log
⏐︎ 13737
trinque: I shall do neither.
kakobrekla: ftr, toshi (postgres) currently has 488 gb database for the 30 or so gigs of blockchain
gernika: mircea_popescu Interesting. That's one thing you and Michael O. Church agree on.
ben_vulpes: 'twas a joke, joke only.
trinque: I know I know
mircea_popescu: gernika the difference being that he's poor.
kakobrekla: theres a reason for that.
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: ever run an 'abe'?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla there maybe is or maybe is not.
kakobrekla: ben_vulpes sure, and a bunch of other explorers.
kakobrekla: some, not public.
ben_vulpes: which to avoid, which are not miserable?
mircea_popescu: having someone from here try it is still a great thing.
kakobrekla: they are all miserable.
ben_vulpes: o well then
trinque: I'll say writing deedbot- was highly instructive.
kakobrekla: but yeah stay away from abe
trinque: shinohai: ^^
ben_vulpes: why is abe so bad?
kakobrekla: last i checked, years ago, that was a piece of spaghetti pythons that broke weekly
ben_vulpes: aside from "can't serve while indexing lol"?
shinohai: abe sucks, i'd rather rebuild bitpay insight -css
ben_vulpes kicked off its indexer this morning
ben_vulpes: ah jesus insight is a shitshow that much i know from pissing on the fence in question
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: 'toshi' creates its db from a rails schema iirc, no surprise that it's 10x blockchain size
ben_vulpes: but transaction indexing etc should take *that* much space...
shinohai: then i have no framework
kakobrekla: ben_vulpes others arent that much smaller
shinohai: besies bitcoind output
gernika: mod6 asciilifeform fyi I just successfully built stator bitcoind on top of rotor. Gentoo inside Parallels. Needed trinque's patch.
kakobrekla: blockr was something like 200-300 gigs iirc
ben_vulpes: wow.
mircea_popescu: blocker's in past tense now ? ☟︎
ben_vulpes: whence the extra data? most of the relationships should live in foreign keys.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yeah, there's a reason i keep saying plain html and db on disk and stuff
kakobrekla: sort of.
ben_vulpes off for a bit
mircea_popescu: exactly to piss on the face of all the "developer" kids with "ideas"
kakobrekla: plain html and db on disk and stuff < yes we want another duplicate of useless stuff stored in blockchain files
shinohai: You shouldn't trust developers tis true
mircea_popescu: yes. we do.
mircea_popescu: to replace the useless duplicate of all the shit in a ruby install.
trinque: the vast majority of websites out there should be this
mircea_popescu: if disks are gonna fill with rubbish, i want it to be my meaningless rubbish, not theirs.
shinohai: ruby is just as useless as java
trinque: how often do you publish vs read
mircea_popescu: trinque ill confess about quarterly i get an itch to convert trilema
trinque: people "MVC", then it's memcached this and redis that
trinque: mircea_popescu: I bet, perfect example
mircea_popescu: re that "academic" link earlier : wtf is WRONG with these people. i can not see a date onthe page.
mircea_popescu: what is the point of even fucking existing if one's going to be this dumb ?
mircea_popescu: what, they've not invented dating in their culture ? what is this, polinesia online ?
kakobrekla: i dont see why save all html files beforehand if you can just dumpblock on the fly, its a stupid operations it gets done fast.
mircea_popescu: fucking sumerians had it, it's not even european.
kakobrekla: its not like you are querying for abalance of an address.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you know nothing prevents you from doing even the balance, in plain html.
mircea_popescu: suppose you accept a new block. now you do 1) list it in /blocks/ ; 2) iterate over all the txn it includes, list them in /txn/ ; 3) iterate over all addresses included, add and substract from /addresses/address.html
mircea_popescu: presto.
kakobrekla: well you will end up with 100gigs+ db or so. or unusably slow.
mircea_popescu: you end up with a pile of html files that would conceivably be smaller than the blockchain (no sigs) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: (or larger, of course - html mark-up. but anyway)
kakobrekla: keeping all the balance for all the addresses wont be that small.
mircea_popescu: the balance of any address is a longint.
kakobrekla: number of tx * avg number of in/outputs = ?
mircea_popescu: you can trivially opt to "only list txn over X".
mircea_popescu: update the balance, but not list the txn.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-08-2015#1221499 << what "her" fucking choice ? since when it's her choice, have we EVER even seen a documented case of a female attacker ? ☝︎☟︎
assbot: Logged on 01-08-2015 22:21:53; punkman: " the attacker is not able to forge new valid signatures, but Seifert’s attack allows the attacker to pass — with a certain probability — the signature verification step, for a message of her choice, by corrupting the public modulus"
Apocalyptic: mircea_popescu, maybe because in crypto the attacker is usually called Eve
mircea_popescu: unflattering as that may be
mircea_popescu: eve's like one of maybe five people in the jewish cannon i'd consider hanging with
Apocalyptic: (stems from "eavesdropping")
gernika: mod6 Built v0.5.4-TEST2 with rotor but can't run it on the system I built it on because: "-bash: ./bitcoind: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error." This is on gentoo built from stage3-i486-20150728.tar.bz2
trinque: gernika: anything interesting from dumpelf on the file?
gernika: trinque: Don't think so: ./bitcoind: file format elf64-x86-64
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00050864 = 13.2246 BTC [+]
gernika: Not sure if I accidentally built a 32 bit gentoo or what...
gernika: objdump: ./bitcoind: not a dynamic object
mircea_popescu: it says it's 64
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you see any problem with me thinking https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/ is basically retarded ? ☟︎
gernika: Well shit. Somehow I built 64 bit binaries on a 32 bit install of gentoo.
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-08-2015#1221623 << I made a point of hunting 1990's keys from universities to feed the Phuctor. Many were of short length. I though maybe they'd fall first and prime the beast, but... ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 01-08-2015 23:40:28; mircea_popescu: 163 would imply a 512 bit key except iirc no key under 768 was even allowed ?
mircea_popescu: gernika it's a wonder they built, you had multilib installed for some reason ? ☟︎
gernika: mircea_popescu Yeah I did.
gernika: Looks like
mircea_popescu: grats, i guess ? o.O
gernika: I guess I get to get more practice installing gentoo :)
mircea_popescu: you could just rebuild for your platform. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: very few people still use 32bit, might be interesting test case. ☟︎
gernika: I'll give that a shot
mircea_popescu: i dunno that any of the currently standing nodes are on 32 bit platforms ☟︎
trinque: gernika: there are knobs in buildroot for that
trinque: and also in rotor.sh, every mention of 64 must change
mircea_popescu: "Note: I am well aware that dynamic documents are a huge, gaping, ugly hole in the digital imprimatur scheme. I have not expended a great deal of effort thinking about ways to better secure such documents; I'm sure this issue will be explored in detail"
mircea_popescu: aka "note : my idiocy falls apart at hte most cursory examination, but i am the sort of dumb schmuck that aims to insulate himself from this by waving hands and weaving words, rather than a thninking person"
mircea_popescu: meh.
mircea_popescu: and before anyone wants to tell me the author has five concubines gifted by from cornell west and is widely respected by robed pamplonocrats or w/e : i dun give a shit kthx.
TheNewDeal: if anyone is interested in taking the no side on this https://bitbet.us/bet/1153/btc-to-top-350-before-september/ . leave me a note and perhaps we can strike a deal
assbot: BitBet - BTC to top $350 before September :: 23.71 B (30%) on Yes, 54.46 B (70%) on No | closing in 1 week 1 day| weight: 21`395 (100`000 to 10`000) ... ( http://bit.ly/1IcNWRU )
TheNewDeal: a new deal of sorts
TheNewDeal: I'm thinking of adding perhaps 2 days equivalent timeweight. Say weight it 21000, two days ago weight was 23600. I would accept your amount, and pay out on the timeweight two days prior, 23600. Terms negotiable ☟︎
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40015 @ 0.00051334 = 20.5413 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221782 << my brain pulls its frequent trick; i distinctly recalled there being a point in that thing ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:34:46; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you see any problem with me thinking https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/ is basically retarded ?
asciilifeform: (which was, that www makes things very easy for the censor, much easier at any rate than rounding up 10,000 books to burn) ☟︎
asciilifeform: but it is buried in a pile of fuck-knows-what, yes
asciilifeform: (it got garbage-collected in my memory)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221786 << no it is not 'a wonder' - it will build on a z80!!! cross-compiler, remember ? ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:39:22; mircea_popescu: gernika it's a wonder they built, you had multilib installed for some reason ?
asciilifeform: multilib not relevant! ☟︎
asciilifeform: 'rotor' makes use of nothing other than the libs we include
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221769 << other than the polish chick (joana rutkowska [sp?]) - not known to me ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:18:25; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-08-2015#1221499 << what "her" fucking choice ? since when it's her choice, have we EVER even seen a documented case of a female attacker ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221792 << as easy as setting up for 'arm' build, etc. change the knob. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:40:37; mircea_popescu: very few people still use 32bit, might be interesting test case.
asciilifeform: get x86-32, mips, cray, whatever.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221794 << danielpbarron's pogo, possibly ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:40:51; mircea_popescu: i dunno that any of the currently standing nodes are on 32 bit platforms
asciilifeform: (pogo is an arm32)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221762 << store'em compressed ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:13:47; mircea_popescu: you end up with a pile of html files that would conceivably be smaller than the blockchain (no sigs)
scoopbot_revived: Scottish Bank, Police & Court Harass Bitcoin Trader, Conspire To Steal His Cash http://qntra.net/2015/08/scottish-bank-police-court-harass-bitcoin-trader-conspire-to-steal-his-cash/
asciilifeform: 'The cash was seized, pending an inquiry that was hampered by the individual’s initial refusal to provide any information about its source. Once the investigation was complete and no basis for forfeiting the cash had been established, it was handed back.' << ahahahaha
asciilifeform: 'handed back'
asciilifeform: just by asking nicely, aha
asciilifeform: no mention of legal fees, having to sit broke for months, etc
asciilifeform: and 'hampered by refusal'
asciilifeform: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2955572/italian-police-shutter-dark-web-marketplace.html << l0lz
assbot: Italian police shutter Dark Web marketplace | PCWorld ... ( http://bit.ly/1N16dmg )
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 interestingly, incitatus synced and stayed synced today
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: i'll leave it up, for now.
asciilifeform: dulap appears to have fallen into an nsa silent hole again...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you still getting ^this on your nodes ? ☟︎
decimation: asciilifeform: doesn't it seem more likely that there's something fucktarded about the sync code?
asciilifeform: decimation: no.
asciilifeform: decimation: i 'wiresharked' many hours of this.
asciilifeform: it is precisely as if someone were snipping out just the packets with useful payload, while leaving enough in place to leave the connection open.
asciilifeform: it also ~never~ happens between directly-connected nodes on my lan, for example. ☟︎
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27300 @ 0.00050402 = 13.7597 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-08-2015#1221623 << I made a point of hunting 1990's keys from universities to feed the Phuctor. Many were of short length. I though maybe they'd fall first and prime the beast, but... << bb you're awesome ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 01-08-2015 23:40:28; mircea_popescu: 163 would imply a 512 bit key except iirc no key under 768 was even allowed ?
