:00 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737733 <<< "lord of war" iirc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to get back to teh ceausescu lulz : he describes vasile alecsandri (a rich, old boyar who also wrote poems, very much like say pushkin, massive landholder etc. but ceausescu discusses his work in terms of oyu know, "this journalist kid from the 1800s, did his job, wrote for the people".
mircea_popescu: i very much doubt he understood alecsandri as anything else. "a writer", yes, like a sort of newspaper man ++, a young mark twain, maybe talented, his paternal job being to "make available circumstances to development".
asciilifeform: or possibly he wasn't prepared to piss on his pushkin ?
asciilifeform: just as sov folx were not
mircea_popescu: not at all. he had the most cursory familiarity with the man's work, of the exact sort as might have been pounded into a trades apprentice during basic schooling by kingdom efforts.
mircea_popescu: had no idea of eg the man's letters, as they weren't in the 3rd grade manual. or of anything else.
asciilifeform: hey americans to this day have ~0 problem 'respecting', e.g., washington, despite slave fleet ( and on top of it, near-total unletteredness )
mircea_popescu: i do not believe the man had any sort of comprehension of the world outside the sheerest anachronism.
asciilifeform: sorta half of what makes'im interesting imho
mircea_popescu: the ro folklore imagines the emperor's court as a sort of larger peasant house. i have no doubt ceausescu imagined all others as a sort of "people from village i have known"
mircea_popescu: 100% petrus in this sense.
asciilifeform: time machine escapee.
mircea_popescu: in a sense. yes, there's a certain purity in ignorance.
mircea_popescu: (but the above, there is mention made of eg, emperor going out into the pridvor, ie peasant style veranda. cuz he must've had one. and so on. how could a house be without ? esp if rich enough ?)
asciilifeform: waitasec is this false cognate with the ru
mircea_popescu: all ro words are false cognates. that's what ro does.
asciilifeform: ( the noun is lost, but придворный remains 'courtier' )
mircea_popescu: cognate with old slavonic pritvoru
mircea_popescu: ~exonartex
asciilifeform: of course reality caught up with poor shoemaker's imagination, and today's 'emperors' indeed have not only front porches but armchair with tv with foxnoose, and refrigerator full of 'bud'
asciilifeform: just like the lowest prole
mircea_popescu: ironically, romania's communist party had made the socialist republic very very far from the "sacred ideals". usg much more worthy of the S than rsr ever manafged to be.
asciilifeform: sorta accounts for my somewhat contrarian reaction to the much-advertised 'golden toilet' aspect of ceaucescu
mircea_popescu: (more fully visible, this evolution, in china. communists, rite ?)
asciilifeform: 'hey cool, he DIDN'T have fridge-of-bud')
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's scandalous ahistorism. the man ate ~like a monk.
mircea_popescu: was, amusingly, vegetarian.
asciilifeform: bbbut the museum ! ( they opened a 'ceaucescu's summer palace' thing , with golden errrythings )
asciilifeform: 2015 iirc
apeloyee: ascillifeform: what do you need a scriptlang for if haz a proper lispm? to bootstrap lispm interpreter/compiler?
mircea_popescu: by all accounts he had no sex in the 70s or 80s ; but in any case had not even satisfied that minimum bar of middle class bourgeoisie of a 2nd girl somewhere.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: i ain't got a proper lispm, and neither does anybody else
asciilifeform: but yes, to ditch the pyturds and perlisms
asciilifeform: and the multi-GB liquishit ecosystem they drag along
asciilifeform: i want a functioning scriptron on, e.g., my dos box.
apeloyee: "ecosystem" is optional
mircea_popescu: worst kind of optionality. optional like woman is optional. in practice...
asciilifeform: ^
apeloyee: how to avoid perlization of $newscriptlang then?
mircea_popescu: the memstructs.
asciilifeform: same way we avoid gavinization of trb, for instance.
mircea_popescu: keeping sane memstructs 99% of the job i am pretty well persuaded.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other lulz :
mircea_popescu: !~google olga kalashnikova
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Olga Kalashnikova - IMDb: <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5728027/>; Science - Aerosols And Clouds (329J): People: Olga Kalashnikova: <https://science.jpl.nasa.gov/people/Kalashnikova/>; about - Olga Kalashnikova | Actor, Model, Producer: <https://www.olgakalashnikova.com/about>
asciilifeform: wassat
mircea_popescu: (dudin's alt-explanation of who *** was in to ***)
mircea_popescu: some slavegirl.
asciilifeform: which linked chix is the 1 in question ? the film extra, or the academic
mircea_popescu: neither.
asciilifeform: or some other
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: 'tis a pretty common name actually
asciilifeform: ( originally a kalash is a type of breading )
asciilifeform: so roughly 'baker'
mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/45CHT/?raw=true item
asciilifeform: aaaa lol
phf: asciilifeform: i understand your point, but i'm not sure that the author in question made a choice by considering viable alternatives, rather than from not knowing
asciilifeform: phf: my understanding is that author was simply doing homework
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> 100% petrus in this sense. << Petrus Macht Frei!
asciilifeform: btw phf seems like ivory not happenin' any time soon ( see thread http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737657 ) .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:55 asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd.
apeloyee: do you like the 'ivory' architecture so much?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: actually i do not particularly like it
apeloyee: then...?
mircea_popescu: not that many examples of not fundamentally braindamaged computing around.
mircea_popescu: he likes the z80 for the same reasons in the same way. and other obsolete matter.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: but on the other hand any attempt to build a sane arch, without fully grasping the bolix stack, from ic to the compiler, is lunacy.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> of course reality caught up with poor shoemaker's imagination, and today's 'emperors' indeed have not only front porches but armchair with tv with foxnoose, and refrigerator full of 'bud' << The local noise is dominated by 'bud' sales freefalling. Popular yet unverifiable by me theory is lack of once much marketed 'Born on date' discontinued by the Brazilians is letting retailers and wholesalers keep rancid product on
BingoBoingo: shelf.
mircea_popescu: alternatively, beer is swill to begin with, and esp the alt-flavoured sprite they sell in the us.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if 'coke' dies, 'pepsi' will reign, the basic idea remains
asciilifeform: 'emperor' drinks same flavoured water as the prole, today.
