800+ entries in 0.289s
phf: neither current wot nor
gossipd spec wot have the history component, because if you go by "there's no rating outside of rater" past ratings make absolutely no difference.
trinque: whereas I see them as distinct; wot is the history of my past and present
gossipd connections, and indications of what I thought of them
trinque: I could see an argument that the WoT evolves into the
gossipd graph.
trinque: it becomes hard to distinguish from the
gossipd-graph, eh?
trinque: asciilifeform: release
gossipd already so I can write a DHT for it !1!!1 solves WoT, solves "DNS", solves ...
danielpbarron: this is counter the the
gossipd model of "i heard so-and-so said whatever"
trinque: under the present scheme I could do the same, but have to trust the wire to be honest, or find a better wire, which proceeds towards dragging
gossipd in as a dependency
mircea_popescu: my mind's eye foresees a time when all comms will consist of this.
gossipd over irc!
Framedragger: re tmsr dns, in principle don't see why not - it could just as well just update quite often. but not sure if
gossipd is taken into account (but then not sure about ip stack either, so..)
gabriel_laddel: Framedragger: if you want to do something useful, build the CLIM web I've described inbetween here and
gossipd.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: 1. he can fly 2. he can do something useful for tsmr~ == get the CLIM-web thing up and running inbetween here and
gossipd gabriel_laddel: Rather than debating the fine points of
gossipd, just implemented it and move on.
Framedragger: (ideally, i would guess, it'd munch datagrams, too, because
gossipd is to have no stateful connections of the tcp kind.)
gabriel_laddel: ^ exactly. then we just wait for someone to get annoyed enough with the backend that they swap it out with
gossipd.
Framedragger: "A0 can be implemented by regarding an authority's PGP public key as being its public routing address!" << nice kademlia and/or
gossipd vibes
trinque: mircea_popescu: no. once I know a key I can interact with deedbot if I can make it there over
gossipd peerings
Framedragger: asciilifeform: how about: make a proof of concept name system, use it instead of current dns root server set for now, later enable every
gossipd user to run their own instance of name system if they prefer the fully-decentralized-dictionary path; the initial PoC will still have been useful.
mircea_popescu: feel free to query it over
gossipd, or over whatever else.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:35 trinque: one central table of all things seems entirely anti-
gossipd Framedragger: so, yeah. and i'm no longer convinced it would redundant, in the sense that when
gossipd cometh, one must throweth the 'general name system' away
Framedragger: trinque: right, this is cf.
gossipd's "everyone has their own a la hosts file, and does with it what they like". is that what you meant?
trinque: one central table of all things seems entirely anti-
gossipd ☟︎ trinque: describe "wrapped in
gossipd" ?
Framedragger: re. plaintext for all NSAs to read, sure, there's that. goes against
gossipd's "no free bits for the unauthenticated" i guess. but again, this can be wrapped in
gossipd later.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do note that mircea_popescu's idea of keeping dns is more akin to a general WoT-enforced hashtable, update-able via (in principle)
gossipd-compatible pgprams, and (for the time being) transportable over dns/udp. the latter so that dns clients can make use of it.
mircea_popescu: (note that they quite exactly identify the exact reason
gossipd makes empire impossible : "In the case of a public communications system this condition of a common symbol set with a common semantic interpretation must be further strengthened to that of a unique symbol set with a unique semantic interpretation. This condition of uniqueness allows any party to initiate a communication that can be received and understood by any
Framedragger: well you cant fault them for not having heard of
gossipd. (cue everyone: YES YOU CAN). re. i2p, well its an interesting project. but - doomed.
ben_vulpes: "
gossipd? what dat. have you ever heard of i2p? what's an ethernet frame? shortwave?"
Framedragger: what is nice is that the dns transport itself is quite elegant - questions/answers - one packet for query, another for answer. so transport is (in principle) compatible with session-less
gossipd model, i think.
Framedragger: yes indeed; and now i see that maybe there wouldn't be too much of a redundancy there - that is, when
gossipd arrives, dns server could still accept pgprams, they'd simply come via
gossipd - and the latter may even sit behind an abstracted network interface, etc.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger yes, but communicatin by sending pgpgrams is already a simplified
gossipd is the point.
mircea_popescu: at first,
gossipd replaces the current "talk to servers to admin your strings" which happens, essentially, over substitute-email and
http-sessions. Framedragger: and maybe it's worth to focus on
gossipd first. but i see what you're saying regarding these two things being parallel. i guess.
