▁▁▁▁⏐︎▁ 8437
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758839 << asciilifeform did a bit of survey of the sw spectrum ( where he lives , but also elsewhere, via helpful public toilet ip-streamed receivers. ) plenty of digital ???? in'ere. incl. in places where none 'ought', Officially, to be. but 1) could just as easily be usg 2) it's all, definitionally, carriered signal, or asciilifeform would never have learned of it ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 23:04 mircea_popescu: my original thought was "can we do something like the tits drip but for sw enthusiasts instead ?" ; alf pointed out thatr well, carrierless issue.
asciilifeform: but observation is that plenty of folx are, i suspect, already 'pirating'
asciilifeform: the usg polizei prioritize the voice pirates, because they compete directly with the usg 'music' monopoly
asciilifeform: the problem with voice pirates, any and all who have ever at any point lived, is that they are reddit.
asciilifeform: i suspect that not 1 could follow, e.g., the apeloyee noise floor thread.
asciilifeform: or even suspect why he oughta. ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758834 << it is not clear to me why the current scheme ( leaving aside the idiocies of unix diff/patch, in particular the file moves thing ) is not satisfactory. i dun subscribe to the 'force beauty through mechanism' school of thought. it is the job of the patch author to make it behave acceptably in the target vtree, ~before~ releasing. and failures are of the author, not of the mechanicals. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 23:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << especially in the light of 1. move/rename 2. edit double-patch method this seems more and more like the right thing ; but then again what to do of regrinds ? regrind should ideally be "one patch out of many"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758809 << i gotta ask : why ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:06 l0de: to get viewers of my show interested in their political goals
asciilifeform: let's say every homo redditus alive -- suddenly interested. then WHAT? what's gained, other than a great mass of meat that now gotta be put somewhere far from the reactor rods ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758788 >> 'The founder also promised that in addition to the common practice of crediting BTC holders with equivalent balances of the new coin (B2X), they would also receive “a proportional number of Satoshi Nakamoto’s Bitcoins as a reward for their commitment to progress.”' << lol!! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:41 shinohai: http://archive.is/RCrU9
shinohai: Socialism at it's finest right here.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758789 << ben_vulpes if you look at phf's patch tree graphical viewer, you will realize how asciilifeform solved this problem ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 ben_vulpes: phf: this exposes another problem: in ideal vtronics it is an illegal operation to press to multiple leaves at the same tree level, which is the only way to have a codebase against which to create a makefiles-type patch that ties multiple patches together
asciilifeform: ( it was , naturally, by having , at least in the early history, the tree from which each of the 'sibling' patches was produced, on account of having produced'em ) .
asciilifeform: but you can replicate same effect by pressing by the press rules, and then copying by hand.
asciilifeform: which, in the whole picture, does not come close to topping the list of the hardest labours of a trb experimenter
asciilifeform: a v user is expected to do ~almost all~ of his manipulations, via manual file management.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758781 << this only oughta be done in 2 situations -- 'releases' , as discussed by mod6 et al ; and to avoid fuckuppy as seen in orig shiva patch, where there was a logical dependence , but not a vtronic one , b/w shiva-part1 and -part2 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:36 ben_vulpes: this still leaves me in the pickle of producing a vpatch from a press to a that won't actually descend linearly from a without touching a file, and adding "this line necessary to ensure this vpatch descends from a and not genesis"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << this'd eat away substantially at the human-readability of the vpatch. which imho is a key property. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
asciilifeform: i should not need to look for a meta-document (with own sig, presumably) to know which group of patchons constitutes e.g. 'asciilifeform_dns_thermonyukyoolar_kleansing' .
asciilifeform: i would like everybody who is itching to change the way v fundamentally works, to sit down and think about why we ain't using 'git' etc.
asciilifeform: every time think of a possible change : think, does this take it in the direction of heathendom ? can it still make a patch like http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks , where it is hammer-in-your-face-obvious to the reader that every single fucking line does ?
asciilifeform: and how big will be the vtron ? mine was <400 lines. imho this is worth something. and every feature added, comes at a cost.
asciilifeform: *what every
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:31 mircea_popescu: imo "tree" MUST be linear.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. it is already inescapably linear. asciilifeform half-expected that the kakoschism would produce a long-playing split of the trb universe, but neverhappened. not every possible thing, happens... )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758770 << this is not unlike poking out one of your eyes to save on eyeglasses cost. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:22 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
asciilifeform: i ~like~ that it is clear what parts of a whole were changed, and what -- left alone.
asciilifeform: what is with this eagerness to pointlessly blunt the knife. i dunget it !
MTW: back
MTW: [16:55:48] <+trinque> danielpbarron: your boy MTW all set?
