mircea_popescu: wywialm yes but the offer's not clear. asked if you need money, turns out no ; asked if you need skill, turns out no. well...
mircea_popescu: mod6> I'll have to discuss with ben on the IRC section, do we even allow people to use the webclient to connect here? <<< i thought so, no ?
a111: Logged on 2016-04-20 23:06 trinque: well... we did do the nose
a111: Logged on 2016-04-20 23:17 mod6: this matcha tea isn't bad as long as its not clumpy
mod6: mircea_popescu: yeah, the web-irc thing seems to be fine.
mod6: So I dunno when I said I was going to check in on the list of things to do, if that was today or friday or whatever. But I'm just getting started now. Been too damn beat down since Friday to even do anything.
mod6: Alas, onwards and upwards.
deedbot: copumpkin voiced for 30 minutes.
copumpkin: 1) deedbot seems to reject my attempts to register with it
copumpkin: 2) mpex seems to have forgotten my public key
copumpkin: anyone know what's up with either of those?
copumpkin: I've been trying echo "STAT" | gpg -u <my key id> --clearsign | gpg --encrypt --armor -r 2FB7B452
mircea_popescu: for one thing, seems to be way before the last mpex key update years ago ?
copumpkin: I did have to give you my key again a couple of years ago
mod6: copumpkin: 2FB7B452 << this is mp's personal key, try with '02DD2D91'
mircea_popescu: oddly enough i don't even recognize my key in short form o.O
copumpkin: it still shows me as having MPOE holdings. Is that expected?
mircea_popescu: still there for collectors, ie, people just like you, who might want a screenshot\
copumpkin: pretty good. You? I hear you had a falling out with -assets
mircea_popescu: ahahah check out his hostmask asciilifeform ~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin :D
deedbot: copumpkin voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
mircea_popescu: but anyway - you can self-voice for an indefinite period by pm-ing deedbot $up and then $v the otp it gives you
copumpkin: yeah, I tried that before, but it refused to register me
copumpkin: [21:17:27] <deedbot> Import failed for copumpkin.
copumpkin: I just typed $register copumpkin <fingerprint>
copumpkin: [22:18:14] <deedbot> copumpkin may not $up
deedbot: copumpkin voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: So roughly extrapolating alf time from this and applying to Cardano... By 2020?
BingoBoingo: Oh, I was thinking more cosmological phenomena or natural process than machine
BingoBoingo: to be fair I'm running roughly 10 years behind on everything that matters myself
BingoBoingo awaits seeing this sold in Walmart bathroom aisle. Starting to suspect instead of mp's watermelon field we'll just palletize obeasts
mod6: asciilifeform: congrats!
gribble: Error: "up" is not a valid command.
deedbot: midnightmagic may not $up copumpkin
deedbot: copumpkin voiced for 30 minutes.
midnightmagic: oh. I thought anyone who could +v themselves could $up?
midnightmagic: i may have missed him, but anyway he asked me for +v
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic> oh. I thought anyone who could +v themselves could $up? << i'm not entirely sure how this even works by now. possibly only l1 ?
midnightmagic: oh well, good denough to just have active users willing to do it.
mircea_popescu: ups really only get hard once one starts being loudly stupid
midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: so if you are majority owner of the new private mpex, did you just force a sale of mpex to yourself?
midnightmagic: hrm. maybe the /topic needs and update for accuracy's sake re: +v being a sort of viral thing
midnightmagic: dangit. everybody seems to do things the exact times I'm not actively observing..
mircea_popescu: well if you actively observe a day every 12, you have a 94% chance of missing events.
midnightmagic: It would indeed be a sad life were a human be doomed to repeat a 12-day cycle ad infinitum!
mircea_popescu: hey, most humans historically lived on a 7 day cycle composed of a smaller 1 day cycle 85% of the time.
midnightmagic: Historically humans have been a fairly sad lot by the reckoning of reasonably educated developed-nation citizens. But no, it just seems that while I look away things happen that I find interesting with frequent regularity.
mircea_popescu: the notion that the aforementioned 7 day cycle / daily cycle human was SAD is so much fan wank, to survive in the minds of the incredibly sad contemporary population mostly on the grounds that hey, panglossism is easy and where would they meet a german serf anyway, to find out first hand he was actually having a better life than they do.
