tmsr - Log 2019-06-22

trinque: I want to apologize for my absence of late, been engaged in some sisyphean pushes elsewhere.

mp_en_viaje: what all is going on there, anyway ? i mean, if you'll need to (or for that matter, factually engage in) multi-week stone cold absences in the future, let's talk about it and take measures prospectively

mp_en_viaje: rather than find ourselves in the infinitely sadder situation of having to take measures retrospectively.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-21#1919128 << yours is no small, but rather eminently the ur-update, not to mention transparently ~everyone's experience. ☝︎☟︎☟︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-21 00:58 lobbes: small update: I've been inundated the last few weeks with $saltmines work; tsmr work ~0 during this time. however, these next two weeks will be somewhat clearer so I'll be back to eating through modlisp

deedbot: 2019/05/30 15:08:03 <ave1> ty asciilifeform

deedbot: 2019/05/12 19:29:42 <bvt> (talking about rk3399 here)

deedbot: 2019/06/12 07:31:47 <spyked> I'd made a small toy proggy to draw a mandelbrot set, zoom in etc. when the time came to show it, no one in the room even knew what a fractal was, although ~all~ the teachers there were math-informatics graduates

mp_en_viaje: besideswhich big round nothing, Mocky 's latest accomplishment as far as anyone knows would be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-27#1915592 ; phf 's latest accomplishment as far as anyone knows is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-10#1917869 ☝︎☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-05-27 11:53 Mocky: just got back from a hiking trip. catching up on logs

a111: Logged on 2019-06-10 20:39 phf: craziest thing, i forgot my gpg password for about 5 days. was walking around trying to remember parts of it, obviously couldn't get access to anything meanwhile

mp_en_viaje: may 27th is week 22 ; june 10 is week 24. we're just about starting week 26, because yes, there's a finite number of weeks in any one year, and it's known in advance : 52 of 'em. once june ends so will have ended half of 2019. ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: i have no idea how the fuck everyone's so rapidly settled mentally in this novel and apparently great new kanzure-republic of 2019, but i do not find myself comfortable here AT ALL.

mp_en_viaje: leaving aside how a rate of progress of 0 items / week for week after week after livelong week puts extremely low demands on my time and attention -- far, far from requiring it be a central locus of my focus, republican 2019 as seen so far would have worked just as well if i gave it an hour biweekly, and i don't mean twice a week, i mean every other week -- there's just no need to keep the engine running on big brutus for the "j ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: ust in case" one needs flowerpots excavated, three times in may for a quart of dirt total volume in nine pots :

mp_en_viaje: we have no workable bitcoin nor any sort or kind of measurable progress towards one ; we have no working os, and not only is there no progress towards one but as best as i can discern the situation's rather turning in the direction of "buried in concrete" ; we eminently do not have any sort of meat acquisition system going, while pizarro can't get customers and all dpb can be bothered to do is ~USE IT~ to try and get meat for th ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: e stupidest thing he could have possibly found, and possibly the stupidest thing on planet earth altogether, a bunch of morons in rural flyover.

mp_en_viaje: nobody has a castle worth the mention, the last item in http://trilema.com/category/bitcoin/ is still the 12th MARCH freenode issue, in one word at the rate we're presently going at the rate we are currently going the next april lordship update comes bundled with a tmsr shutdown notice, because god help me if ima preside over another pompous donothing club.

mp_en_viaje: the theory went that bitcoin corrupts the fiatards, yet somehow magically everyone's pete_dushenski now, so fascinatingly seductive's his empty nothingness to the postmodern mind or what the fuck on wheels' goin' on!

mp_en_viaje: and yes ima negrate dpb just as soon as i get to my main keys, he's too fucking busy to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-12#1918049 while http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-20#1919091 all day long ? because what, what the fuck's this republic, everyone's suburban helicopter mom, to roll eyes at while eating her sandwiches and thinking about how to steal shit from the house to curry favour with a bunch of morons in school ? ☝︎☝︎☟︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-12 14:52 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, ?

a111: Logged on 2019-06-20 21:50 BingoBoingo: He's evangelizing his church on EFNet where there are no cloaks

bvt: hello. i am also sorry for my unacceptably low output over past ~2 months; and particularly sorry of not doing the right thing of notifying the forum (which i did before)

bvt: i do expect that 'saltmine season' is over now -- i've been working on asming karatsuba squaring (ffa ch.12b) over this week, post expected tomorrow. ☟︎

bvt: oh, and re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-24#1909684 -- i wrote to the dude back then, he promised to respond in a week 'after travelling', never came back to we afterwards ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 15:56 asciilifeform: !Q later tell bvt ty for digging up the 1801 materials; dun suppose you could get the author in here ?

