log
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mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901514 << I'm of the thinking we should move too; however, I've been thinking the same thing all day, 'where?'. Looks like the court is investigating some options for existing networks, as well as considering one of our own. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 18:43 hanbot: http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/ << i'm for moving, seeing no compelling reason to stay. pinging asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes bingoboingo danielpbarron diana_coman lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque for inputs.
mod6: I myself used to run an ircd-hybrid, but that was srsly like 20 years ago. So I'm not sure how much active knowledge I have on the subject, currently. Anyway, whatever or where ever we go, it's just a temporary place until we have gossipd.
mircea_popescu: you wanna try getting one up ?
trinque: this is going to sound wacky, but how married are we to IRC? xmpp federates far easier than IRC.
mod6: I could stand one up somewhere, my time is a bit limited this week. Might have some time this weekend.
trinque: I've run an ejabberd before too, quite familiar.
mod6: For what I can see, I'm not so certain that we're married to IRC, but I suspect that our bots/loggers are a bit more closely wed to the protocol.
mircea_popescu: trinque well, we're "married" in the sense that all extant infrastructure's written against it.
mircea_popescu: does xmpp even exist in deployments anymore ?
trinque: I'll go poking around in public jabber servers and see how lively they are
trinque: in my case, the protocol side of the thing is decoupled from my services such that switching protocols is about a week or two of work.
mircea_popescu: well, irc networks's federating's a five minutes config file settings, to list your ircd among the rest
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901578 << I'll see what I can do about standing up an ircd sometime this week. It'll take a bit to lock down the conf of the thing, but eventually, if all looks good, we should be able to link up our nodes, trinque. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 22:09 trinque: hanbot: just stood it up for the sake of exactly this impending need
mircea_popescu: i happen to think this is a thing they got right (accidentally, and for purely historical reasons).
mircea_popescu will stand up a muscovy server for hanbot too, let no oppinion, no matter how earnestly held or freely expressed, pass unpunished.
trinque: sure, if we're talking about just using own IRC network, trivial. if we're talking about peering into an established net, it'll involve some committee of dipshits assenting
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: so basically the offer for ircnetowkrs is "we're bringing three boxes"
mircea_popescu: trinque yes. and i hold we gotta ask em all.
mircea_popescu: documented dipshittery > presumed dipshittery.
trinque: no disagreement here
mircea_popescu: trinque in your experience what's the bottleneck, ram ? cpu ?
trinque: never had a large IRC server, but can't imagine a lot of state in RAM per user.
mod6: i'll also state that mine was never huge either. had ~2-3 channels, ~20-25 users. the biggest thing I recall was just having enough b/w so peeps stay connected.
mod6 bbl, mmmeat :]
mircea_popescu: you know, to revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901543 -- one could at least learn whether i should provision for ram or cpu!!! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 20:32 diana_coman: learn != reuse code or even tech
BingoBoingo: I have spent a lot of years reading very stupid things, but reading docs to try to distinguish IRC networks today...
BingoBoingo: I feel much dumber and angrier than I did when seeing the news of Freenode retardation
BingoBoingo: But as awful as IRC documentation is the XMPP thing... I tried to read some explanations of what XMPP is and how it works, but the 2004 era buzzwords and "keep updated" stuff is thick
BingoBoingo: <mod6> i'll also state that mine was never huge either. had ~2-3 channels, ~20-25 users. the biggest thing I recall was just having enough b/w so peeps stay connected. << They all want pipe
BingoBoingo: For something named internet RELAY chat... the docs make it seem everyone is afraid of adding new relays. Imagine if the email folks in the 80-90s instead broke to this level of paranoia
mircea_popescu: eventually they did, hence google ended up stuck with it.
BingoBoingo going for a walk to unload this shit from the head
trinque: in my brief dive I have yet to find evidence that anyone on xmpp talks about anything other than xmpp
BingoBoingo: I'm back from the walk. I have an "alfajor oreo" in front of me, and I the retardartion of the cunt snot pile still pisses me off.
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/03/things-that-happened-last-month/ << Bimbo.Club -- Things that happened last month.
spyked: mircea_popescu et al: http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128290
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901621 <-- iirc they already have (too many?) servers residing in ro, might be why they don't accept any new ones ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 23:17 trinque: http://www.routing-com.undernet.org/ << lol, romania specifically banned!
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901666 <-- added this to the list and will prioritize if it becomes an urgent matter ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 23:41 mircea_popescu: fwis, trinque already got one being tortured for the past six months ; depending on other workload mebbe BingoBoingo or spyked feel like putting one up also (but very much do not fall into the tarpit of chasing butterflies, from one to the next and catching none, fellas).
spyked: returning briefly to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901372 : back in the early 2000s, most file transfers in ro were done via local 'dc++' hubs, the largest hosted in uni politehnica of bucharest campus. wasn't all that horrible, with the exception that orcs had no notion of wot, so they were all suprised when police started raiding the dorms (accompanied by "anti-piracy campaign" orchestra, of course) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-11 16:29 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901354 << spyked - i was thinking, 'let's make torrent', then realized that torrent is some (afaik) largely unexplored heathenware, possibly due for a civilized replacement. might be worth expanding on if anyone has free hands.
spyked: (to elaborate: high-speed internet "outside of ro" was accessible mainly through uni pipes until at least cca 2003 or so; in particular in upb, most of the networking infrastructure projects were at the time due to one eduard andrei, meanwhile forgotten by the interwebs)
asciilifeform: 'Welcome to freenode. To protect the network all new connections will be scanned for vulnerabilities' << lol!!
asciilifeform: spyked: seems like the joke is on the folx who shot the shoemaker , who ~maybe~-sent police if he thought you had particular kind of bits on paper , and then spread legs for nato reich, who send police if they think you have ~another~ kind of bits, on yer hdd.. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: spyked that's exactly why, undernet is almost entirely ro-based.
mircea_popescu: who knew that the 50% problem exists in the general!!11
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they shot the shoemaker, ironically enough, because he was excessively like me for their taste. their principal objections, unvoiced but truthfully and authentically reconstructed, were in order that 1) he sent them to do manual labour, in complete disdain of their self-identification ("we're intellectuals!!!") ; 2) he was unimpressed by the rest of their http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/ hallucinatio ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ns, to the degree of not providing them with the requisite aspirational goods to enact the pretense and 3) he was ~critical~. there's even a moment at the "meeting with the writers" where he points out that he's not really taking them seriously, but maybe one day they manage to build an intellectual system that can take his criticism.
mircea_popescu: guy got shot for realism. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: "Tov. Nicolae Ceauşescu: Încă cu scriitorii n-am făcut o şedinţă ca să critic cum ştiu eu. Dar vă pun în vedere că o să ne pregătim pentru aceasta." literally.
mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1PzKG/?raw=true << whole thing, for the curious.
mircea_popescu: the only truthful expression of history is to say nicolae ceausescu was the first mayogender victim.
mircea_popescu: didn't love the hippos for the special and unique snowflake of a woman they really were ~deep~ inside.
mircea_popescu: even MORE ironically, one can quite say this was the face of the opposition. (chick married that dork, hence the double name.) ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901718 << that's exactly my reading of the events. ( and dun fughet to add, he, ohnoez, made'em pay the debt!111 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 15:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they shot the shoemaker, ironically enough, because he was excessively like me for their taste. their principal objections, unvoiced but truthfully and authentically reconstructed, were in order that 1) he sent them to do manual labour, in complete disdain of their self-identification ("we're intellectuals!!!") ; 2) he was unimpressed by the rest of their http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/ hallucinatio
asciilifeform: tov. c was quite unlike mircea_popescu in 1 important way , tho -- he neglected the disease until was unmanageable, was - near as i can tell - pretty soft (vs, e.g., stalin), very little 'prophylactic' depantsuiting in his reign
mircea_popescu: (remarkably pantsuit, the fat orc, btw. synchronicity to a t, including "russian secret services!!!" wank while it was still fashionable in washington, last narrative gasp before teh dnc died.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dood was quite unsophisticated, had this very... well, fundamentally a peasant's worldview, deeply optimistic and over-inclined to fit-in-head. ☟︎
asciilifeform: nowadays any mcd-eater can become this, eh. but as i understand then it took some pull, to wangle the calories
mircea_popescu: the communications breakdown during the ~only almost-meaningful attempt during "trial" is imo relevant. looky : http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/#selection-665.0-665.87
asciilifeform had in fact read the trial log
mircea_popescu: the guy points out that almost all villages got bakers' built. this is factually true, and important -- gotta understand romania is TODAY, and STILL, the one country in europe where 1/3 or so of schools have no running water.
mircea_popescu: when it joined the eu, the % of barnhouses in the eu incresed like 30 fold.
mircea_popescu: so yes, the building of bakers' in ~all villages, so the dorks can have day-old bread rather than week-old bread, is an important point.
mircea_popescu: and to him, this makes sense. "what sort of moron would you have to be, to not understand than 100`000 bakers' for 100`000 places that had no bakers' since aurelian's withdrawal is way the fuck a bigger deal than 5 homos upset because nobody is using the right zhernouns."
mircea_popescu: and sure, it does make sense. but THEY make no sense to him whatsoever.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform dood was quite unsophisticated, had this very... well, fundamentally a peasant's worldview, deeply optimistic and over-inclined to fit-in-head. << Well... "Dallas"
mircea_popescu: and didn't, for 30-odd years.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo right ?
