▁▁▁▁▁⏐︎ 14775
asciilifeform: it uses an algo from an ancient mircea_popescu thread
asciilifeform: ( 'pow in tx not in block' )
asciilifeform: but i'ma bbl: meat.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18893.0, vol: 13502.62107269 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18804.0, vol: 45094.04913747 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18765.2, vol: 3090.86572362 | Volume-weighted last average: 18821.5368925
shinohai: yay no more crumble #maga http://archive.is/kmHhk
shinohai: But I always like my apple kyklos cake a bit crumbly
asciilifeform wonders whether he gotta commit another warcrime in the spirit of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619719 , or to simply lay the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753876 item out in the l0gz, reasonably compactly. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 05:40 asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (CRACKPOTTERY) Notes re: one possible "TRB-I".
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 23:58 asciilifeform: ( it is specifically a pill against 'can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others' aspect )
phf: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway) ☟︎
asciilifeform: which is this, phf
phf: diff
asciilifeform: what does 'exclude' do
phf: right, realized too late :p
asciilifeform: no srsly what's it do
phf: there's a couple of places where regex is used. exclude filters files by name, (so --exclude=.*c will skip those files by regex), exclude lines filters lines (obviously is not compatible with v), and there's also a function grabber, it's a little piece of code that ensures that, say, c function headers or certain pattern matching lines are in the hunk context
asciilifeform: why wouldja do this, phf ?
asciilifeform: i've never done it
asciilifeform: i have scripts that ruthlessly thermonuke the kind of rubbish that doesn't get diffed, instead.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-20#1485519 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-20 04:23 phf: which is handy if you're using something else to produce the patch, or if you need to use a non-trivial diff command. for example i sometimes need to exclude files from diffing, so a command might look like diff -x foo -x bar -x qux -ruN a b | grep -v '^Binary files ' | vdiff > foo.vpatch
asciilifeform: ( e.g., gprclean actually cleans ffa . )
asciilifeform: that's what cleaning's for
phf: but i don't go into the details there either
phf: right
asciilifeform: dunwanna diff it -- dun put it where things are gettin'diffed
phf: hey, less work for me™
phf has been listening to The Dubliners, has a skewed perspective on work at the moment
phf does a little jig
asciilifeform: '...there's whiskey in the jar...'
phf: :D
phf: apropos out yesterday's mini thread about whisky. the only good kind of whisky comes in the jar
asciilifeform has yet to taste this mythical item, 'good whisky'
asciilifeform sings silently '...Говорили мне ребята: "Виски ты не пей", А я как только виски тресну, Так мне чудится фигня...'
asciilifeform: ( sores -- http://shaov.kulichki.com/texts/volshebstvo.htm )
asciilifeform: upstack re pow item : i'ma leave an observation for mircea_popescu ( and others, but he's prolly the one to crack this nut properly ) . consider how in classical bitcoin , pow is used for 2 entirely different and quite orthogonal items : initialcoindistribution, and rewindprotection (i.e. preventing history-rewriting) . it's a bulldog-rhinoceros. so q is, suppose that coin distribution somehow took place at t==0. do you still need po
asciilifeform: w for antireplay ? can you picture a scheme where... it doesn't.
asciilifeform: suppose the bulldog and rhinoceros were cut apart.
asciilifeform: *antirewind
asciilifeform: this gedankenexperiment should be seen in light of the earlier 'all tx have absolute position and make references to absolutepositional outputs' item from earlier 'trbi' thread.
asciilifeform: and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( i.e. when you craft such a tx, you're doing it against a specific picture of whole blockchain, from t==0 to your highestknownblock )
asciilifeform: prolly i'm doomed to describe a complete algo nao. so consider : no pow. a block is 2^20 bytes . it can hold a certain # of fixed-length tx ( i will not repeat earlier scheme, with the luby etc., imho it was adequate. ) ;
asciilifeform: however there is no block reward. anyone can proclaim a block, so long as he can find one or more valid tx that haven't sat down in a block yet. the 'pow value' of the block , for the purpose of longest-chain, however, consists of the ~total coins moved~ in the tx-en that sat down in it.
asciilifeform: to prevent 1 d00d with fat wallet from monopolizing all future blocks, would have to count 'mass' only for resolving forks of length 1 . (i.e. 1 block, however 'heavy', cannot 'outweigh' 2. )
asciilifeform: i modelled this item on paper, and did not find any obvious place in which to put a crowbar and make the thing break apart in the 'rewrite history' sense.
asciilifeform: but entirely possible that it was in my blind spot. so i'ma leave this here, and make moar detailed sketch if mircea_popescu asks , later.
asciilifeform: ( to complete the picture above : no pow, but a tx ~does~ carry a lubyism, e.g. three lengths of 64bits , each of these the xor of 3 64bit substrings of the world-state, hashtronically selected based ~strictly on the tx payload's hash~ -- nothing to waltz, yer stuck with so-and-so lubyism obligation to fulfill by virtue of yer inputs being such-an-such and yer outputs such-an-such )
phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312 ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: oh hey
asciilifeform: neato, phf
asciilifeform: to round out the crackpottery : i've described what is more or less a working variant of ye olde warcrime, the multiverse coin ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( each candidate-tx is irreversibly bound to its author's picture-at-the-time of the complete world history )
asciilifeform: phf: lemme guess, it was by nuking autoconf
asciilifeform: ( it was perhaps 80% of how asciilifeform cut koch-mpi , by similar proportion )
phf: it's not even the entirety of autoconf, just things that are left un-included after fixing all the "missing file" errors from diff.c
asciilifeform: kill autoconf. it has no place in this world.
asciilifeform: it Must Die.
phf: well, autoconf is not just scripts. it's also compatibility shims, which is a bit tricky in case of a differ, since, unlike mpi, it has a lot of file system interaction code, that might or might not be portable. anyway, we'll see
asciilifeform: i suspect that if you ditch autoconf, and snip out ALL #ifdef crapola (esp. and inclusive of uniturdism and 'localism' ) you will end up with a sysv-sized util
phf: obviously i'm not actually building it with autoconf
phf: -l --paginate
phf: Pass the output through `pr' to paginate it.
phf: wtf.
asciilifeform: lol feepingcreaturism
phf: not to mention a fucking palette parser
phf: trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ? ☟︎
phf: there's a concrete answer to that question!
asciilifeform: dafuq?
phf: well, if you baked in color support, your code periodically enables a color mode, but doesn't immediately disable it. instead colors spit out as the execution unfolds. but if you catch an interrupt, you end up with a borked terminal. hence fucking complicated ass signal machinery to ensure that color gets restored on hup or suspend
asciilifeform: ffs
asciilifeform: kill it with fire.
trinque noticing extremely fucky behavior around sending transactions with trb over the last few days at least.
trinque: mats pointed out to me that all trb nodes he can see appeared to be consistently 50 blocks or more behind.
trinque: obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753889 << get rid of regex ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:08 phf: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753920 < obviously. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:33 asciilifeform: and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a non-mining coin, ie, where all coins are created at t0.
asciilifeform: yea but would described algo wurk.
asciilifeform: ... or can unwind.
mircea_popescu: can unwind.
asciilifeform: lesse how ?
mircea_popescu: consider. how does your system discard forks ?
asciilifeform: when you craft a tx, it presupposes 1 particular history.
asciilifeform: and is invalid outside of it.
mircea_popescu: yes. but when you encounter two different chains, how do you choose one ?
asciilifeform: in the proposed algo -- the block, from all the alternatives you have, with greatest summed coinmovement
mircea_popescu: so if at t0 the chain is C, and at t1 large owners decide they don't like C and retroactively create C' ?
mircea_popescu: how can non-usg node correctly identify C' as retcon ?
asciilifeform: why would anyone build on their alt-world tho
asciilifeform: when baking tx
mircea_popescu: this question means the scheme's dead.
asciilifeform: i dungetit
mircea_popescu: by the time you ask "why would anyone choose the wrong color bits" you've moved from protocol to promise.
asciilifeform: i still dungetit
mircea_popescu: well, which part ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << bless you. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753946 << good god. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 03:37 phf: trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your picture seems to be a variant of the 'isolated node' argument. except nao with the sides reversed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somethinglike that.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "no time", see ? it's that now... no time!
mircea_popescu: that's the iffy thing about blocks. not so much the "work", but the metronome.
asciilifeform: so i'ma borrow mircea_popescu's orig argument, 'dont ever be isolatednode'
asciilifeform: then no crowbar.
mircea_popescu: this alt-granpa pistol is no replacement for the actual item
mircea_popescu: i don't want a different flavour of footshooting musket.
asciilifeform: it couldn't, even if entirely flawless, it dun distribute coin
asciilifeform: q is more re fundamentals. suppose you had another, yet-unspecified means to distributecoin.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753954 << i have up to date nodes ; both trb and legacy. but the phenomena described is recurrent since at least 18 months ago. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 04:09 trinque: obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes.
asciilifeform trying very different tack re 'trbi' than in prev thread, instead of massive warcrime , series of small gedankenexperiment.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in which vein : nothing wrong in principle with the idea (of all-coins-given-at-t0) but you will have to solve the problem of time.
asciilifeform: trinque: 'zoolag' still 30k behind
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'don't be in a cave' is not solution ?
mircea_popescu: to the problem of time ?