MTW: yep
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ( trinque ? ) what ~concrete~ operation on trb tree did v-as-it-nao-exists keep you from easily carrying out ? i'd like to see ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised... ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 20:29 mircea_popescu just dumped a whole sack of coal on teh grill, teh girls happily cleanning up a grosse of pleurotus... if anyone needs me ima be at teh rancho bbqing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758743 << this historically worked CONSIDERABLY better than 'let's throw the reddit toilet into reverse gear and see what crawls out of the pipe' ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 19:48 mircea_popescu: more practically, voice will be acquired via introduction by lord, ie, court presentation.
asciilifeform: in other noose, zoolag with 'aggression' : walked from 484621 to 495973 in ~60 hrs.
asciilifeform: which is roughly 4x the typical ( thing's been floundering since late august ) rate.
asciilifeform: in other arcana, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051&cpage=1#comment-18448 .
asciilifeform: ^ can anybody suggest a working variant ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758681 << if there existed anything like a market in (reasonably recent) miners -- they'd already be installed at the plant, in place of those gigantic resistors . ( and iirc there was a mircea_popescu thread, involving e.g. fish ponds ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 18:15 ben_vulpes: and in other profitable mining strategies: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/business/energy-environment/germany-electricity-negative-prices.html
asciilifeform finally ate l0g.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758859 << gotta get SOME filtering process in place though ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:03 asciilifeform: or even suspect why he oughta.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758864 << you engage in a category error. you don't know what's in the box BEFORE opening the box. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:06 asciilifeform: let's say every homo redditus alive -- suddenly interested. then WHAT? what's gained, other than a great mass of meat that now gotta be put somewhere far from the reactor rods
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758883 << sure. in the sense blockchain is frayed rope, this also. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758894 << portobello not pleurotus anyway. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758901 << what's the problem with a "wasted" FZ anyway ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:34 asciilifeform: ^ can anybody suggest a working variant ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe the correct approach re the l0de thing would be something like a simulcast interview. you do interviews l0de ?
mircea_popescu: !!up l0de
deedbot: l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!key l0de
deedbot: Not registered.
mircea_popescu: if you register a key you can self-voice don't have to keep doing this voicing thing
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15627.96, vol: 14963.98271799 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15685.0, vol: 64040.84715043 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15811.4, vol: 3687.11992386 | Volume-weighted last average: 15680.3140104
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless. << Ah, gets BTC once returns years later and has less sense and more ideas ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:22 danielpbarron: wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: a sense of confort, the common woman's mindeater.
BingoBoingo: Hence the spankings and vacuum cleaner tube
BingoBoingo: Anyways thinking on the noob roughing up earlier, could be a side effect of tranquility overdose. Gotta torture betas.
mircea_popescu: take it ezzy.
BingoBoingo: as per http://trilema.com/2016/a-complete-theory-of-politics/
BingoBoingo: But will see what esta semana brings
BingoBoingo: Will probably start upping the blog frequency to let some more vemon out
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ftr, .6 out of 1.3 is more like 45^
BingoBoingo: Ah, I did the math the other way, Gracias
mircea_popescu: anyway, personally launched lb+ "polvoras" ie fireworks here.
mircea_popescu: damned thing was the size of a god damned depth charge
mircea_popescu: 20bux in the chinoshop
BingoBoingo: Nice
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758907 << the reason engineering is even possible , is that it is not necessary to open ~every~ box. sometimes can form quite accurate picture without spending whole life opening boxes, eating every rotten egg top to bottom etc ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:45 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758864 << you engage in a category error. you don't know what's in the box BEFORE opening the box.
BingoBoingo: Eh, give it 10 years and everything Republican will be inconel while the last USG trinkets come in Chinese potmetal
BingoBoingo: Makes engineering physical things easier
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758913 << it's not the wasted 8kbit or whatnot ( though on e.g. fpga, that's real waste that you can take to the bank...) but the ~ugliness~ ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758901 << what's the problem with a "wasted" FZ anyway
asciilifeform: ffa is, among other things, an experiment with minimizing theugly.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758909 << if vtronic software is the same frayed rope, no one can ever modularize within the same v-tree. this may be a feature. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:46 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758883 << sure. in the sense blockchain is frayed rope, this also.
trinque: it again runs into the unix idiocy of "file", though, because file does sometimes mean module, sometimes means subcomponent of module.
trinque: in either case, what does asciilifeform think of the ritual of "add comment to unrelated file to merge paths", not symptomatic of a problem?
asciilifeform: trinque: i actually put a good bit of thought into the vtronic shape of ffa, while rewriting it ( current-day ffa , observe, is a rewrite, largely by hand, of the previous )
asciilifeform: trinque: it is only a problem if people do it unthinkingly, without understanding when to, when not to, and why
trinque: answer could be "trb was fucked from birth, let us not allow backflow into V"
asciilifeform: ^
trinque: so then, when things get so modular that you have frayed rope, author makes clean separation, as V has told him he has distinct items.
asciilifeform: shiva series was imho great example of 'coarse error in pilotage' re this thread
trinque notes that this comes up within days of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-21#1756072 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-21 17:38 mircea_popescu: anyway, continuing the trinque discussion, it seems entirely unavoidable that trb will become 3 things : a wallet node, optimized for pumping out local signed tx ; a block node, optimized for keeping the blockchain, getting blocks, no mempool nonsense ; and a spy node, optimized to keeping track of the lies and nonsense flowing through the relay network (mempool, timing nodes, what have you).
asciilifeform: asciilifeform introduced the schemetron 1st, and only 2nd the glue in trb, and they were not automagically v-linked
asciilifeform: that was a case when 'put in a comment to align vtronics and semantics' would have been The Right Thing
trinque: what is the meaning of the hashes in a vpatch?
trinque: should someone pressing think he has a coherent whole after pressing any patch? if not why?
