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shinohai: But I always like my apple kyklos cake a bit crumbly
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 05:40 asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (CRACKPOTTERY) Notes re: one possible "TRB-I".
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 23:58 asciilifeform: ( it is specifically a pill against 'can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others' aspect )
phf: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway)
☟︎ phf: right, realized too late :p
phf: there's a couple of places where regex is used. exclude filters files by name, (so --exclude=.*c will skip those files by regex), exclude lines filters lines (obviously is not compatible with v), and there's also a function grabber, it's a little piece of code that ensures that, say, c function headers or certain pattern matching lines are in the hunk context
a111: Logged on 2016-06-20 04:23 phf: which is handy if you're using something else to produce the patch, or if you need to use a non-trivial diff command. for example i sometimes need to exclude files from diffing, so a command might look like diff -x foo -x bar -x qux -ruN a b | grep -v '^Binary files ' | vdiff > foo.vpatch
phf: but i don't go into the details there either
phf: hey, less work for me™
phf has been listening to The Dubliners, has a skewed perspective on work at the moment
phf: apropos out yesterday's mini thread about whisky. the only good kind of whisky comes in the jar
phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
☟︎☟︎ phf: it's not even the entirety of autoconf, just things that are left un-included after fixing all the "missing file" errors from diff.c
phf: well, autoconf is not just scripts. it's also compatibility shims, which is a bit tricky in case of a differ, since, unlike mpi, it has a lot of file system interaction code, that might or might not be portable. anyway, we'll see
phf: obviously i'm not actually building it with autoconf
phf: Pass the output through `pr' to paginate it.
phf: not to mention a fucking palette parser
phf: trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ?
☟︎ phf: there's a concrete answer to that question!
phf: well, if you baked in color support, your code periodically enables a color mode, but doesn't immediately disable it. instead colors spit out as the execution unfolds. but if you catch an interrupt, you end up with a borked terminal. hence fucking complicated ass signal machinery to ensure that color gets restored on hup or suspend
trinque noticing extremely fucky behavior around sending transactions with trb over the last few days at least.
trinque: mats pointed out to me that all trb nodes he can see appeared to be consistently 50 blocks or more behind.
trinque: obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:08 phf: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway)
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:33 asciilifeform: and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a non-mining coin, ie, where all coins are created at t0.
mircea_popescu: yes. but when you encounter two different chains, how do you choose one ?
mircea_popescu: so if at t0 the chain is C, and at t1 large owners decide they don't like C and retroactively create C' ?
mircea_popescu: how can non-usg node correctly identify C' as retcon ?
mircea_popescu: by the time you ask "why would anyone choose the wrong color bits" you've moved from protocol to promise.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 03:37 phf: trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ?
mircea_popescu: the problem with "no time", see ? it's that now... no time!
mircea_popescu: that's the iffy thing about blocks. not so much the "work", but the metronome.
mircea_popescu: this alt-granpa pistol is no replacement for the actual item
mircea_popescu: i don't want a different flavour of footshooting musket.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 04:09 trinque: obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in which vein : nothing wrong in principle with the idea (of all-coins-given-at-t0) but you will have to solve the problem of time.
mircea_popescu: no it's not a solution. it reduces to "bring your own missing parts of this bitcoin"
trinque: I'm simply unable to transmit transactions at times; they show up in no other mempool.
trinque: this along with the transparently obvious sybil logs I posted the other day
trinque: anyhow, investigation continues.
mircea_popescu: trinque the only known pill is keeping large pile of secretly connected nodes, measuring who mothballs you and why, sending assassins over,
mircea_popescu: the sad fact of bitcoin relay network is that it actually forces people who aren't to nevertheless act like idiots.
mircea_popescu: this sad is dissected in logs last someone mentioned this. which might've been me, last year ish
trinque: yep, my reaction has been to invest in node-deployment tooling, more nodes, idiot IP blocking and all that
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this just makes us a larger mp, you understand ? girl going "hail master, i am yours to command" does not resolve the problem.
mircea_popescu: anyway, one approach might be to a) create a scalar worldfunction and b) force reference to the discrete value of it. which is what pow ineptly tries to do.
mircea_popescu: but i suspect as implemented it is blind peculiarization of more general concept that needs unearthing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform coins moved is a phenomenology function. worldfunction must discuss states.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 23:33 asciilifeform: after 5yr of thinking about it daily, asciilifeform still has nfi what even ought to be asked of a pow !!
mircea_popescu: but it'd seem that in point of fact what is needed is a reliable description of all factual existence.
mircea_popescu: maybe "any" is too strong. but if one can take decision based on it, there's the evident problem
mircea_popescu: in all factuality we wouldn't have wot were there not pow.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform up to a point. if they came up with say riemann falsification , you'd care.
mircea_popescu: anyway. "discretized worldfunction", which is ~what pow+blockchain is, has obvious advantages.