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> grats, i guess ? o.O << hyuuuuahahaha
ben_vulpes: <TheNewDeal> a new deal of sorts << i will give you points for this even if nobody else will
ben_vulpes: http://developersdevelope.rs/
assbot: Developers Developers ... ( http://bit.ly/1SSaIBo )
scoopbot_revived: Australian Faces 88 Charges Related To Darknet Child Pornography Sites http://qntra.net/2015/08/australian-faces-88-charges-related-to-darknet-child-pornography-sites/
decimation: http://www.techspot.com/article/1039-ten-years-intel-cpu-compared/page7.html < moore's law sample point "
assbot: Then and Now: Almost 10 Years of Intel CPUs Compared > Summing Up: Up to 11 Times the Performance - TechSpot ... ( http://bit.ly/1MCPRlE )
decimation: The 4690K is just 32% faster than the 760 in Excel, 25% faster in 7-Zip and just 17% on average when comparing gaming performance."
decimation: granted, there are measurements that show more improvement, but 4 years and 45-22nm buys you as little as 17% improvement
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: pgp.mit.edu was a gold mine for academic keys they may not have made the transition to sks. I retrieved manually though by schoool.
decimation: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/31/weak-recovery-makes-for-wage-winners-and-losers.html " That's why many economists are scratching their heads after the latest quarterly data Friday showed that overall compensation in the three months ending in June inched up at the slowest pace since 1982. "
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MCRu2Y )
decimation: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Aspen-Colorado/ "Average price per square foot for Aspen CO was $909, an increase of 23% compared to the same period last year." ☟︎
decimation: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/11968-Southampton/ "Average price per square foot for homes in 11968 was $1,010, an increase of 81.7% compared to the same period last year. "
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35100 @ 0.00051961 = 18.2383 BTC [+] {4}
decimation: http://woodbury-house.com/the-contemporary-art-market-trends-january-2015/ "Over the last ten years, the Art market has grown from $22bn in 2003 to $56,1bn in 2013. All in all, what will be probably reminded from 2014, are the astronics turnovers realized by Sotheby’s and Christie’s on Contemporary art auction in 2014."
assbot: Woodbury House Gallery | The Contemporary Art Market Trends - January 2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1MCToAr )
BingoBoingo: This might be interesting workstation board http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182957
assbot: SUPERMICRO MBD-H9SKV-420 Mini ITX Server Motherboard BGA 769 (FT3) AMD G-series SOC DDR3 1600 - Newegg.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1MCTBnt )
decimation: no ecc?
BingoBoingo: Damn, chip supposedly supports it, board doesn't
cazalla: BingoBoingo, why not dual nvdia titans for eulora?!
BingoBoingo: I'll prolly just wait for Eulora emacs edition. There's no source package floating around for cg toolkit so it won't openBSD unless I rip it out.
cazalla: or maybe a VR system like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR-lxPhGunU
assbot: The Future - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1MCUix0 )
BingoBoingo put a bitcent against rousey tonight on a shitbook for the lulz
decimation: http://worldif.economist.com/article/8/what-if-the-panama-canal-gets-a-rival-trench-warfare-in-nicaragua "After all, what wouldn’t China pay to see one of its naval fleets one day emerging from the Central American jungle right under America’s nose?"
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IgLQhG )
trinque: BingoBoingo: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ufc-rousey-correia-20150801-story.html << damn correia's eyes alone make me want to see this fight
assbot: Bethe Correia vows to take fight to Ronda Rousey in UFC title match - LA Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1IgM48i )
trinque: also, that's a pretty reasonable vow
BingoBoingo: trinque: I'm not watching if I hear it is interesting may acquire later. Otherwise, just liked the odds
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45534 @ 0.00050402 = 22.95 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: BingoBoingo: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fe92x/im_ashley_barr_aka_adam_turner_the_first_mtgox/ < might be good for some lulz
assbot: I'm Ashley Barr, A.K.A "Adam Turner", the first Mt.Gox employee, and alleged DPR (:/). AMA : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1MCWSDf )
BingoBoingo: decimation: I've been following it a bit, but I dunno how much to trust the source
BingoBoingo: By source I mean a long dead account on a social media site desperate for interactions
decimation: yeah, I would take with a big cube of salt
BingoBoingo: I just remember when the satosi@gmx.com email address was "revived"
BingoBoingo: !up a3voices
BingoBoingo: Hello a3voices
a3voices: hi
BingoBoingo: What bring you around these parts?
a3voices: nothing specific, just looking for good channels
BingoBoingo: cool
BingoBoingo: If you want to keep voice prolly best to register with assbot
BingoBoingo: !h
assbot: http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38632 @ 0.00050402 = 19.4713 BTC [-]
a3voices: cool well now I have a pgp key for the first time
BingoBoingo: Which version did you use roughly?
cazalla: if ya ever wanted to know what australian welfare recipients were like, this is pretty spot on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s96drQkfpPI
assbot: Damo and Darren 3 - 'Centrelink' - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1IgODXZ )
a3voices: gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.13
BingoBoingo: good a3voices
BingoBoingo: !up pete_dushenski
BingoBoingo: So, since everyone is apparently looking at db behavior in BTC now... A few hours ago I reset my BIOS clock back a full day. Rightly It refused to acknowledge blocks more than two hours into the future. Then I reset clock to be right. Client refused to correct itself all at once. However many block it scooped up in the verifying databases phase seems to be as far as it got before permawedgeing. Killing and restating fixed issue. B
BingoBoingo: ehavior was on 0.7.whyamIdoingthis and I lack any idea for making a better report. Also vodka. This is definitely an edgecase. Killing and restarting Bitcoin until verify database phase of startup ate all blocks on disk seems to have remedied issue.
BingoBoingo: !Up shovel_boss_
BingoBoingo: Thing is at 368044 nao reports fully sync'd
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35300 @ 0.00050377 = 17.7831 BTC [-] {6}
BingoBoingo: Test was not a planned test. Popped hard drive with weirdOS in laptop and it fucked BIOS clock.
BingoBoingo: No idea of impact on TheRealBitcoin if any
BingoBoingo: !up a3voices
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39250 @ 0.0005037 = 19.7702 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27048 @ 0.00052254 = 14.1337 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4181 @ 0.00052255 = 2.1848 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28850 @ 0.00052628 = 15.1832 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17300 @ 0.0005379 = 9.3057 BTC [+] {3}
cazalla: BingoBoingo, did ya bet for or against rousey?
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Against, but just a Bitcent, learning moderation
cazalla: was rousey fav?
BingoBoingo: By more than 10x
gernika: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221791 << Built it. It runs and syncs. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 00:40:26; mircea_popescu: you could just rebuild for your platform.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20097 @ 0.00053394 = 10.7306 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12459 @ 0.00051591 = 6.4277 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9400 @ 0.00053705 = 5.0483 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29500 @ 0.00054019 = 15.9356 BTC [+] {5}
scoopbot_revived: F.MPIF July 2015 trading statement http://explo.yt/post/2015/08/02/F.MPIF-July-2015-trading-statement
fluffypony: lol davout
fluffypony: reddit hates your comments :-P
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.00054054 = 10.3513 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37550 @ 0.00054585 = 20.4967 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00052824 = 7.1312 BTC [-]
chetty: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11777486/Executive-arrested-over-disappearance-of-390-million-in-Bitcoins.html
assbot: Executive arrested over disappearance of $390 million in Bitcoins - Telegraph ... ( http://bit.ly/1fWcG6Y )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10220 @ 0.0005282 = 5.3982 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11144 @ 0.00051459 = 5.7346 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18566 @ 0.00050924 = 9.4545 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: gernika wd.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221808 << ok, but the broad point is still "technology makes it easier". sure. to what ? to whatever. sure. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 01:30:55; asciilifeform: (which was, that www makes things very easy for the censor, much easier at any rate than rounding up 10,000 books to burn)
mircea_popescu: is it easier for censor to censor documents if documents are deliberately created in easy to censor ways ? sure.
mircea_popescu: is it easier for anti-censor to create documents in formats not easy to censor ? sure.
mircea_popescu: etc.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221813 << how is a 32 bit machine going to build for another platform if one doesn't deliberately put the "build for other platforms" code in there! ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 01:32:00; asciilifeform: multilib not relevant!
mircea_popescu: obviously c will compile for anything. but not by itself!
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221837 << on and off. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 01:47:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you still getting ^this on your nodes ?
ben_vulpes: phf: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152826 << nifty!
