log
mircea_popescu: as i said, i can see this reading ; but it is entirely not what the text says.
mircea_popescu: what, fellow could not have used his language to say what he meant, i am to reconstruct the dinosaur out of half tooth ?
asciilifeform wonders if mircea_popescu's reading is equally martian to, e.g., phf , as to asciilifeform
asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu lacks the '#includes'
phf: it is, hence my comment about "ponedelnik"
asciilifeform: aha!!
mircea_popescu: well, so it's martian, happens. not like it's mandatory or anything ; but might be informative. or not.
asciilifeform: it slipped by me, ah
asciilifeform: but phf has it , yes
phf: but there's a point there, which is not necessarily about the man, but about the author. the selling forbes part, which i think is true. bulk of su intelligentsia went full "progressive" after the collapse
asciilifeform: they also went, and to this day are, where the food bowl is.
asciilifeform: like street animals.
mircea_popescu: the other direct avenue, of course, is to say "text was a lot better as author submitted it, before forbes"ru" chiseled it into visible shape". which for all i know might even be true,
asciilifeform: and like in any other, for that matter, country.
mircea_popescu: god knows nobody has YET written a piece for the usg faux news outlets that survived braindamaging at time of packaging (and some truly eminent examples documented by various parties)
asciilifeform: i dun even see this supposed forbes-massage.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so then there's no substance to your disagreement, nor is the reading martian after all ?!
asciilifeform: from asciilifeform's lens it looks entirely like what i would have written myself, about this man, if i were closer to $subject.
mircea_popescu: really ?!
asciilifeform: really.
mircea_popescu: well now i wanna see this. pretend i'm dead and let's see three paragraphs.
asciilifeform: nao for all i know this was done specifically to make asciilifeform et al think that 'ru forbes' is a thing.
asciilifeform realizes he ain't any good at obit
mircea_popescu: but you spoke like one who had considered the matter of writing obits quite well ?!
asciilifeform: try an' live a bit longer, folx!11
asciilifeform: apparently i'ma 'chukcha-reader, not writer'
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to say "if i were writing it i'd have written the same" when you wrote a few and considered how you'd write even more. but on the nude... ?
mircea_popescu: am i actually the only one to have written any obituaries, incidentally ?
asciilifeform: let's revise, 'i'd've like to have written the same.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote one for mccarthy
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=498 << subj.
mircea_popescu: it should perhaps be pointed out that while things like grocery lists, love letters, blog articles, ransom notes at all one might "should" write, it is the obituary which stands alone among all the literary forms as the only piece man must, eventually but absolutely MUST write.
asciilifeform won't disagree.
asciilifeform: ^ even includes link to another Troo Sov. 'Did Not Sell Soap But Starved While Making Worthwhile Things' (tm) d00d
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how come your above item fails to point out the obvious, "he was dedicated to the supremacy of white man, and his enslavement of the entire world and nature itself to his own tastes and inclinations" ?
asciilifeform: imho it did not need pointing, any moar than 2+2=4
asciilifeform: i did not , then, have pygmy readers.
asciilifeform: afaik.
asciilifeform: prolly still dont
mircea_popescu: but "Мы все когда-то были такими. Мы." did ?
asciilifeform: this Мы has that brotherhood-of-civilized-men baked into it.
mircea_popescu: how come the arcane "you're missing the includes" need not be mentioned in one piece but was mentioned in the other and this gives you no pause in the "that's how i'd have done" ?
mircea_popescu: you evidently did not do the same ?
asciilifeform: sorta how when asciilifeform switches on his console in the morning, he does not think 'but what will cockroaches think'
asciilifeform: it just dun enter me head.
mircea_popescu: you understand statement is the first process in the dissolution of taboo and the de-fanging of belief ?
mircea_popescu: one item is stated ; the other item is not stated. does this belie anything about the relative situations of beliefs ?
asciilifeform: right, i've nuffin against russel&whitehead killing 8kg of tree to show how 1+1 makes 2
asciilifeform: for that matter, what's ffa, lol
asciilifeform: but will point out that most mathematical works do not reprint r&w's 1+1 ...
asciilifeform: they dunneed to.
asciilifeform rereading oldies, e.g. his response to a circa-2011 gabriel_laddel , http://www.loper-os.org/?p=498&cpage=1#comment-1812
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759898 << in a sane gossiptron, nobody'd be keeping bastard blocks around to begin with, and the problem would not even be formulatable, 'what do you mean, out of order, everybody's got an ordered array of blocks, some people simply longer one than others, let's all visit'em'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 22:16 mircea_popescu: works ok for eg torrents, where all data is needed once in no particular order, but blockchain is not torrent.
asciilifeform: the intrinsic difficulty of a trbtron's job is more or less 100% in dealing-with-prb.
asciilifeform: prb is a bug (tm)(r) !!
asciilifeform: ( and , consider, if mining were not also a bug, who would waste any time attempting to converse with prbtrons ? )
asciilifeform: and a not-insignificant chunk of the work one sees in http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable , had to happen on account of 'and we still have to talk to prb somehow...'
asciilifeform: ( in particular the orphanages amputations. good chunk of bandwidth is TO THIS. DAY. wasted , by prbtrons throwing their liquishit at trbtron )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759889 << i had this notion that he happened by reading the l0gz, not asciilifeform's www. but could be wrong.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 22:11 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759720 << nah, apeloyee character also from there iirc.
asciilifeform: in other noose, zoolag has 21 peers, and has been at the bleeding tip of the spear continuously ( at least through the lens of asciilifeform's hand-cranked observatory gear) since getting there.
mod6: cool
asciilifeform: nao, if we reintroduce checkpoints ( SANE checkpoints : i.e. keccak-of-whole-block-bitwise, rather than merkleism and sha2; and pgp-signed config eaten at boot ) we can have nodes that sync from empty hdd to full in <1day ...
shinohai: ^
asciilifeform: ( because they don't be sitting for 30sec to 6min per block grunting ecdsa )
asciilifeform: *won't be
asciilifeform: theoretically could even have a 'actually do the full-bore-verifications in background AFTER sync' knob.
asciilifeform: imho this is aesthetically displeasing but inevitable, eventually it'll be this or copying disks, sync-from-empty-space will be impractical in human timeframe
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760097 << if doing that, correct thing is to justr copy over the official-chain☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 00:36 asciilifeform: ( because they don't be sitting for 30sec to 6min per block grunting ecdsa )
asciilifeform: right but really oughta formalize it, rather than ad-hoc
mircea_popescu: not so sure.
asciilifeform: and let there be such a thing as , e.g., viral-payload-node-that-still-gets-correct-blox-but-dun-need-to-carry-200GB
asciilifeform: incidentally at one time asciilifeform made and signed a block hash manifest. but cannot find in the logz...
asciilifeform: where is it.
asciilifeform: was it a dream..?
mircea_popescu: o shit there it is, navrozov moment!
mircea_popescu: i was looking for this the other day.
asciilifeform: i will also add, it is not wholly useless to ~watch~ who is sending over Troo Blox and who -- somethingleses
asciilifeform: *somethingelses
asciilifeform: and for that, want to have TrooManifest.
mircea_popescu: true
asciilifeform: and yes i grasp that this is a kind of usurpation. but given http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759658, !☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 16:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform republic has strength to enforce dunnit ?
asciilifeform: oh hah, while digging, found https://archive.is/gB5hg << >> http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-07#1123345 , entirely-unrelated archaeological item that somebody-or-other had asked for some time this year...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-05-07 00:09 asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/0M8QV5T.txt << signed manifest (by me)
mircea_popescu: let us rescue some piece into the logs : ugh
mircea_popescu: this isn't fucking it.
asciilifeform: definitely not
mircea_popescu: where the fuck is that piece commenting on how soviet citizens all sooner or later wake up to the disney quality of their state ?
asciilifeform: hmmm
asciilifeform: !#s volokh
a111: 7 results for "volokh", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=volokh
asciilifeform: iirc it was him
mircea_popescu: hm
mircea_popescu: i thought it was an actualy russian.
asciilifeform: he was
mircea_popescu: at washington post ?
asciilifeform: ( emphasis on past tense )
asciilifeform: iirc it is his younger brother who is a major-league pantsuitist nao
asciilifeform: 'not shakespeare, the other shakespeare'
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/Et3G << that volokh.
asciilifeform: (not the desired piece tho, yet...)
asciilifeform: oh hah it was the brother : http://volokh.com/2010/04/30/on-a-bus-in-kiev/
asciilifeform: ^ mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: possibly this is it.
asciilifeform: written, apparently, before d00d went quisling.
