log☇︎
⏐︎ 21381
mircea_popescu: in other news, the new merchant of venice is actually 40% done!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00051687 = 4.6518 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: O.0
asciilifeform: l0l neato
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15150 @ 0.00051279 = 7.7688 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla http://dpaste.com/0B92T3F
assbot: dpaste: 0B92T3F ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q1cOBl )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz,
asciilifeform: ~considerably~ smoother performance on the trb+malleus nodez
asciilifeform: (vs historical)
asciilifeform: may be simply on account of the ~80% drop in traffic, though.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo it is not an accurate description of malleus patch to say that it only nukes peers using bloom filters. it nukes any peer which issues any command whatsoever unsupported in trb.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I haven't seen any other commands in debug.log yet. Perhaps leave a comment on post?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it won't show up in the log as a distinct thing
asciilifeform: just 'heathen.'
BingoBoingo: I mean before using the patch. I've only seen bloom filter from multibit/Shildebach et al hit my node.
BingoBoingo: Other commands may emerge, but bloom filter request is the only one I have seen in the wild.
mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe all this "soft-fork" bullshit is really a good opportunity to start a #b-a mining pool.
mircea_popescu: anyone want to run a pool ?
asciilifeform: on submarine ?
mircea_popescu: let's not get overdramatique.
asciilifeform: interesting idea, but what's to keep a public pool from infinite ddos 24/7.
BingoBoingo: Who says public pool? Or single point of failure? Why not fork p2pool?
mircea_popescu: iirc p2pool was unfixably slow.
BingoBoingo: hmmm
BingoBoingo: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Software#Mining_Pool_Servers_.28backend.29 << List not inspiring confidence
assbot: Software - Bitcoin Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1PoE5ZR )
shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367122 <<< /me would certainly try to obtain miners to mine on a #b-a pool
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 00:59:53; mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe all this "soft-fork" bullshit is really a good opportunity to start a #b-a mining pool.
mircea_popescu: shinohai a few people have asked, which is why i said.
shinohai: It would be handy to mine own tx's but would require considerable hashpower, no?
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 392907 | Current Difficulty: 1.0388034081545589E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 393119 | Next Difficulty In: 212 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 5 hours, 45 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 446.27, vol: 7498.99347541 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 444.001, vol: 6295.41647 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 446.8, vol: 14550.86099406 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 447.226002, vol: 37121.74600000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 447.37, vol: 112.39650116 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 454.453760989, vol: 15.66709175 | Volume-weighted last average: 446.714667061
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7300 @ 0.00051688 = 3.7732 BTC [+]
mod6: ftr: im still laughing about kako's buddy who needed the condoms in thailand
shinohai: Good to have friends that will ship you rubbers just like that when necessary.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33732 @ 0.00050901 = 17.1699 BTC [-] {5}
mod6: ikr, solid guy
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367138 << well, of the hash rate ~forever~
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 01:13:37; mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
asciilifeform: at a given time.
asciilifeform: else you slip.
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: and it being a random process, "guarantee" is necessarily an average sort of concept.
asciilifeform: aha
ben_vulpes: kilo-log-line day, huh?
mircea_popescu: good stuff.
ben_vulpes: i caught snippets over the oar, looking forward to it.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366272 << whattabout the pronounceable mnemonic hashes a la urbit?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:56:49; mircea_popescu: yes, naming can work like that, if 8chan.co and 94875984375983.jksldak are the same to you.
ben_vulpes: fantub tasslyb or what was it
mircea_popescu: and let me guess, you'll get them from... hets ?
ben_vulpes wonders if his destroyer still floats
ben_vulpes: hets?
assbot: Logged on 08-05-2015 01:24:40; assbot: dpaste: 2E0CYZQ: Speakables ... ( http://bit.ly/1dR5Y1j )
asciilifeform: pretty useless
asciilifeform: ^ my implementation of mr. mold's early syllables
asciilifeform: (he changed them out later)
ben_vulpes: why useless? and changed to?
asciilifeform: some others
asciilifeform: and useless in that i never found a serious use for it
ben_vulpes: ;;rated gernika
gribble: You have not yet rated user gernika
ben_vulpes: mwell i owe ya one
ben_vulpes: mhm
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00051688 = 5.7891 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366337 << eve, but with btc, and on an island not in space
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 15:21:54; copypaste: i very much love the concept of a 3d game with a bitcoin economy. i've played a few, but all poorly done.
mircea_popescu: nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's.
ben_vulpes: in the sense of a game that is most effectively played with spreadsheets.
mircea_popescu: the "spreadsheets in space" thing referred to how its graphics/engine is absent,
mircea_popescu: not to how you play it.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's. << And a problem where some things had absolutely no market anywhere, like slaves.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes sure.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu even got suicide ganked once
mircea_popescu: lol
BingoBoingo: He was mining in his little pickup truck with a new recruit and then he got FOOF'd
mircea_popescu: yeah hey bb weren't you in 1btc ?
BingoBoingo: Yeah
mircea_popescu: how come you're not euloring ?!
BingoBoingo: Newsing is awfully time consuming.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the bitcoin eve society had like... a space station fully built and i dun remember how many of the not-titan class ships, a dozen or some shit
BingoBoingo: The things I have to see
mircea_popescu: but the game is incredibly boring.
BingoBoingo: The fucking "jumps" were the worst part of hauling
ben_vulpes: sinfully boring.
mircea_popescu: in tyhe end i was using that society, what was their name
ben_vulpes: and the mega-pvp, even worse.
mircea_popescu: i think i had them haul 5 bn worth of isk in 10-20mn installments
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34800 @ 0.00051688 = 17.9874 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but i do recall BingoBoingo did a bunch of hauls in one of those what were they called ? obelisk ?
BingoBoingo: Nah the smaller thing. By the time I trained to the obelisk is about when I bored out of eve. Fucking jumps
mircea_popescu: aha
BingoBoingo: The prospect of locking up CPU time for 8 hour autopilot runs + normal Jita lag was too much
mircea_popescu: anyway, iirc what we did was, we had a full space station that produced fuel
ben_vulpes: time based skilling, bleh.
mircea_popescu: and fuel was in high demand so we bought some precursors from jita and sold the fuel to the people in low sec
mircea_popescu: that and some worm hole digging, i recall going with hanbot
BingoBoingo: time based skilling was nbd
mircea_popescu: and with that other chick, what was her name
mircea_popescu: dude how long ago was this ? 2012 ? 13 ?
BingoBoingo: 2013
ben_vulpes: dang.
mircea_popescu: feels like 30 fucking years, i reemember it as from under a concrete slab.
BingoBoingo: Summer 2013. After I'd visited here and before I was sitting here full time
mircea_popescu: i remember we kinda had enough of the shit at the same time and that guy, what's his name, the accountant guy ended up inheriting it all
mircea_popescu: smickles, that's right!
ben_vulpes: holy shit smickles
mircea_popescu: ;;seen smickles
gribble: smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 30 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <smickles> easily a few more bil in things like BPOs and BPCs
ben_vulpes: ;;seen smickles
gribble: smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 30 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <smickles> easily a few more bil in things like BPOs and BPCs
mircea_popescu: HA!
BingoBoingo: Ah, I missed that part
mircea_popescu: yeah cuz we had a fully researched or whatever it was ? bp to make that battleship
mircea_popescu: the good one.
BingoBoingo: Even jurov got sucked into it with the S.MPOE/1BTC share convertability
mircea_popescu: that alone was like 1bn then. prolly 15 bn by now lol
mircea_popescu: a yeah.
BingoBoingo: Inflation is a hell of a drug
asciilifeform: https://cryptome.org/2016-info/nk-hwasong-gulag/nk-hwasong-gulag.htm << gotta love how usg names roads 'for them'
assbot: North Korea Hwasong Gulag ... ( http://bit.ly/1IZEky3 )
asciilifeform can't wait for a map of washington made in pyongyang
asciilifeform: with names.
danielpbarron: ben_vulpes> you played trader without spreadsheets? << what is it for? I use strictly txt files in my various Eulora activities
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30673 @ 0.00051044 = 15.6567 BTC [-] {2}
thestringpuller: LOL smickles has only beeng gone a year. I thought it was longer than that.
ben_vulpes: year and thirty weeks
thestringpuller: i see him on steam occassionaly. must have taken early retirement.
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: recalculates values whenever inputs change?
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: has equations in his text files?
danielpbarron: in one called profit.txt yes
asciilifeform: what's in ruin.txt ?
ben_vulpes: haw
danielpbarron: cat: ruin.txt: No such file or directory
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366807 << aheha this from the guy who when looking at a dsl for a rules engine complained "but but what's wrong with the sexprs?!"
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 17:40:46; ascii_butugychag: and i'm not interested in writing word 'nabla' instead of ∇ every time !111
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> what's in ruin.txt ? << Enemies whose char would make suitable black for darkening wizard tower stones
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: wai wut
ben_vulpes: 'tis in the log
asciilifeform: rules engine ?
ben_vulpes: mhm
asciilifeform digs futilely for the thread
ben_vulpes sighs, goes looking as well
ben_vulpes: doubt rules engine made it into the log
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6908 @ 0.00050125 = 3.4626 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: at any rate, the question of sexprs vs infix ('rich syntax', in derp terminology) is orthogonal to '∇ vs nabla' thing
asciilifeform: and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda...
asciilifeform: and the keyboard of a civilized person ~ought to~ have a alt-graph metakey and a λ printed on the front facet of the L.
asciilifeform: and to compare this to the idiot 'smiley' crapolade is lunacy
asciilifeform: shit, shinola. both black, 'spreading works', the similarity ends there.
ben_vulpes: motherfucker
ben_vulpes: where did this come from and where did it go
ben_vulpes: doubt it.
ben_vulpes: memory implies it was a link followed from some acl conference sponsors list.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16400 @ 0.0005035 = 8.2574 BTC [+] {4}
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: can you recall any ?
asciilifeform: i must've slept through this.
asciilifeform: as did assbot.
ben_vulpes: bah.
ben_vulpes: i've been digging, but the line's not showing in the logs.
ben_vulpes: not even searching for from:ben_vulpes asciilifeform http -log.bitcoin-assets.com
ben_vulpes: the sample code had some declarative rules, and your complaint was something along the lines of "why'd they get rid of the parens?!"
asciilifeform: ...
ben_vulpes shrugs
ben_vulpes: 'tis lost.
asciilifeform: let's do a brick-in-your-face-obvious illustrative case.
asciilifeform: λf. (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))
asciilifeform: vs
asciilifeform: lambda f. (lambda x. f (x x))(lambda x. f (x x))
asciilifeform: now WHICH ONE IS READABLE
mircea_popescu: the latter.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu speaks like a fella who never has to.
asciilifeform: has to any of it.
mircea_popescu: look... i read what i read. what do you want from me ?
asciilifeform: idk, get out old notebook from school, and see how many pages it'd take you to ~unambiguously~ and ~rigorously~ english-verbalize, e.g., green's theorem ?
mircea_popescu: in 6th or 7th grade at some point i discovered sums and the sigma. i was enchanted for about a year. throughout highschool i just wrote them out.
mircea_popescu: because it seriously is no fucking gain.
asciilifeform: and when you have 11 of them nested ?
asciilifeform: also wrote out ?
mircea_popescu: besides the fact that it paginates poorly.
mircea_popescu: if you have 11 nested you fucked something up.
asciilifeform: mno.
asciilifeform: then you're writing a graphics engine, mayhap
mircea_popescu: look : if you have 11 sums nested you fucked something up.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13750 @ 0.0005086 = 6.9933 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: what next, if i need to define an operator i also fucked up ?
asciilifeform: or to use more than 26 variables ?
mircea_popescu: just define whatever the fuck and work on one sum at a fucking time already.
mircea_popescu: if i see void alfun (1, 2, 3, 4 .. 26); ima think you can't code.
asciilifeform: who said code.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu didntcha do peano, frege, et al? how did you manage with 26 letters ?
mircea_popescu: by looking at parts at a time!
asciilifeform: we ran through all of latin, greek, went through much of hebrew on one chalkboardfull
mircea_popescu: the conceptual equivalent of writing fucking subroutines you nut you.
asciilifeform: reusing letters in 1 proof
asciilifeform: is like reusing
asciilifeform: toilet paper.
asciilifeform: during the course of ONE SHIT.
asciilifeform: even.
asciilifeform: washing it, yes.
mircea_popescu: dude get out. there's 7 bn people alive today, not to mention historically, and you think having twenty or a hundred slices of tp makes a difference ?
mircea_popescu: they're all equally dirty anyway.
asciilifeform: typically the only way any of it makes a difference to me is between grasping and not-grasping a thing.
mircea_popescu: well so fine, have at!
mircea_popescu: i'm not telling you how to grasp things, you're the one that keeps going "no true scotsman would go around without a parasol" or w/e.
asciilifeform: mno
mircea_popescu: be the scotsman with a parasol, what do i care.
asciilifeform: my position was 'maths can only adequately happen on a graphical terminal'
mircea_popescu: this is a self-ridiculing proposition.
asciilifeform: relatedly, i spend a great deal of time in uni maths library. to this day. and every so often i end up picking up a thing that was typeset on the cheap, in the dark ages, using typewriter
asciilifeform: EVEN THERE folks laboured to ascii-art the sigmas etc.
asciilifeform: inked in the integral signs.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
mircea_popescu: yeah i had a raft of that retarded shit too
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: machine written for text and then hand drawn for symbolics
asciilifeform: didja ever walk up to the author, and ask 'why didntcha do plain text like euclid'
mircea_popescu: i don't remember any of it. nobody does, people who wrote it included.
mircea_popescu: yes, actually. i generally said this si fucking stupid and you people suck.
asciilifeform: aha but generally
asciilifeform: or what, mircea_popescu would've stayed in mathematics if not for the squigglies
mircea_popescu: there's plenty of squigglies in physics too. i never much cared.
mircea_popescu: there's no particular boon to understanding to be had from squiggling.
asciilifeform: it isn't about magical force of squiggle, but elementarily FITTING A THING ON A PAGE that would not otherwise fit in one eyeful.
mircea_popescu: my brain doesn't work by thje eyefull iom not a fucking toad omfg
asciilifeform: and if your working memory is titanic and you laugh, all that is needed is to come up with an example that straddles the line ~for you~
mircea_popescu: do you think i presently notated the merchant of venice so 3555 liunes fit in one page ?
asciilifeform: just like you can brag about being a muscle man, but i can always fill a knapsack that you cannot move with, so you cannot say 'it does not matter what a knapsack weighs!111'
asciilifeform: merchant of venice != theorem
mircea_popescu: and you're gonna paint it red and fix it ?