mircea_popescu: i don't mean here what rando-idiot thinks those are. i mean the actual article,
mircea_popescu: i clearly remember gushing in the log many years ago, but can't seem to find. anyway : difficulty worked.
mircea_popescu: it scaled remarkably well, much better than expected really ; and much better than expectable. this exceedingly close coupling between model and reality isn't, to my knowledge, seen before in human industry.
mircea_popescu: the fact that blocktimes today are SO DAMNED CLOSE to the range intended 8 years ago in spite of diff going up 1e20 is unmatched.
mircea_popescu: you do not encounter a phenomena where you go from 1 to 1e20 smoothly.
mircea_popescu: name item, man-made or natural, that presents this property.
mircea_popescu: and if you're proposing 2017 vintage intel cpu works anything like a diode you're in for a world of hurt.
mircea_popescu: machinery that behaves as intended over a large range of inputs impresses me. this isn't mandatory for anyone.
mircea_popescu: now, the accomplishment here is that it tied a theoretical model to future development in reality.
mircea_popescu: consider, making a clock that works equally well over 1e20 time units,
mircea_popescu: women ~generally make children, but that's only 3e12 cells or so.
mircea_popescu: still not quite AS remarkable as discussed here, but yes.
mircea_popescu: i suspect quartz hating is because obsoleting the last remnant of pre-socialism tech, the mechanical movement.
mircea_popescu: broadcast nevertheless is the ~only economical way to clock.
ben_vulpes: ohey have we finally arrived at the solution of each laird maintaining their own premined coin?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am very curious in how you figure initial distribution might work
☟︎☟︎ ben_vulpes: although perhaps that is the only thing that will eventually differentiate the trilema fiatists products
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 01:10 mircea_popescu: it'd be literally a measure of social intercourse
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes look into teh whole medieval history. two salient points : a) "honor", especially "why would it be said that the enchroaching of king into chivalry through pretense of fons honorum actually destroyed it" ; b) tenement, especially in the sense of subinfeudation.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:52 asciilifeform: to round out the crackpottery : i've described what is more or less a working variant of ye olde warcrime, the multiverse coin
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 01:37 mircea_popescu is thinking of actually starting a chivalry order.
mircea_popescu: fundamentally, the "quo warranto" inquiry is exactly equivalent to transaction verification.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i can picture that it'd impress folx who experienced 'typical' technology being webolade, ducttape, perl. the way austrian bidet impressed asciilifeform's grandfather. << AHA, in Uruguay no excuse for walking around with stink butt
BingoBoingo: Very well cooled, racetrack cabling to racks very clean, mega fire supression
BingoBoingo: And very importantly, they have space to fill
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 17977.03, vol: 16186.23175455 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 17569.0, vol: 51044.12132472 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 17934.7, vol: 3487.02834816 | Volume-weighted last average: 17680.4248612
BingoBoingo: Details vary, even among this operator's different halls. This operator's older halls use racetrack designed for electrical conduit. The new hall uses coated racetrack designed for networking cables
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 05:56 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am very curious in how you figure initial distribution might work
BingoBoingo: But the fellow I talked to recieved a clear understanding of what I am and am not looking for.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:10 mircea_popescu: 12k is almost human
BingoBoingo: Ah, better get to boxing then. Apparently when summer ends the weather is un poco menos divine.
BingoBoingo: Lol, the fellow went to great lengths to caution me on how cold winter gets here while staying above 0C
BingoBoingo: Do remember if you choose to stay in my hostel to bring clothes you don't mind burning later porque los chinches de cama
☟︎ BingoBoingo will prolly do the ivermectin thing later this week
BingoBoingo: Well, there's accomodations nearby where the staff get paid in dinero instead of accomodations, without rapidly turning beds in rooms that accomodate 8 people.
BingoBoingo figures if the Colombians y Brasileros/Brasileras don't complain too loudly what is his place to do so.
BingoBoingo: Not to mention when apartment time comes it presents a ready opportunity for remediating the issue
deedbot: The20YearIRCloud voiced for 30 minutes.
The20YearIRCloud: Used the BTC to buy the first 18 if memory serves me right, rest has been bank capital and partnerships
The20YearIRCloud: Including the BTC appreciation rate, or including what it was worth at the time?