asciilifeform: ( at one point there were a 'volokh brothers' www, and fairly respectable imho . )
asciilifeform: ( in re checkpoints, pertinent thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-28#1180510 and i was quite certain that some time then i posted hashes... )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-28 19:14 mircea_popescu: the entire idea of what we are building here is NODE HIERARCHY.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-29#1180868 << hey ben_vulpes , does yer box do this ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-29 02:31 asciilifeform: incidentally, anybody who wants can now easily serve http://yourthing/blocks/x
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-29#1180935 << did i only ~think~ of it, but did not do..?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-29 02:56 asciilifeform: i sorta want to start doing this thing where we for blocks 0 ... n, sha512sum block_n | gpg ...
asciilifeform: >>>> http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-29#1180989 <<<< ding☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-29 04:51 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.loper-os.org/pub/turdsums/readme_s.txt http://www.loper-os.org/pub/turdsums/sums.txt.gz http://www.loper-os.org/pub/turdsums/sums.txt.gz.sig
asciilifeform: here they are.
asciilifeform: i.e. 'We have now the sha512 checksums of all blocks loaded by yours truly from mircea_popescu's machine on June 28 - 29, 2015. This is posted here as a permanent record in light of a certain conversation [2] concerning possible shitgnomatic shenanigans.'
esthlos: phf: a little birdie told me you are working on a diff replacement. have you made significant progress?
phf: esthlos: got gnudiff down to 6149 loc from 300407, added shasum to it, as of now it can do http://archive.is/5WxUZ
phf: i took a little break to put it into CWEB so i can print it and read it (cutting process was mostly mechanic, so now i need to actually grok some of the things it does), but that turned out to be a pita
esthlos: 300K loc????
phf: well 200k, rest is whitespace and comments
esthlos: fwiw I read McIlroy's paper and would be willing to implement it _transparently_, if there's interest
phf: original figure, i believe was wc -l on everything, i refined the loc mesasure
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/binblocks/0.bin
asciilifeform: ooh neat
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes did this already exist, or new today
ben_vulpes: they're not all there, as that's the directory they get dumped into after mimisbrunnr is asked for them the first time
ben_vulpes: symlink is new as of today
asciilifeform: neato
phf: esthlos: what do you mean by transparently?
esthlos: phf: vaguely, that the code maps to the actual problem with no extraneous complexity, in an easily readable way
phf: aah, hmm
esthlos: the program should be a good substitute for reading the paper directly
phf: well, the context of what i'm trying to do is in the logs. specifically mcilroy diffing implementation is not necessarily the problem (relevant bits of gnudiff are reducable to maybe 500-1000 loc)
phf: what i'm trying to do is not so much a rewrite, as first an ascii style cut of relevant bits, to preserve backwards compatability with current patches, and then augmentation to support various operations that were discussed in logs, that are more about file management than they are about diffing
phf: what you have on top of original paper is unified diff format and the handling of multiple files in a single patch. (that's where you run into the bulk of extra code; things like sorting directory is simply unpleasant to do in C)
phf: this follows ascii's pattern of trying to bend existing tools to our needs, before we know enough to do a greenfield rewrite. there's a lot of ideas floating around what v is supposed to do. a clean rewrite of mcilroy could serve as a basis for further work, but you should perhaps follow discussion in the logs on the subject to get the full scope of the problem
esthlos: phf: alright, I will have to read up. my practice v implementation will be in CL, and I was thinking of implementing mcilroy for educational purposes. if such an implementation sounds useful, let me know
phf: please do, it would be useful as a reference, but also for me specifically: btcbase.org/patch is written in common lisp, but it can only eat vpatches, not spit them out, so a mcilroy would be a solid addition
phf: http://btcbase.org/patches that is
esthlos: excellent. also, I feel your pain. every day I write in C, I swear I lose an iq point
phf: that would be a very gruesome science fiction narrative, if that was actually the case. a kind of strugatsky's roadside picnic :>
esthlos: it seems specifically designed to reduce the intelligence of the programmer to what a manager can understand
phf: but i actually really want to learn to spit out elegant C like knuth, djb or rob pike
phf: i mean, if you read norvig's python snippets you can clearly see they are written by a very experienced lispers. you literally never see python like that in the wild, but yet there it is.
esthlos: elegant C exists, but the limits of the language the complexity it can handle without exploding into incomprehensibility.
esthlos: *caps the complexity
esthlos: certainly I can't write elegant C tho
esthlos: even with small C projects I start to panic when I realise I don't know how it works anymore
phf: i had that experience when i tried implementing an older spec of gossipd. i wrote it in C, actually CWEB, but i wasn't doing literate programming right, and after a while the whole thing became overwhelming.
phf: but then i can also understand the whole "back in my day" sentiment. common lisp certainly lets you write ~very sloppy~ code and get away with it :>
asciilifeform: in other non-news, ben_vulpes yer ircbot thing dun work with znc. for the obvious reason of containing magicstring-expectation liquishit.
asciilifeform: i wasted hours.
phf: asciilifeform: that would be the case with trinque's bot too
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: thing expects a complicated challenge response state machine to happen
asciilifeform: pehbot: help
pehbot: asciilifeform: I am PehBot. See also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051 . My Width is currently fixed to 256 and Height to 32.
asciilifeform: pehbot: .2.2+[=]#
pehbot: asciilifeform: =0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004
asciilifeform: pehbot: _
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 0: Stack Underflow!
asciilifeform: etc.
phf: hah!
asciilifeform: it lives inside a slime atm. i'ma leave it up for a spell, in case anybody wants to play.
mircea_popescu: pretty cool.
asciilifeform: try it
phf: pehbot: .123'#4'#
pehbot: phf: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Stack Underflow!
mircea_popescu: pehbot .2.0-[=]#
mircea_popescu: pehbot: .2.0-[=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002
phf: pehbot: .123'#
pehbot: phf: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Stack Underflow!
mircea_popescu: pehbot: .2.17^[=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000015
phf: ascii: isn't ' a dup?
mircea_popescu: um
mircea_popescu: pehbot: .11![=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000011
asciilifeform: phf: nope.
asciilifeform: it's a swap , phf
mircea_popescu: pehbot: .123456789.987654321*[=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000987654321
asciilifeform: you read ch4 , neh
phf: yeah, i forgot :>
mircea_popescu: pehbot: .123456789.987654321+[=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000AAAAAAAAA
phf: oh it's a swap
mircea_popescu: ahem
mircea_popescu: pehbot: .123456789.987654321-[=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF79BE02468
phf: pehbot: .123"#4#
pehbot: phf: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001230000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001234
mircea_popescu: is this actually correct ?
asciilifeform: in fact it is: it strips newlines
asciilifeform: on output
mircea_popescu: oh oh
asciilifeform: yea this is a draft
mircea_popescu: and F notation for negative ?
asciilifeform: nope
mod6: this is pretty cool lol
asciilifeform: no negatives !!!!
asciilifeform: they dun exist in yer cpu either
asciilifeform: integer arithm
mircea_popescu: mircea_popescu: =FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF79BE02468 <
asciilifeform: pehbot: ..1-#
pehbot: asciilifeform: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
asciilifeform: ^ consider.
asciilifeform: just like yer cpu.
mircea_popescu: shouldn't it eggog ?
asciilifeform: no.
phf: penbot: .~
asciilifeform: this is fundamental. it's finitefield arithm.
phf: pehbot: .~
pehbot: phf:
mircea_popescu: shouldn't it eggog on .. also ?
asciilifeform: no, why ?
phf: pehbot: .~#
pehbot: phf: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
mircea_popescu: because .. is not .0.
asciilifeform: i can tell who read ch4 and who not!111
asciilifeform: read ch4 folx.
phf: pehbot: Q
pehbot: phf:
phf: pehbot: .2.2+
pehbot: phf:
phf: err
phf: pehbot: .2.2+#
pehbot: phf: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004
phf: pehbot: .1.2.3.4.5Q
pehbot: phf: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000050000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
phf: this is cool :>
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/pehbot.jpg << for posterity.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760138 << absolutely not it, no.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 00:54 asciilifeform: possibly this is it.
phf: asciilifeform: i like the . trick by the way, is there prior art to it?
asciilifeform: phf: which trick
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am not going to take responsibility for your not reading the connection routines. it's plain as day the thing expects magic strings.
ben_vulpes: when i booted one somehow i did not waste hours.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: somehow didn't click, at first, the depth to which it was a kludge, lol
phf: well, . puts a zero and the 1-9A-F mutates the top, so you don't have to have state in the parser
asciilifeform: i'ma have to make a znctronic clone
asciilifeform: phf: i came up with it in 2016 when wrote the orig, unpublished mpitronic 'p'
asciilifeform: ( ffacalc, in case anyone has illusions , is not p. not yet in ch4 anyway ! )
ben_vulpes: freenode is the kludge; im not going to sink time into making *tronic bot that doesn't do auth itself because freenode doesn't like your host.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes:fair'nuff
phf: i feel like you chould email it to chuck moore, he'll get a kick out of it "saves 25 bits on my greenarray cluster!"
