trinque: heh, I was sent to a black elementary school under some kind of diversity program.
trinque: and look, I turned out fine
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform grew up in orcistan with tetraethyl-pb petrol, also 'turned out fine', lol
asciilifeform: dun make te-pb a great thing.
trinque recalibrates his sarcasm emitter
shinohai: "This is what *not* to do!"
ben_vulpes: leaded gas is AWESOME.
ben_vulpes: unbelieeeevable specific heat
trinque: I mean, they wanted me to have a cultural experience outside my own, and... did.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ~0 effect on specific heat
asciilifeform: trinque: ahahahaha in that sense it's great. i'm pretty happy i went to one in usa
asciilifeform: lifetime vaccine against equalism.
trinque: aha
ben_vulpes: aaaaah right
trinque: I even got almost expelled for racis
trinque: beat the fuck out of some kid that stole my recess hat, threw to friend
trinque: I guess in the movie, kid goes and runs to friend to get the hat
trinque: I just beat his face in
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> lifetime vaccine against equalism. << AHA, I ad to get vaccinated later at college for that
mircea_popescu: trinque the theory isn't that it actually does anything ; the idea is that the ~reason~ they thought they're doing it was pretty dumb.
mircea_popescu: the most amusing example being that in 1817, back when "miscegenation" was a serious offence, and in 2017, when "bbc" is kinda fashionable, the prevalence of black-white mixed kids born was ~same. cuz exogamy is a behaviour and society is a blather, guess which comes later.
asciilifeform: the actual reason is the one described in 'death of the american city' -- j00z & puritans allied to nuke the irish and polish catholics in usa
mircea_popescu: sure. and ended up with vietnamese nationalism.
asciilifeform: set up the necessary blathers, 'movements', etc.
mircea_popescu: or w/e, serbs.
mircea_popescu: trinque> I just beat his face in << better strategy. "bitch, by the time i'm done with you, your mom's gonna be begging to bring me my hat in her snatch every weekend after nine."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741741 << this is pretty good tbh.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 18:36 asciilifeform: in other noose, ffa elf on x86-64 with no inlinings and stripped .a , is ~50kB
asciilifeform: relatedly, asciilifeform sawed ffa into independent subunits ( e.g. mults, bitops, divides, etc. ) for smooth compilation, reading, and blogomatics.
mod6: cool
asciilifeform: will become a series of essays-cum-coad
asciilifeform: also moved from make to gprbuild
asciilifeform: ( ditches the gnumake dependency, and much shorter and more makessensical process )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741759 << this is actually a good point.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 19:38 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741179 << you can just ignore the whole "string" question in first version, McCarthy's lisp used symbols instead of strings (that's why early nlp code, like eliza all come out as DOG SAID, HELLO) and the only operation you could do at some point was read and eq.
mircea_popescu: string is not a primitive!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741773 << i thought this was the idea.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 20:03 phf: trinque: the point is about exchange standard, rather than effect. we can also follow eran gatt's approach and specify a *safe-readtable*
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741789 << my bills for plastic surgery exceed my bills for vehicle mainenance.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 20:17 phf: tits
mircea_popescu: fuck, literally next line
BingoBoingo: 4srs!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741801 << this inept socialist empire's vehicular nonsense is starting to sound a lot like the fabled stories of teh romanian socialist republic.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 22:50 ben_vulpes: > the founders series roadster will cost buyers a 250K down payment even though it's not coming for more than two years
mircea_popescu: i tell the girls stories, you know, "to get a car in the 80s you had to deposit 80k lei in this so and so account, and then 8 to 18 months later they'd call you TO THE PLANT and you'd get, mostly, a car. of whatever color they had available and maybe with all the parts. there were no fucking showrooms or anything, people drove the car home 500 kms.
mircea_popescu: and you showed up like for the draft, paper in hand and specified comcast-style times. "between 8 and 17". people fucking camped at the plant.
asciilifeform: holyfuq that's fast
asciilifeform: in su some folx waited decade+
mircea_popescu: ro had large factory at pitesti
mircea_popescu: proportionally 10x than the ru things, because smaller pop.
asciilifeform: i suspected.
mircea_popescu: made to the tune of 1,5k a day or such, respectable altogether.
mircea_popescu: (mostly 70s tech, no robotics, no etc.)
asciilifeform: and while i'd hesitate to time travel to 'golden age' su, i'd almost happily move to shoemaker-era ro
asciilifeform: quite civilized compared to current-day monkeylandia
mircea_popescu: depends. 80s were insufferable (but, according to eg stanculescu, still better than ru). 70s were supposedly great. 60s ro was ahead of the post-war pack, but still... europe. even the french had malnutrition.
mircea_popescu: but take this forinstance : thorouyghly hated politician active these days MADE his own fucking ARO (70s romanian SUV). OUT OF PARTS. WHICH HE BOUGTH.
asciilifeform: nifty.
mircea_popescu: people did that sort of thing, back then. and all the fuckbook tards who paint the dude (rightfully or not, i don't give a shit) as the summum malum never as much as put together a fucking lego box.
asciilifeform: which one is this, ro's eltsin ?
mircea_popescu: so i do feel an inclination to just drive them over.
mircea_popescu: nah
mircea_popescu: lemme dig him up
mircea_popescu: !~google liviu dragnea
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Liviu Dragnea - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Dragnea>; Liviu Dragnea - POLITICO: <https://www.politico.eu/person/liviu-dragnea/>; Liviu Dragnea - Home | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/liviudragnea.ro/>
asciilifeform: how come hated ?
mircea_popescu: !~google aro ims
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: ARO M461 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARO_M461>; ARO IMS - Wikipedia: <https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARO_IMS>; ARO - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARO>
mircea_popescu: ^ there, suv.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cuz head of the reds, ie, vaguely left-centrists. but rather, because somewhat opposite to usg party.