The20YearIRCloud: Because matching the BTC appreciation/escalation with any investment is just about impossible.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-10 01:32 danielpbarron: i replaced the coin used to by mine at the time i bought them, so that works for me
The20YearIRCloud: From property income? Then yes if you consider the USD. From the outset I explained to everyone that we'd be dealing primarily in USD, accepting BTC from tenants wherever possible. As of today I've had a grand sum of 3 people ask me about truly getting involved in bitcoin
danielpbarron: glad i replaced them but to be perfectly honest i'd have been better off keeping both the bitcoin spent while also buying the re-up. I justify it as a hedge against possible bitcoin price decrease and as a public service for the republic
☟︎ danielpbarron: but if i'm gonna go down that road, shoulda bought 1k BTC for 1 USD. should have lived off ramen noodles for the last 7 years while i put all income into a wallet.dat
danielpbarron: well i spent 2 bitcoin on some FGs, then i bought 2 bitcoin. I should have kept all 4 bitcoin, right?
danielpbarron: it's unlikely i will ever have a fiat income again
danielpbarron: depending on what time frame you look at, it's extremely lucrative
danielpbarron: i've got over 1k USD in sales in just a week, but the last auction finished with no bids
☟︎ danielpbarron: someone expressed interest in a gentoo laptop though, so that's my next eBay project
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Have you thought about selling gentoo servers, specializing in easing the transition to Cuntoo?
BingoBoingo: What kind of hardware are you building those with? As ISP develops would be nice to know what a republican box builder is offering.
danielpbarron: bought a bunch of things that asciilifeform mentioned. hp workstations with operteron cpus, ecc ram. got a bunch of 1 gig ssds etc
BingoBoingo: Ah, have you outlined a box you can build arbitrary quantities off using off the shelf parts?
danielpbarron: i'm working on a laptop now and of course my recipe doesn't work again. I'm gonna try cp -r'ing the distfiles in from a working box for the initial setup
danielpbarron: i don't know about arbitrary quantities, i'm sure asciilifeform would say the price spikes if you try to buy more than 10
BingoBoingo: Well, something you could produce 80 of, that's two racks
danielpbarron: hey if any hardware distributor has that qty of the thing we want, i can probably afford to pay for it in bitcoin and recieve a pallet
BingoBoingo: It's something to look out for. Perhaps you could look into maximum desity apu traying too danielpbarron
phf: recent gpgme doesn't build with gnupg@1.4 out of the box
mircea_popescu: a few months after we standardized it (and without reference, OF COURSE)
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:39 asciilifeform: the differences are not in that some have roaches and others mice, no.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:42 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possibly, but it dun make sense for just 1
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:46 BingoBoingo: Do remember if you choose to stay in my hostel to bring clothes you don't mind burning later porque los chinches de cama
phf: perhaps we can get g_l to move there
☟︎ shinohai: Except the pests are actual insects
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 15:21 danielpbarron: glad i replaced them but to be perfectly honest i'd have been better off keeping both the bitcoin spent while also buying the re-up. I justify it as a hedge against possible bitcoin price decrease and as a public service for the republic
mircea_popescu: other than the "hey, i spent like 100k usd for these cufflinks" lulz, there's also "hey, this slavegirl who was doing basic training made like 100 btc freelancing in 2012. so i'm today ~2mn usd richer because owning obedient slut."
mircea_popescu: what am i supposed to say now, "if only i had five more and pushed them harder, i could buy a las vegas casino ?"
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 15:28 danielpbarron: i've got over 1k USD in sales in just a week, but the last auction finished with no bids
mircea_popescu: apparently shit asciilifeform makes sells ok, for just as long as it isn't him selling.
mircea_popescu: best way, as per teh older discussion re your newly discovered interrest in boats.
mircea_popescu: which is my point, your interest in women consists of dreaming succubi.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:23 phf: perhaps we can get g_l to move there
shinohai: Is it just coincidence that asciilifeform pets succubus and diana_coman enters, or ..... ?
phf: hmm, re differ, we're basically nuking all "ignore" functionality, since from hash to hash..
phf: yeah, but killing obviously bad code is so much easier then killing a not bad code that you don't need
phf: that's true, though "ignore" functionality can still work. in fact nuking all that stuff means that i will still need a traditional differ for code manipulation
phf: for example i have a set of patches that i've not had a chance to cleanup, that diff mp's addition on top of the released version of wordpress. that patchset could only by successfully produced by ignoring whitespace changes, and adding a handful of filters for cosmetic alterations
mircea_popescu: phf the correct approach to this is pre-diff filtering masks.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 03:52 mircea_popescu does his usual s%\n\n%\r\r% s%\n% % s%\r\r%\n\n% while muttering underbreath about the idiocy of fucktards who STILL DON'T UNDERTAND NEWLINE STANDS FOR NEW PARAGRAPH!!11
mircea_popescu: yes. but it is a conceptual failure on the part of diff that it presents these.
mircea_popescu: when i diff i want to see what you changed, not what your editor changed.
mircea_popescu: (editor, as in, the human person, not as in the "editor" ie ide)
trinque awakes to see a trb node with wallet excised, synced to 200k
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> Except the pests are actual insects << Aha, persistent bugs, but yes. Can not fault them for following travellers.
trinque: mod6: this will probably end up being a separate branch. my needs with deedbot are diverging from "preserve grandfather's pistol".