asciilifeform: vpatch is meaningless without its ancestry
asciilifeform: down to genesis.
asciilifeform: and yes every patch oughta stand as a leaf, pressable to .
asciilifeform: hence 'coarse error of pilotage' in re shiva
trinque: only way to make a 3rd improvement rely on two distinct improvements in past is to put cruft in both. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( btw is there an engl. equiv of that term ? i'd like to learn it )
trinque: if not http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758770 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:22 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'd go as far as to say that what you're observing is a defect in cpp, not v.
trinque: to my mind the hash is currently putting too narrow a constraint on the context within which the current patch is to be applied, where we could broaden the context at no detrimental, and possibly beneficial cost
asciilifeform: semantic linkage in prog lang oughta align with v. not vice versa.
trinque: asciilifeform: is possible, but deserves to be in the logs
asciilifeform: trinque: if you have concrete algo to align these -- i'm all ears
asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did ☟︎
trinque tends many fires, but knows he owes a few posts
asciilifeform: and especially this one, v that understands entity introductions / uses, semantic linkage aligned with v-flow ... i'd like to see it
asciilifeform: picture a kind of 'multiverse ada', where you dun call foo(bar), but instead foo:somepatchid(bar:somepatchid) etc, explicitly conforming to 'multiversism'... ☟︎
asciilifeform: or, on other end of the possible, a vtron that somehow understands that a call of foo necessarily depends on the patch that birthed foo... and requires disambiguation only if >1 foo exists in the tree ☟︎
asciilifeform: but this is reaching into the fantastic.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754425 << worth linking again. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:04 asciilifeform: we actually had the ast-diff thread, re phf's lisp diff lament.
asciilifeform: aha, pertains
trinque will put some pen to paper this evening
asciilifeform much looks forward to reading
shinohai: From the twatter lulz mines: http://archive.is/vE3ud
mircea_popescu: lmao fucktard. a) the "pirate party" scam utterly fucking failed, how about addressing THAT ; b) kinda hard to have anyone ditch an empty ship, huh.
mircea_popescu: "hey, aren't you worried your shitcoin will get altcoin'd in the near future ?" "no, i am dog and i don't understand anything. vote me!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758945 << explain what modularize means here ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:41 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758909 << if vtronic software is the same frayed rope, no one can ever modularize within the same v-tree. this may be a feature.
trinque: means for example that db-interaction routines are in one file, network interactions in another.
mircea_popescu: and how can one not modularize ?
trinque: cannot without the 'add comment to files you needed' ritual
trinque: I'm actually writing right now on how the hypertext thing relates
mircea_popescu: let me put it this way, maybe resolves problem : v unpermits a specific kind of hack within the purview of this discussion, wherein one tries to design after the fact. correctly designed items will have the larger bits (by footprint) earlier in the patch tree ; and fray out correctly. github-style nonsensica commonly attempts to discover that "hey, this johnny come lately item should have been an evie-comes-early MODULE, let' ☟︎
mircea_popescu: s hack it backwards in time".
mircea_popescu: v doesn't permit this backwards in time ; and if you run in this situation where johnny needs an experts' sex change to become evvie, it's high fucking time you hand-rewrote your whole steaming pile of crap.
mircea_popescu: now, is this enforcement a problem with v, is the proposition ? or is the aforegoing a misrepresentation of the discussion ?
trinque: this is what I meant actually, by "can't modularize" within same walk of the v tree
trinque: trb's database interactions are properly in a filesystem-implementing walk of graph of human knowledge
mircea_popescu: well, i am kind of a fan of the whole "v doesn't permit you to lie to yourself about having supposedly designed what's utterly an ad-hoc item".
trinque: network in a generic gossipd press path
mircea_popescu: ie it takes a major regrind ?
trinque: in that these are distinct items.
trinque: these aren't "trb" except in shitworld
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong either in principle or in practice with making a correct item as the genesis and then patching in various parts of trb.
mircea_popescu: it's after all what diana_coman is doing for eulora.
mircea_popescu: ie, i don't expect the trb cut as described to have a trb genesis necessariyl, or even probably.
asciilifeform: if it dun have a trb genesis, proving to proverbial martian that it really does have classical 0.5.3 pedigree, goes from trivial to monumentallypainful
trinque: anyhow lemme run at it again. you can't modularize because you have to fake work in a disparate part of the tree to merge
mircea_popescu: so for instance, "genesis a proper db ; then patch in three different branches for the three different types of node envisaged" doesn't seem on the face problematic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i intend to prove no such thing to no such martian.
asciilifeform: then why v at all
mircea_popescu: under the authority of the republic ; not trying to enact selves out of the well threadbare wizard cloak of satoshi.
trinque: asciilifeform: as a carving tool for the graph of knowledge
trinque: doesn't mean you don't wholly remove sections and replace
mircea_popescu: whosoever deeply cares about the historically irrelevant accident of windows-bitcoin-0.1 is more than welcome to diff his own sources of that against tmsr-bitcoin
trinque: proper hypertext system (itself based upon v) provides the talmud commentary thing endlessly
mircea_popescu: relevancy is dearly bought ; man wanted to still be in the genesis of 2017, man should have made proper db calls, proper logs, etc.