mp_en_viaje: of course. and the only live dude found in the whole gfx stack for a non-fiat game http://logs.minigame.biz/2019-06-13.log.html#t22:07:21

lobbesbot: Logged on 2019-06-13 22:07:21: <mp3butcher> it would be interesting.. let me think about it ...see you tomorrow

mp_en_viaje: the resistive load is nothing short of immense, for some reason anything's preferred to doing the right thing.

mp_en_viaje: bvt, so what's your idea going forward anyway ? are you basically going to be doing some ffa as you fiat overlod permit now and again, so by the end of 2019 you can look at having completed chapter 22 or somesuch, and that'll have been it ?

mp_en_viaje: there's nothing wrong with training -- but there's also no lordship for trainees. it just dun make sense, like that.

mp_en_viaje: one gotta train, yes, out of the question such a prince naseem idiocy as the figther who doesn't train. but training alone does not make the pie.

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919159 << i'm burned out from my recent misadventures, i've taken several approaches to both republican and secural work, and i'm failing to load it in my brain, or make any kind of dent ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:36 mp_en_viaje: besideswhich big round nothing, Mocky 's latest accomplishment as far as anyone knows would be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-27#1915592 ; phf 's latest accomplishment as far as anyone knows is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-10#1917869

danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919170 << i was waiting for them to get it working, as i irc from the pizarro shared host, and it was down for a day ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:58 mp_en_viaje: and yes ima negrate dpb just as soon as i get to my main keys, he's too fucking busy to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-12#1918049 while http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-20#1919091 all day long ? because what, what the fuck's this republic, everyone's suburban helicopter mom, to roll eyes at while eating her sandwiches and thinking about how to steal shit from the house to curry favour with a bunch of morons in school ?

danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-20#1919062 << probably not; just some random efnetter who likes to flex his ddos. he apparently was doing it to everyone in that buddhism chat, and it had nothing to do with my evangelizing ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-20 20:19 BingoBoingo: !Qlater tell danielpbarron Was this latest DDoS another member of your fan club?

a111: Logged on 2019-06-20 21:48 asciilifeform: i do not begrudge danielpbarron his ddos laboratory, but imho he really oughta do it on rk.

danielpbarron: i'm sorry for the disruption, and for now i will refrain from connecting to efnet (where there is no host masking)

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919157 <-- apologies for the lack of an update, I'm still neck-deep in hunchentoot study; I have a full draft of the monster ready in the workroom, but before publishing, I'm making sure I have a good understanding of the item, to avoid getting my ass bitten by unknown unknowns in the future ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:33 mp_en_viaje: !!seen spyked

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919162 << can't speak for other folx, but asciilifeform wrote 7 ch. of ffa thus far in '19 (featuring errything to do with primes, and all of peh, plus tutorials on the latter) and expect to wrap up 8th (# 20) before june is out. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:37 mp_en_viaje: may 27th is week 22 ; june 10 is week 24. we're just about starting week 26, because yes, there's a finite number of weeks in any one year, and it's known in advance : 52 of 'em. once june ends so will have ended half of 2019.

asciilifeform: on top of this, buncha other '19 material, in various stages of publication ( e.g. the mips ; massive pile of bolix material, O(1) adatronic db replacement for trb , not published yet; and coupla other ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-15 19:14 asciilifeform: aim is a 'mips 4000' compat. item (for ease of hardwarization, when time comes) if anyone cares. and at some pt will also have to port gnat, cuntoo... to it.

asciilifeform: ch20 incidentally is 1 of the components for keccak. (after have all of keccak, we have full battlefield rsatron. THAT IS if folx actually bother to read & sign the chs! so far ~no one~ but asciilifeform signed any 2019 ch's... )

asciilifeform: ( anyone worked through barrett ? it's the 1 ~original~ proof in the series, thus far )

diana_coman: asciilifeform: I did and I even found it easier than previous material though I'm not sure why; ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919174 << ftr i find bvt's asm work quite useful, and it will be incorporated into the flagship vtree when i get a chance. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 07:09 bvt: i do expect that 'saltmine season' is over now -- i've been working on asming karatsuba squaring (ffa ch.12b) over this week, post expected tomorrow.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919184 << sad to hear that phf is in this condition. hey phf can you at least throw bring the ffa patches/sigs on btcbase up to date ? i think i asked 3x already... surely this takes less than 10min on your end ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 07:36 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919159 << i'm burned out from my recent misadventures, i've taken several approaches to both republican and secural work, and i'm failing to load it in my brain, or make any kind of dent