BingoBoingo: The point is once lowered, bar keeps finding ways to fall further
asciilifeform: apeloyee: ever see the infamous kalman reti film ? ( http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-16#925610 mirror still seems to work )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-11-16 19:08 asciilifeform: http://people.csail.mit.edu/reti/SymbolicsTalk28June2012.m4v
asciilifeform: i dun normally recommend 'screen films' but there is simply no other way to properly summarize what bolix was.
asciilifeform: it has to be seen.
phf: apeloyee: i have a friend who periodically attempts to write his own programming language, but without reading any documentation. when i ask him, hey, why not read lisp in small pieces or something, he just goes "well, i'm going to learn something just by trying", which i recently realized is straight up american education model. there's nothing that comes out of it though, he just keeps banging his head against solved problems!
asciilifeform: this is the inevitable doom of people who will not read.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-05#1188842 << see also☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-05 23:53 asciilifeform: or that other thread, which i can't seem to find, where we spoke of how 'maths wot is not essential for being published, but for even having publishable ideas instead of burning your life on fibonacci sequences or some other solved/irrelevant dead end'
mircea_popescu: "could you guess from context what the unknown word means ???"
mircea_popescu: the only answer is no.
asciilifeform: ( consider -- if the 'meaning can be had from context', why is the word even there on the page ? )
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, the page.
asciilifeform: aaha
mircea_popescu: it's the fundamental orcism, this. expressed pluriously by the orcs now inhabiting the once-proud colonies. "you couldn't know as you haven't experienced". really, bitch ? what the fuck DO YOU THINK KNOWLEDGE EVEN IS!
mircea_popescu: and so on, a whole host of, centrally, the same thing. a sort of iliterate solipsism.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron.
asciilifeform: just as ceaucescu was content to 'steal' vlsi from the decaying west, i am perfectly content to steal the algos from bolix.
asciilifeform: by all indications, they were pretty effective -- but, far more importantly -- extremely compact.
asciilifeform: ( they had to be )
asciilifeform: and with ~zero~ overflowandcrashlang 'legacy' crapolade in the stack.
asciilifeform: unlike every single extant piece of computing artifact .
asciilifeform: the bolix people fit a complete lisp-to-silicon system in less space than taken by original 'wolfenstein' .
asciilifeform: and it ran ok at 8mhz.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know it's traditionally spelled ceausescu. there's no soft c in romanian, esp not next to e.
asciilifeform: i'm missing the proper letter on this particular terminal anyway lol
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did anyone transcribe this ?
asciilifeform: which this
mircea_popescu: reti's speech. wtf is with the sound only bs.
asciilifeform: ( note that no one in ru has any doubt how to pronounce d00d's name, because чаушеску makes perfect sense )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc there was a captioned version on youtube. but seems to have evaporated.
mircea_popescu: !G speech-to-text http://people.csail.mit.edu/reti/SymbolicsTalk28June2012.m4
mircea_popescu: we need more bots.
mircea_popescu: who wants to bring up a speech to text thing ?
asciilifeform: iirc d00d doesn't exactly speak the king's englisch
asciilifeform: so might not work
asciilifeform: even if it worked
mircea_popescu: gotta start somewhere.
mircea_popescu: why is he so fucking nervous ?
mircea_popescu: what is with all these people!
asciilifeform: maybe he knew that the money were running out, lol
asciilifeform: ( reti is the other half of dks-and-reti skeleton crew )
asciilifeform: iirc he is the orig author of the ersatz ivory emulator
mircea_popescu: i know a bunch of imbeciles who should speak a lot more hesitatingly than this guy. such as for instance ~everyone not-white. somehow, they don't, going all the way to like obama daring to even open his mouth in public.
mircea_popescu: world is fucking backwards.
ben_vulpes: fwiw google makes their robotranscripts available over http
mircea_popescu: i expect, yes.
asciilifeform: 'Kalman Reti worked for Symbolics from 1982 through 1992, mostly on VLSI tools for Ivory but also writing low-level device support (e.g. a LMFS recovery utility, R/W optical drive support, LZW compressor, etc.) The last few years of that were spent doing customer consulting. After being laid off when Symbolics went into chapter 11, Kalman worked for Apple in Cambridge, first on MCL and later, after MCL was sold to Digitool, on Dylan.
asciilifeform: Kalman was hired after that by Symbolics Technology, Inc., who had acquired the assets of Symbolics from the bankruptcy court, to work on further productizing the emulator for the Alpha. This was used by John Mallery at MIT to run his document distribution system for the White House during the Clinton presidency. When the owners of that venture decided that a financial company had no business owning a computer company, a private ind
asciilifeform: ividual bought the assets and Kalman spent 4 years as a "captive consultant" for him. Since 2002, when he ran out of money, I've worked for Ab Initio (doing nothing with lisp except emacs hacks).'
asciilifeform: ( src, another d00d who was there, infamous crackpot http://fare.livejournal.com/168016.html )
phf: (crackpot in question is also in all your lisps, fucking with your asdfs)
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: iirc phf dun like fare so much.
asciilifeform: i dun either
mircea_popescu: since we're doing this, here's a fundamental point i don't understand.
mircea_popescu: why, again, is there a relation between cpu register bit width and memory-allocation-unit bit width ?
mircea_popescu: for one thing, historical concept of pages seems to suggest that the relationship is exactly of the nature of "byte=octet, we're dumb".
asciilifeform: let's suppose the contrary
mircea_popescu: let's.