mircea_popescu: because why!
asciilifeform: same basic idea as cpu cache
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as fits-in-head
mircea_popescu: i'm not a fucking cpu.
mircea_popescu: yes, and your option is to either do a retarded sort of implicity tree by using hyeroglyphicd
asciilifeform: just like everybody;s.
mircea_popescu: or else make the thing plain text and sort it in your head like a functioning brain already.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6285 @ 0.00051687 = 3.2485 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu posts the plaintext rigorous green's theorem, i promise to read it..
mircea_popescu: you people.
mircea_popescu: that dude goes hey, rewrite this chunk of the english cannon, it is broken
mircea_popescu: then you with this
mircea_popescu: what do you think i am, a race horse ?
asciilifeform: l0lz
asciilifeform: if i have to be shiva, mircea_popescu can be a racehorse!111
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9165 @ 0.00051704 = 4.7387 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: half the fucking things i do here each day and every day is exactly that, force people to properly plaintext their shit.
mircea_popescu: and he still wants a proof because the log is not here or something
asciilifeform: speaking of this & earlier thread, a treatise on 'v' philosophy is definitely a necessary thing
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: i tried to write it, actually, and ran out of juice
asciilifeform: ended up writing v instead
asciilifeform: easier.
mircea_popescu: got any pieces ?
mircea_popescu: i don't see this emerging other than by piecemeal correction, honestly.
asciilifeform: nothing immediately usable. might take another stab at it on the train tomorrow
asciilifeform is watching the scrolling logs from his trb nodez, it is like music, so smooth
asciilifeform: no 'blackholing', etc., any of it.
asciilifeform: (since patch)
mircea_popescu: For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
mircea_popescu: how's that.
asciilifeform finds himself mentally converting this to proper format !11
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: also reminds me of canonical ru kidz rhyme,
asciilifeform: 'Тело, впернутое в воду Выпирает на свободу. С массой выпертой воды Тела, впертого туды!'
asciilifeform: (archimede's law)
mircea_popescu: let me put this another way : the first, the cheapest and most formidable weapon every science teacher has to ferret out the cheat
mircea_popescu: is to hold up a piece of exam paper and say "now explain to me what's in here".
asciilifeform: now this, yes
mircea_popescu: you know this is so. you know it distinguishes the pass from the cheat.
asciilifeform: ought to include even building rubber band model.
mircea_popescu: so then... what are we on about!
asciilifeform: the canonical representation that is to be worked with by a serious user.
asciilifeform: can you picture a computeralgebratron that eats english ?
asciilifeform: that doesn't make user want to eat his pistol ?
mircea_popescu: but this is not the point!
mircea_popescu: i eat it.
mod6: i like the idea that we could have a regular char set, like 127 bit ascii, and do everything from this. and if you need Sigma, its SIG, or LAMBDA, its LMA or Absolute Value, ABS.
mircea_popescu: no fucking way, this isn't how derive worked!!11
mircea_popescu: pssshhhh
asciilifeform: mod6: visit a university library and read the atrocious typewriter manuscripts.
asciilifeform: and weep.
mod6: haha.
mircea_popescu: did you or did youi not type ABS(x dx) in derive until you dropped!
mod6: it just seems like stuff like this works well: <+mircea_popescu> For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure did
mod6: and then when it doesn't there's alway some short hand one could do without resorting to unicode or PS.
asciilifeform: mod6: now verbalize a tensor.
mircea_popescu: "a tensor"
asciilifeform: or so much as an ordinary quaternion.
asciilifeform: connection from 186.137.7.31:47303 dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: connection from 62.210.127.113:49725 dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: connection from 186.137.7.31:47307 dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: connection from 62.210.127.113:49726 dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: ^ lulzz
mod6: i dunno? sig = [T(e1)T(e2)T(e3)]
asciilifeform: ahahahaha but not verbal !!
asciilifeform: you used... notation!11
mircea_popescu: and for the record : NO THEOREM, no rule or function or anything in ALL OF MATH can survive without the [usually more important] limits and domain definition.
asciilifeform: aha
mod6: something like that? im not really only saying verbal. im just saying, hey, lets practice safe ascii.
mircea_popescu: i couldn't care less you use sigma or the integral. what matters is the foreword
asciilifeform: there is always chunks we haven't any shorthand for, yes
mircea_popescu: now simbolize "positive oriented curve"
mircea_popescu: so then what the bloody hell.
asciilifeform: verbal dressing is 'part of balanced diet.'
mircea_popescu: pfff
mircea_popescu: the "symbolized" math thing makes kids stupid
mircea_popescu: (they focus on the domain and fail to comprehend the limit. it's how we neded up with the power rangers in the first place.
mircea_popescu: the heresies of barbarians are not accidental, but driven by fundamental stupidities of their culture.)
asciilifeform: they are driven by what the broken pieces are that they find to glue into mosaics, are of.
asciilifeform: whether roman frescoes or 19th c. mathematics.
mircea_popescu: i bet you they all grew up as kids among a herd of wolves worshipping the symbol, never once thinking to make them write it down in words.
mircea_popescu: and then you wonder why idiot anglos have "issues" with word problems.
mircea_popescu: wonder away.
asciilifeform: wai wut
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "a tensor" << haha, i missed this
asciilifeform: 'tenser, said the tensor' (tm) (r) (bester)
mircea_popescu: yeah well ?
asciilifeform: lacan et al made the exact same kind of salad from words
mircea_popescu: not at all.
asciilifeform: as mathemasturbatory abusers from symbols
mircea_popescu: nah, those are just idiots, the lacan troop were actual trolls.
mircea_popescu: guy had a (rather transparent) profit motive.
asciilifeform: takes an expert entomologist to distinguish the result
mircea_popescu: this it does.
mod6: I guess this does actually effect us a bit -- i mean, lets say we wanna do some math modeling or expound upon some properties of something fourier whatever, and send it to the ML... now you gotta have it in ascii otherwise you can't sign it.
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: the reason we spend so much ink on this is that it is in fact the biggest problem we met yet.
asciilifeform: y'know, just because you force the 8th bit of every bt to 0 doesn't make it 'human-readable'
asciilifeform: as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief
asciilifeform: in fact, this is exactly the kind of error that gave us xml
mircea_popescu: you're so far not content with A FINITE ALPHABET!
mircea_popescu: heathen
asciilifeform: finite includes the symbols of cultured men
mircea_popescu: you can't finite the infinite arbitrarily.
mircea_popescu: for all you knwo your kid will come up with novel shit.
asciilifeform: eh that's easy
asciilifeform: culture stopped.
mircea_popescu: pfff
asciilifeform: but in point of fact glyphs ought to work like amiga .MOD music file format.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm not prepared for this matter to get a ruling.
mircea_popescu: much further argument must yet be heard.
asciilifeform: i.e. you would embed the glyph, if it is a non-traditional one, and represented as an s-expr driving a vectorizer
asciilifeform: in a logical way
mircea_popescu: "as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief"
asciilifeform: (in .MOD, instrument patches are part of the file)
asciilifeform: i'm half-convinced that naggum painfully killed himself to pay for xml.
mircea_popescu: they tried the same sleigh of hand, basically. "oh, driving a vectorizer in a logical way"
mircea_popescu: how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove.
mircea_popescu: in a logical way.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: thing is, anything the xml folks did was doomed to be an act of retardation. because they ~were~ the wrong people.
asciilifeform: the wrong people had a seat at the table.
mircea_popescu: ya im sure you're special.
mircea_popescu: the secret to winning the war isn't to make the other motherfucker die for his country. it's to discourage this motherfucking from thinking he can walk up the wall.
asciilifeform: it was a classical 'committee' thing.
mircea_popescu: so it was.
mircea_popescu: it'd have failed even more miserably if god himself sat with budhha and fucked the actual shiva on that very table.
asciilifeform: the whole xml (actually sgml, the root of the disease) crock of shit was fundamentally an intellectual crime in that it set out by pretending that sexpr did not exist, that lisp never happened
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove. << haha
asciilifeform: and 'reasoned' from there
asciilifeform: and bloviating louts got to 'solve' the 'problem'
asciilifeform: in the now very familiar usgtronic sense.
mircea_popescu: they did all sorts of stupid shit, but again, the whole "a wizard did it, to a vectorizer, logically" is enough to sink that ship.
mircea_popescu: everyone always wanting to have jets.
asciilifeform: 'truetype', the thing that made the adobe partners rich, was actually this
asciilifeform: and it worked.
gribble: Project Zero: One font vulnerability to rule them all #1: Introducing ...: <http://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2015/07/one-font-vulnerability-to-rule-them-all.html>; Microsoft Windows TrueType Font parsing zero-day vulnerability ...: <http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/microsoft-windows-truetype-font-parsing-zero-day-vulnerability-used-limited-attacks>; Recent Zero-Day (1 more message)
asciilifeform: you are actually looking at it right now.
asciilifeform: exploitability does not drop from the sky, no.
phf: could be looking at bdf/pcf
asciilifeform: i can write an exploitable calculator, what of it.
mircea_popescu: ima give this theory a very cautious maybe.
asciilifeform: incidentally, sgml was ibm grasping for a relevance toehold
asciilifeform: knowing that it Musted Die
asciilifeform: searched for a way to sink a claw into the living.
asciilifeform: like any proper кощей.
asciilifeform: ibm cavorted in a 'lisp never happened' parallel universe for a loooong time.
asciilifeform: arguably, even NOW.
asciilifeform: and the bloody mess worked as a magnet for ten thousand insect men
asciilifeform: fond of 'libraryizing', categorizing, classifying, filing and misfiling.
asciilifeform: see, e.g., RDF/
asciilifeform: OWL.
asciilifeform: these buggers ~won~, in the sense of extinguishing all life in anything they touched.
mircea_popescu: eh, life managed to extinguish itself on its very own well enough.
trinque: asciilifeform │ and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda... << with this I have no problem at all.
trinque: :( but I am enjoying it!
phf: apropos i like how cl does it, there's a set of characters that are predefined to be standard and portable, and it's basically an mp set: alphabet, digits, top row, handful of controls like newline. each character has a numeric code and a verbose name #\a #\b #\space #\newline. there's a handful of predicates that let you query characters basic nature, upcasep/downcasep/whitespacep. that's it. an implementation though can choose to
phf: include any number of extra characters, say code 120 #\lambda, and also decide how it wants to present them to console/file (say, by writing unicode, or letting user choose the encoding). so a maxima machine can have a set of mathematical symbols for there and then, but not with any sort of claim to univesality.
asciilifeform: phf: iirc originally standard was to understand what glyphs are
asciilifeform: it is how character became a distinct type
asciilifeform: non-interchangeable with numerics
asciilifeform: note ^
asciilifeform: but it was nixed, because folks other than symbolics were allowed to have their tard-say
asciilifeform: and so the result was, as always is from committee, a chimera.
mircea_popescu: wait, wut ?
assbot: 13. Characters ... ( http://bit.ly/1UKQpaV )
mircea_popescu: "In general, characters in Common Lisp are not true objects; eq cannot be counted upon to operate on them reliably. In particular, it is possible that the expression
mircea_popescu: (let ((x z) (y z)) (eq x y))
mircea_popescu: may be false rather than true, if the value of z is a character."
mircea_popescu: oh get the fuck out.
asciilifeform: 'Each character code is composed from a character script and a character label. The convention by which a character script and character label compose a character code is implementation dependent. [X3J13 did not approve all parts of the proposal from its Subcommittee on Characters. As a result, some features that were approved appear to have no purpose.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is CORRECT
mircea_popescu: correct to what.
asciilifeform: and it is a preemptive and permanent cure for the unicode retardation.
asciilifeform: characters as a distinct animal from numerics.
mircea_popescu: and how do i search ?
assbot: CLHS: Function SEARCH ... ( http://bit.ly/1UKQBa8 )
mircea_popescu: "The implementation may choose to search sequence-2 in any order; there is no guarantee on the number of times the test is made."
mircea_popescu: what ?
asciilifeform: you can search any set of anything for which equality is defined!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was a warning not to attach side effects to the act of comparison
mircea_popescu: who the fuck writes code like this.
asciilifeform: (who would? i've nfi)
asciilifeform: but, as when reading a municipal fire code,
asciilifeform: know that ~somebody~ must have.
mircea_popescu: dude if you imagine it is acceptable for me to sit here looking at two strings AND NOT KNOW exactly what the machine will do if i tell it to search
mircea_popescu: you're from another universe.
asciilifeform: the machine will compare every element to your search item.
asciilifeform: what part of this is a mega-mystery.
mircea_popescu: does it bubblesort ?
asciilifeform: this is not implicit in the act of searching
asciilifeform: on any system
mircea_popescu: i wish to know wtf it does omg.
asciilifeform: by default, it starts from beginning and iterates, comparing each thing, until finds or until runs out of thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10831 @ 0.00050125 = 5.429 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: this is how search on an unsorted list works anywhere in the universe
mircea_popescu: iterates ? what, by one item ?
asciilifeform: how else
mircea_popescu: no, this is not how search works "anywhere" in the universe.
asciilifeform: i get it, mircea_popescu wants boyer-moore
asciilifeform: etc
mircea_popescu: the bit discussing the cheating involved in the asm translation of search in c was added to the log about a year ago
mircea_popescu: recall it ?
asciilifeform: nope
mircea_popescu: well now ima gonna have to search won't i ;/
mircea_popescu: the idea was that it sacrificed outlier cases to get a better performance curve geared towards more common cases
mircea_popescu: by jumping the index, smashing stacks and doing all sorts of shenanigans.
phf: asciilifeform: i think numerics is a truly dodgy tradeoff. it took me until quite recently to grok that "character code == ascii" or "character code == unicode codepoint" are not the only two possible interpretations.
asciilifeform: phf: and yet one still finds people arithmetizing on characters, thinking that they are doing nothing wrong, then wondering why unicode is retarded and anything involving it is a crock of shit where so much as a fart runs in O(N) at best
mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say.
mircea_popescu: "As an example, table 13-1 shows the character labels, graphic symbols, and character descriptions for all of the characters in the repertoire standard-char except for #\Space and #\Newline."
mircea_popescu: what is # ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pound-quote
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00050125 = 5.0626 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: mno. if we read the very table referenced, we find
mircea_popescu: SM01 # number sign
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is an in-band magic sequence denoting a named character
mircea_popescu: so apparently characters are introduced by ... an escape sequence (lol)... which happens to be... NUMBER SIGN ?
mircea_popescu: is this deliberately self-mocking humour ?