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu is willing to bet chuck moore is too dumb to figure this out.
asciilifeform: pehbot: .0{[foo]}{[bar]}
pehbot: asciilifeform: bar
asciilifeform: pehbot: .1{[foo]}{[bar]}
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo
mircea_popescu: email in whatevever manner you please.
asciilifeform: pehbot: .1.2##
pehbot: asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: pehbot: .1.2'##
pehbot: asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002
phf: though come to think of it, in colorforth it'll make things more expensive (since now each digit basically costs a header-and-a-word's-worth)
asciilifeform: apologies to folx reading l0g, barfing...
mircea_popescu: they'll live.
asciilifeform: i dun expect pehbot to become perma-resident
phf: didn't we have a candi session!
mod6: i kinda like this thing, and while your loper posts are fresh, i'd like it hang for a bit.
asciilifeform: pehbot: .1{[foo]}{ .0{[nested]}{[loops]}_ [work in p] }
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo
asciilifeform: pehbot: .0{[foo]}{ .0{[nested]}{[loops]}_ [work in p] }
pehbot: asciilifeform: loopswork in p
asciilifeform: pehbot: .0{[foo]}{ .1{[nested]}{[loops]}_ [work in p] }
pehbot: asciilifeform: nestedwork in p
asciilifeform: etc.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760156 << certainly.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 01:44 esthlos: fwiw I read McIlroy's paper and would be willing to implement it _transparently_, if there's interest
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform other than the wrong control sequence / your utter ignoring of that whole mechanism, the bot is compliant, spits out one line per command, can sit forever.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: atm it uses speak-when-voiced-and-spoken-to trigger
asciilifeform: can make it whateveryalike
asciilifeform: let's eggog 1moar:
asciilifeform: pehbot: ................................
pehbot: asciilifeform:
asciilifeform: pehbot: .................................
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 32: Stack Overflow!
mircea_popescu: sure, i'll be happy to look up what the thing should be in preference of your doing it. lessee.
mircea_popescu: !A asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: works out well.
asciilifeform: lesseee:
phf: mircea_popescu: is there any reason there's no right shift in p? or there's some way to do it with what's there?
phf: err, in calc rather
asciilifeform: !A [foo]
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: done.
asciilifeform: phf: ch5!!
mircea_popescu: pehbot: [not yet]
mircea_popescu: o hey. nice.
asciilifeform: !A [not yet]
pehbot: asciilifeform: not yet
mircea_popescu: cool. ty.
mircea_popescu: phf i dun think there is any fundamental reason no
phf: cause you can do a ghetto left shift with 000 :>
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski << add pehbot to the list plox.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, i thought he's got some minimalist tendencies, like left shift is done with a bunch of 0's and right shift is done with a combination of twig and rock
asciilifeform: !A [☭☭☭☭☭☭☭some actual text ☭☭☭☭☭]
pehbot: asciilifeform: some actual text
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform !A help would be nice once you get around to it.
asciilifeform: !A help
pehbot: asciilifeform: I am PehBot. See also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051 . My Width is currently fixed to 256 and Height to 32.
phf: !A [eg: ].1"#000#
pehbot: phf: eg: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000
phf: !A [or rather ].1"#[ ]000#
pehbot: phf: or rather 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000
asciilifeform: phf: i'ma tell you a seekrit : it'll be R and L, ( 2 - 1 ) in forthological notation
phf: yeah, that makes sense
asciilifeform: mega-surprise
asciilifeform: !A [this prints (but this is a comment) some text]
pehbot: asciilifeform: this prints (but this is a comment) some text
asciilifeform: ah lol!
asciilifeform: !A [this prints some text] (but this is a comment)
pehbot: asciilifeform: this prints some text
asciilifeform did this deliberately, and then forgot -- but this is correct precedence
mircea_popescu: cool deal.
asciilifeform: !A (the point of [someshit] is to output valid pcode like) [.1.2+#[=]]
pehbot: asciilifeform: .1.2+#[=]
asciilifeform: !A .1.2+#[=]
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003=
mircea_popescu: and is it getting updated in step with the ffa publishings ?
asciilifeform: !A ..1-O
pehbot: asciilifeform:
asciilifeform: err
asciilifeform: !A ..1-O#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: !A ..0-O#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: of course.
mircea_popescu: nice. will make a great tool i expect, can reference bot in examples etc.
mircea_popescu: integration ftw.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: !A .~#
pehbot: asciilifeform: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
asciilifeform: !A .A.B.0U#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000A
asciilifeform: !A .A.B.1U#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000B
asciilifeform: !A .2.1^#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003
asciilifeform: !A .3.1^#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002
mircea_popescu: !A .F00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000A.F00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000B-[=]#
pehbot: mircea_popescu: =FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
mircea_popescu: is it also named for REN TV ?
asciilifeform: 'Q' is pretty useless in the bot, given what happens to whitespaces. i'ma have to adjust the filter.
asciilifeform: what's 'ren tv'
mircea_popescu: some tv station
asciilifeform: never heard of it
asciilifeform: !A [[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]
pehbot: asciilifeform: [[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]
asciilifeform: !A [[]]
pehbot: asciilifeform: []
mod6: :]
asciilifeform: !A [[]]]
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Mismatched close-quote bracket !
phf: asciilifeform: hey when you adjust the filters, can you make sure manual spacing still works?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-16#1656734 << delivered!1111☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 01:36 asciilifeform: in other near-term lulz, a 'pbot' is in the worx, so that folx can play with various input->output pairs in-chan
mircea_popescu: made http://trilema.com/2009/iluzionistul-merita-vazut/#selection-49.16-49.32
asciilifeform: phf: issue for 'Q' strictly
mircea_popescu: there;s this whole pile of 2nd world "Cinema" made by 30second ad people.
phf: !A .1.1[foo ]#[=]#
pehbot: phf: foo 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, never saw
phf: test !A .1.1##
mircea_popescu: it's actually not a bad film.
asciilifeform puts on list
mircea_popescu: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .1.2<#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: !A .2.1<#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: !A .1.2>#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: !A .2.1>#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: i think this covers errything.
mircea_popescu: make the width settable btw ?
mircea_popescu: !A help
pehbot: mircea_popescu: I am PehBot. See also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051 . My Width is currently fixed to 256 and Height to 32.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is entirely doable but irc msg bounds makes it not particularly useful
mircea_popescu: well, could be "up to 16k" or somesuch.
asciilifeform: pehbot largely lives as a toy / ch4 exam.
mircea_popescu: whjatever fits a line
mircea_popescu: but sure.
asciilifeform: line dun fit much, is the prob.
ben_vulpes: what i did for candi was to link a paste
mircea_popescu: ^
asciilifeform: but why not see empirically:
asciilifeform: !A help
pehbot: asciilifeform: I am PehBot. See also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051 . My Width is currently fixed to 4096 and Height to 32.
asciilifeform: !A .~#
pehbot: asciilifeform: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
mircea_popescu: the paste idea is pretty good, in that it takes the (unavoidable, btw) line issue away entirely.
phf: the nick is going to make a difference, it's 250 characters by the way
asciilifeform: it's cut
asciilifeform: that's a 1672-bit num
mircea_popescu: yeah it's 4000 max
phf: asciilifeform: yes, but it's going to be shorter for mp
asciilifeform: !A help
pehbot: asciilifeform: I am PehBot. See also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051 . My Width is currently fixed to 256 and Height to 32.
asciilifeform: ^ put back
asciilifeform: phf: aha!!
mircea_popescu: should be good enough as it is anyway
phf: !A [http://btcbase.org/lo][g/2017-12-29#1760407]
asciilifeform: good enuff for what it was madefor.
pehbot: phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760407
mircea_popescu: the advantage of no paste is not needing the click
mircea_popescu: phf nice.
phf: yeah, it's also highlighted as bot on btcbase
asciilifeform: !A [you can put (whatever) [you] {want} here but orc☭gra☭ms get dropped]
pehbot: asciilifeform: you can put (whatever) [you] {want} here but orcgrams get dropped
asciilifeform: !A ([you can put (whatever) [you] {want} here but orc☭gra☭ms get dropped] comments) [take precedence over []]
pehbot: asciilifeform: take precedence over []
asciilifeform: at some point i'ma put the thing on sumthing that ain't a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760270☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 03:38 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/pehbot.jpg << for posterity.
asciilifeform: for nao, will leave it up for another hr or so in case anyone wants to play.
mircea_popescu: inferior lisp lmao
asciilifeform: slimologicalterm.
mircea_popescu: btw, you are aware the canticle is just history-of-cluny with the serials (and most of the good stuff) shaved off ?