BingoBoingo: The fixation on one piece of outsider media is a thing in the German Peasant tradition
mircea_popescu: so yes, the principal driver behind " very little 'prophylactic' depantsuiting in his reign" (which is factual) was... very little capacity to conceptualize the pantsuitism. because of the EXACT http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901577 thought process (though he's not nearly as elegant in his thinking, nor did he have enough sense to keep a fucking blog, so as to GET this elegant.) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 22:09 asciilifeform: an asciilifeform who had never touched microshit, i suspect, would be a better man than asciilifeform who did..
mircea_popescu: ceausescu who didn't touch pantsuitism was certainly a better deadman than the imaginary one who had.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: through my (admittedly inexpert) lens, d00d loox like archaetypical lion trainer who served up many a cookie but neglected entirely the whip
mircea_popescu: this is not true, plenty of dorks ended up in prison.
mircea_popescu: the problem is -- he tended to imprison the dorks he understood more than the dorks he didn't.
BingoBoingo: Like Franco probably just wanted to ranch and watch the cows, but guild is house with that oil wealth
mircea_popescu: and he systematically didn't understand the ~only set of dorks who belonged in jail, as a sort of public service, for re-realization.
asciilifeform: i suspect he was working from stalin, but not the actual one, but own mental phanto
asciilifeform: m thereof
asciilifeform: who sent to gulag 'for joke'
mircea_popescu: and this because he ~opted not to~ (unawaredly, but just as opted) through the exact process of "this is too stupid to understand". it is too stupid to understand ~deliberately~ and FOR THAT PURPOSE.
mircea_popescu: there's a somewhere in the log /me explains how this all works.
asciilifeform: ( where actual one, sent in '37-'38 mostly folx who were the most disgusting bootlicks, fattest apparatchiks, they continued to send! him! letters! with 'tov. stalin, to whom i remain most loyal servant..' etc )
mircea_popescu: i can see it, "worked for stalin coincidentally, had ceased working by 70s". notwithstanding that the EXACT picture perfect rendition of said bootlick : http://trilema.com/2010/la-moartea-lui-adrian-paunescu/ (a fellow who i declared dead on trilema a week before he actuallty died, ro press "omitted to notice", by the way, a week later, when the "suprising event" occured)
mircea_popescu: to this day i remain most proud of this particular instance, out of all of trilema's time-bending achievements.
mircea_popescu: people even comment "wtf, he's not dead" and shit.
asciilifeform: i gotta bite, an' ask, how is ~that~ bit of magic maintained...? do they have an eliza running, to post as him ? or how else anyone thinks 'not dead'
mircea_popescu: but anyway -- disgustingly fat, yes, pinnacle of asskissing, yes, sent weekly letters "tov. shoemaker, to whom i remain most loyal servant" in prison, yes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he died november 5th. article was oct 30th.
asciilifeform: aa aaaa
mircea_popescu: was retroactived into "oh, he had been sick", but this is both factually untrue and completely unknown at the time. in the sense "obama is president of china" is completely unknown at this time.
asciilifeform: re 'understand' -- loox like c not only managed to avoid 'understand', but also somehow surrounded himself with viziers who ditto ?
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: it is very difficult to surround self with viziers who understand what you don't. those are called co-caesars in rome.
asciilifeform: aint the whole point of a vizier, to handle the 'i can either king or learn c++' problem ?
mircea_popescu: not exactly. there must be a thread, uniting things to the center of the world. if there's no thread, there has to be a change. if the thread's valid but interrupted at center you have to recenter.
asciilifeform: i dun think he had the 'if they aint retarded, they will co-caesar and eventually eat me' problem -- consider pacepa.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do me a favour, let's go through an what-if.
asciilifeform: ( who yes later miami, but spent good, what, 3 decades of a++ work )
asciilifeform listens
mircea_popescu: suppose we're all us, but we're not us in the following sense(s) : a) we're all married, in the sovok style ; b) we all have sons, about g_l's age ; c) it comes to light that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-07#1900877 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-07 23:18 asciilifeform: buncha kids, mostly of local party elite, seekritly sewed themselves some semblance of ss uniform, and raised swastica flag at night on city hall; then marched to cemetery and laid half a tonne of flowers on old white army graves
mircea_popescu: now you tell what would mp do.
asciilifeform: i'd expect it'd be same as what stalin did in this exact case
mircea_popescu: mno, i'm not stalin.
mircea_popescu: we're just a buncha officers yes.
asciilifeform: send the sad sons off to the front, the less braindamaged ones come back, the rest 'die the death of heroes'
asciilifeform: in their stead, appoint to the succession some functional folx
mircea_popescu: mnope.
asciilifeform: then i'm stumped, 1941-45 was my 1 crib sheet re problem
mircea_popescu: a) i would ~ignore~ the sons. you've seen me do it before, yet it's not obvious to you. death of heroes belongs to they showing some promise, why muddy it up. what if i mixed some mud in your cocktail ? i would not insult the heroes-in-baking by this addition.
asciilifeform: well gorby et al ignored, where could've instead sent'em to 'hero' in afghan
asciilifeform: see how it worked for'em ?
mircea_popescu: b) i would deliver ~the wife~, naked other than for being beaten black and blue, straight out of the trunk into the courtyard of her ancestral home, and publicly explain to her father that if i ever hear of any of their intolerable kin he'll hear obituaries.
asciilifeform: ivan iv used this algo
asciilifeform: ended up with vacant throne and coupla decades of kakobreklas
mircea_popescu: it is the correct algo. cut off the lost node and pressure the last conneected node.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform correct algo comes with no guarantee of fitness for particular purpose.
asciilifeform: he ran outta nodes tho, cuz no harem
asciilifeform: afaik that there's the 'hole through which night came'
mircea_popescu: yes well. the word for that is manalone.
mircea_popescu: "chitlins, what do they call single-node trees in the republic ?"
asciilifeform: i gotta agree with mircea_popescu re item -- king with single-engined harem is like boeing on 1 motor
mircea_popescu: but see, one needn't be stalin. officers in question had all they needed, did not apply.
mircea_popescu: also very effectual at quelling the female will-to-spawn. "do you understand what will happen if you make me an idiot ?"
asciilifeform: i still dunget fully why ivan did not enharem. he had all the 'ducks lined up', boiled in oil good % of the folx in any position to constructively object, even ran experiment where half the kingdom was a personal human-hunt reservation, to test.
asciilifeform: the obv. next step, seems , is to actually use that fucking crown
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901730 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 15:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dood was quite unsophisticated, had this very... well, fundamentally a peasant's worldview, deeply optimistic and over-inclined to fit-in-head.
asciilifeform: gotta be
mircea_popescu: "why should i be bothered with a bunch of them". henry also serial-monogamized, rather than make them eat eachj other out.
asciilifeform: tho i must add, unlike shoemaker, ivan was a thinkin' man, spent good % of his life in his (lost to indiana jones warehouse) megalibrary, an' playin' chess etc with courtiers, scheming how to fuck english queen, and so forth
mircea_popescu: comprehending is a draw on mental energy ; comprehending women perhaps the largest ; unschooled orcs perceive this issue whereby the costs mount exponentially and the marginal benefit is nil (you can only fuck one hole at a timwe anyways!!).
mircea_popescu: needless to say, orc thought is dumb.
BingoBoingo: That Xtian thing's a helluva shackle
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: d00d was in a 9000x better pos than e.g. henry viii , to make 'own church, with hookers, an' blackjack' and fuckerryone
mircea_popescu: this is true.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: But he didn't
mircea_popescu: this is also true.
BingoBoingo: And neither did Henry
asciilifeform: it is therefore much moar of a puzzler, why didn't
asciilifeform: recall that ivan was caesaropope
BingoBoingo: Henry simply did a weak XT attack on the church. Did not hang all of the pedotards
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wasn't ivan raised by a regency, in the manner the prince of talleyrand-perigord also describes, "as a vagrant or the poorest of the poor" ?
asciilifeform: henry had to '51%' his church into programmability, ivan -- not, was already in pos to 'from nao on you pray to my left foot'
asciilifeform: regency yes, re the rest i have nfi
asciilifeform: throne at 15.
mircea_popescu: yes, but his mother got poisoned as a little boy, and up until 15 he was... a peasant ?
asciilifeform: afaik moar of palace hostage than 'peasant'
mircea_popescu: i suppose matter should remain open for he who can be arsed to read on it ; that's the best i have for a theory in the meanwhile.
asciilifeform: he ~did~ iirc spend moar time than is healthy around priests
asciilifeform: sorta how the classical education worked there.
asciilifeform: i.e. take in some god swill with erry spoonful of latin, greek
mircea_popescu: i don't imagine the concept of "god" is per se harmful. greeks also had, and various others.
asciilifeform: the xtian ver. seems to be considerably moar rotting of brain
asciilifeform: what with god as puppeteer etc
asciilifeform: greek gods read rather moar like the americans' favourite 'superheroes', humanlike.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> greek gods read rather moar like the americans' favourite 'superheroes', humanlike. << Except better because they fucked hooker and played proto blackjack
mircea_popescu: it is quite the case usistani "superheroes" are mcdonaldization of greek pantheon, yeah.
asciilifeform: how else.
diana_coman: eh, re ceausescu, they first killed whatever elite there still was and then they got all critical and whatnot; lasati
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to expand ?