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IxKwpO )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221842 << exactly. the behaviour itself can not be reproduced over lans. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 02:11:18; asciilifeform: it also ~never~ happens between directly-connected nodes on my lan, for example.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221858 << how the fuck does this work, 1k per sqft omfg. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 04:02:50; decimation: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Aspen-Colorado/ "Average price per square foot for Aspen CO was $909, an increase of 23% compared to the same period last year."
mircea_popescu: euro housing costs ~1-2 keuro per sqmp! that's a fucking degree of magnitude.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00054026 = 22.0426 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/portland-oregon
ben_vulpes: ehuhueeuhe
ben_vulpes: gaze ye and weep
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why anyone would do this.
mircea_popescu: i point and laugh at the locals six digit price delusions for real estate in the dead centre of ba.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00052554 = 10.5371 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24900 @ 0.00054773 = 13.6385 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i just looked at online.net. nowhere does it advertise hosting illegal content. i'm not giving them any money.
kakobrekla: hosting illegal content?
mircea_popescu: to qualify for any payments, a host must prominently advertise hosting illegal content.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00055022 = 5.5847 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: yep.
mircea_popescu: i will not give money to derps who follow usg.
kakobrekla: where does phoenixnap do that pls show
mircea_popescu: you understand how grandfathering works right ?
mircea_popescu: in any case : i will not pay any isp that fails to advertise ignoring "law".
kakobrekla: you are worried about dmca?
kakobrekla: i dont see phoenixnap doing it, so whatevs.
mircea_popescu: i am worried about living in a world which contains isps that follow "law"
mircea_popescu: and yes, it's a difficult principle to apply uniformly, and yes i don't universally managing atm. nevertheless, i'm not taking stuff back to the dumbass world. and yes i think it'd be just grand if everyone follows it wherever possible.
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-05-2015#1125737 < funny. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 08-05-2015 21:46:38; asciilifeform: i guess my red-hot doug lenat k001 w4r3z stays on kako's box, l0l
mircea_popescu: it's purely a pr thing. got to get people used to the idea that they MUST say they despise the usg.
mircea_popescu: to get paid.
mircea_popescu: none of this "people agree, rule of law, bla bla" nonsense any more.
kakobrekla: this is all based on nothing.
mircea_popescu: people happen to agree alright, it's just the other way.
kakobrekla: dont worry, you can say its just too much css.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you're a nihilist. everything's ultimately based on nothing as fatr as you're concerned, if you're willing to take the time and look.
chetty: <mircea_popescu> it's purely a pr thing. got to get people used to the idea that they MUST say they despise the usg.// just the usg? lots of other places seem equally worthy of it
mircea_popescu: nah, generally speaking.
mircea_popescu: gotta get back to the good old 80s "if you follow the law you're unfuckable, an idiot and get lost"
mircea_popescu: it's after all how the soviets ended.
mircea_popescu: lulz of today : if one googles for bulletproof hosting stuff in the last month, the first 5 results are this dumbass trendmicro "report", and the rest references to it. like : "A new report from TrendLabs -- the research arm of security company Trend Micro -- uncovers the existence of what it calls 'Bulletproof Hosting Services' (BPHSs) which provide"
mircea_popescu: fancy that, trendmicro discovered the hole in the donut!
asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> obviously c will compile for anything. but not by itself! << my point was that i put a complete kit in there. that will build x86_64 on whatever you like, x86-32, cray, pdp11.
mircea_popescu: o i c
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fortunately there is wildlife that lives on usg-free net, whose turds one can follow to find the forest. i speak, of course, of crapware artists and sp4mz0rz
mircea_popescu: of course.
mircea_popescu: but forget the discreet bs.
mircea_popescu: mainstream all the things.
asciilifeform: 100% mainstream in ru
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: 100% mainstream anywhere outside of "my mother had me with a retard" land.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, incitatus still synced (along with the other two)
asciilifeform: from a closer look, it appears to have been running into swap earlier
asciilifeform: what is really needed is moar s00p3rn0d3 l1f3styl3!!! nodez
asciilifeform: like dulap
asciilifeform: though, strangely enough, the best-performing (e.g., fewest 'black hole' issues) node in my fleet thus far has been 'zoolag', which is sitting under my desk, on residential fiber
asciilifeform: 50 connections, presently (dulap - 40; incitatus - 32)
mircea_popescu: how long it's been on is the largest factor for that metric.
asciilifeform: not only
asciilifeform: but the 'black hole' effect, also.
asciilifeform: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fi92w/how_important_are_individual_full_nodes_and_how << check out the philippinos
assbot: How important are individual full nodes, and how much does it benefit the network per individual? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1E2oyu2 )
asciilifeform: apparently - still in business
mircea_popescu: doh.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/net.cpp#0526 << interestingly, these appear to be dead code. what were they meant for ?
assbot: Satoshi 0.5.3.1/src/net.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDYpY1 )
asciilifeform: trinque's gcov paint these a very deep red (0 runs)
asciilifeform: and indeed, i see no graph path to them
asciilifeform: speaking of which, anyone ever get solrodar's graph into a readable form ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu did iirc, via gimp
ben_vulpes: but i never did.
mircea_popescu: yea.
asciilifeform: if it was what i saw, that wasn't readable !
asciilifeform: fucking ball of yarn
mircea_popescu: ...
mircea_popescu: how would i decide that if.
asciilifeform: well i just gave an example. can you tell from that picture whether it is theoretically possible for the 'subscription' routines to be called?
ben_vulpes: readable, renderable...
trinque: asciilifeform: that thing's a bit jacked
trinque: split the results between the build dirs and the ourlibs dir
asciilifeform used grep to answer the question, unambiguous 'no'
trinque: I'm going to give that thing a few more shoves today and see if I can get it all in one tree
asciilifeform: trinque: gcov is useful but doesn't prove code to be alive or dead, can only suggest
asciilifeform: (wallet, for instance, would look entirely 'dead' on a gcov run where such was not used)
ben_vulpes: i don't see any usage of anysubscribed at least, asciilifeform
trinque: yep, makes sense
asciilifeform: the place i'm trying to go with this is: dead code ought not be in The Book, except - in the one and only case where it pre-dates gavin et al, it could be shoved into an appendix
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's keep it simple. have you loaded the svg in gimp and examined the picture painted.
asciilifeform: link to latest version of this?
mircea_popescu: i don't have one. lesee
mircea_popescu: !s from:mircea gimp
assbot: 8 results for 'from:mircea gimp' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea+gimp
asciilifeform: http://cascadianhacker.com/bitcoin/callgraph ?
assbot: Index of /bitcoin/callgraph/ ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDZBuh )
mircea_popescu: http://cascadianhacker.com/bitcoin/callgraph/bitcoin-dot.svg
assbot: Call graph ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDZFds )
asciilifeform: yeah that was what i saw
asciilifeform: incidentally, it is worthless if flattened into a bitmap
asciilifeform: gotta be viewed in a graphical www browser, so you can search
trinque: http://getspringy.com/demo.html
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDZVZX )
asciilifeform: and, after you do this, aside from the nightmare of intersecting lines and bubbles light-years away from their ~only~ antecedent, etc,
trinque: would be nice to grab a node and shake
asciilifeform: you will see things like: 'CNode :: PushVersion' is connected! to whom?? to 'CNode :: CNode'.
trinque: http://marvl.infotech.monash.edu/webcola/ << also looks neat
assbot: cola.js: Constraint-based Layout in the Browser ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE0141 )
asciilifeform: this conveys ~zero~ useful information. in particular, the fact that 'CNode :: PushVersion' is a deadcode island is no longer visually apparent.
trinque: http://marvl.infotech.monash.edu/webcola/examples/browsemovies.html << in particular
assbot: Incremental exploration of a large graph ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE03c9 )
asciilifeform: the above observation is not a criticism of solrodar's work, but of the catastrophically inadequate existing tooling
mircea_popescu: mkay. well....
trinque: so... what about those JS things
asciilifeform: trinque: the 'springy' thing is quite like the molecular strain sims i've used
asciilifeform: except there is no reason to make it a clicking and dragging game
trinque: yeah, best to just have some layout algo make it readable
asciilifeform: can give the 'atoms' electrostatic-style charge, so they repel, and the bonds - 'strain', so they contract ☟︎
trinque: clicking collapsed nodes to expand might be helpful
asciilifeform: then simulated-anneal.
trinque: yeah
asciilifeform: at any rate, i originally wanted this as a wall poster
asciilifeform: so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search
trinque: http://marvl.infotech.monash.edu/webcola/examples/dotpowergraph.html
assbot: Grid Layout ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiecpW )
trinque: that helps my eyes a bit
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell phf http://paste.lisp.org/display/152828#1 << do forgive my ignorance, but what am i missing about converting the "command" into a string? (Adlai, asciilifeform, your eyes'd be appreciated too) ☟︎
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HieixP )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: would need a legend or bigger boxes
asciilifeform: ew
asciilifeform: 'help the mouse find the cheese'
asciilifeform: no thx
trinque: lol
asciilifeform: the most critical thing re: the graph is probably to make it reflect ~only function calls~ rather than class membership ☟︎
asciilifeform: the latter is ~entirely irrelevant~ to a call graph!
punkman: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fggjj/someone_has_broadcast_a_transaction_with_20000/
assbot: Someone has broadcast a transaction with 20,000 inputs! : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE0PG5 )
asciilifeform: why the fuck are 0-valued outputs spendable !?
asciilifeform: (or even valid in a block)
asciilifeform: https://www.f2pool.com/pushtx << interesting
punkman: plenty of pages like that
punkman: https://bitbucket.org/pankkake/pushtx
assbot: pankkake / pushtx — Bitbucket ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hig6XM )
asciilifeform: punkman: the linked page is connected to a live pool. and demands password (presumably subscriptions are sold?)