BingoBoingo: Yes, but packaging only lists active pesticide ingredients by family here. Not by particular active ingredient and percentage.
trinque: yeah, I'm cracking the thing open for maximum external control.
shinohai: That sucks, ou'll have to grow a fuckton of chrysanthemums and extract our own.
trinque: and if I understand this "trickle" thing correctly, wtf, that's coming out. what privacy? blast my txn to everyone you know.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the original holder threads were never meaningfully revisited. this is a 10yo suture wound with the first silks still attached.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: shinohai: The critters have numerous avenues for developing resistance to contact insecticides, so applying permethrins is typically an arms race. Hence leaning towards the imaclopramid solution.
mircea_popescu: because hey, "core developers" too busy eating my asshole.
BingoBoingo: Well did you bidet antes, despues, o ambos
diana_coman: in "only 2 years later" but since I did not find otherwise in the logs an answer to mod6's question at
http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-20#1139680 : that is simply the number of limbs, so a matter of size; since p and q are same size, it is fine there although arguably not helping the reader
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2015-05-20 00:29 mod6: take a look at this:
http://dpaste.com/0SQPBKC.txt Is there any reason when allocating the space for p & q to do Eulers totient they would initialize the space with 'p' and 'p', instead of 'p' & 'q'?
diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-07-08 14:37 mircea_popescu: fucking "take moar oestrogen" confucius & "wanna hear our inept teenage boyish oneupmanships" zeo-dan derps.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, myeah, I suspect it's sloppiness, "but it's same thing"
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's fine to say no secure memory,sure; it's not fine to pretend it is used but then "use" it like in the example
trinque: can't waste all the security anointing oil on one proggy. gotta save some for the rest of god's children!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: and yes, the original holder threads were never meaningfully revisited. this is a 10yo suture wound with the first silks still attached.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:57 mircea_popescu: phf the correct approach to this is pre-diff filtering masks.
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trinque: hm, dunno whether I want to execute someone's script during a press.
☟︎ trinque: or at least, scripting would have to be severely limited, lest the thing become vthereum
mircea_popescu: secure memory as a concept is actually pretty good, if implemented correctly. implemented as "not swapped" it's not useful, but if it were "untouchable by any other" it'd be useful.
mircea_popescu: ofcoruse such a thing can not exist until we actually make tmsr-computer without dma
mircea_popescu: so in this sense i agree "secure memory" on current iron is not worth bothering with.
mircea_popescu: which yes, kock wouldn't be koch if he didn't live to try and befoul the tools of salvation through association with his turpitudes.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 01:53 asciilifeform: now you store bit as ~phase~ of the square wave, rather than absolute steady state of the flipflop.
mircea_popescu: women as in usg."women" and capitalism as in usg."capitalism" and "law" and so on forever.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:35 trinque: hm, dunno whether I want to execute someone's script during a press.
mircea_popescu: the way this'd work would be as a list of rules ("no two consecutive spaces" or whatever) which the sources are checked against BEFORE diffing. should the check fail the options are either to propagate the fail ("file x not in format" error) or else to autofix (which'd work via sed).
mircea_popescu: exactly what the rules are is an open question, but basically the idea is to separate style from content in code.
mircea_popescu: which is something that was blunderingly and un-intelligently a red thread throughout coding ever since linux opened its eyes.
mircea_popescu: for testing etc, fix i expect will be used. for publishing, i expect not.
mircea_popescu: also -- if v breaks fortran then FORTRAN fixes itself.
mircea_popescu: the "backward compatibility" argument is no argument but a red herring. i will not break shit to match microsoft's sad history.
phf: asciilifeform: chuck moore did that though..
mircea_popescu: i am NOT looking at difflists saying "and then special snowflake added a space and took out a tab"
mircea_popescu: exactly re <asciilifeform> ( who recalls the mircea_popescu tabs-spaces thread... )
mircea_popescu: "no other char than tab up until the first alphanum in each line" is a fine rule ; and if someone discovers that he can't press his homebrew let someone fix his homebrew.
mircea_popescu: that's the thing : the moment you have unconnected expression, which is to say \t = " " you suddenly have the problem of style.
mircea_popescu: just as soon as something "is ignored by the compiler", that something now has to be treated somewhere else.
mircea_popescu: because you CAN NOT have such a thing as untreated item in code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform machine is to take over stick from my hands in all domains.
phf: asciilifeform: i've had a more detailed quote on the dead machine, but the less detailed equivalent is “I use my own 0-Z character set. It is a six bit character set. It only has upper case and there is no distinction between the letter "O" and zero.”
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the important, v-powered realisation here : there can NOT BE such a thing as bit-ambiguity in a source. if "this bit being either set or null has no effect" you have a problem, which must be addressed. because it sure as fuck isn't acceptabru to read diffs of style in a patch. patches are for substantive change.
phf: " I use space as a terminator and words execute immediately, there is no CR to mark the end of the line. There are no CRs, just space delimiters. I currently have BS and Delete. I would like to keep only two special keys, BS and a key to exit. I think I would prefer BS over Delete."
trinque: heads towards ast-diff, and people have their presentation layer do whatever with the ast while coding.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's unfortunate that hashes can't hash meaning, but then again we're stuck with babbage looking over one shoulder and turing over the other.
trinque: the whitespace thing though is a fine cut of it, since the next step incurs orders of magnitude more complexity (parser per lang)
mircea_popescu: trinque exactly my tho9ughts. "i don't want to go there. yet."