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919191 << yes it's rockchip and yes available, there's a brand-new and entirely vacant one, it was discussed at length in the log ! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 07:44 danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-20#1919087 << is rk a rockchip? are there any available? what's it cost?

asciilifeform: keep in mind that piz subscriptions are not available to folx who get drummed out tho ! danielpbarron perhaps can avoid ? if starts doing sumthing useful ☝︎

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yes, just as long as we're not looking at june specifically. not to mention managing BingoBoingo / pizarro, such that the man has nfi what the cost structure's like and so following.

mircea_popescu: spyked, it is infinitely more valuable to have regular, fixed and SMALL intervals update, than to "achiever heroic tasks" or whatever idiocy the usual engineer shitbrain'susually after.

mircea_popescu: the sort of "before publishing, I'm making sure" idiocy is exactly, but i do mean exactly, of the same substance as the fat girl's "this donut has no calories". it uses the exact same parts of the brain in the exact same way. ☟︎

diana_coman: fwiw I can add from experience that no amount of making sure is actually...making sure.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919166 << trinque sweated out a draft cuntoo, which sadly i have not had chance to test in anger. i have a physical box that is destined for it , when get chance, and also will be porting it to the sim-mips, ditto. but i promised to mircea_popescu not to undertake any elaborate works until ffa suitable for 'discard gpg' and extension to other (gossipd, trbi, what else is waiting on it) paths ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:47 mp_en_viaje: we have no workable bitcoin nor any sort or kind of measurable progress towards one ; we have no working os, and not only is there no progress towards one but as best as i can discern the situation's rather turning in the direction of "buried in concrete" ; we eminently do not have any sort of meat acquisition system going, while pizarro can't get customers and all dpb can be bothered to do is ~USE IT~ to try and get meat for th

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right, and iirc test resulted in open questions ( item not yet fully replicable, but no one knows precisely why ) ☟︎

mircea_popescu: trinque, for some reason, deedbot's not answering !!withdrawal !!v's anymore. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: and since i've been stuck doing a shitload of these by [slave]hand : the gpg format is fucking TERRIBLE, the small/caps duality is sheer idiocy (90+% of all errors and general slowdown on top of it because of shift) ;

mircea_popescu: a very useful tool for dropping the workload from ~50 minutes to ~30 minutes / otp is s/\n/" | sha512sum | cut -c1-2 >> hurr.txt \necho "/ and then comparing the line crcs.

mircea_popescu: which makes me believe republican format otp should actually come as xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx [yyyy] blocks

a111: 2019-05-30 <ave1> ty asciilifeform

mircea_popescu: yes. evidently the risskis put some actual work into establishing the format, rather than just seat of pants like the empire of stupid.

mircea_popescu: and speaking of empire of stupid, the "lead story" for the past coupla days has been this incredible idiocy piece about how the femstate discovering it does not actually have operational capacity to launch planes / bomb places anymore is nevertheless a good thing, because "humanitarian" or some dumb shit.

asciilifeform: ( groups of 5, with 5th symbol being checksum, would imho be ideal -- then can report eggog on group when keying )

mircea_popescu: next on cnn, a stupid cunt taking a dump in her own mouth. it gotta happen, because literally every other self-crit / over the top humiliation has been done to death.

mircea_popescu: the procedure, transparently from empirical data as well as doubtless following their bayesian deductive logic would be, that since they no longer have the capacity to nuke anyone, it then follows they'll necessarily win a nuke war -- in the imagination.

asciilifeform: admittedly asciilifeform not had time to follow pantsuit press. last i knew they helpfully assembled the old carrier fleet into a convenient shooting gallery for iran. (who for some reason not taken advantage yet)

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919210 << nevermind the "sad". phf you can either talk about it an' get it fixed, or otherwise keep nursing it Framedragger style. there's no practical options otherwise. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 13:49 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919184 << sad to hear that phf is in this condition. hey phf can you at least throw bring the ffa patches/sigs on btcbase up to date ? i think i asked 3x already... surely this takes less than 10min on your end

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i expected that finally making it to ru would be morale booster for phf. ( evidently not? wai not ? )

mircea_popescu: !!rate danielpbarron -10 used to hang around here, meanwhile found greener pastures.

deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7GMN1/?raw=true

mircea_popescu: now for yet another half hour episode of driving the-sorta-people-nobody-here-knows-how-to-replace blind on nonsense strings.

asciilifeform: ( perhaps aside from frank herbert's 'mentats', who are unfortunately fictional... )

