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asciilifeform: diana_coman's test jig ( i did not modify it except for the dest ip ) currently fires 1 / sec.
mod6: evenin'
mod6 looks
mod6: nice work diana_coman ☟︎
asciilifeform: oh hm it stops after a while
mod6: stopped or died?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's deliberate, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854306 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 15:58 mircea_popescu: add a 1s delay between packets.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854994 << just about, yes. and yeah, the summary's correct. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:36 phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already
asciilifeform: 'Note that the sender will send each size of package *only once* and it will simply finish once it sent one package of each size' << aaah
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855005 << certainlt. it's already unpacked, as far as that can be done, at http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855075 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:50 phf: asciilifeform: you're just spreading fud, i don't know where to start unpacking this conversation
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.
mircea_popescu: sadly there's no simple/just-add-water way out of "i've been ignoring this whole thing for x interval, wut nao". nao -- pick up from where you left off, what.
mircea_popescu: summaries only go so far, and besides, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851685 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:56 asciilifeform: mod6: i dun like to discourage folx, esp. mircea_popescu's pupil, who is evidently pouring sweat into the job. but i expected the items would get better with time, and imho so far they haven't
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_sender_udp_log.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_receiver_udp_log.txt << 1 full volley ☟︎
mircea_popescu: but yes, the obnoxious part about the ignorant approach is that it purports to "identify as problems" the speciffic parts that are both well designed and functioning as designed, ie specifically the hash transition.
mircea_popescu: that alf manages to do this naturally and with i suspect no malice aforethought (or anything else aforethought at all) is in a sense supportive of the hopes of humanity -- apparently ignorance breeds the nonsense on its own, no "dark lizard" behind it all needed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like 100% passed...
asciilifeform: packets, i mean
mircea_popescu: anyway. what v did you end up with ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: just nao -- muscle-powered v a la diana_coman . this weekend would like to reword v.py to run on phf's components.
mircea_popescu: alright.
asciilifeform: and when esthlos releases, will try his.
mircea_popescu: you realise, i'm not going to go "here -- use THIS .emacs". not in this life.
mircea_popescu: yes there's nothing wrong with people publishing toolsets ; but this can't become a fucking expectations wth. craftsman -- has toolset.
asciilifeform: i dun recall asking for 'use THIS .emacs' lol
mircea_popescu: standardized tools -- for mcdo cashiers. actual craftsman, responsible for his toolset, which nobody inspects for him but himself.
asciilifeform: but ftr i released complete kit with orig v, not half thing.
mircea_popescu: as things grow, upgrades by parts become a matter of necessity.
mircea_popescu: restaurant served me complete pie, but body shop did only paint the preexisting car i supplied them with.
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu & diana_coman , not only 0 packet losses, but 0 reorders.
mircea_popescu: you're doing wash to uy and back ?
asciilifeform: i.e. : cat uy_receiver_udp_log.txt | cut -f 1 -d ',' > receiver_idx.txt ; cat usa_sender_udp_log.txt | cut -f 1 -d ',' > sender_idx.txt ; diff sender_idx.txt receiver_idx.txt << produces nil
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so far only tried the -->
mircea_popescu: nb. let it run for a few weeks if you will, so we have nice datasets to work on
mircea_popescu: and bidirectional is good imo, i half expect to discover parity between lastmile->dc and dc->lastmile directions.
asciilifeform: ( potentially also could be interesting to make echo variant )
asciilifeform: i.e. ->, <-, ->, ...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no disagreement re upgrades of parts
mircea_popescu: so then. phf did a new ~vdiff~. and a very good one at that, from all i can see.
asciilifeform: worx a++
asciilifeform: upstack, re the udp experiment -- 1/sec is sorta 'cheating', no possibility of reorders
asciilifeform: ( afaik 1sec is way moar than long enuff for a packet to either make it, or vanish )
mircea_popescu: and diana_coman or hanbot or who will you pick have little problem in turning over next-day keccak patches on trees, as recently put on display. i don't think they're either smarter or blesseder than you, they just have the toolset ready.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wanna run one with .1 s or 10ms ? that might be a good move.
asciilifeform: i'ma try with 10ms
mircea_popescu: just makew sure you put something in there to distinguish "my interface is shitdrops on the floor" ☟︎
mircea_popescu: because we're not really into measuring shitty nat routers on cisco customer walls per se.