mircea_popescu: ~nobody at any point in history was as sad a lot as the ~1bn dead souls captive in the said remains of "the western world"
midnightmagic: Such a thing did I not say; but rather to assert both that a 12-day repeating cycle would be a sad life, and that ancient humans lived a sad and brutish life to which few, if any, modern humans would realistically adhere should they find themselves the unwitting beneficiary of what heretofore might be considered the romantic notion of historical displacement!
mircea_popescu: the only crapsack world is the present, in the sense that the only time most nobody, historical or contemporary actually would choose to live, is now.
midnightmagic: Either through modern weakness, or perhaps a lack of related distant observational choice of a pure soul about to be born, it would surprise me indeed to discover a current-era developed-nation citizen who when presented with a factual account of ancient human life would choose to return to primal ways. The romance of the garden of eden is similarly equidistant from fact as is the romance of classic
mircea_popescu: "a factual account" is an exercise in nonsense. should this "factual" be presented in ideological terms alligned with the present insanity, and should this "tabula rasa" item be somehow atuned to same ideological terms (which has exactly no chance of happening, but they invested in promoting and preserving said idiocy like to pretend it's somehow natural and universal, like all other ideological blind tunnels ever), then yes.
midnightmagic: I merely intended to convey the hypothetical notion of an actual life as experienced first-hand. Even 100 years ago frontiersmen arriving to the Klondike, as a more accessible example, lived a life so perilous and filled with hardship I doubt nearly anyone alive would choose to return to it.
mircea_popescu: consider as a simple example palindromes, a 2004 film by todd solondz. it tells the story of a plain, common girl aged 13 that wants to get pregnant. she is in this representative of a small but present throughout history minority. for living in any other time, she would have had a husband, children and a family and been perfectly happy. such as is amply recorded, as undesirious we might be to look at the records.
mircea_popescu: instead, she gets a mother that forces a curetage on her that ends up with a hysterectomy,
mircea_popescu: and then explains the importance of abortion for to increase the qty of quarts of icecream in the house.
mircea_popescu: the notion that this sort of trade appeals to anyone but the patently insane is... well.. patently insane.
a111: Logged on 2015-05-15 06:31 cazalla: ben_vulpes, comparable homes in my area are going for 600k, supposedly worth so much more than what my grand parents paid for their massive acre blocks back in the day where they were able to raise lots of kids on one wage yet i'm supposed to believe you're average australian couple who both work and pay for someone else to raise the 1 kid have it better because the total lack of land and bricks is worth $$$
mircea_popescu: the people who went to klondike SOUGHT OUT the perilous life they lived. the people stuck in traffic sought out no traffic.
midnightmagic: Amusing tangential but related example is Seth McFarlane's diatribe in 100 Ways To Die In The West, which in its agonizing detail describes wild west living in a way rarely seen in sanitized novels written by people more interested in Marty Robbins folk song. :)
mircea_popescu: just because one style of lying is replaced by another style of lying doesn't mean we've reached any closer to "factual".
mircea_popescu: 100 ways to die in the west or no, mark twain died in his bed after smoking two carloads worth of cigars.
midnightmagic: The people who sought out the Klondike were people whose lives were often equally brutish, violent, oppressed, and hateful. Hard work was so hard by our reckoning that doing it at home or believing the lies of the thrice-remove rumour mill impossible to corroborate was enough to drive them by the thousands across land and sea and river for the promise of a life *where they no longer had to deal with
mircea_popescu: your epithets are about as interesting as the miners calling you a confused youth with no real understanding of the world.
mircea_popescu: except "civilisation" is what they had, not what you do. and your idea of "justice" is... welll. the sops.
midnightmagic: Of course were I pure hypothetical pure soul standing in front of many bags, into each one I could leap and choose what time I arrived, absent any cultural baggage and in any event viscera at all, perhaps I would think differently. As I am now? Disease, sanitation, violence, injustice, cruelty, exposure, starvation.. these are alien pressures to any of us. A rare, rare few thinking they could achiev
midnightmagic: e a kind of fiefdom in such a past I think might wish to make the journey to begin with, but exposure to violence of the sort Soapy Smith meted out is, I think, something no one given the choice with eyes open could make, constitution notwithstanding.
mircea_popescu: well of course as you are now you'd pick your poison. that's the problem.
mircea_popescu: but this is no basis for any sort of discussion of the possibilities.
mircea_popescu: and note that most people lived quite happily under same soapy smith. in fact, from experience a mob run town is a better place than a bureaucrat run town, without exceptions.