Mocky: mircea_popescu: I've failed at managing myself for the last few months. I let myself get overwhelmed with dumb shit. I thought I could do it all despite the evidence to the contrary. Republican work got dropped along with a bunch of other. But republican work is what I care about and not the dumb shit. So I'm changing this now. Head in the sand is no way to live and putting others in the position to say, 'hey, wtf ☟︎

Mocky: I got my blob migrated over to mp_wp, but got hung up on theme changes. I'm going to go live with it and fix the theme later. I need to have a functional blog

Mocky: my work on gns is at the stage where I'm loading v fully into my head and making sure I know the questions I need to ask before I start implementing. I'll blog about it ☟︎

asciilifeform: Mocky: bouncer (znc or similar) . if yer in an especially dire shithole, may have to hang it (or the ssh tunnel leading to it ) on port 80

asciilifeform: historically this aint the problem, tho, in '16 asciilifeform was stuck in such a snakepit, could speak all he wanted , but could not ~think~

asciilifeform: Mocky: it was the sorta job that destroys yer head, like cerebral equiv. of black lung.

asciilifeform: Mocky: for bonus ugh, politruk showed up erry day to ask asciilifeform when he'd agree to take holy orders 'and start the interesting projs'

a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 03:07 asciilifeform: zx2c4: you may find it interesting to learn that i once worked in a dour 'salt mine' where shat out 'correctness proof' all day. in 'sage.'

asciilifeform: it was funny, was hired in the 1st place for 'solving' problem apriori known to be a squared circle, 'homomorphic crypto'.

asciilifeform: i suppose taking day job as astrologer went ok for kepler. but he was after all kepler. did not go well for asciilifeform .

bvt: mircea_popescu: i guess that there two components in your question. the easy is ffa: is agree that my ffa-related output is underwhelming for a lord, however 1) i don't expect that it will eat much more time (at ch.14 i'll see if there is really need for further asming, the anticipated answer is "not really") 2) i find speedup from asming generally useful, so i don't think the time i spent on it is wasted. ☟︎

bvt: after ffa I will have a look at other things (like ripping out kernel rng, having another look at gnat-arm64 internals, as it seems there is no ongoing work on this front atm). i expect to get something useful as a result, and maintain it in long term.

bvt: the hard part is 'fiat overlord' and being able to dedicate stable amounts of time to republican work, for this i don't have an acceptable answer.

asciilifeform: re: loose ends: fwiw asciilifeform did in fact add the final missing piece to mipstron. BUT! can't test with the dummkopf's orig linux image as he... guess wat, his system had little-endian word accesses but big-endian byte read/write ! so his image in fact will boot on NO existing mips, nor any afaik other emulator. ☝︎☟︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-15 19:10 asciilifeform: emulates errything but the page table mechanism, which is somewhat gnarly even on mips (tho miniscule compared to pc's)

asciilifeform: ( 13kB executable, fwiw, uses no libc (no libs at all), and no linux syscalls beyond mmap & console i/o )

asciilifeform: imho a Trooly Sane arch ought not to even permit sub-word addressing. as e.g. lispm did not.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919279 << ftr i do not think it is waste. i expect that most 'realtime' applications (e.g. 'gossip') will want the asmistic ffa. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 16:41 bvt: mircea_popescu: i guess that there two components in your question. the easy is ffa: is agree that my ffa-related output is underwhelming for a lord, however 1) i don't expect that it will eat much more time (at ch.14 i'll see if there is really need for further asming, the anticipated answer is "not really") 2) i find speedup from asming generally useful, so i don't think the time i spent on it is wasted.

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 13:59 mircea_popescu: trinque, for some reason, deedbot's not answering !!withdrawal !!v's anymore.

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919226 << where I left it is "operator still has to understand linux to use the thing" ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 13:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right, and iirc test resulted in open questions ( item not yet fully replicable, but no one knows precisely why )

trinque: and perhaps this is what's wanted, but the ubuntu-like installer that supports all hardware without anyone needing to learn to spin a linux kernel is a different kind of item ☟︎

trinque: but at any rate, none of the above is a counterargument to the "republic does things, or isn't."

asciilifeform: trinque: re the 'iron babel', asciilifeform strongly suspects that a standardized 'textbook' arch, even with 'artificial' (soft) rather than troo iron available, would be of much use re cuntooism

a111: Logged on 2019-06-15 19:09 asciilifeform: ftr, during 'vacation' wrote a vehehery rought draft of item prev. discussed in log

asciilifeform: cuz imho an envir where you can build yer os/proggies at home, then upload whole thing to piz (or even yer own box wherever) an' run, and then snapshot, download state, run again at home, or (exotica) sync 2 running instances -- would be a win ☟︎

trinque: yeah, containers in the abstract are extremely handy tools, just all the implementations are mountains of garbage.