asciilifeform: aaa
asciilifeform: so Officially Bad
mircea_popescu: well, facebook bad.
mircea_popescu: they keep gaining majorities at the ballots.
asciilifeform: and that thing looks quite drivable. something like a willis.
mircea_popescu: it started as a straight gaz clone
mircea_popescu: then the romanians added 10% hp / 10% speed etc five years later. then added 15% more five years later. and so on
mircea_popescu: eventually late 70s incarnations looked exactly like the early nissan suvs. of the 90s.
mircea_popescu: !~google aro 24 series
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: ARO 24 Series - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARO_24_Series>; ARO 24 Series models - autoevolution: <https://www.autoevolution.com/aro/24-series/>; ARO 24 - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlbswJ3_irRY>
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741804 << what's that, like 400 a month to lay down your head ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 23:05 BingoBoingo has today acquired place to office through December $311 bezzel bucks and place to sleep $400 through December 26th.
BingoBoingo: Just about, in a hostel, during high tourist season.
BingoBoingo: Sometime late february to March price goes down substantially
mircea_popescu: not bad start. find a shared apt deal among the students after, will be cheaper in the sense of paying for itself via roommates.
mircea_popescu: "rent is 100 but i don't have to spend 150 to get language lessons, o noes, im 50 in the green here"
BingoBoingo: Right. This arrangement comes with roommates through accident of having booked bed at same place. Also comes with breakfast.
mircea_popescu: sounds pretty good.
mircea_popescu: ah if only i were young again!
mircea_popescu: and all the world were new!
mircea_popescu: an' hoot for boot an' horse, son, and...
mircea_popescu: i forget the rest.
BingoBoingo: Next nearest place with similar setup is on other side of Pocitos neightborhood, while this one is across street and around block from World Trade Center
BingoBoingo: The co working space is a block still further. The mall is a block to the north. The Pocitos and Buceo playas are equidistant.
mircea_popescu: so i go into shop that has you know, coffee toaster and a buncha nuts etc, and go "camarron ?" and the woman looks at me befuddled, so i'm like "semillas de camarron!" and she's eyeing me like wtf then realises. "maranon ?"
mircea_popescu: "oh. yyyeeeah..."
mircea_popescu: cafe trebol sa. would shrimp there again!
BingoBoingo: Anyways, explaining to normal ordinary people in meatspace who Mircea Popescu is, is surprisingly simple.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform meanwhile original author found item for me : http://www.jeg.ro/titlul-mortii
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo o ya ?
mircea_popescu: oh, in other lulz : costa rica failed to send anyone to miss universe competition (some indian midget won in china). on the basis of observed data... this is correct.
BingoBoingo: "He's a Romanian living in Costa Rica" "Why? Because he can. You would if you could too."
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo *you would if you could import the fresh tuna.
BingoBoingo: Falls under could
BingoBoingo: "How did he make his money?" "Communism fell, there was money running porn studios in the 1990's, and now he alternately builds and unbuilds empires"
mod6: spare time deal
asciilifeform: meeeaanwhile in failed experiments, asciilifeform tried to take an xray of the bolix-ivory die, so as to get moar realistic microscopy quote at some point. method : ra-226 capsule (commercial geiger test src), b&w 'polaroid' film. weakness turns out to be the latter : when developed using rolling pin, fixer pouch bursts, and result is liquishit
mircea_popescu: bs polaroid.
mircea_popescu: get proper bw film.
mircea_popescu: and a bath, you won't die out of bw bathing ffs.
asciilifeform: next will suggest , betcha, an actual xray machine
asciilifeform: and dark room, lol.
mircea_popescu: bathroom in most us places works as dark room, screw in red light plug the window if it exists.
mircea_popescu: but, yes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform used to be reactives were expensive. no more. proper bath, listen to me.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/sad_polaroid.jpg
mircea_popescu: hela.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: btw this is approx same as what they look like if burst unexposed.
asciilifeform: so can't even say anything re exposure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what reasoning would impel a sane fellow to use fucking polaroids auto-paper, when a bit of film would have about 9k x resolution ?
mircea_popescu: if you're gonna do it like this, why not use a fridge.
mircea_popescu: or a potato.
mircea_popescu: roll some rexona on the chip and throw it against the wall.
asciilifeform: polaroid actually is known to make ~decent adhoc ~beta~ ( the relevant particle, gamma goes ~right through without any useful effect ) film
mircea_popescu: that's not a film, that's a print.
mircea_popescu: film, you can project.
asciilifeform: standard iso photofilm -- does not
asciilifeform: print yes
mircea_popescu: just get some fujiflm.
asciilifeform: i'ma try it with b&w iso film next, because with what else.
mircea_popescu: mind how you calc the distance.
mircea_popescu: dja know how to calc teh distance ?
asciilifeform: it's a contact print in either case
asciilifeform: ( even in ideal case, will be a somewhat smudged contact print, because chip die is buried under a lid )
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: i thought you had it exposed.
asciilifeform: nope, saving it for all-in-one microscopy go.
mircea_popescu: yeah makes sense
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1741925 << ooh neato ty☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 01:08 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform meanwhile original author found item for me : http://www.jeg.ro/titlul-mortii
asciilifeform: îţâşă!!
mircea_popescu: (all the proposed definitions are at least somewhat reasonable)
asciilifeform picks 'Se referă la o femeie enervantă care pune prea multe întrebări, deşi nu va înţelege niciodată vreun răspuns.'
mircea_popescu: lol. nb.
mircea_popescu: (to keep form it has to be always feminine anyway, so this works surprisingly well)
asciilifeform: lol! loox like i picked the winning horse...
mircea_popescu: nah, strimb won.
asciilifeform: ah hm yea
BingoBoingo to sober time, will likely blog update progress upon return
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform discovered that his bathroom makes an almost worthless dark room -- has window. and after eyes dilate can see that somewhere far away, faint headlights etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cut up cardboard, coupla inches larger than window, duct-tape on.