asciilifeform: how would memory-to-reg and reg-to-memory MOV look on this iron ?
mircea_popescu: how does mult of two regs look ?
asciilifeform: lessay ram is fetchable in 11bit chunks but regs are, say , 17 wide
asciilifeform: mult is necessarily 2b wide ( where b is the reg bitness )
mircea_popescu: let's instead say thatr we have a modern machine, with 64 bit bytes and 1mb bit pages.
asciilifeform: pages are not a fundamental unit tho
mircea_popescu: in this model they are. memory (ram, disk, whatever -- comes in pages)
asciilifeform: ( they are only reflected in iron at all, on 'optimized for c' abortions where have 'iron pagetable' )
mircea_popescu: so your hdd nodes, for instrance, are... 1mb. and your ddram lines are... 1mb.
asciilifeform: but a page is simply a fixed qty of addressable machinewords
mircea_popescu: yes, but hardware-fixed.
mircea_popescu: one drive sector, one ddr line.
mircea_popescu: and, obviously, 1 video buffer.
asciilifeform: well orig q was 'why is there a relationship' but seems like mircea_popescu is really asking 'why pc regs so tiny'
mircea_popescu: no, i am asking why exactly is one item unrelated to another item married to it.
asciilifeform: there being a relationship at all, comes from the fact that the two types of bucket regularly get emptied into one another
mircea_popescu: it's obvious why cpu regs are "tiny" : so many lines worth putting down in gold.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this seems sufficient cause to you ?
asciilifeform: i have noted in the past that it is possible to have, e.g., wider regs but fewer of'em
asciilifeform: with same transistor cost
mircea_popescu: rather, keep the regs, gimme "page to page hdd to ram and video" ops.
asciilifeform: ( the 1 exception where the cost is nonlinear may be the barrel shifter )
asciilifeform: let's consider how ram is typically sold
mircea_popescu: consider if you wrote/read the disk/net/video 1mb at a time.
asciilifeform: chip is typically 'x * y' where x is input bitness and y -- output
asciilifeform: so you can readily buy, e.g., 16x1 i.e. 65536 bits of ram, addressable 1 bit at a time
asciilifeform: ( e.g. 0000000000000000 input gives you the first of'em )
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: you can also buy x * 4, x * 8, x * 9, 16, 18 ( most common sizes )
asciilifeform: at one time they were uncommon, and a stick of memory tended to have as many chips as the bus bitness
asciilifeform: ( using x*1 strictly )
asciilifeform: but even with the widest, you will need quite a few to make machine with, e.g., 8192-bit word. ( and your cpu now needs 8192bit regs 0
asciilifeform: )
mircea_popescu: now suppose i want to read some of this memory. what happens is that the controller reads A WHOLE LINE, and then selects from it the bit i wanted and spits it out.
mircea_popescu: but this is spuriosity. let it feed out... the whole line.
asciilifeform: what's the use of simultaneously lighting up a whole line, simply to blow the clock cycle on reading 1 bit ??
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how is a 1GB ram chip store the 2^30 bits ?
asciilifeform: matrix
mircea_popescu: and this matrix is about... 1mb wide ?
asciilifeform: it's generally ~square, geometrically
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because you ~never read one bit. that's the issue here, whole fucking hardware is built around nonsense. nobody reads 1 bit ; and for most applications 1 byte (ie, 64 bits!) is actually an underbyte.
asciilifeform: well yes. hence typical pc has 128+b wide drams
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform fwis mostly rectangular, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform typical pc has the following situation : 64 bit registers, 128 bit memory, 1024 bit disk sectors, 64 mb video buffers, and atop sitting a drunk driver who thinks 8 bits are a byte.
mircea_popescu: if this makes sense...
mircea_popescu: meanwhile we're introducing 4096 bit keys, and 4096 bit message sizes.
asciilifeform: worse
asciilifeform: recent (~decade) x86 has 128, and even 256b, registers also..
asciilifeform: hybrid of bulldog and rhinoceros on every level
mircea_popescu: whatr the fduck is he even talking about, "tagging every word". fucker, small words hardly worth tagging! make your word 4096 bits, tag THAT.
asciilifeform: there was ONE size of word
mircea_popescu: "oh, couldn't be done on hardware of back then". tell you what, fucking your wife also couldn't be done on your hardware of back when junior high.
asciilifeform: and no such thing as untagged, on whole box. that was the whole strength of the edifice.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but too small.
asciilifeform: they'd happily have made 512b words, if the iron existed.
asciilifeform: as it is 40b broke the back.
mircea_popescu: i suspect.
asciilifeform: whole thing was a valiant effort to make a thing that was just short of technologically impossible.
mircea_popescu: and that meanwhile became quite technologically comfortable.
asciilifeform: fwiw the 3600 series ( pre-ivory ) were 36b
asciilifeform: item grew as the iron became available ( i do not even say 'affordable' , thing was a 'cost no object' design, like aston-martin )
mircea_popescu: he's now at describing the mindbogglingly ugly hacks of how to get 32 bit fixnums out of 36 bit words with 6 bits of tag and 2 of code and so on, "oh actually the lowe order quarter can be repurposed"
mircea_popescu: holly hell already.
mircea_popescu: be less poor, solve better problems.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform ( and quite a few other folx, i suspect even earlier ) realized in ~2005 that it was eminently practical with modern silicon
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what did they use as hardware hash ?
asciilifeform: but modern silicon instead gets 2million transistors for motherfucking tlb cache so that winblowz can page less.
mircea_popescu: (lulz of all time, 3600 came with built-in bitcoin miner)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wish i knew ! sorta why i wanted the thing microscopied.
mircea_popescu: ikr.
asciilifeform: plenty of unanswered q's re the arch.
mircea_popescu: esp as this apparently was ephemera.
asciilifeform: it was ALL ephemera.
asciilifeform: these folx had no notion of making any of the details public.