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
mircea_popescu: kk
mircea_popescu: "what if the northern part of new world was actually important and like, events happened here and shit ?~!?!?"
mircea_popescu: the ~only preoccupation of us aspiring writers since day 0
asciilifeform: presumably the folx who sailed, thought it'd amount to sumthing.
mircea_popescu: not really, they just went for the cunt.
mircea_popescu: "for lucre the briton..."
asciilifeform brb,meat
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not, what is that?
mircea_popescu: phf the barbaric lands were slowly recivilised after the fall of the roman empire. the effort centered around this fortified monastery in gaul, and its satellites
mircea_popescu: (gaul was, in the estimation of the romans themselves, the better part of the empire, which is why most moved there)
phf: oh so it's the history of cluny, rather than "The History of Cluny"
mircea_popescu: i don't follow the distinction ?
phf: one is an accumulation of knowledge on the subject of history in your head, the other one is a written book of that title, that one, if one were so inclined, could track down and read :)
mircea_popescu: ah. sadly, accumulation.
mircea_popescu: anyway, berno was the name of the original leibowitz
mircea_popescu: but if you feel like the reading, about ~any history of the benedictine order in the early history of europe (say 10th and 11th centuries) should prove an informative read.
phf: neat
mircea_popescu: there is A REASON "european civilisation" bla bla, and that reason is the remarkable stability introduced through unlikely means. a sort of humour.
phf: saint asciilifeform right there http://www.uni-muenster.de/imperia/md/images/fruehmittelalter/mon-cl.jpg
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
mircea_popescu: should prolly paste his inferior lisp screencap in that early mac screen.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the important part in the actual history is that the abbey was de facto sovereign ~deliberately~, set up that way by the duke on purpose. i dun recall exactly the us retcon, but it was accidental if memory serves ? which is already a reduction, in my view.
mircea_popescu: still, the whole reason for the (false, by the way) pretense to eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-22#1757073 carried over to this very day was that "the trick worked for cluny", ten centuries ago. and so following.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-22 19:01 mircea_popescu: do they even give out tenures anymore ?
phf: it's not the case for canticle (where it is sort of accidental, in a sense that "everything's so fucked that nobody cares, but when they do we have Electric Light!")
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: in plain terms of the literary quality of the story, this approach seems to me weaker.
phf: but in all the derivative work soveirgnty is deliberate
mircea_popescu: ah ?
mircea_popescu not expert in anglo sf whatsoever.
phf: well, glass bead game is not really derivative, but Anathem that we often mention here with ascii is
mircea_popescu: aite.
mircea_popescu: i expect the way these generally work is, starved copywriter threw some shit together while hungover. since it was bought he put a little more work into it later on.
mircea_popescu: a sorta miller-nin "payability test" if you will.
phf: i sort of assumed (and that was sometimes topic of these derivative works) that mandate doesn't last more then a generation or two
mircea_popescu: what is here meant by mandate ?
phf: erm, never mind, "permission for sovereignty" , heh
mircea_popescu: without dispute it lasted for at least... hm, i think there's ten between berno and peter ?
mircea_popescu: in any case, a good few generations.
mircea_popescu: the item was only formally sacked by the revolution.
phf: that's better track record than templars :>
mircea_popescu: it is.
mircea_popescu: they were major factor in why there even IS a papacy in the first place, though.
mircea_popescu: templars -- not.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman "in next chapter" < add "the"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760175 << musta started way the fuck up there then huh :D☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 02:51 esthlos: excellent. also, I feel your pain. every day I write in C, I swear I lose an iq point
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760177 << funny, im pretty sure this was in the logs. as a naggum quote.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 02:57 esthlos: it seems specifically designed to reduce the intelligence of the programmer to what a manager can understand
mircea_popescu: but, do not give managers a black eye. i for one often can't understand c.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760494 << 'anathem' is prolly the 1 'sf' item written in usa in past 20-30y worth taking home☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 04:32 phf: well, glass bead game is not really derivative, but Anathem that we often mention here with ascii is
asciilifeform: d00d (stephenson) 'got it'. and as i understand it was his 'last hurrah', he went to shit soon after.
asciilifeform: 'anathem' is many things, and one of them is a what-if-naturalphilosophy-had-happened-in-monasteries.
asciilifeform: but it dun really fit in 'sound bite'.
phf: i suspect the spectacular failure of his sword project is what sent him downspiral
asciilifeform: fuqknows
asciilifeform: i swallowed not only 1 but 2 pieces of rubbish from post-anathem stephenson and that was enuff.
asciilifeform: d00d is done.
phf: oh, he wrote something else besides seveneves?
asciilifeform: 'reamde'. but there is rumour that he had 0 to do with the text, let some idjit relative pen it
phf: sounds like a decade update attempt to cryptonomicon
asciilifeform: unrelated, it's an 'airport detective'
asciilifeform: 100% crapolade.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760180 << i'ma confess, i have nfi what is or could be 'elegant c'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 03:02 esthlos: elegant C exists, but the limits of the language the complexity it can handle without exploding into incomprehensibility.
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as maliciously-ugly c. i.e. what koch et al write.
asciilifeform: there is not, however, a meaningful opposite.
asciilifeform: there is a 'non-malicious c', i suppose.
asciilifeform did publish some c, at some point
asciilifeform: i.e. consistently-formatted, using 0 'idiomaticisms' ,
asciilifeform: !#s idiomatic
a111: 36 results for "idiomatic", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=idiomatic
asciilifeform: minimal pointerism, indirectism as a whole.
asciilifeform: but it remains -- c.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760183 << you really ought not to touch c unless you can picture in yer head the asm , when reading it; and vice-versa ( for your particular iron )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 03:05 esthlos: even with small C projects I start to panic when I realise I don't know how it works anymore
asciilifeform: this is not a 'brinism' but quite elementary pons asinorum
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760185 << it is unreasonable to ask ~machine~ to enforce intellectual discipline. machine cannot do this, it's an 'ai-complete' problem.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 03:09 phf: but then i can also understand the whole "back in my day" sentiment. common lisp certainly lets you write ~very sloppy~ code and get away with it :>
asciilifeform: only men, can do it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760156 << why not needleman-wunsch instead ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 01:44 esthlos: fwiw I read McIlroy's paper and would be willing to implement it _transparently_, if there's interest
asciilifeform: !#s needleman
a111: 10 results for "needleman", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=needleman
asciilifeform: ^ n-w lets you specify ~precedence of possible differences~
asciilifeform: e.g. 'spaces muchly less important than printables'
phf: oh yeah, you mentioned this before..
phf: ^ http://sci-hub.la/http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022283670900574
asciilifeform: iirc i even posted coad
mircea_popescu: is "coad" code ?
asciilifeform: yea, but think 'with lower case c'
asciilifeform: i.e snippets
asciilifeform: iirc i posted a battlefield-worn one in cl
asciilifeform: with example in, out
phf: no way
phf: i would've remembered
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596510☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 23:57 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/KAkk0/?raw=true
asciilifeform: >>>>> https://archive.is/jMMqT
asciilifeform: phf: ^
phf: huh!
asciilifeform: it isnt a work of art, but it did work.
phf: ty
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760186 << how do you waste hours on a couple hundred line program☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 03:28 asciilifeform: in other non-news, ben_vulpes yer ircbot thing dun work with znc. for the obvious reason of containing magicstring-expectation liquishit.
trinque: anyhow I wrote it; ben_vulpes added a patch.
asciilifeform: trinque: laugh, but i assumed znc misconfig liquishit
asciilifeform: and chased ~that~
trinque: nickserv is what it is; I didn't invent it
trinque: maybe we're not far from a sane p2p chat implementation
asciilifeform: funny how auth was really an afterthought in irc world
mircea_popescu: and how it's ~useless.
asciilifeform: necessarily !
asciilifeform: afterthoughts dun work so well.
trinque: I admit to having wanted as little irc autism in my head as would make the thing go.
asciilifeform: trinque: orig stimulus for ffa was gossipd's rsa-in-realtime req.
trinque is quite excited at that
asciilifeform: metoo..
mircea_popescu: !!up revnja
deedbot: revnja voiced for 30 minutes.
revnja: thank you kindly
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760508 <- fixed, thanks!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 04:45 mircea_popescu: diana_coman "in next chapter" < add "the"
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760176 <- ahahah, feels like it at times, yes!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 02:57 phf: that would be a very gruesome science fiction narrative, if that was actually the case. a kind of strugatsky's roadside picnic :>
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759930 <- any comments are welcome, as usual☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 23:26 asciilifeform puts ^item on read-conveyor
mod6: asciilifeform: found ~a~ solution: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ypJpa/?raw=true
mod6: will see if I can clean it up a bit more tomorrow.
mod6: ni ni
shinohai: !#s http://archive.is/u3Wdn
a111: 0 results for "http://archive.is/u3Wdn", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2Fu3Wdn
shinohai: stupid wapo
shinohai: !#s https://pmsf.eu/resources/lisp/SHA3.html
a111: 0 results for "https://pmsf.eu/resources/lisp/SHA3.html", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fpmsf.eu%2Fresources%2Flisp%2FSHA3.html
shinohai: archived just in case http://archive.is/6NpOj
shinohai: so far seems to be at least equal to the perl sins that only my confessor, mod6 knows of
shinohai: !!up aegis
deedbot: aegis voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/26/as-it-turns-out-fireworks-do-not-photograph-well-navidad-in-the-land-of-tranquility/#comment-114450 << And a comment
shinohai: New Years gonna be better?