asciilifeform: reminiscent of what mircea_popescu suggested, but with moar duct tape and chicken wire
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222073 << this is seriously, deeply 'un-lispy' code. it explicitly reads fields!!! what you oughta do is define the 'message' structure in the most minimal way you can think of, and then write a routine that snarfs any structure defined that way, whatever it may be. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 16:01:52; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell phf http://paste.lisp.org/display/152828#1 << do forgive my ignorance, but what am i missing about converting the "command" into a string? (Adlai, asciilifeform, your eyes'd be appreciated too)
ben_vulpes: well how'd i know without putting myself up for the cane
asciilifeform: then you will have a jewel in your toolbox that you can use 20 years from now
asciilifeform: as it is, you have... perl.
asciilifeform: http://www.cliki.net/binary-types << most famous example
assbot: CLiki: Binary-types ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE26g9 )
ben_vulpes: this has come up before, and i had forgotten.
asciilifeform: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types << mirror
assbot: frodef/binary-types · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE28om )
asciilifeform: and yes, it seems like 50x more work, at first glance
asciilifeform: because... it is.
asciilifeform: but the whole point of a computer is that you do the 50, so you don't have to do the 50,000 over next 20 years.
asciilifeform: re: binary-types, see esp. the mirror link, for example
asciilifeform: it has definition of 'elf' (unix executable) format parser
ben_vulpes: am reading, yes
trinque: hm yeah, that's much cooler; it's a lot like you'd describe a grammar for a parser generator
trinque: well fuck, it is that
trinque: lol
trinque finds coffee
ben_vulpes: (but ascii - i /can/ mutate in place, therefore i /must/!)
asciilifeform: wai wat
ben_vulpes: just a joke
ben_vulpes: "we can, therefore we must"
asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3236870273259433@naggum.net.html << obligatory
assbot: Re: two questions about strings - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE2ZW8 )
asciilifeform: (mainly last paragraph)
asciilifeform: ;;isup trilema.com
gribble: trilema.com is down
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: shoulda read it yesterday, what is this.
mircea_popescu: you read when you feel like ?!?!?!
asciilifeform: prolly more of the usual
punkman: every ;;isup trilema.com feeds the troll
asciilifeform: the troll lives on sunshine
asciilifeform: and big fat duffels of benjie from usg
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: srsly, there;s nothing new there as opposed to yest.
trinque: "Common Lisp is a big-city language. Spit out the hayseed, pronounce "shit" with one syllable and "shotgun" with two." << wahahaha
asciilifeform: except that i linked to mircea_popescu's pgp key in a post
asciilifeform: and clicked (by mistake) just now, noticed that no one can see it.
trinque: people who don't like "mean" people have no appreciation for comedy
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: well, it exists as a signed thing in the hands of the conference participants.
asciilifeform: aha.
punkman: how do you pronounce shotgun with more/less syllables than two?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote a short post last night, linking to an archive.today of the phuctored list, and exhorting the folks whose names appear therein to write
asciilifeform: (doubt it will have any effect. perhaps ought to consider spamming them?)
mircea_popescu: fuck em, why would you care/bother ?
scoopbot_revived: Doing "God's Work" http://www.contravex.com/2015/08/02/doing-gods-work/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: would like to find what they have in common ?
mircea_popescu: you're coming from tyhis weird place where we're all possessed of functioning brains here on this great internet and stuff. wtf.
asciilifeform: what, ~nobody on the list~ has brain ?
asciilifeform: not one ?
mircea_popescu: they have in common being either dumb per se or else i nthe crosshairs of the manacling-with-dumb cannon. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: neither class wants to talk to you about it, for different reasons.
asciilifeform: i suppose now that their names have been 'googleable' for months, and still no reaction - this conclusion is nearly inescapable
mircea_popescu: something like that.
punkman: asciilifeform: did you email all of the already? I remember some mention of emails
mircea_popescu: you got one schmuck exercising his right to be idiotic is the sumall.
asciilifeform: punkman: nope. and it would almost certainly vanish in their spam filter, also.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah i recall. was it anvin? iirc
mircea_popescu: some anon.
asciilifeform: ah that one
mircea_popescu: because hey, that's the way to do things.
asciilifeform: that one didn't even sign his name!
mircea_popescu: i'll take it a notch further : none of them had anything to sign. ever.
mircea_popescu: this includes the pgp mailing list.
asciilifeform: 'go to the place - where? no one knows, and bring me back that - which? no one knows' (tm)
mircea_popescu: crazy as it may sound.
asciilifeform: wai wut
asciilifeform: as in, nothing ever changed from their signature being on it or not ?
mircea_popescu: not.a.single.entry.on.your.list.ever.hand.any.legitimate.use.for.encryption.
asciilifeform: well no shit.
mircea_popescu: the impersonated ones, i mean.
mircea_popescu: they just have no business here.
asciilifeform: idk, the 'update signing key' people
asciilifeform: had at least in their own planet, a use
mircea_popescu: it's a case of, 12 yo girly playing a game she doesn't understand with toys that aren't really toys. except online and with boys.
asciilifeform: and some of the maths students may have had something or other to say to someone or other
mircea_popescu: heh.
asciilifeform: and the folks releasing code (anvin? a few others?) did sign it
mircea_popescu: i bet you, dollars to donuts, that they signed it for "wouldn';t it be cool if" reasons. an d the thing doesn't actually work / is not full lengthj /.trivially defeated on some op sec hole or other.
asciilifeform: what i mean to say is, the folks selected for this special delicacy treat, were selected presumably for reasons ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc linus checks sigs
asciilifeform: (of anvin et all)
mircea_popescu suddenly realised, sometimes last night, that the deep reason nothing works is simply that - all of it was made on a lark.
mircea_popescu: not for serious.
asciilifeform: but how often? between him and the gods. i wouldn't know
mircea_popescu: orly ? i thought he just dumps code someone emailed him intop the kernel.
asciilifeform: l0l
mircea_popescu: for srs.
asciilifeform: (if he did, by all rights 2015 ought to have happened in 2005, or 1995... ?)
mircea_popescu: i vaguely recall some incident where precisely this happened.
mircea_popescu: i suppose i should stfu if i can't link it.
asciilifeform also recalls
asciilifeform: but it may have involved freebsd
mircea_popescu: anyway : there's this entire pretend culture, and it goes very deep. dunno how to properly illustrate it in its meta splendor.
asciilifeform: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/15/openbsd_backdoor_claim << rumour
assbot: FBI 'planted backdoor' in OpenBSD • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1HilwSq )
mircea_popescu: but i'm nothing oif not persistent, so lemme try.
asciilifeform: and the 'pretend culture' at least in as far as it concerns public key crypto, was a very deliberate plank of the 'cypherpunk' folks - 'let's use crypto for every piece of shit, to defeat traffic analysis'
mircea_popescu: case A : kid sees girl in bar. waits for moment when no-one's looking around 3am, kloinks her in the head with bottle, drags her dark alley outside, shreds her clothes and her virginity.
mircea_popescu: case B : kid sees girl in bar, works up his courage until 3am, eventually approaches her and explains that he's into kinky stuff. which works out, because she always dreamed about being raped, so they meet in dark alley and have some great sex.
mircea_popescu: and i posit that the entire fucking thing, "from the ground up", is B. all of it.
mircea_popescu: "hey, woiuldn't it be cool if you could like... encrypt shit ?" "why ?" "so you cxould be like... a secre agent!"
mircea_popescu: then they went about roleplaying their super-secret-agent kink for a while
mircea_popescu: and then forgot about it.
mircea_popescu: guitar hero for a different generation.
trinque: sounds like the problem with letting most people define themselves on their own
mircea_popescu: possibly the last time anyone did anything for serious with computers was in tyhe 80s.
trinque: you're going to get fake representations out of most, if it cuts it with the people looking at them
mircea_popescu: since then, everyone's just been trying to salvage utility out of the kids' roleplaying
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: industry exists
trinque: I was fumbling for that idea the other day re: internal representations of identity
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform does it.
asciilifeform: i know, this sound like 'martians live among us'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall that pdp emulator fella ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: somebody's buying that.
asciilifeform: folks with beards as long as my arm.
mircea_popescu: aha. exactly.
mircea_popescu: those are hobbists not industrialists.
asciilifeform: on whom the remnants of 'the west' stand, like on elephants on turtles.
asciilifeform: not hobbyists. those use 'open source' emu
asciilifeform: this one is intended for industrial plant
asciilifeform: which still runs, yes, on pdp
mircea_popescu: as someone's hobby.
asciilifeform: (as do a great many american .mil systems, of the kind which still work)
mircea_popescu: the "industry", such as it is, is fucking google, holding hackathons
asciilifeform: no.
mircea_popescu: trying to feed themselves out of used condoms left behind in dark alleys
asciilifeform: the industry, in actuality, is grey beards maintaining code written in 1973, which keeps the water mains pressurized and the lights on.
asciilifeform: and the condom injection molds going
asciilifeform: etc
mircea_popescu: aha. what's your definition of "industry" ?
asciilifeform: easy: the ox
asciilifeform: not the flies on his horns.
mircea_popescu: because i suspect you go by ops whereas i go by financials./
mircea_popescu: yea. okay.
asciilifeform: if you go by financials, then the 'industry' is the u.s. fed.