mircea_popescu: man did not bother, which can only be rendered as "man told us in no uncertain terms to fuck off", well... the sentiment is mutual.
mircea_popescu: there's no difference i can observe between indiancandy scratching at the door and satoshi scratching at the door. there's a way to get in -- getting in "on their own terms" is not on the table at all.
mircea_popescu: as history ended up unfurling, "let's truncate hash to 10 chars or 20 chars depending" takes one from 2009 to some portion of 2018. better than nothing ; much less than could have been had, if only.
mircea_popescu: a lesson for all future minds in there.
trinque: back briefly on the frayed rope, what's harmful about naming an antecedent that you didn't edit, but require
mircea_popescu: specifically "do a good job in preference of a bad job, last longer".
mircea_popescu: trinque do you sign it ?
trinque: sure, in the vpatch would be "I require this list of antecedent items, subset S of which I intend to change thus"
mircea_popescu: if you signed it, then you read it. what matters what you edited ? moar of the same http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-05#1746388 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 13:27 mircea_popescu: no but see, we use different terminology. i do not assign anything to "code written". the source of code, to my eyes, is he in the wot who has read it.
trinque: right, so if we could do this, name unchanged antecedents that are required, could merge A's log patch and B's db patch in C's subsequent patch without having to manually edit A's or B's
trinque: takes what constitutes context for the patch and puts it in the hand of the operator
mircea_popescu: in preference of regrinding the item ?
trinque: I don't see that regrinding solves it
mircea_popescu: why not ?
trinque: current V requires that a file actually got edited to be an antecedent, but C editing B's work does not mean he's discarding A's, and A regrinding his patch means editing something edited in C to get in
trinque: because the hashes are hashes of touched files
mircea_popescu: let's make a working model here.
mircea_popescu: so suppose lord X makes tree A : A1->A2->A3->A4 are patches, delivering some kind of utility we don't care to specify.
mircea_popescu: now suppose lord Y comes along, and similarily makes B : B1->B2->B3->B4.
mircea_popescu: then along comes lord Z, and this lord Z observes that if he used B3 and instead of B4 installed C4 on the same top, he'd get a wholly different but entirely useful to him item. so he makes this.
mircea_popescu: at this moment, if lord K observes that he could use the tree of X up to A2 and the tree of Y up to A3 ~together~ he could install D4 on this pile and similarily to Z produce a different still useful item.
mircea_popescu: toghether so far ?
trinque: following.
trinque: how did he do that merge?
mircea_popescu: now, the v doctrine as it stands right now, both on logs and actual precedent, at least as far as i understand it (but this is vacuous both as a representation and as a history, as most important questions haven't yet been seriously tested) -- is that Z is right to simply sign a patch on B-genesis ;
trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3 ☟︎
mircea_popescu: whereas K would be wrong to attempt same, and instead should regrind a whole new genesis, call it D, even if it is made up of the reunion of the As and Bs he uses.
mircea_popescu: is this contentious ?
trinque: why prefer this to being capable to merge?
mircea_popescu: the burden where it belongs -- why permit merges ?
mircea_popescu: what i mean by http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758994 is specifically that i suspect the ONLY reason one might wish to merge is that one failed to design the item he's hacking. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 03:43 mircea_popescu: let me put it this way, maybe resolves problem : v unpermits a specific kind of hack within the purview of this discussion, wherein one tries to design after the fact. correctly designed items will have the larger bits (by footprint) earlier in the patch tree ; and fray out correctly. github-style nonsensica commonly attempts to discover that "hey, this johnny come lately item should have been an evie-comes-early MODULE, let'
mircea_popescu: is there a different reason ?
trinque: hm. I may be learning something here, so bear with me.
trinque: as I cannot put a definition to merge that is not "destroyed vertex on this graph, because it was by my lights wrong, and created a new one"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759045 << correct, misspelled. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:02 trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3
mircea_popescu: trinque which is a valid thing to do, but NOT if one wishes to at the same timeeschew regrinding/genesising
mircea_popescu: because why.
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated lets-suck-our-own-cocks-we-utterly-deserve-it : consider that the whole l0de thing started because someone from here checked out a SPAMMED item. the fuctard/pantsuit "engineers" in name only in EVERY OTHER fucking channel ~think~ themselves all open-minded and intelligent and whatever, yet i can make a very obviously correct and banal prediction - they wouldn't have followed it, nor in any case escalated and
mircea_popescu: so on. because "it's spam" and that means "it shouldn't be read" and they actually have a consensus on this, which they idiotically but universally misrepresent as somehow different from any other cultish behaviour, such as believing "racism" or "global warming" or "witchcraft" are things.
mircea_popescu: somehow the voice model makes spam such a rarity in #trilema, people actually have the mental vigour to evaluate it!
trinque: specifically what people have been doing when "regrinding" is adding comments to unrelated files and thus including their patch in the tree.
mircea_popescu: whereas the pantsuit psychotic cleaving, where ~some kinds~ of spam are spam (ostensibly because they came from russian hackers as per their bayesian filters ?) whereas some other kinds of spam magicaloly "aren't spam" somehow, because pravda said it, or some "transgender" schmuck said it, or whatever.
mircea_popescu: trinque there's an ambiguity here i'm possibly responsible for though not intended : to "regrind", ie to take a pile of patches and make them into one single patch ; as opposed to re-genesis, which is what happened with eg mpi.