BingoBoingo: We will have to see
shinohai: And no cardboard houses! Does he read trilema?
BingoBoingo: Well, LATAM is a big place
shinohai: !!rate diana_coman 3 too much hard work to list, EuCrypt has helped me tremendously.
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ibfVb/?raw=true
shinohai: !!v 83DBA74607120BBABFCE695D5917F7E27087B08CB5CC7B9D144D4C39D4E64EB3
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of diana_coman from 2 to 3 << too much hard work to list, EuCrypt has helped me tremendously.
diana_coman: cheers shinohai
shinohai: o7
BingoBoingo: And re: keeping up with chaintips - Quite a few big as ships lined up off short waiting for their turn in port.
BingoBoingo: *big ass ships
shinohai: !!rate BingoBoingo 4 For services rendered to tmsr in LATAM in futherance of true isp and the rich documentation of his travails
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/bafd8/?raw=true
BingoBoingo: And it is taking some getting used to going out to the river and not being able to see the other side. And also seeing two way ship traffic with... big ass ships
shinohai: !!v 19EE2D8B89B89D5087635711B3C3239D5C1C4D60D5573565D618CD9F879FF868
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of BingoBoingo from 3 to 4 << For services rendered to tmsr in LATAM in futherance of true isp and the rich documentation of his travails
BingoBoingo: Instead of slow river barges taking away the corn to serve as feedstock for who knows what chemistry
BingoBoingo: And guess who the wops beat in court: "Brothers Vincenzo and Giacomo Barbato named their clothing brand "Steve Jobs" in 2012 after learning that Apple had not trademarked his name. "We did our market research and we noticed that Apple, one of the best known companies in the world, never thought about registering its founder's brand, so we decided to do it," the two told la Repubblica Napoli. The Barbatos designed a logo that resembles
BingoBoingo: Apple's own, choosing the letter "J" with a bite taken out of the side."
BingoBoingo: Also the LISA operating system is supposed to be open sourced soon
shinohai: !!rate danielpbarron 3 #eulora Elder and merchant, operates rare ecu faucet. Bible markup project in #trilema-church
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/lu1PC/?raw=true
shinohai apologizes for the rate spam
shinohai: !!v 685D0D34746C79BF5BF2D0D508688B60D859C2DE35B954FC351CC4CBD50EC370
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of danielpbarron from 2 to 3 << #eulora Elder and merchant, operates rare ecu faucet. Bible markup project in #trilema-church
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759948 <- do you mean the references and substrata?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 23:37 mircea_popescu is also happy at how diana_coman 's code veers towards literate style. you've seen this phf ?
mircea_popescu: no, i mean the comments.
diana_coman: ah; well, key code that one anyway
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 14474.84, vol: 14159.22146288 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 14349.0, vol: 52343.1796784 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 14647.1, vol: 4080.1562319 | Volume-weighted last average: 14391.4763725
BingoBoingo: In other pirate radio vs SOP lulz: https://archive.is/AWcBV "When the agents inquired about the nature of Sidos’ relationship with Mr. Polynice, they asserted that they had not seen him in two years. When the agents asked about the unlicensed transmitter, the Sidos alternately refused to respond or claimed that no radio transmitter had been operated on their property since the 2012 in rem seizure... As had occurred during the Augus
BingoBoingo: t 2015 site visit, the station had been taken off the air when the agents took further field strength measurements immediately after the Sido interview ended."
BingoBoingo: And the trb node weather from my perch appears to have improved substantially with regards to nodes at the chaintip since this weekend.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760601 << "Releases prior to release 1.0.2 had a bug that could lead to input being ignored and hence wrong message digests being calculated for input with repeated calls to sha3-update (see README file for details). Please upgrade as soon as possible, since this bug can lead to unintended collisions in generated message digests." and of course "The library should be portable across nearly a☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 12:03 shinohai: so far seems to be at least equal to the perl sins that only my confessor, mod6 knows of
mircea_popescu: ll ANSI compliant CL implementations with specialized versions tuned for implementations that offer unboxed 64bit arithmetic, unboxed 32bit arithmetic and for implementations with efficient fixnum arithmetic, i.e. requiring fixnums that can represent (unsigned-byte 16)."
mircea_popescu: from "the people who shouldn't have computer access" gallery.
mircea_popescu: "PMSF IT Consulting is proud to announce its acceptance as a member of ASAM e.V.. As a long time user of ASAM standards, like XCP and A2L, we see the ongoing central role of ASAM as a provider for standards in the embedded domain and beyond, with a special focus on automotive applications."
asciilifeform: in other noose : zoolag still on tip-of-the-spear, working pretty great.
mircea_popescu: in case you were wondering who's putting the bugs in your cars of the future.
mircea_popescu: some cocksucker by the name pierre r. mai
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/jimmy-vestvood-amerikan-hero/ << Trilema - Jimmy Vestvood : Amerikan Hero
asciilifeform: diana_coman: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051&cpage=1#comment-18460
asciilifeform: err, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051&cpage=1#comment-18461
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760637 << hilariously, i had previously read the whole thing... on fcc's www. ( they have a public pillory of all citations/fines/complaints/etc )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 14:57 BingoBoingo: In other pirate radio vs SOP lulz: https://archive.is/AWcBV "When the agents inquired about the nature of Sidos’ relationship with Mr. Polynice, they asserted that they had not seen him in two years. When the agents asked about the unlicensed transmitter, the Sidos alternately refused to respond or claimed that no radio transmitter had been operated on their property since the 2012 in rem seizure... As had occurred during the Augus
asciilifeform: apparently arse technica starved for noosefodder
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760640 << would be interesting to see exactly how this 'bug' looked. but currently can't be arsed to unearth the old crud ( where even is it )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 15:30 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760601 << "Releases prior to release 1.0.2 had a bug that could lead to input being ignored and hence wrong message digests being calculated for input with repeated calls to sha3-update (see README file for details). Please upgrade as soon as possible, since this bug can lead to unintended collisions in generated message digests." and of course "The library should be portable across nearly a
asciilifeform: i did read the current item, imho quite ugly
mircea_popescu: i expect.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> apparently arse technica starved for noosefodder << Aha, notice the throwaway blah blah minoritit afterthought!
mircea_popescu: a converse of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760179 ie lisp written by imbeciles on the level of phil daian.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 02:59 phf: i mean, if you read norvig's python snippets you can clearly see they are written by a very experienced lispers. you literally never see python like that in the wild, but yet there it is.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'fortranistic' lisp
asciilifeform: tho in all fairness the unoptimized 'reference' is at least not immediately nauseating ( https://github.com/pmai/sha3/blob/master/keccak-reference.lisp )
asciilifeform: and, shitgnomery aside even, x86-optimized lispolade is ~always~ nauseating to read
asciilifeform: there is not a pill against this; it is why cmachine Must Die
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760642 << the part that was never clear to me is 'if speed of clean lisp is inadequate, why not write whole thing in asm; if adequate -- why commit this war crime'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 15:30 mircea_popescu: ll ANSI compliant CL implementations with specialized versions tuned for implementations that offer unboxed 64bit arithmetic, unboxed 32bit arithmetic and for implementations with efficient fixnum arithmetic, i.e. requiring fixnums that can represent (unsigned-byte 16)."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nibble was a HALF BYTE! and a byte was REGISTER WIDTH. so no, it wasn't customarily 4, it was customarily half of 8 for as long as registers were 8. nibble today should be 32 bits.
mircea_popescu should put this in the very blog in question but plox take out that damned chicken clucking thing.
asciilifeform: consider the approach in ffa. only critical bottlenecks, that soak up 90+% of cycles and create an impractically-slow rsa op , get massaged ~to the extent necessary~ , and without compromising type safety
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a byte is still 8.
mircea_popescu: not in my ideal world ;/
asciilifeform: this is a persistent confusion , byte vs register , in mircea_popescu's head, and will have to be cured
mircea_popescu: a byte is fucking 64 bits in all compliant machinery.
asciilifeform: lol i'm for 11bit bytes then!1
mircea_popescu: for some machines.
asciilifeform: rs232 et al eat 8bit bytes, sadly
asciilifeform: no practical way around it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, i understand why the sins of the flesh make this unavoidable. but it's still fucking wrong god damned it all to heck.
asciilifeform: in that sense binary-logic was the original sin.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform has written on the subj in the past, and will again )
mircea_popescu: and why the fuck would you maintain it in a place which has no need to maintain it. ffa is free from said flesh.
asciilifeform: nope. it relies on binary shifts, and on bitnesses being powers of 2
asciilifeform: makes karatsuba cut cleanly.