asciilifeform: it's what grew on the keyboard.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't make you lol ?
asciilifeform: could've just as easily been a ^
mircea_popescu: but it isn't.
mircea_popescu: so characters ARE numbers, aite ?
asciilifeform: only in the sense everything else on the machine is.
asciilifeform: BUT they are not a ring.
mircea_popescu: no, in the sense that they are specifically labelled thus with a label specifically made to label numbers.
asciilifeform: mno.
asciilifeform: they are not a ring.
asciilifeform: and they are not ordered.
mircea_popescu: right, "|they could have also called it penis sign"
mircea_popescu: they aren't ordered ? so "a" > "b" returns undefined ?
asciilifeform: returns whatever satan prepared for this sinful occasion, yes.
mircea_popescu: but this is blatantly not how the alphabet goes.
mircea_popescu: a comes before b.
phf: mircea_popescu: file:///Users/pf/Desktop/documentation/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm
phf: err
mircea_popescu: lol ty .
asciilifeform: * (> #\b #\a)
asciilifeform: debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread
asciilifeform: The value #\b is not of type NUMBER.
phf: hehe, where do people normally get this shit from???
asciilifeform: ^ sbcl 1.1.6
asciilifeform: phf: l0l!! everybody has this problem, aha
phf: mircea_popescu: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm
assbot: CLHS: Section 13.1.6 ... ( http://bit.ly/1SL6EGi )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so is there a special function to inquire which of two comes before in the alphabet ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is NOT a 'the alphabet' in the cl standard !
mircea_popescu: "Of the standard characters, those which are alphanumeric obey the following partial ordering:"
mircea_popescu: this shit's so retarded...
mircea_popescu: partial ordering ? rly ?
asciilifeform: the committee could not and did not, afaik, remotely contemplate attempting to invent unicode or similar.
mircea_popescu: so if i sort a file containing a bunch of words, i do not know if i should look for ___stuff at the end or beginning or scattered anywhere.
mircea_popescu: who comes up with this shit ?
asciilifeform: and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects.
asciilifeform: asking what 'A' + 'B' is equal to,
asciilifeform: is talking-to-the-stove.
asciilifeform: while drinking benzene by the litre.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, sorting lists of words is the most basic, primary, entrly level task for any scribe.
mircea_popescu: and i should not be surprised, lest the scribe gets her ass colored.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can trivially define a partial ordering when sorting
mircea_popescu: i can also trivially define the new location of washington dc.
asciilifeform: but have to ~explicitly~ do it
asciilifeform: hey it could mov
asciilifeform: like ulab batur !!11
asciilifeform: *ulan
mircea_popescu: the fucking point of having an alphabet is that no, it couldn't move.
asciilifeform: kept movin' till, when, 20th c?
asciilifeform: ru alphabet moved plenty
mircea_popescu: and no, i won't be looking for the beatles records past the why records.
mircea_popescu: yes but ru are idiots.
phf: mircea_popescu: wait, partial ordering in this case means that alphabet is ordered. it's meaningless things like "is _ greater then a" that are not defined
asciilifeform: and the latin christendom, clever ?
mircea_popescu: phf and if idiots make functions going ___function where in the ordered list do i look for them ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's besides the point :D
asciilifeform: incidentally, was anybody else cruelly shocked as a kid when discovering that the 8th-bit upper 'ansi' character of msdos is NOT standardized ?
asciilifeform: and failing to find it on one's first unix box.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects. << What would Terry Davis say about this?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: why not ask him ?
asciilifeform: iirc he's findable
BingoBoingo: Not full of benzene
BingoBoingo: findable yes, predictable output???
phf: mircea_popescu: there are parts of standard that are underspecified :)
mircea_popescu: im unimpressed.
asciilifeform: picture if satan lifted his magic wand, and, somehow, mpex and glbse (!) and havel0l, et al, had to ALL sit down and STANDARDIZE the stock exchange ...
phf: the only redeeming quality in this case, that there aren't better standards available, except for maybe Ada (i've not looked). you end up with trade offs, or hard constraints that make the result non-portable. a positive aspect of cl standard is that you get reasonably similar behavior on very wide range of hardware, but i agree that things could always be better
asciilifeform: in a way that doesn't leave the crud exchanges simply going to a pit to die
asciilifeform: because oh noez, they get voicez!11111
asciilifeform: representation!
asciilifeform: this is sorta what happened. symbolics co. had to 'compromise' with the turd vendors
asciilifeform: whose lisps didn't even run on a real graphical console
asciilifeform: (the entire process took place at all, as i gather, because foolishly smbx thought it could finesse the process)
mircea_popescu: and why did they ?\
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with "fuck you, you're childrten, go away. this is the spec."
mircea_popescu: it's after all what mpex did. the children did go away.
mircea_popescu: the "concerned parents" wanna-bes with them.
asciilifeform: because this was not quite it.
asciilifeform: there were multiple licensees of the original mit machine
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have no intention to bake in historical idiocy, and especially not of this ilk.
mircea_popescu: i have had enough seawater in the shape of bitcoin genesis
asciilifeform: (early on, it was not clear that smbx would annihilate the rest)
asciilifeform: much less that it would shortly after, die.
mircea_popescu: depending on who you asked, it was "not clear" that mpex will bury mtgox, let alone bitcoinica.
asciilifeform: was it mircea_popescu who had the article with the giant and his chair ?
mircea_popescu: now that...
mircea_popescu: among many others, im sure.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have nothing against lisp, neither historically nor intellectually. but this is an unsatisfactory notion of an alphabet.
mircea_popescu: while the idea that "letters aren't numbers, sit down" is sound,
mircea_popescu: there's as the romanians say, "mai e mult pina departe". there's a lot to go to far away.
asciilifeform: so is A > α ?
asciilifeform: or not ?
asciilifeform: or do i not get an α ?
mircea_popescu: pick one.
mircea_popescu: also, do you get two A's ?
mircea_popescu: because capital alpha is A.
asciilifeform: and how about ∀ ?
mircea_popescu: you actually aim to use a dword for the alphabet encoding ?
asciilifeform: this is not implicit in the question, is it
mircea_popescu: suppose you limit yourself to a hundred or so of these.
mircea_popescu: that way i can look at a piece of paper with them
mircea_popescu: mno, i am merely in the habit of having a mendelev table on my fucking wall.
mircea_popescu: nature makes do with a hundred or so. you're better ?
asciilifeform: what if i said that α ought to live as an s-expr equalling (low (greek 0)) ?
mircea_popescu: is that tetha ?
asciilifeform: zero
mircea_popescu: uh
asciilifeform: (this is not a notation on any existing system, i invented it)
mircea_popescu: so you're going to just have indexes ?
asciilifeform: it has useful semantic structure
mircea_popescu: isn't this contrary to everything you been saying to date ?
asciilifeform: and is operable
asciilifeform: e.g., i can turn it into an aleph
asciilifeform: or an upper-case
mircea_popescu: why specifically "low".
asciilifeform: indices make sense ~where defined~
mircea_popescu: why not (cool(aromatic(1))
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because buncha medieval bozos decided they like small/big letter
asciilifeform: because these are not meaningfully-toggleable properties of a character ?
asciilifeform: break the thing into its proper subatomics.
mircea_popescu: so do we have the complete set of "meaningfully-toggleable properties" of characters set in stone ?
asciilifeform: at least for the chars a cultured man might use
mircea_popescu: is greek low 0 equal to low greek 0 ?
phf: welcome to unicode land
asciilifeform: either true or an error and the machine kicks you for asking
asciilifeform: pick.
mircea_popescu: phf which is why i said, it's contrary to everything he was saying.
asciilifeform: i don't see how.
asciilifeform: unicode is an idiot ordering of EVERYTHING
mircea_popescu: what's the uppercase of integral sign ?
asciilifeform: itself.
mircea_popescu: what's the lowercase of the sum sign ?
asciilifeform: (if you ask for uppercase(.......) for any .... that includes such a sign, what do you expect to see ?
asciilifeform: same.
asciilifeform: this is, again, consistent with sanity
mircea_popescu: what happened to σ ?
mircea_popescu: and for that matter ς ?
asciilifeform: and you would set fire to a machine that behaved otherwise!
mircea_popescu: (yes, greek sigma has two lowercases!)
asciilifeform: they oughta be separate chars in alphabet then
asciilifeform: if one must have'em both.
mircea_popescu: but what of low ?
mircea_popescu: low 1 0 ?
mircea_popescu: well... tenser, said the tensor σ!
asciilifeform: l0l!!1
mod6: hah
mircea_popescu: also, iirc ς is worth 200 in greek
asciilifeform wonders if there are folks reading this on ascii terminals going 'wut'
mircea_popescu: so logically, the tensor is the lowercase of the sum, and it's equal to two Cs
mircea_popescu: i think we're close to a math breakthrough here.
asciilifeform: now all we need is some meta-lsd to inject straight into my eyeball
asciilifeform: so i can grasp.
mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
asciilifeform: connection from 186.137.7.31:48104 dropped (banned) << that banlist thing needs massage: why can same bugger come back 4x within the hour??!!
asciilifeform: on both boxes, no less
mircea_popescu: well do you actuallty ban or just bitcoind
asciilifeform: the latter
mircea_popescu: oh, how endearing.
asciilifeform: ah iirc this is 'attempted connect'
mircea_popescu: you think this shit works ? what are you, new ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what do you have in yours, a shell callout to iptables ?!1
asciilifeform: ick
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
asciilifeform: and we barfed over nss!11
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
trinque: gun to fire today, gun to fire tomorrow.
asciilifeform: i've always wanted a '/dev/banhammer'
asciilifeform: echo p.q.r.s > /dev/fuckyou
asciilifeform: what happened to yoooooooneeex filoooosophy!111
asciilifeform: simplicity.
mircea_popescu: this is not a bad idea
mircea_popescu: /dev/ded
phf: there's probably /dev/ban on plan9
trinque: socat is capable of such an abomination pretty easily
asciilifeform: phf: quite likely!
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367736 << btw lisp world actually is equipped to answer this in a non-retarded way:
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 04:30:11; mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
asciilifeform: they are 'eq' but not 'equal'.
mircea_popescu: i don't see why you think this answer is not retarded.
asciilifeform: because these are useful notions?
asciilifeform: that i use every motherfuckin day?
mircea_popescu: Tubro, the fat Panamanian God of Money is a useful notion
asciilifeform: on my desk, two sheets of paper inscribed with the word 'alas' -
asciilifeform: are eq
asciilifeform: but not equal
mircea_popescu: should it be in the lisp "repertoire" too ?
asciilifeform: because they are not the SAME sheet
asciilifeform: you see no difference between this and a random piece of excreta ?
mircea_popescu: there is no actual meaning to proposing Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-sum and Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-plotin are somehow different in the "eq" manner but similar in the "equal" manner.
asciilifeform: if all you get is a Σ on paper - then, no
mircea_popescu: a sign is a sign.
asciilifeform: but mapping is not 1 to 1.
mircea_popescu: it carries no meaning.
mircea_popescu: attempting to make the sign carry your guts is not going to result in a functioning computer.
asciilifeform: which is why we don't
mircea_popescu: apparently we just think we don't.
asciilifeform: as in the mircea_popescu> because capital alpha is A. example,
asciilifeform: two different objects can render to same glyph
phf: mircea_popescu: this a hypothetical mechanism you guys are discussing. this is not actually in lisp
asciilifeform: because life suxx etc
mircea_popescu: phf i know.
mircea_popescu: but i think it's very instructive because i suspect we're uncovering a psychotron here.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not a matter of "glyph". A actually is both.
mircea_popescu: it'[s not that "my girlfriendf" and "his wife" all "look like the same woman"
mircea_popescu: you're fucking the same woman.
assbot: CLHS: Function EQ ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDnx )
assbot: CLHS: Function EQUAL ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDnF )
assbot: CLHS: Function EQL ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDUC )
assbot: CLHS: Function BIT-AND, BIT-ANDC1, BIT-ANDC2... ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDnJ )
assbot: CLHS: Function =, /=, <, >, <=, >= ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDUE )
phf: i think if my lisp rendered same character but claimed that they are not char=, i would be very unhappy
asciilifeform: is quite certainly in lisp.
asciilifeform: phf: apparently you don't greek enough...
mircea_popescu: phf well if you have this tag-and-glyph duality you're wide fucking open to the issue.
phf: you can't make any statements about chars using eq. eq is a special beast used to test ~von neumann~ identity. and all the comments in the spec are related to that. sometimes (eq 1 1) but (eq 123123 123123) is not
phf: it's a totally technical low level detail for explicitly managing your memory, and speeding up operations
phf: you can expect eq to compile to some asm level equality procedure
mircea_popescu: or in a less charitable view, it's a half assed attempt to hand-gcc.
phf: bringing this into char discussion makes no sense whatsoever because spec explicitly says you can't
phf: mircea_popescu: correct
asciilifeform: phf: my point was to illustrate the notion of meaningfully different concepts of equality-predicate
mircea_popescu: it didn't work.
asciilifeform: only a subset of which sanely applicable to characters
asciilifeform: fact is, a system which tries to pretend that it makes sense to ask what A + ∀ is equal to, or even whether A > ∀, makes no more sense than one which tries to define the mass of the colour purple.
asciilifeform: one which lets you programmatically specify an operation which yields A when given an ∀, is marginally saner
asciilifeform: but in point of fact this actually reduces to the naming problem !
asciilifeform: from this morning !