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
asciilifeform: which prints the payola
asciilifeform: and then gives it out to demented bums
mircea_popescu: alrighty then. that was my sad storyt for today.
shinohai: http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/08/paris-hilton-tinkerbell-linux.html
assbot: BBspot - Paris Hilton Releases Tinkerbell Linux ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hinhz7 )
mircea_popescu: do not expect a girl with a collar is actually a slave - she probably thought it looks good for her facebook ; do not expect someone with a pgp key is a lord - they probably were just trying to impress someone.
asciilifeform: Slutware Linux << win
asciilifeform: iirc the 'cypherpunk' folks thought of themselves as anonymous soldiers trying to pave the way for 'lords' to use key without insta-flagging
shinohai: LOL @ slutware
shinohai: I should push a slackware release
trinque: is that poor guy still maintaining it?
kakobrekla: heh, re pdp, apparently http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/ ☟︎
assbot: Nuke plants to rely on PDP-11 code UNTIL 2050! • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hiobf3 )
kakobrekla: i guess end of world is 2051
trinque: jurov: how hard is it to dump maildir mail files from mailman?
trinque: I wrote a python script last night that turds together maildir mail from the txt dumps, but it's a hack at best
trinque: at least there are sigs; I don't really care about having identical mail headers to the originals
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6580 @ 0.00055022 = 3.6204 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: i will add, btw, that yes, i know that 'code from 1973' is not 'maintained' in the modern idiot bottomless-barrel-of-bug sense
asciilifeform: instead, it is, e.g., transplanted to a 486 using the emulator mentioned earlier, handwritten by a fella with prolly a metre-long beard
asciilifeform: because if it were not - the water stops coming out of the tap
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: it was officially proclaimed, at one point, that the sole remaining american land-based nuke delivery vehicle, 'minuteman', is 100% vax-powered
asciilifeform: (in the rocket, a miniaturized variant; on land - the real thing)
asciilifeform: 'PDP-11 assembler coders are hard to find' << what a pile of shit
asciilifeform raises hand
asciilifeform: but no, the unspoken qualification is the two-metre-long beard
asciilifeform: and yes, i can understand why.
asciilifeform: the thing that ~must~ be understood is that the ancient iron is maintained entirely, wholly, as a shield against microshitification
asciilifeform: when a pc runs reactor - yes, that is the end.
asciilifeform: yes, let's have winblowz, poettering, drepper, chinese capacitors, in reactor room.
asciilifeform: it'll be grand.
jurov: yes they do
asciilifeform: just let me know the day before, so i can catch the last plane out.
kakobrekla: out to where ?!
jurov: in these parts most reactors reportedly run on win2k
asciilifeform: 'away from here'
kakobrekla: no such place.
asciilifeform: http://www.kafka.org/index.php?aid=172 << obligatory
assbot: The Kafka Project | English | My Destination (transl. Alex Flores) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiriDN )
kakobrekla: everywhere i go, im here.
jurov: trinque it's easy, if you're subscribed you can publish it yourself
jurov: i will, too. eventually.
trinque: jurov: I missed a bunch of messages due to that tls thing, so I'm trying to grab all those
jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/btc-dev.mbox.xz this one is from july 3
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiuFKK )
trinque: cool! thanks!
trinque: that actually covers everything I needed, I think
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i guess that's a point yea.
mircea_popescu: <jurov> in these parts most reactors reportedly run on win2k << why not me while at it.
jurov: me is not properly certified
jurov: can't even imagine what noise would austrians do if a reactor nearby would be allowed to run on something homebrew
jurov: everything had to be modernized by siemens & co..
kakobrekla: >I cooked up a multi-user general ledger system based on this hardware in '79. My client was a rural Iowa accountant who (what a prophet!) was afraid of hacks, so he insisted it NOT be compatible with anything else on the planet. So, though NorthStar DOS was way ahead of it's time, I had to ditch it. I burned my own boot EPROMs, wrote the whole thing using Ashley's assembler. You just can't do that anymore.
kakobrekla: hehe
kakobrekla: same problem in 79
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5960 @ 0.00052554 = 3.1322 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: in other news, https://i.imgur.com/TCjVzuQ.jpg ☟︎
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MFXj0g )
shinohai: LOL
shinohai: LOL BingoBoingo haz to update his article: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/02/world/cecil-the-lion-brother-jericho-alive/
assbot: Cecil the lion's brother Jericho is alive - CNN.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiMDgk )
punkman: "Reportedly, Koko enjoys seeing human nipples and will request her female caregivers to show them to her on occasion. This has resulted in sexual harassment lawsuits by caregivers who have felt pressured by Patterson to show their nipples to Koko against their will. Attorney Jody Weiner, who previously represented KoKo in licensing agreements, writes that he should have recognized warning signs of a sex scandal. "
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Nope. Jericho it turns out is not actually Cecil's brother. CNN is just listening to any crank who calls in.
shinohai: I had hoped you could churn out another story based on that xD
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 2949 @ 0.001135 = 3.3471 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11565 @ 0.00052268 = 6.0448 BTC [-]
mod6: <asciilifeform> interestingly, incitatus synced and stayed synced today << ahh ok, thanks for the heads up
shinohai: I m syncing the dark side's wallet, keeps crashing with CDB: Error -30974, can't open database
mircea_popescu: !up eric
mircea_popescu: !up livegnik
mircea_popescu: !up roasbeef
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> can give the 'atoms' electrostatic-style charge, so they repel, and the bonds - 'strain', so they contract << this is actually a pretty great idea. and then run iterations over the thing until stable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search << technically speaking, needing "search" is a symptom that you've not yet learned it. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ie, fit it in head.
decimation: 17:42 <+jurov> everything had to be modernized by siemens & co.. < jurov, but why does 'modernize' mean 'run on winblows 2k?'
decimation: where's the german alternative to microsoft?
jurov: ask siemens
mircea_popescu: siemens is "german" in the sense tsipras is "greek" and so on. absolutely nothing to do. ☟︎☟︎
decimation: agilent - runs spectrum analyzers on winblows. rohde & schwarz - same
decimation: it's not like they sell enough of them for 'people to come to expect'
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222307 << no shit. and if i'd learned it, wouldn't need the diagram. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 19:59:28; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search << technically speaking, needing "search" is a symptom that you've not yet learned it.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re punkman's reddit link - the tards miss the fruit and focus on the pit of that thing, as usual.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> (or even valid in a block) << they are not valid. they are spendable for reasons that have to do with what the protocol says, ie, unintentionally.
asciilifeform: well sure
jurov: decimation: perhaps you missed how my info how gigawatts of steam turbines are simulated and projected ... in excel
jurov: (i mean, when they are installed, hopefully not when they are built. but not sure on that, either)
mircea_popescu: or my info as to how the entire fucking house of cards came down chiefly bewcause some idiots were doing copula calculations
mircea_popescu: also in excel
mircea_popescu: (gauss copula, look into that sometime. if you want "pseudoscience that burned the world", global warming's nothing, witch hunts are nothing, this thing ruioned trillions)
asciilifeform: jurov: the thing is, nothing is built from the ground up (except for the circus mentioned earlier just now by mircea_popescu) with 'excel'. the infrastructure is running on fumes
asciilifeform: and i'd bet good money that there is, somewhere deep inside that win2k reactor, a real computer
asciilifeform: largely autonomous from the shitputer
asciilifeform: (which in turn is mostly a display of gui dials and gauges)
jurov: like in iran?
asciilifeform: jurov is almost certainly thinking of the refinery
asciilifeform: where yes, winblowz
asciilifeform: this is because the poor saps were stuck buying new
asciilifeform: can't get the pdp new.
asciilifeform: buy new, get 'siemens', run moar winblowz.
jurov: um..er.. how is half of europe gonna get a whiff of pdp?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222312 << aha, international komy000nity!!! ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 20:02:14; mircea_popescu: siemens is "german" in the sense tsipras is "greek" and so on. absolutely nothing to do.
asciilifeform: jurov: ask the folks with the intact sov reactors
scoopbot_revived: Line betting on BitBet, July 2015 http://thewhet.net/2015/line-betting-on-bitbet-july-2015/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your idea of nuke plants is more akin to a UP's big boy control hatch. this is not how they work, whole shit's run in java these days. for that matter - remember the recent airbus which had all 4 engines stop because counter smash issues ?
jurov: ^
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1) nothing realtime-reactive runs in java 2) the counter overflows after what was it, 8 months of continuous engine time ????
mircea_popescu: i tell you. there are no professionals left. all children posing for the mirror.
mircea_popescu: a world of play-pretend like they're adults and doing things
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i recall, maxint / 100 it was.
jurov: and i strongly suspect the computers of yore aren't what alf imagines, either. have them eat a text with arbitrary linelengths and see
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 8 *30 * 24 * 3600 * 100
gribble: 2073600000
mircea_popescu: seems about right
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-05-2015#1118863 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-05-2015#1118867 ☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 03-05-2015 03:39:28; decimation: asciilifeform: I have a friend who is an old graybeard EE, been working on actual circuitry since the 80's
assbot: Logged on 03-05-2015 03:40:09; decimation: he said recently a sea change has come with kids coming out of school; they want to specify massive cpu, memory for very simple micro-controllers so they can run java
asciilifeform: jurov: go feed it the text
hanbot: deedbot- http://thewhet.net/han/mpifpc4_072015.txt.asc
deedbot-: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: jurov or with locales :D
asciilifeform: but jurov isn't wrong, per se, there probably ~is~ a reactor somewhere handled by four java boxes trying to cover for each other's garbagecollector pauses
mircea_popescu: a nuclear reactor is a kind of flywheel
mircea_popescu: you got plenty of time.
asciilifeform: and you can tell from a distance when a sector of civilization has been consumed by the cancer
chetty: feed the computer anything, with front panel switches
asciilifeform: !s flashlight crash
assbot: 4 results for 'flashlight crash' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=flashlight+crash
jurov: all out email and else woes are due to text originally defined as "interspersed by cr in shorter intervals than any buffer wherever gets() is used"
jurov: all else is binary by definition
asciilifeform: jurov: don't confuse the retardation of unix&descendants for 'the real computer'
mircea_popescu: i suspect this is actually the correct definition of "text" for computing.
decimation: you guys realise we are gonna have to respecify email too right?
asciilifeform: 'the real computer' was and is programmed in asm ab initio - yes, from entirely empty space; for every task.
mircea_popescu: decimation how about respecifying email as null.
jurov: asciilifeform: and your pdp example is?
asciilifeform: ab initio.
