a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:36 phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already
asciilifeform: 'Note that the sender will send each size of package *only once* and it will simply finish once it sent one package of each size' << aaah
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:50 phf: asciilifeform: you're just spreading fud, i don't know where to start unpacking this conversation
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.
mircea_popescu: sadly there's no simple/just-add-water way out of "i've been ignoring this whole thing for x interval, wut nao". nao -- pick up from where you left off, what.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:56 asciilifeform: mod6: i dun like to discourage folx, esp. mircea_popescu's pupil, who is evidently pouring sweat into the job. but i expected the items would get better with time, and imho so far they haven't
mircea_popescu: but yes, the obnoxious part about the ignorant approach is that it purports to "identify as problems" the speciffic parts that are both well designed and functioning as designed, ie specifically the hash transition.
mircea_popescu: that alf manages to do this naturally and with i suspect no malice aforethought (or anything else aforethought at all) is in a sense supportive of the hopes of humanity -- apparently ignorance breeds the nonsense on its own, no "dark lizard" behind it all needed.
asciilifeform: upstack, re the udp experiment -- 1/sec is sorta 'cheating', no possibility of reorders
asciilifeform: ( afaik 1sec is way moar than long enuff for a packet to either make it, or vanish )
mircea_popescu: and diana_coman or hanbot or who will you pick have little problem in turning over next-day keccak patches on trees, as recently put on display. i don't think they're either smarter or blesseder than you, they just have the toolset ready.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wanna run one with .1 s or 10ms ? that might be a good move.
mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.☟︎
mircea_popescu: (and when didn't made it -- local interface dropping was the likely culprit)
mircea_popescu: that whole "1 packet per burst makes it" was very much "well doh, 1 gets sent at all"
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:57 phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-26 18:52 mircea_popescu: so delete them, then.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phunphakt : mixer worked GREAT 20y ago. when hardware dsp in sound blaster.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855041 << this is so, "here's a complete model" is a periodic necessity. just you know, can't complain that "not there jit when i wanted it". but yes in general, ur examples must be had, fully functional model trains must exist, etc. otherwise how to even run academia.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 16:08 asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol recall how we even ended up with v, ' asciilifeform : 'it is obvious!11 how to arrange trb patches' errybodyelse : 'nah' )
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:27 phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:54 asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it not only made for very picturesque output in old buggy vtrons, but pretty terrible for blood pressure, as turned out that the supposed 'disable fuzzy' flags dun actually do anyffin in gnupatch
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855218 >> players in sight of each other, all getting position updates for all others is *THE* central scaling 'n squared problem' for mmo. 20 byte position sent 4 times per second to 100 players is 8k/s per player. and 4 updates per second is really not enough for good playability when you factor in the round trip lag. 15/s is less draconian (many games send 30-60). 100 players gathered with 15 updates☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 01:14 mircea_popescu: but anyway, imo if mmorpg needs > kb/s connectivity something's misdesigned somewhere.
diana_coman: also, note that eulora does not enforce "all players within sight get position update" because server does not push basically; it's up to clients to request what they want, when and if they want it
diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855188 << nitpick: >1500byte always fragged, cuz ethernet. but! apparently get sewn back together in time. at least at the currently tried rates, and with mix of sizes ( remains to be seen what receiver will do with a summed MB/s of frags from different people )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:58 mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 06:24 diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps
asciilifeform: diana_coman: all of my testfires thus far ended up 'no loss, no reorder, as if on lan'
BingoBoingo: In other news, the morning news program "Buen Dia Uruguay" has a fat wrinkly bag on right now reading Tarot cards and making predictions for 2019
BingoBoingo: Apparently it is going to be a good year for pork and problematic year for snakes, of which I have yet to see any in this country
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what's the shortest delay you tried?
mod6: I'm about ready to start hunting too. It's getting close to that time of year.
asciilifeform: re : udpism : at the risk of rehashing some of the ancient gossipd thread, i'ma put a few notes re fragging :
asciilifeform: even if seems that 100% of 2/3-frag packets make it through in 'laboratory' conditions, still gotta remember that the frag reassembly buffer is the ~exact~ equivalent of the pre-trb 'block orphanage'☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. it is fundamentally an 'allcomers-can-claim-some-ram' item
asciilifeform: which not only complicates ip stack ( for when we write one ) but opens up to ddosability ( frags are take-it-or-leave-it, they dun even carry the port # )
asciilifeform: i for one would rather have no frag reassembly at all if writing ip stack. not only b/c complexity but also this.☟︎
asciilifeform: Mocky: incidentally, it is possible to do what i suggested to him then, which is to change the protocol # in the ip header and be generic ip, rather than udp . but only once we have own ip stack.