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 02:05 mircea_popescu recalls somewhat fondly old days of "put the model in and wait a few hours for to find out how you fucked it up this time"
mircea_popescu: but what we're diffingh and patching are properly speaking our own notes, not the asts.
phf: the ast direction moves away from patches as literature (which is i think what mp is saying from a different direction?)
mircea_popescu: it is an open and complicated q of whether what's in your head is an ast.
mircea_popescu: and "asciiart" is imo the wrong direction to take at the "asciiart or literate code" fork in the road.
mircea_popescu: and the whole arguments with alphabets and alf's perennial "but i r creative speshul snowflake, must has hyeroglyphs"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if people thought in asts it'd be computers programming them.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a specious argument ; "o noes, little em impulses on a platter are nor readable with my puny fingers"
mircea_popescu: you use machinery to turn data to comfortable representation ; the "human readable" is not about "being able to stuff my dick in power socket".
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 16:33 mircea_popescu: trinque can you run <g id="graph0" class="graph" transform="scale(1 1) rotate(0) translate(4 15840.7)"> on a dataset composed of log link references / nick references ?
mircea_popescu: where i can change the DISCRETE data bits independently ; as well as their adnotation.
phf: i supper proper presentation of fg schematics in a v-tron is either in the style of the marine chronometer book i have next to me or not at all. "taking first the essentials, c is the escape wheel. the escapement consists of the bar E, carrying the two projections e, e' etc". everything else ought to be handled separately
☟︎ mircea_popescu: nobody will EVER find themselves in the situation of BOTH a) hurr durr, i am at leisure now let me make a patch and b) o noes, i am in distress now, can not run basic machinery.
mircea_popescu: whereas when it comes to clearsigned matter, you CAN find yourself in a b and a is not applicable.
mircea_popescu: would you say graph as extant on wot.deedbot is not patch-ready ?
mircea_popescu: guy could actually publish the item as a succession of patches, and speaking of this : hey trinque, could you be enticed to actually genesis that item, and patch it weekly ?
trinque: could sure; I'd have to inspect the svg and see if it's readable. it's coming out of graphviz.
mircea_popescu: either one special key or one new key each week, as you feel like.
mircea_popescu: but the idea is, getting an automated patch process going may throw a different light on this whole thing and turn out most informative.
mircea_popescu: this isn't for going to war with ; this is for checking out the tool(s) with.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think the differ and rendered for the ~diffs~ is significantly different from what our current foundation is. so in principle i don't see an issue with svg, as long as you can get the ~diff~ out of the vpatch itself, rather than say, pressing original, pressing new and then eyeballing the differences.
mircea_popescu: phf either i'm not understanding what a .vpatch is or wut ?
mircea_popescu: how do you go from state to state other than through a diff/patch ?
phf: you don't necessarily need to go from state to state, you can understand the nature of change by reading the vpatch
mircea_popescu: but the entirety of what vpatch is, is "here's what changed from node x to node y"
trinque: asciilifeform: link for teh poor youfs?
mircea_popescu: phf was your idea that "well maybe you just don't have a very clear picture of what x was in the first place, gotta press to it" ? ie, accumulating mental errors over the patch flow to GET TO x ?
phf: also has nice treatment in e.g. sicp
mircea_popescu: there was some discussion as to the history of typographical ideas in the log somewhere
mircea_popescu was doing typography at some point, did some reading on the scholarlity of it.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not sure that was my idea :) restating what i'm trying to say is that i can derive meaning out of vpatch by reading it, but i'm not sure i can likewise derive meaning out of a svg diff by simply reading it. i suppose the assumption here is that svg was produced and edited by computer means, where imposing meaning on the sequence of modifications is not the primary (and often tricky) concern
mircea_popescu: yes you can derive meaning, and of the exact same kind in both cases. but you flatter yourself with that kind being "true meaning" in the first case because you can, and you can't in the second so you don't.
mircea_popescu: people read the same bit of code 500 times and still miss the EVIDENT bounds error.
mircea_popescu: just like you can read the svg and miss the EVIDENT implication.
phf: break out that rule paper and work out the graphics like a man
mircea_popescu: "no i don't need to" "why do you think this ?" "stop bothering me, troll."
phf: well, that goes back to the meaning question. with code i don't get ascii codes as ints and then have to paper out the actual text before i can work out meaning. in fact what i do put on paper is almost never related to the written code itself. in the case of mechanical graphics though, my first step is ascii-to-characters
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:24 diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
a111: Logged on 2017-12-11 20:01 diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw I read it as in went through it line by line and with pencil and paper; ran it too at the end, played a bit around with tests and that; and since we are at this, nitpick: in FZ_Swap why T:=X if already initialised at declaration or what am I missing of Ada in there?