mircea_popescu: early proto-test indicated most of the lossage happens before 2nd hop
asciilifeform: how does one determine exactly which hop
asciilifeform: ( i dun have a tap in florida, lol )
mircea_popescu: in the worst case, capture the flow upstream and see if the box actually puts out the packets ?
mircea_popescu: though in general can have interface log outbound, say.
asciilifeform: thus far they all show up on my exit router, fwiw
mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: (and when didn't made it -- local interface dropping was the likely culprit)
mircea_popescu: that whole "1 packet per burst makes it" was very much "well doh, 1 gets sent at all"
mircea_popescu: ie, the 508 value largely mythical at this point.
asciilifeform: about to post the 10ms variant ( 3 shots )..
asciilifeform: yea i suspect 508 is a textbookism
mircea_popescu: maybe was true. in 1994.
asciilifeform: here goes : ☟︎
asciilifeform: 1) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run1.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run1.txt
asciilifeform: 2) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run2.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run2.txt
asciilifeform: 3) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run3.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run3.txt
asciilifeform: ( still in 1 direction )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect wasn't even in '94
mircea_popescu: 100% huh. nice!
asciilifeform: apparently
mircea_popescu: apparently some parts of the internet DID get better over time.
asciilifeform: 0 reorderings too, loox like
asciilifeform: 10ms is still pretty relaxed pace tho.
mircea_popescu: truth be told, on the internet-as-we-thought-it-was, video on demand'd have been a miracle.
mod6: thats still 2 orders faster than the last test tho.
asciilifeform: video does get to skip frames & buffer etc
mircea_popescu: moreover, 1kb/s is one thing, 100kb/s ANOTHER thing.
asciilifeform: mod6: i seem to recall a much sadder london test but that was with very heavy packets iirc
mircea_popescu: i don't really want the traffic to go much over the kb/s range
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: then yer golden, loox like. at least if errybody has a path no worse than mine
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: keep in mind that traffic on receiver will be considerably moar than 1k/s
asciilifeform: ( even if erry client sends at 300 baud )
asciilifeform: will be interesting to try a shot with several people txing from different places. see if it triggers antiddos derpery somewhere.
mircea_popescu: will happen by itself anyways.
asciilifeform: in battlefield -- definitely
mircea_popescu: but anyway, imo if mmorpg needs > kb/s connectivity something's misdesigned somewhere. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: not including here asset transfers ; merely the "bread and butter" so to speak.
asciilifeform: i've nfi why you'd want >1k/s per user, unless you were doing voices or somesuch exotica
mircea_popescu: even if you do voices, client should acquire the asset and cache it.
asciilifeform: i meant those mud folx who have microphones in the game
asciilifeform never saw the appeal
mircea_popescu: i don't see why they can't do this -- independently.
asciilifeform: i.e. with telephones ?
mircea_popescu: kinda weird for a restaurant to also attempt to provide phone service for the patrons. what, they can't carry phones inside ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform through whatever they like. it's their fucking friends, neh ? sometimes gaming i'll speak acrossd table / yell across room w/e. my fucking harem, my fucking business.
asciilifeform: i dun know the specific answer. but suspect it has to do with the sad audio mixer on most os. they wanna hear the game sounds + the chat.
mircea_popescu: ah, os mixing still undone, 25 years later, huh
asciilifeform: last i knew.
mircea_popescu: good thing linux has code of shithead.
asciilifeform: iirc this was even poettering's orig worming-in -- he claimed to fix mixing
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : didn't )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855023 << moreover, i can't imagine who the fuck would make this call ~for others~. you don't like having it, by all means, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854751 ; but i am not going to say "do not use v.pl". ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:57 phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-26 18:52 mircea_popescu: so delete them, then.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phunphakt : mixer worked GREAT 20y ago. when hardware dsp in sound blaster.
asciilifeform: THEN stopped when 'winmodem' soundcards.
mircea_popescu: aha. i recall this also.
asciilifeform: ~iron~ mixers : work. 'soft' liquishit -- surprise, surprise -- doesn't
asciilifeform: esp on os with liquishit scheduler
mircea_popescu: or should i say alsa.