asciilifeform: afaik 'container' heathenism usually refers to orc attempts at circumventing os lack of static linkage, rather than whole-os in bottle

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if when i get up find it, will post. loox like might be deep in a hedge.

asciilifeform: trinque: since you seem to be familiar with subj : outta curiosity, do any of the heathen 'cloud'isms allow user to run same 'machine' on multiple irons in lockstep ?

asciilifeform: i.e. connect to one, its state changes, and it sends message to others, which majoritate ? ☟︎

trinque: upstack, it's not just a step around lack of static linking, but also deterministic reproduction of config state

asciilifeform: it's funny, imho, how heathens fucked the softs stack to the point where it actually makes sense to pass a whole-machine state around

asciilifeform: ( which afaik they do not do , 'because slow', cuz nobody can be arsed to asm iguess )

asciilifeform: rright, ditto 'vmware' etc. but can you force'em to auto-synchronize the state on 2 physically separate boxen

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/06/british-couple-found-guilty-of-funding-terrorism-for-sending-trivial-sum-to-son/ << Qntra -- British Couple Found Guilty Of Funding Terrorism For Sending Trivial Sum To Son

asciilifeform: ( given that deterministic mechanism will transition to same state always from given state + given input )

asciilifeform: trinque: correct. if your 'processors' dun have to deal with rando liquishit from whole planet at once, but only w/ authentic peers, it becomes practical proposition.

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/06/oregon-government-in-chaos-as-minority-party-boycotts-pantsuit-legislation/ << Qntra -- Oregon Government In Chaos As Minority Party Boycotts Pantsuit Legislation

Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919333 << this is done for certain multiplayer video games where pixel identical frames need to be shown to remote players. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:59 asciilifeform: the 'secret' of this is that you only gotta propagate the ~inputs~ .

Mocky: in practice it's 2 players only and considered a feature of the physics engine, even so often laggy as hell

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919261 << what i find deeply irritating it's that it tends to be republican work that gets dropped in such situations. ☝︎☟︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 15:08 Mocky: mircea_popescu: I've failed at managing myself for the last few months. I let myself get overwhelmed with dumb shit. I thought I could do it all despite the evidence to the contrary. Republican work got dropped along with a bunch of other. But republican work is what I care about and not the dumb shit. So I'm changing this now. Head in the sand is no way to live and putting others in the position to say, 'hey, wtf

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 15:18 Mocky: my work on gns is at the stage where I'm loading v fully into my head and making sure I know the questions I need to ask before I start implementing. I'll blog about it

trinque: speaking of which, if ave1 is not going to produce an ebuild for his gcc, I imagine that's next priority on my end.

mircea_popescu: bvt i don't think it's wasted either ; and for that matter came off too strong on the side of whatever my point was there.

trinque: build process automation, recall what I wrote produces a v-tree of ebuilds sufficient to have a booting linux

mod6: trinque: Speaking of an ebuild for ave1's musltronic tools, I've got one that works. I've also got one for diana_coman's keccak V tools package.

mircea_popescu: traditionally most everyone uses autoconf/automake for build automation fwis. well, at least eulora does.

mod6: I still consider them "in-progress", but will forward what I have along to you here by Monday. (I wanted to get these ones built before the trb one - which I'm just starting on now.)

mod6: There will be a blog post I make about how I want through the ebuild process, but probably closer to month-end.

mircea_popescu: i don't think it permits the notion of "package". but it will press to your intended destination, all leaves up to it.

trinque: I can see the continuous symbolic space mircea_popescu wants, but the cuntoo thing was exactly "capture these packages before they can't even be built anymore" plus a snapshot of a working build toolchain to do so.

mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with it, it was so by agreement and deliberately not accidentally. now the problem of digestion, however...

mircea_popescu: if we wanted fucking portage we could have just imported portage. but i think we just as deliberately did NOT want it ; we wanted v.

mircea_popescu: and the reasons we wanted v were very much specifically and centrally "so such a thing as portage is can NOT be had, and such problems as it solves can not be solved"

asciilifeform: re autoconf, asciilifeform considers autoconfism an evil, and none of his productions ever used it or ever will

mircea_popescu: i am not even disputing that. i think large projects (ie, again, eulora) used it as a ... well, default evil. "gotta use something, wtf can do".

a111: 32 results for "from:asciilifeform autoconf", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20autoconf

mircea_popescu: much, i suspect, like why and wherefore trinque 's stuck with ebuilds. "wtf do you want me to do, make sense of gentoo in my spare time !?!?!"

