tmsr - Log 2019-08-01

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: thinkin' moar re the 'monkeys' -- imho these were the folx continuing to build dec clones , crapples & other micros, and in the inevitable march to microshit hell. rather than the bolix/lmi folx. these, imho, did Right Thing. (even if ended by plugging embrasure with torso)

mp_en_viaje: anyway. point remains, lmi, bolix, etc folk had absolute obligations : a) to work together ; b) to not work with morons.

feedbot: http://blog.mod6.net/2019/08/testing-bvts-blockwise-read-vpatch/ << mod6's Blog -- Testing bvt's Blockwise Read vpatch

mp_en_viaje: anyways ima publish all these bingology trackbkacs seeing how they use the neat select thing, improvement over old ver.

feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/how-plugrushcom-got-itself-banned-or-heres-what-business-is-not/ << Trilema -- How plugrush.com got itself banned, or Here's what business is not

lobbes: mp_en_viaje: re: lobbesbot. The heathen VPS it is hosted on is migrating their servers. Hopefully will be back online in 24 hours (I didn't want 100% of my stuff on Pizarro; potential central point of failure and all) ☟︎

lobbes: though I must say, Pizarro uptime has proven to be far superior than any of the heathen options thus far

feedbot: http://ave1.org/2019/lisp-why-step-5/ << ave1 -- Lisp, Why?, step #5

ave1: I also have to work on my attention span for writing, I'm getting impatient half-way through.

mp_en_viaje: ave1, it's better to adjust article length to your span, and let it work itself gradually.

mp_en_viaje: lol in a concerted effort to not make mistakes, shrysr 's description of his understanding of the wot thing became significantly vague-r. and of course mistakes still make it in, eg "This rating represents what that person means to you in whatever way you like." is specifically untrue. the number you associated with a rating represens your guess at the likelihood that you will be able to answer a question about that party asked b

mp_en_viaje: this is why the unknowns problem is an absolute bar to a high rating -- if people keep asking me questions about X that i can't answer, ima eventually drop their rating. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-07-28 23:01 mp_en_viaje: as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-01#1806991 tradition i don't even have enough information to distinguish between the case where "phf bleeding to death in a minsk ditch" ; "phf in love forgot all about world" ; "phf kidnapped by unreported alien invasion" or literally any other alternative. nfi how to approach it, either, tried everything i could think of.

mp_en_viaje: really there's no way to understand the wot outside of the general theory of the field it resolves, oracles and sybils and all that.

feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y06/098-hunchentoot-iv.html << The Tar Pit -- Hunchentoot: acceptor code review

asciilifeform: spyked: can pleeeez haz comments on your www ? ( at the risk of repeating mp_en_viaje's , srsly, 'no comment box' is quite discouraging in re reading) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-07-26 18:53 mp_en_viaje: im guessing for this one time http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/fn1VH/?raw=true will have to be it ; but for the love of christ, what are you doing to me here ? am i going to simply ignore your articles because i know for a fact i'm not interestreded in reading something i can't comment on and you're forcing on me the dilemma of either not commenting at all or else losing it in pastes ? this won't do, if i use an hour to read a post i

asciilifeform: spyked: imho your 'hunchentoot' vivisection illustrates important point : just how much of the complexity of that thing is on acct of idjit tcpism's shit abstractions, i.e. the lengths to which it goes to pretend that the machines aint exchanging short packets in quasi-reliable ordering ☟︎

asciilifeform: 'acceptors', 'persistent connections', various streamisms, 'listeners', and other 'i can't believe it's not serialport!111' horros

asciilifeform: for yrs nao, asciilifeform thought, 'why the everliving fuck not serve page as a set of luby packets'

asciilifeform: then -- 'magically' -- no moar 'acceptors', 'streams', 'listeners', 'chunkings'...

spyked: asciilifeform, sorry for the annoyance. will certainly do, but the effort to add comments is non-trivial. I'ma try to add structured commenting (box + comments section for each post) in a few weeks from now, but it'll still be a manually operated thing on my side for a while.

asciilifeform: on top of this : could just as easily serve a page from cluster of boxes instead of merely 1 (there's nothing preventing the slices from being generated wherever you want) ☟︎

spyked: agreed re. tcpism, the "persistent connection" abstraction is entirely unfit for this kind of thing.

asciilifeform: tcp was a 'gift' of profound retardation that 'keeps on giving', even to moar obvious extent than e.g. unix. it is single-handedly responsible for ~100% of the backbreaking complexicrud of apache, ssh, ftp, etc

asciilifeform: the net aint a serial port!! it dun behave like a serial port! and the spackle dun do any good, it cracks and peels when you so much as blow on it ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:10 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.