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: no it's not a solution. it reduces to "bring your own missing parts of this bitcoin"
trinque: I'm simply unable to transmit transactions at times; they show up in no other mempool.
trinque: this along with the transparently obvious sybil logs I posted the other day
trinque: anyhow, investigation continues.
mircea_popescu: trinque the only known pill is keeping large pile of secretly connected nodes, measuring who mothballs you and why, sending assassins over,
mircea_popescu: it's a whole game of dumbass.
mircea_popescu: the sad fact of bitcoin relay network is that it actually forces people who aren't to nevertheless act like idiots.
mircea_popescu: "because someone somewhere might"
mircea_popescu: this sad is dissected in logs last someone mentioned this. which might've been me, last year ish
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't cleat to me that wot isn't the troo solution to time. e.g. 'i'ma follow the multiverse mircea_popescu picks, and fuck everyone'
asciilifeform: *clear to
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly.
trinque: yep, my reaction has been to invest in node-deployment tooling, more nodes, idiot IP blocking and all that
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << 24132 ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
trinque: wd
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this just makes us a larger mp, you understand ? girl going "hail master, i am yours to command" does not resolve the problem.
asciilifeform: there may not ultimately be another solution.
asciilifeform: chinese liquishit is no future.
mircea_popescu: maybe not.
asciilifeform: at least i formalized how.
asciilifeform: ( possibly it was already obvious, how. )
mircea_popescu: anyway, one approach might be to a) create a scalar worldfunction and b) force reference to the discrete value of it. which is what pow ineptly tries to do.
mircea_popescu: but i suspect as implemented it is blind peculiarization of more general concept that needs unearthing.
asciilifeform: i gave an example scalar, 'coins moved but over 1 block delta'. it is by no means the only possible.
mircea_popescu: (in the discussion re http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ the item involved is a more elaborate... world function.)
asciilifeform: notice that item in this thread makes no reference to how-hashed or other technominutiae .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform coins moved is a phenomenology function. worldfunction must discuss states.
mircea_popescu: indeed. no reason to.
asciilifeform: i can rven
asciilifeform: errr
asciilifeform: grr
asciilifeform: even picture various worldfuncts coexisting. genuine multiversecoin.
asciilifeform: the ants, their own, cockroaches, their own, men -- their own.
mircea_popescu: hm ?
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: and yes mircea_popescu this item is an attempt at the unified theory, rather than proposal for concrete cointron.
asciilifeform: very rough attempt.
mircea_popescu: this is entirely new field, in fact, as http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753861 etc : we don't even really understand what worldfunction si supposed to be. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 23:33 asciilifeform: after 5yr of thinking about it daily, asciilifeform still has nfi what even ought to be asked of a pow !!
mircea_popescu: but it'd seem that in point of fact what is needed is a reliable description of all factual existence.
mircea_popescu: doesn't have to be complete being the only grace.
asciilifeform: pow where having found the prev champ is of ~any~ advantage, is ipso facto retarded tho.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu already observed.
mircea_popescu: maybe "any" is too strong. but if one can take decision based on it, there's the evident problem
asciilifeform: and currently i'm of the mind that pow is an idiot substitute for wot.
mircea_popescu: well... call it a bootstrap
mircea_popescu: in all factuality we wouldn't have wot were there not pow.
asciilifeform: i duncare what obummer and gavin have to say re the worldstate,
asciilifeform: perfectly happy to replace pow with my wot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform up to a point. if they came up with say riemann falsification , you'd care.
asciilifeform: they haven't tho.
asciilifeform: and won't.
mircea_popescu: nor wioll.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: anyway. "discretized worldfunction", which is ~what pow+blockchain is, has obvious advantages.
asciilifeform: and disadvantages.
mircea_popescu: i don't mean here what rando-idiot thinks those are. i mean the actual article,
mircea_popescu: i clearly remember gushing in the log many years ago, but can't seem to find. anyway : difficulty worked.
asciilifeform: the asic-building tourney is intrinsically cartelizing.
mircea_popescu: it scaled remarkably well, much better than expected really ; and much better than expectable. this exceedingly close coupling between model and reality isn't, to my knowledge, seen before in human industry.
asciilifeform: scaled all the way into becoming a chinese national property.
mircea_popescu: nevermind that.
mircea_popescu: the fact that blocktimes today are SO DAMNED CLOSE to the range intended 8 years ago in spite of diff going up 1e20 is unmatched.
mircea_popescu: not even seen in nature, such things.
asciilifeform: how could they move ? it's a pretty hard thermostat
mircea_popescu: the point is that it worked.
asciilifeform: it was obvious that it'd work, in this sense, on day1
mircea_popescu: you do not encounter a phenomena where you go from 1 to 1e20 smoothly.
mircea_popescu: it was not obvious to me.
asciilifeform: i can picture that it'd impress folx who experienced 'typical' technology being webolade, ducttape, perl. the way austrian bidet impressed asciilifeform's grandfather.
asciilifeform: an sram, sah,
asciilifeform: say,
asciilifeform: by that token evenmoaf
mircea_popescu: name item, man-made or natural, that presents this property.
asciilifeform: rmoar impressive
asciilifeform: your cpu.
mircea_popescu: what about my cpu ?
asciilifeform: worx same from 1hz to 1e9.
mircea_popescu: cpu transistor count is what, 1e10 ?
mircea_popescu: that is NOWHERE CLOSE.
mircea_popescu: and if you're proposing 2017 vintage intel cpu works anything like a diode you're in for a world of hurt.
asciilifeform: dunno re intel's turd, but plenty of static (i.e. clocks from dc to max) on embedded market.
asciilifeform: the cpld in fg, for instance.
mircea_popescu: what's its range ?
asciilifeform: dc to 250mhz approx
asciilifeform: !#s xc9572
a111: 1 result for "xc9572", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xc9572
asciilifeform: !~google xc9572
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Xilinx DS065 XC9572 In-system Programmable CPLD Data Sheet: <https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds065.pdf>; XC9572 -15PQG100C Xilinx Inc. | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey: <https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC9572-15PQG100C/122-1445-ND/966626>; XC9572 -15PC44I Xilinx Inc. | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: ^ subj
mircea_popescu: very halpful, look, a pdf.
mircea_popescu: that redirects.
asciilifeform: 125
mircea_popescu: fucktards. dja realise that link is dead ?
asciilifeform: dunno where i remembered 250. gotta be from lattice-ice
asciilifeform: it's alive, fwiw, loads
mircea_popescu: anyway. so the range is approx 1e8
mircea_popescu: it redirected me to oh i see what happened
asciilifeform: if all you want is range, can say that a glass bottle as easily holds 1 molecule of water, as....
asciilifeform: mega-range.
mircea_popescu: not much of a machinery.
asciilifeform: point is, scale alone dun impress, or we'd all eat, very impressedly, at mickey d
mircea_popescu: machinery that behaves as intended over a large range of inputs impresses me. this isn't mandatory for anyone.
asciilifeform: i have nuffin against mircea_popescu's beingimpressed.
mircea_popescu: now, the accomplishment here is that it tied a theoretical model to future development in reality.
mircea_popescu: this is no small matter generally.
mircea_popescu: consider, making a clock that works equally well over 1e20 time units,
mircea_popescu: etcetera.
mircea_popescu: women ~generally make children, but that's only 3e12 cells or so.
asciilifeform: in the time it took you to write this, yer fg clock beat out 28^20 time units.
mircea_popescu: it did ?
asciilifeform: err, ~2+
asciilifeform: ~14mhz
mircea_popescu: 2^20 ~= 10^6 ?
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: folx spit on quartz resonators, but they're a quite remarkable thing.
mircea_popescu: no argument. they are.
mircea_popescu: still not quite AS remarkable as discussed here, but yes.
asciilifeform: compared to, say, naive self-feedbacking inverter clock, or r-c clock.
mircea_popescu: i suspect quartz hating is because obsoleting the last remnant of pre-socialism tech, the mechanical movement.
asciilifeform: more often because it loses to 'atomic' clock, which seems to derps to be much cheaper than it is because inca broadcast
mircea_popescu: broadcast nevertheless is the ~only economical way to clock.
mircea_popescu: for a while it was church tower, same inca principle.
asciilifeform: dunno, rubidium clock costs nomoar than a typical comp
asciilifeform: and cesium -- about same as 'rolex'
asciilifeform: ( presupposing yer doing precision, vs accuracy-to-inca, the latter circularly presupposes inca broadcast as only winner )
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform pretty close to where more often than not thinks 'hm, rubidium or save pennies and cesium'
asciilifeform: btw iirc we had a mechanical clock collector d00d... pete_dushenski ?
asciilifeform pictures, suppose somebody were to try an' 'veblenize' cesium fountain
asciilifeform: picture, knapsack.
asciilifeform bbl, but suspects that we'll meet this thread again.
ben_vulpes: ohey have we finally arrived at the solution of each laird maintaining their own premined coin?
mircea_popescu: heh
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am very curious in how you figure initial distribution might work ☟︎☟︎
ben_vulpes: although perhaps that is the only thing that will eventually differentiate the trilema fiatists products
mircea_popescu: one coin per l1.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557667 << thread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 01:10 mircea_popescu: it'd be literally a measure of social intercourse
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754013 << 11753, well that's enough for tonight ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 04:27 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << 24132
mircea_popescu: 12k is almost human ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes look into teh whole medieval history. two salient points : a) "honor", especially "why would it be said that the enchroaching of king into chivalry through pretense of fons honorum actually destroyed it" ; b) tenement, especially in the sense of subinfeudation.
mircea_popescu: but yes, this comes with the necessity of considering eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751602 as "a coin has been minted" ; i don't see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753931 as anything other than an abstract rendering of the exact practical reality ☝︎☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-14 19:42 mircea_popescu: phf are you amenable to re-writing diff btw ? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-06#1747792 is going to happen later this year, and v-immutability is a pita.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:52 asciilifeform: to round out the crackpottery : i've described what is more or less a working variant of ye olde warcrime, the multiverse coin
mircea_popescu: that you don't "need to make a coin" for this should be evident, in the sense that the "coin" already exists. (not to mention -- http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1752985 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 01:37 mircea_popescu is thinking of actually starting a chivalry order.
mircea_popescu: fundamentally, the "quo warranto" inquiry is exactly equivalent to transaction verification.
shinohai: http://archive.is/ibMMr <<< This was some lulzy SFYL
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i can picture that it'd impress folx who experienced 'typical' technology being webolade, ducttape, perl. the way austrian bidet impressed asciilifeform's grandfather. << AHA, in Uruguay no excuse for walking around with stink butt
BingoBoingo: Datacenter visit was very pleasant
BingoBoingo: Very well cooled, racetrack cabling to racks very clean, mega fire supression
BingoBoingo: And very importantly, they have space to fill
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 17977.03, vol: 16186.23175455 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 17569.0, vol: 51044.12132472 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 17934.7, vol: 3487.02834816 | Volume-weighted last average: 17680.4248612
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: datacenters are ~always more or less ~same, visually.
asciilifeform: the differences are not in that some have roaches and others mice, no. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Details vary, even among this operator's different halls. This operator's older halls use racetrack designed for electrical conduit. The new hall uses coated racetrack designed for networking cables
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754135 << emphasis was quite deliberate on 'this is orthogonal to the problem contemplated'. yes, it is solvable, there are several known obvious solutions. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 05:56 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am very curious in how you figure initial distribution might work
BingoBoingo: But the fellow I talked to recieved a clear understanding of what I am and am not looking for.
asciilifeform: neato, BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: lemme know when yer ready to take a box
BingoBoingo: I will keep you informed.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754142 << 12k of 'idiomatic c' is still pretty heavy. but not intractable. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:10 mircea_popescu: 12k is almost human
asciilifeform: !#s idiomatic c
a111: 12 results for "idiomatic c", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=idiomatic%20c
BingoBoingo: Will you be flying down with the box?
asciilifeform: ^ see also
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possibly, but it dun make sense for just 1 ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Ah, better get to boxing then. Apparently when summer ends the weather is un poco menos divine.
asciilifeform: well i actually ~like~ winter, so.