asciilifeform: ( abolishing the otherwise inescapable copying and special-cases )
mircea_popescu: but not on "byte" meaning anything other than what it does, which is to say... "how much the machine takes in at a time"
asciilifeform: afaik all of the routines as they stand nao, will work on nontraditional bitnesses of bytes and bytenesses of words
mircea_popescu: i know.
asciilifeform: but not nontraditional arity of bit.
asciilifeform: all of them but the FFA_IO items and the hex_digit thing.
asciilifeform: it also so happens that i do not own a non8bitbyte iron to test on, nor know where to obtain such.
asciilifeform: would have to be emulated, and gcc retargeted...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760654 << fucking annoying this imperial summarization style. "it had a bug" costs as much to say as "it had so and so bug". but nooooo, god forbid anything effectual ever occurs.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 15:35 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760640 << would be interesting to see exactly how this 'bug' looked. but currently can't be arsed to unearth the old crud ( where even is it )
asciilifeform: ( this is prolly doomed to happen in the end. i.e. gotta retarget gnat to a simplified mips or the like, and then run in emulator, verify actual clock cycle counts )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very frankly expect exactly nothing to be done about it ; i'm just bitter and that's all.
shinohai: kek http://archive.is/Og41F
asciilifeform: eggog
asciilifeform: but just as well, loox like rubbish
BingoBoingo: 89909
asciilifeform: srsly shinohai reddit is worse habit than smoking
asciilifeform: by far.
asciilifeform: you ain't ever getting those brain cycles back
BingoBoingo: Srsly, at least smoking provides social cover when you lack other vices
shinohai: why foxx?
asciilifeform: i hear also drives off plague flea
BingoBoingo: AHA, and mosquito
BingoBoingo: And plenty of pretty girls need to know who to ask for a light
mircea_popescu: reading the keccak lisp thing that unpleasant irk becomes inescapably evident : this is just fucking "advanced" rot 13.
mircea_popescu: "here's our list of 13s" "here's our other list of 13s"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: revelation : ALL classic hash algos are .
mircea_popescu: i keep trying to not think so.
asciilifeform: ditto symmetric ciphers ( we already discussed, they are equivalent )
asciilifeform: keccak in fact can be used as cipher without modification ( it dun suffer length-extensions )
mircea_popescu: here, might as well : in case anyone needs magic numbers, for lottery or w/e, you can just use ( 0 36 3 41 18) ( 1 44 10 45 2) (62 6 43 15 61) (28 55 25 21 56) (27 20 39 8 14
mircea_popescu: just as magic as anything else.
asciilifeform: more specifically, you can use it as cipher without modification and without suffering immediate kindermat
asciilifeform: ( unlike e.g. sha2 )
asciilifeform: but to return upstack , if one could design a satisfactory ( somehow! ) hash , it would thereby also necessarily be a satisfactory symm cipher.
asciilifeform: and vice-versa.
asciilifeform: and prng.
asciilifeform: !#s cipher triangle
a111: 0 results for "cipher triangle", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cipher%20triangle
asciilifeform: hm
asciilifeform: could've sworn we had this thread.
BingoBoingo pretty sure thread had, but under what key words...
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621207☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 18:13 asciilifeform: they are sides of the same triangle.
asciilifeform: ^ thread.
asciilifeform: ( or rather, starting here, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621201 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 18:10 asciilifeform: a 'secure prng' is fundamentally THE SAME animal as the 'secure hash' and the 'secure blockcipher'.
BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/26/as-it-turns-out-fireworks-do-not-photograph-well-navidad-in-the-land-of-tranquility/#comment-114452
asciilifeform: this item is the sucking black hole of suction at the heart of all modern cryptohokum
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760692 << they don't want you to LOOK at the 'bug'. elementarily.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 15:47 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760654 << fucking annoying this imperial summarization style. "it had a bug" costs as much to say as "it had so and so bug". but nooooo, god forbid anything effectual ever occurs.
mircea_popescu: fucktards.
asciilifeform: would rather magic it away. like in microshit's ciphered patches. ( i knew folx who made a comfortable living simply by reversing those. )
mircea_popescu: entirely chtonic civilisation, it copied more from the original socialists than just goebbel's radio playlist. it fucking copied the will-to-die, and substantially.
mircea_popescu: what the american aims to is to no longer exist.
asciilifeform: and not to die 'with a bang' driving panzer over untermenschen, either
mircea_popescu: "maybe if i sit really still i cease to be ? no ? how about if i also close eyes ? still ? plug ears as well, how about then ???"
mircea_popescu: no, they want to die quietly and alone in a corner.
asciilifeform: but moar like victorian typhoidal 'nedeflorena' or who was it
mircea_popescu: lol!
mircea_popescu: you get that joke ?
asciilifeform: aha reread recently
mircea_popescu: pretty good
asciilifeform: it was.
asciilifeform: trilema-1armbandit a+++ would roll again
mircea_popescu: you'll ruin my idea of romanian difficulty and i'll end up going "what, you don't get this kindergarten fare?!?!" at poor innocent slavegirls.
asciilifeform: it's not a martian lang or anyffing, not rice kingdom hieroglyph.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo is prolly almost ready to eat it at this point
asciilifeform: relatedly http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-19#1740761 is apparently quite popular, but no meaningful backlink-headerolade, so i have nfi by whom/why☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-19 19:22 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ro_eng_tech.txt http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ro_eng_expr.txt << 313333337 w4r3z
mircea_popescu: (for les autres : defloration is another word for losing one's virginity. the woman's name being lorena, and her disposition deeply pubescent anxiotic (you should know what this is) which is beyond ridiculous in a 40yo not to mention hysterical given the amount of compensatory covers-for-impotence she engages in, pretending entirely without basis to be an actress, poetess and whatnot -- the nedeflorena name immediately clicke
mircea_popescu: d.)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It turns out that Portuguese is making a strong case for third lang
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo once man takes ibovniki, man can not stop at arbitrary count.
mircea_popescu: !#s 0 1 infinity
a111: 13 results for "0 1 infinity", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=0%201%20infinity
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Aha
mircea_popescu: oh no fucking way. this was a leit-motif
asciilifeform: !#s one two three infinity
a111: 1 result for "one two three infinity", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=one%20two%20three%20infinity
asciilifeform: gamow
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-14#1163905☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-14 16:31 mircea_popescu: that's ok, the rule is 0 1 infinity.
mircea_popescu: apparently disused
asciilifeform: traditionally the 3 is in'ere. e.g. 'what three know, the sow knows'
asciilifeform: ( does that exist in english ? )
mircea_popescu: im sure
BingoBoingo: The ordering is more one of prioritizing. No need to stop. At any number of languages, but the focus can shift. As time makes the spanish more comfortable, Portuguese is a natural next point of focus.
asciilifeform: 1 of these days asciilifeform gotta translate maslennikov. the ONLY afaik discussion of The Gaping Black Hole Of Cryptohokum that exists outside of tmsr.
asciilifeform: !#s maslennikov
a111: 19 results for "maslennikov", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=maslennikov
mircea_popescu: doesn't the pet read ru ?
asciilifeform: about as well as i read ro
mircea_popescu: so give her a copy, correct the item she produces and there you go, she got a blog now.
mircea_popescu: speaking of copies, anyone got anathem warez ?
asciilifeform: 1s
asciilifeform: got it here, but it's a html zip
asciilifeform: ( aka 'epub' )
mircea_popescu: can work
asciilifeform: can load OPS/xhtml/contents.xhtml in lynx , i think
mircea_popescu has long despaired of any hope anyone would produce text in some kind of proper format.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can put it through bash grindfer, make it be text.
asciilifeform: it's chapterized
mircea_popescu: cat exists
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/warez/a.epub
mircea_popescu: ty
asciilifeform: ( can unzip like ordinary pkzip , or even view on crappletron etc )
asciilifeform: it's actually why asciilifeform keeps a crappletron
mircea_popescu: the next article title will be "we shall now read anathem", if that wasn't obvious
asciilifeform: lolyes
mircea_popescu: o look, there's a pt07 AND a part07
mircea_popescu: yay for ambiguous
asciilifeform: contents.xhtml
mircea_popescu: a cool.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/NwUJd/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ^ 3133333333337 ascii w4r3z
asciilifeform: you can throw the html.
asciilifeform: ( unless you like flipping to the glossary, stephenson did a bit of lem-like play with language )
mircea_popescu: im set, thanx.
mircea_popescu: please tell me hylaea is not a reference to the fucking futurists
asciilifeform: none of it is much of a reference to anything, save for a coupla old greeks
asciilifeform: this was the d00d's 1 properly original item.