mircea_popescu: mit. pshew.
asciilifeform: ( can't even say i have any outrage over this, there was no logical reason to publish )
asciilifeform: mit was not involved other than as patent licensor/troll at that point
mircea_popescu: it was involved as mental poison in these people's heads.
mircea_popescu: no conception of who the enemy is and why exactly, etcetera.
asciilifeform: they were ~same as su academics , in that respect
phf: well, folx in question plundered as much as they could from mit and carefully guarded whatever they themselves produce. i don't know about there not being "logical reason to publish"
asciilifeform: and yes if you publish , patent troll could easily use it against you, so culture of seekrecy
mircea_popescu: "worst thing that can happen to smart people is an easy money source early on"
asciilifeform: 'must hide my theft'
asciilifeform: same reason for ~90% of closedsourcedriverism today, say.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something deeply wrong with response to mother shrieking about her daugher being fucked diverging from beating mother up / fucking her too. but... we digress.
phf: it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs
asciilifeform: hey if pyongyang or bucharest were running a lispm project and invited defectors, i suspect folx would've come
asciilifeform: phf: aha, it was why scheme(orig. '79') cpu, evaporated
mircea_popescu: amusingly bucharest had nfi idea at the time it COULKD have done such a thing. literally 0 conception of what any of the items we're discussing here WERE. at all. not even the priors present.
asciilifeform: su had, interestingly, early and stillborn attempt at lispm
asciilifeform: ( really, 'refal'-m )
mircea_popescu: phf i had the idea cadr more of a common ancestor, to smbx too.
asciilifeform: ( died with the sunken atlantis, nothing afaik heard of it since 1990 )
phf: well, rms's nervous break down makes some sense when you actually read the code. there's a very obvious clear "steal everything that's not bolted" going on. cadr's SYSTEM sources were being developed in parallel with symbolics and LMI (to the point that there are conditionals in the cadr's code to compile os both on lmi and genera), with interactions slowly decreasing over time
mircea_popescu: im not even sure what theft means in this context.
mircea_popescu: can you define ?
asciilifeform: iirc rms was most incensed re the luring away of ~people~, rather than lifted code
mircea_popescu: the attempt might well illustrate why i meant above re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738293 (o oops, i stoled myself!)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:43 mircea_popescu: it was involved as mental poison in these people's heads.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i had the same impression. social not technological issue.
asciilifeform: none of the code in question -- at least in so far as it is accessible to modern archaeologist's eye -- was particularly deep
asciilifeform: ( re rms specifically )
asciilifeform: rms was not ,in so far as i can tell, involved in the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738171 aspects )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:10 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron.
mircea_popescu: it is particularily difficult to explain what one means by theft of a) ideal objects by b) parties who actually own them intellectually and c) when the objects were produced within their lifetimes.
asciilifeform: greenspun, on other hand -- was
mircea_popescu: (ownership here means what it means sexually -- if she submits she's yours, woman, idea, whatever.)
mircea_popescu: plurious agents can own the same idea in the mannger they can have the same girlfriend. knowing about it not required.
asciilifeform: it was never clear to me from rms's surviving writing what he thought mit ought to have done with the lispm, if not to license to manufacturers
asciilifeform: mit was never in the business of selling comps
asciilifeform: i suspect that he simply did not even think about it.
mircea_popescu: i suspect he was a bureaucrat (intellectually insufficient ; aware of this ; politically ambitious) and he resented the lack of control over smarter people.
mircea_popescu: no more than this.
mircea_popescu: his political activism later on entirely predicable on this.
asciilifeform: d00d was in no sense in control tho
asciilifeform: he wasn't the director of lispm group or anything of the kind
mircea_popescu: control as the psychological construct is complicated.
phf: mircea_popescu: i was taking a poetic liberty there. it's the new appearance of a self serving strategy where there wasn't necessarily one (or the strategy changes drastically). the core of activity shifts elsewhere, but the original points of contact are maintained for the sole purpose of taking any new ideas that might've been introduced.
mircea_popescu: phf in the sense that they were trying to sell the machines, but avoid as much of the dev work as humanly possible ?
asciilifeform: near as i can tell, he was the proverbial nursing home patient described on trilema, who says 'died, whaddayamean, died, where is jane?! we were USED to her' re every colleague who went off to bolix or lmi
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform entirely possible.
mircea_popescu: bbs.
phf: mircea_popescu: right
mircea_popescu: not altogether clear how self-serving that was.
mircea_popescu: given that a) someone was going to make a billion dollars and b) it'd have been preferable it not be gates & jobs.
asciilifeform: re (b) neither of'em was pictured as in same market at all, any moar than pepsicola
asciilifeform: sorta how northrop does not see itself in competition with cessna
mircea_popescu: i could reinterpret the objection in the terms of "mit ai lab had no common ideology", a copacetic statement of "they failed to republic" which is exactly what i meant by http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738294 and so on.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:43 mircea_popescu: no conception of who the enemy is and why exactly, etcetera.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the matter was fluid in 1980. could have been.
mircea_popescu: nytimes also didn't "picture itself in competition with the weird net kids". and so following, chuck e cheese dude's "ipad restaurant" didn't see itself in competition with phones. "it's a restaurant". no it's not.
asciilifeform: re ai lab -- mircea_popescu how do you picture a buncha taxpayer-funded academics not-'failing-to-republic' , hypothetically ?
asciilifeform: what would this look like
mircea_popescu: same way the same exact item opened cannon fire at the "taxpayers" from atop the walls of oxford.
asciilifeform: they move to amish countryside and make lispms out of grass ?
mircea_popescu: nope. they drag the local barristas into the campus by the hair to be raped for a weekend at a time.
asciilifeform: oxford was a kind of su, or ro if you like, self-fueling
mircea_popescu: so ? who made it that way, king bohemius the 9th ?