BingoBoingo: Lol, the fellow went to great lengths to caution me on how cold winter gets here while staying above 0C
BingoBoingo: Do remember if you choose to stay in my hostel to bring clothes you don't mind burning later porque los chinches de cama ☟︎
asciilifeform: ugh
BingoBoingo will prolly do the ivermectin thing later this week
asciilifeform: somehow i didn't expect delousing as one of the expenses...
BingoBoingo: Well, there's accomodations nearby where the staff get paid in dinero instead of accomodations, without rapidly turning beds in rooms that accomodate 8 people.
BingoBoingo: International travel is a dirty business.
asciilifeform: hey , asciilifeform takes off his hat to BingoBoingo's 'fuel efficiency'
BingoBoingo figures if the Colombians y Brasileros/Brasileras don't complain too loudly what is his place to do so.
BingoBoingo: Not to mention when apartment time comes it presents a ready opportunity for remediating the issue
BingoBoingo: !!up The20YearIRCloud
deedbot: The20YearIRCloud voiced for 30 minutes.
The20YearIRCloud: It's a Christmas Miracle!
BingoBoingo: Que es?
The20YearIRCloud: Had to say something, guess that's my best try
asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: y'know you don't have to talk if you dunwanna
The20YearIRCloud: Yeah but I'm voiced, must be a early Christmas present?
asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: iirc you were the fella with the flats-let-out-for-btc . how's that coming along ?
The20YearIRCloud: Good, we should hit 85 rentals by end of year
The20YearIRCloud: Used the BTC to buy the first 18 if memory serves me right, rest has been bank capital and partnerships
asciilifeform: unless i'm missing something, that sounds like a terrible deal
asciilifeform: i.e. you spent btc presumably some months ( years ? ) ago, and letting them flats out for 'dust' today
asciilifeform: how many centuries to make the coin back ?
The20YearIRCloud: Including the BTC appreciation rate, or including what it was worth at the time?
asciilifeform: ( and that's if it exchange rate were to somehow freeze 4evah at current, even )
BingoBoingo: Including the USD crumble rate
The20YearIRCloud: Because matching the BTC appreciation/escalation with any investment is just about impossible.
The20YearIRCloud: Just like any service, good, etc ever purchased with bitcoin
asciilifeform: forget about matching, how about simply not burning the coin
The20YearIRCloud: What do you mean burning?
asciilifeform: i.e. you oughta get the btc you spent, back , at the very least
asciilifeform: ( see , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-10#1749209 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-10 01:32 danielpbarron: i replaced the coin used to by mine at the time i bought them, so that works for me
BingoBoingo: Vos intentai de nuevo?
The20YearIRCloud: From property income? Then yes if you consider the USD. From the outset I explained to everyone that we'd be dealing primarily in USD, accepting BTC from tenants wherever possible. As of today I've had a grand sum of 3 people ask me about truly getting involved in bitcoin
asciilifeform: oook so it isn't a btc biznisss at all...
asciilifeform: more liek what dell and microshit do
The20YearIRCloud: Correct, never was, it's a real estate business
asciilifeform: aite. snoar.
asciilifeform: !!down The20YearIRCloud
danielpbarron: glad i replaced them but to be perfectly honest i'd have been better off keeping both the bitcoin spent while also buying the re-up. I justify it as a hedge against possible bitcoin price decrease and as a public service for the republic ☟︎
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i'm thick; what means 're-buying the re-up' ?
danielpbarron: but if i'm gonna go down that road, shoulda bought 1k BTC for 1 USD. should have lived off ramen noodles for the last 7 years while i put all income into a wallet.dat
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: not too late to do the latter, neh
danielpbarron: well i spent 2 bitcoin on some FGs, then i bought 2 bitcoin. I should have kept all 4 bitcoin, right?
asciilifeform: hell knows, asciilifeform takes every chance ( rare chances...) to buy coinz
danielpbarron: it's unlikely i will ever have a fiat income again
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: dunno, sounds like your fg dealership was and still is an effective device for converting btc into fiatola to buy bread, at slightly higher efficiency than otherwise
asciilifeform: ( given as you immediately refilled btc coffer )
danielpbarron: depending on what time frame you look at, it's extremely lucrative
danielpbarron: 15 USD cost basis, sells for 200+ on eBay
asciilifeform: aha, see.
asciilifeform: folx still buyin' ?
danielpbarron: i've got over 1k USD in sales in just a week, but the last auction finished with no bids ☟︎
danielpbarron: someone expressed interest in a gentoo laptop though, so that's my next eBay project
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Have you thought about selling gentoo servers, specializing in easing the transition to Cuntoo?
danielpbarron: yes, actually
danielpbarron: i have those too
BingoBoingo: What kind of hardware are you building those with? As ISP develops would be nice to know what a republican box builder is offering.
danielpbarron: bought a bunch of things that asciilifeform mentioned. hp workstations with operteron cpus, ecc ram. got a bunch of 1 gig ssds etc
BingoBoingo: Ah, have you outlined a box you can build arbitrary quantities off using off the shelf parts?
danielpbarron: i'm working on a laptop now and of course my recipe doesn't work again. I'm gonna try cp -r'ing the distfiles in from a working box for the initial setup
danielpbarron: i don't know about arbitrary quantities, i'm sure asciilifeform would say the price spikes if you try to buy more than 10
BingoBoingo: Well, something you could produce 80 of, that's two racks
danielpbarron: hey if any hardware distributor has that qty of the thing we want, i can probably afford to pay for it in bitcoin and recieve a pallet
asciilifeform: 1 gig ssd ?!
asciilifeform: what's the use of a 1 gig ssd
danielpbarron: err, 1 tb sorry
asciilifeform: aaa
BingoBoingo: It's something to look out for. Perhaps you could look into maximum desity apu traying too danielpbarron
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform will reveal that he found a 'new' (to him) and very spiffy type of amd g-series box , suitable for trb and similar
asciilifeform: 'wyse' made a series of gui-terminals , but with sata disk , fanless , based on very similar mobo to 'pcengines' ☟︎
asciilifeform: they are widely sold as surplus today, about fiddybux ( naturally diskless ) ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: 4 core @ 1.5G , 4G ram , dc brick included.
asciilifeform: some floating about that go to 1.7.
asciilifeform: GB nic.
asciilifeform: this is afaik the cheapest amd64 box 'bang for buck', currently around.
asciilifeform: and 4G typically suffices to run trb 'year-round'.
BingoBoingo: Interesting
phf: recent gpgme doesn't build with gnupg@1.4 out of the box
mircea_popescu: iirc they even said they're breaking it.
mircea_popescu: a few months after we standardized it (and without reference, OF COURSE)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754158 << if only. he has a point, they're not all the same thing. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:39 asciilifeform: the differences are not in that some have roaches and others mice, no.
asciilifeform: !#s gpgme
a111: 44 results for "gpgme", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gpgme
asciilifeform never used it
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754144 << misstated. "a coin has been ~spent~". obviously it was minted whenever the fuck the possibility of having the item appeared, which is probably before the big bang. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:18 mircea_popescu: but yes, this comes with the necessity of considering eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751602 as "a coin has been minted" ; i don't see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753931 as anything other than an abstract rendering of the exact practical reality
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754172 << why not ? great boating area, either you or girl ever saw uruguay ? ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:42 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possibly, but it dun make sense for just 1
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754176 << holy shit what! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:46 BingoBoingo: Do remember if you choose to stay in my hostel to bring clothes you don't mind burning later porque los chinches de cama
mircea_popescu: almost like living in silicon valley!
phf: perhaps we can get g_l to move there ☟︎
shinohai: Except the pests are actual insects
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754215 << there's always a better path through history with retrospective power. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 15:21 danielpbarron: glad i replaced them but to be perfectly honest i'd have been better off keeping both the bitcoin spent while also buying the re-up. I justify it as a hedge against possible bitcoin price decrease and as a public service for the republic
mircea_popescu: other than the "hey, i spent like 100k usd for these cufflinks" lulz, there's also "hey, this slavegirl who was doing basic training made like 100 btc freelancing in 2012. so i'm today ~2mn usd richer because owning obedient slut."
mircea_popescu: what am i supposed to say now, "if only i had five more and pushed them harder, i could buy a las vegas casino ?"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754228 << ahaha epic. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 15:28 danielpbarron: i've got over 1k USD in sales in just a week, but the last auction finished with no bids
mircea_popescu: apparently shit asciilifeform makes sells ok, for just as long as it isn't him selling.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: tho gotta point out, every single unit sold to date was first 'him selling'
asciilifeform: and only then wherever.
mircea_popescu: :p
asciilifeform: in other noose, raid cards work.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754265 << haven't yet seen uruguay, nope. but also haven't yet a boat. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754172 << why not ? great boating area, either you or girl ever saw uruguay ?
mircea_popescu: can rent
asciilifeform: troo!
mircea_popescu: best way, as per teh older discussion re your newly discovered interrest in boats.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu quickly figured out, asciilifeform's interest in boats is of a very peculiar kind, and not simply because he likes water.
asciilifeform: ( and i concede the point to mircea_popescu , boat prolly does not work for the contemplated use , in the general case )
mircea_popescu: which is my point, your interest in women consists of dreaming succubi.
asciilifeform pets succubus
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754272 << traditional formulation is 'yesterday's lotto number' ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:26 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754215 << there's always a better path through history with retrospective power.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754270 << i was about to say, 'i've nfi what d00d is still doing in usa' but then remembered he's 1legged nao ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:23 phf: perhaps we can get g_l to move there
asciilifeform: going on 1leg is slow. esp if you have nfi that you oughta be going somewhere, and doped to 11.