mircea_popescu: EVEN when bureaucrat run town consists of "give everyone foodstamps", ie, it's not even self-sustained.
midnightmagic: That is true. Can the poison be separated from the person now? Is it possible to live a pure life in that sense? I know some who do. Like right now. Friends. And while integration with our life is impossible by now, they are wistful.
midnightmagic: I know of nobody who was happy he was there except Soapy Smith and his gang themselves.
mircea_popescu: well yeah, because happy people don't tend to make facebook pages
mircea_popescu: for one thing, there's the "we were younger then" thing.
mircea_popescu: in unrelated news, "This is your XQJ-37 plasma cannon. The only trouble is that since the old model XQJ was cobbled together from junked Amiga motherboards, you can only have one shot on the screen at a time."
midnightmagic: Unrelated factoid: the life expectancy numbers shockingly low are usually calculated as an average including infant mortality rates.
mircea_popescu: iirc this was discussed in the channel last time someone tried to use the "life expectancy" thing.
mircea_popescu: however - it turns out high infant mortality is absolutely necessary for males to even consider starting a family. if there's 0 natural selection going on in the litter the task of extracting unworthy worms from the wailing woman's clutches to bang their head against a rock is just too damned demaning and ultimately not worth the hassle.
mircea_popescu: which is part and parcel of why today's west utterly sucks : most of the walkers should have been dead before puberty.
mircea_popescu: "oppressed" and "violent" and whatnot sound bad on paper - but in practice all it means is that "you can walk into two bars, one of which has sensibly shittier people than the other". choice is more or less obvious.
midnightmagic: ahI hardly think a baby's chance encounter with chlamydia is a positive evolutionary pressure. Besides, if all that was the ideal then all medicine must be eschewed in service of the notion of natural selection, while a belief in our *ability to detect long-term positive evolutionary mutations* must be assumed perfect.
mircea_popescu: not necessarily that far. merely pointing out that this car is worse than a horse is not necessarily a proposition to eschew all further use of fire.
midnightmagic: I'm not going to be defending millenials, by the way. Their particular deficiencies appear to be maladaptive.
mircea_popescu: (i've had the pleasure to do exactly that - by the way, stuck in cab with old driver on avenida corrientes - which has been here since the ancient days before planes were a thing - and reminescing how this road was fine back when 20 men could ride abreast - but not so far today when 3 cars and a bus can)
mircea_popescu: as factual as it gets, most buildings on eitehr side HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THOSE HORSES.
midnightmagic: No, it's not, but I mention it as an example of why the notion itself is problematic that infants should die in order that the remainder be presumed strong.
mircea_popescu: the whole argument is that there's nothing wrong with infant and generally youth mortality IN PRINCIPLE.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic he was 70ish, and was a small child at the time.
midnightmagic: He hated them. He liked nice horses but as a whole found them capricious and unpredictable beasts harder to maintain than an old austin.
midnightmagic: I'm going to go murder some videogame people and make some geeks scream futilely at their TVs now; I mention this mostly to excuse myself from present conversation and so as not to exit said chat more rudely than I must. As always, nice to be able to use words bigger than two syllables, dude. \o
mircea_popescu: the ustards, as worthless as the middle east showed them
mircea_popescu: yet somehow inexplicably, the lengthy string of apologies and mp-worship does not seem to in any sense balance out the very short chain of vitriol and mp-bashing.
mircea_popescu: or stuck improvising for lack of viable strategy through events unfolding no one could have predicted, or or or.
mircea_popescu: they don't currently HAVE trillions, for any purpose, including feeding the apparatus.
PeterL: ;;later tell jurov could you look at CoinBr, seems whatever mircea_popescu did messed up the account balance
shinohai: congrats on getting phuctor back up and humming btw asciilifeform
phf: oh i should add date ranges to search..
mircea_popescu: i'm guessing users can't just re-enter their orders or something ? anyways.
mircea_popescu: in other news i see phuctor numbers marching steadily up, 440/562 by now ?