asciilifeform: any an' all of the 'soft' hacks
asciilifeform: they dunwork. cuz how would they.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855025 << actually this is exactly >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854931 ; i saw it there then, i checked it off in my head and did not return, that or any other wednesday, to check. turns out, it got dropped. don't do that! ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:58 phf: i guess it's presumptuous on my part to think that it's exactly obvious how to take vtools and plug it directly into an existing v's, but that's all that's needed
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 09:34 diana_coman: http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ -> gotta ask here, phf, am I missing something or what Wednesday was that there in the first line meant to be?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855034 << indeed! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 16:02 phf: you can basically do (cat foo.vpatch bar.vpatch qux.vpatch) | vpatch and expect the resulting press to be fully valid, hashes and all
mircea_popescu: re stand-alone hasher : useful in general (for reason alf describes) even if not strictly needed for v work ; the only way to get one i know of atm is via eucrypt.
mircea_popescu: dunno how many people keep that around though. i don't think it'd be a crime or anything to make a command-line keccak branch off of it, so people can just press to that if they want.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phf posted one earlier
mircea_popescu sitll goign through teh logs. apparently going out for a few hours IS UNSAFE
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: Die Kais’rin hat sich mit dem Franzosen alliiert und das Römische Reich gegen mich revoltiert. De Russen sind gefallen in Preußen ein, etc etc.
asciilifeform: ahahahayes
asciilifeform sings...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855041 << this is so, "here's a complete model" is a periodic necessity. just you know, can't complain that "not there jit when i wanted it". but yes in general, ur examples must be had, fully functional model trains must exist, etc. otherwise how to even run academia. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 16:08 asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol recall how we even ended up with v, ' asciilifeform : 'it is obvious!11 how to arrange trb patches' errybodyelse : 'nah' )
mircea_popescu: indeed.
asciilifeform: ( recall, we had gpg-signed patches with 0 robotics for yr+ )
mircea_popescu: well... the republic is organically grown.
asciilifeform: indeed, 0 nitrates!1111
mircea_popescu: we don't do shit for any other reason than because "alternatives were reviewed, this came out".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855053 << this is historical. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:27 phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855058 << iirc he was getting rid of that. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:49 asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: shouldn't take much sweat, anyffing that calls gnupatch could just as readily call phf's
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855060 << and yes. schmuck's principle of "tolerance", doth not belong here. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:54 asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it not only made for very picturesque output in old buggy vtrons, but pretty terrible for blood pressure, as turned out that the supposed 'disable fuzzy' flags dun actually do anyffin in gnupatch
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855070 << this guy. getting him out of the flophouse was the best move ever. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855218 >> players in sight of each other, all getting position updates for all others is *THE* central scaling 'n squared problem' for mmo. 20 byte position sent 4 times per second to 100 players is 8k/s per player. and 4 updates per second is really not enough for good playability when you factor in the round trip lag. 15/s is less draconian (many games send 30-60). 100 players gathered with 15 updates ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 01:14 mircea_popescu: but anyway, imo if mmorpg needs > kb/s connectivity something's misdesigned somewhere.
Mocky: per second is 30k/s per player.
Mocky: there are clever ways to reduce, somewhat. but no silver bullet
Mocky: and this doesn't count pets / hirelings / mobile npc's
mircea_popescu: there is that.
mircea_popescu: however, the position is not 20 byte. idea is for eulora to make do with ~6.
mircea_popescu: there's also no intention to reproduce the usual http://trilema.com/2016/the-eastern-rpg/ bs. there's not going to be a "central town" everyone HAS to go to because of the linear&automated questline.
mircea_popescu: "questline"
diana_coman: also, note that eulora does not enforce "all players within sight get position update" because server does not push basically; it's up to clients to request what they want, when and if they want it
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855134 -> cheers! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:20 mod6: nice work diana_coman
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855148 -> hey, nice! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_sender_udp_log.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_receiver_udp_log.txt << 1 full volley
diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855188 << nitpick: >1500byte always fragged, cuz ethernet. but! apparently get sewn back together in time. at least at the currently tried rates, and with mix of sizes ( remains to be seen what receiver will do with a summed MB/s of frags from different people ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:58 mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855180 << also forgot to answer -- it's a mips 'octeon' running freebsd off ssd , iirc described in several old thrds ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:54 mircea_popescu: just makew sure you put something in there to distinguish "my interface is shitdrops on the floor"
asciilifeform: !#s octeon
a111: 16 results for "octeon", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=octeon
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855291 << lemme know if you'd like sumthing in particular tested with my path, diana_coman ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 06:24 diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps
asciilifeform: diana_coman: all of my testfires thus far ended up 'no loss, no reorder, as if on lan'
BingoBoingo: In other news, the morning news program "Buen Dia Uruguay" has a fat wrinkly bag on right now reading Tarot cards and making predictions for 2019
BingoBoingo: Apparently it is going to be a good year for pork and problematic year for snakes, of which I have yet to see any in this country
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what's the shortest delay you tried?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 10ms
asciilifeform: diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855195 << output ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 01:01 asciilifeform: here goes :
diana_coman: got it
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
mod6: how goes today?