asciilifeform: i also wonder whether gabriel_laddel ever considered vegas. it has slightly better odds than sv nonsense, and with fewer pounds of flesh required as table stake
shinohai: Is it just coincidence that asciilifeform pets succubus and diana_coman enters, or ..... ?
phf: hmm, re differ, we're basically nuking all "ignore" functionality, since from hash to hash..
asciilifeform: lol shinohai , will confess, asciilifeform never once met diana_coman
asciilifeform: phf: 'ignore', 'merge', anything pertaining to either
asciilifeform: a patch either applies cleanly or something is Very Wrong
asciilifeform: elsewhere, asciilifeform contemplates , of what is made the black soot that one finds inside servers. wish i still had where to gc/ms...
phf: yeah, but killing obviously bad code is so much easier then killing a not bad code that you don't need
asciilifeform: phf: there's no place for 'merge' as a concept in a vtronic system.
asciilifeform: sorta foundational.
phf: that's true, though "ignore" functionality can still work. in fact nuking all that stuff means that i will still need a traditional differ for code manipulation
phf: for example i have a set of patches that i've not had a chance to cleanup, that diff mp's addition on top of the released version of wordpress. that patchset could only by successfully produced by ignoring whitespace changes, and adding a handful of filters for cosmetic alterations
mircea_popescu: phf ayup.
mircea_popescu: phf the correct approach to this is pre-diff filtering masks. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: stuff like "two spaces after dot" vs "one space after dot" and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-17#1752560 do not, properly speaking, belong in diff. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 03:52 mircea_popescu does his usual s%\n\n%\r\r% s%\n% % s%\r\r%\n\n% while muttering underbreath about the idiocy of fucktards who STILL DON'T UNDERTAND NEWLINE STANDS FOR NEW PARAGRAPH!!11
phf: right, or `indent'
mircea_popescu: yes. but it is a conceptual failure on the part of diff that it presents these.
mircea_popescu: when i diff i want to see what you changed, not what your editor changed.
mircea_popescu: (editor, as in, the human person, not as in the "editor" ie ide)
trinque awakes to see a trb node with wallet excised, synced to 200k
mod6: o.O
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> Except the pests are actual insects << Aha, persistent bugs, but yes. Can not fault them for following travellers.
shinohai: Are pyrethrins legal there?
trinque: mod6: this will probably end up being a separate branch. my needs with deedbot are diverging from "preserve grandfather's pistol".
BingoBoingo: Yes, but packaging only lists active pesticide ingredients by family here. Not by particular active ingredient and percentage.
mircea_popescu: trb-as for anti-sybil.
trinque: yeah, I'm cracking the thing open for maximum external control.
shinohai: That sucks, ou'll have to grow a fuckton of chrysanthemums and extract our own.
trinque: and if I understand this "trickle" thing correctly, wtf, that's coming out. what privacy? blast my txn to everyone you know.
mircea_popescu: early bootstrap is always ugly.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the original holder threads were never meaningfully revisited. this is a 10yo suture wound with the first silks still attached. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: shinohai: The critters have numerous avenues for developing resistance to contact insecticides, so applying permethrins is typically an arms race. Hence leaning towards the imaclopramid solution.
mircea_popescu: because hey, "core developers" too busy eating my asshole.
BingoBoingo: Well did you bidet antes, despues, o ambos
mircea_popescu: it's a metaphore!
BingoBoingo: Metaphores can trasmit tastes!
diana_coman: in "only 2 years later" but since I did not find otherwise in the logs an answer to mod6's question at http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-20#1139680 : that is simply the number of limbs, so a matter of size; since p and q are same size, it is fine there although arguably not helping the reader ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-05-20 00:29 mod6: take a look at this: http://dpaste.com/0SQPBKC.txt Is there any reason when allocating the space for p & q to do Eulers totient they would initialize the space with 'p' and 'p', instead of 'p' & 'q'?
mircea_popescu: bad coding altogether.
mircea_popescu: in that it bakes metasyntaxis into the code.
diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory ☟︎
mircea_popescu: cheap "cleverness" of the male virginarium aka monastery ; in same vein see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-08#1499583 ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-08 14:37 mircea_popescu: fucking "take moar oestrogen" confucius & "wanna hear our inept teenage boyish oneupmanships" zeo-dan derps.
asciilifeform: the 'secure memory' thing is entirely red herring imho. all it means is that it gets marked unswappable. but i dun have swap on any of my boxes, period.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, myeah, I suspect it's sloppiness, "but it's same thing"
asciilifeform: ftr i dun plan to include 'secure memory'ism in ffa.
asciilifeform: fuck swap.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's fine to say no secure memory,sure; it's not fine to pretend it is used but then "use" it like in the example
asciilifeform: koch wouldn't be koch if he did not write it like-so.
asciilifeform: at one point asciilifeform planned to cut out the allocator from mpi entirely, but ditched whole thing before ever getting there.
trinque: can't waste all the security anointing oil on one proggy. gotta save some for the rest of god's children!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754329 << ben_vulpes had pretty good likbez, http://cascadianhacker.com/21_a-tour-of-bitcoind-booting-to-its-first-thread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: and yes, the original holder threads were never meaningfully revisited. this is a 10yo suture wound with the first silks still attached.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754311 << this is how asciilifeform originally thought to make the file-moves thing, with the 'manifest', i.e. list of commands that get executed on the dataset pre-diff ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:57 mircea_popescu: phf the correct approach to this is pre-diff filtering masks.
asciilifeform: incl. mv, cp, tr/sed.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18271.36, vol: 16334.75608486 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 17988.0, vol: 54696.77945933 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18208.0, vol: 3801.41479341 | Volume-weighted last average: 18061.0283614
asciilifeform: ( who recalls the mircea_popescu tabs-spaces thread... )
trinque: hm, dunno whether I want to execute someone's script during a press. ☟︎
diana_coman raises hand
trinque: or at least, scripting would have to be severely limited, lest the thing become vthereum
asciilifeform: trinque: sorta why i didn't particularly itch to go there
trinque: aha
asciilifeform: gets very ugly, very quickly.
mircea_popescu: secure memory as a concept is actually pretty good, if implemented correctly. implemented as "not swapped" it's not useful, but if it were "untouchable by any other" it'd be useful.
mircea_popescu: ofcoruse such a thing can not exist until we actually make tmsr-computer without dma
mircea_popescu: so in this sense i agree "secure memory" on current iron is not worth bothering with.
mircea_popescu: but the concept itself is sound.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is only meaningful concept if whole machine.
mircea_popescu: which yes, kock wouldn't be koch if he didn't live to try and befoul the tools of salvation through association with his turpitudes.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-16#1656782 << securememory. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 01:53 asciilifeform: now you store bit as ~phase~ of the square wave, rather than absolute steady state of the flipflop.
mircea_popescu: women as in usg."women" and capitalism as in usg."capitalism" and "law" and so on forever.
asciilifeform: i.e. guaranteed 0-remanence.
asciilifeform: ( and naturally 0 swapolade or any other 'transparent' copying of anything at all behind the operator's back, in the whole machine, goes without saying. )
asciilifeform: ( the long-time reader will observe that this contravenes http://www.loper-os.org/?p=231 . tough cookies, don't do crypto on box with transparent copying. )
asciilifeform: sanity will involve a much greater degree of kitchen-toilet-separation than seen today.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754358 << entirely not what's contemplated here ; asciilifeform spurious overloading of the concept unwelcome. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:35 trinque: hm, dunno whether I want to execute someone's script during a press.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plz expand then ?
mircea_popescu: the way this'd work would be as a list of rules ("no two consecutive spaces" or whatever) which the sources are checked against BEFORE diffing. should the check fail the options are either to propagate the fail ("file x not in format" error) or else to autofix (which'd work via sed).
mircea_popescu: exactly what the rules are is an open question, but basically the idea is to separate style from content in code.
asciilifeform: i guarantee that the 'autofix' will break something, somewhere, at some point, in a difficult-to-detect way.
mircea_popescu: which is something that was blunderingly and un-intelligently a red thread throughout coding ever since linux opened its eyes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform option is there. either fail or fix.
asciilifeform: (e.g. python, fortran, elsewhere, have significant-whitespaces)
mircea_popescu: for testing etc, fix i expect will be used. for publishing, i expect not.
asciilifeform: not all failures are immediate/detectable before it costs a battleship.
mircea_popescu: also -- if v breaks fortran then FORTRAN fixes itself.
asciilifeform: and you will annihilate, e.g., ascii-art schematics, if you dictate e.g. 'no 2 spaces'
mircea_popescu: the "backward compatibility" argument is no argument but a red herring. i will not break shit to match microsoft's sad history.
asciilifeform: adding arbitrary talmudiana is what microshit is made of.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you will.
asciilifeform: i'm almost surprised that mircea_popescu hasn't yet thought of , e.g., anathemizing ascii in favour of own, arbitrary arrangement of alphabet, strictly for incompatibility's sake; or to proclaim the 17-bit byte...
mircea_popescu: code is not natural language. code is a highly structured, deliberately limited-expressive form of language. what is said re http://trilema.com/2010/hai-sa-studiem-gramatica-impreuna/#selection-99.0-99.995 goes triple for code
phf: asciilifeform: chuck moore did that though..
asciilifeform: phf: afaik moore still uses ascii
phf: nope.
asciilifeform: neato.
asciilifeform: what's he using, 5bit baudot?
mircea_popescu: wait i thought you didn't like it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i like breaking things when something is gained thereby.
mircea_popescu: something IS gained thereby.
asciilifeform: vs plain paint-the-grass-green.
asciilifeform: what specifically ?
mircea_popescu: i am NOT looking at difflists saying "and then special snowflake added a space and took out a tab"
mircea_popescu: exactly re <asciilifeform> ( who recalls the mircea_popescu tabs-spaces thread... )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu will probably enjoy 'p' syntax. char codes 0-32 and 128-255 do nuffin at all.
mircea_popescu: "no other char than tab up until the first alphanum in each line" is a fine rule ; and if someone discovers that he can't press his homebrew let someone fix his homebrew.
asciilifeform: (i.e. whitespace entirely insignificant.)
mircea_popescu: no!
mircea_popescu: that's the thing : the moment you have unconnected expression, which is to say \t = " " you suddenly have the problem of style.
asciilifeform: you solve the problem by beating people with a stick, who emit the shit style.
asciilifeform: not with machine.