a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thinking about it -- 'zxc' strikes me as a classic case of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866191 and impedence mismatch generally. it was clearly written as attempt to 'deterministic scheduler on ??? iron/os', but fails, cuz you can't actually spackle away impedence mismatch b/w the underlying platform and the proggy

asciilifeform: ever wonder why heathens still fascinated, like chukchas with radio found in taiga, with 'bittorrent' ? it's because warez goes at ~line rate~ over 'bittorrent'. and at maybe 2/3 line rate on http on a good weather day. why? cuz bt , despite authored by idiot, ~let go of tcpism~ ! ☟︎

asciilifeform: as if the ludicrous cpu & bw waste of tcp weren't enuff, it also conveniently groups (with said grouping being entirely plaintext) 'sessions' for hitler to moar conveniently store & read.

asciilifeform: 'Now, as if this wasn't enough, TCP also has a (transport layer) segment size, which must fit into a so-called "Maximum Segment Size" (MSS), which must be smaller than the MTU, because we also need to fit lower-layer headers and all that. Otherwise TCP isn't concerned too much with this, but misconfiguration can cause problems with congestion windows and whatnot, and we sure as hell don't want this shit to blow up. Finally, as if the

asciilifeform: fuckers who designed the L3 shit and the ones who specced the L4 shit didn't add enough, here come the L7 idiots who, not being satisfied with a "file transfer protocol" decide to "support" file transfers over HTTP; and since files may be as large as, say, 1TB, then yes, splitting them into small chunks is very much preferable to sending the whole thing right away.'

asciilifeform: ^ i.e. there are at least ~4~ successive impedance-mismatched layers of liquishit , if you count ~server~ (e.g. hunchentoot) . ~5~ if you count reader's browser !

asciilifeform: the 'session' abstraction aint even cardboard , it is toilet paper. yes, i get it, ftp or irc box might want to represent a user as having a 'session' that might time out etc. but why give 9000 flaky (or malicious) routers between the user & server the ability to close the session whenever ~they~ feel like it ?

BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-01#1925907 << I noticed the blog was missing incoming some incoming trackback on older posts, so I poked the DB a bit. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 07:00 mp_en_viaje: btw, i got like 60 pingbacks from you, that are all dupes. i mean... http://trilema.com/2013/ripple-the-definitive-discussion/#comment-95245 exists, but now there;s also one from http://bingology.net/2013/09/26/anti-bitcoin-bitcoin-apps-part-3-gliph-in-particular/?b=Rippl&e=#select

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-01#1925914 << prolly he subscribed to somebody's pay www ? i defo did at 1 pt ( orlol's ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 09:21 mp_en_viaje: ahahaha what the everloving fuck! bingo@patreon ?!

mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, asciilifeform somehow patreon sent unsolicited email to the email address i published earlier today

mp_en_viaje: i still suispect some kind of ungodly manipulation, because no mailinglist was confirmed or anything like that.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: also their pw reset mechanism is broken, i've been trying to log in & cancel acct for 3+ yrs nao (erry 6mo or so) and been to their india-powered 'support line' even. no dice.

mp_en_viaje: in other sad lulz : protonmail.com too pantsuit to... show you the god damned headers.

asciilifeform of the 'get the cheapest astrologist' school of thought , on those occasions when must use email

asciilifeform: if it's 1 of those lulzy 'faux crypto via js' things, costs having-to-login-from-js-browser neh. ☟︎

deedbot: shrysr voiced for 30 minutes.

mp_en_viaje: this might be the first time i actually get to say to engineer that reported complete failure "oh, actually, it works ?!"

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: caught any ? << Caught a deep impression that US, EE, and SA poverteneur goals are converging to the same 400 USD/month

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what does this mean , for beggar to have 'goal' ? maybe i'm thick, but i thought 'goal' was to fill the hat with as many coins as possible erry day ?

asciilifeform: ( what does beggar do if 'not meet goal' ?? on street corner, he could walk to new corner. but what's the 'patreon' equiv ?? )

shrysr: mp_en_viaje: I implemented the 2nd article's directions - just tried... not working on my browser

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( what does beggar do if 'not meet goal' ?? on street corner, he could walk to new corner. but what's the 'patreon' equiv ?? ) << Actual pichis pointedly can't walk to any other corner as they wish because bum fights

mp_en_viaje: note : this guess is bolstered by sampling conversation with a lot of their "girlfriends"