mircea_popescu: woman just announced she found an allocated and unused mpi in mpi.
mircea_popescu: it is a very naive notion this, "i don't need to, i understand". you, odds aren, don't, and this isn't something to be ashamed of.
mircea_popescu: hence, nothing to be ashamed of. but ALSO can't just pretend it ain't there lalala.
mircea_popescu: phf so i take it you much preferred classical to analytical geometry in school ?
phf: i think you're trying to cut with a broad sword, where scalpel is required
mircea_popescu will confess his interest in geometry during school was ~nil up until functional analysis finally morphed it in, at which point WOW! geometry is cool!!
mircea_popescu: or maybe we've lost track of what we're arguing here. what's the argument ?
mircea_popescu: i thought it was merely whether they can impose constraint at all.
phf: your argument is that careful work aids in understanding, my argument is that when a computer spits out 30mb svg, it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg
mircea_popescu: phf i thought i said explicitly the proposed patching of svg is merely TO TEST the patching system from a diff perspectrive.
phf: mircea_popescu: no no, unrelated to the current actual svg experiment
mircea_popescu: ye, here we have regular (this is important) and high volume (also important) hose. and people do irregular (not just as time) and low volume, so this is categorically differentiable from all other patches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "no ---/+++" went away in discussion last round, when phf's notational view prevailed
mircea_popescu: yeah, we're three people talking three disjunct things here. let's come to common ground.
mircea_popescu: as to the narrowed down " it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg" << it may not be. but it may well be. the fundamental problem with "time can be but wasted" is that there are no categorical cuts available. spinoza polished lenses and miller worked for the cosmoccocic company. deciding aforehand what tractor work is worth doing by hand is notoriously and to this day the chief
a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 05:49 mircea_popescu: let's try and understand this : running a house without a bipedal dishwasher, either in personam or as the role only, to be filled by whichever of the available persons according to some (arbitrary, male-oppressive-phalocentric, etc) criteria results in the situation where you gotta pay 3 cents whenever you use a fork. what has been saved ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's when one of those arguments where poking at it we discover there's no any substantial disagreement. i think we're thinking of same thing but from slightly different direction. i was thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc. to lay out and modify objects. in that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid
☟︎ phf: ental to understanding. if on the other hand the language we make is designed to be authored by hand, and is authored lightly assisted by tooling, then there's opportunity and a kind of cognitive pull for the author to make the changes as meaningful as possible. i'm basically ok with working somewhere on that spectrum, but i was preemptively ranting against the kind of patches that communicate nothing but accidental floating point jitter of the graphic
phf: , or whatever else of that nature
mircea_popescu: a large portion of what's being studied there is just how feasible a "quiet" producer of svg is
mircea_popescu: because obviously fp jitter & c will drive every human up the wall. but then again having the generator not generate it prolly requires work. and so on.
mircea_popescu: but the general problem, "how polluting machine genreators HAVE to be and how would they not be" is a very important point
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would be useful in thatparticular application fo sho.
mircea_popescu: nah, any frame changes would be ~new genesis practically.
mircea_popescu: anyway. while neither pressing nor essential, these are important considerations. we see.
mircea_popescu: more importantly : these are things which were never discussed publicly, nor does there exists this system where "ideal pollution of machinery is attemptedly measured to be reduced".
mircea_popescu: if this was ever discussed at all, it was discussed thrity years ago at parc or w/e.
BingoBoingo: In other pressing but not essentials: The fellow at the datacenter meeting confirmed my suspicions, I have seen few Argentinos in Montevideo porque Argentina es un pais pobre.
phf: mircea_popescu: yeah, MIT/symbolics concerned themselves with these things too (the whole "presentation" concept is that of a entity that's equivalent between code, internal presentation and inline rendering)
mircea_popescu: aha. it's inescapable in sufficiently advanced programming ecosystems
mircea_popescu: and "here's what i remember of what phf and alf said 15 to 45 years ago" is not nearly the same thing
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 21:32 mircea_popescu: in any case ; i am notorious for a very poor memory, including complete inability to remember say actresses names.
mircea_popescu: essible to the man captive in "either you remember it AS IT WAS or IT IS LOST FOREVER!!")
mircea_popescu: so this, i would count, as the foremost and most notable application of tractor to IA. logs.
mircea_popescu: and why i didn't come to the same conclusion as alf, "more memory is better". not for me, i have enough for what i use it for.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the recently linked kay interview struck me as exactly this : "check out the retarded monkey, discussing 1960s ex memoria. no wonder he sounds like an idiot"
mircea_popescu: no but look. how the fuck can anyone at mit even stand, or for that matter sleep at night. WHERE IS THE LOG
mircea_popescu: "and if everyone had a fucking log where the fuck would mit ever find space to pretend it matters"
mircea_popescu: it's a good open question this, "go research and answer why ck-kpss log did not work for them"
mircea_popescu: possibly DID work, for that matter -- surely lasted longer than first socialism.