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform's single favourite piece of english 'sf'.
mircea_popescu: "Science fiction author Neal Stephenson has become the "Chief Futurist" of Magic Leap, an augmented reality company"
mircea_popescu: i beg your pardon ?
asciilifeform: he went full tard coupla yrs ago. it was sad.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja know the group im talking of ? "pushkin should be thrown overboard the steamship of modernity" ?
asciilifeform: nope. and i suspect i'll regret finding out.
asciilifeform: just pretend he's dead...
mircea_popescu: Пощёчина общественному вкусу
asciilifeform: really he oughta have fallen victim to a falling turtle after writing 'anathem'.
mircea_popescu: imo the only proper root of 4chan.
asciilifeform: in other noose, ben_vulpes , trinque , ircbot on sbcl 1.0.38-3.el6 : http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/aojeZ/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ^ by all indications, cl-irc is broken by something-or-other in the massive pot-o-liquishit
asciilifeform: ^ triggered by the ircbot-connect invocation .
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A [helloworld]
pehbot: asciilifeform: helloworld
asciilifeform: !!down pehbot
asciilifeform: ^ will hang around, nao.
asciilifeform: ( it dun work with privmsg yet. but otherwise caan use. )
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other recent 'to allcomers' lulz , https://archive.is/3OTat >> '...n the Tesla world as a Model S owner built a cryptocurrency mining rig in his electric car... The idea was suggested in order to use the free access to electricity with the Supercharger network. Technically, if someone is able to draw power from the Tesla to power those mining systems... '
mircea_popescu: o wow, socialism doesn't work in way #5465498758
asciilifeform: sadly working miners are ~unobtainable so it won't become a mass item
asciilifeform: but perhaps sumthingelse... say, aluminum refining..
phf: asciilifeform: i know this one, it's unix!
asciilifeform: ahahahahalol
asciilifeform: onlywinningmoveisnottoplay(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: or am i mixing my 1980solade
phf: asciilifeform: serve event is a cmucl way of tracking streams of every kind (since no threading, repl mainloop is a reactor pattern). sbcl has just lifted the whole thing, but then never really redid the architecture
phf: so that's why you sometimes get an infinite error loop with fd-register somesuch when you abruptly lose connection
asciilifeform: this wasn't an abrupt- anything
phf: right right
asciilifeform: it was a whole majorversion of sbcl that simply won't usocket..
phf: can i fucking finish?
asciilifeform ended up digging up another and replacing
asciilifeform: aha?
phf: so instead of addressing the core machinery, they put these hooks all over the place, where some things are part of serve event, and some are not. anyway, you ran into the fact that 1.0.42 introduced a flag to socket-make-stream :serve-events, which is true by default. it was later changed to false
phf: but usocket probably defensively passes serve-events nil to make sure that "legacy" machinery doesn't kick in, because nobody knows about it, or wants to deal with it
phf: relevant patch https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/6e02a5455aeef5a4642a2334348544c1f19775ad#diff-912df0bf4505a2db68a4b714e475e225R385
asciilifeform: ugh
phf: yo, modern sbcl!
asciilifeform can't wait to tip that particular cement mixer..
phf: if you want all of your compatability layers to work, you are forced to run trunk of everything.
phf: (which is by the way not what i do, i just fucking fix. every. single. fucking. piece. of. quicklisp. packaged. code. i. get. my. hands. on. motherfuckers)
asciilifeform: gotta post these fixes
asciilifeform: or at least the process whereby produced.
phf: it's not added up to coherent whole yet. so far the conclusion is that compatability layers are evil, and that you basically have to maintain own versions of everything that abstracts your lisp implementation details
asciilifeform: of everything -- period
asciilifeform: otherwise you have 'submarine with screen door'.
phf: it would be perhaps worthwhile to triangulate sbcl towards a common deployment platform
phf: and it is submarine with screen doors. it's possible that asdf in vpatches is the door through which the horror comes.
phf: (not to mention what i bring up all the time, that asdf itself is the horror now)
asciilifeform: i expect there'll be plenty of rubbish in the genesis. as there was in trb.
asciilifeform: point is that it becomes removable!
asciilifeform: and naturally no pulling-in of anything , in asdf or other packagetron, that hasn't been vgenesised.
asciilifeform: ( or whole effort is that very same submarine )
phf: one solution could be to, e.g. post cl-irc, but hard coded to a specific sbcl implementation. whoever wants to port it elsewhere (like cmucl or whatever) can just post a #-sbcl #+cmucl vpatch, etc.
phf: (fwiw ircbot is already sbcl specific, since it relies on a bunch of sbcl threading extensions, so pulling compat layer for cl-irc is a waste)
asciilifeform: nao this is so. it prolly oughta use naked sbclism for sockets.
asciilifeform: or even ffiism
ben_vulpes: phf: neat summary, ty
ben_vulpes: i started vendoring swaths of lisp code recently myself
ben_vulpes: while useful in some contexts, once phf said 'asdf is a pig with lipstick', could not unsee.
phf: ben_vulpes: note that older versions of asdf actually work. i've been running 1.369 in my cmucl, and it does require manually updating half of your asdf to remove various later extensions, but it works
phf: 1.369 is 1548 cloc vs. 3.3.1 10789!
asciilifeform: holyfuq
phf: there's actually some extensions that are not necessarily evil (like :email or :author in a defsystem), bulk of fail comes from test-op, that's not supported in old version, but that nobody uses test-op consistently at all
phf: also particularly gendered packages outright put #-asdf3 (error "requires asdf3") and ~usually~ it's because they silently rely on uiop, far's unix compatability layer
phf: fare claims somewhere that he solved a gnarly dependency resolution bug in asdf, but the nature of bug is never revealed, and SAT is never mentioned (i suspect most bugs in asdf would be SAT related)
asciilifeform: sat ??
asciilifeform: as in n-sat ?!
phf: sat as in satisfiability problem
asciilifeform: why is that in there??
asciilifeform: v dun have a sat-solver!!
phf: well, dependency resolution is a SAT problem at its core
phf: and there's probably no formal sat in asdf. i'm saying that bulk of dependency resolution problems would come from sat though
asciilifeform: again observe, v runs without a general satsolver.
asciilifeform: why it -- can, but asdf liquishit - cannot ??
asciilifeform: lemme guess, there are blocking packages ? that can't be used together on 1 system ?!
asciilifeform: i.e. a 'not gate'
phf: v runs with a special case of sat solver. i don't understand which part of "asdf doesn't have a sat solver" and "sat is never mentioned" is not clear. i'm saying that whatever dependency resolution is always a special case of sat. you put some contraints on it (no cirlces, etc.) and then you can have special case solutions.
asciilifeform: lol in this sense an adder is 'specialcase of satsolver'
asciilifeform: errythingis
phf: v also doesn't solve all the problems that asdf attempts to solve (for example compilation dependency)
asciilifeform: i'll bite : how not ?
asciilifeform: if your universe is vtronic, you dun have 'dependencyproblems'. definitionally.
phf: v relies on build systems to actually build
phf: so your entire makefile logic is outside of scope of v
phf: for example one thing that i tried with my lisp workflow is to have the system automatically compile/load touched files in their order of appearance in a v patch. but the order here is explicitly linear, requires fiddling with patch order, and is definitely not how we use it now
phf: also v doesn't recognize state. in a tree A->B pressing to A, then loading, then pressing to B, then loading is different than pressing to B right away and loading the result
phf: obviously not designed for that, but the assumption here then is that you're running a fresh instance for each fresh press, which is suboptimal for a lisp (this particular detail will likewise come up when v is run on an always-on system of any kind, be that a cuntoo or a lispm)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760893 << this is a thing to be eventually fixed.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 19:16 phf: so your entire makefile logic is outside of scope of v
asciilifeform: ( incidentally gprbuild, which is used in ffa, is quite interesting. )
asciilifeform: and to the extent lisps dun play nicely with freshly-pressed instances -- it is the lisps which are broken
asciilifeform: the irreplicable-churning-pot-of-liquishit mentality that always-on items tend to suffer from -- is a disease, will have to be cured.
asciilifeform: *extant
phf: lisps deal with freshly-pressed instances as well as anything else: by doing a clean restart. my point is not lisps, my point is that current solution assumes lack of state and delegates the problem to a non-v-tronic build system
asciilifeform: phf: i was thinking of cures in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758977☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 02:01 asciilifeform: picture a kind of 'multiverse ada', where you dun call foo(bar), but instead foo:somepatchid(bar:somepatchid) etc, explicitly conforming to 'multiversism'...
asciilifeform: i.e. a fully vtronic evaluator
asciilifeform: rather than 'automatic clean starts' crapola
shinohai: Ripple scam overtakes mETH in "market cap" O.o
BingoBoingo: In other news NYC apartment fire that killed 12 being called deadlist since 1992 provinding ample fodder for 9/11 lovers
asciilifeform: in other idiocies, 'you are rightly observing that svg doesn't support word-wrapping directly. however, you might benefit from foreignObject elements serving as a wrapper for xhtml fragments where word-wrapping is available.'