asciilifeform: the fact that it was solar-powered ?
mircea_popescu: change college admission to be more like arrest, for one thing.
asciilifeform: ^ as depicted in stephensen's 'anathem' aha !
mircea_popescu: ("oh, romanian gymnasts!!!" "yeah, right. you are aware none of the girls actually wanted to be there, yes ?")
asciilifeform: ( he worked entire fictional portrait of what imho is proper university... )
mircea_popescu: but leaving these proper statements aside -- never mind the civilisational aspect, limit yourself to culture. they might've bothered to realise the only enemy is the taxpayer, moved to limit his impact on government. exactly as the medieval collegiate disputes flew.
mircea_popescu: there were two groups worth the mention during "golden age" of europe : mechants, and scholars. the prime characteristic of either ? immune to common law process!
asciilifeform: superficially their scheme works to this day -- i.e. 'you can elect anyone you like, but he'll be a harvaprinceyalton graduate, muhahaha'
mircea_popescu: merchants had merchant code, scholars had what meanwhile became an universalised immunity, "first conviction walk"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except it doesn't do anything. works like a painting works.
asciilifeform: at this point that describes their whole civilizational shebang, the hollow husk
asciilifeform: but originally -- worked. or how do you suppose the 'ivies' got, and stayed, fat.
mircea_popescu: fatness is not a goal of anything but pigs.
mircea_popescu: the important point is to be able to make the world make fucking sense against the constant yelps of the idiots who want the world to be comfortable.
mircea_popescu: and thereby, an ivory on every desk not a fucking windows.
mircea_popescu: and if this takes putting a few million instagramers on stakes, ALL THE BETTER.
asciilifeform: the winblowz item still strikes me as anachronistic, rather like the supposition that men killed tyranosaur.
asciilifeform: the 2 were not contemporaneous.
mircea_popescu: that final "all the better" being the republic part. they failed to construct this system whereby extreme violence applied to everyone else was a net positive, in and of itself, for no other reason.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 1983 to 1985 is 3600, yes ?
asciilifeform: 1980-86 approx yea
asciilifeform: ( e.g. my 3620 was circa '86 )
mircea_popescu: 1981, gates (and allen) struck ibm deal
mircea_popescu: that made them exist.
mircea_popescu: how not EXACT contemporaries ?
asciilifeform: by that token jobs existed in '77 neh
mircea_popescu: thjat is the ~only token re windows.
asciilifeform: the 'mouse spores' were indeed, yes, present
asciilifeform: hm ok i see it
mircea_popescu: in 1982 microsoft was fully built.
mircea_popescu: it was nothing else hence.
asciilifeform: until mid '90s nobody even in bad dreams considered it a threat to industrial iron tho.
mircea_popescu: SO ?
mircea_popescu: until macrosensible nobody even in bad dreams considers the cancer a threat.
asciilifeform: right.
mircea_popescu: it's there whether considered or disconsidered.
mircea_popescu: the over-reaching all-important point is that had the dudes of 1985 produced an ideologically-closed system, by 1995 there'd have been a WHERE for people to go, other than windows.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733724 observation )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 22:59 asciilifeform: this is the fate of all 'we don't have an ideology' derps
mircea_popescu: (closed here means "without externalities" rather than anything else)
asciilifeform: ideology is the only working pill against 'market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent'
mircea_popescu: possibly there be others.
asciilifeform: possibly, but not discovered yet.
mircea_popescu: moreover -- doubtful pill. didn't help soviets ; didn't help romanians.
mircea_popescu: the latter needed moar size ; the former a better ideology. evidently worked for eg china, so there is some tolerance.
asciilifeform: it isn't an invincibility pill
asciilifeform: but the moar i dig into ro , the more astonishing the level of fight it was able to put up
asciilifeform: against the mcbeast.
asciilifeform: and for how long.
mircea_popescu: in this light quite remarkable, yes.
mircea_popescu: you recall that (uncharacteristically well written) orlov article re "power of nyet" ?
asciilifeform: aha !
mircea_popescu: very much it. extremely easy to defeat ustardation : just say no. it helps if you have a fully built system providing an alternative.
asciilifeform: ( tho i liked the other one -- http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-28#774690 -- moar )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-07-28 19:19 asciilifeform: 'Learn not to participate - to the point of utter impossibility of meeting the enemy 'half-way' - and you will see that inside there lay a very useful mindfuck: in learning to 'nonparticipate,' in fact you drew out your *will* from its scabbard - to which it seemed so securely riveted by your upbringing. The appearance of *your will* changes everything and forever. With your own will slipped into your boot knife
mircea_popescu: but anyway, in spite of an inability to speak in public, or to make sense, extemporaneously or not, ceausescu was a major player in the status quo of 70s and 80s. that whole "don't mix into the affairs of others", very strong nationalism, managed to paralyze the us-owned and hosted un for two decafdes.
asciilifeform: not much of a talker, but he was quick enuff on his feet ( pointedly unlike the su gerontocrats )
asciilifeform: also he had an actual nation, properly speaking, and made full use of the fact
mircea_popescu: ya prolly better statement.
asciilifeform: ( nationalism dun work in usa because with what; and verboten in su because ottoman-style empire )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the long run, stalin's internationalism proved the terribly wrong strategy. shoulda went with trotsky.
mircea_popescu: trotsky too idiotic to have stalin killed back when he could.
asciilifeform: by some accounts, d00d JustWanted(tm)
mircea_popescu: kinda why the whole ww2 made him so trotsky-sensitive, too.