asciilifeform: revisiting upstack re ivan and his missing harem -- suleyman is even moar of a case of wtf, had not only correct 'church', but working harem, and then 'wrapped it around telephone pole' when roxy
mircea_popescu: suleyman had the worst harem possible, his mom picked it.
asciilifeform: point
asciilifeform: tho this simply moves the recursion, ~somebody~ up the line had to let things get to this
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I suppose one of those days I'll sink the time in and properly write-it all up and at least be done with it; I knew people who were not allowed to study at university because of "poor background" meaning that there parents had university studies; I also knew people who were pushed to the university because of "good background" although they did not have either inclination or desire for it; and leaving aside how this is to my
diana_coman: mind ~exactly the same as current "equality!!!" quotas and whatnots, I consider that the moment one does this systematically, there is right to complain that he ends up with idiots
diana_coman: their* parents, of course
asciilifeform: diana_coman: sounds like replay of early sovok
asciilifeform: 'социально чуждые элементы'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i can't get behind the usual reaction where 'noshit, this is retarded, what didja expect' tho. how the fuck ~else~ do you properly purge an oldregime wot ?
diana_coman: for completeness, I can say that I know from direct experience both force-peasants-to-town-into-big-houses and vanish in the night for having had too much wealth beforehand; none of it (in either case) is an achievement as far as I can see
asciilifeform: i dun have a better algo to give for how to reformat a cultural hdd , afaik that's still the state of the art.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, if you are into purging, at least purge the whole lot and be done with it; this sort of "let's cut the elite and then we grow a new one out of our ass" is stupid
asciilifeform: and yes it's quite destructive. but rly not moar so than the properly-dynastic oh so civilized west euros ~thermonuking their kingdoms in ww1 for perfectly nonjacobin 'great game' reasons
mircea_popescu: diana_coman what, the horses ? the "killed elite" thing would be what, i gh duca ? (and guess what, digging for that reference i also ran into -- apparently there's a piece re the afore mentioned prince) ☟︎
diana_coman: also re stale bread vs new bread I disagree mircea_popescu ; people used to make their OWN bread; not stale
diana_coman has to run, will bbl
asciilifeform: new elite grows always either from arse or from foreign conquest, from where else, martians aint about to parachute one in
mircea_popescu: any kind of ro elite was long gone by the time ceausescu came in, he gets to hide behind ye olde "greaua mostenire" trope. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: diana_coman but ~which people~ ? whole point of industrialization is moving from the traditional to the modern. is the idea that ceausescu is somehow personally responsible for the fact ? ☟︎
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i dun have a better algo to give for how to reformat a cultural hdd , afaik that's still the state of the art. << Well there is the US Socialist Disney block by block reformat algo as well ☟︎
asciilifeform: e.g. i have a (long-dead) distant kinsman whose father stayed alive in '20s strictly cuz he burned his swiss diploma. pretty sure ~erryone in sovokistans has a similar tale.
mircea_popescu: in any case, you will notice that we ourselves are purging this supposed "elite" and growing one, literally, from our arse.
mircea_popescu: and i daresay that the thing is working admirably well ; but not nearly as well as the sovok mechanism did in fact work -- the imperial officers would never have beaten the wehrmacht, for one thing.
mircea_popescu: is the only distinction that i don't actually hang the various negrated morons ? because i can swear it is to me a merely cosmetic matter, i would not lift finger one to stop it if they were in fact beheaded for it, and stalin did MORE than me in this vein, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-02#1877763 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-12-02 00:07 asciilifeform: there's a preserved communique from stalin to hrusch, where the latter served up umpteenth list of meat grinder candidates and stalin replied 'rejected, have measure, idiot'
asciilifeform: sovok , fwiw, properly poured cement over the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-03#1611080 thing ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-03 05:29 phf: my mom had one of those "papa escaped the purges by burning all paperwork but life got tough when they took our governess" piano teachers, who would lament about being forced to teach peasants and brown folk, not on racial grounds as much as "you have to have a bidet in your house for 3 generations, before you can touch a piano"
asciilifeform: lots and lotsa grade-a folx , literally outta the mud, and straight into 'take country from wooden plough to thermonuke and moon buggy'
mircea_popescu is vaguely curious if a century hence there will be tears shed over "all the destruction". someone's gonna cry for systemd, what.
mircea_popescu: "but mp, it worked. and we loved it". at least the horses were alive, that merits something. "but our figments and hallucinations -- just as alive to us!!!"
asciilifeform: 'bout the same as we cry for the church derps voltaire poured cement on
mircea_popescu: lotta that in france.
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to suleyman -- it is ~conceivable~, and definitely an excellent premise for an umberto eco-like novel, that suleyman gave up his harem to try and produce a harem generator that didn't suck.
mircea_popescu: "roxy you dumb whore, get your sons women like you, not like your dumb mother."
asciilifeform: eh if there's reservations of profoundly touched tards where they cry for the 'matriarchate' aboriginals, wainot also this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a++ idea for an eco.
mircea_popescu: i'd read it.
asciilifeform would defo read
mircea_popescu: even though i know how it ends.
asciilifeform: all ecos are where you know how ends.
asciilifeform: goes with the genre.
mircea_popescu: she hangs herself, over sheer despair, at the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-15#1670676 coming out of her. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-15 14:44 mircea_popescu: dude what is with this djb-ing sexually ambiguous 20something street urchins
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform goes in for the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-02#1877828 take on the histories ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-12-02 16:06 asciilifeform: nao, on other hand, 'cyclical histories' where 'confederacy of dunces' gangs up and dethrones their betters, and then whole edifice turns to shit, from shit grows sumthing new, etc. -- this i can buy, we're quite evidently in the trough of that sinusoid just nao
mircea_popescu: "i made chair, for man to sit in, with my hands as directed by my head, and an endless supply of stirpituri & tirituri, with my cunt, as directed by the cock going into it. WOE IS ME!"
asciilifeform: ( recall, the not long ago thrd where a: 'cultures are born, live, senesce, and die, like organisms' m:'poppycock' a:'best i got that makes any sense of the sinusoid')
mircea_popescu: the qualiy of your summaries recommends you to writing on bimbo.club.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: upstack, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901856 << i suspect this is red herring. it is 'institution' making a stab at regaining lost territory. asciilifeform's suspicion is that if 'history struggle', it aint between so much specifically 'new and old elite' as b/w human-man ( who wakes up and knows that he was put upon the earth to cut atom, build harem, etc ) and beetle-man, who 'knows' that he was born to eat from trough prikok ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 16:25 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i dun have a better algo to give for how to reformat a cultural hdd , afaik that's still the state of the art. << Well there is the US Socialist Disney block by block reformat algo as well
asciilifeform: e-style and 'let nuffin happen', ohnoez, 'happening could get in the way'
asciilifeform: the dichotomy amply documented by mircea_popescu & other folx
asciilifeform: i.e. the 2 contenders in the ring, are man and pig
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, as i understand, maps the 'pig' to 'female', but the model is quite same, this is moar of a label on the knobs
mircea_popescu: it is a constant complaint of the actual females, this. and one i always agree with -- when they bring it. because yes, there's nothing fundamentally female about the pig.
asciilifeform: when weighs 200kg, difficult for non-zoologist to distinguish boar and sow, is where the similarity.
mircea_popescu: but there ~IS~ something fundamentally piggish about the contemporaneous female, if the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901725 illustration didn't bring it into focus. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 15:18 mircea_popescu: even MORE ironically, one can quite say this was the face of the opposition. (chick married that dork, hence the double name.)
mircea_popescu: oink-oinkelite.
asciilifeform: the boars very similar.
asciilifeform: hence BingoBoingo's sharp 'third sex, mayo' observation
BingoBoingo: Which I merely captured from the fat people hate movement
asciilifeform: erry 'hate movement' is a cluster of lymphocytes around a very real irritant to organism.
mircea_popescu: well, maybe not every, but plenty of contemporraneous ones. (see ? again with the "is pig female or is female pig" conundrum. captive in history as we are...)
asciilifeform: pig, i suspect, when of prikoke mass, is simply pig.
mircea_popescu: consider the traditional antisemitism -- a cluster of lumphocytes around a very real problem, yes, but SUBJECTIVE PROBLEM OF THE JEWS. not irritating "the organism" as such in any sense, beyond the very obvious an' deeply human "you folk can't be this fucking stupid!" thing ☟︎
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as autoimmune reaction.
mircea_popescu: i guess this is a workable forcing of the metaphore.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, do you recall all the wank re cern cyclotron, "what if it brings about end of world ?!?!?!"
asciilifeform: i do
mircea_popescu: next time, they ain't losing the "debate".
mircea_popescu: if there's even gonna be a next time. i doubt it.
asciilifeform: and then iirc it broke down and 'moar studies needed' an' 'give us another $trillion of printola' and all was quiet
asciilifeform: sorta why those thread where , e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1501221 , http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1501380 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-11 16:29 asciilifeform: fundamental reason being, a gigantic machine employs and merit-washes 1,000,001 mediocrities
a111: Logged on 2016-07-11 17:14 asciilifeform: the whole field now consists of 'gimme' artists.
asciilifeform: the mega-cyclotron is not an instrument of physics, but of f35-style printing press diversion.
asciilifeform: whether physics-flavoured or wunderwaffen-flavoured or 'end poverty'(tm)(r)-flavoured, they're all quite alike
asciilifeform: recall story of where asciilifeform ~personally~ described to schwartz how to cut adelberger 100% out of the loop for under what mircea_popescu's bmw costs.