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i thought progression were more usually e.g. x -> y -> rapper -> p -> q -> beggar rather than x -> beggar -> y

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, you familiar with qm concepts of proba bility cloud yes ? here it's probability clown : entrepreneur, student, rapper, designer, etc

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: lol i have'em moar 'classically' modeled as simply 'beggar' energy level

shrysr: mp_en_viaje: i thought the 2nd solution browser independent? I'm using the firefox dev edition

mp_en_viaje: shrysr, nfi why it doesn't work on your machine. indeed the solution should be browser independent. maybe they broke the spec ?

asciilifeform: 'Note taken on [2019-07-31 Wed 09:17] Summary: By my estimate, I have spent 6-8' << oughta display anywhere

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/08/qntra-s-qntr-july-2019-report/ << Qntra -- Qntra (S.QNTR) July 2019 Report

asciilifeform: most of the extant browsers do the idjit 'postel's law' thing where they 'fix' ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:23 asciilifeform: the 'postel's law' nonsense, of silently forgiving people who send liquishit at the dusty disused corners of the protocol, enabling there to even ~be~ such a thing as dusty corners in a protocol!, MUST die.

feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/kiev-the-continuation/ << Trilema -- Kiev, the continuation.

shrysr: asciilifeform: ok, will check and revert. but damnnnnnn its working somewhere..rofl. Its such a cool thing and I don't know why its not standard.

mp_en_viaje: shrysr, the current theory seems to be indeed his : your page is subtly broken somewhere else, which makes this not work on some browsers but not others. put it through validators see if you can find the unclosed tag or we/

asciilifeform: epic win, btw, the server-end highlighter. i'ma put it in my www as soon as have a free finger or two

mp_en_viaje: if it works there it's almost certain such a subtle error in your theme, as an uncliosed div or span or such

shrysr: mp_en_viaje: yes selection on your pages work, and so does younghands.club, .. seen it before and just rechecked.

mp_en_viaje: in other scandal, by the time i hit "[wafs] wake-acceptor-for-shutdown" in spyked 's story i'm so fucking pissed off i can't even continue reading.

mp_en_viaje: why the fuck is this hunchenback even written in lisp ? it's pure python, why not just write it in python and be happy.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i was only able to eat w/out choking because already, decade+ ago, had read 'hunchentoot' an' barfed

asciilifeform: point is , tho, that it is barfalicious ~because tcp~, not because author as such was tard

asciilifeform: you can't actually write a tcpistic http serv thing that doesn't end up looking exactly like this, or worse.

mp_en_viaje: it's the exact equivalent of enunciating english words with an o at the end to speako el mexicano, understando ?

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 15:40 asciilifeform: spyked: imho your 'hunchentoot' vivisection illustrates important point : just how much of the complexity of that thing is on acct of idjit tcpism's shit abstractions, i.e. the lengths to which it goes to pretend that the machines aint exchanging short packets in quasi-reliable ordering

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: at one time in '17 asciilifeform tried hand at writing basic ada www server. ended up burning it all. because ended up looking quite like 'hunchentoot', and quite evidently 'water took the shape of the bottle', i.e. inescapably

mp_en_viaje: i don't specifically care re the culprint ; but i do not see the wisdom of having a lisp server if it looks like that. for one thing, if you just make it honest c more people can be found to debug it.

asciilifeform: imho if stuck with ugly piece of shit, would still rather have one w/out the nulltermstring, buf overrun, offbyone, etc. bugola. but i see mp_en_viaje's pt

mp_en_viaje: i also do not believe that going about in ox-drawn carts with "Mercedesuzuki" spray-painted on the sides "will aid people to migrate to cars later" or anything

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, that might be an argument for ada. but not for lisp. lisp comes with interpreter costs etc.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: cl (aside from egregiously retarded incarnations, e.g. gnu's) aint interpreted, lol

mp_en_viaje: anyway, i'm not proposing any hangings today ; but we also can't just completely ignore this ridiculousness wtf.

asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's judgement, the retardation is pulled in ~by the protocol per se~ . but folx are welcome to try an' prove wrong.

mp_en_viaje: irrespective of how it gets in -- the fact remains, it's STILL not lisp, even if "written in lisp". cuz it's "written in lisp*" where * = as if it were not lisp

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-01#1925939 << this is incidentally a very good point i would much regret being lost. webpages wouldn't suffer from this "coinverges -- eventually" behaviour ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 15:44 asciilifeform: on top of this : could just as easily serve a page from cluster of boxes instead of merely 1 (there's nothing preventing the slices from being generated wherever you want)

mp_en_viaje: besides, the mechanism splendidly demonstrared in torrents, not like this is arcana toch

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 15:53 asciilifeform: ever wonder why heathens still fascinated, like chukchas with radio found in taiga, with 'bittorrent' ? it's because warez goes at ~line rate~ over 'bittorrent'. and at maybe 2/3 line rate on http on a good weather day. why? cuz bt , despite authored by idiot, ~let go of tcpism~ !

