log☇︎
700+ entries in 0.194s
Framedragger: sina: fwiw (he can speak for himself but to save you time), asciilifeform does not like sessions [ever|anymore], and considers them ugly beasts which won't have a place in his gossipd bed ☟︎
Framedragger: (but then, the newer article clearly states "This is an up-to-date draft specification for gossipd", so i'm not too sure about that, either)
sina: asciilifeform: yest you said no sessions in gossipd, yet http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/ clearly describes a session based proto
Framedragger: (ah in fact a bit up the stack, http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-121602) ☟︎
Framedragger: sina: (re. enumerate -- http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-121604)
Framedragger: afaict gossipd model assumes that some rsa keys had been exchanged out-of-band. traditional challenge-response has been constantly critiqued by asciilifeform via "it's a DoS vector" argument (sorry if too curt, am in bed)
asciilifeform: 1) original mircea_popescu's algo: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc 2) the newer: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document
Framedragger got confused from article, too (hence not opining re gossipd currently)
Framedragger: in fact i'd imagine that gossipd should ideally allow for arbitrary end to end encryption, would be up to operator?
Framedragger recalls mircea_popescu's archaic use of "for" in context of gossipd
asciilifeform: Framedragger: in mircea_popescu's gossipd algo, there are 2 types of messages, ordinary and private. the latter behave as described above
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 00:54 asciilifeform: phf has a very similar gossipd in commonlisp, for instance
sina: ok so I implemented some p2p encryption for the gossipd thingo
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:12 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674379 << introductions aren't intended to be handled by gossipd. the correct way to do this is for me to say "add 8A56264EAD0BC4BD9CD7AC0086B488AB sina" which is a legitimate pubkey of your gossipd, AND for you to go whatever re mine. then they can talk, change keys etc. not before./
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:28 asciilifeform: irc is exactly 'gossipd without crypto'.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:02 asciilifeform: for one thing, there IS NO SESSION in gossipd (either my concept or either of mircea_popescu's two essays)
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 00:57 asciilifeform: sina: one of the things gossipd needs is a constant-time-constant-space rsa. if you don't have one, enemy can derive your privkeys remotely based on timing.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 09:58 sina: if anyone wants to play https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd
mircea_popescu: gossipd should hot be able to discover peers. (if you think about it, the ability to discover peers is another way to say "leaking data").
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674379 << introductions aren't intended to be handled by gossipd. the correct way to do this is for me to say "add 8A56264EAD0BC4BD9CD7AC0086B488AB sina" which is a legitimate pubkey of your gossipd, AND for you to go whatever re mine. then they can talk, change keys etc. not before./ ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: for gossipd auth
a111: Logged on 2016-02-08 00:06 mircea_popescu: the only assurance to be had here comes from a gossipd model. where anyone could have written the plaintext, and for all anyone POORLY CONNECTED knows, they probably did.
asciilifeform: irc is exactly 'gossipd without crypto'. ☟︎
sina: I got that impression from reading gossipd logs, obviously I didn't read everything ever because I only learned about the linespeed thing yesterday
sina: can I clarify something? when you say gossipd are you assuming that all traffic is enciphered?