mircea_popescu: just as soon as something "is ignored by the compiler", that something now has to be treated somewhere else.
mircea_popescu: because you CAN NOT have such a thing as untreated item in code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform machine is to take over stick from my hands in all domains.
asciilifeform: it isn't untreated, it gets skipped. ( 'p' prototype in 'strict' mode will also stop and eggog if encounters a non-7bitclean char. which one can connect to a stick, to beat author of input )
phf: asciilifeform: i've had a more detailed quote on the dead machine, but the less detailed equivalent is “I use my own 0-Z character set. It is a six bit character set. It only has upper case and there is no distinction between the letter "O" and zero.”
asciilifeform: aa so teletype.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the important, v-powered realisation here : there can NOT BE such a thing as bit-ambiguity in a source. if "this bit being either set or null has no effect" you have a problem, which must be addressed. because it sure as fuck isn't acceptabru to read diffs of style in a patch. patches are for substantive change.
asciilifeform: a whitespace-agnostic diff would be a not-useless thing. problem is that hashes are not whitespace-agnostic, nor could ever safely be.
phf: " I use space as a terminator and words execute immediately, there is no CR to mark the end of the line. There are no CRs, just space delimiters. I currently have BS and Delete. I would like to keep only two special keys, BS and a key to exit. I think I would prefer BS over Delete."
trinque: heads towards ast-diff, and people have their presentation layer do whatever with the ast while coding.
mircea_popescu: trinque i fear so.
asciilifeform: we actually had the ast-diff thread, re phf's lisp diff lament. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's unfortunate that hashes can't hash meaning, but then again we're stuck with babbage looking over one shoulder and turing over the other.
trinque: the whitespace thing though is a fine cut of it, since the next step incurs orders of magnitude more complexity (parser per lang)
mircea_popescu: trinque exactly my tho9ughts. "i don't want to go there. yet."
asciilifeform: the closest we can prolly ask for to 'hash meaning' is sexpr/ast.
asciilifeform: that's what linear array text is a cheap, impoverished hack approximation to.
asciilifeform: ultimately everyone is really eating the ast.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is that no, not really. everyone is eating the "cvasi-hulang description of a meta-ast then watching in trepidation what ast comes of it". as per that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753058 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 02:05 mircea_popescu recalls somewhat fondly old days of "put the model in and wait a few hours for to find out how you fucked it up this time"
mircea_popescu: but what we're diffingh and patching are properly speaking our own notes, not the asts.
asciilifeform: right. but the 'source' in yer head is, really , an ast, whether you end up hitting space 1ce or 3ce when you end up entering the text. and likewise when i read it, it gets reparsed into ast.
phf: the ast direction moves away from patches as literature (which is i think what mp is saying from a different direction?)
asciilifeform: phf: literature is entirely representable as explicit ast
mircea_popescu: it is an open and complicated q of whether what's in your head is an ast.
mircea_popescu: phf patches are in fact literature, yes.
mircea_popescu: and "asciiart" is imo the wrong direction to take at the "asciiart or literate code" fork in the road.
asciilifeform: whether it 'is' in fact ast, or merely representably as one with 0 loss, is the open q afaik
mircea_popescu: and the whole arguments with alphabets and alf's perennial "but i r creative speshul snowflake, must has hyeroglyphs"
asciilifeform: there ain't actually any orc glyphs in my patches tho
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if people thought in asts it'd be computers programming them.
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting to hear how mircea_popescu would represent e.g. the fg schematic, in ideal vtron.
mircea_popescu: svg ?
asciilifeform: ugh
asciilifeform: that's not humanreadable.
mircea_popescu: "svg". the thing that svg should have been.
asciilifeform: may as well represent as hexdump of jpeg.
mircea_popescu: not at all.
asciilifeform: much as i like sexpr, a sexpr dump of a vector drawing is not humanreadable either. at least not with my puny brain, i have nfi, perhaps mircea_popescu can render these in his head as he reads'em ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a specious argument ; "o noes, little em impulses on a platter are nor readable with my puny fingers"
asciilifeform: if i can't read it with eyes -- it may as well be a uuencode, neh
mircea_popescu: you use machinery to turn data to comfortable representation ; the "human readable" is not about "being able to stuff my dick in power socket".
asciilifeform: how is that speciousargument
mircea_popescu: it's about having http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753454 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 16:33 mircea_popescu: trinque can you run <g id="graph0" class="graph" transform="scale(1 1) rotate(0) translate(4 15840.7)"> on a dataset composed of log link references / nick references ?
mircea_popescu: where i can change the DISCRETE data bits independently ; as well as their adnotation.
asciilifeform: this thread is incidentally pretty great , it is exactly the one from 2016 but with the sides switched. ( earlier it was mircea_popescu who insisted -- in the orig 'clearsigning' thread -- on human-eye-readables )
mircea_popescu: for signed matter ; as an exception.
phf: i supper proper presentation of fg schematics in a v-tron is either in the style of the marine chronometer book i have next to me or not at all. "taking first the essentials, c is the escape wheel. the escapement consists of the bar E, carrying the two projections e, e' etc". everything else ought to be handled separately ☟︎
mircea_popescu: nobody will EVER find themselves in the situation of BOTH a) hurr durr, i am at leisure now let me make a patch and b) o noes, i am in distress now, can not run basic machinery.
mircea_popescu: whereas when it comes to clearsigned matter, you CAN find yourself in a b and a is not applicable.
asciilifeform: unlike http://www.stalingrad-battle.ru/images/stories/ris42.jpg fella , asciilifeform cannot actually read 7bit ascii without a machine tool either ☟︎
asciilifeform: so i have no argument against 'must use mechanical renderer to read/modify, and we'll use this-here interchange format'
asciilifeform: so long as the format is actually well-defined, and doesn't require whole world to be bent around it at infinite cost
mircea_popescu: certainly.
mircea_popescu: phf what is the problem with svg ?
mircea_popescu: would you say graph as extant on wot.deedbot is not patch-ready ?
mircea_popescu: guy could actually publish the item as a succession of patches, and speaking of this : hey trinque, could you be enticed to actually genesis that item, and patch it weekly ?
trinque: could sure; I'd have to inspect the svg and see if it's readable. it's coming out of graphviz.
asciilifeform: why wouldn't you vtronify the most parsimonious representation of an item that you have, though
mircea_popescu: either one special key or one new key each week, as you feel like.
asciilifeform: in this case, the input and the generator for the plot
mircea_popescu: but the idea is, getting an automated patch process going may throw a different light on this whole thing and turn out most informative.
trinque: certainly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to see what happens.
mircea_popescu: this isn't for going to war with ; this is for checking out the tool(s) with.
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, how big is the expanded item ?
mircea_popescu: 1e4 kb sorta thing
mircea_popescu: im sorry. 1e4 B sorta thing.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think the differ and rendered for the ~diffs~ is significantly different from what our current foundation is. so in principle i don't see an issue with svg, as long as you can get the ~diff~ out of the vpatch itself, rather than say, pressing original, pressing new and then eyeballing the differences.
asciilifeform: curl http://wot.deedbot.org | wc -m
asciilifeform: 558033
asciilifeform: half a MB
mircea_popescu: o wow, check that out, almost 1e6 yea
mircea_popescu: phf either i'm not understanding what a .vpatch is or wut ?
mircea_popescu: how do you go from state to state other than through a diff/patch ?
phf: you don't necessarily need to go from state to state, you can understand the nature of change by reading the vpatch
asciilifeform: ( in re svgism, did everyone present at some point read henderson's orig. graphics article ? from 1980 iirc )
mircea_popescu: but the entirety of what vpatch is, is "here's what changed from node x to node y"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty sure, yea.
asciilifeform: ok good.
phf: right
trinque: asciilifeform: link for teh poor youfs?
asciilifeform: trinque: http://www.frank-buss.de/lisp/functional.html is modern rewrite , the original (linked) is an ancient pdf.
trinque: ty
asciilifeform: and ahahah dead link,
mircea_popescu: phf was your idea that "well maybe you just don't have a very clear picture of what x was in the first place, gotta press to it" ? ie, accumulating mental errors over the patch flow to GET TO x ?
asciilifeform: https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/257577/1/funcgeo2.pdf << the orig, i think
phf: also has nice treatment in e.g. sicp
asciilifeform: and elsewhere.
asciilifeform: and in old thread mircea_popescu observed that it is almost same idea as in earlier 'postscript' .
mircea_popescu: there was some discussion as to the history of typographical ideas in the log somewhere
asciilifeform: there was. subj goes back many decades.
mircea_popescu was doing typography at some point, did some reading on the scholarlity of it.
asciilifeform: ( re phototypesetter etc )
asciilifeform: 'analogue gpu'
asciilifeform: 'set this-here bit to change the lens to such-...'
mircea_popescu: aha.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not sure that was my idea :) restating what i'm trying to say is that i can derive meaning out of vpatch by reading it, but i'm not sure i can likewise derive meaning out of a svg diff by simply reading it. i suppose the assumption here is that svg was produced and edited by computer means, where imposing meaning on the sequence of modifications is not the primary (and often tricky) concern
mircea_popescu: the assumption here is on the meaning of "meaning"
mircea_popescu: yes you can derive meaning, and of the exact same kind in both cases. but you flatter yourself with that kind being "true meaning" in the first case because you can, and you can't in the second so you don't.
asciilifeform: imho this goes right back to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754465 ; thread is really about what is the minimal expected tooling ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:14 asciilifeform: unlike http://www.stalingrad-battle.ru/images/stories/ris42.jpg fella , asciilifeform cannot actually read 7bit ascii without a machine tool either
mircea_popescu: people read the same bit of code 500 times and still miss the EVIDENT bounds error.
mircea_popescu: just like you can read the svg and miss the EVIDENT implication.
phf: break out that rule paper and work out the graphics like a man
mircea_popescu: you DO that with code yes ?