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:49:26; mircea_popescu: naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it.
asciilifeform: arguably 'how to draw an alpha' is a a name-problem question
asciilifeform: as is the answer to arbitrary crapolade, e.g., whether A > ∀.
asciilifeform: what would make sense is for folks plugged into a mircea_popescutron to get the requisite answer when they ask it
asciilifeform: see my ancient idiocy, http://kyristor.com
assbot: kyristor ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnKvZl )
asciilifeform to bed.
mircea_popescu: at the rate this discussion is going, the alt-"lisp" will need a pun function which tells you if the string was used in pun.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6950 @ 0.00050643 = 3.5197 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but as far the machine is concerned, there is no difference between sum-sigma and letter-sigma. nor any meaning to any symbol. and so the whole "oh we gotta have universal quantifier as a symbol" is to my eyes an exercise of naming the function "understanding" so as to get ai.
mircea_popescu: the computer ain't working any better because it "knows" supposedly that ∀. and neither is anything else.
mircea_popescu: you can say "for any x" just as well as you can say " ∀ x".
mircea_popescu: "∀ x ∈ R ∃! y ∈ R ∋ x + y = 0" offers exactly no benefit over "for any real number there exists another real number so that the two add to 0".
mircea_popescu: not even of the "impress chicks" variety.
mircea_popescu: there IS however a fucking marked cost. and it's of the "how do we make colored unicode people" type.
phf: i will support cyrillic in my lisp,\ only because,\ it was used to write by lenin --mayakovsky
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm off. laters!
trinque: mircea_popescu │ "∀ x ∈ R ∃! y ∈ R ∋ x + y = 0" offers exactly no benefit over "for any real number there exists another real number so that the two add to 0". << ftr I am precisely the african that would benefit from the math textbook written in *only* this manner.
trinque: why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00050643 = 1.8738 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: she had logs for days
punkman: good morning pete
pete_dushenski: good evening punk :)
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367722 << and it looks super weird if you use the wrong one
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 04:27:01; mircea_popescu: (yes, greek sigma has two lowercases!)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00050473 = 4.164 BTC [-] {2}
pete_dushenski: "GM has put a 60-kWh lithium-ion battery that weighs just just 960 pounds into the floor of the Bolt. As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge. That full charge takes nine hours on a Level 2 EVSE thanks to the onboard 7.2-kW charger. Of course, a full charge won't be that important most days, which is why GM says that you can get 50 miles of range in "less
pete_dushenski: than two hours" on Level 2" << numbers for (playing) Bingo(Boingo)
punkman: and it does happen that something was uppercase and shitty software lowercases the sigma wrong
punkman: even if you hate the Unicode folks, they have actually codified a lot of these things and it mostly seems to work
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00050283 = 10.9114 BTC [-] {2}
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366094 << the internet knows no limits !
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 06:36:31; BingoBoingo: copypaste: I suspect the reason you dislike pete_dushenski aping trilema is he comes from boring Canada and his cool factor and empire potential are limited by that.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Face it. Canada impaired your maximum potential to be interesting at this time.
pete_dushenski: yes, i shoulda been born in riyyad
punkman: you just need to kill more people pete_dushenski
BingoBoingo: Or move to Cameroon, or Cambodia
pete_dushenski: punkman: if only to balance the life i'm adding to the planet.
punkman: "carbon neutral" !
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: at least i don't live under clitler (if still natoreich)
pete_dushenski: punkman: i'm a greenie like that, what can i say
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: the kid knows his ashtanga from his saatva and not a lot besides. trudeau's as innocent as a butterfly, which is why chix dig him and dudes couldn't care less. he's nowhere near as much of a strong retard as the commie premier cunt running alberta for the next 3.5 years
BingoBoingo: You could give oregon or nevada a try
pete_dushenski: though in all seriousness, if the dumb bitches pretending to be 'drop-in daycares' and 'nannies' don't start returning phone calls and text in a timely manner, IF AT ALL, i'm a seriously cut their useless lives short.
pete_dushenski: some fat needs to be trimmed around here, whether that idjits going back to wherever the fuck they came from (ftr no one is "from" alberta) or they can learn that business isn't this thing where money and clients rain down from the sky and it's all you can do to beat them back at the door
punkman: http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1231.html they are catching on
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: you could try iqaluit too. nice and quiet there.
deedbot-: [Qntra] Intel Skylake Brings Optimized #ROWHAMMER Exploit - http://qntra.net/2016/01/intel-skylake-brings-optimized-rowhammer-exploit/
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Is there and armed insurrection in iqaluit?
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 03:58:23; *: mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say.
assbot: Logged on 29-04-2015 13:25:03; mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected,
deedbot-: [cascadian hacker] The Monotonically-Increasing Fucked-up-ed-ness of Apple Software (or, how to sync your contacts to the iPhone without exhuming Steve Himself) - http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2016/01/11_the-monotonically-increasing-fucked-up-ed-ness-of-apple-software-or-how-to-sync-your-contacts-to-the-iphone-without-exhuming-steve-himself.html
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: aha. an update from the glitzy trenches. cheers
punkman: BingoBoingo: "In spite of supposing" maybe "expectations"
BingoBoingo: punkman: fxd to "marketing
punkman: heh
pete_dushenski: "(no, not using an iPhone of the most recent vintage is not an option)" << because ?
pete_dushenski: if 5, why not 6 ?
pete_dushenski: "For all that it appears to be a JS abomination running on the iPhone, the Google Mail application routinely trounces the Apple Mail application in searching, rendering, speed, and more or less everything one would want from an email application on the phone." << beats desktop (eg. thunderbird) handily as well. web-gmail just... wins.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: no mention of ios or osx versions in that piece. presumably this matters, no ?
pete_dushenski: i'm probably not the only one who's curious about the software versions
ben_vulpes: if vcard import breaks i want to hear about it.
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjiOGW )
ben_vulpes: but i don't have a comment section, won't.
ben_vulpes: optionality left as exercise.
ben_vulpes did not have wordspace in the above piece to explain the dev entanglement hat-trick steve pulled
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: mega-lol
ben_vulpes: man these greentexts do not even resemble those of my childhood
ben_vulpes: buncha kids
ben_vulpes: my lawn etc
mats: why not just modify 'CLFLUSH' to do the same thing as 'CLFLUSHOPT'
mats: i don't get it, why another instruction
ben_vulpes: nary a walk the dinosaur in sight
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4421 @ 0.00050473 = 2.2314 BTC [+] {2}
pete_dushenski: for my part on the phone-comp sync experiments, i'm pleased to report that the razr syncs like a charm via 10.6 'isync' once contacts are moved from sim storage to phone storage. the catch being that your next phone would also have to sync using 'isync' or else you'll have to switch the contact back to sim storage before changing phones.
pete_dushenski: but since no one else on god's green earth actually uses this set-up, it's probably a moot point
ben_vulpes: my personal phone goal is an engineering team that is on call so that i don't have to have a phone
BingoBoingo: <mats> i don't get it, why another instruction << Because Intel
BingoBoingo: How can Apple buy Skylake for Macbook if not new instructions with -opt appended
mats: also, you misspelled the instruction in qntra piece
BingoBoingo: I left out the L or did I do that and need to capitalize the whole thing?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mats: left out the L
BingoBoingo: fxd
ben_vulpes: whoa whereza trinque
BingoBoingo: Other Skylake lulz if someone (cough, cough, mats) wants to throw together a larger Intel and skylake suck piece http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/01/11/2049209/intel-skylake-bug-causes-pcs-to-freeze-during-complex-workloads
assbot: Intel Skylake Bug Causes PCs To Freeze During Complex Workloads - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjjPyQ )
BingoBoingo: "Prime95, which has historically been used to benchmark and stress-test computers, uses Fast Fourier Transforms to multiply extremely large numbers. A particular exponent size, 14,942,209, has been found to cause the system crashes."
assbot: We saw some really bad Intel CPU bugs in 2015, and we should expect to see more in the future ... ( http://bit.ly/1mRYPSL )
punkman: BingoBoingo: lulzy oregon standoff bits here https://twitter.com/amandapeacher
assbot: Amanda Peacher (@amandapeacher) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjkCQo )
punkman: "County Judge Steve Grasty says he intends to bill Ammon Bundy for $60k to$75k in daily county costs due to occupation."
BingoBoingo: ty punkman
BingoBoingo: In other news Alabama won the National Championship with an onside kick. Anyone looking for the video is advised to find the Russian audio commentators for maximum excitement, Roll Tide.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11750 @ 0.00050787 = 5.9675 BTC [+]
punkman: "Roll Tide is the rallying cry for the Alabama Crimson Tide athletic teams. The trademark to the phrase is claimed by the University of Alabama, with licensing and marketing by The Collegiate Licensing Company."
BingoBoingo: I still have no idea why their mascot is an elephant
punkman: maybe The Collegiate Licensing Company said elephant would sell well
BingoBoingo: Could be?
BingoBoingo: ALSO LOOK AT google breaking the law in the united states by distributing this: https://archive.is/xs37a
assbot: The Royal Bank of Scotland plc - Stabilisation notice | Business Wire ... ( http://bit.ly/1mS10FZ )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00050794 = 8.889 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: !up Tomiii
Tomiii: Hello, does anyone know how you make a bunch of GPG private keys from a single Seed? like you can do with bitcon wallet?
Tomiii: or also, how to make a "brain wallet" for a single GPG privkey, or even a Seed?
assbot: Phidelius: Constructing Asymmetric Keypairs From Mere Passwords For Fun and PAKE | Dan Kaminsky's Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1mS23Wi )
BingoBoingo: That sounds like a very bad idea
deedbot-: [Qntra] RBS Supports Qntra's Dire Predictions For Fiat In 2016 - http://qntra.net/2016/01/rbs-supports-qntras-dire-predictions-for-fiat-in-2016/
Tomiii: BingoBoingo: if you can do it with bitcoin privatekeys, why not GPG keys?
BingoBoingo: Very different kinds of math involved
Tomiii: BingoBoingo: people said the same thing about determinstic wallets in bitcoin (at first), but now they are pretty popular
BingoBoingo: Generating GPG keys that don't suck is hard because RSA encryption is decrypted by division. Too easy to divide, falls. ECDSA in Bitcoin gets more breathing room for now because not as straight forward.
Tomiii: pretty funny that PGP is lagging behind bitcoin, when it had like 30-year head-start
BingoBoingo: It
BingoBoingo: is completley different types of math. Factoring versus elliptics curves involving lines and shit.
BingoBoingo: If one your your GPG key's factors is a low prime like 17 or 23, you're fucked.
Tomiii: BingoBoingo: o i c. so you can do it with ECC keys in GPG 2.1?
BingoBoingo: Why would anyone use GPG2, or ECC when RSA is available
danielpbarron: can I encrypt a message to your bitcoin private key?
BingoBoingo: Tomiii: It should be possible in theory, but why seems iffy.
danielpbarron: "If it's worth upgrading, it wasn't worth using in the first place." (TM)
Tomiii: BingoBoingo: well, determinstic keys, and much smaller keys. possibly as small as a bitcoin address.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26909 @ 0.00050575 = 13.6092 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: Tomiii: here, but probably not a great idea https://github.com/arttukasvio/deterministic
assbot: arttukasvio/deterministic · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1mS2HDa )
Tomiii: BingoBoingo: what are the downsides of ECC in gpg?
BingoBoingo: Tomiii: Well, the general downsides of ECC. At least in Bitcoin the public key isn't even public unless an address has spent a transaction.
BingoBoingo: RSA offers a longer hisotry of being studied and attacked
BingoBoingo: But generally when it comes to keys, HUGE is good
pete_dushenski to rest his weary eyes
BingoBoingo: Note for everyone submitting stories about fiat matters for Qntra in 2016. "Sorry for your loss" is a welcome and encouraged way to end a piece.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25846 @ 0.00051129 = 13.2148 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3230 @ 0.00051207 = 1.654 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: > altcoins
ben_vulpes: what on earth has happened to qntra
ben_vulpes: cazalla went awol
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo went sober
ben_vulpes: jokes through the roof
ben_vulpes: in case its not clear BingoBoingo i'm a fan of your work
ben_vulpes: "fuck it why even try" << motherfucking gold
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8600 @ 0.00050125 = 4.3108 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3100 @ 0.0005072 = 1.5723 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: JosephSWilliams/urcd · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rz31nT )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29200 @ 0.00050447 = 14.7305 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20136 @ 0.00050122 = 10.0926 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00050104 = 6.3632 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13800 @ 0.00050559 = 6.9771 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7050 @ 0.00050024 = 3.5267 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44487 @ 0.00049902 = 22.1999 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17450 @ 0.00049933 = 8.7133 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> RSA offers a longer hisotry of being studied and attacked << more importantly, it actually fits in head. a 12 yo's head.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00050523 = 10.9635 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: ecc has yet to have been fit in any heads.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367965 << this is actually a mega-l0l - a virtually 100% gossipd WITH 100% NSA CRYPTO
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 08:12:29; punkman: https://github.com/JosephSWilliams/urcd
asciilifeform: i woke up and read the docz, almost fell out of bed:
asciilifeform: 'CRYPTO_SECRETBOX is a combination of poly1305 (MAC) and xsalsa20 (stream cipher) that is used to encrypt the URCLINE. The taia96n label, CMD, and random bytes are used as the NONCE, and the secret key is chosen prior to encryption.'
asciilifeform: did not see any reason to read beyond this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lemme say this to you :
mircea_popescu: "pătratul lungimii ipotenuzei este egal cu suma pătratelor catetelor"
mircea_popescu: what did i say ?
asciilifeform: pythagor ?