mircea_popescu: ima not bother to reiterate the period thread.
asciilifeform: is wai we have log linx!11
asciilifeform: so dun have to replay.
asciilifeform: but will add that i'd have easier time believing the 'physics picked the low-hanging fruit and now you NEED synchrophasotron for $trillion to do ANY' yarn , if it weren't a balloon fulla fart that i can on occasion puncture with fingernail without breaking a sweat
mircea_popescu: dunno argument was "low hanging fruit". they wanna see what happens at high energy. the only way to see is to make. approximately situation of "when it comes to cooking, don't have to order out. alf has this method of making polenta, works well!" "and if i want lobster ?" "well then you gotta buy a lobster". getting indignant over how "wanting lobster only serves to drive an impossible wedge between budget and mariscos mercha
mircea_popescu: nt resulting in ordering out" is a little shakily footed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: argument is not that you ought not to want to 'try it at high energy'
mircea_popescu: there can genuinely arise the situation where people who aren't necessarily trying to find their way to arby's / olive garden / we are nevertheless sick of polenta and saving to buy a lobster.
asciilifeform: argument is that the field went to stuff head up own arse, and took convenient excuse to 'you now NEED the high priest machine, or you aint in physics' to incaize
asciilifeform: !#s xray lens
a111: 1 result for "xray lens", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xray%20lens
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-04#1884412 < ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-01-04 17:15 asciilifeform: in other olds, apparently i slept through this, but in early 2000s some ru d00d actually built a ~non-grazing~ lens for xray. for pennies, at that.
asciilifeform: ^ fiddycents. and didn't need 9000 jobsworths, but 1 ru d00d.
asciilifeform: and genuinely newphysics.
asciilifeform: those lobsters, mircea_popescu , cost 0, they are already invisibly in erry kitchen.
asciilifeform: like napoleon's 'there is a marshall's baton in erry private's rucksack' item.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: 'but asciilifeform , if you want lobster, you gotta build a $9000b fishing fleet' 'mno, here's 1 from your own dryer lint trap, and it can bend xrays and modexp in constant time, naowat'
asciilifeform: 'not fair'
asciilifeform: the lhc aint an instrument of physics, simply from the fact that the people who control access to it, and the catamites they grant it to, aint physicists ! the actual physicists are drilling little holes in aluminum , in kitchens.
asciilifeform: sorta like the actual bitcoin maintainers, are here, and not mit.
asciilifeform: exactly like the 'actual chemists' nao, are the people who are looking for simpler syntheses of meth and 'ecstasy' out of not-yet-banned hardware shop crapola, and not the monkeys who sit all day doing http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-07#1900867 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-07 21:49 asciilifeform: 'enantiomeric' patent -- cheapest trick in that box
asciilifeform: when a wot (whichever wot, physics, austria-hungary, shitoshi's, etc - dun matter) makes the transition to 'institution', the ~actual life~ is definitionally to be found ~outside~ of it
asciilifeform: inside -- pig 'life'.
asciilifeform bbl: actual work
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2012/lets-dig-a-little-deeper-into-this-entire-deflation-problem/#selection-69.0-81.360 << In not quite mariscos, a number of local grocers here carry frozen Vietnamese farmed catfish.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/03/china-makes-humanitarian-move-to-aid-venezuala-restore-electricity-amid-dam-sabotage/ << Qntra -- China Makes Humanitarian Move To Aid Venezuala Restore Electricity Amid Dam Sabotage
BingoBoingo: Meanwhile in Spain: https://archive.is/sQ5Pr
BingoBoingo: "La misma impotencia, o más, sienten las chicas del CB Guadalaviar. Ganaron la liga femenina la temporada pasada. El otro día perdieron 50-4 contra un rival masculino. Hemos pasado de ser campeonas de liga el año pasado a sentirnos humilladas. Es un chasco de competición, todo esto desmotiva, porque todos los partidos acabamos por los suelos con golpes." ☟︎
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/Tfqyw << "Varias calles de la Ciudad Vieja permanecen cortadas y con desvíos luego de que varios vidrios de edificios de la zona estallaran con los vientos que se registraron en las últimas horas." But what did the wind blow? "En la madrugada de este miércoles un vidrio del décimo piso de la Torre Ejecutiva" Ah, the Presidential office tower got its 10th floor windows blown out. Not by a bomb. This Angloph
BingoBoingo: one America. This terrorist was the weather!
BingoBoingo: And in this busy local news day, the new criminal code in action https://www.subrayado.com.uy/compro-objetos-robados-y-la-justicia-lo-condena-hacer-100-tortafritas-y-donarlas-n528679
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/03/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-july-august-and-september-1716-part-viii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of July, August and September, 1716. - Part VIII.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901854 -> myeah, he gets to hide behind that indeed. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 16:23 mircea_popescu: any kind of ro elite was long gone by the time ceausescu came in, he gets to hide behind ye olde "greaua mostenire" trope.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901855 -> his "move" was - as most - very much in the vein of "this is the shop where we don't have fish" ☝︎☟︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 16:24 mircea_popescu: diana_coman but ~which people~ ? whole point of industrialization is moving from the traditional to the modern. is the idea that ceausescu is somehow personally responsible for the fact ?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: historic inland peasant may well have easily born and died without eating a fish, tho
asciilifeform: that , imho, is what to compare to
diana_coman: and that's valid for the 1000 bakeries too; I suppose one can argue that it's still an achievement to have bakeries with no bread than to have no bakeries and stale bread but I don't buy it; and note that in the 80's the latest brightest idea (in the same vein, all hail!) was to further do this sort of great "improvement", to wit the communal "neighbourhood kitchen" to get rid of such waste as having individual kitchens in every hruscheba ☟︎
diana_coman: (not to mention it's easier without, no?) ; circul foamei ☟︎
diana_coman: asciilifeform, so having a fish shop without fish is better because he at least knows now that he should have a fish or what?
diana_coman: ftr funnily enough precisely fish was very much missing from ro diet to such extent that yes, there were slogans "nici o masa fara peste" ☟︎
diana_coman: to get people to eat fish ("no meal without fish" )
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901720 -> maybe; but this sort of "it's enough to make the buildings and name them as to what they are meant to be, because surely then the content will magically appear" doesn't seem much realism to me, quite on the contrary. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 15:04 mircea_popescu: guy got shot for realism.
diana_coman: si in sfarsit, ca sa citez din profetul care le stia bag seama inca de mult dinainte ca doar nici nu-s noi: "Se cladeste un mare stabiliment artistic, un teatru, de exemplu. De ce? fiindca un stat modern are, intre alte organe de cultura, si astfel de stabilimente. Ei? cauti artisti - ia-i de unde nu sunt. Iti trebuie literatura - nu exista. Iti trebuie public - publicul nu vine la exhibitiile d-tale. Ce-ti mai ramane de facut in aceasta c
diana_coman: ladire, pentru care ai varsat sume colosale si unde ai sa cheltuiesti anual paragrafe anume? Nu-ti ramane alta decat sa faci macar politica."
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i must add also that i went for a week to timis, and for 5 days went past fish market, each time finding there 0 fish. apparently shooting the shoemaker did not fix..
asciilifeform: whod'vethunkit, 'communism cancelled' dun automagically transform an orcistan into 1950s manhattan.
asciilifeform: it sounds retarded, but in ru there was this genuinely large mass of people who thought 'oh hey now we will live like the west(tm)(r)'
diana_coman: with the added bonus that Ibraileanu in 1909 cites from the same piece of Caragiale (Politica si cultura) with the comment that Caragiale was the most acerbic critic of... "liberalism" (the quotations marks are Ibraileanu's) that is further explained as "partidul <<ros>>" aka the red party. ☟︎
diana_coman: asciilifeform, that communism cancelled doesn't solve the problems is clear, at least for the very simple reason that the problems were there even before communism, sure, as it can be seen from the pieces above that are quite earlier than that.
asciilifeform: does anyone recall old thrd where mircea_popescu linked to a youtube clip of some idiot kid smashing up ancient car that his father gave him, 'cuz not mercedes' ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: ~that~ is how i see the killing of the shoemaker.
diana_coman: I don't recall; but I'm sure that at/after the revolution in Romania the idea was quite the same
asciilifeform: problems in the class of 'no fish' are orig. created by http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-13#920487 , yes ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-11-13 23:14 asciilifeform: (king hunger is actually just an affiliate duke under king thermo)
asciilifeform: poseidon did not deign to make fish get out of ocean, walk to village, and jump into mouth..
diana_coman: asciilifeform, dunno; but take this re fish since you mentioned your experience in Timis; I can still remember when one found a rotten fish among the frozen "fish" with which communism improved one's diet forcibly.
asciilifeform: oddly enuff 0 of this where asciilifeform lived, but then again it ~was~ by the sea
asciilifeform: this kinda thing, 'would rather have no fish than rotten frozen', is presumably how ro ended up having to feed its horses to europistan as unlabeled mystery sausage when eurocrats banned horse on public road
asciilifeform: peasants quite logically dun want to industrialize, it is elementarily misery in immediate term ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: which is why stalin didn't bother to ask'em
asciilifeform: shoemaker, near as i can tell, didn't press the point very hard
diana_coman: you know, apparently I was several times unlucky in that - among other things - my hometown was/is an industrial town; which meant for instance that blackouts were very usual (because many powerful industrial consumers and they got priority) while from what I heard in non-industrial towns this wasn't really the case
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i am pleased to inform, we have regular blackouts in washingtonistan, despite 0 industry ( combo of 'errybody has air conditioner' , summer, and 19th c.-style pole wiring - winter )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I think there what can be said is that it could have certainly be pushed even harder.