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUfeuosbeJg << 1968 speech. "invasion a mistake and inconceivable outrage" most of the applause THAT time is genuine. "no justification available and no reasoning may be accepted" and so on.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738408 << at the risk of repeating ancient thread, imho if there were a ready alternative ( as in geographic , rather than merely ideological ) to usa, for the remaining ~functional people to defect to -- usa wouldn't last a week☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 21:40 mircea_popescu: very much it. extremely easy to defeat ustardation : just say no. it helps if you have a fully built system providing an alternative.
asciilifeform: or at the very least would retain the threadbare sanity of usa circa 1980s
mircea_popescu: this is dubious. will last, china likes it.
asciilifeform: china would make penal colony there, or something useful.
mircea_popescu: nah. it's already very much siberia as far as they're concerned.
mircea_popescu: fwis generally send shitty sons.
asciilifeform: afaik feeling is quite mutual : to my knowledge no white man to date defected, properly speaking, to the rice kingdom
mircea_popescu: a, lots.
asciilifeform: anyone i might know of ?
mircea_popescu: not usually advertised, but the expat community large indeed.
asciilifeform: ( plenty of folx from, e.g., ru, living and working in cn. but i am speaking of ~defectors~, as in 'i'd rather have a flat in pekin than continue as lt. colonel at nsa ' )
asciilifeform: a defector as i understand the word, is a honoured guest of the crown
asciilifeform: rather than simply i buy a plane ticket.
asciilifeform: it is when the folx on ~other end~ buy you plane ticket. or for that matter whole plane. and villa. etc
mircea_popescu: the problem with this is that soviet military man valuable ; chinese valuable ; romanian evidently valuable. what value does us tard bring ?
mircea_popescu: it's like asking about "flea defectors". parasytes dun meaningfully defect.
asciilifeform: tard none
asciilifeform: mr. reti -- possibly value
mircea_popescu: not with his current mannerisms.
asciilifeform: hey for all i know pacepa also stuttered
mircea_popescu: you'\re still missing the important point. usg is looking for a brand to show its large citizenry. much like every attempt to hold a tech fconference in argentina degenerates into a bunch of local tards speaking/stepping over each other to blather meaninglessly in the hope of thereby attaining a certificate of humanhood from the foreigners,
mircea_popescu: just so ustards are going to buy pacepa's nonsensical books.
mircea_popescu: the equivalent population does not exist, it's an epiphenomenon of collapsed colonies, like argentina, like america.
asciilifeform: su did hire martin & mitchell
mircea_popescu: it's not common for eg greeks or italians to go crazy over "the beatles", they simply make a local band like that and that's it.
asciilifeform: that they did not enjoy it so much, was their own problem
mircea_popescu: buncha defectors since korean war to china, but ... not nearly the same interest.
asciilifeform: because nobody wants fucking rice, lol
mircea_popescu: i suspect because no one wants americans for any purpose.
asciilifeform: su found a use for martin&mitchell. and buncha other similars. even for oswald, lol
asciilifeform: but naturally 'americans' dun get to defect, you gotta actually be someone
asciilifeform: moar specific than just 'd00d with black passport'
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: fromloper: who goes there
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't think of a competent anyone in the whole us army/navy/airforce brass.
mircea_popescu: what exactly could you possibly use one for ? not like they even have the usual value of "stolen documents", i guarantee you if you examed the O-paygrade you'd find not a single soul as well informed as the famous contractor/defector.
asciilifeform: engineers likely to know moar , i suspect, than general. and cost less.
fromloper: Somehow manage to get here by clicking on contact.
mircea_popescu: or i guess you don't count that one ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: defectors come in 'doing' shape as well as 'knowing'
asciilifeform: e.g. skilled folx
fromloper: This is however more pleasing to my eyes than the other black and green one
mircea_popescu: well in this sense whole dnc long defected to china, moved desperately to prevent ru-us rapproachment back in the early days of 2016 when sitll possible.
asciilifeform: fromloper: wai wat ?
fromloper: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in situ traitors are not properly speaking defectors
asciilifeform: i.e. they dun dream to live out the rest of their days in pekin
mircea_popescu: well how do you know what they dream etc.
fromloper: Any discussion about btc or bch today?
asciilifeform: fromloper: you just linked to a logtron. with search.
asciilifeform: fromloper: could readily answer the question with your own hands. why do you ask people to do the work of machine for you ?
asciilifeform: normally i would assume fromloper does not know about the log ( even though log is linked in subj line of #trilema ...! )
asciilifeform: but in this case even that excuse is not available
asciilifeform: so fromloper what gives ?
mircea_popescu: lol dood clicked a link, landed in pot.
asciilifeform must invoke herr babbage, 'i cannot rightfully apprehend the confusion of ideas...'
fromloper: I was in the http://www.loper-os.org and clicked on contact and landed in this nice pot.
asciilifeform: fromloper: relax, enjoy warm water
asciilifeform: generally noobs are advised to read the log for a spell, before considering whether they have something to say
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'defectors' it is a quite nostalgic subject for asciilifeform , because it is an item from meanwhile wholly vanished, like roman empire, age, where escape from an empire was simply a matter of getting through a wall
fromloper: ascii I have been reading logs when i relevant, also Trilema site.
asciilifeform: ( even despite the 'being someone' point, consider that 1 sailor who jumped from sov ship. usa did not send him back... )
fromloper: What happened to qntra site
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> d00d was in no sense in control tho << Most bureaucrats aren't
BingoBoingo: Bureacrats read scripts
mircea_popescu: i don't think this subject of your nostalgia ever existed outside the vhs world. it's like muller.
asciilifeform: it was able to exist when the wall was reasonably tight.
mircea_popescu: i dunno
asciilifeform: ( and when the aspiring escapees, i suspect, were the upper cut of the bell curve )
mircea_popescu: consider -- various mexican jumped border, us sent back.
mircea_popescu: but in general -- did not send.
asciilifeform: because they're seeking welfarola.
mircea_popescu: this makes a point of some kind ?
asciilifeform: and wall not so tall to begin with
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wait, and the sailor did not ?
