asciilifeform: ( e.g. 6502, had ~3.5k, z80 - ~8.5 )

asciilifeform: i currently dun grasp what hole mircea_popescu sees in the 'amortize via konsoomer' hypothesis. near as i can tell, it was the exact pattern. 6502 was initially costly, and cost dropped precisely in proportion to how popular 'atari'.

asciilifeform: ( esp. considering that the transistors were placed by machine to begin with, so they aint in any human-comprehensible order like they are on z80 or 6502 etc )

asciilifeform: that 6502, is a 8 micron ic, almost half century old nao

asciilifeform: ( rsa on z80, 6502, etc. is ~nonstarter, even if one 'banks' the address lines to give enuff mem, the 8bit buggers lack a multiplier, so you get 'egyptian' speed )

asciilifeform: ( at one time i tried to rsa on 6502, it's a royal bitch on 8bit-wide chip with no multiplier )

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i've an unbuilt 'btc wallet on 6502' item, for instance.

asciilifeform: ( once in a veeeery long time, asciilifeform runs into some land-that-time-forgot where a greybeard owns the building and there are motherfucking blisterpacked z80's, 6502's, etc. hanging there, in dark yellowed plastic, since 1982... )

asciilifeform: 6502 has the advantage of history.

asciilifeform: !#s 6502

asciilifeform: or here http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-24#1489165 , say, is one made 'conventional' way, out of an actual historic 6502. complete comp, runs 'basic' , etc. ☝︎

asciilifeform: for contrast , here http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-01#1678049 is a 6502 cpu made by hand , of discretes. ☝︎

asciilifeform: this is entirely separate problem from 'i don't know how a 6502 worked'

asciilifeform: in other lulzy backlinx from asciilifeform's www, http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2944&p=57778#p57778 << 6502 enthusiasts , presumably some were not awake in the '80s-'90s , try to rederive carry-bit formula. d00d links asciilifeform's. which is hilarious because on what, do you suppose, asciilifeform originally studied...

asciilifeform: http://sasq.comyr.com/Stuff/Elektronika/6502_Opcodes_Table.png << oblig.

asciilifeform: the reason this was doable, was that mos6510 -- unlike ye olde 6502 -- had an extra register, that gave you 6 flippable bits , nonmemorymapped; and you could bank-switch with it

asciilifeform: i like z80. like 6502 even moar

asciilifeform: d00d designed a pcb, and wrote a basic for 6502, and afaik ended there

asciilifeform: this becomes 3 64-bit words on opteron; 6 32-bit words on pentium; 12 16-bit words on 8086; and 24 8-bit 'words' on 6502.

asciilifeform: in other iron, http://6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/m02/m02.htm << see also, handmade 6502...

asciilifeform: ftr i'm satisfied that 6502 was fully known.

asciilifeform: woz drew up a 6502 box with slightly reduced glue logic chip count, vs the state of art at the time. about same level of accomplishment as, e.g., fuckgoats.

asciilifeform: trinque: my 6502 also lacks 'management engine'

asciilifeform: and 6502

asciilifeform: it is part of why i have continued and daily interest in z80, 6502, and other 'museum pieces'

asciilifeform: i cannot speak for the folx mentioned above, but for me the appeal of, e.g., 6502, or of (pure 'sea of gates', a la FUCKGOATS) fpga work, is that there is 0 shit-in-the-dough

asciilifeform: btw there is one possibly interesting detail. there appears to be a large (how large, i have nfi) set of folks who publish ~actual~ work openly (recently i was on a kick of collecting 6502 and z80 design variations, adapted for present-day component availability for glue logic) and found a wealth of quality (as in, you lay it out on breadboard and it WORX) material. with multi-decade (yes) discussion.

asciilifeform: http://www.retro.co.za/ccc/apple2/paulrsm/6502/INTLST.TXT << woz's much more compact (4kB) float-less basic. ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://www.pagetable.com/docs/M6502.MAC.txt << the infamous microshit (yes, that one) 6502 basic.

asciilifeform: both scripting langs are turdalicious, heavy, and ill-defined. i will point out that 8-bit rom basics were seldom >4kB (e.g., 6502, z80 )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 6510 (6502 variant with 6 extra programmable pins)

asciilifeform: 'What’s more, exploit code requires an attacker to program in the arcane 6502 language designed for the NES processor, relying on the way the virtualized 6502 processor translates this code to deliver malicious instructions.' << cpu produced in greatest number in all of history of semiconductor --- 'arcane' ?!

asciilifeform: i have not succeeded in coming up with a 6502 rsatron that manages to generate a key before the battery (of any reasonable size) and the owner's patience give way.

asciilifeform: in other oldz, https://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/misc/6502-mul.html

asciilifeform: and imho 6502 is the more elegant animal.

asciilifeform grew up with 6502 (well, 6510, commodore) rather than mircea_popescu's z80, so it is dear to him

asciilifeform: phf: http://zx80.netai.net/grant/6502/Simple6502.html << to get you started... ☟︎

asciilifeform: but no, sram has no meaningful (at 6502 speed) latency

asciilifeform: 6502 had no barrrel shifter

asciilifeform: 6502 : ~3.5k transistorz.

asciilifeform: it's a 6502

asciilifeform: because 6502 aint got no mul.

asciilifeform: (6502 didn't have a barrel shifter, so a shift is a 2-cycle op per bit, assuming num is in accumulator.)

asciilifeform: in other not at all nyooz, http://everything2.com/title/Fast+6502+multiplication << witness the non-pedi-wikia.

asciilifeform: but you already have, chances are, a 6502 micro somewhere in the cellar.

asciilifeform: it runs on a 6502 !

asciilifeform: congrats! Z80 or 6502?

asciilifeform: http://www.visual6502.org/images/6502/index.html << moar for old thread re: same.

asciilifeform: appears to use a variant of the 6502 processor that is still made by western design inc.

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-09-2015#1259538 << what 'its own' ? afaik there were z80, 6502, and a few pdp-compatibles. nothing 'own'. ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: it beat the shit out of its contemporaries (z80, 6502) for instruction-compactness

asciilifeform: 6502 >> reissued! >> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/mouser-6502-motorola-6800-cpu-processor,14557.html

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what z80. mos 6502.