asciilifeform: slowly.
mod6: not bad, for a Friday am.
asciilifeform: mod6: mostly mired in saecular liquishit
mod6: eeek
mod6: no fun
mats: BingoBoingo: 2019 is year of the pig
mod6: jurov: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6nujs/?raw=true
mats: chinese zodiac
mod6: mmm, i wanna throw some ribs in the smoker.
mod6: I'm about ready to start hunting too. It's getting close to that time of year.
asciilifeform: re : udpism : at the risk of rehashing some of the ancient gossipd thread, i'ma put a few notes re fragging :
asciilifeform: even if seems that 100% of 2/3-frag packets make it through in 'laboratory' conditions, still gotta remember that the frag reassembly buffer is the ~exact~ equivalent of the pre-trb 'block orphanage' ☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. it is fundamentally an 'allcomers-can-claim-some-ram' item
asciilifeform: which not only complicates ip stack ( for when we write one ) but opens up to ddosability ( frags are take-it-or-leave-it, they dun even carry the port # )
asciilifeform: i for one would rather have no frag reassembly at all if writing ip stack. not only b/c complexity but also this. ☟︎
asciilifeform bbl,teatime
Mocky: I don't see the benefit of building in a reliance on an external UDP fragment reassembly mechanism when the algo is 'all or nothing'.
asciilifeform: Mocky: me neither, esp. given as it wins nuffin bandwidth-wise
asciilifeform: imho if you want large messages, oughta have own fragger/reasmer, not the ??? in linux/ciscolade ☟︎
asciilifeform: the ip stack's frag/reasm is one of those things that 'worx until it doesnt'
Mocky: zackly. and when "doesn't" it magnifies packet loss %
asciilifeform: i'll observe that if you dispense with fraggism, ip stack becomes fairly easy to write ( i.e. if you support only unfragged udp and nuffin else )
asciilifeform: Mocky: my suspicion is that under ddos conditions, loss of frags will approach 100%
Mocky: old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: Mocky: i suspect that he's rtfm'd since
asciilifeform: Mocky: incidentally, it is possible to do what i suggested to him then, which is to change the protocol # in the ip header and be generic ip, rather than udp . but only once we have own ip stack.
asciilifeform: of course ddosers can send packets with your new protocol # , it doesn't make you bulletproof
Mocky: aha
asciilifeform: the only final solution to ddos is O(1) crapolade packet rejection. ( preferably in iron )
asciilifeform: fragola makes this impossible in principle, you gotta stow N frags to get any sense of whether the full packet is friend or foe
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ? << There was a period when reddit hadn't yet given up on marginalizing the Republic and DDoS's were pestilential.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: they're still pestilential
BingoBoingo: Sure, but less frequently aimed visibly at us
asciilifeform: this is a temporary peace.
BingoBoingo: Gone from cover of "loud redditards" pissing UDP at webservers to bloat blocker shitting turd boluses at trb nodes
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: whole reason ddos even exists as a concept is the short-sighted idjicy of arpa designers. i'd like to avoid repeating it.
BingoBoingo: Right
BingoBoingo: Can't let it happen on short wave
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: very diff set of problems, there
asciilifeform: ( and really quite different thread... )
BingoBoingo: Woodpecker arrays, etc
asciilifeform: ( on sw , the sun ddoses you 24/7/365, as well as washington )
Mocky: asciilifeform, O(1) crapolade packet rejection is already available in software with your FFA lib, if RSA over non-frag UDP was built on top, no? ☟︎
asciilifeform: Mocky: it will once i get one going with inline asm'd addition/shifts.
Mocky: it's not constant time without asm?
asciilifeform: oh it is
BingoBoingo: In other news Japanese robot seals (the ones for keeping the elderly company) have made it to Uruguay
asciilifeform: Mocky: in theory you already have rsa with Ch. 4 . but nowhere near line speed.
asciilifeform: Mocky: the constant in that O(1) unfortunately matters.