trinque: that is what I mean by a merge, and has the same result.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758965 << this is exactly what's discussed in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758702 : only way to recover code in a heretic patch (ie, one you're not pressing upon) is to literally lift it and include it. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:52 trinque: only way to make a 3rd improvement rely on two distinct improvements in past is to put cruft in both.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 18:26 mircea_popescu: so as the reconciler, you get to pick which of ~either~ a ~or~ b to count in your considered oppinion as the republican and which as the heretic.
mircea_popescu: if the patch tree goes a1->a2->a3/a3` your position is now to choose which of a3 or a3` counts, and which doesn't count. the discarded one may be scavenged for useful content, but it will never be a proper patch.
mircea_popescu: because the tree will continue and NOT upon it.
mircea_popescu: (this results in an immediate reimplementation of eg's linus torvald's linux codebase management, except properly and per protocol rather than ad-hoc and in a manner nobody can explain or meaningfully defend)
trinque: yes, but the method of inclusion by diddling unrelated file is frivolous and less meaningful than explicitly denoting the relationship
mircea_popescu: there's still a disconnect because i don't understand what the hell you mean.
trinque: which is where I got to "concatenate whole cppwad and hash that" as that's your cpp program anyway.
ben_vulpes: a3 and a3' can touch a disjoint set of files and never be depended upon by an a4 without mutating unrelated files to ensure dependency is properly codified.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't matter which files they touch. a4 will build upon one of them, and then a5 on a4, and the unbuild upon one is left as a "fray" on the rope.
trinque: "I edited the networking code and added better logging statements which requires the better logging code on fray, but I didn't edit the logging code."
mircea_popescu: ok
ben_vulpes: so then for a3' to be an a4, it must touch an unrelated file in a3, forever crufting up the codebase with v artifacts.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh it finally dawned on me what this is about. sorry it takes so long.
ben_vulpes snaps keyboard, retires, drowns children, shoots self
ben_vulpes: great
ben_vulpes: that only took a day
trinque: poar poar keyboard
mircea_popescu: so the idea is, you got up to a2, which consists of files F1... Fi ; now one patch call it a3 touches file Fj, and another patch call it a3` touches file Fk
mircea_popescu: the ~only way to establish a lineage among these two so a3` is properly a4 is if the patch is spuriously modified to add a "hey v sucks" comment in Fj
trinque: totally, if I have to edit something to name it as antecedent
mircea_popescu: because otherwise, touching entirely different filesets, their precedence can not currently be established as per extant v
ben_vulpes: aha
ben_vulpes relinks http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758590 for everyone to reread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-25 22:56 ben_vulpes: the specifics of this case is that increase_aggression_levels touches *only* net.cpp and excise_hash_truncations touches a whole lotta stuff but *not* net.cpp
mircea_popescu: hey, i spent most of the intervening day revelring! i have circumstrances!
mircea_popescu: anyway, and the proposed fix for this is to actually add a hash for the whole filebase in each patch ?
ben_vulpes: moreover i want to bring up another overlooked point which is that it is illegal to press a tree with these two patches side by side
trinque is only recently not a walking solution of wine and nog
trinque: mircea_popescu: yep, concatenate every single item in the path diff processed, use *that* hash as antecedent and that recalculated as expected.
mircea_popescu: trinque kitten trying to get into the backseat so i can play with her tits ever so briefly kissed my new suit pant's leg, now i have a typically indicative white spot on it. tbh i knida like the look of it.
mircea_popescu: trinque you need the file hashes per file though.
trinque: loller
mircea_popescu: how about a convention whereby all new genesises must contain a manifest.genesis file, which file will be constantly patched on each patchj, no exceptions, by adding a line which reads : "This is patch #x and the codebase hash is blabla". ☟︎
mircea_popescu: this has the advantage that you can readily understand what any press is made of by looking in root.
ben_vulpes: hash of the patched codebase including the patched manifest with hash of patched codebase in it?
trinque: orobother
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no, except .genesis :D
ben_vulpes: well then it's out of band, unsigned
mircea_popescu: no, it's signed. it simply is not used in the one spot where the codebase hash is calculated.
trinque: manifest can be the patch header nearly as is
mircea_popescu: trinque just about.
trinque: "let it be known that there are these files, with these hashes" "I have changed these; their hashes are now ..."
mircea_popescu: anyway, this'll need moar discussions, i'm not specifiying anything on dec 26th.
trinque: and yet, I can see the entire thing from the other perspective still, that cpp is broken, trb itself not a single concept but a mud, etc
trinque: aha
mircea_popescu: trinque gotta force emergence of sanity through some sort of rational process.