decimation: mircea_popescu: sounds good to me. file transfer a .txt
asciilifeform: respecifying email as null << win
mircea_popescu: imagine if every so often i had to click here to see if there's new lines
mircea_popescu: then click on the lines indioviduallky
mircea_popescu: FUCKING HELL WHO DID THIS
decimation: actually you could argue that 'email' as a concept is 'let's pretend we are working at the post office'
mircea_popescu: ^
decimation: not 'let's build a system for reliably transmitting information'
mircea_popescu: it makes as much sense as drawing horses on a car.
mircea_popescu: it had its importance selling technology to the retards.
mircea_popescu: but other than that, it's as useful as "wysiwyg" or "point and click" or "just works!"
mircea_popescu: nonsensical gimmicks of the ilk of "stop fucking your sister or else santa won't bringf you presents" and "eat your veggies so you can overpower your sister and stick it in her"
asciilifeform: l0l
decimation: much of it stems from "need to hustle to make money, use what's on the shelf and make it fit"
decimation: I was watching a 'banking' show on the BBC the other day. it featured a young afghan who managed to make it from goat-fuck-stan to the uk welfare state
decimation: he complained that in afghanistan, everything is free - but people are poor and live in mud huts. they envy the english for their warm houses &etc. but now he works 12 hour days to try to make rent, pay bills - and never has time to enjoy his warm house
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see also the idiocy of 'skeumorphism'
decimation: because nothing is free
asciilifeform: decimation: this and precisely this, is why i laugh at people who discuss compensation in terms of money
decimation: yeah, it would be interesting for someone to interview people exactly like this: grew up orc, came to 'first world'
asciilifeform: ~i don't give a fuck~ what you're paid, how much of it do you get to ~keep~, and how much time do you get to sit in the warm house and drink tea and not think of work
decimation: later in the episode he managed to somehow get an offer from the uk govt - he could buy his flat for 20k pounds
asciilifeform: very few orcs have the brains to even consider this formula
decimation: but the minimum loan from the bank is 25k
decimation: he was like 'what am I gonna do with an extra 9k and I have to pay interest!"
decimation: the rest of the show featured idiots with 25k credit card balances trying 'refinance'
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: must have been filmed a while ago, these figures would probably have an extra trailing zero today
asciilifeform: at least where i live.
decimation: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b061xf9j/the-bank-a-matter-of-life-and-debt-3-lending < can watch here if you manage to obtain uk ip
assbot: BBC iPlayer - The Bank: A Matter of Life and Debt - 3. Lending ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qb2h )
asciilifeform: back to the earlier observation, the attachment orcs have to the myth of 'the west' is a truly religious affair
decimation: yeah you could tell the guy was disappointed with his situation
asciilifeform: not even being planted nose-first into the genuine pile of shit, has any curative effect
asciilifeform: he will probably try to make his way 'moar west'
decimation: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/07/09/illegal-immigrants-exploit-channel-tunnel-closure/ < for example here
assbot: Illegal Immigrants Exploit Channel Tunnel Closure - Breitbart ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qfz5 )
asciilifeform: to, say, canada, or usa.
asciilifeform: where he can work 14 hour days for a flat with six of his kind
asciilifeform: (or get into the jail, where, approximately, same)
decimation: somehow people from Eritrea are convinced that if they only make it to the uk they can supports their entire families!
decimation: not realizing the complete chumpatron they are entering
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=28-07-2015#1214974 << see also ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 28-07-2015 04:36:46; asciilifeform: 'hot', in this case, being the world of the coolie, and 'cold' being the world he aspires to enter (or at least send his children to, oxbridge and harvaprinceyaleton)
decimation: usa was kinda like this in the 1800's
jurov: yet no one goes back to afganistan
decimation: east coast cities swelled with immigrants trying to get some monies
decimation: but at least at that time they could buy a cheap farm in kansas
decimation: jurov: good point
asciilifeform: jurov: warm house is addictive. or whole 'west' circus would voluntarily rebuild afganistan at home
mircea_popescu: decimation> yeah, it would be interesting for someone to interview people exactly like this: grew up orc, came to 'first world' << ie, half of romania under 50yo.
asciilifeform: (they are anyway, but slowly)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16425 @ 0.00052268 = 8.585 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: prolly 1/4 of russia or so, cause they're orc-er.
mircea_popescu: and re the myth of the west, there was that trilema article linked from a recent one, "florida and other places".
mircea_popescu: tis a sad thing.
asciilifeform: jurov: it is the very meaning of the word 'addiction' as commonly used. (no one speaks of being 'addicted' to air, sunlight, etc)
mircea_popescu: jurov actually plenty of people do go back to afghanistan.
asciilifeform: if you want things that are ultimately doing you in in double time, and aren't even particularly fun - that is it
mircea_popescu: heck, 50% of the 1st generation immigrants return home with the loot, marry and live there.
mircea_popescu: the retards - stay.
mircea_popescu: the rest just loot and leave.
asciilifeform: when there is what to loot..
mircea_popescu: which is ~why~ the libertard open border stuff doesn't work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for as long as china takes the coupons...
asciilifeform: (in more recent times, the 'loot' is in the form of bait, handed out monthly at welfare office)
decimation: it stands a prayer of working if someone gets nothing for 'just showing up'
mircea_popescu: no, it does not.
decimation: but that implies nobody gets paid just to exist
mircea_popescu: because the people you want don't want you, and the people you want you nobody wants.
decimation: yeah, there's some raw human truth there
mircea_popescu: myeah.
decimation: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/28/us-finland-immigration-idUSKCN0Q22JJ20150728 < finland is going through this now
assbot: Thousands rally in Finland against lawmaker's anti-immigration remark| Reuters ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qxG5 )
mircea_popescu: there hasn't yet in the history of mankind been a wealth marriage that was happy. and "free immigraton" is notexceptional just because large.
asciilifeform: decimation: they envy sweden its great mosques
decimation: some politicians suggesting that maybe it's not good to import africa wholesale in one generation isn't such a great idea
trinque: against racism lol
decimation: of course they are hateful racists for suggesting it
mircea_popescu: finnish chicks want the cock, what.
mircea_popescu: i can see it.
mircea_popescu: what';d you have them to, wait on rpietilla ?
asciilifeform: l0l!
jurov: is there any successful example of resisting immigration?
asciilifeform: Ze Supernoud Lifestyle
asciilifeform: jurov: japan.
asciilifeform: resists, to the bitter end.
asciilifeform: like real men.
decimation: ^ true
decimation: except they are not reproducing ☟︎
asciilifeform: wake me up when they reach 1900 level and still drop
mircea_popescu: there's no resisting immigration. vienna fell. byzantium fell.
trinque: that's the economic side's fault
asciilifeform: what do we need the extra people post-1900 for anyway
decimation: where's that rammstein 'amerika' song
asciilifeform: ^
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-07-2015#1215885 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 02:37:56; shinohai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxroiTRg7Tg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'there is no resisting ants and flies, giraffe fell, elephant fell'
mircea_popescu: quite so.
asciilifeform: but not from flies.
mircea_popescu: of course not.
mircea_popescu: the idea that immigration is the problem is braindamage of the level of thinking the maggots made the corpse.
mircea_popescu: somehow the immigrants weren't the problem back when azns were washing gold miner's shirts for a penny
mircea_popescu: and the irish fought the blacks for who's gonna polish knob tonight
asciilifeform: the only shred of logic in there is that the maggots sometimes do feast on living flesh
mircea_popescu: never.
mircea_popescu: in fact, fly maggots used to clean wounds.
mircea_popescu: they like live flesh about as much as you like birdshit.
asciilifeform: yes. and removed when they start to eat the living flesh
mircea_popescu: "the humans sometimes feast on the bird shit". i guess ?
asciilifeform: (they will, from lack of what else, eventually)
decimation: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/19/dirt-poor-haitians-eat-mu_n_168339.html
assbot: Dirt Poor Haitians Eat Mud Cookies To Survive ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qGJx )
asciilifeform: decimation: i suppose they haven't any accordions to boil
mircea_popescu: is this more jenkem journalism from the jenkem journals ?
decimation: lol yeah where's jenkem
mircea_popescu: huffpo huffed it.
mircea_popescu: hence huffpopo.
decimation: no look it's in real media too http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2008/01/31/haitians_trick_empty_bellies_with_dirt_cookies/
assbot: Haitians trick empty bellies with dirt cookies - The Boston Globe ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qKZK )
asciilifeform: actually, iirc washpost huffed it
asciilifeform: in the '90s
asciilifeform: 'dirt cookie' was a favourite in chinese cultural revolution
asciilifeform: (there is ~some~ nutritious matter in the earth)
mircea_popescu: and vitamins!
mircea_popescu: thing is - there's more nutritious matter in shit.
mircea_popescu: especially if a rich dude shat it.
mircea_popescu: (for the obvious reason - what do you think earth is after all. microorganism digested shit)
decimation: re:immigrants -> it seems to me that there is a difference between "we have empty land that someone could show up and till" and "one more derp could survive on the scraps here"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: usually in china they put it through a pig first. but yes.
mircea_popescu: decimation the difference is whether you run pinkerton or welfare.
decimation: https://suite.io/vic-sanborn/3des2zr
assbot: Night-Soil Men, the Human Waste Collectors of Georgian London ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qXvX )
asciilifeform: ^ was big business esp. in the brief time when piss was boiled for nitrate
mircea_popescu: most of classical london consisted of a majority of "recyclers".
mircea_popescu: and a minority of tradesmen, moving goods on an abstract mercator map
asciilifeform: world's biggest unsurprise. of what is there most in a city? shit
mircea_popescu: well, these days it's "shitheads"
decimation: now we are too rich to care, apparently, just dig up more fossilized shit
asciilifeform: obligatory >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-03-2014#552444 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 09-03-2014 01:03:00; asciilifeform: 'Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome. By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers, carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East, the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt; and the carts brought nothing out but loads of dung. That was their return cargo. London turns dirt into gold. Rome turne
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "as was the case with this one." << link missing ?
mircea_popescu: "the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia authorized a search warrant" << for the record, this is not how it works. a judge authorises it, and im nary too enchanted by this tendency of individuals to hide behind imaginary shields.