Framedragger: the whole "patch a DNS server and run alternative root" effort sounds interesting and useful, but, as you said, eventually the underlying layer would need to swapped for
gossipd anyway. in
gossipd, UDP/TCP as currently used by DNS may not even work. hence there may be a redundancy of effort;
mircea_popescu: there is EXACTLY ONE solution to "zooko's triangle" - and it is called
gossipd. it works by crushing the socialist mind and its foul expectation of "any person is any person". not fucking so.
Framedragger: to an extent, i would say, no? in
gossipd, user would have their own "hosts" file, mapping mircea_popescu to $fingerprint or w/e
Framedragger: there is a nuance: if lotsa customization is needed, perhaps time/energy is better spent on
gossipd. a logistical question i guess.
mircea_popescu: and in these terms, a very simple explanation of why the republic is indefeatable is very simply forthcoming : given two users a and b who, through division of labour, have expertise in fields f1 and f2, the empire path for a to access f2 or for b to access f1 is to take some money all the way from -3 to 3 TWICE. whereas the republican model simply has a talk to b, on the mediation of a
gossipd/wot
mircea_popescu: certainly the discussion of
gossipd needs some updating.
mircea_popescu: emacs frozen as part of
gossipd, other implementations allowed at user's discretion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well with any luck tmsr fork of emacs will be part of
gossipd anyways.
mircea_popescu: i jus' did, and best i can see it is sufficient, and how we'll do stuff like rsa encryption/decryption over uci once
gossipd is here.
mircea_popescu: trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the
gossipd spec.
mircea_popescu: in other words : paillier in UCI over
gossipd seems capable of bignum.
mircea_popescu: anyway. should be fun to see how this plays out once
gossipd.
trinque: atop
gossipd I think the *entire* "this website" thing goes, replaced by "I would like the thing identified by hash ..., do my friends have it?"
trinque: whole thing is broken until
gossipd-year-0
mircea_popescu: the correct pill to all of this being, of course,
gossipd.
PeterL: could relay messages from one
gossipd node to another
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah, so 'private key' is purely 'station key' - i guess like in latest
gossipd discussion
Framedragger: need to minimize energy expenditure at $job. "go home tired" sort of case, it's sad. i'd like to, e.g., among other matters (incl mkj log etc of course), write a very initial very to-be-criticized
gossipd for udp/ip, using (kill me now) python twisted. i guess many live like this, savouring free time, with personal projects falling behind. [i rant today, because exhaustion + coffee infusion => wee bit psychedelic]
mircea_popescu: ah also : re "encryption" : we CAN use the eliza involved in
gossipd spec (anyone actually did this or just some quick napkin work and then forgot about ?) to eliza the actual emissions.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: so that's the thing, maybe prototyping
gossipd designs over usual packet-switched internet is not even worth it?
Framedragger: one side-effect from the above: it may therefore be that as one approaches the
gossipd model / state of affairs, cooperation > minmax-style competition
mircea_popescu: you notice
gossipd as specified is not related to implementation yes ?
trinque: the trouble of not choosing your
gossipd-node peerings wisely
mircea_popescu: you realise that the
gossipd model with markov chains is probably the one source of the singularity
mircea_popescu: yeah, by now it's becoming evident that
gossipd is to be delivered with a config file and a VERY LONG helpfile.
trinque: commands-over-
gossipd *entirely* replaces the www, and there will eventually be UI for that.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-13: [22:22:28] <pete_dushenski> frankly, it'd be swell as hell if mp and alf continued this debate in the comments section there - a la
gossipd thread model - and then we'd have something to look back on weeks, months, or years from now.
pete_dushenski: frankly, it'd be swell as hell if mp and alf continued this debate in the comments section there - a la
gossipd thread model - and then we'd have something to look back on weeks, months, or years from now.
Framedragger: imho one should not start prototyping
gossipd on tcp due to the whole stateful nature of tcp. it would make things *appear* to be so much easier - implicit packet ordering and stream control, etc. - and when things eventually need changed it's gonna suck00r bigtime
Framedragger: asciilifeform: right. which is not a super strange thing to require anyway imho; this may be required when IP is dissected for
gossipd purposes, anyway. (sure, ideally the whole thing should be (eventually) ditched.
trinque: freenode adding its 2 bitcents to the
gossipd discussion.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-13 08:11 mircea_popescu: trinque asciilifeform & everyone : without detracting from the more important
gossipd spec work, im thinking of making a bot spec. it'd require bots to answer in pm to help, help json and help sexpr. comments/ideas ?
mircea_popescu: trinque asciilifeform & everyone : without detracting from the more important
gossipd spec work, im thinking of making a bot spec. it'd require bots to answer in pm to help, help json and help sexpr. comments/ideas ?
☟︎ trinque: then later we're on
gossipd and "online" doesn't mean anything