asciilifeform: other find : 'scotch' tape is not usable in darkroom experiment : it triboluminesces
asciilifeform: yea stuck doing sumthing with the window.
mircea_popescu: duct tape.
asciilifeform: all stickytape actually.
mircea_popescu: also, shaving foam on the inside of doorway.
mircea_popescu: holy shit turns out i know a lot about field developing.
asciilifeform: doorway was ok, simply cut the lights in the rest of the house.
mircea_popescu: oh cuz you have roof.
asciilifeform: electrical tape for the idjit green led in the mains socket...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lolwat do you mean 'have roof' ? indeed whole thing would be quite impossible outdoors
asciilifeform: unless using one of those field darkroom sacks
asciilifeform: ( prolly was the right item actually. that sack, with the arm sleeves )
mircea_popescu: just being silly.
asciilifeform: hm, interestingly, the crapola inside polaroid is quite nasty, picture alkaline battery that's been rotting for 20 yrs
mircea_popescu: ~only utility for those is "baby's first naked pic" back when they didn't shave, didn't suck cock and didn't habitually strip naked in company.
asciilifeform: can't comment, i never in entire life owned the actual camera for them
asciilifeform: always seemed like ripoff, 10-20x the cost of normal film
mircea_popescu: for that exact reason.
mircea_popescu: thinking abouthttp://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1741970, "пизда îţâşă" would make a pretty decent sluttattoo.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 01:24 asciilifeform picks 'Se referă la o femeie enervantă care pune prea multe întrebări, deşi nu va înţelege niciodată vreun răspuns.'
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 8149.51, vol: 11587.60792112 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 8168.4, vol: 61474.95293876 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 8171.3, vol: 4269.44988224 | Volume-weighted last average: 8165.72958568
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 495532 | Current Difficulty: 1.364422081125E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 495935 | Next Difficulty In: 403 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 8 hours, 30 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: OMG Crashing, this is bullish for SegCrash
danielpbarron: !!withdraw 0.5 1NmvgX3Z2Rvt48CeNgksT8koP616hx9tB5
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cOZTp/?raw=true
danielpbarron: !!v D0F05C6FC6B6D03BB6CB01C9DEF031CD00831B96AEEEBE071D4B0E1618527BD4
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/0nsyq/?raw=true
danielpbarron: !!balance
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cLaCZ/?raw=true
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/11/22/and-the-arrangements-continue/ << Bingo Blog - And The Arrangements Continue
BingoBoingo: ^ The update
ben_vulpes: solid thread phf, asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: good example of tmsr as antireddit: nothing in the "nollij of crowds", but if yr lucky some sages will come by with a set of koans to set you rethinkin priors
ben_vulpes: in which BingoBoingo sets hisself deadlines!
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741755 <-- crap. sorry for the confusion! I was thinking about builtin functions, not symbols. need a meaningful way to point symbols to those things, and meaningful way revealed itself once I finally grasped your point. /me proceeds to rewrite symbols+builtin pieces.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 19:35 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741176 << i don't need to consider that, i grok metacircularity, i.e. there's no such thing as builtin symbols. bytecode or not is lateral to that point.
jurov: \znc clearallchannelbuffers
jurov: lol sorry
mircea_popescu: lol backwards!
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741759 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1741862 <-- string not a primitive, but -- "string" datatype aside -- symbol names are (conceptually) strings, so they (the symbol names) require an internal representation etc. cons'ing characters upon reading was simplest approach I found to storing and structuring them. con: list cells introduce memory overhead; pros: avoids arrays and magic numbers like☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 19:38 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741179 << you can just ignore the whole "string" question in first version, McCarthy's lisp used symbols instead of strings (that's why early nlp code, like eliza all come out as DOG SAID, HELLO) and the only operation you could do at some point was read and eq.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 00:33 mircea_popescu: string is not a primitive!
spyked: mccarthy's "up to 30 characters" (ref. Lisp manual Appendix F)
mircea_popescu: "not a primitive" means "nothing can '''conceptually''' be that"
spyked: mircea_popescu, I understood that. the point is, McCarthy's Lisp system still uses strings internally in some form.
mircea_popescu: it might just be that you look at mccarthy's symbols and think "oh strings".
spyked: nono, I look at Lisp symblol *names* and I think "strings", i.e. sequences of characters.
mircea_popescu: whereas odds are mccarthy thought indexes in an array.
mircea_popescu: you're familiar with how industrial technology looked at the time, the machine'd have a list of items internally, and glued on a piece of paper giving the words per item
mircea_popescu: (this mechanism survives in "error codes" lulz even today)
mircea_popescu: and in antique trilemas for the rotaku club (ie, great pieces i'm too lazy to translate), http://trilema.com/2012/pizdita-sau-antropologie-printre-taranii-de-la-oras/ aka mp knows more about "toxic manhood" an' "rape culture" than your local fabecook expert.
RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu I may have someone worth inviting to chan for interview in the coming days. Most of the folks I know over there are primarily oral translators, so having to look around a bit. Just got back yesterday - BJ is a real shithole but the people are adorable, lots of good duck. FYI - 'VPN AC' (Romanian) seems to be the only one working well/consistently behind the firewall (I've used many) and
RagnarDanneskjol: Everbright Bank has, by far, the lowest entry barriers for business or tourist visitors opening new accounts.
mircea_popescu: oh they're still going on with their pretensions to sovereignity and whatnot, "firewalls", bs.
mircea_popescu: lulzy.
shinohai: gm #trilema
shinohai: !~later tell spyked got a question regarding the w3m patch when you have a sec.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
spyked: morning, shinohai
shinohai: Heya spyked, was looking at your patch last night .... where did you get your w3m source code from if I may ask?