Mocky: indeed
Mocky: Japanese robot seals ... wtf am i looking at right now, lol
asciilifeform: Mocky: in the past i attempted a fpga rsa also. sadly the 'ice40' would need to be about 250x bigger, for it to be bakeable
asciilifeform: ( as it is, ice40 won't even hold ~one~ 4096bit adder ! )
BingoBoingo: Mocky: I have the local news playing in the background. But they are talking about these guys. https://archive.is/RRHQ Mind the publication date and remember this country was Lego free until that awful movie came out.
asciilifeform: and i'ma never recommend to anyone the use of heathen 'rsa chips'. not even because they all, without exception, work with only 'toy' key lengths, but because srsly wtf. ☟︎
mod6: can we get a squad of these seals to blockade runners for us:?
BingoBoingo: Mebbe?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: homing pigeons might work...
BingoBoingo: The national rolling pigeon club is a few blocks away. Could see if those would work
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the tricky bit , as i understand, with those, is that they only work in 1 dir
asciilifeform: and gotta be manually transported in the other
asciilifeform: i.e. you'd have to ship'em out of BingoBoingostan in boxes. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: End then we'd have to strip down tcp over carrier pigeon to get UDP over carrier pigeon
asciilifeform: more practically, usb stix over pigeon.
asciilifeform: but i suspect not a winner, they do what, 500 km.
mod6: lol, that's a long way
BingoBoingo: 500km is Brasil, Buenos Aires, the Atlantic Ocean, and Paraguay
asciilifeform: mod6: if there were a place within 500km of BingoBoingo with sane customs regime, he'd be there already, neh.
mod6: im just sayin', overall, that's a suprisingly long way for a winged-rat.
mod6: regardless if it means our needs, in jest.
asciilifeform: not even necessarily in jest. i'm not averse to using absolutely anyffing, if it worx.
asciilifeform: and sits down in budget. ( nuke subs are prolly out, for the time being )
mod6: fair enough
mod6: We still need fiat, any takers? ☟︎
asciilifeform: mod6: i'll do it if absolutely nobody else wants to , but stretched rather thin, so give it coupla days if you can
mod6: I've asked a number of times in both castles, and a few individuals direclty (whom previously said they'd be willing); no takers yet -- however, still waiting on some info back before we're on our own. Will let you know.
asciilifeform: aite
asciilifeform: mod6: i'm pinching pennies in case i gotta do an expedition in near term
asciilifeform: if BingoBoingo doesn't pull off the ransoming of the crate, it will have to happen asap
mod6: *nod* makes sense. Once I get all of the info back I need, I'll send around a board comm so we're all on the same page, and will list some possible options.
Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do. ☟︎
Mocky: http://qstp.org.qa/membership/
asciilifeform: Mocky: you're a likeable fella... get'em to like you
Mocky: they seem keen on most new tech, and particularly comms tech
mod6: cool, Mocky
BingoBoingo: Mocky: Uruguay has a similar "freezone" system, gotta read the fine print
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: iirc uy's cost mega-moolah
Mocky: yeah, gotta find some people to talk to there
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Uruguay's cost mega-moolah AND imports USG/EU pantsuitism absent on the other side of free-zone border wall
asciilifeform: right, but iirc it was some outrageous sum, that made mircea_popescu's torpedo look economical
Mocky: from appearances, qa version has similar "looks better to approvers if mega bucks will be invested" but also they are trying to 'silicon valley in Doha' so maybe some room at the 'bottom' ☟︎
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> right, but iirc it was some outrageous sum, that made mircea_popescu's torpedo look economical << Closets from 3kiloUSD monthly
mod6: !!ledger
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zIYuA/?raw=true
mod6: !!sent-invoices
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/DQKGE/?raw=true
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/pantsuit-drones-failing-to-qualify-for-pantsuit-loan-forgiveness-program/ << Qntra - Pantsuit Drones Failing To Qualify For Pantsuit Loan Forgiveness Program
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: re the loans lulz -- i regularly wonder when they'll dispense with the pretense and finally herd the debtors into work gulag
asciilifeform: ( these already , not counting i suppose mircea_popescu's chix, cannot escape anywhere, the 'education' mutilated'em into permanent usaschwitz inmates )
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=32 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/23/2018
asciilifeform: in other noose, BingoBoingo's crate seems to be moving
mod6: hey hey!