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, we rebuild africa, "sonny we sat here and marveled at this mud for 955 generations"
mircea_popescu: phf asciilifeform diana_coman & others awake ^
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758974 << very much so ; and especially on a blog. there's utterly nothing wrong with being wrong, and discover it over time, especially if gracious about it. not like you sign the damned things, nor like the distinction isn't very fucking clear a a matter of public policy. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:58 asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did
ben_vulpes: it'll need codebasehashprepatch and codebasehashpostpatch i think
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes conceivably. why ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758978 << waaay ahead of the wake, wildman! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 02:03 asciilifeform: or, on other end of the possible, a vtron that somehow understands that a call of foo necessarily depends on the patch that birthed foo... and requires disambiguation only if >1 foo exists in the tree
mircea_popescu: flying cities first.
ben_vulpes: (it's an urbit, and presumably others crackpottery)
ben_vulpes: how is a4 to indicate that it needs both a3 and a3' otherwise?
mircea_popescu: no such both. a3` is to be a4, your a4 to be a5.
ben_vulpes: putting the codebasehash in headers doesn't work then, as there is no 'file that will always be touched' that is a part of v to participate in the toposort
mircea_popescu: genesis.manifest ☟︎
ben_vulpes: okay, let's work it
ben_vulpes: i'll have to doodle, cannot do this live
mircea_popescu: np
trinque: hm. the manifest also gives you a place to name blobs.
trinque probably at a point to digest also
trinque: but specifically, blobs not included. "and you will need the debian 2002 iso; go find"
trinque: ^ cuntoo direly wants this
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
mircea_popescu envisaged the genesis.manifest as wholly mechanical item, just a patch-per-line count of patches, no space to adlib.
trinque: my cuntoo installer script requires some what, 500mb of wads of other items that are not text, or useless.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: okay, i geddit. do it as the first step of vdiff, so the mutation shows up
mircea_popescu: right
ben_vulpes: question then becomes how to get the patchtitle into .manifest
mircea_popescu: title ?
trinque: why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang. ☟︎
ben_vulpes: oh you said "patch # and the codebase hash is..."
ben_vulpes: comedy option: vpatch names are now the hash of the resulting codebase
mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ? ☟︎
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: no need
trinque: can have a tool to edit it sure, but then that's the file that's being edited no matter what else is edited, and there's a coherent history based primarily upon a list denoting what's considered a thing at time of patch
mircea_popescu: trinque arbitrary-content manifests will become a mess of random.
trinque: if an automatic manifest comprised of hashes of all items in project, it reduces to the $concatHashBefore and $concatHashAfter
mircea_popescu: yes ; was just a place to put it really.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: let me know if your aggression patch was enough to stay at the tip of the chain, as it wasn't for my node. ☟︎
trinque: ben_vulpes: huh, meanwhile node.deedbot.org is topped up without aggression and without 50400 setvernum.
ben_vulpes: stormy, with a chance of packeting
ben_vulpes: gonna have to revert and watch, or provision a mess of boxen
mircea_popescu: aaand in other humanities : a. j. ayer was once in the livingroom of one fernando sanchez on west 57th st, hanging out with a buncha young hussies/models when one girl came arunnin' complaining that her friend was being assaulted in the bedroom. ayer went in, where he found mike tyson atop an obscure south london model. when the (at the time 70yo) oxford professor asked him to quit it, mike tyson wanted to know if he knows wh ☟︎
mircea_popescu: o the fuck he is!!! ie, the world's heavyweight champion. ayer explained that he's the ex wykeham professor of logic, and since they're both pre-eminent in their respective fields, how about they indulge in discourse rather than intercourse. oddly enough tyson accepted, and naomi campbell slipped out -- apparently undamaged enough by the experience to actually do those not-even-terrible shots with madonna. ☟︎
mircea_popescu taking off on a little trip, cya all manana.
shinohai: Bon Voyage mircea_popescu .... enjoy!
shinohai: lulzmining: https://imgur.com/Fo8rZQi
shinohai: !~blocks
jhvh1: shinohai: 501273
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15700.09, vol: 14030.97103622 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15699.0, vol: 49838.33077808 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15916.9, vol: 3761.92367122 | Volume-weighted last average: 15711.3466183
BingoBoingo: Ah, such a gloriously obvious pattern emerges. Waterfalls when the banks are closed. Turns out the speed of the crashing is limited to a somewhat sane pace by the difficulty of getting rid of non-ecu fiat takens
BingoBoingo: Later today still more intense language and cultural immersion scheduled.
BingoBoingo: The accountant is giving me the expectation the the process of transforming my self into a business will compelete this week allowing bank access to follow soon after.
BingoBoingo very much enjoying the Lode lulz
diana_coman: !!key esthlos
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/EDB93AD2CAB28398010B46D025C71657FDA71DC2.asc
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759152 << not up to 'tip' yet. it did walk 3000+ blox in the night, however. which before patch sometimes took week+. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 05:36 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: let me know if your aggression patch was enough to stay at the tip of the chain, as it wasn't for my node.
asciilifeform: the old behaviour was indefensibly insane, wtf, why is boot time 'special', for fuck's sake.
asciilifeform: as for nodes at the 'tip', the path of chinesium through layers of prb is a lottery, and i suspect that attempting to measure the effect of a trb patch on said behaviour is doomed to astrologize over noise
diana_coman: !!v F86B917C8A985F0F4DEEA86779F31E186369CD2305830051D630044D5969FE5F
deedbot: diana_coman rated esthlos 1 << He seems to really want to learn.