decimation: asciilifeform: was thinking about that 'pcb card' problem. what if you terminated each trace into its own tank circuit, and then 'probed' the circuit with a vna?
decimation: each tank would resonate at a particular frequency, or not, if trace is not blown. could terminate into bnc
mircea_popescu: if you're going to do this why not measure inductance/harmonics/etc.
mircea_popescu: end up with a weird sort of ADC
decimation: yeah that's what I'm suggesting (complex impedance - part of which is inductance)
decimation: if one is clever, one could make the tank circuit out of pure pcb trace, making it cheaper. 'crosstalk' could be a problem though
jurov: inb4 "multilevel ROM" by placing resistors
mircea_popescu: ya lol
decimation: yeah but placing/removing components is a pain and expensive
mircea_popescu: what would be really great would be if your thing could somehow be made out of glass
mircea_popescu: you buy 6x6 inch panbes of glass and crash them ☟︎
mircea_popescu: thatr's your secret key
decimation: heh
decimation: the breakage geometry you mean?
mircea_popescu: you plug the thing in whatever.
mircea_popescu: and measure its remaining connections
decimation: ah I see what you mean.
mircea_popescu: much better than a pcb, if can be had.
asciilifeform: decimation: crosstalk and rf
mircea_popescu: so you know... some people generate their keys at the firing range. some people have a designated bat. some people make a new key after each domestic argument/divorce
decimation: asciilifeform: sure, but those could be managed
asciilifeform: decimation: look into why analogue computer went away.
decimation: I get it, but I just wanna store some values, not compute derivatives
asciilifeform: the 'crushed glass secret key' was picked up by academitards as 'physically unclonable function'
asciilifeform: but it doesn't do any good unless there are 2 of'em (at minimum)
asciilifeform: (goes without saying that it is only good for symmetric crypto)
asciilifeform: break a glass rod.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just an exotic way to rng, is in the end what he was trying to build
mircea_popescu: "take a pcb and scratch it"
asciilifeform: then sure
mircea_popescu: necessarily goes to "crush glass pane"
asciilifeform: just don't be surprised when it stops working when it is wet/cold/hot in the room
asciilifeform: or if different room
mircea_popescu: yawell.
asciilifeform: (see mircea_popescu's old 'dragonfly' article based on my conf-II chat)
asciilifeform: very often, folks forget just how much analogue strange there is in the world, that is kept (mostly) out of their digital computer
decimation: actually that gives me another idea: http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/lichtenbergs.html
assbot: What are Lichtenberg Figures, and how are they Made? ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ4XVi )
decimation: could make a lichtenberg figure key and use a camera to distill down into bits
asciilifeform: decimation: what is the point of it
asciilifeform: once 'distilled to bits', that'd be your key
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I was thinking about generating key in a seperate machine and then 'hand-carving' the pcb to store key
asciilifeform: the reason why 'physical function' is that it ought to be precisely a ~function~
asciilifeform: that can be used as a one-time pad
asciilifeform: so can 'ask' the glass a 64-bit integer, and get another
decimation: I'm thinking about ways to manage key material that involve physical devices that can be inspected
asciilifeform: and your partner behind enemy lines asks same, and gets same answer.
asciilifeform: decimation: if that's all you want, get a 'sinclair'
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo "as was the case with this one." << link missing ? << That's a cazalla
decimation: asciilifeform: well, also I want to be reliable
decimation: sinclair uses floppies?
asciilifeform: can use sd card, with a little soldering
asciilifeform: incidentally,
asciilifeform has been greatly enjoying http://www.zxdesign.info/book
assbot: The ZX Spectrum ULA: How to design a microcomputer ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ5wyk )
asciilifeform: it is a priceless tour of 1980s chip design, among other things
decimation: oh I thought they used 6502 like everyone else
asciilifeform: z80
decimation: ah
asciilifeform: the other giant of the '80s
asciilifeform: anyway, the book is about the i/o chip
asciilifeform: not the cpu
asciilifeform: man does not live by cpu alone !
decimation: yeah the 'secret sauce' of the commadore was the video chip
asciilifeform: it was not an era of elusive 'sauces'
asciilifeform: but overall good design
decimation: yes.
asciilifeform: that doesn't reduce to 'xxxx chip'
decimation: based on that 'bil herd' interview, it sounds like the board designers and chip designers worked in same building, with fab!
asciilifeform: and consider also that, of all the toy computers, the one with the singularly worst design in every conceivable way, won.
decimation: because cheap.
asciilifeform: no, WAS NOT CHEAP
asciilifeform: either.
asciilifeform: but bezzle-annointed, yes
decimation: cheaper than s/360
asciilifeform: so it did not matter that it was a stinking pile of shit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52911 @ 0.0005037 = 26.6513 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: wasn't competing with s/360
asciilifeform: but with typewriter.
asciilifeform: and secretary (who did the job 10x better, but...)
decimation: true. people who wanted 'adult' computers in the 80's, had
decimation: or at least could get access to one
asciilifeform: http://www.oldcomputers.net/ibm5150.html << prices
assbot: IBM 5150 Personal Computer ... ( http://bit.ly/1hdODl5 )
asciilifeform: add a zero or so for modern usd.
decimation: yeah my dad paid about $1500 in 1989 dollars for x86 pc... 'epson apex' ☟︎
asciilifeform: the thing was, in every respect, a 'soviet' production in the stereotypical western sense of the word
asciilifeform: it was made by folks who did not have any reason whatsoever to give a fuck re: quality or cost.
asciilifeform: who ~knew~ that they were winners as soon as they popped out of the womb
asciilifeform: and 'winners', naturally, win
asciilifeform: the ibm pc, recall, was that abomination where they didn't even bother to use dram chips that passed qa
asciilifeform: instead, 'deadbugging' several duds over one another
asciilifeform: to get a close approximation of one working unit
decimation: and yet still cost $3k 1981 dollars!
decimation: about $8k 2015 dollars
mod6: All: I've put some steps together for installing ubuntu 10.04 & debian 6.0.10
mod6: I've tested installing the iso's indicated on a VM and went through my own steps 2x (once for each OS)
mod6: if someone with some spare time can validate my findings that would be great -- these are just the first two of a number of these that need to be discovered/defined
mod6: http://dpaste.com/1TMGCVA.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hdPty7 )
decimation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/IBM_System_36091.sj.jpg < ascii, entire machine state visible for inspection
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hdPtyj )
asciilifeform: as on 'univac'
asciilifeform: and no, not whole state
asciilifeform: just the regs
decimation: well, yeah no storage
shinohai: mod6: I'll do a confirm this week.
mod6: shinohai: thanks!!
mod6: much appreciated
shinohai: nw
shinohai: I haven't got to build that latest yet though, still fails on boost every time.
asciilifeform: mod6: have you had a chance to build 'rotor' ?
mod6: no, not since i couldn't get it to build before. i'll try it again this coming week for sure.
asciilifeform: mod6: note that the toolchain and deps build only ever needs to be done once, per machine
asciilifeform: after that, it is precisely the same as working with 'stator'
decimation: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/26/the_identity_crisis_of_the_modern_zoo/ < amusing: "“If you asked somebody in our profession 10 years ago, ‘Is the gorilla happy?’, they would get really upset and say, ‘Why would you ask such an anthropomorphic question?’ ” said Kagan, 57. “But these sort of things now are legitimately a part of scientific study and assessment.”"
assbot: The identity crisis of the modern zoo - The Boston Globe ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ7sXQ )
mod6: asciilifeform: ok, thanks. so noted.
mod6: i.e. I dont have to rebuild the buildroot & "universe" every time I want to add a patch, just rebuild 'stator'.
decimation: you only really need to rebuild bitcoind if that's what you patched
asciilifeform: aha
decimation: just make sure you are using the correct paths
mod6: yeah, i was trying to say this: <+decimation> you only really need to rebuild bitcoind if that's what you patched
decimation: one nice thing about 'rotor' system: only one choice of build environment
mod6: right.
mod6: i like the allure of this.
asciilifeform: the main allure, for me, was 1) drepper goes to the furnace where he belongs; no glibc 2) can switch cpu arch by turning a knob
mod6: gotcha.
shinohai: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fg0jw/could_a_cartel_of_pool_operators_collude_to/ctoh97g
assbot: luke-jr comments on Could a cartel of pool operators collude to 51%-attack the blockchain and/or change the protocol? ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ7QFR )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00052762 = 5.1707 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: 'It is mid-boggling that a protocol that "handles assets worth billions of dollars" is defined only by a bloated C++ implementation -- maintaned by one company, that of course will not be responsible for any losses...'
asciilifeform: lulzy
williamdunne: jurov: What would you like on the Eurola website? Starting out with clisp so I'll see if I can get that done as my hello world project
jurov: marketplace with orders managed from irc ☟︎
williamdunne: Wanna do a brief or summin?
asciilifeform: trinque, ben_vulpes, anyone else with 'clang' -- here's an idea, use the graph-walker solrodar used to determine the subset of openssl (see old thread re: same)
trinque: asciilifeform: maybe discernable with better lcov output too?
asciilifeform: trinque: see earlier thread today re: coverage
trinque: the lcov stuff would probably be more helpful with a battery of tests run upon it such as mod6 has discussed
asciilifeform: just because a line did not execute in ten billion hours does not mean that it could not
asciilifeform: have to prove that it is unreachable.
asciilifeform: before it can be cut.
trinque: yeah, true, this would call for static analysis to know it can be cut
asciilifeform: which is what i was talking about.
jurov: doesn't openssl use function pointers?
asciilifeform: does it ?