asciilifeform: c ( or perhaps this ball belongs with dej ? ) maybe 'soft', or maybe thought could not afford to kill %% of his subjects, i do not presently know why not pushed. ☟︎
asciilifeform: but elementarily factory, roads, etc. are built out of pile of kicking, screaming meat, not 'from money' or any similar. england had its stalinization in 18th c.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, you know, that's the thing that popped at me as soon as I lived for any amount of time in the west: ffs those people do *of their own will and even paying money for* precisely the idiocies that I thought communism was to blame for. So in this sense, Ceausescu "ahead of his time" , marete realizari etc etc; I still think the direction totally wrong so pushing it further doesn't seem like a great achievement to me, that's all.
asciilifeform: it is above asciilifeform's pay grade to say with what algo to industrialize a kingdom without mass engineered penury and a good helping of butchery for the folx who dun get message. afaik this problem has no known historic pill.
asciilifeform: tho observe also, as soon as the butchery is removed , mentality sinks rapidly back into 'peasant', modern-day ameristani has exactly same relation with his auto as peasant -- horse
asciilifeform: with the diff that auto is 100% powered by 'great inca', you cannot plant petrol inside 'field' in a washington flat to feed to it, nor breed a replacement for when dies
BingoBoingo: Don't forget the unbutchered labor activists in the Southern Cone who will consider shuttering a Ford factory "a win for the people" ☟︎
diana_coman: to my mind that's precisely the thing: it's not (or not only) that "screaming meat" but the fact that at the end of it, it's only a replacement with what is in fact an inferior, not a superior thing ☟︎
BingoBoingo: "Samba sí, trabajo no"
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: is exactly what i meant as 'same relation as peasant to his horse', 'it is simply there' ☟︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: to paraphrase mao, the jury's still out on whether industry was in fact good deal vs horse an' plow
asciilifeform: the catch is that it aint optional, ro, bulgaria, etc. cancelled their shoemakers, lost industry, and now becomes feed base for foreigners
asciilifeform: just as e.g. ru became mineral market
BingoBoingo: I'm becoming rather convinced the common man encounters a psychological failure mode if they aren't scratching the dirt to avoid starvation
asciilifeform: on my admittedly short expedition i saw 5 dead factories , and 1 working -- little thing inside of much larger corpse ; and it made gears for bmw ☟︎
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901996 -> "it is simply there" was absolutely not the same relation I saw peasant-horse, no ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:56 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: is exactly what i meant as 'same relation as peasant to his horse', 'it is simply there'
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2011/jaful-si-economia/#selection-23.0-31.529 << apropos.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes; the contention is whether there is any option in fact to create it out of nothing and moreover by someone who never saw it other than from a distance at best
asciilifeform: diana_coman: in what sense was the attempt 'out of nothing' ?
asciilifeform: e.g. ru, cn , jp , followed ~same path, 'out of meat'. varied slightly in how the meat was herded out of farm and into factory, yes, but same raw material
diana_coman: from zero because "new man" and "proletariat will make now the middle class and the top class and everything else in between" ; oh, and culture and literature-with-party-line too, since we are at it
asciilifeform: 'new man' is what happens when 'old man' dun want to get off his horse, basta, donotwant ☟︎
asciilifeform: so you try an' make a 'new'. and pray that it worx, before 'a bunch of foreigners land on your shores, buy up some local chiefs, chop down your forests, rip the minerals out of your soil, enslave a few generations, and eventually go home, leaving their bastards in charge' ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-04#544129 << see also. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-03-04 01:25 asciilifeform: counter-derper: 'as the leather seats'
asciilifeform: 'the west'(tm)(r) has 'fish in erry supermarket' , only on acct of the accumulated fat of entire generations mercilessly recycled into fuel . that fuel -- is running out, not long left until returns to historic norm of 'want fish, live by the sea and catch it'
diana_coman: look that if we burnt down everything , we wouldn't even be able to chat; sure, make a new whatever but either you find a way to organically grow it with whatever bridges are needed at first out of what is or it's not going to work.
asciilifeform: stalin didn't either immediately conscript erry horse plower into factory.
asciilifeform: 'or would not be able to eat'
asciilifeform: it's a slow grinding process. but either the man with the crown sets it in motion, or shortly 'No-one needs to learn to read and write in order to carry rubies out of a deep mine. '
diana_coman: you know, the other funny thing is that all the Russians I talked to were rather shocked when I described every day childhood in an industrial town of the 80s in Romania; and usually the final comment is "hmmm, Romania didn't get to the part where it gets better". Perhaps though I can't quite see exactly how does it get better given the fundamental trouble.
asciilifeform: e.g. ro, lost its sovereignty , and arguably the bill for ~that~ aint even remotely paid yet, nao it hosts nato rockets and became legit target for ru defensive systems ☟︎
asciilifeform: if these fire , folx in ro will be lucky to have what grows to feed horse, not even speaking of auto or frozen fish.
diana_coman: sure; as mircea_popescu pointed out already, Romania lost already earlier than that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901850 ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 16:23 mircea_popescu: diana_coman what, the horses ? the "killed elite" thing would be what, i gh duca ? (and guess what, digging for that reference i also ran into -- apparently there's a piece re the afore mentioned prince)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'didn't get to the part where it gets better' << this is the distinct impression i get . and i suspect on acct of the shoemaker being soft. ☟︎
asciilifeform: 'better' requires whole lotta compressed 'worse'.
diana_coman: I can't see any sort of communism that is better.
diana_coman: in terms of communism it was possibly the best communism there ever was, I can readily grant that. My problem is with the fact that it was communism though so...
asciilifeform: earlier tried spreading for the germans. conceivably could have 'drinking bavarian' and even not as the leather seat, in an alt-hist ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 16:41 asciilifeform: there's a common set of jokes from su, q: 'if only we let germany win, we'd be drinking bavarian! riding in mercedes!' a: '... yes, ride in mercedes. but -- as the leather seat.'
diana_coman: i.e. "state property aka nobody's property" and so on ☟︎
asciilifeform: the 1 thing that defo dun work for 'better' is 'peasant gets to sit on his horse if he wants'
asciilifeform: ~that~ goes straight to becoming an africa. ☟︎
asciilifeform: as soon as you got neighbours that aint african knocking on door.
asciilifeform: england industrialized 'minus communism' but , i'll observe , with quite similar methods , and similar misery ☟︎
asciilifeform: going upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902021 , oddly enuff per my reading ro ~was~ sovereign during post-stalin sovok. i.e. routinely pissed right in the mouth of e.g. hrusch, and got away scot-free ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:15 diana_coman: sure; as mircea_popescu pointed out already, Romania lost already earlier than that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901850
diana_coman: well, england is particularly good at misery making from what I can tell so I'd even grant them that they probably did the misery part even worse
asciilifeform: tito's yugo, incidentally, similarly sovereign
diana_coman: I meant it lost its options really; and having an uppity peasant "rule" is not going to change that, only make it likely worse and longer ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: ( tito -- imho genius, somehow pulled off 'communized heavy industry, but private biz for food etc' ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is where i admit that it is above my paygrade to say just how 'maybe without shoemaker, less worse and shorter' . if there's a way to keep neighbours from turning yer congo into a resource extraction base without marching peasants at gunpoint to city and having'em stand in front of lathes to make kalashes, i do not know it ☟︎
asciilifeform: the typical result of attempt, is http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1044115 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-03-06 03:29 mircea_popescu: if you are one of the people buying belgian rubber concessions on the stock exchanges, you make money. if you're in africa, you make quick with the hands and feet.
asciilifeform: khmers tried in cambodia, got bulldozed by -- lol -- vietnamese army
asciilifeform: as for the old shoemaker, admittedly i never wore a crown, but afaik folx who wear crowns do not have the option of saying 'we lost options'. sorta like the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663960 thing. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 16:28 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
asciilifeform: if yer wearing a crown and you really think 'no options' , you get out the wagner and cyanide and be sure to also dose blondie the dog 1st to make sure as fuck the cyanide is strong enuff
PeterL: trinque: so I am running the cuntoo build script, it seems to have stopped doing anything, the end of the build log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/whbcf/?raw=true , not sure what to do next here? ☟︎
diana_coman: asciilifeform, sure, at the root of it being wtf was a shoemaker doing with the crown on his head
asciilifeform: wtf was a flunked seminary student an' bank robber was doing wearing crown, could also ask
asciilifeform: if the dynastic crown-wearer is enuff of a tard, then yes shoemaker, or cabbie, or defrocked priest, will wear
diana_coman: hence my earlier "out of options"
asciilifeform: what did napoleon(?) say , 'crown fell into mud, so i pulled it out'
diana_coman: precisely that: there aren't that many crown wearers to just let the one you have die
asciilifeform: re sovereignty, i cannot resist to add a legendary tidbit : j. hariton , co-designer of sov nukes with kurchatov , in his last yrs of life was reputed to have uttered 'idiot , eltsin, thinks he is getting red carpet reception in washington because he is some kinda man, rather than because they think he has some of my warheads still in working order'
asciilifeform: no warheads -> not only no red carpet, but you get orders from washington transmitted through a leiah at usg dept of state , and not by going into white house.
diana_coman: soft words work best with a big gun sort of news?
asciilifeform: moar of a 'without gun, the words go in 1 direction and are words 'drop on knees an' get ready to please' '
asciilifeform: i wonder whether usg even bothers to ask ro 'democratic' apparatus when it feels like moving the 'aegis' batteries from place to place ☟︎
asciilifeform: ... or when it's time to close the torture dungeon for renovation and open new one
diana_coman: I haven't really followed in ages what democratic this and that is going on in there but I doubt there's anyone to ask anyway
asciilifeform: i dun expect 'following' would tell one much, unless it is in the sense of 'followed gauleit^H^H^H^H^H^Hpresident and bugged his comp'
mircea_popescu: ow megalog!
diana_coman goes to read some more Caragiale to calm down
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901947 <<< ahahaha fucktards won't even admit. it's because the boys are mean that they're fat and slow ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 18:14 BingoBoingo: "La misma impotencia, o más, sienten las chicas del CB Guadalaviar. Ganaron la liga femenina la temporada pasada. El otro día perdieron 50-4 contra un rival masculino. Hemos pasado de ser campeonas de liga el año pasado a sentirnos humilladas. Es un chasco de competición, todo esto desmotiva, porque todos los partidos acabamos por los suelos con golpes."