shinohai: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/lava-lamps-encryption/ <<< in other faux phuctors (page refuses to archive for me)
spyked: shinohai, sourceforge, unfortunately (w3m devs still host it there for some reason). exact link: https://downloads.sourceforge.net/w3m/w3m-0.5.3.tar.gz same for the njs library; one sec, I'll look it up
shinohai: Its ok spyked .... this is the one I tried, albeit in a Debian VM. ./configure keeps failing for me saying there is no gc
shinohai: though it is available, I'm puzzled. (Your patch did apply cleanly)
spyked: ah crap. yes, I installed the gc lib from the debian repo. I don't know why they removed gc from the w3m tree
shinohai: Hmmm .... I have the gc repo though, still fails.
spyked: that's odd. can you paste somewhere?
spyked: the configure/make output, that is
shinohai: spyked: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ouT0O/?raw=true
spyked: shinohai, I remember getting this as well at some point. can you also paste config.log? the js library bits that I added to ./configure are very hack-ish (IMHO the thing shouldn't be dynamically linked anyway, so I just hacked through it to make it work)
shinohai: Just an aside, I *also* tried this unpatched and get same error. One sec, posting config.log
spyked: (ftr, libgc is why I rebased the patch on w3m-0.5.3 in the first place; for some reason the "mktable" executable generated by w3m was segfaulting in the gc library, while I knew 0.5.3 compiled on my system before, with libgc from debian sources)
shinohai: config.log > http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X8A1Z/?raw=true
shinohai: I know I have builit it plenty of times, I'm trying to remember if there was some patch for that, don't recall
shinohai: ( I think I used this version tbh https://github.com/tats/w3m ... I loath sourceforge lol)
shinohai: ah ha! https://github.com/tats/w3m/pull/2/files
spyked: shinohai, I know why the patch fails, though not sure why it fails without it... did you also compile and install libnjs? e.g. on line 1840 in config.log, "cannot find -ljs". hm. I am guessing you should have it installed if w3m-0.4 worked for you.
shinohai looks
shinohai: Nope, not available in repos either .... got a sauce?
spyked: the original w3m-js patch adds a -ljs compilation/link-time flag. now, there's another issue: if your libjs is in a path that the run-time linker can't find (e.g. /usr/local/lib as opposed to /usr/lib), it will fail again at some point.
spyked: shinohai, https://sourceforge.net/projects/njs/ (would be cool if there was out of sourceforge link too... /me will have to host all these somewhere publicly at some point)
shinohai: grrrr .... thanx for assistance spyked. I rather like w3m (because inline images) but truly needs a lot of cruft removed and things organised - mainly the sourceforge madness.
spyked: all these libraries (gc + njs + others) can be embedded in the original w3m and made self-contained (including removal of shared library nonsense, like gc was linked in 0.4), but they'll require me 1-2 full days. to put on list
spyked: I like w3m as well. the codebase is surprisingly easy to understand (took me a few hours yesterday to get a vague idea of how modules work together), though I have no idea why they need a gc. links is even more minimal, but I use w3m mainly because it runs in emacs.
shinohai: links is nice, it will at least open images in a framebuffer.
shinohai: bah, weird errors trying to build njs .... this is better left to when I can look at a full cleanup.
diana_coman: !!up Abot101
deedbot: Abot101 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: Abot101 who might you be ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742061 << lotta people do.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 13:23 spyked: shinohai, https://sourceforge.net/projects/njs/ (would be cool if there was out of sourceforge link too... /me will have to host all these somewhere publicly at some point)
spyked: hm. shinohai, I remember patching config.sub and config.guess at least. posting a patch in one minute.
shinohai: spyked: I did patch config.sub because it is horrendously old and has no idea what system I was using.
shinohai: oh and good morning Sr. Popescu o/
spyked: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/yVbXl/?raw=true <-- most of it is config.sub and config.guess. two lines at the end may fix shinohai's troubles. anyway, I'ma post the whole thing (w3m+gc+js+whatever else) once I manage to do a static build.
asciilifeform: in other noose, chaum ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-10#1365552 ) peddles promisetronic shitcoin, https://archive.is/DQPVe , as if he had any reputation left to burn☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-01-10 23:48 mircea_popescu: hey check that out, zimmerman makes nsa-phone and david chaum makes nsa-gossipd.
mircea_popescu: hola!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shameful excuses of the items they pretend to be.
shinohai: Adam Back gonna rage on that one
asciilifeform: meanwhile, https://archive.is/q98xo << intel burns moar amt fritzchip remote nsalogic
asciilifeform: at the same time fixing , i strongly suspect, the bug that recently showed promise of making the whole thing removable
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: chaum is esp. sad case, was at one time actual thinking d00d, invented afaik hashtronic 'proof of work' , then proceeded to narrowly avoid doing anything useful with it
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: huge strategic mistake publicizing that item, but sadly i r not yet in the position of making ALL the calls.
mircea_popescu: (the bug i mean.)
asciilifeform: 'Intel would like to thank Mark Ermolov and Maxim Goryachy from Positive Technologies Research for working collaboratively with Intel on a coordinated disclosure for CVE-2017-5705.' << oh hey named quislings ftr
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, oughta have been used in mass rapefest
mircea_popescu: just kept under lid for 2-3 years.
mircea_popescu: let them build a lot of the chips.
asciilifeform: coordinated anal waltz, not 'coordinated disclosure'
mircea_popescu: very stupid russki geologists.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a fw bug, not silicon , sadly patchable
asciilifeform: ( not, say, like the famous fdivbug in '90s )
mircea_popescu: not so cleanly cut.
mircea_popescu: should have let it pile.
asciilifeform: it piled since 2009
asciilifeform: when they started fritzchipping
mircea_popescu: iirc the early ones were different.