asciilifeform: and yes legacy crapola that nobody got around to deautoconfing yet, do use, there's 9000 on my boxen. but what i touch with own hands , away it goes

mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem remains, however, that a sufficiently large c/cpp code snippet will not build on any machine.

asciilifeform: but e.g. trb , pretty heavy, 0 autoconf (in the proggy per se, that is; there is some in the deps, however)

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'ebuilds', as i understand trinque's angle was/is to organically replace gentoo's ebuild duct tape with vtron

mircea_popescu: all this said, i don't believe if someone wrote an ebuilds for say ffa they'd thereby degrade ffa.

asciilifeform: it'd be a very trivial ebuild, lol. given as uses gprbuild, which actually worx correctly.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, the main problem here seems to be "what allowances to build system do we make in the fundamental"

mircea_popescu: and yes indeedy, i'd much rather mandate a "your project must buuld on gprbuild" than a "your project must include ebuild", if there's mandatin'.

asciilifeform: ftr ada's 'gprbuild' is the 1st 'make'-like automator asciilifeform ever used that he did not want to throw against the wall erryday

mircea_popescu: he has a point there, in that at least portage will emerge a complete world, for whatever any other complaints one might harbor

asciilifeform: aha, it's moar or less lang-agnostic. but it also is an orc half-implementation of v (attempts to find dependencies, and to check sigs, but for some reason the latter is optional, and the former only quasi-worx)

mircea_popescu: trinque, do me a favour an' state the problem in yoru own words so as to see how synced we're here

trinque: mircea_popescu: we currently stand on a pile of hellish complexity that costs more man-lives than we have to transition to a form we'd find acceptable.

mircea_popescu: if gotta-have-python anyway, why am i wasting spyked's time with hutch&hoot, might as well use python for scripting.

diana_coman: fwiw re gprbuild and legacy c/cpp-ism: cal3d lib builds with gprbuild absolutely fine; CS however not at all and it's not a trivial thing to port it either as far as I could tell at a quick look.

trinque: my intent here has been to stablize the workbench and then make a *hard* break with the whole stack ☟︎

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, nor will anything else made by idiots, which is to say 70% of the kernel and 95% of the userspace.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho python is one of the cheapest heathenisms to perma-kill. if e.g. spyked's miniature lisp could be grown to adulthood, can dispense with python/perl/bash/etc

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, not if gotta ebuild. if you ebuild, suddenly python lives forever.

asciilifeform: observe that v itself , orig asciilifeform wrote in python, on napkin, but since re-baked by many folx many times in other scriptrons

mircea_popescu: i personally doubt such a thing as a lisp portage can be made. but then again i have no coding experience.

asciilifeform: there is even a (sad, disused, esthlos went to bottom of sea) but last i saw -- working -- cl vtron

asciilifeform: the remaining 5% is to make it eat the ancient ebuild format. supposing that's even what we want, what with it having 'optional' sigs etc

trinque: ebuilds are on their 6th or 7th format revision; they're as much imperative code as they're declarative metadata

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919415 << i must point out, this item imho is orthogonal to the problem of this thrd, a standard 'machine' does not remove the need for proper 'systemwide vtron'-aka-portage-replacement ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 21:34 trinque: asciilifeform's mips-vm thing could be one candidate for the hard break

trinque: last dive I took into the portage code, it appeared to be filled with steps around either bugs in linux or packages

asciilifeform: the heathens ftr took up this fallacy ( 'who needs reproducible builds, we have vmware' ) and have written themselves into some pretty amazing corners ('what did you say, you wanted to BUILD 'rails' from src? no one has done this since 2011... here have a vm' etc)

asciilifeform: trinque: i gotta say, i cannot picture any legit reason why an ebuild would contain imperative code

mircea_popescu: they built this magical workaround their own idiocy. what the hell could it possibly consist of besides the devil himself ?

a111: 10 results for "ifdefism", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ifdefism

mircea_popescu: well yes, but look here : at some point we decided to save the state of computing, specifically to avoid this "nobody has built since 2011, here have a virtual machine"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct. and 1ce you 'saved state', you dun need 'if bug xxxxxx...'. cuz you ~already know~ whether this evaluates to troo or false

mircea_popescu: we currently know ~nothing about the ~100mn lines of crap that constitute any machine anyone actually boots into. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-02 03:43 mircea_popescu: all joking aside : the best answer i could produce for the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-01#1916471 question stands as "choose between steamos and ubuntu", which in plain terms is "do you wish to make your computer a supernintendo and buy virtual cartridges for it ? or would you rather make your computer a mobile phone ?"