diana_coman: !!seen esthlos
deedbot: 2017/12/22 02:03:16 <esthlos> BingoBoingo: yes, I think it's time for that
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al : i think it is worth elaborating what it means when saying 'my node is behind N blox'. what it means, if spoken properly, is that you know of some node, somewhere, that appears to have moarblox than yours. focus should be on 'did my node ask it for nextblock? what, if anything, did it answer? why ?' rather than the quite uselessly unspecific 'mah nodez are behind!111' ☟︎
asciilifeform: if what is meant is 'i looked on shitchain.info and saw a higher number than from my getinfo' should SAY that.
asciilifeform: ... and also say what happened when you try and plug yer node into this or that 'un-behind' one.
asciilifeform: if, alternatively, it meant 'my block height hasn't moved for a week', again should be specific, SAY that, and post yer log
asciilifeform: so that questions like 'did it even have net access for that week', to 'has it ASKED anyone for the next block, or just sat there with mouth open? ' and 'did anyone ANSWER, when asked, or just shat forth mempool crapola and bastards 50 blox ahead' can be answered.
asciilifeform: i get it, in the 'organic' system that is a live p2p net, proper controlled experiments are quite impossible. this however does NOT mean that one oughta freely give in to urge to climb back up the tree, becoming a monkey again, and think in voodoo criteria. even if the circumstances heavily encourage this , by failing to reward rational thought ( see mircea_popescu's thread with the italian fishermen !! , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-
asciilifeform: 12-02#1745723 ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: grrrrrrrr http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-02#1745723 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-02 22:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the sea is rich ; but the fisherman's stuck playing a loser game.
asciilifeform: don't be the fisherman who, say, 'i washed my hands after shitting and that day caught no fish, i think i'ma not ever again wash hands' etc.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom, http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=7724#comment-1912925
asciilifeform: in other lulzy backlinx from asciilifeform's www, http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2944&p=57778#p57778 << 6502 enthusiasts , presumably some were not awake in the '80s-'90s , try to rederive carry-bit formula. d00d links asciilifeform's. which is hilarious because on what, do you suppose, asciilifeform originally studied...
asciilifeform: http://www.worldtruth.mx/mathematics/link-id_34145/ << pinoys neversleep(tm)(r)
asciilifeform shakes out last crumbs from spam trap, bolts it back into place
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf plox to snarf: 1) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch2_logicals.vpatch.peterl.sig 2) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch3_shifts.vpatch.peterl.sig
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf plox to snarf: 3) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch4_ffacalc.vpatch.peterl.sig . ty
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: congrats to PeterL, the first (and currently only) ch4 graduate.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759185 << i sometimes wonder if there's some clever way to link back split posts (i mean in cases where urls are lost, perhaps by looking at cases where 250 byte message, followed by same person within ~~<3s or somesuch) ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 15:57 asciilifeform: 12-02#1745723 )
asciilifeform: phf: imho more correct pill would be to patch e.g. znc. or better still, the client, to warn of splits
asciilifeform: elaborately diddling logs is not The Right Thing. for one thing, it will cause logtrons to fall out of sync.
asciilifeform: ( with each other, and with naive logs that everybody keeps on own hdd )
phf: well, i'm thinking illumination, which has been sop for btcbase, but yes, since split happens on client anyway (i'm using ircii right now, and it annoyingly doesn't warn OR split)
phf: the other thing that i wanted to do is add xref for those inline quotes `phf: asciilifeform: grrrrr ... << kek` that people like to do
asciilifeform: oohyea the worst of the worst, will neither warn nor split, they swallow
asciilifeform: silently.
asciilifeform: specifically thinking of the crapple ones (e.g. 'palaver')
asciilifeform: somehow, on their planet this is considered acceptable. ☟︎
phf: i suspect ircii simply predates usability. back when men counted each character, because bell telephone company metered bauds ☟︎
asciilifeform: dunno, all of the artifacts i recall from those days, made it easier for operator to avoid this accidental bankruptcy , not harder.
phf: ircii questions are also by the way impossible to search for. no way to tell either google or ddg to not be helpful and also mirc, irssi, etc. ☟︎
asciilifeform: this type of 'helpfulness' is pestilential nao
asciilifeform: 'did you mean to search for 'lipstick' instead?? we're gonna search for lipstick instead!'
phf: i blame wolfram
asciilifeform: long pre-dates wolframism
phf: j'accuse...!
asciilifeform: wolfram surely deserves whipping post regardless. ( he is to be counted, imho, right up there with the greatest american charlatans, with josephsmith, edison, gates, et al )
asciilifeform: ( see http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-09#1094257 and many elsewheres ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-04-09 21:21 ascii_field: anyway, i happen to know more than a reasonable man ought to, about wolframism
phf: early tex papers knuth talks about putting this or that formula into macsyma, but then from some point he fully switches to mathematica. breaks me heart
asciilifeform: hey he also switched to winblowz
asciilifeform: but heart did not break then ? why not? i'm curious
phf: he did? i thought he uses mac, he posted his keyboard layouts
asciilifeform: in all fairness i can't recall how i came to think that he did.
asciilifeform: so perhaps not
phf: he was using unix up until early 2000s, and then switched to mac (i think for old people reasons)
asciilifeform: but gotta say, there is not so much distance left, to winblowz.
asciilifeform: from cook-os.