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform , like complete idiot, went and thought... 'i can make a useful diagram! with svg ! which exists!' )
asciilifeform: turns out -- nodice
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760846 << he's impressively informed isn't he.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 17:35 phf: yo, modern sbcl!
mircea_popescu: here's a problem i perceive phf : you could guess about log(n) of my understanding of various things that interest me on the basis of reading trilema ; i could not guess epsilon of thge say your understanding of sbcl on the basis of reading whatever you provide voluntarily. i could glean it from this kind of interaction, but here's what that means : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760839☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 17:32 phf: can i fucking finish?
mircea_popescu: in a sense you convict yourself to ricochet.
mircea_popescu: does this make any sense ?
asciilifeform: sbcl is a pretty interesting example of one of those spiked pits, like e.g. gcc -- items to which there is no practical alternative except 'throw away the comp and build log cabin'. but asciilifeform does not have phf's deep historical view of sbcl/cmucl ; asciilifeform arrived into the spiked pit directly
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760849 << but not like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-22#1756758 ; why not ? cheap entry right there. /me would definitely read phf's fixed lisp code shelf.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 17:36 phf: (which is by the way not what i do, i just fucking fix. every. single. fucking. piece. of. quicklisp. packaged. code. i. get. my. hands. on. motherfuckers)
a111: Logged on 2017-12-22 11:20 diana_coman: for fun: http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/12/21/eucrypt-correcting-mpi-implementation/#comment-1011
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's more, if he gets married deep historical view is in danger of simply going away.
asciilifeform: aha!!
asciilifeform: hence the urgency of 'write!'
mircea_popescu: phf and if you don't share with heathens, make it so !!shelf returns a pile encrypted to my key for instance, nothing wrong with that.
mircea_popescu: "publish" means "form, and fix the form" not necessarily "share with cows".
asciilifeform mutters something re how naggum might still live if he had this
mircea_popescu: indeed.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: bots page updated with pehbot.
asciilifeform: ty pete_dushenski !
mircea_popescu: ty
pete_dushenski: np at all
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i recommend against the hardcoded summary tho,it'll change regularly
asciilifeform: ( with each ch )
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759374 << lookup has been there for a while :)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 02:58 shinohai: ah mircea_popescu lookup has been there a while, but i think i forgot to have pete_dushenski push it to his bots page updates.
asciilifeform: just give it the help text.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: gotcha. just updating that...
asciilifeform: and it ain't !W
asciilifeform: ( mismatched b/w title of section and the chart )
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A help
pehbot: asciilifeform: I am PehBot. See also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051 . My Width is currently fixed to 256 and Height to 32.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski not the "or addressed directly" rider either.
asciilifeform: yeah that dun happen, it was before mircea_popescu made a prefix for it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing wrong with summary as is, so it'll change, still better an idea than a blank.
pete_dushenski: oh ok. fixed.
asciilifeform: i still see 'pehbot – maintained by asciilifeform – call command “!W”'
asciilifeform: which is wrong, that's candi_lustt's prefix
pete_dushenski: fixed now :/
asciilifeform: ty pete_dushenski , looxgood
asciilifeform: can haz link to ffaseries plox ? ( http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 is the metalink )
asciilifeform: stuff it behind the 'Finite Field....' phrase
pete_dushenski: howzitlooknao ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760869 << this sounds suspiciously familiar.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 18:59 phf: ben_vulpes: note that older versions of asdf actually work. i've been running 1.369 in my cmucl, and it does require manually updating half of your asdf to remove various later extensions, but it works
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760873 << you know it's compatible, compatibility, no such thing as compatable.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 19:03 phf: also particularly gendered packages outright put #-asdf3 (error "requires asdf3") and ~usually~ it's because they silently rely on uiop, far's unix compatability layer
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760879 << and what a major advantage this is!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 19:07 asciilifeform: v dun have a sat-solver!!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760889 << oyesitdoes.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 19:14 phf: v also doesn't solve all the problems that asdf attempts to solve (for example compilation dependency)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760894 << why ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 19:18 phf: for example one thing that i tried with my lisp workflow is to have the system automatically compile/load touched files in their order of appearance in a v patch. but the order here is explicitly linear, requires fiddling with patch order, and is definitely not how we use it now
pete_dushenski: !!withdraw 0.1456 1824qTKoHQZghCiQnRsjyCWWPY94yJZC9W
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/O7RgB/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: is the entirety of this fiddling you going "i'm curious how this thing could work/break at the edges?" or is it rather "i wonder how i could run a v tree as an infrastructure node without reboots" ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760903 << rather the current design deproblematizes state altogether (in this sense of state, and problem). hence his comments re "then lisps are broken".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 19:35 phf: lisps deal with freshly-pressed instances as well as anything else: by doing a clean restart. my point is not lisps, my point is that current solution assumes lack of state and delegates the problem to a non-v-tronic build system
mircea_popescu: but from a sustainability pow : eulora server currently restarts weekly ; not necessarily because it absolutely must, but because i deliberately did not want to provide a "continuous" item in this sense.
asciilifeform: the 'holy grail' is items which are demonstrably safe to operate continuously -- i.e. fsa with no wedge states. these are not so easy to achieve; FUCKGOATS is one example
mircea_popescu: i can understand the fascination with "this orrery has been in clickety-clacking continuously since 1625", but let's point out that it relies on a) THIS orrery, as opposed to "constantly changing randomly pile of cogs" and b) it's a discrete mechanism, like the human heart. it takes a break every beat. essentially the problem has been hidden, by these, not resolved.
asciilifeform: ( and 1 of the few readily accessible pieces of digital gear that fit this description , afaik )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform fuckgoats still is THIS orrery, rather than "hotswappable"
asciilifeform: actually you can hotswap the analogue boards
asciilifeform: this is in fact part of uncrating test, recall.
mircea_popescu: but not the controller.
asciilifeform: why not ?
asciilifeform: i do it regularly, when testing'em
asciilifeform: not as if the serial dongle gives a fuck
mircea_popescu: while getting entropy out ?
asciilifeform: well for a short while there ain't any, when nothing plugged in
asciilifeform: but also no faux-entropy
mircea_popescu: THIS orrery. not "some collection of parts".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly.
asciilifeform: 4 parts ( serialdongle, controller, the 2 analogueboards )
asciilifeform: can replace in any order and any subset
mircea_popescu: the point is that item either a) operates continuously, provided it is THIS item, ie, this specific collection of parts or else b) is stopped while beingt serviced, ie having a cog replaced. there's no clock that works while having its cogs switched around.
asciilifeform: in point of fact it dun stop when you pull 1 of 2 analogueboards
mircea_popescu: nor is there such a thing as triple bypass while running a marathon
mircea_popescu: nor is it reasonable thereby to expect "this lisp instance runs while a new press gets pulled in"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phf's observation was re how lisp systems often accumulate GBs of state that takes weeks to re-create programatically
asciilifeform: which is troo . and 'not bug, but feature' and in fact plays poorly with vtronics
asciilifeform: but i still blame the lisps, not v.
mircea_popescu: i thought it was re his difficulties in updating the machinery behind btcbase without downtime
asciilifeform: iirc 1 of the ways he got the thing to stand up reliably was via exactly 'save-lisp-and-die' snapshot.
asciilifeform: but i'll let phf answer the particulars of this.
mircea_popescu: i seem to recall this
asciilifeform brb, meat
mircea_popescu: i also seem to recall he didn't like it for some reason. anyways.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760908 << i know, i went over and pissed in http://trilema.com/2016/the-life-and-times-of-one-phil-daian-aspiring-nigger-apprentice-cocksucker/ 's cereal a little bit this morning.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 20:09 shinohai: Ripple scam overtakes mETH in "market cap" O.o
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-18#1544670 was the last i recall on the topic☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-18 22:53 phf: yes, scp, screen, asdf. i had a v based deployment but i wasn't happy with it, so i'm trying to rethink it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760909 << recall the good old days when the "reddit experts" / pantsuit&allies actually got to burn in warehouses rather than 18sqft ny apartments ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 20:26 BingoBoingo: In other news NYC apartment fire that killed 12 being called deadlist since 1992 provinding ample fodder for 9/11 lovers
mircea_popescu: seems like the pantsuit lost 90% of sqfootage per capita in the past three years, from ~10 to ~1.
ben_vulpes: pfffhaha
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760911 << pre-TeX it for svg ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 20:50 asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform , like complete idiot, went and thought... 'i can make a useful diagram! with svg ! which exists!' )
asciilifeform: svg, funnily enuff, can't do text worth a shit
asciilifeform: uses browser's text renderer, and requires extensive manual fiddling to , e.g., actually span a text with graphic
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-23#1757448 << it just so happens that i saw one in vancouver's gastown neighbourhood last month. not the most tuneful steam whistle and it looks far older than the 40 years of age it actually is, but the plaque did indicate that it was something of a technical innovation. looked like a simplified rube goldberg machine to me.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-23 16:38 shinohai suddenly wonders if pete_dushenski has ever seen those steam-powered clocks that are in Canada ....
pete_dushenski: can't have too many public clocks though. so much the more if they're technically novel.