mircea_popescu: and your solution seems to me a bit of smoke and magic, because what will you use to manage "which v tree, dec or pc" ? a vortage ?

asciilifeform: asciilifeform was able to cut several MB from ye olde gnu mpi (which today lives in diana_coman's 'eucrypt') simply by beheading the #ifdef dec_vax... and #ifdef xenix... etc

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i described this in the orig ifdefism thread. the solution is to stop pretending that coad worx on boxen where no one in living memory had ever tested it and signed. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yer card runs on closed vendorblob, neh. how would that even make it into a cuntoo-portage or vtree at all.

mircea_popescu: if tomorrow we have a ffa-for-pc and a ffa-for-mips alternative, there WILL BE AN IFDEF.

asciilifeform: which diverse at the point where you added asmism or whatever it is that marries it to given $irons

asciilifeform: when i pull disk out of binder to install os, already pick the 1 where wrote down the type of cpu for which it was, neh

asciilifeform: it aint 'ifdefism' if you dun have two incompatible items which purport to inhabit the same vtree.

asciilifeform: the problem of 'ifdef' is the clusterfuck where i am given to sign a patch that includes '#ifdef vax' but i dun have a vax. and dun intend to.

asciilifeform: so i tell the fella with the vax, 'go and make this its own tree, give it to fellow vaxers to sign, not to me'.

trinque: possibly tangent, but imho there needs to be a distinction between the language of the gods (and the rules thereof) and handbook of suitable places to take a shit.

mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here is the implicit dwim-ism involved in "i don't have a vax/dec/cuisinart, i have a COMPUTER, as in the abstract"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when he bought cpu, presumably he knows which one he bought, neh

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you personally own a box where you do not know which cpu is installed ?

mircea_popescu: i mitigate this problem by very pointedly only buying certain kinds / classes. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: trinque, if everyone includes ebuilds of everything and in a few years' time everyone's just doing portage because "it's easier, man" ima be very damn sad. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's nothing to do between a gun and a computer. a gun is a tool. a c omputer is a piece of shit.

asciilifeform: and this is when we learned that mircea_popescu dun have a scale in his toilet lol

mircea_popescu: you understand this, yes ? there's no definite utility to computers. for all the promises of grandeur and wunderbarness, a gun's a gun's a gun, and a computer's a smartphone's a tivo.

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 22:01 mircea_popescu: trinque, if everyone includes ebuilds of everything and in a few years' time everyone's just doing portage because "it's easier, man" ima be very damn sad.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if pc were a small arm, i'd say would be 'zip gun' made from old brass pipe and paperclip, at this pt in time

asciilifeform: (or, charitably, the old chinese 'leather cannon', 50% likelihood of nailing either artilleryman or enemy )

mircea_popescu: trinque, yes, but how about actually giving this teeth from the get go, in the sense of working out some sort of something that both conserves the gains and opens up gentoo to being raped raw

mircea_popescu: so then don't go at me with "calibers" and other such selg-aggrandizing nonsense, mr alchemist man.

asciilifeform: what can i say, i cannot speak for mircea_popescu , but i have never bought a 'mystery pc' where i have nfi apriori what os to even attempt on it

trinque: my contention is there won't be gentoo to speak of in that world, which is desirable, and far ahead yet.

mircea_popescu: trinque, let's go at this a different path. what would you even do with a trb ebuild ?

asciilifeform: corollary to this q : how would a 'trb ebuild' differ from the trb vtree as it stands ?

mircea_popescu: i mean, maybe all local wot failed to sign a patch portage deemed essential so it downloaded it from power-rangers.net. yes ?

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 22:00 mircea_popescu: i mitigate this problem by very pointedly only buying certain kinds / classes.

mircea_popescu: at the very rock bottom of this : the ~deal~ of portage is that it installs things for you without you necessarily understanding why. this is the pay-off, yes, "you don't have to be concerned with every little detail" or however it goes. and the cost for this is, that you don't get to understand how it installs things for you. because ultimately, you don't, whether you want to or not entirely immaterial, ungermane an' spur

asciilifeform: this resembles asciilifeform's orig. argument against having to write vtron -- 'just press the fucking patches by hand, lazy people'. but mircea_popescu didn't buy it then, so had to write vtron.

trinque: the deal of portage is it does what'd otherwise be days of pointless labor untarring and making programs to stand up a new system

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:06 trinque: lmk if still not getting anything

mircea_popescu: so is rather the problem that v-tron doesn't come with the right toolkit ? should get a tar and an interface for make ?