sina: ok fair point, I get the general need for constant time constant space algo regardless of gossipd stuff anyway
sina: session may be the wrong term. I just mean, in the spec http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ "III. Gossipd will receive inbound connectionsvii from identified clientsviii and on the basis of that identification produce an encrypted challenge string, which constitutes its response. If the other party responds with the proper challenge string, the connection is established ; otherwise it is
asciilifeform: for one thing, there IS NO SESSION in gossipd (either my concept or either of mircea_popescu's two essays) ☟︎
asciilifeform: sina: one of the things gossipd needs is a constant-time-constant-space rsa. if you don't have one, enemy can derive your privkeys remotely based on timing. ☟︎
asciilifeform: phf has a very similar gossipd in commonlisp, for instance ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 16:32 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674428 << fwiw i carefully read all of it. asciilifeform's verdict: very much a gabriel_laddel-ization of gossipd. does 0 of the necessary work, and drags in 5+GB of liquishit deps (python, sql, some derp's crypto lib.) the amount of this that would have to be rewritten, from the ground, is 100%. not even useful as illustration of anything, because NONE of the actually complicated moving parts of a
asciilifeform: proper gossipd, are in there.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 09:58 sina: if anyone wants to play https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674428 << fwiw i carefully read all of it. asciilifeform's verdict: very much a gabriel_laddel-ization of gossipd. does 0 of the necessary work, and drags in 5+GB of liquishit deps (python, sql, some derp's crypto lib.) the amount of this that would have to be rewritten, from the ground, is 100%. not even useful as illustration of anything, because NONE of the actually complicated moving parts of a ☝︎☟︎
sina: erlehmann: for example https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd/blob/master/gossipd/cmd/gossipc.py#L68 ...it throws an error if you try to add a peer before an RSA key is available
sina: if anyone wants to play https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd ☟︎☟︎
sina: alright. the gossipd thingo is 0.0.1 implemented. peers can communicate, each session (fetch messages) is mediated by deedbot style OTP with per peer-pair RSA keys (no GPG shell asciilifeform, using libtomcrypt). I wrote a tiny client to add peers, exchange keys, broadcast msgs and view stored msgs. there is a README.
a111: Logged on 2016-03-01 03:53 asciilifeform: mats: the idea is, a kind of line-speed (GB ethernet) wall, where crud goes in, and valid in-wot gossipd out.
scriba: Logged on 2017-06-25: [03:01:01] <sina> was kind of hoping mp would be around as I have a few gossipd questions
scriba: Logged on 2017-06-24: [01:45:14] <sina> mod6: heya, not too bad, working on a gossipd impl!
sina: took me a fair bit of debugging but I got the gossipd thing going so it sends and receives messages. peer addition and message addition are manual commands atm, but it does work :D github.com/sinner-/gossipd
sina: I. Gossipd will have access to a read-onlyii databaseiii of identitiesiv known to it.
sina: was kind of hoping mp would be around as I have a few gossipd questions
sina: just going through those comments again trinque, e.g. http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-119015 "One possible cut of the Gordian Knot re: my "enemy's ability to trigger a response from a suspected-node on demand" would be for every node to have a "lighthouse" - an always-on broadcaster of authentication challenge strings." per the spec I will be implementing this
trinque: cool, was just curious which gossipd you meant.
trinque: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ << not following the thread then?
trinque: https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd/blob/master/gossipd/util/gpg.py#L3 << I lul'd
sina: https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd
sina: mod6: heya, not too bad, working on a gossipd impl!
asciilifeform: shinohai: that dun sound like gossipd, sounds moar like http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1490
shinohai: asciilifeform must ICO gossipd, everyone is doing it nao! http://archive.is/clQo7
mircea_popescu: thyis is a fractally repeating point : the reason "social learning" as modelled by redditards doesn't work irl is the indirection layer. the reason gossipd is undefeatable in practice is... the indirection layer.
sina: mircea_popescu: there is 159 comments on http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document
mircea_popescu: review the gossipd discussions, they're instructive on the topic.
sina: no here. gossipd, libsodium/nacl, trump...a few other things I searched
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, after writing that i recalled gossipd design and intentions (need to generate a lot of keys, and if it takes a month - so fucking be it)...
mircea_popescu: seems a sort of gossipd-over-tor
gabriel_laddel_p: But it presents a way to get off of "the web", and then swap the underlying networking implementation for gossipd, while retaining a usable UI throughout.
Framedragger: (cf. early gossipd designs, etc.)
asciilifeform: ( as for code -- in the end it mist be entirely self-contained. and provably correct. it's a backbone for, e.g., 'tmsr rsa', 'p', eventually gossipd, etc. )
mircea_popescu: well, as conclusive as it gets. see the gossipd design document comment section.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i don't think the discussion about say gossipd station keys vs 'main key' was necessarily finished? i realise that it ain't pretty
Framedragger: gossipd over radio, i'm very cereal.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-19 12:43 Framedragger: i could add www endpoint to scriba which would take in encrypt pgpgrams, and scriba would PM them to target. to avoid abuse etc., messages would need to be signed, tho. not sure how useful. (i'd maybe use this. could pgpgram while not connected to irc. maybe overthinking this before impending gossipd)
Framedragger: i could add www endpoint to scriba which would take in encrypt pgpgrams, and scriba would PM them to target. to avoid abuse etc., messages would need to be signed, tho. not sure how useful. (i'd maybe use this. could pgpgram while not connected to irc. maybe overthinking this before impending gossipd) ☟︎
asciilifeform: looks like we can all go home and eat nagant folx!11111 a hero has risen , and written gossipd in gendercommitlang!11111
asciilifeform: there is pretty clear effort being expended to 'heathenize' gossipd.