phf: but to answer the question, i think i don't particularly mind the subtrate. man does computations, i wouldn't be too concerned if he were to switch to ipad even, because he'd still be hand writing algorithms with a certain detachment to the concerns of extras ☟︎
asciilifeform: the interesting bit is that this disconnect, 'can use ipad but still do honest mathematics', doesn't show any serious symptoms of existing
asciilifeform: i'll point out that everything for which knuth is famous, was done before senility and macdows
asciilifeform: ( see also the not wholly-irrelevant http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455456 item ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 04:34 asciilifeform: rmans really got to England my acquaintance of the Cafe Royal would soon have found his painting deteriorating, even if the Gestapo had let him alone. And when the lid is taken off Europe, I believe one of the things that will surprise us will be to find how little worthwhile writing of any kind -- even such things as diaries, for instance -- has been produced in secret under the dictators.'
asciilifeform: i dun see any fundamental reason why it ~could not~ exist. but also dun see any signs that it in fact does.
asciilifeform: iirc knuth showed first sign of fatal weakness when he failed to put up resistance against what the latex people had done.
phf: it's hard to say how much knuth changed over years, without knowing the man, and i don't think "for which knuth is famous" is any kind of measure. he's certainly gotten old, but i think he might also be constituionally incapable of participating in a consensus. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( and i gotta wonder whether lamport himself was an active perpetrator, or passive victim similar to knuth himself, when the 3GB of liquishit began to form ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: given specifically as i do not know the man -- all i'm left with is 'the mathematics for which he was famous'
asciilifeform: which was a going concern in '70s-'80s, while today it is a '70-'80s memory, strictly
asciilifeform: afaik.
asciilifeform: entirely possible that the man's chief sin was simply the failure to find worthy successor. he left tex to the maggots, and the result is exactly the typical result. ( just as e.g. stalin ended up leaving his 'tex' to the maggots, with similar result ) ☟︎
phf: we'll he's a millenarian, he's primarily documenting the fundamental findings of computer science
asciilifeform: the problem of trying to be 'millenarian' with earthling human lifespan...
asciilifeform: !!up BigTexasBingo
deedbot: BigTexasBingo voiced for 30 minutes.
BigTexasBingo: https://youtu.be/wefRJVooXHQ Make Great Great Again pls
phf: well, really, the problem has been discussed here many times, that you can't tmsr without wot. "successor" is just a special case of that, which, again, lacking mechanisms, is likewise lacking
asciilifeform: phf: right. i did not say that his problem was readily solvable. but it remains -- problem.
asciilifeform: at the very least could've emphasized the absence of a successor.
BigTexasBingo: Anyways knuth problem seems insufficient threat of hambre
asciilifeform: BigTexasBingo: expand?
phf: asciilifeform: he did though, by making it very explicit that there can't be a successor.
BigTexasBingo: When I consider what the next right thing is, hambre or the threat thereof provides motivation to not be stupid and Windows
asciilifeform: phf: apparently lamport missed this memo
asciilifeform: BigTexasBingo: to old folx, hunger is not motivator for action, but for depression/death and, often, quisling
asciilifeform: hunger is motivator for the young, who have good battery charge
BigTexasBingo: That's what kids are for
asciilifeform: afaik knuth did not grow any , at least none such that would suffer from the delusion that they are fit to succeed him
BigTexasBingo: Ah
BigTexasBingo: Not much to do then except present carrot/stick/africa trilemma
phf: asciilifeform: well, be that lamport, or someone else, the memo wasn't missed, but made to disappear through consensus. everyone knows that there's only one TeX, but of course "modern" "tex" is latex with luatex engine, etc. etc.
asciilifeform: BigTexasBingo: the art of 'drowning like a gentleman', i.e. to behave honourably and with grace in the face of certain defeat, death, obscurity -- is largely lost in modern folx
asciilifeform: phf: evidently
BigTexasBingo: Perhaps.
BigTexasBingo: Brb, more immersion
phf: knuth managed to do a lot to keep tex what it is, given that he's essentially a pacifist academic. there aren't many other examples (common lisp, ada) where preservation has been taken to this extreme.
asciilifeform: BigTexasBingo: ever seen this photo : https://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/0/6/6/5346660.jpg ?
phf: relatedly, i managed to get latest version (jan 2014) version to produce a dvi out of tex.tex from first principles. i used someone else's port to gnu pascal
asciilifeform: ^ burgomeister of leipzig. apr 20, 1945.
asciilifeform: phf: neato.
phf: i'll definitely document it though, because the process is arcane, and not at all automated. ☟︎
shinohai: !~lookup irccloud.com
jhvh1: shinohai:
asciilifeform: !!up toohigh
deedbot: toohigh voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: in other vintage heathen lulz, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bitcoin apparently.
asciilifeform: no prizes for guessing what ain't in there, lol ☟︎
asciilifeform: !!up l0de
deedbot: l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: hmm, dis ircii keeps losing connection and then not telling me anything. this like some girlfriend shit
asciilifeform: lol
shinohai: xD
lobbes: <asciilifeform> [19:42:10] in other vintage heathen lulz, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bitcoin apparently. << "Before disappearing from any involvement in bitcoin, Nakamoto in a sense handed over the reins to developer Gavin Andresen" lol, didjaknow?
lobbes: but so it goes, those on that ship will 'unhappen' into their watery grave
ben_vulpes: !!up punto
deedbot: punto voiced for 30 minutes.