trinque: yep, if it had a sensible build system, and the work was done to port needed items to that build system, portage would be obviated

trinque: what orchestrates building A first, then B, and finally C that links A and B, is portage

mircea_popescu: i suppose the one true break here, is that portage system actually excepts to build and link by bits. "out of the codemass intended to be used, arbitrarily selected portion A is built and linked first, producing object files, then B is built and linked against those binaries"

mircea_popescu: whereas implicit v-ism would be "all code is made one pile, then built once and linked, and that's it". ☟︎

mircea_popescu: in this context then, if we decide we like the "packages" abstraction, for whatever reason, the obvious solution would be to maintain ebuilds of various vtrees as packages, and emerge them into a desired pile together.

mircea_popescu: whereas if we decide we dislike the "packages" abstraction (and not merely dislike it a little bit, but quite a lot, enough to justify a lot of rewriting) then the available solution's to just make one big v tree. coming with the obvious problem that if indeed the whole world's just one tree, then trying to play BOTH duke nukem AND warcraft 2 will result in two copies of the kernel compiled, like if we were idiots.

mircea_popescu: trinque, do me a favour and also encrypt to http://wot.deedbot.org/208FE107E970F53262C4951232992F13CFA6CD06.asc so i don't have to wake up the girls to do ahlf hour of typing for me again

mircea_popescu: you don't mean "pls try again" as in, issue command again ? as opposed to "put !!v strings in again" ? do you ?

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 16:43 asciilifeform: re: loose ends: fwiw asciilifeform did in fact add the final missing piece to mipstron. BUT! can't test with the dummkopf's orig linux image as he... guess wat, his system had little-endian word accesses but big-endian byte read/write ! so his image in fact will boot on NO existing mips, nor any afaik other emulator.

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:07 trinque: I noticed that not a soul read the scripts that bootstrap cuntoo

a111: Logged on 2018-07-23 14:08 diana_coman: eulora server is happily compiling on proto-cuntoo with ave1's gnat+gcc; all tests passed so far, LOC greatly reduced too, loads of shit cleaned away and discarded; we are looking forward to move it to production, so any eta for cuntoo?

a111: Logged on 2018-11-27 18:18 diana_coman: asciilifeform, smg's test machine is running proto-cuntoo so it's not just any gentoo really

a111: Logged on 2019-06-04 12:12 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-04#1917013 -> until we change OS basically; the test one was step towards Cuntoo and that's pretty much the only real reason for having 2 since playing around with the OS on a production server is rather iffy.

mircea_popescu: hewhet.net/2019/03/hanbots-cuntoo-bake-test-notes-part-iv/ spanning a coupla months.

mircea_popescu: now, if you wish for your takeaway from this to be "hanbot is not cool enough to run cuntoo" that's your priviledge, but i tell you i don't see the wisdom. for the same money you could say you never read the damned scripts, and butress the claim on eg http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-06#1893199 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-02-06 04:21 trinque: hanbot: hm, this got right past me. the cuntoo builder is 64bit only at the present.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919297 << there's an immense difference between usability and nurturing idiocy. yes, "not walking into open flame" is basic test of cns functionality ; nevertheless patterns of bursting flames on timers are found in video game platformers, not in between one's bedroom and bathroom. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:09 trinque: and perhaps this is what's wanted, but the ubuntu-like installer that supports all hardware without anyone needing to learn to spin a linux kernel is a different kind of item

mircea_popescu: this isn't because "we're building housing for the sort of braindead morons who literally can not avoid walking into fire", but because "holy shit, spending life avoiding spurious pitfalls is such a sad way to go about things".

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919303 << this may work. my takeaway was that item could benefit from a little polish, a few choice one-liners added to documentation/comments, that sorta thing ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:17 trinque: perhaps all that's needed there is a cut ISO.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919311 << i think this is running in the wrong direction. just more shit to break / require rubber bads / touching just so and etc. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:22 asciilifeform: cuz imho an envir where you can build yer os/proggies at home, then upload whole thing to piz (or even yer own box wherever) an' run, and then snapshot, download state, run again at home, or (exotica) sync 2 running instances -- would be a win

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:36 asciilifeform: i.e. connect to one, its state changes, and it sends message to others, which majoritate ?

a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 19:03 trinque: these communicating over gossipd makes a pretty clear picture

mircea_popescu to bed. but ima try to be on tomorro (tho prolly on the viaje nick) because it seems to me there's two different layers of unhapiness preventing cuntoo from making meaningful progress, neither of which properly gotten to the bottom of.

mircea_popescu: one somethong to do with trinque 's unhapiness with the cuntoo userbase ; the other something to do with wtf to do re v & portage/ebuilds.