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform can read hexdump of x86 , mostly without hiccuping, and mircea_popescu prolly can read pdp11 oct dump, but yet for some reason folx pass around sources...
mircea_popescu: "no i don't need to" "why do you think this ?" "stop bothering me, troll."
asciilifeform: ( remember when having an asmer/disasmer on a micro was uncommon ?? )
asciilifeform: 'why do you need this, just peek, poke'
asciilifeform: http://sasq.comyr.com/Stuff/Elektronika/6502_Opcodes_Table.png << oblig.
phf: well, that goes back to the meaning question. with code i don't get ascii codes as ints and then have to paper out the actual text before i can work out meaning. in fact what i do put on paper is almost never related to the written code itself. in the case of mechanical graphics though, my first step is ascii-to-characters
mircea_popescu: this is no small matter. consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754339 ; or for that matter http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-11#1749509 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:24 diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
a111: Logged on 2017-12-11 20:01 diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw I read it as in went through it line by line and with pencil and paper; ran it too at the end, played a bit around with tests and that; and since we are at this, nitpick: in FZ_Swap why T:=X if already initialised at declaration or what am I missing of Ada in there?
mircea_popescu: woman just announced she found an allocated and unused mpi in mpi.
asciilifeform: it ain't in mpi
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's cut of mpi did not include primegen or rsa.c
mircea_popescu: it is a very naive notion this, "i don't need to, i understand". you, odds aren, don't, and this isn't something to be ashamed of.
asciilifeform: (nitpick)
mircea_popescu: merely to be guarded against.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this goes all the way to the fact that we dun actually ~understand~ rsa ( in that there is no proof that you ~must~ factor to break ; or what the complexityclass of factoring is )
asciilifeform: troo capital-letter Understanding is a rare bird.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: hence, nothing to be ashamed of. but ALSO can't just pretend it ain't there lalala.
mircea_popescu: phf so i take it you much preferred classical to analytical geometry in school ?
asciilifeform: soldier isn't asked to pretend that enemy mg nest 'dun exist'. but he isn't given the option of not advancing 'because futile anyway'.
phf: i think you're trying to cut with a broad sword, where scalpel is required
mircea_popescu will confess his interest in geometry during school was ~nil up until functional analysis finally morphed it in, at which point WOW! geometry is cool!!
mircea_popescu: or maybe we've lost track of what we're arguing here. what's the argument ?
asciilifeform: 'what kind of constraint difftrons may impose' ?
mircea_popescu: i thought it was merely whether they can impose constraint at all.
phf: your argument is that careful work aids in understanding, my argument is that when a computer spits out 30mb svg, it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg
asciilifeform: the current one definitely constraints ( 7bit ascii; no ---/+++ ; possibly others )
asciilifeform: pointedly, no moves/copies (without considerable cost) , which spawned the thread
mircea_popescu: phf i thought i said explicitly the proposed patching of svg is merely TO TEST the patching system from a diff perspectrive.
phf: mircea_popescu: no no, unrelated to the current actual svg experiment
mircea_popescu: ye, here we have regular (this is important) and high volume (also important) hose. and people do irregular (not just as time) and low volume, so this is categorically differentiable from all other patches.
mircea_popescu: ah.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "no ---/+++" went away in discussion last round, when phf's notational view prevailed
asciilifeform: right
mircea_popescu: phf then related to what ?
asciilifeform: i was referring to classical unixdiff
mircea_popescu: yeah, we're three people talking three disjunct things here. let's come to common ground.
asciilifeform: ( which is still in use on my boxen, for lack of a ready replacement )
asciilifeform: i'ma brb, try with 2people
mircea_popescu: as to the narrowed down " it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg" << it may not be. but it may well be. the fundamental problem with "time can be but wasted" is that there are no categorical cuts available. spinoza polished lenses and miller worked for the cosmoccocic company. deciding aforehand what tractor work is worth doing by hand is notoriously and to this day the chief
mircea_popescu: and unresolved problem of management.
mircea_popescu: allll the way down to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-17#1752635 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 05:49 mircea_popescu: let's try and understand this : running a house without a bipedal dishwasher, either in personam or as the role only, to be filled by whichever of the available persons according to some (arbitrary, male-oppressive-phalocentric, etc) criteria results in the situation where you gotta pay 3 cents whenever you use a fork. what has been saved ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's when one of those arguments where poking at it we discover there's no any substantial disagreement. i think we're thinking of same thing but from slightly different direction. i was thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc. to lay out and modify objects. in that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid ☟︎
phf: ental to understanding. if on the other hand the language we make is designed to be authored by hand, and is authored lightly assisted by tooling, then there's opportunity and a kind of cognitive pull for the author to make the changes as meaningful as possible. i'm basically ok with working somewhere on that spectrum, but i was preemptively ranting against the kind of patches that communicate nothing but accidental floating point jitter of the graphic
phf: , or whatever else of that nature
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: a large portion of what's being studied there is just how feasible a "quiet" producer of svg is
mircea_popescu: because obviously fp jitter & c will drive every human up the wall. but then again having the generator not generate it prolly requires work. and so on.
asciilifeform: does svg permit polar coords ?
mircea_popescu: but the general problem, "how polluting machine genreators HAVE to be and how would they not be" is a very important point
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would be useful in thatparticular application fo sho.
asciilifeform: ( if not -- try and change size of the circle in the plot, 'quietly'... )
mircea_popescu: nah, any frame changes would be ~new genesis practically.
asciilifeform: if so, that's pretty brittle.
mircea_popescu: anyway. while neither pressing nor essential, these are important considerations. we see.
mircea_popescu: more importantly : these are things which were never discussed publicly, nor does there exists this system where "ideal pollution of machinery is attemptedly measured to be reduced".
mircea_popescu: if this was ever discussed at all, it was discussed thrity years ago at parc or w/e.
BingoBoingo: In other pressing but not essentials: The fellow at the datacenter meeting confirmed my suspicions, I have seen few Argentinos in Montevideo porque Argentina es un pais pobre.
phf: mircea_popescu: yeah, MIT/symbolics concerned themselves with these things too (the whole "presentation" concept is that of a entity that's equivalent between code, internal presentation and inline rendering)
mircea_popescu: aha. it's inescapable in sufficiently advanced programming ecosystems
mircea_popescu: but note that while we have the web log, mit didn't.
asciilifeform: parc in particular dug into the ast thing
asciilifeform: but afaik never got farther than the structure-editor
mircea_popescu: and "here's what i remember of what phf and alf said 15 to 45 years ago" is not nearly the same thing
asciilifeform: nobody had anything like thel0gz, or v.
mircea_popescu: (there's a major but poorly understood and never discussed advantage of the log, in that it empowers my very "eccentric" except fundamental "i don't remember any names" [ http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704118 and http://trilema.com/2017/of-ducks-and-lameness/#footnote_0_76425 both references] : by being released from the need to preserve history myself, i can radically cut items which empowers heuristics not otherwise acc ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 21:32 mircea_popescu: in any case ; i am notorious for a very poor memory, including complete inability to remember say actresses names.
mircea_popescu: essible to the man captive in "either you remember it AS IT WAS or IT IS LOST FOREVER!!")
mircea_popescu: so this, i would count, as the foremost and most notable application of tractor to IA. logs.
mircea_popescu: and why i didn't come to the same conclusion as alf, "more memory is better". not for me, i have enough for what i use it for.
asciilifeform: meat memory is cache.
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: if all yer workingsets fit in yer cache -- thank molloch, sure , no cause for complaint.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: blessings are often discovered by accident.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the recently linked kay interview struck me as exactly this : "check out the retarded monkey, discussing 1960s ex memoria. no wonder he sounds like an idiot"
mircea_popescu: because yes, alan kay sounded like a fucking idiot.
asciilifeform: d00d did 100% of his useful output in 1960s-70s.
mircea_popescu: and on napkin paper.
asciilifeform: nah
asciilifeform: but , importantly , nuffin since
mircea_popescu: no but look. how the fuck can anyone at mit even stand, or for that matter sleep at night. WHERE IS THE LOG
asciilifeform: who was it, napoleon, 'if only there were a bullet here for me, i will be remembered as a great hero'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cannonball, in moscow.
asciilifeform: aaah!!
asciilifeform: yes
mircea_popescu: guy was grandomanious enough, bullet insufficient.
asciilifeform sings, '...Die Musketenkugel macht ein kleines rundes Loch Die Kanonenkugel macht ein viel grösseres noch...'
mircea_popescu: "and if everyone had a fucking log where the fuck would mit ever find space to pretend it matters"
asciilifeform: otoh kpss had a log. didn't help
mircea_popescu: who ?!
asciilifeform: ( not so many yrs ago, their olgl0gz were finally printed , e.g. hruschev's sessions , a little bit interesting to archaeologists )
mircea_popescu: oh oh. i was thinking the statistics test
asciilifeform: lolno, the other kpss.
asciilifeform: ck-kpss.
mircea_popescu: it's a good open question this, "go research and answer why ck-kpss log did not work for them"
mircea_popescu: possibly DID work, for that matter -- surely lasted longer than first socialism.
asciilifeform: possibly because плохому танцору яйца мешают (tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: but pre-mechanization log is of quite limited use compared to current item.
mircea_popescu: or as in romanian, "spune-i lu' ma-ta sa nu se mai futa beata"
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: ( 90+% of utility of log is... search )
mircea_popescu: 60% or so. a good quarter is the reference-read.
mircea_popescu: first system ever seen where the dead live amoing the living as a quite plainly factual matter.
asciilifeform: the 'ancients' , notably, were obsessed with 'can haz search'. recall vannevar bush's elaborate 'steampunk' schemes for optical/analogue search in text
asciilifeform: 1940s
mircea_popescu: yup
asciilifeform: search was a holy grail. and plenty of folx were quite convinced that -- once 'can haz' search -- valhalla of intellectual 'ia' might
asciilifeform: but яйца мешают , turned out
mircea_popescu: sure. but i tell you, speaking dead is another major.
asciilifeform: all writing is for speaking dead. ( even before properly buried; arguably the asciilifeform of 3yr ago is every bit as dead as his ancestors)
mircea_popescu: yes, but without the line-reader they stay dead.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: without reader, the gods themselves -- dead.
mircea_popescu: goes right into discussion of memory above. memory of a different kind, more resistence-of-the-medium-y.
asciilifeform: resistance of medium cuts both ways. iirc punctuation in 1200s (?) was slow to catch on, 'wastes parchment'
asciilifeform: ditto spacing
asciilifeform: 'why wouldja do that, letters could go there'
mircea_popescu: = was invented what, 17th century ?