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: hey there.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855325 << i can see it. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 15:13 asciilifeform: i for one would rather have no frag reassembly at all if writing ip stack. not only b/c complexity but also this.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855334 << link! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:01 Mocky: old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he was prolly thinking of the http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218223 threads ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:33 mircea_popescu: but yes, it was practically shown that a) no actual protection from ddos exists, outside of the ostrich method discussed above and b) udp is the key to this state of affairs.
asciilifeform: ( + http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218171 , and earlier ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:22 mircea_popescu: atm, im blaming udp. and i would very much like to see it go away, right now.
asciilifeform: udp is in fact quite popular for ddos, and the fragging mechanism that drags folx into supporting stateful reassembly is the major enabler there
asciilifeform: ( sans fragging, it's entirely stateless, like bare ip )
asciilifeform: i grasp that sometimes cannot avoid stateful protocol, but the state belongs in the multi-opteron pc running the user proggy, not in the 32kB of misfortunate routers along the way
asciilifeform: one of the dozen foundational idjicies of the arpa people , was permitting 'allcomers' to clog up routing tables with state.
asciilifeform: it's what gives ddosism its teeth.
asciilifeform: to mathematize : if the validity of a received datum can depend not only on past , but on ~future~ data, you have a 'to allcomers' ram giveaway. precisely like the 'orphanages' etc
Mocky: mircea_popescu, 2015 thread including http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218061 http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218108 http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218171 ☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 14:41 mircea_popescu: udp is the problem atm.
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:08 mircea_popescu: and the general point is udp does not belong.
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:22 mircea_popescu: atm, im blaming udp. and i would very much like to see it go away, right now.
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu: Mocky ah ah. this was all from pov of web though.
mircea_popescu: "worst thing for trying to maintain websites is that udp exists"
mircea_popescu: but, yes, alf has a point : meanwhile read up ~on tcp~. despaired.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855353 << actually the winning conjunction here is that a) rsa message size is capped and b) udp packets are capped at ~same size. this is rapidly becoming a case of 4096 bit keys and 2048 bit packets and sayonara. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:15 Mocky: asciilifeform, O(1) crapolade packet rejection is already available in software with your FFA lib, if RSA over non-frag UDP was built on top, no?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, "* You are banned from this server- You have a host listed in the DroneBL. For more information," YEAR OLD listing in some obscure bs "database". ☟︎
mircea_popescu: frenode's teh shit.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855372 << ahahahaha. pigeoncustoms! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:26 asciilifeform: i.e. you'd have to ship'em out of BingoBoingostan in boxes.
Mocky: just need to breed strong pigeons that can carry 'return trip counterpart' plus payload
mircea_popescu: could stack these infinitely.
Mocky: BingoBoingo can get a new look: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/cd/26/a5cd26499cb08068f1451decd0da257a.jpg
mod6: Ace Bingo
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, managed to mount a " ", which is now unmountable.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855391 << this is why you're even going. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:56 Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855401 << fuck them. they have oddles of money they have no fucking clue what to do with. last fucking problem is taking money to qatar. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 17:00 Mocky: from appearances, qa version has similar "looks better to approvers if mega bucks will be invested" but also they are trying to 'silicon valley in Doha' so maybe some room at the 'bottom'
mircea_popescu: their problem is the population, consisting of a half black slaves, and the other half donkey fuckers, neither of which possessed of enough sense to come out of a paper bag if it rained scissors.
mod6: lol
mircea_popescu: and for all the arabic pretense, i'd be somewhat surprised if there's one guy in the whole country whose harem can toe to toe with mine.
mircea_popescu: considering the fucktarded shah of brunei, even, had the most ridiculous problems with women vaguely reminiscent of us army grunt.
BingoBoingo: Mocky: It is a possibilitit. The street dogs here are more reliable than many of the bipeds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ain't brunei 7000km east...
mircea_popescu: you mean geographically or culturally ?
asciilifeform: strictly former
asciilifeform: i think i get it tho
mircea_popescu: yeah, south china sea
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855437 << the headache is that a 4kb-key sig is ~4kb... ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 21:21 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855353 << actually the winning conjunction here is that a) rsa message size is capped and b) udp packets are capped at ~same size. this is rapidly becoming a case of 4096 bit keys and 2048 bit packets and sayonara.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no see, 4kb key, 4kb message consisting of 2kb plaintext and 2kb padding. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: but yes, the bojum is that with rsa you're always throwing away half the bandwidth.
mircea_popescu: much like with bitcoin you're throwing away half the energy.
mircea_popescu: the most serene republic of halvsies.