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: and yes, we know that it worked for the greeks.
mircea_popescu: now what's the symbol for hypotenuse ? or do we not know this exists.
asciilifeform: they were not trying to build 5,000-story towers!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will note THEY ALSO DID NOT NEED TO.
asciilifeform: no symbol because the greeks were not averse to actually drawing the triangle.
asciilifeform: but go and draw a hilbert space.
mircea_popescu: don't idly suppose you're better than the greeks just because you have more maggots eating more cans of spam.
asciilifeform: me - no. gauss - motherfucking yes.
mircea_popescu: gauss wrote his shit out. review the notes.
mircea_popescu: so did newton. so did all of them. so did fucking feynman which is WHY youadmire him
mircea_popescu: not coincidental to the admiration, but integral.
asciilifeform: feynman used standard mathematical notation.
asciilifeform: and yes, explained the basics, he was a teacher !
mircea_popescu: he reads it out half the fucking time
asciilifeform: but note that he did not try 'let's use only ascii for all of mathematics'
mircea_popescu: the difference between a thinking man and a hack is that a hack goes "hey, i can't explain this without a blackboard"
mircea_popescu: he did, yes, but i won't count it because at his time (40s) he had no other options.
asciilifeform: he had the option of typesetting on a 'selectric' and having that go straight to press
mircea_popescu: his work, on the machines, is actually quite lispy. in the ONLY UPPERCASE EXISTS sense of lispy
asciilifeform: as many poor profs did
mircea_popescu: he was an actual researcher.
mircea_popescu: had to run the machines to do things.
asciilifeform: incidentally, serious researchers often ended up doing the selectric-to-web-press thing, on account of sheer hurry
asciilifeform: BUT if the product was any good, it always got redone and typeset properly
asciilifeform: i wouldn't buy an ascii-art edition of feynman.
mircea_popescu: so let it be said : that alphabet can NAME way more things than your symbolics can ever dream to represent. and for that matter, that from the multi-millenarian history of world culture, alphabetic notation does indeed convey richer, more numerous ideas in less space than hyeroglypghics do. which is why we fucked the chinese, and why egypt is muslim now.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> BUT if the product was any good, it always got redone and typeset properly << "if the product were any good it was always mass produced". hurr.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: alphabet != 26 idiot letters
asciilifeform: and most cultures were mathematically zeroes.
asciilifeform: until some folks broke free of the must-verbalize crapolade.
mircea_popescu: looky : neither the egyptians nor the greeks were mathematically zeroes.
mircea_popescu: the alphabetic greeks overtook the hyeroglyphic egyptioans. for this reason and this alone.
mircea_popescu: mujch in the manner europe overtook china.
asciilifeform: i get it, there is a fashion in the derp army of going around and 'i'm a visual thinker!11111'. this changes nothing. there are napoleons in your local loony bin, does not change the historic fact of napoleon.
mircea_popescu: only 2000 years earlier.
mircea_popescu: but so far we doth not even agree on the historical facts
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: neither had effective long division.
asciilifeform: ~on account of notation~, yes.
mircea_popescu: the egyptians had... unusable pi.
asciilifeform: go sail atlantic with pi.
mircea_popescu: long division bitch!
mircea_popescu: words have meanings!
mircea_popescu: even if symbols don't.
asciilifeform bbl, must meet the party's five-year plan
mircea_popescu: 萬里!
mircea_popescu: "the square of the length of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the catheti", for the curious. kids the world over (in those places with an actual culture, as opposed to hunter-gatherer societies of primitives) actually learn this by heart, and it's one of the first steps on the stair they ever meet.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pete_dushenski actually speaking of pankkake, he did resolve http://trilema.com/2014/test-de-cultura-termodinamica/#comment-104245
assbot: Test de cultura termodinamica on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kb0zvM )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13550 @ 0.00049855 = 6.7554 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14077 @ 0.00049819 = 7.013 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367833 << i can't discern which side you're taking.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 05:28:22; trinque: why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway
mircea_popescu: do you mean "this" manner, as in the latter ? or actually "that" manner, as in the former.
mircea_popescu: "f course, a full charge won't be that important most days," << god fucking help them once memory effects and other such things start taking a toll. the full prospect should read " As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge about 20 or so times. Good fucking luck with your new disposable car!"
mircea_popescu: but hey, it ain't fraud if usg does it, right ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367845 << i don't hate the unicode folk. i hate the notion that we'd include all this in the first place. once we decide "we need it", i'd actually prefer unicode to any adhoc herpderping.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 05:51:38; punkman: even if you hate the Unicode folks, they have actually codified a lot of these things and it mostly seems to work
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367861 << heh welcome to post-industrial society.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 06:02:19; pete_dushenski: some fat needs to be trimmed around here, whether that idjits going back to wherever the fuck they came from (ftr no one is "from" alberta) or they can learn that business isn't this thing where money and clients rain down from the sky and it's all you can do to beat them back at the door
mircea_popescu: "i know... we'll offshore everything to china and live off a '''service economy'''. then we won't bother getting off the couch. win-win!"
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 06:04:08; ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367566 << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-04-2015#1115740 ?
mircea_popescu: lol ben_vulpes that shit is so retarded.
mircea_popescu: why even bother with the phone after that ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00049855 = 7.5281 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367880 << eh gtfo. if the police shows up and does anything above and beyond fining the shop for spurious call they're remiss.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 06:12:11; BingoBoingo: https://i.sli.mg/U6151s.jpg
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367895 << o hey check it out, you aspire to be me!
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 06:18:05; ben_vulpes: my personal phone goal is an engineering team that is on call so that i don't have to have a phone
mircea_popescu: "Amanda Peacher @amandapeacher · 11h11 hours ago Burns mayor to Bundys: "Our community does not want you here." Big applause. #Oregonstandoff111 retweets 118 likes " "Amanda Peacher @amandapeacher · 11h11 hours ago Packed house for tonight's community mtg in Burns about the #Oregonstandoff. " << yeah, i'm sure it was packed. all with http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366965
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 19:04:25; mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/0A0WRTM << there, consider that.
mircea_popescu: i have absolutely no idea what these bundy dudes must be thinking to elevate the usg charade into relevancy through participating. but then again... can't trust one to think that's not got a pubkey, can you.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367924 << this is a pretty stupid idea.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 07:01:02; Tomiii: Hello, does anyone know how you make a bunch of GPG private keys from a single Seed? like you can do with bitcon wallet?
mircea_popescu: "In connection with the offer of the above securities, the Stabilising Manager(s) may over-allot the securities or effect transactions with a view to supporting the market price of the securities at a level higher than that which might otherwise prevail. "
mircea_popescu: aaaahahahaha
mircea_popescu: "we're into fraud!"
mircea_popescu: !rated tomiii
assbot: tomiii is not registered in WoT.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367960 << a board meeting decided to make the qntra good.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 07:38:29; ben_vulpes: jokes through the roof
shinohai: !gettrust Tomii
assbot: Tomii is not registered in WoT.
shinohai: >.>
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00050587 = 1.8717 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7187 @ 0.0005072 = 3.6452 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13700 @ 0.00050413 = 6.9066 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1mSPgCV )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2850 @ 0.00050661 = 1.4438 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: am i missing something ?
punkman: probably not
punkman: https://github.com/ssbc/docs another gossipd
assbot: ssbc/docs · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1mSPKsI )
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: 'For private sharing, Scuttlebot uses libsodium to encrypt confidential log-entries.'
ascii_butugychag: ahahahaha
ascii_butugychag: betcha there will be 1,001 usg gossipd.
ascii_butugychag: the folks writing those, are not doing it on the train to/from day job.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "women doing a shitty job fucking are doing it in the bedroom"
mircea_popescu: yes, they are.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368044 << i would much like to attend a concert hall directed by mircea_popescu. understand, just to watch the faces of the musicians when they open their scores and discover, instead of musical notation, 'do re mi.....' x 100,001 !1
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 13:33:54; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367845 << i don't hate the unicode folk. i hate the notion that we'd include all this in the first place. once we decide "we need it", i'd actually prefer unicode to any adhoc herpderping.
mircea_popescu: !up psztorc
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag i direct my concers by frowning.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368042 << li poly batt. has no memory effect. but what it does have is rapid cycle wear (and evens shelf rot)
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 13:32:43; mircea_popescu: "f course, a full charge won't be that important most days," << god fucking help them once memory effects and other such things start taking a toll. the full prospect should read " As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge about 20 or so times. Good fucking luck with your new disposable car!"
mircea_popescu: and if ytou think anyone reads those fucking things while being directed...
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: l0l!11
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 13:58:38; mircea_popescu: i have absolutely no idea what these bundy dudes must be thinking to elevate the usg charade into relevancy through participating. but then again... can't trust one to think that's not got a pubkey, can you.
ascii_butugychag: no pubkey? no soul.
mircea_popescu: "the lord doesn't know of you"
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368063 << wai wut?! srsly? just like that, public confession ?
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 14:01:05; mircea_popescu: "In connection with the offer of the above securities, the Stabilising Manager(s) may over-allot the securities or effect transactions with a view to supporting the market price of the securities at a level higher than that which might otherwise prevail. "
ascii_butugychag: no amount of 'will!11111', virility, non-pencildickery, counts for ~shit~ if you have no soul. beasts of the motherfucking field, the lot of'em.
ascii_butugychag: wild boar builds nothing.
ascii_butugychag: (he has the virtue of not building towers of own shit, like farm swine, but that's the beginning and end of it)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3712 @ 0.00050653 = 1.8802 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50038 @ 0.00050119 = 25.0785 BTC [-] {4}
adlai: clef notation is worse than useless, because it sparks endless bikeshedding about whether E sharp "ever is or could be equal to" F
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> in case its not clear BingoBoingo i'm a fan of your work << ty ben_vulpes
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368096 << fwiw this is how movie scores are recorded
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 16:33:39; mircea_popescu: and if ytou think anyone reads those fucking things while being directed...
adlai: the highest per-minute income for a serious 'session musician' is their sightreading ability
adlai: bonus points if they can sight-transpose... triple bonus if they can do it in the direction unnatural for their instrument's historic bias
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14999 @ 0.00050364 = 7.5541 BTC [+] {2}
thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag
thestringpuller: Live from the labor camp as wild asciilifeform appears.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368109 << adlai is a concert musician ? plays music from a score every day of the week ?
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 16:48:30; adlai: clef notation is worse than useless, because it sparks endless bikeshedding about whether E sharp "ever is or could be equal to" F
ascii_butugychag: or simply derping about, prescribing tools for folks who actually ~do~, as if proposing stalls for cattle ?
thestringpuller: LOL ascii_butugychag sounds like my piano teacher! (who is also russian). "Who needs score? Play jazz learn from memory"
ascii_butugychag: who needs the piano
ascii_butugychag: play in the air.
ascii_butugychag: aha
shinohai: !
ascii_butugychag: play own arse, fart
thestringpuller: from my studies, I thought that jazz musicians routinely passed down songs via audition rather than sight (via score).
psztorc: So, "bitcoin classic", with a 2 MB blocksize limit, is likely to have >60% hashrate at this time tomorrow.
psztorc: Very interesting that you are talking about music theory.
thestringpuller: it wasn't until someone was bored enough to write the thing down that you got Fake Books and stuff of the "American Song Book"
adlai has probably spent more hours playing music than writing lisp, although the trends seem headed for a reversal in a couple years
assbot: The Hard Fork Missile Crisis | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7GSpQ )
adlai: thestringpuller: compare to shakuhachi tradition, where a song isn't "yours" until you've a) tweaked out your own version, and b) taught it to your students
psztorc: I've read it, of course.
psztorc: I just expected something a little more dramatic, I guess.
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> << li poly batt. has no memory effect. but what it does have is rapid cycle wear (and evens shelf rot) << /me seriously interested on data on catalytic caps for FeNi batteries, for 2025 wizard tower
ascii_butugychag: psztorc: 'dramatic' is not when the rockets go up, but when they come down.
psztorc: Maybe they're very quiet when they take off.
psztorc: : )
thestringpuller: i can confirm from my experience with kerbal space program, it's much more dramatic reentering the atmospher than leaving it
assbot: ISIS burns fighters alive for letting Ramadi fall | Fox News ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONxbRB )
BingoBoingo: <psztorc> So, "bitcoin classic", with a 2 MB blocksize limit, is likely to have >60% hashrate at this time tomorrow. << Where does this spz come from? I just woke up.
psztorc: According to a reliable friend, they already have 40% committed, and according to a different friend, the Chinese miners will agree to join the 40%.
adlai: psztorc: i'm more interested in measuring the seismic trembles as miners agonize over raising their soft limit past 1MB... ie, being the guinea pig that expends their own hashpower-hours to verify whether or not it's all a fluffy bluff
ascii_butugychag: не шагу назад (тм) (р)
assbot: Bitcoin Classic ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7IjEK )
BingoBoingo: psztorc: Mebbe this reliable friend would be interested in an interview?
adlai: "hard limit" = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE === "I don't accept a block larger than X", soft limit = relevant only for miners === "I produce blocks up to X"
assbot: Operativo "Cisne negro". - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7Ipw5 )
psztorc: I am aware of the relative lack-of-influence of miners in this case.
punkman: o hey there's gavin in dev list
psztorc: I bring it up because it is in contrast to XT, which no one really liked.
mats: alleged raid against 'el chapo'
psztorc: This has two larges exchanges as well.
shinohai: Goddamnit, can Gavin Andresen make up his mind what he wants?
adlai should maybe have used Y for the soft limit example; these are different parameters, and until miners start wasting their own money to back up these claims, the claims might as well be plaintext on a webpage for all Bitcoin cares
mats: 1/10 breach
ascii_butugychag: folks who want to convert their btc into a usg-alt that mircea_popescu will sell 1,000,000 of for a penny each the day of the phork, can go ahead any time...
ascii_butugychag: (see the 'missile' essay)
psztorc: BingoBoingo: you see, that's the thing when it comes to death threats, though.
adlai: psztorc: out of curiosity, did anything ever come of plans to build a market for exchanging such coins? rather than manually arbitraging between businesses on either side
ascii_butugychag: adlai: there is no shortage of places to trade crackpot alts
ascii_butugychag: what's one more.
psztorc: The plan was to rush out a tiny version of Truthcoin/Hivemind , now I'm just going to wait for the full thing to be done.
psztorc: This one let you exchange the coins, *before* the fork actually split them into two Altcoins.
ascii_butugychag: wut?!!
adlai: ascii_butugychag: you can run bitcoind and forkcoind, and automate https://github.com/TierNolan/bips/blob/bip4x/bip-atom.mediawiki between them... if only anybody wrote the glue for this. for some reason I thought psztorc was working on this, but can't find the github repo
assbot: bips/bip-atom.mediawiki at bip4x · TierNolan/bips · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONy9xk )
ascii_butugychag: psztorc: before the split, the alt does not exist in any sense
adlai: mircea_popescu doesn't own woodcoin, either.
adlai: but funkenstein_ is holding some for him, if that altchain even exists outside of his computer
psztorc: They were essentially synthetic futures on each coin, denominated in fiat.
assbot: The Win-Win Blocksize Solution | Truthcoin: Making Cheap Talk Expensive ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONyiRv )
adlai: psztorc: the problem with basing this rather-necessary tool on TC/HM is that the latter doesn't exist yet...
psztorc: I know, that's why I proposed rushing out a very very simple version which outright relied on multisig for the 2-way-peg and the price-oracle input.
adlai: bitcoind, forkcoind, and various young/crippled bip4x implementations - do
psztorc: I asked for help / support / feedback ... got zero.
adlai: eg - https://github.com/mappum/mercury if you can stomach the java
assbot: mappum/mercury · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7KfNz )
ascii_butugychag: psztorc: you can market shares in own farts, if you feel like it
psztorc: So I just shelved it...unlike TC/HM, the watered-down version required some community buy-in, so I knew it was DoA.