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902040 -> ftr the problem is not that he "moved pesants to town" but simply that he did that a. through blatant lies (what communism is) rather than an honest gunpoint if that's what it takes b. failed in the end anyway ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:24 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is where i admit that it is above my paygrade to say just how 'maybe without shoemaker, less worse and shorter' . if there's a way to keep neighbours from turning yer congo into a resource extraction base without marching peasants at gunpoint to city and having'em stand in front of lathes to make kalashes, i do not know it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901954 << you wanna discuss the fellow in the strict terms of 1984-1989 ? he found himself promoted (by lack of actual alternative at the time, ftr, not so much he took step forward as everyone else took steep absence) in '65. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:08 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901855 -> his "move" was - as most - very much in the vein of "this is the shop where we don't have fish"
mircea_popescu: the 60s worked signfiicantly better in east berlin than i nwest berlin. the 80s miserably -- but mind that at the time, the russkis were doing ~even worse~.
mircea_popescu: this isn't made up, either, various high officials joking about it, "what, ima desert in moscow ?! these schmucks have it worse than we do"
mircea_popescu: let's do a quick ro commie likbez : ceausescu took over in '65. he got rid of dej-era leftovers as part and parcel of continuing dej's own policy of escaping the soviets. this the west ineptly (but in typical self-centered manner) misreported as "loosening".
mircea_popescu: he then implemented his own state apparatus. there's nothing peculiar about this -- incoming us president also gets rid of old regime bureaucracy, at least if he has any fucking sense.
mircea_popescu: other than escaping the soviets, he attempted a sort of mini-imperialism, the cutest tchotchke show you could ever imagine, romania as an imperial power of a rag tag group of nowhere countries (including columbia, we discussed the very unhappy lulz of romania when those doods decided to just walk out of "agreements" -- mirroring exactly say spain, over the centuries)
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, "greaua mostenire" cuts both ways though; he gets to hide behind it for a while but he also doesn't get credit for a while
mircea_popescu: as incidentally (and incompehendingly, to him) oil was high then (arab embargo) he decided to center this mini-empire on oil production and refining.
mircea_popescu: whole thing went bankrupt in the 70s, by 72 it was dead. he decided to blame "the jews", as he understood them, hence "show off those slick ny bankers, pay debt".
mircea_popescu: the country never recovered.
diana_coman: and yes, I can see him easily and predictably as a scapegoat; kids, don't take crown found in the mud just because nobody else wants it
mircea_popescu: diana_coman the point of the discussion, though, is to not end up accidentally banning shitting just because ceausescu was known to shit.
mircea_popescu: in his relations to, eg, the "intellectual elite" (in their own mind, and exactly nowhere else) as gathered before him at say neptun, or mangalia, he was entirely correct. and his pointing out that they have yet work to do before their workproduct is as tall as he stands is sound, if unpleasant.
mircea_popescu: what elite ? the pliiceanu corps ? that fat pig above ? gunoi dinescu ? laisses, as inept as ceausescu might've been politically, the culturniks were inept ^ inept.
diana_coman: I suppose it's even ironic that the work he wanted them to do was by all indications closer to their possibilities; after all he wasn't asking for art or culture but simply for the set number of sentences with the set number of correct words and so on.
mircea_popescu: qutie exactly.
mircea_popescu: witness how the "boierii mintii" to this fucking day have on display neither a) work to compare with trilema or else b) the required prosternation before it.
mircea_popescu: ie, it would have been ~better~, and for all of these dorks, to have obeyed ceausescu in '71, and in '83, and whenever else, than to adlai about.
diana_coman: I wasn't even for a second considering *those* elites, no; as I said: elites were long dead by that time; the thing was precisely that being between them, well, he was asking the fat pigs to actually do something; big surprise they oinked only louder trembling that the food might stop.
asciilifeform: i cannot resist to bite, an' ask, diana_coman , why the '83 adlais 'not elite', but the tail ends of habsburg absentee landlords somehow 'elite'
diana_coman: and I'm not actually sure that pointing out "oh, but he was very correctly pointing out to the pigs that they should do something for their food"
diana_coman: makes anything; I mean: talking to the pigs ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform romania had this brief surge in the late 1800s / early 1900s. her pov is factual, ro army had better officers than ~most anyone, for instance, and it was proven in both the extrication of the tsar from his inept turkis venture and in ww1.
asciilifeform: if so great -- then wai fungus ate
mircea_popescu: ww2.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, ^ ; I can't really make it any shorter / clearer than that
mircea_popescu: understand the situation : ro army held its 1/4 of stalingradf front with infantry and the occasional tachanka.
mircea_popescu: wehrmacht had tanks, and the finns had impassible terrain.
asciilifeform: so herr hitler shows up and says 'let's you an' i drang nach osten together, howabout'. wai ro elite answrd 'sure' and not 'fuckoff' (like e.g. swiss)
mircea_popescu: because russians not human.
asciilifeform: i dunthink the swiss thought 'ohnoez, human'
asciilifeform: moar like 'i'ma not stick cock in wasp nest'
asciilifeform: why ro, had to put cock in wasps.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826747 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 15:59 mircea_popescu: the universal oppinion of romanian officer corps, which, in romania, a country very german, were more than a third of the whole shebang, was that russians are literally worse than dogs.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, at the grassroots thing, quote great-grandmother who lived through both wars: ffs ,the german soldiers were at least clean! the russians got us full of fleas!
asciilifeform: i.e. idea is 'it'll go like pilsudski and not napoleon' ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but the russians also didn't ally with swiss against mongol horde only to withdraw midway
mircea_popescu: the incredible mismanagement of world affairs by revolutionary govt cost the russians stalingrad, quite plainly.
mircea_popescu: it's the sort of historical truth people dun wanna hear, but the causation's plain an' obvious.
asciilifeform: dunno that partial differentiation worx in this context. for all i know, if not revolution + stalingrad, then instead http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 . ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:06 asciilifeform: so you try an' make a 'new'. and pray that it worx, before 'a bunch of foreigners land on your shores, buy up some local chiefs, chop down your forests, rip the minerals out of your soil, enslave a few generations, and eventually go home, leaving their bastards in charge'
asciilifeform: the old empire was irrecoverably sad as early as 1907.
mircea_popescu: im not saying that staying behind and honoring war committments was POSSIBLE for the russians. i suspect -- was not possible.
mircea_popescu: but nevertheless, diplomatically they were fucking inept. there's one thing to fail on an obligation, there's another to be offensive about it.
asciilifeform: sorta how entente saw the whole ru withdrawal , neh
mircea_popescu: which is why people even have diplomats in the first place, and why the whole "oh, washiongton correspondents dinner" wank ever even had any root in reality :
mircea_popescu: because there's this group of people who talk for you so you don't end up more hated than you need to be.
asciilifeform: the real q is waithefuq should lenin have fought britain's war for it . imho really oughta have ~switched sides~
mircea_popescu: lenin hadn't what to fight a soccer match with, let alone war.
asciilifeform: near as i can tell, that'd be why
mircea_popescu: point being, ro front was half-ru.
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu: easy fix, at peace conference post ww1, instead of "here's what we want" could've been, "oh, romania, sacred mother of our people, plox forgive us"
mircea_popescu: but the galling idiocy of these schmucks actually making territorial demands ? it wasn't gonna be forgotten.
mircea_popescu: soviets needed a slightly larger ukraine like i need slightly longer nose hairs. they ~did~ however need a friendly romania more than they needed hats.
mircea_popescu: hat dun keep stalingrad from starving.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901954 << not originally. originally, it was in the vein of hungarians driving over to shop in romania. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:08 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901855 -> his "move" was - as most - very much in the vein of "this is the shop where we don't have fish"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901958 << it's a matter of infrastructure that's discussed. in any fair comparison, nicu's building/whitewashing butade is actually closer to truth than any aferations of the "european stability and development funds" wank. infrastructurally, romania grew in the 60s and 70s. this was not matched hence (or ever afore, even accounting for surface and population, the carol boom is almost a degr ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:11 diana_coman: and that's valid for the 1000 bakeries too; I suppose one can argue that it's still an achievement to have bakeries with no bread than to have no bakeries and stale bread but I don't buy it; and note that in the 80's the latest brightest idea (in the same vein, all hail!) was to further do this sort of great "improvement", to wit the communal "neighbourhood kitchen" to get rid of such waste as having individual kitchens in every hruscheba
mircea_popescu: ee of magnitude smaller.)