trinque: and when gossipd comes around and asciilifeform can dispense with www entirely, dispense with shithouse *and* shithouse creature
Framedragger: i'm waiting for the day that freenode goes down while datacenters with logotrons are experiencing issues. everyone's gonna freak out, there will be a new more urgent push for gossipd, it's gonna be great!
Framedragger: but then if things are coded correctly, it shouldn't be hard to swap irc for gossipd later, imho
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 01:00 Framedragger should write some kind of simple thingie which takes (1) keyword and (2) timestamp pairs as intervals, and produces a kind of wiki page for all given keywords. (2) can be amended later as needed. so that there'd be a page for gossipd without much effort at all
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-121602 (hey thread wasn't finished) :)
Framedragger: (this is just to juxtapose topics of trb and gossipd for a second and to maybe show why some folks really like the lighthouse idea) :)
Framedragger intends to set his mind to some p2p/gossipd stuff come summer, if moon phase aligns with karma etc.
Framedragger: re. priorities and (natural) lack of 'global amazing konsensus priority list of shit to do', in my humble and very noob mind they are something like; 'p'; gossipd or partial iteration towards it; invoicing system; << these three'd useful for outside-tmsr interests fo sho; and nfi re. trb, as on the one hand it's supposed to be super important,
asciilifeform: lel, i was wrong re their 'gossipd', it was written, by unknown commercial contractor: https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/files/Fluxwire_manual-3.5.0.pdf << docs.
asciilifeform: https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_36405256.html << re the 'internal gossipd', at the time of the writing appears to be entirely hypothetical
asciilifeform: possibly the funniest bit is the docs for their internal gossipd
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118994
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear to me how such a thing is an improvement over "just run your current trb through the future gossipd"
mircea_popescu: we'll have to have a gossipd sooner rather than later.
trinque: ben_vulpes: I'd rather get some gossipd work rolling than put any more effort into hugging the IRC turd tighter
asciilifeform: ZILLION GOSSIPD EXCHANGED!!
mircea_popescu: and you also don't "must have signed gossipd lines", either. there was a mega discussion re that also on gossipd thread
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it's quite unclear to me that gossipd need be related to this other thing
mircea_popescu: iirc it was cognate with gossipd.
Framedragger: but the thing *could* be developed orthogonally to gossipd's efforts, which is nice.
asciilifeform: 'requires 80% of gossipd' would be a stronger statement, but then i'd have to explain which 80
trinque: I was going to say the same, does require gossipd
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: feel free to suggest solution that does not 'require gossipd' but is also not perlistic ducttape.
ben_vulpes: davout: "impossible without gossipd" according to asciilifeform
Framedragger: yeah, gossipd client != browser. market share matters hm.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590857 << i guess so. i also guess that gns/gossipd are competing paradigms in terms of namespace / choosing how to name things. but they can also be orthogonal, i'd think.. ☝︎
Framedragger: i guess one may have a database of keys, as well as a table of signed-with-key nicknames which establish someone claiming a nickname for key? sort of gns. alternative scheme is to have any kind of aliasing be local, as per gossipd. less convenient for things like looking up nickname in wot.deedbot.org of course.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your 'cycle arbitrageur' is precisely the same devil as my cornered-node-creator and panopticonic gossipd observer.
phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)
phf: mircea_popescu: i misremembered, because later V in my mind merged with gossipd (http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1376781) ☝︎
trinque: dedicated gossipd hardware would be useful, even kbps slow
mircea_popescu: once gossipd, this objection entirely vanishes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576646 << was that the gossipd one ? ☝︎