BingoBoingo: psztorc: You have to understand A-flat minor is best key, and this drama is all about Gavin's diminishing ability to see his penis
psztorc: ascii_butugychag: What exactly are you talking about?
ascii_butugychag: the arbitrage thing
ascii_butugychag: !s protocol promise
assbot: 15 results for 'protocol promise' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=protocol+promise
assbot: Wassenaar: Cybersecurity and Export Control - United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONyK2b )
adlai: there's no a-priori reason why fork proponents can't stake their reputation on pgp-signed contracts to buy up their alt after it's launch... reminscent of the $20 XPY floor ascii_butugychag: adlai: ask mircea_popescu to write one up for you, if you need this adlai: psztorc: have you considered asking fork proponents to help build such a market? i think the antifork crowd are more content to take a more patient role in this game of chicken, because the "burden of forking" is on the other camp adlai only trades altcoins in the middle clef psztorc: adlai: Well, who would I ask? ascii_butugychag: mats: didja get in line for jail yet ? ascii_butugychag: mats: i hear they give priority to applicants who give a shit psztorc: Instead, I'm just going to finish my own project. psztorc: As slowly as it takes. mats: i wonder sometimes what prison would be like adlai: psztorc: at the top of my push-down stack of Bitcoin forkists are all the names listed on https://bitcoinclassic.com/ assbot: Bitcoin Classic ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7IjEK ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9256 @ 0.0005016 = 4.6428 BTC [-] psztorc: Well, that's the news, so to speak. mats: i think i would enjoy it, at least a little bit psztorc: I will be lurking about, wrt 2 MB blocksize fork. psztorc: See ya later. thestringpuller: the forkers think it's all fun and games until an ecological disaster occurs. then who is expected to clean it up? deedbot-: [Qntra] Another One Bites The Dust: Cryptsy Edition - http://qntra.net/2016/01/another-one-bites-the-dust-cryptsy-edition/ ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: the vultures will clean up. thestringpuller: so we have to live in vaults because some fucker wants to launch a nuke cause "hey this will fix the world!111" mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368106 << not a bad beginning. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 16:37:02; ascii_butugychag: (he has the virtue of not building towers of own shit, like farm swine, but that's the beginning and end of it) thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 16:48:30; adlai: clef notation is worse than useless, because it sparks endless bikeshedding about whether E sharp "ever is or could be equal to" F mircea_popescu: musical notation is a joke to pretty much every serrious musician. it is a "pons asinorum" of sorts and not much else mircea_popescu: you have to "interpret" and "read it with feeling" and" this isn't what liszt meant" and bla bla. mircea_popescu: it's only there like the clothes are there on woman : to make conversation. adlai envisions an aging mircea_popescu, tired of 'systems analysis', finding his final calling with the shakuhachi. (it's also quite good for spanking) mircea_popescu: i actually broke a bone flute on a flesh ass. mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368128 << quite common actually, yes. chiefly because jazz is a lot more into the whole color and interpretation thing. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 16:57:00; thestringpuller: from my studies, I thought that jazz musicians routinely passed down songs via audition rather than sight (via score). mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368129 |<< this isn't going to be like the "miners vote to uncontroversial softfork, oops forgot to actually implement it" debacle is it ? assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 16:57:11; psztorc: So, "bitcoin classic", with a 2 MB blocksize limit, is likely to have >60% hashrate at this time tomorrow. BingoBoingo: Anyways, look which degenerate gambler is ready to lose other people's money again https://archive.is/qBHnW assbot: KLYEMAX.COM – Crypto Webcam Exchange - Open Beta : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONA3Ou ) mircea_popescu: ahahaha (p) that rocks mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368158 << you must have forgotten january 2015 when "consensus" and "nobody really opposes this" and bla bla. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 17:05:10; psztorc: I bring it up because it is in contrast to XT, which no one really liked. BingoBoingo: Lots of noiseholes loved XT at first mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368167 << davout was working on it. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 17:08:33; adlai: psztorc: out of curiosity, did anything ever come of plans to build a market for exchanging such coins? rather than manually arbitraging between businesses on either side mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's no end of these "bitcoin experts" who have weekly opinions and who are to be taken seriously provided you don't examine anything past last week. BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I need to know for the jokes!!! mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368166 << if you imagine interviews is what protects dangerous idiots from decapitation you're off a different planet already. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 17:07:24; psztorc: BingoBoingo: you see, that's the thing when it comes to death threats, though. BingoBoingo sharpens soldering iron mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368177 << supposedly there is a chain. i never personally checked. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 17:11:33; adlai: but funkenstein_ is holding some for him, if that altchain even exists outside of his computer mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368184 << start by getting in the wot. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 17:13:25; psztorc: I asked for help / support / feedback ... got zero. mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368198 << well, none other than the obvious reason, at any rate. assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 17:16:36; adlai: there's no a-priori reason why fork proponents can't stake their reputation on pgp-signed contracts to buy up their alt after it's launch... reminscent of the$20 XPY floor
mircea_popescu: idea men everywhere.
mircea_popescu: lol bitcoinclassic.
mircea_popescu: derps so fucking desperately need moar brandings and things. plox to make a website. with the cssen
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/bHGp3 << o look at that, the new-xt bs no longer has hearn ?
assbot: Bitcoin Classic ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7PA7E )
mircea_popescu: awww.
BingoBoingo: Hearnia is bad for optics
mircea_popescu: anyway. this bullshit won't be either mined or relayed by trb.
mircea_popescu: they're more than free to make their own altcoin, like everyhone else throughout the years. glhf and all that.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea what they imagine this will do. suppose 90% of the miners move over. i will not honor any of their payments, not on mpex, not on bitbet, not anywhere else. that's the whole market.
shinohai needs to review last night's logs for more info on trb mining pool possibility
mircea_popescu: meanwhile i will continue to honor payments on the actual bitcoin chain.
mircea_popescu: so basically the renegade miners that got scammed into mining a fork got all the mining competition and none of the benefits.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the loyal miners get 10x easier coins.
mircea_popescu: i don't see who minds this ? go right ahead!
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: speaking of crackpot ideas, re: your pool: how about ~preferring~ high-S ?
mircea_popescu: eh, i dunno if you recall the discussion at the time, but anyway. i am not really THAT against that soft fork, because like it or not this situation with ambiguous s-ness is not so good.
mircea_popescu: certainly not against it enough to precipitate a chainwar
ascii_butugychag: but would conveniently drive an additional nail into the enemy's skull
mircea_popescu: yes but i'm not a bloodthirsty orc. not just yet at any rate.
ascii_butugychag: i mean, the present situation is icky
ascii_butugychag: when i issue a tx, 50% chance it never gets in a block
mircea_popescu: anyway, if the toomims take thgeir fake hashpower to this thing it'll be a perfect exit for that set of scammers and good riddance.
ascii_butugychag: or what, some time next year ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, but it costs ~nothing to make it be low-S
mircea_popescu: iirc mod6 was considering a trb patch
ascii_butugychag: it costs patching
ascii_butugychag: and surrendering on the declaration
mircea_popescu: hm ?
ascii_butugychag: bowing to the enemy
ascii_butugychag: 'softfork'ism
mircea_popescu: eh, bowing to reality.
mircea_popescu: not every inconvenience is good enough to call out the troops.
mircea_popescu: troops also got their own land to plow.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> anyway, if the toomims take thgeir fake hashpower to this thing it'll be a perfect exit for that set of scammers and good riddance. << I alway thought the Toomims hashpower was real? Who claiming fake hashpower would claim so little?
ascii_butugychag: why not preferentially mine the high-S ?
ascii_butugychag: betcha the pool would instantly fill with trb folk
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the fake is in the "their".
mircea_popescu: but anyway.
BingoBoingo: Aha
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15004 @ 0.00049818 = 7.4747 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag if we do force a longer chain which breaks that softfork we HAVE to also steal all their money.
ascii_butugychag: how would that work?
mircea_popescu: that we'll doublespend all the txn that they see as conformant, and then impose the longer chain with the doublespends.
ascii_butugychag: double-spend?
ascii_butugychag: ah
mircea_popescu: it kills a lot of people.
ascii_butugychag: do they need to live ?
mircea_popescu: yes, well, let's pace ourselves.
adlai: for purposes of log completeness, since this took way too long to dig up: Olin Shivers's preamble on hundred percent vs eighty percent solutions: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/sre.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONBAUO )
adlai: (might even be worth a deeding?)
mircea_popescu: by olin himself.
adlai waits for the man to show up
adlai: ascii_butugychag: agreed, but for such a mega-classic, it's unbearably un-googleable. anything about "80/100% solutions" (spelled however you like) turns up corporations priding themselves in the quick, dirty, and incomplete.
adlai found it by sifting r^Nrs authors for the familiar name, then sifting his bibliography
gribble: The SRE regular-expression notation: <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/sre.txt>; Technical Bibliography - College of Computer and Information Science: <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/citations.html>; Olin Shivers - College of Computer and Information Science: <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/cv.pdf>
ascii_butugychag: ^ works!111
adlai: provided you know which manual has this preamble, sure.
adlai doesn't actually care much for regex
mircea_popescu: "Unfortunately, his quickly-built socket interface isn't general. It just
mircea_popescu: covers the bits this particular hacker needed for his applications. So the
mircea_popescu: next guy that comes along and needs a socket interface can't use this one.
mircea_popescu: Not only does it lack coverage, but the deep structure wasn't thought out well
mircea_popescu: enough to allow for quality extension. So *he* does his *own* 80%
mircea_popescu: implementation. Five hackers later, five different, incompatible, ungeneral
mircea_popescu: implementations had been built. No one can use each others code."
mircea_popescu: no you don't udnerstand because the specification is the code.
mircea_popescu: !up punindented
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19300 @ 0.0005016 = 9.6809 BTC [+]
ascii_butugychag: !s bipolar lisp
assbot: 0 results for 'bipolar lisp' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bipolar+lisp
assbot: The Bipolar Lisp Programmer ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7SLvV )
ascii_butugychag: ^ as described here.
ascii_butugychag: (psychopathology of foss, etc)
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point oshivers' not aware of is that THE ONLY way to have 100% solutions is with the power of the wot as deployed by b-a
mircea_popescu: with sole persons responsible, and with al lthat.
adlai: fwiw my latest go-to answer to "but why did you use lisp?" is that it lets me optimize for programmer lazyness. (this predates http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-01-2016#1365687 by ~10 months)
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 00:40:01; mircea_popescu: i think i'ma just use adlai to denote lazy from now on.
mircea_popescu: they try to hack it togetgher with bs like the internet taskforce "we believe in rough consensus and working code", but it's structurally nonsense. the only reason it sort-of appeared to work was because it was unwittingly implementing some wot/ba features.
mircea_popescu: such as a backflow of "your shit is broken/down/fuck you"
adlai: what features did wot/ba have before its parents were born?
mircea_popescu: im not sure i understand the question
adlai: (it's a zen joke! http://www.bodhizendo.org/face.htm )
assbot: amasamy_teishos ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7Trl7 )
adlai: meh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_face is a better tl;dr i guess.
assbot: Original face - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7TAF2 )
mircea_popescu: "The right thing to do was to carefully implement one, common base mode for process interaction, and to carefully put in hooks for customising this base mode into language-specific modes" << and in today's installement of intelligence is no defense from stupidity news, "if you tried wrestling with a wild pig in some mud you found in the forrest and got raped, the correct thing is to buy some earth from the supermarket,
mircea_popescu: water it carefully from your own sink and grow your own pig".
ascii_butugychag: hey my pig is growing by the hour!111
ascii_butugychag: snout already protrudes from the pot
mircea_popescu: clearly yhou are set for greatness
ascii_butugychag: !b 8 ✂︎
assbot: Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2PMPPY2.txt )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10950 @ 0.00050089 = 5.4847 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "Any lecturer who serves his time will probably graduate hundreds, if not thousands of students. Mostly they merge into a blur; like those paintings of crowd scenes where the leading faces are clearly picked out and the rest just have iconic representations. This anonymity can be embarrassing when some past student hails you by name and you really haven't got the foggiest idea of who he or she is. It's both nice to
mircea_popescu: be remembered and also toe curlingly embarrassing to admit that you cannot recognise who you are talking to."
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry... what ?
mircea_popescu: da fuck is embarassing about this ? i say "i'm sorry, who are you again ?" a dozen times a day, if it's a day i mostly sleep.
mircea_popescu: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm << nice writing, and in more than one way. ascii_butugychag dja happen to recognize the very plain, alphabetic notation employed ? :D
assbot: The Bipolar Lisp Programmer ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7SLvV )
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: not a maths piece
ascii_butugychag: and this is tarver
ascii_butugychag: !s tarver
assbot: 8 results for 'tarver' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=tarver
mircea_popescu: nevertheless :D
ascii_butugychag: l0l
mircea_popescu: hehehe
mircea_popescu: (fwiw, /me doesn't even recognise such distinction can be had)
mircea_popescu: can not read this man and not love him.
mircea_popescu: "Now one of the things about Lisp, and I've seen it before, is that Lisp is a real magnet for this kind of mind. " check it out, he ... carefully put in the hook for language specific http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-01-2016#1366854
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 17:58:22; mircea_popescu: it is also fundamentally why math "is hard". for every non-retarded young adult who believes math is hard you have a case of a child who developed his own, highly personal set of shitty symbols, and then never received a good explanation as to what the difference between his and "everyone else"'s is, so got lost.
BingoBoingo is just giving words away to qntra shareholders right now. Fucking footnoting inside a blockquote.
adlai: BingoBoingo: you qntring "btc classic"?
BingoBoingo: Decline to comment at this time
adlai off to rosenfeld chess'n'bullshit emporium, leaves scoopworms to earlier birds
mircea_popescu: and in the endless lulz, https://archive.is/ZTfo5
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rke1oJ )
mircea_popescu: "hey, maybe i'm not really fat!!1"
BingoBoingo: NO gavin, you still can't see your penis without a mirror!
kakobrekla: ;;later tell asciilifeform http://dpaste.com/155WRJA.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RkegAa )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: "Bitonic has sold over 200 000 bitcoins and is celebrating by giving away one bitcoin! PART 4"
mircea_popescu: ahahaha.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17800 @ 0.0005016 = 8.9285 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: "The largest criticisms of Symbolics in the article are that Symbolics believed AI would take off and that Symbolics mistakenly pushed its view that proprietary hardware was the way to go for AI."
mircea_popescu: bwahaha. symbolics - wanted to be ms, got raped.
mircea_popescu: there's no engineering brilliance that may excuse that, is there.
mircea_popescu: "And outside the US there were major Lisp efforts, including Cambridge Lisp and Le-Lisp. The humble US grassroots effort did not seek membership from outside the US, and one can safely regard that as a mistake. Frankly, it never occurred to the Common Lisp group that this purely American effort would be of interest outside the US, because very few of the group saw a future in AI that would extend the needs for a standa
mircea_popescu: rd Lisp beyond North America."
mircea_popescu: mwahaha
shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368376 <<< grasping at straws now or appeal to authority ?
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 18:37:55; mircea_popescu: and in the endless lulz, https://archive.is/ZTfo5
mircea_popescu: i dunno, by now they're self-parodic.