mircea_popescu: aaanyweays.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742041 << dun see what this has to do with phuctor... and 'lavarand' existed in '90s ( where is it nao..? )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 13:04 shinohai: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/lava-lamps-encryption/ <<< in other faux phuctors (page refuses to archive for me)
asciilifeform: !~google lavarand
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Lavarand - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand>; LavaRnd: <http://www.lavarand.org/>; What is LavaRnd?: <http://www.lavarand.org/what/index.html>
shinohai: asciilifeform: posted before full coffee, meant fuckgoats
asciilifeform: was sgi publicity stunt, even patented
asciilifeform: and apparently doomed to be recycled forever by svderps
asciilifeform: ( will also point out, the lamps per se contribute ~0 entropy, arrangement is really ~same as hashwhitening output of camera static with the lens cap on )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1741924 << http://trilema.com/2017/Кто-ты-по-жизни/☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 01:08 BingoBoingo: Anyways, explaining to normal ordinary people in meatspace who Mircea Popescu is, is surprisingly simple.
mircea_popescu is evidently working towards a unified theory of mpdom.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/%d0%9a%d1%82%d0%be-%d1%82%d1%8b-%d0%bf%d0%be-%d0%b6%d0%b8%d0%b7%d0%bd%d0%b8/ << Trilema - ?
shinohai: lol .... `?`
mircea_popescu: unicoarde.
shinohai: deedbot doesn't know who it is in life. xD
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
mod6: mornin'
mircea_popescu: hola
mod6: how goes today?
mircea_popescu: setting up teh yachting for laterz.
mod6: sounds relaxing :]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : p&g cut 100mn off its "online advertising" budget 2nd q ; saw zero impact.
mod6: heheh
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742041 << it's not surprising that cloudflare's piece doesn't mention lavarand, but the original was invented at SGI and has a couple of patents around it https://www.wired.com/2003/08/random/, https://web.archive.org/web/20010926221159/http://lavarand.sgi.com/☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 13:04 shinohai: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/lava-lamps-encryption/ <<< in other faux phuctors (page refuses to archive for me)
asciilifeform: phf: see thread
phf: oh bah
asciilifeform: ( am i the only one who actually uses phf's very spiffy pointy-hand arrows ? )
phf: actually i saw your follow up, but stopped reading at "where is it nao..?"
asciilifeform: phf: consider the sheer degree of unabashed cargocultism in the endless rehash of the lava lamp thing
asciilifeform: betcha it will become a 'new' idea at, e.g., google, a few yrs from now.
asciilifeform: and then again somewhere else.
asciilifeform: with bigger, bigger wall of lamps, each time.
asciilifeform for some reason unable to turn up the thread in the l0gz where we did the 'rng design is not a technical problem , but a political problem' thing
asciilifeform: also phf's linked pediwiki item is hilarious : '...floating material in lava lamps, extracting random data from the pictures, and using the result to seed a pseudorandom number generator.[1] Although the secondary part of the random number generation uses a pseudorandom number generator, the full process essentially qualifies as a "true" random number generator due to the random seed that is used.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow!
asciilifeform: Essentially Qualifies!
deedbot: danielpbarron: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EnGVs/?raw=true
asciilifeform: in other lulz : http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2017/11/21/4 ( https://archive.is/N6vFJ ) << 'bignum fuzzer that compares the results of mathematical operations (addtion, subtraction, multiplication, ...) across multiple bignum libraries. Among these is the Go programming language, specifically the "math/big" package [1]. Recently, the fuzzer found a problem in its exponentiation operation...'
asciilifeform: hilarious on multiple levels : bignumtron so large and unfitting in head that it has to be probed via fuzzing, like microshit...
asciilifeform: or how about the 'pre-allocated vs not' nonsense
asciilifeform: or how about bugs in basic arithm routine.
mod6: eek
asciilifeform: in other noose, sci-hub.cc dun resolve nomoar.
asciilifeform: ( anyone outside of gringolandia wanna try ? )
asciilifeform: ... sci-hub.la turns out still worx ( reminds of ye olde mpex... )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, works from here
asciilifeform: unsurprising
asciilifeform: ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-30#1718499 etc )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-09-30 00:25 cazalla: BingoBoingo, ah okay :\ dailystormer just got shoah'd again, this time from .is extension heh
mod6: asciilifeform: if there are updates (that are complete & published) for MPI, you may want to update the BTC-Dev ML with the new changes, and reference the original: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-October/000175.html
asciilifeform: mod6: whole thing is at http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533
asciilifeform: orig & update , both properly vtronic
asciilifeform: also on phf's http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=mpi&search=
asciilifeform: mod6: trb ml was really not imho the proper place for it: mpi is not used in trb
mod6: yeah, the first message says as much.
mod6: i just happened to stumble across it and also thought "this is out of date too..."
asciilifeform: feel free to upload the vdiffs/sigs to the ml yourself if you can think of a reason why it belongs there
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> in which BingoBoingo sets hisself deadlines! << Sets deadlines for self, and establishes expectations based on collected information.
BingoBoingo: In other news. USG.blue youth program has instructed parents to not have their daughters hug family members and to discourage hugging especially in cases where girl has recieved gift from said family membe
BingoBoingo: r
ben_vulpes: wat
BingoBoingo: This isnstruction is not specific to throbbing family members
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Apparently teaches girls to respond to favors with affection, Grill Scouts says bad family
deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/11/22/taming-of-the-serpent-in-ada/ << Ossasepia - Taming of the Serpent in Ada
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey ljb!
asciilifeform reads
diana_coman: asciilifeform, let me know if you see anything weird in there
asciilifeform: diana_coman: well 'a candidate replacement for the algorithm used at that time under the name of “Advanced ..' is not quite it, they competed for the usg tourney crown
asciilifeform: the item at the time known as 'rijndael' was crowned by nsa, and was proclaimed 'aes'
diana_coman: hm, right; creation of "aes" rather than replacement, right
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-01-17#981006 << thread. possibly elsewhere.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-01-17 22:38 asciilifeform: or, alternatively, like the choice of 'aes' over the stronger but 'slower' 'serpent' cipher, it was merely orders from lizardhitler.