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, when was that original hungarians driving over? because if it's 60s, dunno it has anything to do with him or with greaua mostenire in reverse
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901959 << note how this is EXACTLY what the usgistani is converging to, from both the "airbnb" end and the "communal dwelling for lifetime students" end. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:11 diana_coman: (not to mention it's easier without, no?) ; circul foamei
diana_coman: and yes, big; useful and durable?
mircea_popescu: guy was ahead of his time, it's not specifically his fault that the spawn-and-divideresources cuntal strategy fails.
diana_coman: aha, I even said it
diana_coman: ahead; not sure on the right road though
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yes, useful and durable. romania got a hidro power structure, for instance. the reason it even has power today.
mircea_popescu: that log thing about "what sovok is -- it's when they take the poor country girl and give her a house for free", that fucking happened. whole generations of what else'd have [been] turned into http://trilema.com/fata-satului got forcibly taught how to be textile mill workers , and got forcibily placed in 1k sqft of new construction to call a house.
mircea_popescu: or a hruscheba, or w/e the fuck they call it. makes entirely no difference, for the vast majority of the population of romania at the time had never lived in paved dwellings. ☟︎
diana_coman: that is true; I kept thinking of the inept useless huge buildings , not the hydro and roads
mircea_popescu: and the houses! the data's even published on trilema, compare the rfucking living surfaces 1930 to 1960, ie during the two earthquakes.
mircea_popescu: and so on!
diana_coman: uhm, wait
diana_coman: what does 1930 to 1960 have to do with it?
mircea_popescu: yes dood made a palace in a dubious style, that all the tircovnici obositi kept "superiorily" criticizing. but tell you what -- none of them were born in a better palace. they have all the footing to talk that any other african does.
diana_coman: now C gets credit for 1960?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman there were two major earthquakes in romania : nov 1940, and march 1977.
mircea_popescu: willy-nilly these are the points of comparison as to the extant real estate inventory.
mircea_popescu: ie, the carlton fell in 1940.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901961 << this actually worked into the whole imperialism angle above. ceausescu had both drydocks of large capacity and steel production. decided to make ocean trawlers to compete in the (at the time) ongoing race to the bottom -- throughout 70s world oceans were systematically and industrially depopulated, a classical disaster of commons situation. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:12 diana_coman: ftr funnily enough precisely fish was very much missing from ro diet to such extent that yes, there were slogans "nici o masa fara peste"
mircea_popescu: the local twerps tho knew better, wouldn't touch the stuff. so it got sold in south-east asia instead.
diana_coman: at any rate, it's not just a palace in dubious style; look at this point of ref: in 1960, new workers in Ploiesti got to buy a strip of land and build their own house; and they did, not one or two but whole streets; some of those were even fixed-size parcel, others (more expensive) not; in the 80s, workers got assigned (when? well, when enough children) some concrete-hruschebas-sorta-kinda-finished on the rule of n-1 rooms (not dorms, room
diana_coman: s)
diana_coman: that is his great contribution
diana_coman: from the 60s to the 80s it goes from can build house on worker's salary to get to live in the party's shit
diana_coman: not to mention how many were full of mould to the point that you'd get children with asthma and what not ☟︎
mircea_popescu: there's no argument as to degradation. the objection is that the whole soviet world was undergoing the same process, and it hit the russians worse.
diana_coman: much more living space, right?
mircea_popescu: but yes, ceausescu's imperialist plans were obviously going to fail by the time mid 70s turned around, and were well and thoroughly doomed in 1980. ☟︎
diana_coman: that thing with hit the russians worse is oddly in opposition to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902023 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:15 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'didn't get to the part where it gets better' << this is the distinct impression i get . and i suspect on acct of the shoemaker being soft.
mircea_popescu: i dunno that he knows what he's talking about. as a factual matter, 1985 living conditions were worse in moscow than in bucharest (and by far worse in bucharest than say cluj, or timisoara)
diana_coman: I suspect it's Moscow that was a superlative shithole simply
diana_coman: pretty much as you readily grant bucharest is/was one
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying this is the dood's doing to any degree -- there's a very clear gradient, once the crisis hit, it propagated west to east.
mircea_popescu: ie, the yugos had it arguably the best in the 80s, among the whole warsaw pact.
diana_coman: moscow is also waaaay bigger so presumably the shitholness factor is a few degrees of magnitude higher, easily
mircea_popescu: possibly. there's very many variables to control in comparisons.
mircea_popescu: but there's two lines of pedestrian ceausescu-hate that carry no water. one is, "he is responsible for drought". dood is not a 12yo girl dancing naked in the street, has no peculiar relationship to rain. the other is that he was particularly stupid. was not -- way the fuck smarter than period writers, or generally "intellectuals". less aware of the ample thesaurus of borrowed knowledge they used to drop in conversation as a s ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ort of handshake, but imo this is defensible disinterest. you wouldn't say a kid "learns nothing in school" because he doesn't come home with the list of what grunge bands to listen to for maximum cooldom.
mircea_popescu: the typical "oh, casa poporului is so ugly" item goes right in #2 above : it's a code, exactly like any other code. it's function is to permit the sort of moron who is affraid of the world to recognize who's likely to huddle with him.
diana_coman: I didn't even realise casa poporului was such a reference point in this sense; i.e. ugly well, it's typical era-style, what
diana_coman: and fwiw it has everything inside made-in-romania so there, pride
mircea_popescu: it's not any uglier than 1, police plaza in new york
diana_coman: if anything, casa poporului at least is basically to this day a ...monument if nothing else
mircea_popescu: and i fail to hear stupid cunt-pippidi explain "how ugly it is"
mircea_popescu: or, horrible dictu, how it mars obama as a moron with no culture.
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding ceausescu watched tv for his own interest, at least, which is a step above the nigglet.
diana_coman never heard this "how ugly it is" re casa poporului, possibly because she never listened to mungiu-pippidi and the like
mircea_popescu: yes well.
diana_coman: I always rather considered casa poporului among his achievements - at least there is something everyone knows re Bucharest, what do you want now
mircea_popescu: (i also fail to hear these "cultured" fucktards explain how ~exactly the same~ was said of what now makes the glory of austria, that insane dood's palaces) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: somehow they never fucking heard of anything, it's like talking to bouvard & pecuchet.
mircea_popescu: incidentally alf, ludwig 2 of bavaria is a fine example re this wot. one day decided to ditch his cabinet -- the cabinet decided it'd better ditch him first!!! ☟︎
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902171 -> fwiw it's hate of communism of which ceausescu is the great product and crowning - admittedly local- glory. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:40 mircea_popescu: but there's two lines of pedestrian ceausescu-hate that carry no water. one is, "he is responsible for drought". dood is not a 12yo girl dancing naked in the street, has no peculiar relationship to rain. the other is that he was particularly stupid. was not -- way the fuck smarter than period writers, or generally "intellectuals". less aware of the ample thesaurus of borrowed knowledge they used to drop in conversation as a s
mircea_popescu: sure, why not.
mircea_popescu: the problem with communism, however, is not that it kept plesu, liiceanu, dinescu, mungiu etc from producing great crystals of pure thought to make the fame of romania throughout the ages.
mircea_popescu: on the contrary -- to them, its most excellent quality is they've something to blame for ~their own~, wholly subjective and entirely cosubstantial nothingness.
diana_coman: re stupid my understanding of the usual charge is that he was non-intelligent, not non-smart; clever and shrewd perhaps; then again, this is my "translation" - I don't really know either way, not as if I knew the guy
mircea_popescu: meanwhile ceausescu's communism DID produce the only olympic gold romania got till those times.
mircea_popescu: and possibly hence.
mircea_popescu: and it is VERY different to take credit from the industrial products that are 12yo gymnasts, than to sit about and go "o look, this excellent tennis player got #1".
mircea_popescu: very different sports. there's a reason communisms produce ballerinas.
diana_coman: but plesu, liiceanu, dinescu, mungiu etc are equally products of communism and I'd much rather have preferred not hearing of them ever
mircea_popescu: i don't think this was avoidable. like that schmuck whose name's forgotten who wanted to be famous so bad, set athens on fire.
diana_coman: not only ballerinas, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K21yj2lEgrA
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901970 << the good bit there is where he asks for some hair paint be invented to order. saw that ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:40 diana_coman: with the added bonus that Ibraileanu in 1909 cites from the same piece of Caragiale (Politica si cultura) with the comment that Caragiale was the most acerbic critic of... "liberalism" (the quotations marks are Ibraileanu's) that is further explained as "partidul <<ros>>" aka the red party.
diana_coman: yes! I had a blast and many chuckles re-reading Caragiale
diana_coman: vapsea de par interna :D
mircea_popescu: yeah. and yes, his words for the opposition would have been "partidul collectivist". what c a rosetti & co were pushing is entirely indistinct from today's pantsuitism, in all its particulars.
mircea_popescu: "liberals" in the sense clinton's "democratic"
mircea_popescu: these are just words niggers say.
diana_coman: quite; there was a bit of an anger moment when I realised that in school they never even *mentioned* those writings of Caragiale, let alone study them ☟︎
mircea_popescu: (he was not alone either, eminescu of entirely the same persuasion)
mircea_popescu: diana_coman "coincidentally", in the pantsuit sense of coincidence.