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: btw this is another application where box with FG wins -- generating fast-converging luby frags

asciilifeform: ( even if you have to 'stretch' the FG w/ prngism, still 9000x moar convergence than with bare hands )

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: there are actually coupla dozen (that asciilifeform knows of) schemes similar in scope to luby's -- i picked his simply cuz a) works b) minimal complexity

mp_en_viaje: but the stance seems tenable that if we're gonna go to all the trouble to make and maintain lisp webserver, might as well make a non-fucked one and make new browsers for it

asciilifeform: it is far from proven that it could not be substantially improved on. but afaik a) only along the axis of bw economy b) at substantial expense in re moving parts.

mp_en_viaje: and if not wanna actually fuck, then get out of the night club, go home, have a tea

asciilifeform: strictly speaking , udpistic page server doesn't even require gossipism. but ideally yes.

asciilifeform: ( why would ~not~ want ? conceivably, cuz rsa is expensive. at least until we have e.g. that 8192bit mips iron, or similar )

asciilifeform: an' if 'sane server', and 'fuck or go home and tea', may as well then also serve up sexpr instead of the html soup.

asciilifeform: the only conceivable reason why httpism lived (for 3!! fucking decades) is cowardice. 'oh noez, couldn't tell reader to install sane browser, MUST compat with internet-exploder' etc

mp_en_viaje: especially seeing how nobody is forced or required to fucking use it ; not for a while anyways. can always fall back on present c-ism if would rather.

asciilifeform: reason why 3 decade of 'apache' is same as why erryone (incl. microshit) is using that SAME tcp stack from berkeley '80s. cuz protocol was deliberately made so braindamaged, with literally 10,000+ moving parts, that ~impossible to correctly reimplement if demanding compat with 'everyone'

asciilifeform: there's a long queue of 'idjit standards that Must Die if anyffin sane is to be possible'. on other side of the tower, e.g., x86.

asciilifeform: prolly this is where asciilifeform oughta admit, that in his notebook he has (what thinks is) a reasonable protocol for this. it however needs fast keccak.

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 17:20 asciilifeform: if it's 1 of those lulzy 'faux crypto via js' things, costs having-to-login-from-js-browser neh.

dorion: I have a trb node pressed to asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks.vpatch plus a local modification to add a new rpc. This node was was fully synced for a couple days, but has failed to verify block 588012. ☟︎

dorion: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/gQ05f/?raw=true << Here is debug.log snippet since receiving 588011. ~300 lines in it fails on 588012.

dorion: The remainder of that file is the remainder of the hour in which it attemps several reorgs.

mp_en_viaje: is it actyually block 588012 hash 0000000000000000000ba68c82d9b620cf028f0642c833a5eda92dbf68d5a3fb ? or is it the next, hafsize one, hash 0000000000000000001498ec3c9796a44b53b8b70186920d15a5e34afcaaa719 ?

dorion: Given the truncated hashes, I pressed to asciilifeform_whogaveblox.vpatch (which includes mod6_excise_hash_truncation.vpatch), stopped the node and restarted with the new binary.

dorion: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qT7ce/?raw=true << Here is first 200 lines from debug.log after the restart.

dorion: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kpTWI/?raw=true << Here is the snippet starting at first reorg attempt in that run.

dorion: when I grep 0000000000000000000ba68c82d9b620cf028f0642c833a5eda92dbf68d5a3fb debug.log it reports to have

feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-are-there-really-so-many-people-with-such-troubles-in-your-country-to-make-such-medicine-such-an-important-matter-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - "Are there really so many people with such troubles in your country to make such medicine such an important matter?" Adnotated.

asciilifeform: dorion: '08/01/19 01:11:33 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=0000000000000000000b height=588012 work=2327381792950809691787748424' << somebody's sending invalid blox. happens erryday.

dorion: asciilifeform de-truncation is marked experimental on btcbase.org/patches and thebitcoin.foundation/v/patches

asciilifeform: of erry 20 folx that ask re 'my trb stopped at block B', 19 problem is impatience.