diana_coman: replacement for des rather
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: !#s from:asciilifeform aes
a111: 81 results for "from:asciilifeform aes", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20aes
asciilifeform: !#s from:mircea_popescu aes
a111: 38 results for "from:mircea_popescu aes", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amircea_popescu%20aes
asciilifeform: ^ possibly in there, actually. re the faux 'contest'.
diana_coman: updated; I'll read and link when I find it, as it should be linked I think
asciilifeform: the process whereby rijndael became usg's national One Troo Cipher was as dubious a thing as could be expected.
diana_coman: well, I was trying to keep my scope there relatively narrowly focused on serpent itself; it's not a very short post as it is anywya
diana_coman: found this so far: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591982☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 17:09 asciilifeform: the political history is also rather interesting (it was on track to winning the 'aes competition', received fewest thumbs-down votes from the panelists, but mysteriously torpedoed by usg and did not win)
asciilifeform: truth be told, all published symmetric ciphers are fundamentally liquishit, and for approximately the same reason ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-06#1477746 ) . they divide merely into the 'already publicly broken' and 'not yet'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-06 21:37 asciilifeform: i find it also very interesting that all aes-like ('boxes') cryptosystems are direct descendants of rotor machines. which were known to be pseudoscientific even when first built, as vernam existed
asciilifeform: http://dianacoman.com/available_resources/nessie_vectors.txt << 404 btw
diana_coman checks
diana_coman: it is there now
diana_coman: I could have sworn I *did* upload it but apparently..I hadn't
diana_coman: asciilifeform, mind expanding a bit on what you had in mind as best way to expand serpent to 512 bits blocks?
diana_coman: and 512 bits key too for that matter
asciilifeform: to expand a K-bit (block and key, we'll assume, are each K-bit) voodoocipher to J bitness, xor split ( on rng ); having generated J / K independent keys; each incoming plaintext block of J bits, is cut into J / K blocks, and each enciphered with the corresponding key. decipher -- same.
asciilifeform: xor split each plaintext block, that is
asciilifeform: actually nm
asciilifeform: this is wrong; and the correct algo is in the l0gz...
asciilifeform: anyway for 512bit key, you still keep the 128bit block. but each time you have incoming 128b plaintext, you shamir it rngistically into 512bits, i.e. 4 128b parcels that must be xor'd to reconstitute the original. each of these get ciphered with one of 4 independently-generated 128b keys.
diana_coman: hm, I probably did not know how to search for it properly as I did look but still not very clear on it
asciilifeform: on the decipherment end, each split gets deciphered with the respective 128b key , and the four parcels xor'd to form the plaintext again.
asciilifeform: does this make sense ?
diana_coman: ah, it was the construction on top you had in mind
asciilifeform: the 1 aspect that historically bothered me, is that enemy knows now a relation between the plaintexts in the 4 streams
asciilifeform: sorta how i ended up exploring the http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-24#1589881 item☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:03 asciilifeform: picture the following 1-dimensional automaton, that eats bitstring in sets of 2bits, and : '10' -> 'tape step left' ; '01' -> 'tape step right' ; '11' -> invert bit at current square; '00' -> terminate.
asciilifeform: ( i see it as a still-unsolved problem. )
asciilifeform: back to the shamir scheme : the only thing i can properly prove about it, is that it isn't weaker than straight single-key-with-no-splits
asciilifeform: and, on top of this, each stream ~individually~ is not distinguishable from rngolade.
asciilifeform: anyway orig method is in log, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618462 << merely in application to slightly different form of the problem ( how to combine voodoociphers in such a way that the result can in no circumstances be weaker than the strongest of the items )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 21:26 asciilifeform: so, for instance, you can prove that a k-of-k (must have ALL parts) shamir split, where you then take each share and encipher with different method -- will NEVER be weaker than the strongest cipher used.
asciilifeform: you thereby get a 'ratchet'. which afaik is the only hard strength result in all of crypto aside from von neumann's otp proof...
asciilifeform: ( which it is really but a restatement of )
diana_coman: yes, I had found that one; for some reason I thought you had in mind a different approach for expanding block + key size for serpent itself
asciilifeform: nope. it isn't a keccak-like thing, isn't 'rubber'
asciilifeform: not defined for any kind of stretching.
asciilifeform: my approach is a universal 'stretcher', predicated on having reasonably fast and high-quality trng.
asciilifeform: ( your encipherment speed is limited to 1/S of your rng's bit rate, where S is the splitness )
asciilifeform brb,teatime
diana_coman: I think I need to read more on this, so I'll hit the books
shinohai has enjoyed asciilifeform 's and diana_coman 's exchange and also goes to tea [~}
ben_vulpes: "School superintended Keith Marty said it was a surprise to staff that the student responsible was not white." still? STILL a surprise? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5108107/Student-writes-white-lives-matter-N-word-mirror.html
trinque: how did someone writing niggers in a school bathroom make the news?
trinque: they didn't even shoot anyone
ben_vulpes: writing niggers on the wall is basically shooting babies, trinque omfg be more sensitive
mod6: ya srsly
shinohai: lmfao this thread
asciilifeform: diana_coman: lemme give specific example. start with splitting 1 byte. to split byte B into X and Y, you take byte R from rng, and compute B xor R = X. then Y = R . X xor Y = B .
asciilifeform: diana_coman: now let's split 1 byte into ~four~, A,B,C,D. we take same transform and do it to X and Y in turn. in total, we've used 4 bytes from rng device, to cut 1 byte into 4 otpfrags.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742164 << hey, next the "instruction function of soviet pioneer org in protecting the poor clueless adults from toxic facts and hate truth" will emerge. and then, probably, the NEP. and then, i guess, the http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-enforcement/#footnote_0_55204☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 20:14 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Apparently teaches girls to respond to favors with affection, Grill Scouts says bad family
diana_coman: asciilifeform, that makes perfect sense, yes
asciilifeform: diana_coman: observe that knowing 1,2,or even 3, gives you 0 bits of info re the original.