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/40lzdm/rich_bankers_paying_expensive_tickets_for/ << "most expensive ever saw". because actual bitcoin conferences in timisoara, b-a etc never happened.
assbot: Rich bankers paying expensive tickets for Blockchain London Con : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1RkfifB )
mircea_popescu: le derp.
shinohai: Maybe Gavin can get them seat on the jet.
mircea_popescu: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2016/01/11#l1452496750.0 << in other news, what scant remains is left of #power-rangers are moving into a "actual improvements" phase.
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1RkfH1E )
mircea_popescu: bluematt left, apparently. which brings the bipedal count to ~0
mircea_popescu: i'd have much preferred it if that quote read "had we done what mp said we shoudl do the first time he called us idiots back in 2013, we'd now be in a position where we could almost pass for human"
mircea_popescu: but hey, bovines bloviate, what's to be expected.
mircea_popescu: aaanyway.
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368387 << mno. for one thing, microshit was not yet itself
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 18:48:43; mircea_popescu: bwahaha. symbolics - wanted to be ms, got raped.
ascii_butugychag: it wanted to be.... varian.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00050161 = 7.8 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: whether the rat existed yet or not, they still aspired to be a rat.
gribble: Ahmed Bodiwala (@CryptoExpert) | Twitter: <https://twitter.com/cryptoexpert>; ahmedbodi · GitHub: <https://github.com/ahmedbodi>; The Arscoin rollout, through the eyes of the server administrators ...: <http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/the-arscoin-rollout-through-the-eyes-of-the-server-administrators/>
mircea_popescu is quite glad it blew up, actually.
mircea_popescu: last fucking thing the world of today needed would be some unfucked & unfuckable, nose-in-the-sky self sufficient engineer derps with delusions of success.
mircea_popescu: "oh we know shit" etc.
mircea_popescu: at least the usg, from the president to the last goon, knows they're sitting on a prayer
mircea_popescu: and that they're wrong, and unloved.
mircea_popescu: but most importantly - wrong.
ascii_butugychag: thing is, these were not pc
ascii_butugychag: they were heavy industrial equipment.
ascii_butugychag: hence - varian.
ascii_butugychag: (example)
ascii_butugychag: caterpillar.
ascii_butugychag: if you like.
mircea_popescu: only reason those are excused is because ancient tradition. otherwise, caterpillar as loathsome as john deere as loathsome as monsanto as loathsome as mpaa
ascii_butugychag: whereas imagine, caterpillar is dead, and now we have only shovels.
mircea_popescu: no, we have city-run stell mill like the city power network,
mircea_popescu: and a flurry of various machien making machines.
mircea_popescu: fuck caterpillar. and boeing. and the whole fucking rest of them.
ascii_butugychag: if mircea_popescu imagines that his gateway to the bowels of hell will be dug by six dudes with shovels, he is smoking something strong.
mircea_popescu: grey goop!
mircea_popescu: "C is therefore a language for which it is easy to write a decent compiler"
mircea_popescu: ahaha I~~~ am the one smoking something strong ?
mircea_popescu: fucking c compiler's not yet been written.
ascii_butugychag: fuck boeing << what does mircea_popescu fly on ? a Junkers ?
mircea_popescu: fuck boeing nevertheless. i do not wish to even hear of bullshit "airport" to have "tsa" at.
mircea_popescu: private jets all the way. private helicopters, cessnas, fuck it.
mircea_popescu: i want to have more landing locations than existing aircraft.
mircea_popescu: houses don't need a fucking pool
mircea_popescu: they need a runway.
mircea_popescu: bitch can cool herself in the basement.
ascii_butugychag: the megastate didn't end up with air superiority because of the gods' whim, though
ascii_butugychag: it follows from orwell's theorem
mircea_popescu: fuck orwell too.
ascii_butugychag: 'sovereignty is the ability to manufacture airplane in large numbers'
mircea_popescu: forget this. no more centralized manufacturing of anything.
ascii_butugychag: yes, but ~with what~ do you intend to fuck him
mircea_popescu: myeah.
ascii_butugychag: shoot down usg fighters with pure mind rays ?
ascii_butugychag: at least tesla had an idea of what this has to be
mircea_popescu: nope, shoot them down with the same rays usa shot down soviet strategic bombers
mircea_popescu: bankruptcy ray.
mircea_popescu: a little bit of internal unrest ray too.
mircea_popescu: best ray to date, as far as the military records go.
punkman: "a flurry of various machine making machines." "houses don't need a fucking pool, they need a runway." << I love futuristic-mp
mircea_popescu: as someone once said, "their tricks work for them only a short distance of their run, and for us the whole run."
ascii_butugychag: must be great being an immortal demigod
mircea_popescu: i got promoted ?
ascii_butugychag: never need to kill anybody, just wait for'em to die
mircea_popescu: just as long as i get my death certificates.
BingoBoingo awaits mircea_popescu paying out bounties to Unilever for the death of his enemies.
mircea_popescu: all the talk neglects to notice how teh usg is force to try and replace cars - autonomous for 1500 miles - with rubber band machines, autonomous for maybe 50. at GREAT expense.
mircea_popescu: why do they need that, one would wonder ?
mircea_popescu: fuck that. airplanes, 3k miles, etc.
mircea_popescu: "sovereignity is the ability to convince lazy idiots that symbols have meaning".
mircea_popescu: avast.
deedbot-: [Qntra] Gavin and Toomim Present: "Classic" Another Hard Fork Risk - http://qntra.net/2016/01/gavin-and-toomim-present-classic-another-hard-fork-risk/
BingoBoingo: !up punindented
mircea_popescu: let's consider the following bit of clisp guts :
mircea_popescu: This example is a mistake that is easy to make. The programmer here did not declare his arrays as fully as he could have. Therefore, each array access was about as slow as a function call when it should have been a few instructions. The original declaration was as follows:
mircea_popescu: (proclaim '(type (array fixnum *) *ar1* *ar2* *ar3*))
mircea_popescu: The three arrays happen to be of fixed size, which is reflected in the following correct declaration:
mircea_popescu: (proclaim '(type (simple-array fixnum (4)) *ar1*))
mircea_popescu: (proclaim '(type (simple-array fixnum (4 4)) *ar2*))
mircea_popescu: (proclaim '(type (simple-array fixnum (4 4 4)) *ar3*))
mircea_popescu: are you seriously going to tell me that the compiler fails to identify this optimization ?!
mircea_popescu: "Altering the faulty declaration improved the performance of the entire system by 20%." << umm... go hang ?
BingoBoingo: !up PeterL
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00050179 = 6.2724 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell psztorc thank you for enriching my morning lulz
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: "There is no reason that a programmer should know that this rewrite is needed. On the other hand, finding that performance was not as expected should not have led the manager of the programmer in question to conclude, as he did, that Lisp was the wrong language." ahaha what ?!
mircea_popescu aborts this with an unspecified error code.
PeterL: <mircea_popescu> houses don't need a fucking pool
PeterL: * <mircea_popescu> they need a runway. << Why not both?
mircea_popescu: just making a rhetorical point
mircea_popescu: they can have a kennel for all i care.
PeterL: https://www.rt.com/news/266872-afalina-helicopter-cheapest-russia/ << and now everybody can switch to helicopter instead of car
assbot: Meet Afalina: Russian manufacturer reveals the world’s cheapest helicopter (VIDEO) — RT News ... ( http://bit.ly/1N5zIBj )
mircea_popescu: i briefly considered a two seater thing a few years back
mircea_popescu: it was actuallyt about ~same as a car.
punkman: can't fit many girls in two seater
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: also flying a 1/4 ton thing is a little iffy.
mircea_popescu: kinda like sailing in a nut shell
mircea_popescu: (flying a fixed wing is similar, except the arrangement has signigicant - if not gravitational - inertia. a tiny heli does not.)
mircea_popescu: or how do you call those things... deltaplan ?
mircea_popescu: hang glider ?
punkman: I kinda liked this one, also lands on water http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-01-2016#1361483
assbot: Logged on 06-01-2016 14:03:09; punkman: http://iconaircraft.com/news/flying-the-icon-a5-in-new-york-city/ neat
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368478 << the sole purpose of 'proclaim' is to hand-optimize where the compiler cannot SAFELY do it
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 19:40:10; mircea_popescu: are you seriously going to tell me that the compiler fails to identify this optimization ?!
assbot: CLHS: Function PROCLAIM ... ( http://bit.ly/1N5AG0p )
ascii_butugychag: cl is not, e.g., haskell, does not attempt mechanical type inference
ascii_butugychag: deltaplan, not boeing.
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368493 << same pathetic range as car, too
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 19:44:32; mircea_popescu: it was actuallyt about ~same as a car.
PeterL: back to the topic of alphabet, alchemists/early chemists came up with wacky symbols for all the elements, thankfully somebody got smart and switched to alphabetic symbols instead.
ascii_butugychag: what's the point ? rooftop escapes ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag ah ok
mircea_popescu: PeterL you don't say.
PeterL: helicopter can go faster than car, more direct route
ascii_butugychag: if yours is the only one in town - sure
mircea_popescu: up until you run into some headwind.
ascii_butugychag: or traffic.
mircea_popescu: traffic isn't so big a problem - easeir to make autoflown heli than car.
ascii_butugychag: mno. ground effect.
ascii_butugychag: ever fly a toy heli ?
PeterL: what traffic, aren't we killing off 90% of population?
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: yeah but the remaining folk all have dirigibles
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag let's see... anywehre you go, there's a ~1k lane highway available. and it's on ~ 50 or 100 levels. so 50k lanes at a minimum. what fucking traffic.
mircea_popescu: not to mention heli brakes easier than any car.
PeterL: heli breaks easier than car?
mircea_popescu: well of course. you can just plug the power backwards, who's to know.
ascii_butugychag: wut
mircea_popescu: if you're doing 10kN forward, you can within 2-3 seconds do 10kN backward.
mircea_popescu: no braking system approaches this.
ascii_butugychag: discussing braking in a machine that can go into, e.g., spins, is lulzy
ascii_butugychag: only on the ground do you get stability (mostly) for free
BingoBoingo: In other news, this may be the fastest a qntra has gotten social media noise https://twitter.com/qntra/status/686996869583523840 << 20 minutes
mircea_popescu: you get stability in the sense that you agree to be a carrot moving at speed on a vegetable grater.
mircea_popescu: it's almost like "being a usg subject gives you stability for free"
mircea_popescu: yeah... i... have seen.
PeterL: less likely to hit a deer if travelling by helicopter
ascii_butugychag: eagle in the air intake ?
BingoBoingo: !b 2 ✂︎
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2C4RCVR.txt )
mircea_popescu: well not for a heli
mircea_popescu: but yes, small jets mostly get killed by ducks.
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, many of the small helis on the market today are turbojet
mircea_popescu: yeah, but these tiny things here discussed seemed more like chainsaw than turbojet.
ascii_butugychag: (e.g., some of the police choppers where i live. i was shown one up close at a public expo, tiny thing)
ascii_butugychag: speaking of chainsaw
ascii_butugychag: i've something that beats mircea_popescu's huqsvarna motorcycle
ascii_butugychag: the new train cars in this town are...
ascii_butugychag: kawasaki.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
BingoBoingo: wow
mircea_popescu: actually... the motorbike dudes moved into heavy industry in the 90s
assbot: A peek inside Metro’s new rail car - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1SMRGjf )
ascii_butugychag: complete with barfproof floor
mircea_popescu: how's barfproof floor work ?
ascii_butugychag: linoleum
mircea_popescu: "we don't let any poor people in"
mircea_popescu: oh.
ascii_butugychag: l0l if only
mircea_popescu: your life's ever closer to the dungeon, eh alf.
ascii_butugychag: 'Привет тебе, судьбы моей рычаг...'
ascii_butugychag: http://grist.org/article/7-kinds-of-government-subsidies-those-angry-ranchers-get-that-you-dont << lulzily linked from the fishwrap
assbot: 7 kinds of government subsidies those angry ranchers get that you don’t | Grist ... ( http://bit.ly/1N5D3Ah )
assbot: Yik Yak Use Leads To Arrest | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1N5D6vP )
BingoBoingo: !up PeterL
assbot: The new way police are surveilling you: Calculating your threat ‘score’ - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1l3LHsA )
ascii_butugychag: 'As officers respond to calls, Beware automatically runs the address. The searches return the names of residents and scans them against a range of publicly available data to generate a color-coded threat level for each person or address: green, yellow or red.'
ascii_butugychag: 'Exactly how Beware calculates threat scores is something that its maker, Intrado, considers a trade secret, so it is unclear how much weight is given to a misdemeanor, felony or threatening comment on Facebook. '
ascii_butugychag: l0ltr0n1c
ascii_butugychag: 'The Fresno City Council called a hearing on Beware in November after constituents raised concerns. Once council member referred to a local media report saying that a woman’s threat level was elevated because she was tweeting about a card game titled “Rage,” which could be a keyword in Beware’s assessment of social media.'
ascii_butugychag: who remembers the film 'brazil' ?
ascii_butugychag: 'Councilman Clinton J. Olivier... ...asked Dyer a simple question: “Could you run my threat level now?” Dyer agreed. The scan returned Olivier as a green, but his home came back as a yellow, possibly because of someone who previously lived at his address, a police official said.'
assbot: Full Disclosure: SSH Backdoor for FortiGate OS Version 4.x up to 5.0.7 ... ( http://bit.ly/1N5Ey1q )
ascii_butugychag: Run Moar Closed Turdware !11111
assbot: Saudi Arabia's Aramco considering share sale - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1N5EJd6 )
ascii_butugychag: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10887981 << lulzy shitgnomade re: the fortinet thing
assbot: SSH Backdoor found in Fortinet firewalls | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/1SMTo43 )
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27550 @ 0.000504 = 13.8852 BTC [+] {5}
deedbot-: [Qntra] Europol Claims DD4BC Action - http://qntra.net/2016/01/europol-claims-dd4bc-action/
mircea_popescu: o hey, aramco shares huh ?
mircea_popescu: gives the chinese something to buy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12600 @ 0.00050063 = 6.3079 BTC [-] {3}
trinque: mircea_popescu │ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367833 << i can't discern which side you're taking. << the side with mostly (if not *entirely*) plain english, and even better, represented as an explicit tree with s-expressions. that one can parse the hieroglyphs when he's habituated to them... fine, but I thought we were after "fits in head" here. how much skull-space does that
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 05:28:22; trinque: why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway
trinque: parsing take?
mircea_popescu: myeah
trinque: the comment about syntactic barriers was this, that if the hieroglyphs keep dummies from mauling the field (even as a happy accident), there are much better ways to push them out
mircea_popescu: quite.
trinque: mircea_popescu: your comment about symbolics murdering the competition and saying "here is the spec" for example.
mircea_popescu: chief among those ways, teach them how to thing properly and watch them lose interest and move on
mircea_popescu: self-selection
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6152 @ 0.00050002 = 3.0761 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: !up user1675_
user1675_: hello
user1675_: i would like to take a fraction of my time to talk about
user1675_: how shit your registration system is
user1675_: there is no manual or instructions
user1675_: i bet you hired an indian on craigslist to build it for you
BingoBoingo: !help
BingoBoingo: ^ instructions
user1675_: it sucks harder than my grandmas rotten socks
mircea_popescu: who're you again ?