mircea_popescu: or as in romanian, "spune-i lu' ma-ta sa nu se mai futa beata"
mircea_popescu: first system ever seen where the dead live amoing the living as a quite plainly factual matter.
mircea_popescu: goes right into discussion of memory above. memory of a different kind, more resistence-of-the-medium-y.
mircea_popescu: and possibly absence of 0 (and it's later humiliation as O) comes from similar thought
a111: Logged on 2014-01-04 00:00 asciilifeform: re: 400: 'for your convenience, we have packaged the defective ones separately.'
deedbot: sonic3 voiced for 30 minutes.
sonic3: i remember talking to you earlier this year
sonic3: about running a full node
sonic3: something i saw on trilema
sonic3: wasn't using this nickname
sonic3: anyhow, that's not the point
sonic3: i remember you said i should use a specific version of the node daemon
sonic3: one that you were maintaining?
mircea_popescu: i'm not maintaining it, the bitcoin foundation is, but anyway, sure.
sonic3: think you can lend a hand to the build process if i get stuck?
sonic3: that'd be greatly appreciated
sonic3: i will immediately after i start the node tonight
sonic3: thank you asciilifeform and mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: * sonic3 (5668bf07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.104.191.7) has joined #trilema <
sonic3: but when my ip will be ... yea
sonic3: yea, don't let me keep you, i feel like i've jumped into a bigger picture here
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja know what's 80% of "halp can't log into eulora anymore" ?
mircea_popescu: this notion of computing you're familiar with is not used in the tivoputer lands.
mircea_popescu: laptops (BRAND!!1 ones) come with this magical "make it back".
mircea_popescu: see, because cd then needs drm. this hdd partition thing is an improvement there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was in cafe last week. computer took 5 minutes and >12 warnings/popups to ... not load a page.
mircea_popescu: this was not a boot. the machine was booted and firefox up. just, COULD NOT LOAD A PAGE.
phf: asciilifeform: nintendo, if nothing else, is a single purpose machine, for gaming, designed by the "salariman can have fun with family 13:00-15:00 sunday" japanese. imho preferable to tivo
mircea_popescu: kaspiersky and av-something i forget both had advertisements up on the screen about how they're doing things.
mircea_popescu: wasn't nintento the original winner of the ipod hunger games, where boys had one in pocket at all times ?
mircea_popescu: but then apple targetted women and stole their cake because boys may hunt, but women reliably nest and that's that ?
BingoBoingo: Well, problem was Nintendo mad their first ipods TOO robust, machines never died
mircea_popescu: hey, the 2010 ipad still works great for cutting carrots on
phf: all this and more would've endeared tmsr to nintendo if not for the fact that nobody here plays anything but variations on Global World Domination Campaign Mode (Ultimate Strategy)!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-15 14:50 mircea_popescu: in case anyone's curious, the 20 bux was for encouraging the folk who made viking age, which is a quite passible browser game. sorta old warcraft style graphically, othertwise a tower defense married to the old bonbon "city development" azn thing.
phf: there's also a special version for mp, where you can have a general avatar, who's a scantily clad elf babe
phf: russian space program style you should also fit a MOD decoder into the last 27bytes of memory
mircea_popescu: either that or a galois space functional whose results on odd numbers counting from 17 produces a picture of a naked woman sucking cock.
a111: Logged on 2014-04-22 13:17 asciilifeform: a matchbox. push it, one side pops out, printed with answer!! 'CORRECT.'
ben_vulpes: still not convinced that no hanky panky was involved
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes being convinced would be homomorphism of having solved.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'magic trick' vs 'as yet unbroken cipher'
ben_vulpes: rolling out radical piles of features at okcupid
trinque: meh, folks are gonna make money where it's available, doesn't excuse avoiding the forum.
ben_vulpes: hey, life and wife and kids and job and commute and and and i can readily see how difficult it'd be
mircea_popescu: but the gist being that "communism failed through misapplying force" is not an argument against application of force, it's an argument against giving anything, force, the time of day, to idiots aka socialists.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:56 phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's when one of those arguments where poking at it we discover there's no any substantial disagreement. i think we're thinking of same thing but from slightly different direction. i was thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc. to lay out and modify objects. in that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid
diana_coman: because basically I get to "choose" between: model it non-graphically and it's clear or use the "simpler" gui that makes it then 100 times harder to follow the changes; is that it or what am I missing there?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> o shit, the matchsticks << funny enough, was just thinking about this yesterday.