asciilifeform: ( in the shannon sense. you haven't narrowed down what the 4th could be, by knowing 1..3 )
diana_coman: aha
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-06#1398048 << and so on☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-06 16:55 mircea_popescu: derp #1 : "What is wrong with existing block ciphers like AES? AES has been in widespread use for over a decade and to the best of my knowledge, there is still no practical attack on it (unless someone has built a working quantum computer and not told anyone about it). Its totally free of patents and IP issues. Its been implemented in a huge variety of hardware and software (including the Intel CPU that I am using to m
mircea_popescu: hm that;s still kinda late.
asciilifeform: there was an earlier one... http://btcbase.org/log/2014-09-07#821750☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-09-07 17:56 mircea_popescu: i wasn't aware this is public knowledge.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-12#1198022 there's actually lotta these☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-12 03:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2014/minigame-smg-august-2014-statement/#comment-114754 << don't you find it a little odd that even on an obscure liuttle game such as eulora, someone does find the time to carefully probe me about aes ?
asciilifeform: right, plenty
mircea_popescu: apparently AES is one of those topics where someone could just pick up the log discussion over 3 years and make anencyclopedia entry
asciilifeform: almost impossible to bring up crypto in heathendom without a 'voice in the crowd' 'helpfully' reminding about 'standardized, well-designed aes'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-09-07#821766☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-09-07 18:00 mircea_popescu: It gets worse. Nearly every AES implementation using AESNI will leave two values in registers: The final block of output, and the final round key. The final block of output isn't a problem for encryption operations — it is ciphertext, which we can assume has leaked anyway — but for encryption an AES-128 key can be computed from the final round key, and for decryption the final round key is the AES-128 key. (For AES
diana_coman: ha, back when I was blissfully only *playing* this game!!
mircea_popescu: diana_coman those happy days.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742198 << how about actually using a 512 bit block☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 21:45 asciilifeform: anyway for 512bit key, you still keep the 128bit block. but each time you have incoming 128b plaintext, you shamir it rngistically into 512bits, i.e. 4 128b parcels that must be xor'd to reconstitute the original. each of these get ciphered with one of 4 independently-generated 128b keys.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: serpent isn't defined as a stretchable thing - i.e. it isn't obvious what ought to be changed to produce a larger ( or smaller, for that matter ) block, and still to have it meaningfully similar to original
asciilifeform: rather like the diff b/w sha512 and keccak
asciilifeform: ( the latter is defined as a family of functions, and so 'rubber' )
mircea_popescu: dja see why i'd muchly prefer a native tmsr.rsa length symmetric cypher rather than this nonsense ?
asciilifeform: really not hard to see
mircea_popescu: and why trhe fuck am i using "4 bit permutations"
mircea_popescu: and so on and so on
asciilifeform: it does cost moar tho. even once i'm done with the asm version.
asciilifeform: modular exp is intrinsically costlier , at least on pc iron, than the idjit rotorization used in symmetrics
mircea_popescu: anyway, whatever, diana_coman : the correct implementation approach to patch the 256 bit serpent into 4096 bit rsa is to cut every rsa block into 16 fragments, cipher each independently with diff keys, then paste the 16 keys together make 4096 bit of key.
mircea_popescu: it's bullshit all the way down, "the 4096 bit block gets cut into 16 sub blocks to be fit into rotorizers that cut each block into 64 bits and process with their 4 bit s boxes". because we're from the fucking cartoons.
asciilifeform: sad, innit. asciilifeform for instance has a mtbf of about 1hr when reading about symmetric ciphers. after that -- barf
asciilifeform: because ultimately yes 'down to the 4bit sbox!'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have this itching half-memory that serpent 256 was actually defined
asciilifeform: it was.
asciilifeform: but ~key~ size
asciilifeform: block was fixed at 128bit.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, 256 key, 128 block
diana_coman: heh, crossed with asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right you are, it's in the... 2006 spec.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz from same source (ross anderson of cambridge) http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/tamper.pdf
mircea_popescu: that one from 1998
asciilifeform: classic piece
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, let me see if I got this right re "patch": simply apply serpent as it is and then at the next level up glue x keys together and send as "key", glue the corresponding x outputs together and use as "output"; basically lump together 16 serpents
mircea_popescu: yea.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "specificication" published on cambridge page is most likely a later fake. it's a 2006 item supposedly of a 1998 document.
mircea_popescu: OTHER 1998 documents, of lesser political sensitivity, exist there in original format.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the current serpent www is at the very minimum known to be missing items from before
asciilifeform: so why not also serpent.
asciilifeform: keccak, i meant, turned up missing items
mircea_popescu doesn't recall why we picked up airbase 1 serpent in preference of japanese item ?
asciilifeform: branch-free
mircea_popescu is annoyed.
asciilifeform: y'know the splits dun all have to be ciphered with same scheme
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja recall the discssion with apelyobee fellow ? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737658☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:55 mircea_popescu: this is the problem with "complexify the code machine" tendency. somehow it appears intuitively evident that having a portion of the code INSIDE the machine is "a more complex, therefore a more secure system". it is not. 100% of the key belongs in the key.
asciilifeform: sure
asciilifeform: i read that line as a restatement of the ancient 'seekrit algos are a stupidity, honest crypto keeps only privkey seekrit' truism
mircea_popescu: diana_coman and of course we end up with 8kb of bs "key" for every 4kb payload don't we.
asciilifeform: 16
mircea_popescu: well 256 bit keys 128 bit blocks.
asciilifeform: ah with no splits then yea
mircea_popescu: so basically we'll be reusing serpent keys, is the idea ?