diana_coman: aha, ibraileanu in fact mentions both as similar in this sense though Caragiale even more instransigent on the matter, supposedly because simply living closer to the problem as it were, as it started in Muntenia
mircea_popescu: in any case, to briefly revisit : ceausescu's designs with his oil gains, while ultimately crowned by failure, were nevertheless A LOT smarter than period venezuela's commitments. and certainly way the fuck better than qatar building another mall today.
mircea_popescu: it's unclear how much can be expected of one guy, or what exactly set of interactions to judge him by. nevertheless, setting top level policy broadly correctly is probably both there and sufficient. in this sense, ceausescu is better than say the english tard, what's her name, or the german tard, what's her name.
mircea_popescu: may respectiv merkel, mi se sopteste din off.
diana_coman: this eerily reminds me of "but why are you so upset with yourself??? others got even worse marks than you!!!"
diana_coman: if it is to grant him that there are currently many worse than him - readily granted.
mircea_popescu: you still gotta score the set somehiw.
mircea_popescu: not even a matter of upset or not upset, just, "order this set"
diana_coman: sure but scoring based on the bottom is dubious
mircea_popescu: the argument as i perceived it generally revolves around this "omg, he's the devil!!!"
diana_coman: i.e. look, not as bad as it can be; sure, there is always worse.
mircea_popescu: exact nonsense spewing out of the same quarters during say basescu terms.
diana_coman: the argument where?
mircea_popescu: i ran into a lotta these, you know, idle workers who couldn't work because basescu didn't let them.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, in the "public space", whatever.
diana_coman: ahahah, sure
diana_coman: there is plenty of others to blame and then the top-name is at least easy to remember so there, win.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901981 << misery in the short term and complete oblivion in the long term. there's not gonna be anymore "trade in women" as they expect it to work, for one thing. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:46 asciilifeform: peasants quite logically dun want to industrialize, it is elementarily misery in immediate term
mircea_popescu: diana_coman sure, why not. for the same money could just blame god tho.
diana_coman: they did! "it's so-and-so-saint day, can't work or I'll get the plague"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901987 << it was pushed as hard as it needed to be. ro industrialized ~same as ussr did, really. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:49 asciilifeform: c ( or perhaps this ball belongs with dej ? ) maybe 'soft', or maybe thought could not afford to kill %% of his subjects, i do not presently know why not pushed.
diana_coman: bonus: si din batrani e obicei / in cinstea sfintilor sa bei - / iar legea n-o stirbesc parintii.
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: the universal problem, in the end : there's a difference between what you want and what you need.
diana_coman: not to mention when you get what you neither want nor need :P
mircea_popescu: necessarily.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901993 << right, http://trilema.com/2012/the-imbecilitarians/#selection-191.0-209.295 geniuses at work. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:55 BingoBoingo: Don't forget the unbutchered labor activists in the Southern Cone who will consider shuttering a Ford factory "a win for the people"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901994 << this is deeply untrue, though. romania made its own military equipment, which it did not have in the 30s. there's such a thing as truck factory or tractor factory or etc. period romania had ENTIRELY nothing at all, revisit http://trilema.com/2012/o-bucatica-de-istorie-sau-1907-din-primavara-pina-in-toamna-de-ion-luca-caragiale/ as an excellent summary of the situation in the countr ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:56 diana_coman: to my mind that's precisely the thing: it's not (or not only) that "screaming meat" but the fact that at the end of it, it's only a replacement with what is in fact an inferior, not a superior thing
mircea_popescu: y "prior". the whole thing was a bunch of inept by-hand farmers (CENTURIES after the french peasant had domestique-industrialize already! CEEENTURIES!!!!) and a 14% class literally dreaming on top of them, while "hating" the boss that "makes them" do the makework that existed ENTIRELY as a pretext to pay them, in the very "internal paint" hope they might achieve something sometime somehow (all unspecified).
mircea_popescu: that communism was untenable by the time 80s rolled around is a historical fact ; but kingdom romania was actually ~more~ bankrupt, as an intellectual endeavour, than communism ever got.
mircea_popescu: the commies answers to fundamental questions, as insufficient, incorrect, inept, useless or w/e else you might find them, seated in the hallowed confines of the republic, nevertheless blew the fuck out of the water the available alternatives.
mircea_popescu: yes they "were brought by the tanks", but they stayed because they were actually effectual, and actually persuasive.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902001 << the problematic things here are miniaturization and technologization. there's relatively little need or use for the sort of "factory" as displayed in 1950s italian films. and besides, india can have those. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:59 asciilifeform: on my admittedly short expedition i saw 5 dead factories , and 1 working -- little thing inside of much larger corpse ; and it made gears for bmw
mircea_popescu: eg, s.nsa is more of a factory, in objective terms, than tractorul brasov ever was or could have been. it's what it is, these days "factory" is complex item. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902009 << this is VERY much related to the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901903 discussion. it's not like #trilema was fulla linus, djb, everyone else, and i out of my sheer insane evil meanness negrated them an' forced them out. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:05 asciilifeform: 'new man' is what happens when 'old man' dun want to get off his horse, basta, donotwant
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 17:02 mircea_popescu: consider the traditional antisemitism -- a cluster of lumphocytes around a very real problem, yes, but SUBJECTIVE PROBLEM OF THE JEWS. not irritating "the organism" as such in any sense, beyond the very obvious an' deeply human "you folk can't be this fucking stupid!" thing
mircea_popescu: the fucking morons ~opted~ for evil, and then went about as if their pretending "they didn't opt" makes it BE THE CASE they did not so opt.
mircea_popescu: new man happens when old man chooses to be so fucking stupid as to not meaningfully exist in any sense.
mircea_popescu: "oh, but we'd exist in our stupid sense we came up with!" right.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 << fucking precisely. watching #trilema from a distance, with imbecile "skepticism" is not a free option. should it fail, there goes computing, and generally speaking this is the one chance this century. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:06 asciilifeform: so you try an' make a 'new'. and pray that it worx, before 'a bunch of foreigners land on your shores, buy up some local chiefs, chop down your forests, rip the minerals out of your soil, enslave a few generations, and eventually go home, leaving their bastards in charge'
mircea_popescu: next century, maybe has one also. maybe not.
diana_coman: http://trilema.com/2012/o-bucatica-de-istorie-sau-1907-din-primavara-pina-in-toamna-de-ion-luca-caragiale/#selection-283.267-283.654 -> to which communism was the answer; oh boy.
mircea_popescu: it was a better answer than anything bratianu had.
mircea_popescu: (this largely consisted of "let's give oil to shell and with money build carlton bloc hurr durr".)
mircea_popescu: but yes, the history of the "free world" closely approximates the history of a bunch of morons. because guess what -- they ARE a bunch of morons.
diana_coman: changing one set of lies for another set of lies; better lies! granted, everything is just a better lie until finding an even better one.
mircea_popescu: he is ~absolutely correct~, too. the actual fuel, for communism's efficiency and persuasion, was precisely the reservoir he identifies : ". Și cîți aliați devotați n'ar găsii în captivii de cari pomenim mai sus, sătui de a-și călca mereu pe cuget și pe inimă, de a-și jertfi zilnic, pe altarul minciunii și inichității, convingerile lor adînci, dragostea de adevăr și de patrie !." is === http://trilema.com/20
mircea_popescu: 13/on-learning-communism/#selection-63.118-63.131
mircea_popescu: that woman, born i'd guess in the 30s, was the daughther.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman newton -> einstein is precisely changing a set of lies for a better set of lies. world dun work as physics says, nor ever did. however -- better lies work better.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902019 << eh, this was always the case. romania didn't particularly ~want~ to participate in ye various wars. but always this circumstantial "Can't really not to". ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:14 asciilifeform: e.g. ro, lost its sovereignty , and arguably the bill for ~that~ aint even remotely paid yet, nao it hosts nato rockets and became legit target for ru defensive systems
diana_coman: born in the 30s was educated 40s-50s, rather mostenire as it were.
asciilifeform in the midst of ffalogical labyrynth but cannot resist to peek & eat thrd
diana_coman will go to sleep
asciilifeform: goodnight diana_coman
mircea_popescu: people recur, is the thing.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902029 << sure. and also, that you went to universitatea politehnica bucuresti, instead of mit. i believe ushinski is way the fuck better than dr seuss, in terms of primary school textbooks, also. and so following. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:17 diana_coman: i.e. "state property aka nobody's property" and so on
mircea_popescu: even though economy had ~died, the 70s east cultural clock still synchronized a lot closer to reality than the 70s west cultural clock. ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902158 << ~100% of ameristani dwellings have mold that would make sovok inspector shit in pants ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:35 diana_coman: not to mention how many were full of mould to the point that you'd get children with asthma and what not
asciilifeform: ( presswood, see , and ~uncleanable 'central air' ducts )
mircea_popescu: in the end, there's two major functions of leadership in human society. one is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-12#1880251 (generally called "economy") and the other is, synchronization, as in, selection of schelling points. this is usualyl called culture, but it's a large thing, including tropes and all sorta manner of thing. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-12-12 18:21 mircea_popescu: aanyway. labour allocation is broken and nobody has any better.
mircea_popescu: as it happens, in warsaw pact function #1 failed ~mid 70s, and function #2 failed ~mid 80s. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-22 05:18 mircea_popescu: long story short, soviet kids integrated into youth culture faster than soviet state integrated "soviet world" ; the result was the failure of the soviet state.