BingoBoingo: Wasn't it clear? he's ~user1675@212.158.180.119
mircea_popescu: aok
shinohai: lol wut?
BingoBoingo: So, apparently qntra is hours ahead of ther derp press on "ClassicCoin" fork. Who wants to put odds on Qntra being days ahead of ragazine et al?
mircea_popescu: lol
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell psztorc Seriously, thank you for that tip.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16476 @ 0.00050278 = 8.2838 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21313 @ 0.000499 = 10.6352 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: Gavin and Toomim Present: "Classic" – Another Hard Fork Risk | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1RKjG60 )
BingoBoingo: !up CowManure
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase before July 2016 :: 0.94 B (31%) on Yes, 2.09 B (69%) on No | closing in 4 months 2 weeks | weight: 65028 (100000 to 2`000) ... ( http://bit.ly/1RKkQi8 )
CowManure: What is considered 'bitcoin main'?
shinohai: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1318519.msg13531667#msg13531667 <<< In which I am called an "MPFag" on bitcointalk, whatever that means.
assbot: Analysis and list of top big blocks shills (XT #REKT ignorers) ... ( http://bit.ly/1RKl2Of )
CowManure: were either of those answers to my question?
CowManure: I'm just curious based on the comments in the bet i posted
BingoBoingo: CowManure: I am unsure
kakobrekla: seems like blockchain.info resolves that bet
punkman: the main chain of blockhain.info. can be problematic if blockchain.info starts displaying both 1mb and >1mb chains concurrently
kakobrekla: but it say "any block ... on bc.info"
punkman: but also "main"
kakobrekla: bets are not resolved by title
BingoBoingo: Well sometimes they have been...
kakobrekla: like?
BingoBoingo: I dun remember
BingoBoingo: Mebbe I'm wrong
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14200 @ 0.00050045 = 7.1064 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychat
ascii_butugychat: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368591 << discussion was not solely about 'hieroglyphs', but even something as ordinary as matrix notation
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 20:57:40; trinque: mircea_popescu │ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367833 << i can't discern which side you're taking. << the side with mostly (if not *entirely*) plain english, and even better, represented as an explicit tree with s-expressions. that one can parse the hieroglyphs when he's habituated to them... fine, but I thought we were after "fits in head" here. how much skull-space does that
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1W54cdA )
ascii_butugychat: i am NOT interested in dealing with this in motherfuking VERBAL form
ascii_butugychat: all day, every day.
ascii_butugychat: for a student, sure
ascii_butugychat: (but not that i do not earn my bread in front of a classroom, also)
ascii_butugychat notices lulzy typo in own nick
jurov: quaternions are not in wot, case closed.
ascii_butugychat: they are while i am.
jurov: !gettrust asciilifeform quaternions
assbot: quaternions is not registered in WoT.
jurov: ;)
ascii_butugychat: 'i am the lorax, who speaks for the trees!111' (tm) (r)
jurov: symbolic shorthand is very useful for a mathematician who want to pack as much stuff as possible into his viewport/chalkboard
jurov: also, i can't imagine taking notes on math analysis lectures using "plaintext" only
jurov: but in the end, it is actually only shorthand.
jurov: actually, having clear transcription rules between math symbols <-> plain english would be spiffy
ascii_butugychat: it is 'only' shorthand in exactly the same sense that the letters on your screen are 'shorthand' for raw bits
jurov: computer could render formulas from text, without relying on TeX or worse
ascii_butugychat: could also wipe arse with tree bark
ascii_butugychat: yes, could
ascii_butugychat: or even not at all.
ascii_butugychat: ~could~ !!11
ascii_butugychat: but WHY.
jurov: and now, if that effort would run into problems, because math symbols are superset of written engl or some such
jurov: *then* wwe can revisit the arguemnt
ascii_butugychat: it is not only a matter of characters
ascii_butugychat: (how to write integral? what if i want the stick longer? do i have to spend all day fitting the bloody thing to a grid?)
jurov: wtf?
ascii_butugychat: ever typeset maths ?
trinque: why not invent operators all day in C++ ? and were you to explain the distinction between the two, the conversation would end right there.
ascii_butugychat: trinque: c++ sucks and this is one reason why
jurov: omg now they pull even c++ into the discussion
trinque: for fucks sake.
ascii_butugychat: a proper language lets you make operators, as in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=103 where i solved mr mold's puzzle by turning a running cl into his language
assbot: Loper OS » Nock Nock (Part 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1W57c9X )
trinque: he is *not* a good example of someone creating a sane language
trinque: took something that fits to sexps just fine, made HOON
ascii_butugychat: not cited for that reason
trinque: nock, rather.
ascii_butugychat: but i ~was~ able to redefine square brackets, ?, ^, etc
trinque: your example is that "I was able to wrangle someone else's nonsense with lisp" and I agree it does that rather well.
ascii_butugychat: trinque: ever do any serious original mathematics ?
trinque: if it is up to you entirely to invent the notation, I don't know why one would go to one with non-obvious evaluation order and all manner of other problems I thought lisp solved
ascii_butugychat: or so much as attempt ?
trinque: no, I have not
trinque: and you are missing the part where I'm asking a damn question.
trinque: lol
ascii_butugychat: then i am trying to describe 'why musical staff' to deaf folk
ascii_butugychat: who ask 'why not just write, do ra mi...'
trinque: god that's another motherfucking terrible notation and I play music!
ascii_butugychat: so does trinque fancy switching to verbal musical staff ?
ascii_butugychat: do, ra, mi?
jurov: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: ty jurov. or let's go back to basic kindergarten, https://2000thingswpf.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/794-002.png?w=630
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RB7Qgp )
ascii_butugychag: verbalize this for me. and explain why anyone outside of a mental asylum would want to manipulate the thing in that form.
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with (a,b ; c,d) ?
ascii_butugychag: that they are rows? of an inherently spatial thing ?
ascii_butugychag: might represent, e.g., pixels ?
trinque: can't write matrix multiplication in lisp eh?
mircea_popescu: nope, can't be done.
ascii_butugychag: can write in morse if you like
ascii_butugychag: as in, preferred format for manipulation.
trinque: as for music I prefer a tracker, or yes, writing code to produce it
ascii_butugychag: trinque: and your tracker is all-ascii, and runs on 'do, ra, mi' in paragraph form ?
jurov: well, i thought thread concerns spreading of information and definition of alphabet
ascii_butugychag: jurov: it was originally about 'whether maths require a graphics terminal'
mircea_popescu: no, it was whether we'll be supporting anything but ascii
ascii_butugychag: and the 'pdf must die and not replaced with anything like it' thing
ascii_butugychag: procrustean lunacy
ascii_butugychag: i am keeping my legs AND my head tyvm
jurov: oh, that it very much does for 99 out of 100 thinkers
jurov: that had math analysis lectures usign blackboard
jurov: if math analysis was taught in lisp, that would maybe not be the case
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368661 << rather. because it 'd be for once and all be an actually COMPLETE notation
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 23:01:59; jurov: actually, having clear transcription rules between math symbols <-> plain english would be spiffy
mircea_popescu: currently what alf counts as "notation" for math is roughly speaking a sort of c++
mircea_popescu: "kinda most of the stuff except what we don't understand"
ascii_butugychag: it is imperfect
ascii_butugychag: but it beats FUCKING WORDS
mircea_popescu: no, it is not "imperfect". it is structurally broken
mircea_popescu: and the argument that it "beats words" is not unlike the argument that clang "beats lisp" because "apple ipad!!11"
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: kindly 'unbrokenize' http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368699 for me ?
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 23:13:12; ascii_butugychag: ty jurov. or let's go back to basic kindergarten, https://2000thingswpf.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/794-002.png?w=630
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag you know that thing as displayed is actually meaningless.
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ascii_butugychag: it is most certainly ~not~ meaningless
mircea_popescu: what's "dot" ?
ascii_butugychag: it does not stand alone in an empty universe, no
mircea_popescu: heh.
ascii_butugychag: you gotta know some letters, what multiplication is, etc
mircea_popescu: your idea of meaning is unexamined.
ascii_butugychag: quite examined.
mircea_popescu: what's the difference between the forty and the sixty pixel tall long line with the little vertical ends ?
ascii_butugychag: just that i operate using an idea of meaning that lets me make things happen, occasionally, rather than having to stay in bed because we have not actually discovered REAL MEANING yet
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: just like the c++ folks!
mircea_popescu: IT JUST WORKS!11
ascii_butugychag: with the difference that i don't have to catch stroustrup and hang him upside-down and soldering iron to get new mathematical notation when i need it...
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mircea_popescu: riiight.
mircea_popescu: it's not only unspecified, it's also... unusable by a machine. because who the fuck knows when you'll feel the need for colored unicodemen
jurov: mircea_popescu with all your hate of english why do you suddenly deem it fit to express math concepts unadorned?
mircea_popescu: english is just broken romanian ie latin.
mircea_popescu: for some reason most of my barbarian friends seem to prefer it!
ascii_butugychag: jurov: my understanding is that mircea_popescu is so allergic to 'visual thinker'-ism that he barfs just thinking about any such thing being intrinsic to some aspect of whatever discipline
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu prolly writes his electrical schematics as netlists every time, etc
ascii_butugychag: specifies plans for a building using words, like kind solomon
ascii_butugychag: *king
ascii_butugychag: etc
mircea_popescu: not even. it's just that i'm so allergic to "dynamically linked" bullshit that i barf at the very notion of a computing system that might need "expansions" because people don't want ot learn to read and write
ascii_butugychag: why does it 'need expansions' ?
mircea_popescu: do you understand that your computer is broken by design for as long as you allow the conceptual possibility of adding symbols ?
ascii_butugychag: what's wrong with programmatic fonts ?
mircea_popescu: nothing, as long as you don't expect me to run the program
mircea_popescu: which is what started this entire discussion : pdf does not degrade gracefully
mircea_popescu: and as such fucking burn it.
ascii_butugychag: depends what means 'gracefully'
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ascii_butugychag: for some reason i wonder if mircea_popescu has watched 'ascii starwars'
mircea_popescu: i have an ascii art plugin for mah video player ?
ascii_butugychag: does it convey the complete 'meaning of starwars' ?
mircea_popescu: which yes, i sometimes watch.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: iirc 'mplayer' does, aha
mircea_popescu: oh, that's not a challenge.
mircea_popescu: the complete meaning of star warsa can be conveyed in two lines.
mircea_popescu: ~= equivalent to all the rest of the us pulp, call it hubbard and send it home.
mircea_popescu: as long as what we do is we take ((1,2),(2,3)) and either print it as such or else draw it for your benefit as seen there, if you run a plug in everyone's happy.
jurov: how is adding symbols different from you taking a word and redefining it?
jurov: you abhor former, yet do latter often
mircea_popescu: if you expect to have a [ that scales to lines, we got a problem. there's not going to be any 244/245/179 bs
mircea_popescu: jurov the later is actually part of the graph. i can not meaningfully search for a motherfucking dot.
mircea_popescu: or for his dumbass arrows in the example given yest.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i did say many times that a canonical representation of whatever is, rightfully, sexpr
mircea_popescu: so then we basically are happy with an alphabet of ~100 ish characters and that's that.
jurov: well if I have to explore context what a word mean, well, then it is C++ too
ascii_butugychag: but somehow this turned into 'let's do maths as euclid did, with WORDZ!111'
mircea_popescu: jurov there's a difference between a proper existing ast, such as we have with words, unless we're idiots ; and a random gcc barf product.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag well cuz you paniced and lost it.
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, english does NOT guarantee you a sane (disambiguated) AST.
ascii_butugychag: i thought this was known to all.
mircea_popescu: in myhands it does.
jurov: even with best affort of the author, ast in the recipients varies
jurov: *effort
mircea_popescu: that's the luser's problem.
jurov: for spoken english
jurov: lol
mircea_popescu: but be all this as it may, for as long as gossipd.pop | print yields ((1,2),(2,3)) for me while gossipd.pop | mathgraph yields whatever ascii wants it to yield, we're happy.
jurov: ascii_butugychag: you see, quaternions are not in his wot and it's problem of the lusers who use it
ascii_butugychag: actually english speakers are so habituated to this that they have problems with ANY attempt at 'english-parsing machine'
ascii_butugychag: see the horrors in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=568 for instance
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ascii_butugychag: jurov: if this were actually so, and he were consistent about 'in wot', would have to avoid, e.g., aircraft with computerized autopilot
jurov: he surely tries
ascii_butugychag: and eulora
ascii_butugychag: with the quaternionic gpu
mircea_popescu: you don't have to run the graphical client! for all it cares you can talk to it by hand.
ascii_butugychag: but do you ?
mircea_popescu: looky : run diana_coman's bot, turn of the gfx altogether, it's 100% bash
ascii_butugychag: so the thing gracefully degrades to a text MUD? neato.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: not by any means all my doing. but the design is sane and yes, it does. she's currently making a map of resources in practically this.
ascii_butugychag: very spiffy
ascii_butugychag always thought adventure games oughta work like this.
mircea_popescu: makes two of us.
mircea_popescu: and im not saying the gfx add-on is not helpful or w/e. but also not fucking mandatory.
mircea_popescu: and don't tell me "oh i can not keep maps in head o noes"
mircea_popescu: you playeds fucking rogue.
mircea_popescu: !up RBL
mircea_popescu: in fact, the eulora experience is very much in line with a lengthy personal history whereby very smart, well intentioned, patient people trying to cater to my shockingly insane whims and whines end up with exceptionally well crafted items that stand proudly on their own.
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BingoBoingo: !up linton_s_dawson
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1368659 << i used to. not proposing that everyone gotta be me, or anything. but yes, i used to.
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 22:59:46; jurov: also, i can't imagine taking notes on math analysis lectures using "plaintext" only
mircea_popescu: actually... when it came time for the cantor proof, the "work hard" galz tried to copy the whole fucking matrix off the table, and this made a meme at the time
mircea_popescu: because nobody fucking sane actually thinks THAT is how you note down that thing.