BingoBoingo: Except when it comes to bipeds. Republic discards more than halvsies.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even in naked (padless) rsa , sig is always of ~equal bitness to modulus
asciilifeform: i know of no pill against this
asciilifeform: ( and pretty sure we had the thread )
asciilifeform: ( or see diana_coman's rsa walkthrough, http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/ )
asciilifeform: where 'result will *always* be a block of 4096 bits (512 octets). Each such resulting block can hold at most 1960 bits (245 octets) of the original message' etc
asciilifeform: possibly i misread http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855464 , but gotta point out that the padding is not somehow separable from the message prior to decrypt, it is 'in' that final 4096bit output of the modexp ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 22:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no see, 4kb key, 4kb message consisting of 2kb plaintext and 2kb padding.
asciilifeform: at any rate this is not particularly catastrophic , all you need is 512byte
asciilifeform: which in so far as i can tell, doesn't frag.
asciilifeform: ( hence why i put that 512 as the initial guess for Payload_Size )
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: currently seems to me that nuffing below ~1400 actually frags on modern irons
asciilifeform: so you could potentially even get away with signed-x-inside-encrypted-y
asciilifeform: (~1kB)
mircea_popescu: maybe what we want to do here is actually get 11936 bit keys, and forever 1492 byte udp.
asciilifeform: heh if we had the giant fpga..
asciilifeform: 1492, 'sailed the oceans blue...'
mircea_popescu: aha!
Mocky: lel
asciilifeform: btw i'll add that if you use raw ip, you 'win' 8 'phree' bytes ( that normally eaten by udp header )
asciilifeform: gives you that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855126 # tho ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 23:56 asciilifeform discussed subj with asciilifeform's brother, who answered 'whaddayamean, what size packet, at $defunctgamesco we only ever used 1480, for decade, ideal'
asciilifeform: ( 20 eaten by ip hdr )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855439 << i found last night that ~nuffin from my old squirrelmail workhorse actually gets delivered any moar. prolly for this reason. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 21:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, "* You are banned from this server- You have a host listed in the DroneBL. For more information," YEAR OLD listing in some obscure bs "database".
asciilifeform: the jwzs destroyed emailism 100%.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the nonsense of keeping lists of enumerated badness that a) are obscure and b) are poorly maintained... srsly, random costa rican home ip ? these people live for what, 4 months in the same place ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure their actual objective was simply to herd the remaining folx who can't entirely get away from emailism, into the google/microshit corrals
asciilifeform: ~0 to do with spam in the usual sense.
asciilifeform: i actually bothered to peek in the logs on that box, it gets confronted with ssl crapola handshakes from the receiver's end and evidently doesn't spit out the hitler-approved answer
mircea_popescu: i don't recall how long it's been, but i've been happy enough emailess
asciilifeform: ( i dun have a corps of janissaries to fetch letters from hitler containing the ssl magic of-the-day )
asciilifeform: well, knuth managed it
mircea_popescu: i am not that old.
asciilifeform: lesser mortals still stuck with occasional emailism
asciilifeform: ( e.g. to/from vendors )
asciilifeform: e.g. most recently, BingoBoingo's customs crapolade
BingoBoingo interacts with substantial emailisms navigating orc hoardes
mircea_popescu appreciates.
asciilifeform: could be worse, i suppose they could all have been on aol...
asciilifeform: but email is rapidly converging to ~= aol
BingoBoingo: I dunno how many orcmade systems you interact with, but regression from AOL seems common
asciilifeform: y'mean ~to~ ?
BingoBoingo: No, I mean descent from. There is still lower than AOL.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: where's lower than aol, nao i'm curious
asciilifeform: ( funnily enuff, the local telecom monopoly where i get me fiberz bought what remained of aol. so finally the ancient nightmare is in a sense troo, asciilifeform is 'subscribed to aol' )
BingoBoingo: Well, the all time low of systems I interacted with is pre-Uruguay when I went to Southern Illinois University for my graduate philosophy stint. The independent university department had an interactive pdf web form everyone had to use to register for the sticker to keep their vehicles from getting kidnapped by University Parking.
BingoBoingo: 20,000 people including chosen urban youth, etc interacted with this system every year
BingoBoingo: To be clear this isn't a pdf merely filled out from the pdf reader. It is filled out and interacts(maybe interacted) with their backend system from pdf reader.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/this-is-not-bdsm/ << Trilema - This is not BDSM.