mircea_popescu: !!up abrelosojos
deedbot: abrelosojos voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: the sailor afaik just wanted out
mircea_popescu: i seem to recall every single wall jumper net drain on puyblic chest for whole life.
asciilifeform: dunno if it makes sense to call, e.g., pacepa, net drain
asciilifeform: he did what whole army could not do
mircea_popescu: rly ? cuz what, he had a martha stewart type show on tv ?
asciilifeform: they sent whole ro kgb residentura in usa packing, neh
asciilifeform: did moar counterintel 'bang for buck' in 5min than whole usg in 50yrs
mircea_popescu: ro didn't really have agents in the us.
asciilifeform: so, what, whole yarn disinfo ?
mircea_popescu: ro did europe, mostly, kgb did us, mostly. they interoped.
mircea_popescu: (kgb also did europe, because paranoid. not very good, but ample resources)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, whbich yarn ?
asciilifeform: e.g. 'horizons'
asciilifeform: he goes on, and on, re residents in usa
asciilifeform: and later was given cia medal ( afaik the only runaway to be awarded )
mircea_popescu: right, and he survived because he scared them off. laissez.
asciilifeform: i've no clue why survived ( and it is by far not the only puzzle re the d00d )
mircea_popescu: this notion that ra-ra-ra usa-america is very much post 2000 nytimes construction. people in the 60s gave almost no shits about the us, unless like the italians they cxould directly leach.
asciilifeform: possibly they kept him in whitehouse basement for 20yrs, whynot.
asciilifeform: pacepa describes the afaik factual reason why his master gave a shit : semiconductor
asciilifeform: it was the first and last thing to properly speaking happen in usa.
mircea_popescu: people wanted to see italian films with antonelli, and french stuff, not hollywood nonsense.
mircea_popescu: romanians got them from the soviets as a general rule.
mircea_popescu: via switzerland or directly.
asciilifeform: not according to pacepa
mircea_popescu: well what can i tell you.
asciilifeform: su had problems lifting equipment wholesale
mircea_popescu: problems, everyone has.
mircea_popescu: but eg, the pdp the romanians cloned was obtaind via soviets. the z80s were all swiss sourced.
asciilifeform: according to pacepa -- su paid hard cash for what ro was able to lift from, e.g., texas instruments, hewlett-packard, the other giants.
BingoBoingo: <fromloper> What happened to qntra site << The isp quite on us. Hopefully Qntra returns ~December 15th.
asciilifeform: z80 was pre-vlsi item. think early '70s.
mircea_popescu: a dubious story altogether.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform early 70s was too late for pacepa lol.
asciilifeform: at any rate i was not sitting with pacepa playing with vlsi, cannot say what part fact, what -- fiction
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: defected in '78 neh
mircea_popescu: me either, nor could he have. anyway, to recap -- dood was chief of ro belin residency. once retired (from field work), about simultaneous with ceausescu ascension, was promoted to strategy role in bucharest.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but by the 70s his active duty time was over.
fromloper: Has anyone here ever discussed solving btc blockchain capacity problem?
mircea_popescu: defected as a 50yo. a 50yo ready to claim oswald worked for kgb.
mircea_popescu: fromloper what problem is that ?
asciilifeform: fromloper: how does one go about solving a wholly fictional problem ?
fromloper: MP The ever increasing amount of data
asciilifeform: fromloper: how would you propose to make a bitcoin without monotonically increasing data set ?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/#selection-113.0-113.81 << revisit 2015.
mircea_popescu: things don't change just because new generation of lambs came out of pregnant ewes this spring like each othe rspring before it.
fromloper: mp read that.
mircea_popescu: the claim would be more presuasive had you referenced it.
fromloper: I have been looking into it and maybe there is a solution. However i am no expert computer programmer
asciilifeform: fromloper: what is the problem to which you wish to see 'a solution' ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider : pacepa defected in bonn. why not in new york ? except if there was 0 reason for the spy chief to ever go to new york. and his period item (letter to dana) is knee deep in eurocentric issues. noel bernard, srsly ? who the fuck cares about noel bernard.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: again not having been there, cannot say. but presumably more watched by politruk, say, in nyc, than in bonn
fromloper: Banks curently keep a records of all txs and each account holder gets a personal statement
asciilifeform: some element of planets-aligned-correctly
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was the nominal chief of the whole shebang.
mircea_popescu: and he went to the hot spot of the whole shebang, which was teh germanies.
mircea_popescu: i'm telling you. romania mostly did europe.
fromloper: Blockchain could be redesign to hold the data and each address and balance over 1 sat. each user would have their own mini blockcahin of txs and not others.
mircea_popescu: and yes soviets paid occasionally for ro sourced tech. it was without known exception (to me) sourced in eg france.
asciilifeform: he describes the usa trips as specifically for the purpose of building cred, to get access to semiconductor goodies
mircea_popescu: !!down fromloper
mircea_popescu: describes in 1980.
asciilifeform: lol this fromloper was the saddest one to date iirc
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: they dun make pinoys like they usedta. 'each user would have their own mini blockcahin of txs and not others'
asciilifeform: this has got to be a new record.
mircea_popescu: they're fucked in the head, it's a cultural disease.
mircea_popescu: "everyone will be main player in his own world of warcraft!"
asciilifeform: this is something yet else, gotta be saturnism or the like
BingoBoingo: So do we contact Fort Meade or jolo to get an RMA number for this one
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, to put things in readily meaningful perspective : you going "oh shit, we can use this bit i dug up out of bernstein to improve phuctor speed" is 100% what a PRIME example of such "sourced tech" would have been. that the soviets'd have paid for and the whole project involved would be decorated and congratulated after taking however long, 18 months to do it.
asciilifeform: well yes it's what asciilifeform's father did for a living
asciilifeform: and million other people
mircea_popescu: that was the level. the problem with the romanians wasn't that they couldn't steal -- of course they could ; nor that it was in any way immoral or dubious to steal -- holy hell, country-in-development trying to catch up with technology, a good half of the techs involved were sympathetic anyway.