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: (descartes ? )
mircea_popescu: and possibly absence of 0 (and it's later humiliation as O) comes from similar thought
mircea_popescu: "why waste a spot for inexistent, 4 could go there"
asciilifeform: 0 , near as i can tell, was a genuine blind-spot
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-01-04#436318 << "instead of wasting space for a nop, this improved cpu has two mults" ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-01-04 00:00 asciilifeform: re: 400: 'for your convenience, we have packaged the defective ones separately.'
mircea_popescu: "it's important to avoid negativity"
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: !!up sonic3
deedbot: sonic3 voiced for 30 minutes.
sonic3: hi
mircea_popescu: ello
sonic3: thanks for the +v
sonic3: i remember talking to you earlier this year
sonic3: about running a full node
mircea_popescu: !#s sonic3
a111: 2 results for "sonic3", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=sonic3
sonic3: something i saw on trilema
mircea_popescu: different name ?
sonic3: wasn't using this nickname
sonic3: anyhow, that's not the point
sonic3: i remember you said i should use a specific version of the node daemon
sonic3: one that you were maintaining?
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org
mircea_popescu: i'm not maintaining it, the bitcoin foundation is, but anyway, sure.
sonic3: think you can lend a hand to the build process if i get stuck?
mircea_popescu: possibly ; or if not someone else might.
asciilifeform: sonic3: there are at least 4 people here that will readily help. but you really oughta register with deedbot
sonic3: that'd be greatly appreciated
sonic3: i will immediately after i start the node tonight
sonic3: thank you asciilifeform and mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: sonic3: care to say a little re who you are ?
sonic3: i'm pretty secretive
asciilifeform: it is good form to introduce yourself, as people usually do
mircea_popescu: * sonic3 (5668bf07@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #trilema <
asciilifeform: romanistan ?
sonic3: but when my ip will be ... yea
sonic3: bucharest, romania
mircea_popescu: aanyway.
sonic3: yea, don't let me keep you, i feel like i've jumped into a bigger picture here
sonic3: !#s andreicon
a111: 63 results for "andreicon", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=andreicon
sonic3: c'ya in 30 mins
asciilifeform: !!key andreicon
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/0791933111718EE32B7530422EAF8C142CB4FF7E.asc
asciilifeform: hm alreayd registered... lost the key??
sonic3: yesss
mircea_popescu: i think his idea of "pretty secretive" was rather in the vein of http://trilema.com/2012/bitcoin-is-creating-a-whole-new-set-of-problems/ ; ie would like to start over under a nerw identity.
mircea_popescu: which... sure, whatever.
sonic3: lost the hardware
mircea_popescu: one's years are that one's to lose.
asciilifeform: hey if d00d lost key -- he's stuck staying dead, or being reborn, as he picks.
asciilifeform: sonic3: they haven't invented backups on yer planet, or wat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja know what's 80% of "halp can't log into eulora anymore" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: either that or forgot to plug in mains, lol
mircea_popescu: "i resetted factory defaults"
mircea_popescu: this notion of computing you're familiar with is not used in the tivoputer lands.
asciilifeform: how do they even play, on their keyboardless nintendo
mircea_popescu: laptops (BRAND!!1 ones) come with this magical "make it back".
asciilifeform: this is old hat, it was orig a dell thing , reinstalls winblowz automagically
asciilifeform: from 'seekrit' disk partit
mircea_popescu: i imagine there's people out there regretting their wife doesn't come with a "reset factory defaults" button, and would be VERY shocked to discover i'd very much consider it a disaster, in the line of http://trilema.com/2017/the-day-of-failure-trilemma/#comment-122812
asciilifeform: can be a bitch to erase, too, often it's bios-locked in some underhanded way
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: the comedic bit is that it helpfully reinstalls the branded keyloggers etc.
mircea_popescu: yup
asciilifeform: you wouldn't want chumper to install from cd ( they dun give'im a cd, in any event )
asciilifeform: btw i once encountered an interesting artifact , from scrap dealer. it was a pci card made for orc 'web cafes', that took 2 ide snakes. each expected identical disk. twist : all ~writes~ went to the 'aux' snake. reads, first to aux, then to primary. and there was reset button.
mircea_popescu: see, because cd then needs drm. this hdd partition thing is an improvement there.
mircea_popescu: lol egyptian ide rom
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: ( winblowz, as most-everyone knows, won't boot off an actual read-only device. so these steampunk hacks. )
asciilifeform: when asciilifeform found this piece of flotsam, he tried to requisition moar , from vendor, to use in shitware analysis farms ; no dice, defunkt.
mircea_popescu: aaand in other "ancient trilema slavekeeping lulz", http://trilema.com/2012/in-care-taiem-in-carne-vie/
asciilifeform has nfi what is used in modern orc cafes. maybe, nuffin at all; maybe, slave reinstalls weekly with bare teeth.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was in cafe last week. computer took 5 minutes and >12 warnings/popups to ... not load a page.
mircea_popescu: this was not a boot. the machine was booted and firefox up. just, COULD NOT LOAD A PAGE.
asciilifeform: lol!!
phf: asciilifeform: nintendo, if nothing else, is a single purpose machine, for gaming, designed by the "salariman can have fun with family 13:00-15:00 sunday" japanese. imho preferable to tivo
mircea_popescu: kaspiersky and av-something i forget both had advertisements up on the screen about how they're doing things.
mircea_popescu: phf i rthought that was amiga.
asciilifeform: phf: you remind me of asciilifeform's brother's reaction to being shown a vr headset , yrs ago. he spake thusly : 'it's better than two rusty nails on a rope'
mircea_popescu confesses to unreliable ignorance on the topic.
asciilifeform: naaah amiga was an actual comp
asciilifeform: ( beat the shit out of the 386, bang-for-buck, too )
mircea_popescu: wasn't nintento the original winner of the ipod hunger games, where boys had one in pocket at all times ?
BingoBoingo: They were
mircea_popescu: but then apple targetted women and stole their cake because boys may hunt, but women reliably nest and that's that ?
BingoBoingo: Well, problem was Nintendo mad their first ipods TOO robust, machines never died
asciilifeform: there are plenty of working 8 and 16bit nintendoae, still to this day
asciilifeform saw one recently
mircea_popescu: hey, the 2010 ipad still works great for cutting carrots on
asciilifeform: fanless, diskless, glassless, ~indestructible
asciilifeform: lol
phf: all this and more would've endeared tmsr to nintendo if not for the fact that nobody here plays anything but variations on Global World Domination Campaign Mode (Ultimate Strategy)!
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: phf: i actually considered cryptotron in form of a nintendo (or similar) cartridge.
mircea_popescu: untrue! eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-15#1751876 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-15 14:50 mircea_popescu: in case anyone's curious, the 20 bux was for encouraging the folk who made viking age, which is a quite passible browser game. sorta old warcraft style graphically, othertwise a tower defense married to the old bonbon "city development" azn thing.
phf: there's also a special version for mp, where you can have a general avatar, who's a scantily clad elf babe
asciilifeform: then failed to procure the box, or a usable display for such, and promptly stoppedconsidering
asciilifeform: ( and i dun like how ntsc screens radiate )
phf: russian space program style you should also fit a MOD decoder into the last 27bytes of memory
mircea_popescu: either that or a galois space functional whose results on odd numbers counting from 17 produces a picture of a naked woman sucking cock.
asciilifeform: i'd be only mildly surprised if mircea_popescu revealed that he knew this function
asciilifeform: and can compute using match sticks
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: o shit, the matchsticks
mircea_popescu: is that mindbender solved yet, btw ?!?!?!
asciilifeform: i dun think phf was witness to the match trick
mircea_popescu: ah huh.
asciilifeform: dunlookatme, i didnt solve
mircea_popescu: why not!
asciilifeform: i still even have hanbot's 'proof of actually-having-known-the-number' sheet, pinned to wall
asciilifeform: but -- notsolved.
ben_vulpes: that fuckin thing
asciilifeform: it was a bewilderingly great trick.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-22#634773 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-04-22 13:17 asciilifeform: a matchbox. push it, one side pops out, printed with answer!! 'CORRECT.'
asciilifeform: that'd be other, asciilifeform's, matchbox.
ben_vulpes: still not convinced that no hanky panky was involved
mircea_popescu: not quite the same thing.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes being convinced would be homomorphism of having solved.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: all magic trick is 'hanky panky'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'magic trick' vs 'as yet unbroken cipher'
asciilifeform: but recall, we did establish that it was a matter of matches, and not eye blinks.
asciilifeform: nor foot taps.
ben_vulpes: did we?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform remembers very well, the occasion.
ben_vulpes: how was that established again
asciilifeform: i could even find again this cafe in buenos aires.
asciilifeform: if i were put there.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc : hanbot turned around
asciilifeform: mod6 was there, saw
asciilifeform: and mike_c, sat to my left , also saw ( where the hell is mike_c )
ben_vulpes: rolling out radical piles of features at okcupid
asciilifeform: ugh
ben_vulpes: including (omg!!!1) keyword search
asciilifeform recently demanded ( and was granted ) not to be listed in public document as author of $saecularwarcrime
trinque: meh, folks are gonna make money where it's available, doesn't excuse avoiding the forum.
asciilifeform: unrelatedly mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2012/in-care-taiem-in-carne-vie/#selection-409.32-409.858 is interesting.
ben_vulpes: hey, life and wife and kids and job and commute and and and i can readily see how difficult it'd be
asciilifeform: ( whole thing , interesting )
mircea_popescu: couldja read that ?
asciilifeform: well yes, i did not randomly throw a knife at it, lol
mircea_popescu: i was just trying to be helpful!
asciilifeform: i wouldn't propose to translate it for public consumption, no
mircea_popescu: but the gist being that "communism failed through misapplying force" is not an argument against application of force, it's an argument against giving anything, force, the time of day, to idiots aka socialists.
asciilifeform: 'Дай дураку топор' (tm)(r)
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754565 <- hmmm, I'm certainly not one for graphics much, but tbh a graphical tool that results then in a lot of noise when diffing outputs sounds like a bad tool to me ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:56 phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's when one of those arguments where poking at it we discover there's no any substantial disagreement. i think we're thinking of same thing but from slightly different direction. i was thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc. to lay out and modify objects. in that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid
diana_coman: because basically I get to "choose" between: model it non-graphically and it's clear or use the "simpler" gui that makes it then 100 times harder to follow the changes; is that it or what am I missing there?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> o shit, the matchsticks << funny enough, was just thinking about this yesterday.
phf: diana_coman: i believe the word spectrum is mentioned literally in the same rant
phf: further down asciilifeform elaborates that even technically "noise" is not necessarily just a property of "bad tool", e.g. changing the radius of a circle in cartesian coordinates
diana_coman: so more like how much mismatch between the two representations (diff vs tool graphical or otherwise) is tolerable given that this mismatch inevitably creates noise?
phf: yes, i think so, though i will further add that's not question of just diff, but rather the mismatch between mechanical actions and serialization format in general (there's a lot of bad examples, like dreamweaver, word, etc. and i can't recall any good examples)
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754140 << 6149 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:09 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754013 << 11753, well that's enough for tonight
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj!!
ben_vulpes: how many lines of code did you kill today!
asciilifeform: ^
phf: i should probably check if it still works..