phf: diana_coman: i believe the word spectrum is mentioned literally in the same rant
phf: further down asciilifeform elaborates that even technically "noise" is not necessarily just a property of "bad tool", e.g. changing the radius of a circle in cartesian coordinates
diana_coman: so more like how much mismatch between the two representations (diff vs tool graphical or otherwise) is tolerable given that this mismatch inevitably creates noise?
phf: yes, i think so, though i will further add that's not question of just diff, but rather the mismatch between mechanical actions and serialization format in general (there's a lot of bad examples, like dreamweaver, word, etc. and i can't recall any good examples)
ben_vulpes: how many lines of code did you kill today!
phf: i should probably check if it still works..
mircea_popescu: yes, actually, phf's formalization is prolly the natural schelling point here. "there's an impedance mismatch between procedurals and serializations and this needs care and feeding."
mircea_popescu: this is not the ~whole~ problem, but certainly a pole.
danielpbarron: in other lols, i created an asset on that XCP counterparty thing years ago and i'm looking at it now. thing has a market cap over 1k USD and not only that, people have actually been trading it in the last half a year. some guy even has what the site claims is 800 USD worth
danielpbarron: and i also apparently have ~800 USD worth of an asset called CAKE
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD << other difference between old and new hall. New has better acousting dampening
☟︎ BingoBoingo: Old hall sound like Embraer 145 I took STL to Houston
danielpbarron: hm, this site is hard to read, and i can't imagine this is actually correct, but my CAKE might be worth 3.3 BTC ...
diana_coman: sounds like a very nice cake danielpbarron
trinque: a fool and his money soon become a Lord's caek.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 21:45 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD << other difference between old and new hall. New has better acousting dampening
shinohai: ^ moar delicious looking than caek, elves ....
diana_coman: does anybody know precisely what function mpi_tdiv_q_2exp from "sane mpi" does exactly? as we were talking of understanding of code earlier
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what do you say the result should be when the count is 0 ? (k as mircea_popescu says)
diana_coman: and even more to the point: what is the result in mpi sane?
diana_coman: so what do you say the result is, asciilifeform ?
diana_coman: at the end result will be what I put in aka number?
diana_coman: because no, it's not; it's what I put in aka result
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can tell you what it wants to be, lol
diana_coman: because dividing n by 2^0 aka 1 means result should be n
diana_coman: because it works around this specifically BUT without making it clear
mircea_popescu: symmetry didn't work like teh author imagined it would.
diana_coman: caller (primegn) in this case does a very weird thing - the one that actually GOT me into investigating and therefore finding this
diana_coman: namely: it needs to calculate nminus1 / 2 ^ k but it does NOT call mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, nminus1, k)
diana_coman: instead it does first copy(result, nminus1) and then mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, result, k)
diana_coman: because k can be 0 and so it needs to initialize result with nminus1 before the call, just in case...
a111: Logged on 2016-08-27 15:03 mircea_popescu: "if i make it what i think it should be it crashes"
trinque: aha, the rot is accelerating.
trinque spent yesterday stepping a musl build from gcc 6 -> 5 -> 4
trinque: asciilifeform: is this the systemdtronic udev, or whole shebang?
trinque: if latter what of openrc, headed to the gallows?
trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile
trinque has eudev in his standard recipe
trinque: exercise began when I went to run it, found parts no longer working due to mas futuro.
trinque: so now polishing and collecting *all* distfiles, will publish that when ready
☟︎ trinque: part of the exercise will be to get a statically linked adatronic gcc, with which to build gnat from inside the musl system.
trinque: incidentally cuntoo is a fine name for a reproductive gentoo
danielpbarron: my recipe is broken again. i'm currently testing a script i wrote that manually makes the ebuild digests based on files i have on already running machines
danielpbarron: if this works, it should be a pill against all future shitkgnomery, but will requiring hosting about 2 gigs of files
danielpbarron: please forgive my typos, not using the most ideal keyboard
danielpbarron: and yeah let me add my support for the name "cuntoo"
trinque: danielpbarron: excellent re: preserving distfiles. I've got a few piles, bet asciilifeform has too
danielpbarron: not out of question. i have the cds for versions 5.5 through.. 5.9 i think
trinque will keep a few unixes around, needn't marry only one
a111: Logged on 2017-08-06 03:43 asciilifeform: my suspicion is that the bdb locks patch somehow has no effect when bdb built on netbsd
trinque: ideally what we end up with is a ports tree that builds on more than one (sane!) system
trinque: and then, can have one or more sane systems.
trinque: asciilifeform: openbsd is a tree of makefiles
trinque: what made you balk previously was the lack of system-global fatwah against useflag, package, etc
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, no. i haven't used obsd for years. and by used i mean tried to install again
trinque: aha, were I making my own ebuild/makefile/whatever for emacs, it simply *wouldn't have* dbus support and fuck you.
trinque: no need for a useflag there
trinque: in this, I have (and it's trivial to) maintain own package makefiles which depend on other openbsd ports.