mircea_popescu: it was that a) it didn't know what to steal (as per above re lisp) and b) it couldn't steal fast enough.
mircea_popescu: this b especially.
asciilifeform: well there was also a (c)
asciilifeform: as illustrated by kurt tank in argentina
mircea_popescu: not afaik.
mircea_popescu: hm ?
asciilifeform: i.e. 'where do you plug in the electron microscope in goatfuckistan' problem
mircea_popescu: no such problem.
asciilifeform: it was a problem even for asciilifeform's father, cloning film projectors and discovering that the necessary spring steel could not be had
mircea_popescu: for one thing, 60s and 70s tech was not really advanced enough in this sense ; for the other, ro actually had better experts than the us had. just -- not enough of them.
asciilifeform: better expert does not necessarily make the necessary spring available in qty.
mircea_popescu: think -- the whole romanian section of ms/google etc was... in romania. that previous generation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform romania was moar industrialized than the soviets, in this sense. had fine alloys. had fine mechanics, everything.
mircea_popescu: like czechs exactly (another major source of soviet such needs)
asciilifeform: or like gdr
mircea_popescu: but the czechs -- even fewer.
mircea_popescu: those -- brand apart.
mircea_popescu: let's say "somewhat like"
asciilifeform: ( by some accounts ru strategic telecom ~to this day~ runs on gdr iron )
mircea_popescu: seems likely.
asciilifeform: before i fughet, here's asciilifeform's microscopy crackpottery of the day : contact print. consider, 370,000 transistors, on item roughly 1cm x 1cm. attach to standard ccd, say the 25 megapixel sort, and image with e.g. soft xray.
mircea_popescu: anyway. between this, "tech spying" and a whole lot of coutnerintel and military wankery, you've 99% of ro activity in the cold war. the former half minor in the early part and growing monotonously to come to overshadow latter part by 70s.
mircea_popescu: the pacepa nutteries with assassinations etc -- footnote, if present. then, as now, ~nobody gave a shit.
asciilifeform: semiconductor -- was the item about which gave a shit.
mircea_popescu: you know ro made its own semiconductors. what exactly ?
mircea_popescu: !~google iprs baneasa
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: ROMÂNIA FURATĂ. IPRS Băneasa , cumpărată la preţ de maşină de ...: <http://www.digi24.ro/special/campanii-digi24/romania-furata/romania-furata-iprs-baneasa-cumparata-la-pret-de-masina-de-lux-si-cu-acte-false-257599>; ROMÂNIA FURATĂ. IPRS Băneasa , o uzină cumpărată cu acte false ...: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: was able to make because good tech intel work, neh.
asciilifeform: rather than burning the 1000 manyears to bake from 1st principles
mircea_popescu: ^ 20 acre compound in bucarest. started production 62.
asciilifeform: what did they make in '62 ?
asciilifeform: afaik in '62 su made strictly diode and transistor
asciilifeform: ( as in , discrete items )
mircea_popescu: well i had the catalogs by year somewhere
BingoBoingo: In other lessons learned today, Montevideo free trade zone offers tax savings... Which at ISP scale would swiftly be consumed by "user fees" to the operator of the zona franca
mircea_popescu: so, in 1962 they had germanium doped transistors. under ~license~ you get this, thomson csf.
asciilifeform: pretty neato tho
mircea_popescu: 1963 first self-produced item, photodiode.
mircea_popescu: and fluorescent lamp starters.
asciilifeform: notbad. in 1953 was what, plows.
mircea_popescu: 1964 export diodes to france, 1966 first ic.
mircea_popescu: then they made automated coil makers, and various production line automatics
mircea_popescu: (this is 99% of what they did, even the z80 clones were intended for production line control, which it was hard to get one at home0
asciilifeform: in su also for production lines. and for artillery.
mircea_popescu: !~google doina didiv
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Doina Didiv Profiles | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/public/Doina-Didiv>; Doina Didiv | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/doina.didiv>; Petition · Donald Trump: Americans want their Doina ! · Change.org: <https://www.change.org/p/donald-trump-americans-want-their-doina>
mircea_popescu: ^ many years chief-of-C (ic section)
asciilifeform: 'What is Doina, you ask? Is it a candy bar? A protein bar? Does it contain meat, or is it gluten free and vegan? I. Don't. Know.' << lol!!
asciilifeform: ( from last link )
mircea_popescu: meh, nuts.
mircea_popescu: lessee
mircea_popescu: http://www.qsl.ro/yo3ccc/O%20viata%20dedicata%20componentelor%20electronice%20marca%20IPRS-Baneasa%20Doina%20Didiv/index.html << period photo collection
mircea_popescu: woman, 3rd on top line.
asciilifeform: oh hm
mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Dls7o/?raw=true << interview. possibly dude still answers to callsign
mircea_popescu: http://www.qsl.ro/yo3ccc/Cum%20arata%20drezina%20blindata%20folosita%20de%20Ana%20Pauker/slides/AP01.html#picttop << dood has various interestingobilia, incl ana pauker's traintrack-armoredcar.
asciilifeform: ( in further continuation of the microscopy q : what the everliving fuck happened to the beta ray microscope ? theoretically can do ~same thing as sem, but no need for massive electron gun, million volt power supply, or the vacuum pumps. where is it ?? )
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: check her out, exporting 3 inch silicium monocrystals.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that car looks like it were shot ?
mircea_popescu: well yes.
asciilifeform: but pauker died of cancer neh
mircea_popescu: afaik
asciilifeform: and what even was the reason for such an odd vehicle
mircea_popescu: who even knows!
asciilifeform: i've seen draisines on the railroad many times. but repair trucks, not limo.
mircea_popescu: i know, that's why i linked. dood has all sorts of weird.
asciilifeform: verily.