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD
asciilifeform: ( and not even at full gas )
mircea_popescu: yes, actually, phf's formalization is prolly the natural schelling point here. "there's an impedance mismatch between procedurals and serializations and this needs care and feeding."
mircea_popescu: this is not the ~whole~ problem, but certainly a pole.
mircea_popescu: btw, happy half millionth block day!~
mod6: ^
mod6: hey hey!
danielpbarron: in other lols, i created an asset on that XCP counterparty thing years ago and i'm looking at it now. thing has a market cap over 1k USD and not only that, people have actually been trading it in the last half a year. some guy even has what the site claims is 800 USD worth
BingoBoingo: lololololol
danielpbarron: and i also apparently have ~800 USD worth of an asset called CAKE
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD << other difference between old and new hall. New has better acousting dampening ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Old hall sound like Embraer 145 I took STL to Houston
danielpbarron: hm, this site is hard to read, and i can't imagine this is actually correct, but my CAKE might be worth 3.3 BTC ...
diana_coman: sounds like a very nice cake danielpbarron
mircea_popescu: delicious cake ?
shinohai: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ripple/ <<< All these dorks throwing coin into XRP, which isn't even a proper crypto, just because coinbase is gonna partner with 'em or something.
trinque: a fool and his money soon become a Lord's caek.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other elfs, http://78.media.tumblr.com/01f4d182c709e246425cabc56fd953a4/tumblr_ng5i8ciPJX1rjbi2lo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754820 << why wouldja care how loud in the dc hall ? ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 21:45 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD << other difference between old and new hall. New has better acousting dampening
shinohai: ^ moar delicious looking than caek, elves ....
diana_coman: does anybody know precisely what function mpi_tdiv_q_2exp from "sane mpi" does exactly? as we were talking of understanding of code earlier
asciilifeform: diana_coman: https://gmplib.org/manual/Integer-Division.html has the goodz. they renamed it , tho, mpz_tdiv_q_2exp .
asciilifeform: 9 out of 10 times you can find clue re what an mpiism was, by looking in'ere.
asciilifeform: ( replacing 'mpi' with 'mpz' )
asciilifeform: ( tldr : it's an arithmetical, i.e. sign-extending, right-shifter. )
mircea_popescu: what happens if k=0 ?
asciilifeform: what's k ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what do you say the result should be when the count is 0 ? (k as mircea_popescu says)
mircea_popescu: k, the counter.
diana_coman: and even more to the point: what is the result in mpi sane?
asciilifeform: work it out : limb_cnt will be 0 ; the inner if takes the 'else' branch; MPN_COPY_INCR(w->d, u->d , u->limbs ) is the resulting call
diana_coman: so mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, number, 0)
asciilifeform: MNP_COPY_INCR we find in include/mpi-internal.h , and is a straight memcpy-style copier.
asciilifeform: so the thing will do what a human rightshifter does when given 0
asciilifeform: ( try it with mine, btw )
diana_coman: so what do you say the result is, asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: result is , per my naked eye, that it doesnuffin
asciilifeform: (i.e. what comes out is what was put in).
diana_coman: so if I call it with result, number and 0
diana_coman: at the end result will be what I put in aka number?
diana_coman: because no, it's not; it's what I put in aka result
asciilifeform: waitasec
asciilifeform: check this out :
asciilifeform: #define MPN_COPY_DECR( d, s, n ) \
asciilifeform: do { \
asciilifeform: mpi_size_t _i; \
asciilifeform: for( _i = (n)-1; _i >= 0; _i--) \
asciilifeform: (d)[_i] = (s)[_i]; \
asciilifeform: } while(0)
asciilifeform: but :
asciilifeform: #define MPN_COPY_INCR( d, s, n) \
asciilifeform: do { \
diana_coman: heh, I know
asciilifeform: mpi_size_t _i; \
asciilifeform: for( _i = 0; _i < (n); _i++ ) \
asciilifeform: (d)[_i] = (d)[_i]; \
asciilifeform: } while (0)
asciilifeform: ( apologies for clutter. ) wtf is (d)[_i] = (d)[_i]; ??? ☟︎
asciilifeform: and, moar importantly , wai
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can tell you what it wants to be, lol
diana_coman: it wants to be a straight copy
diana_coman: because dividing n by 2^0 aka 1 means result should be n
asciilifeform: this is prettygreat
asciilifeform: what it is , is a noop
diana_coman: but it doesn't work because i=0; i<n
diana_coman: when n is 0 guess what
asciilifeform: aaaa
diana_coman: so result is in fact incorrect
asciilifeform: nao next q is why does the caller appear to work
mircea_popescu: _i >= 0; vs _i < (n); is the point here.
diana_coman: because it works around this specifically BUT without making it clear
mircea_popescu: symmetry didn't work like teh author imagined it would.
diana_coman: caller (primegn) in this case does a very weird thing - the one that actually GOT me into investigating and therefore finding this
asciilifeform: hm?
diana_coman: namely: it needs to calculate nminus1 / 2 ^ k but it does NOT call mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, nminus1, k)
diana_coman: instead it does first copy(result, nminus1) and then mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, result, k)
diana_coman: because k can be 0 and so it needs to initialize result with nminus1 before the call, just in case...
mircea_popescu: an epic example of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-27#1530346 as there was ever had. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-27 15:03 mircea_popescu: "if i make it what i think it should be it crashes"
mircea_popescu: evolved software.
asciilifeform: oh ffs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that utterance was originally from a former 'patient' of asciilifeform's
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: verbatim. d00d actually said it, sadly
asciilifeform: and lived it.
mircea_popescu: evidently, not alone.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22think+it+should%22+crashes << i fished it out of search. but yes, reason it's in quotes is because it referenced the earlier original.
asciilifeform: phunphakt : this yr's gentoo stage3 all include systemd (disabled, sure, but BINARILY PRESENT motherfuckers)
trinque: aha, the rot is accelerating.
trinque spent yesterday stepping a musl build from gcc 6 -> 5 -> 4
trinque: asciilifeform: is this the systemdtronic udev, or whole shebang?
trinque: if latter what of openrc, headed to the gallows?
asciilifeform: ought to be specific -- it's the mere fact that a binturd of name 'systemd' is present.
asciilifeform: it gets extracted when you untar.
trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile
trinque has eudev in his standard recipe
asciilifeform: only eudev remains usable, aha
asciilifeform: btw trinque is your recipe on www ?
asciilifeform: i've been trying danielpbarron's ( which used , in turn, pieces of mine , which was merely a list of banned turds )
trinque: exercise began when I went to run it, found parts no longer working due to mas futuro.
asciilifeform: aa
trinque: so now polishing and collecting *all* distfiles, will publish that when ready ☟︎
trinque: part of the exercise will be to get a statically linked adatronic gcc, with which to build gnat from inside the musl system.
asciilifeform: very neato
trinque: incidentally cuntoo is a fine name for a reproductive gentoo
asciilifeform: naturally
asciilifeform: !#s cuntoo
a111: 30 results for "cuntoo", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cuntoo
asciilifeform: ^ curious when 1st popped up
asciilifeform: hm only in july ? could've sworn was seen before.
asciilifeform currently marveling re how much ~time~ , as well as space, is wasted in autoconf
asciilifeform: it's srsly 99% of build time. and single-threaded.
danielpbarron: my recipe is broken again. i'm currently testing a script i wrote that manually makes the ebuild digests based on files i have on already running machines
danielpbarron: if this works, it should be a pill against all future shitkgnomery, but will requiring hosting about 2 gigs of files
asciilifeform: that's notbad
danielpbarron: please forgive my typos, not using the most ideal keyboard
asciilifeform: funnily enuff the box i'm making nao, is destined to become (among other things) a cuntoo mirror.
danielpbarron: and yeah let me add my support for the name "cuntoo"
asciilifeform: btw i finally measured current at full throttle: 330W .
trinque: danielpbarron: excellent re: preserving distfiles. I've got a few piles, bet asciilifeform has too
asciilifeform: tbh i do wish we were using a bsd as the base
danielpbarron: not out of question. i have the cds for versions 5.5 through.. 5.9 i think
asciilifeform: but the results ( at least in asciilifeform's torture room ) have been disappointing, currently afaik nobody even knows why bdb ignores locks knob ( perma-hosing trb ) !! under bsd
asciilifeform: !#s netbsd
a111: 223 results for "netbsd", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=netbsd
trinque will keep a few unixes around, needn't marry only one
danielpbarron: oh, i assumed openbsd
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-06#1694342 << thread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-06 03:43 asciilifeform: my suspicion is that the bdb locks patch somehow has no effect when bdb built on netbsd
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: do you have a depoetteringization recipe for openbsd ?
trinque: ideally what we end up with is a ports tree that builds on more than one (sane!) system
trinque: and then, can have one or more sane systems.
asciilifeform: trinque: a separate q : can haz fully depythonized port system ?
trinque: asciilifeform: openbsd is a tree of makefiles
trinque: what made you balk previously was the lack of system-global fatwah against useflag, package, etc
asciilifeform: aaaa yes
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, no. i haven't used obsd for years. and by used i mean tried to install again
asciilifeform: trinque: no banhammers -- it's a useless item
asciilifeform: trinque: although, the end of the line in my eyes is : a fully deautoconfized set of packages.
asciilifeform: but i dun expect to live to see this.
trinque: aha, were I making my own ebuild/makefile/whatever for emacs, it simply *wouldn't have* dbus support and fuck you.
trinque: no need for a useflag there
asciilifeform: right
asciilifeform: all useflags do is throw items into ./configure --blahblah...
trinque: in this, I have (and it's trivial to) maintain own package makefiles which depend on other openbsd ports.