asciilifeform: ( in other 'gangrene ? what gangrene?' horrors : 'LibTomCrypt is pretty nice to read (only bug found in last 10 years was in prime generation — failed to iterate Miller-Rabin)' -- from turd https://comsecuris.com/slides/slides-bignum-bhus2015.pdf re broken bignumatrons. cited line presented as a 'hey it's pretty good'... )
mircea_popescu: check it out, diana_coman has found de-facto work-around to "my theme overwrites text up top" : put an intro in, page or so before code :D
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, aha!
mircea_popescu: smart.
mircea_popescu: anyway, so what's the work mode here, every now and again server sends client a rsa-encrypted packet containing 16 aes keys ; client enciphers its comms to the server with one selected from a set of 8 selected from those 16 ; and deciphers server's with one selected from set of 8 other than previous set. now and again burns a key.
mircea_popescu: when left with two unburned gets new set.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, aes keys??
mircea_popescu: sorry serpent keys
asciilifeform: dun have to swap ~all~ the keys every time there's an rsagram
mircea_popescu: sed 's/aes/serpent/'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform client just keeps a list. adds to it when rsagram
mircea_popescu: strikes from it by criteria.
asciilifeform: right
mircea_popescu: this actually seems a rather workable method tbh.
mircea_popescu: allows for very elastic packets / metering of security needs by user.
asciilifeform: iirc this is the scheme asciilifeform originally suggested.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman thereby all game packets will be multiples of 128 bits, and in principle a client can live off the first original rsa op its entire life if it so wishes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty cool.
asciilifeform: it costs, however, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742216 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 21:56 asciilifeform: my approach is a universal 'stretcher', predicated on having reasonably fast and high-quality trng.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i guess we'll define a "control packet" which is always the first 128 bits of every comm, which will contain data such as "killed key #x moved to #y" and also "running out of keys send moar".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sorry ?
mircea_popescu: server generates all serpent keys. no stretching .
asciilifeform: actually if client doesn't get to generate keys
asciilifeform: aha right
asciilifeform: if server generates all keys, client dun need an rng at all.
asciilifeform: ( aside from when creating his original rsa priv )
mircea_popescu: the major advantage of which is that user will be able to enjoy security flowing from server even without own fg.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: and suddenly the fg entropy debit is relevant : eulora server will be capable to produce iirc no more than 64 serpent keys/second per installed FG.
mircea_popescu: in reality less as it draws some itself.
asciilifeform: this is approx correct.
mircea_popescu: so i'm guessing a daily-ish serpent key change per client is not unreasonable.
asciilifeform: would depend on how populous, neh
asciilifeform: with few enough clients, even hourly'd be workable
mircea_popescu: but if memory serves the "attack" on serpent used 2^100 plaintexts sorta deal
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but taking the assumptions other way to see how bad it looks.
mircea_popescu: imo dun look bad at all.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, 16 serpent keys means 16 keys of 256 bits each?
mircea_popescu: right.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, and then when client enciphers with 1 from a set of 8 selected from those 16: does this mean reusing that 1 key for as many 128 chunks that particular eulora message has? or do you mean 1 per chunk ?
mircea_popescu: it means reusing
diana_coman: k, I think I got it
mircea_popescu: in ~principle~ serpent doesn't expose the key anymore than it exposes the cipher. the claim is that if you know about 2^100 or so plaintext-ciphertext matches you can extract the key.
mircea_popescu: now, the expectation is that a full day of play will produce less than say 2^15 or so messages.
diana_coman: myeah, since reading more seriously on crypto I read a LOT of claims, certainly
asciilifeform: diana_coman: there is ~nothing serious printed on the subject publicly since... von neumann
asciilifeform: which is why 'hitting the books' is a very limited proposition. the most that can generally be asked from the dead trees, is an accurate picture of the popular algos, plus details of the most well-known attacks on various (e.g. lenstra's, pollard's, etc )
asciilifeform: but as for the general principles which a naive n00b might hope to find in such a work -- there's nothing since old man john von n.
asciilifeform: ( and , jaw-droppingly, just about every book 'on crypto' omits the otp proof. that very same, that constitutes the alpha and the omega of what's actually proven in the subject at all )
mircea_popescu: hey, every ro "blog" omits mention of trilema.
mircea_popescu: dun look good together.
asciilifeform: exactly same phenomenon imho
asciilifeform: including the otp proof would immediately invite the q, in even a half-awake reader, of why the fuck the rest of the tree had to die
asciilifeform: to produce the brick of nonsense that follows
mircea_popescu: something quite like that.
asciilifeform: in today's gnattronics finds :
asciilifeform: 1 ) build a gnat proj 2) gnatxref -a -aO path_where_your_ali_files_end_up yourmain.adb > xref.txt
asciilifeform: shits forth a concordance, e.g. http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/MDZMh/?raw=true .
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I suspect it's quite possible that the writer would end up with that q so... no book
asciilifeform: ( full usage/dep topology for every named entity in your proj )
asciilifeform: with lines/columns where used, and where defined.
diana_coman: that being said, whenever I find I don't even have that poor picture as full and as clear as I'd like, I'm still left with little other choice then to go and read; possibly again, what can I do
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the writer is typically a schneier-style wretch who made 'the bargain' and very well knows about otp
asciilifeform: and ain't sayin'.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: aside from von neumann, and the crc encyclopaedia of well-known algos, i cannot in good conscience recommend much reading. there are works devoted to specific known attacks on rsa ( song y. yang, plus a few ru items ) ; at least 1 dead tree on differential cryptoanalysis ( how items like des get trivially demolished ) whose author presently escapes me; and that's just about it
asciilifeform: you're prolly better off reviewing the fundamentals of information theory ( shannon et al )
asciilifeform: asking for 'good books on crypto' is not wholly unlike to ask 'good books in astrology'
diana_coman: eh, 'good books in voodoo', let's not branch un-necessarily :p
mircea_popescu: lmao