asciilifeform: of course ddosers can send packets with your new protocol # , it doesn't make you bulletproof
asciilifeform: the only final solution to ddos is O(1) crapolade packet rejection. ( preferably in iron )
asciilifeform: fragola makes this impossible in principle, you gotta stow N frags to get any sense of whether the full packet is friend or foe
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ? << There was a period when reddit hadn't yet given up on marginalizing the Republic and DDoS's were pestilential.
Mocky: Japanese robot seals ... wtf am i looking at right now, lol
asciilifeform: Mocky: in the past i attempted a fpga rsa also. sadly the 'ice40' would need to be about 250x bigger, for it to be bakeable
asciilifeform: ( as it is, ice40 won't even hold ~one~ 4096bit adder ! )
BingoBoingo: Mocky: I have the local news playing in the background. But they are talking about these guys. https://archive.is/RRHQ Mind the publication date and remember this country was Lego free until that awful movie came out.
asciilifeform: and i'ma never recommend to anyone the use of heathen 'rsa chips'. not even because they all, without exception, work with only 'toy' key lengths, but because srsly wtf.☟︎
mod6: can we get a squad of these seals to blockade runners for us:?
asciilifeform: mod6: i'll do it if absolutely nobody else wants to , but stretched rather thin, so give it coupla days if you can
mod6: I've asked a number of times in both castles, and a few individuals direclty (whom previously said they'd be willing); no takers yet -- however, still waiting on some info back before we're on our own. Will let you know.
asciilifeform: mod6: i'm pinching pennies in case i gotta do an expedition in near term
asciilifeform: if BingoBoingo doesn't pull off the ransoming of the crate, it will have to happen asap
mod6: *nod* makes sense. Once I get all of the info back I need, I'll send around a board comm so we're all on the same page, and will list some possible options.
Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do.☟︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:33 mircea_popescu: but yes, it was practically shown that a) no actual protection from ddos exists, outside of the ostrich method discussed above and b) udp is the key to this state of affairs.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:56 Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 17:00 Mocky: from appearances, qa version has similar "looks better to approvers if mega bucks will be invested" but also they are trying to 'silicon valley in Doha' so maybe some room at the 'bottom'
mircea_popescu: their problem is the population, consisting of a half black slaves, and the other half donkey fuckers, neither of which possessed of enough sense to come out of a paper bag if it rained scissors.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 21:21 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855353 << actually the winning conjunction here is that a) rsa message size is capped and b) udp packets are capped at ~same size. this is rapidly becoming a case of 4096 bit keys and 2048 bit packets and sayonara.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no see, 4kb key, 4kb message consisting of 2kb plaintext and 2kb padding.☟︎
mircea_popescu: but yes, the bojum is that with rsa you're always throwing away half the bandwidth.
mircea_popescu: much like with bitcoin you're throwing away half the energy.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 21:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, "* You are banned from this server- You have a host listed in the DroneBL. For more information," YEAR OLD listing in some obscure bs "database".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the nonsense of keeping lists of enumerated badness that a) are obscure and b) are poorly maintained... srsly, random costa rican home ip ? these people live for what, 4 months in the same place ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure their actual objective was simply to herd the remaining folx who can't entirely get away from emailism, into the google/microshit corrals
BingoBoingo: No, I mean descent from. There is still lower than AOL.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: where's lower than aol, nao i'm curious
asciilifeform: ( funnily enuff, the local telecom monopoly where i get me fiberz bought what remained of aol. so finally the ancient nightmare is in a sense troo, asciilifeform is 'subscribed to aol' )
BingoBoingo: Well, the all time low of systems I interacted with is pre-Uruguay when I went to Southern Illinois University for my graduate philosophy stint. The independent university department had an interactive pdf web form everyone had to use to register for the sticker to keep their vehicles from getting kidnapped by University Parking.
BingoBoingo: 20,000 people including chosen urban youth, etc interacted with this system every year
BingoBoingo: To be clear this isn't a pdf merely filled out from the pdf reader. It is filled out and interacts(maybe interacted) with their backend system from pdf reader.