trinque: odeary me
trinque bbl
jurov: just asking, i wouldn't put it past them
williamdunne: jurov: I'm not sure how long I'll be around for, but if you drop me a doc outlining what you want I'll have a look at it tomorrow
asciilifeform: jurov: this kind of thing is at the root of a very old disagreement i have with mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: jurov: his position, if you recall, is that we are more or less stuck with the turds forever. ☟︎
asciilifeform: because no one will ever fully nail down the function of the existing orchestra
asciilifeform: in such a way as to guarantee 100% compatibility
jurov: i remember
asciilifeform: my position is that this is reasonable, but what is unreasonable is to ever have more respect for a program than its author did.
jurov: williamdunne: eventually.
asciilifeform: and that if you are using a pile of shit which fits in no one's head, don't be surprised when the inevitable happens
asciilifeform: and that there is not a magical elixir that absolves you of the need to 'fit in head'
asciilifeform: all works of man are either 'fits in head' or 'pile of shit', no exceptions
asciilifeform: (note that i did not specify ~which~ head)
asciilifeform: but there has to be... ~a~ head.
asciilifeform: related...
asciilifeform: 'Overriding and updating old information is something I have to work really hard at. The end result of the way I think and the way the standard is defined is that I immediately saw these massively complex ways to do things that "nobody" understood. Take HyTime and what it calls "architectual forms" -- I vividly remember a long walk around a quiet Tallahassee one summer night with the creator of this concept, when I questione
asciilifeform: d some of the designs and how it would be implemented, and he was quiet for the longest time before he said that I was probably the first person to have understood what he was _really_ trying to accomplish. That would have been _such_ a great thing if it had been, say, rocket science, but it was not. It was a man-made complexity so great that it had required _months_ of brain-wracking to really get my intuition working. Tha
asciilifeform: t was the first time I had really serious doubts about the wisdom of SGML's structuring process, because the massive complexity of it all is _completely_ pointless and a result of spreading the semantics so thin that you had to keep mental track of an enormous number of relationships to end up with an idea of what something should do or mean. It does not have to be that way. It was _profoundly_ disappointing to discover that
asciilifeform: at the end of this long process of grasping something that looked intellectually challenging lie only a complexity that resulted from _rejecting_ simplicity of design at a few crucial points. Hell, it still took me years to figure out what alternatives they _should_ have picked up, and by then it was too late.'
asciilifeform: ( http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3207878053204561@naggum.net.html )
assbot: Re: XML and lisp - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEOrah )
asciilifeform: '...But it is the same problem we find in C++. The question to be asked of massive complexity like that is not "what wonderful things did you find out that made this necessary", but "whatever did you _miss_ that made this so horribly complex"? You can sometimes see people who are really, really dumb go about some simple tasks in a way that tells you that they have arrived at their ways of performing it through an incredibly
asciilifeform: painful process that they are loathe to reopen or examine at all no matter how hard it is to get it right for them.'
punkman: asciilifeform: all works of man are either 'fits in head' or 'pile of shit', no exceptions << don't some things require more than a single head?
asciilifeform: no
asciilifeform: if something ~requires~ >1 head, it consists of separable things.
asciilifeform: i happen to believe that we have not yet devised the means for truly separating - conceptually - computer programs
asciilifeform: this is why, to return to earlier thread, pdp11 programmed by a single mind who writes every single instruction that the machine will ever execute, can be a jewel that is maintained for generations,
asciilifeform: while pdp11 with unix - loses linefeeds
asciilifeform: and evolves into what we have now
asciilifeform: and is a bottomless pit of 'nobody could have foreseen's
asciilifeform: observe the 'CRITICAL_SECTION' turds in bitcoind
asciilifeform: are those the work of a fella who truly, deeply understood what the machine is doing?
asciilifeform: who had a machine for which this claim could be made, even in principle ?
asciilifeform: or are they something else.
punkman: clearly not understood considering the number of results in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/search?q=deadlock&type=Issues
assbot: Search Results · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEREH5 )
asciilifeform: it is a result of the kind of cargocultism driven by justified and maniacal fear that leads, e.g., c programmers to pepper their code with redundant parenthesis
asciilifeform: (leading to a lifelong phobia of that key on the keyboard)
asciilifeform: my point, incidentally, was not that satoshi was a tard (though it may be)
asciilifeform: but that winblowz makes the kind of certainty needed to avoid the 'grasping for the handrails' described earlier, impossible
asciilifeform: and unix - marginally less so
punkman: Ada on bare metal then?
asciilifeform: for example.
asciilifeform: but also must be very particular, ~which~ metal
asciilifeform: read the src to linux's bootloader some time
asciilifeform: can you tell me which lines are actually necessary ?
asciilifeform: betcha you can't
asciilifeform: even if you took 'operating systems' at uni
asciilifeform: for instance, the 'a20 gate' is almost certainly not actually implemented in your chipset ☟︎
asciilifeform: yet it is in EVERY MOTHERFUCKING BOOTLOADER on the planet
asciilifeform: even microshit's
asciilifeform: because wat if you have a 386, aha. ☟︎
asciilifeform: much of this crud is quite like satoshi's 'critical sections'
asciilifeform: included because author has no fucking idea what is going on
asciilifeform: and cut&paste, because 'people have come to expect'
asciilifeform: or 'nobody was ever fired for making bootloader six bytes larger'
asciilifeform: and this shit adds up
asciilifeform: the notion that it doesn't, that it doesn't matter whether bootloader is six bytes of liquid shit heavier,
asciilifeform: is the fundamental lie.
asciilifeform: all of it - matters.
asciilifeform: the fact that x86 cpu has idiot ibm-mandated instructions for doing binary-coded-decimal - MATTERS
asciilifeform: the fact that there is no standardized chipset, and that x86 is really a loose collection of mostly-incompatible shitboxes that somehow pretend to run the same soft - matters.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-04-2015#1086967 << see also. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 03-04-2015 19:07:33; mircea_popescu: look. whatever whatever may be built as or not, i have two basic expectations. one is, for fucking machinery to behave the same way from night to next evening. the other, albeit weaker, is that if i get a "minimal work" thing i actually have to do minimal work.
kakobrekla: The BIOS in many personal computers stores the date and time in BCD because the MC6818 real-time clock chip used in the original IBM PC AT motherboard provided the time encoded in BCD. < heh
kakobrekla: compatible with the pyramids or what was it
mircea_popescu: contemptible with the pyramids.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-complexity-of-life-a-triad/ < dragonfly article.
assbot: The complexity of life, a triad on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LZbV9r )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222602 << fucking monitor was like 1200, cca 1985-86 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 21:15:16; decimation: yeah my dad paid about $1500 in 1989 dollars for x86 pc... 'epson apex'
mircea_popescu: or 120k of the romanian lei of the time. 50 or so salaries.
mircea_popescu: heh Luke-Jr fighting a loser's battle with his "bitcoin core" matters twu faith.
mircea_popescu: hey midnightmagic ask me things about things will you.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222651 << total win. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 22:00:29; jurov: marketplace with orders managed from irc
mircea_popescu: if jurov finally gets a proper chat system built in, and we have a chat bot that does auction lists etc...
mircea_popescu: eulora is suddenly more advanced than the state of new york.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222669 << the problem is this : you have to verify old blocks. all of them, al lthe way to genesis. if you do not, for whatever reason, you are on an alt. and if you're going to make an alt, better make it properly and deliberately rather than the idiot woman "i had too much too drink so things happened" approach. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 22:11:06; asciilifeform: jurov: his position, if you recall, is that we are more or less stuck with the turds forever.
mircea_popescu: but that aside, naggum's via alf point re complexity being usually and generally as a safe bet the result of someone missing the thinkboat certainly stands resplendent on its own feet.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222718 << no, not "because what if you have a 386" but because a) does it work as is ? and b) do we know anyone who could cut it out and not introduce a bug ? ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-08-2015 22:53:44; asciilifeform: because wat if you have a 386, aha.
mircea_popescu: same reason you have an appendix.
mircea_popescu: "hurts nothing and too hard to take out"
scoopbot_revived: The very very jealous with envy thing, part deux. http://trilema.com/2015/the-very-very-jealous-with-envy-thing-part-deux/
asciilifeform: yes, yes appendix.
asciilifeform: problem is, we're drowning in appendices
asciilifeform: and they all have appendicitis.
mircea_popescu: so it is.
mircea_popescu: every generation has this, an overpowering, indomitable reason why the previous one fails to matter.
mircea_popescu: for kids born in the 80s when talking to their parents it's "shut the fuck up, you fucked women in a single hole your entire life"
asciilifeform: as for the deliberate alt, it is somewhat like the ancient discussion about whether one would rather be 'scanned in' and shot and ~then~ replaced by the robot running the sim, or to have a neuron at a time replaced with electric one
mircea_popescu: and it stands. no man can look you in the face past that, for he's a sort of a toy.
asciilifeform: same result, but many more takers for the latter than the former.
mircea_popescu: but it goes all the way to the fucking celts, you knoiw, "you never had iron tools. everything you say, and everything you think you mean or stand for is therefore invalid"
asciilifeform: ^ well no shit
mircea_popescu: perhaps this is the next one.
mircea_popescu: "you can't code. fuck you."
asciilifeform: these words are uttered, yes, today. by childrenz who 'code' php...
mircea_popescu: it's not fucking magic, yo. utterance is not the glue that makes it stick.
asciilifeform: i see no glue, thus far. only the utterance.
mircea_popescu: we're discussing the future.
mircea_popescu: the reason you can not see the substance of the future should be apparent.
asciilifeform: 'what did the future ever do for me' (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: >D
mircea_popescu: off to eat bbl
kakobrekla: It seems that evolution had not merely selected the best code for the task, it had also advocated those programs which took advantage of the electromagnetic quirks of that specific microchip environment. The five separate logic cells were clearly crucial to the chip’s operation, but they were interacting with the main circuitry through some unorthodox method < heh
kakobrekla: 'Furthermore, the final program did not work reliably when it was loaded onto other FPGAs of the same type.' < fun
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/iFfGs
assbot: losermcfail comments on A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? ... ( http://bit.ly/1N2UHGW )
hanbot: sounds like what asciilifeform was talking about.