asciilifeform: !Q later tell mod6 is something wedging your conveyor re eating patches ? plz do say. cuz e.g. detruncation is iirc >1y old nao ☟︎

dorion: after restarting with -caneat, bitcoind eatblock 588012.blk returns: error: {"code": -2, "message":"Safe mode: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other node may need to upgrade."

asciilifeform: dorion: nao this is interesting. can you dumblock the last 20 or so and tar'em up, post , plz.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje et al : ^ pretty nasty , surprised no one has observed this effect before.

asciilifeform: at this pt, seems quite evident that someone is throwing around crafted wedge chains (i.e. mined after-the-fact , with backdated timestamp, going from older block) specifically to wedge syncing folx.

asciilifeform: if mod6 had the detruncation and the 'who-gave' patches in the flagship tree, we could even potentially find out who...

a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 22:11 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers!!! http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html << .

asciilifeform: dorion: you will have to show your local modification if you want to be 100% certain wtf yer node is doing. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 21:01 dorion: I have a trb node pressed to asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks.vpatch plus a local modification to add a new rpc. This node was was fully synced for a couple days, but has failed to verify block 588012.

asciilifeform: and hey jurov, can i persuade you to update http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/ to contain the latest flagship tree plz ?

asciilifeform: ( as it is, 99% of threads are served by the older snapshot, cuz they concern very basic mechanisms -- but the line #s are liable to be off )

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 21:49 asciilifeform: grr lobbes bot dead ?

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 12:41 lobbes: mp_en_viaje: re: lobbesbot. The heathen VPS it is hosted on is migrating their servers. Hopefully will be back online in 24 hours (I didn't want 100% of my stuff on Pizarro; potential central point of failure and all)

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/08/dnc-loses-2016-hack-related-racketeering-suit/ << Qntra -- DNC Loses 2016 Hack Related Racketeering Suit

mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-01#1926112 << These go back to this, I did test those ones when they came in. iirc they did work alright when I tested them. I stopped adding these items to the working vtree (SHA512) when mircea_popescu said, and instead started working towards getting the keccak vtree built & then getting it onto cuntoo. Figured once there & stab ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-08-01 21:49 asciilifeform: !Q later tell mod6 is something wedging your conveyor re eating patches ? plz do say. cuz e.g. detruncation is iirc >1y old nao

a111: Logged on 2019-07-24 00:56 mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923606 << This is a neat-o vpatch 'who gave', but it came in just after the 'NO NEW WORK IN SHA PLOX'; so there are a few like this that probably will go into TRB main Vtree once the Lordship reviews/audits the proposed Keccak TRB Vtree; perhaps possibly after TRB has a new home OS/environment.

mod6: le, could begin retroactively testing & adding these older submissions into the tree. ☟︎

mod6: I've been pondering mircea_popescu's reponse to the above link since the statement was made. I'm not sure how I went wrong here, but not adding to the existing SHA512 vtree is what I understood my instructions to be. ☝︎

mod6: I think my head must be broken, because the stress of making a decision wrong is paralyzing.

mod6: It seems like Mr. Popescu feels the same way. That I should be drummed out. We've known each other (all of us) for quite some time now. And I don't want to be a "problem" or "idjit" or whatever. Mainly, I don't want to force you all to kick me out. ☝︎

mod6: So I should just do this on my own accord. Shall we make some arragements for someone to take over the Foundation? How can we go about this. I want to see TMSR~/The Foundation/Pizzaro succeed. Even if that means that I'm not a part of these any longer.

mod6: This year, I've done what I could with the time I have available, which, indeed, is far less time than I've had in say, '11-'16. I know I haven't produced as much as I would like this year, especially in July. I've had so much secular stuff come up, my head is spinning. But reality is, I barely have enough time to keep up with the logs.

mod6: Heck, for what its worth, I know that there has been some talk about reorganziation of Pizarro's roles/responsibilities since after this latest round, that if I'm causing strife/headaches, I'd even be willing to split my shares between BingoBoingo and asciilifeform, and you guys can continue one.

mod6: But all of this has beaten me down. I've been trying to soldier on this year, being productive, helpful. But it's not working out, is it?

mod6: Like I said earlier this year, I do care about my wot-rating, so I don't want to damage that. Let's discuss/work together to help me move on from these things.

mod6: I've got to stop moving for a minute and eat something, and then write up a basic nothing-burger of a foundation report. I'll be back around in a bit.