☟︎ gribble: Error: "aprendamos" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: here's a thought, nobody that needs to discuss computing in his dumb mother's tongue has what it takes to "luchar".
mircea_popescu: and fucking luchemos omfg. everything is wrong with these people. EVERYTHING
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm sorry, i can't go through the introduction
mircea_popescu: looky, even here, the faux is obvious : "solamente correos cifrados porfa thunderbird/enigmail" ? gimme a fucking break.
mircea_popescu: yes it will brain-parasite a bunch of retarded hablaespanoles.
mircea_popescu: "good this was changed, world wasn't doomed before". who the fuck is madduck
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am mostly reading the names so they're in the search.
mircea_popescu: moral being "don't use salt", nfi that anyone does/would.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-21 16:11 asciilifeform: where pgp seemed to 'threaten to go mainstream' and usg had not yet decided what to 'do about it'
phf: mircea_popescu: nah, worst case it doesn't return to a default (typically much more permissive) umask after handling the keys
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but for the record, the brief, illusory "wealth" rained on idiots like ers et all had much more to do with zimmerman's work than with, say, murdock's.
mircea_popescu: gnu mostly rode on the coattails of the pgp panic of 1990
phf: in the end wreckers ended up being much more effective against rms than esr's oss
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, he lives on a boat, what could possibly go wrong
mircea_popescu: [i suppose we're all too distant from our sailing ancestors to know what age at sea does to man]
mircea_popescu: didn't he have a webbegging page up for a new engine back when the lulz at him started ?
mircea_popescu: oh ers was just begging generically, at the same time orlov needed new engine
phf: esr is the guy who's into guns
mircea_popescu: in the first kind, random derp ends up with some chumpatronium. being random he is randomly distributed re skill, and normally the juice leaves him. similarly if i took a marketable blonde and told her to go live with random guy on the street, which she will because they do what i say, he'll STILL manage to lose her over time.
mircea_popescu: in the second kind, highly intelligent BUT SPECIFICALLY LOBOTOMIZED male is gently nudged back into the pen.\
mircea_popescu: very. first - guy is specifically unselected. second - guy is specifically selected.
mircea_popescu: there's a deep reason that works, and that deep reason is that these aren't whole men.
phf: none of these people are hired to do something out of their nature, they show up how they are, hence lobotomized
mircea_popescu: knowing as we do in fact know that children normally develop into whole men almost half of the time, their presence is proof of artifice,
mircea_popescu: not anymore than "can i trust this eunuch with my dear roxy" is political.
mircea_popescu: it's a case of "the cure seeker never really needed a cure - magic was always in him ; the non-seeker... well..."
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, could have done lots of damage. opened joint-venture with iran in lebanon lol.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell trinque the problem with deedbot being offline is that i am forced into the dilemma of either turn ben_vulpes req for voice down, or else voice people outside of the model. i don't like either horn, at all.
mircea_popescu: they are both selected for dullness, arguably of distinct kinds, but ultimately very much the same : they're the sort women want to raise their babies [if not to make their babies].
mircea_popescu: if roxy goes into the bath in front of the trusty eunuch, is she a pile of bricks ?
phf: also stories about dimwits getting genie bottles always have some moral to them that's applicable to "real life". there's really no moral to solomon getting genie bottle, since solomon is that with or without one
mircea_popescu: is it a wall, that the impotent can not fuck, for the not fucking ?
mircea_popescu: phf this breaks down once moses gets box of covenant ?
mircea_popescu: [hence why jews have the best old stories - they had the courage to do what good writers always do, go in the middle and subvert the trope]
mircea_popescu: you lot can not be trusted. the smarter you get, the less you can be trusted not to be dumb.
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't think so, since moses was a man on a mission from god, it would be a distraction for him (from the mission) to choose to become a magi, hence the story
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this, incidentally, is the one cure / amulet of protection / curse removal / whatever actually worth finding.
mircea_popescu: no, no, protect smart people from scaling up the dumb.
mircea_popescu: it's almost as if the meta-brain was made of plasticine, and with a fixed origin. yes you can make it go as far in one direction as you want, but this thins it out in all others, meaning there's an exponential relation between "furthest out" and "furthest in" points
mircea_popescu: suppose you have 3.141592 squnits of brain. you get the option of making it into a circle [mens sana in corpore sano!!1] and you are guaranteed to be no dumber than 1.
mircea_popescu: should you decide to make it go 72 units to the left, which you can do, what guarantee you can offer re "shortest distance from origin" ?
mircea_popescu: 72 * 0.0001 = 0.0072, and allow me to remind you what the mathematical notion of optimal play is
mircea_popescu: it specifically says you're not supposed to play as a 0.00x
mircea_popescu: the problem with the "we'll just superimpose differently spiked circles into this ball of wrecking" solution is that well...
mircea_popescu: but the problem here to my eyes is that there really is no motherfucking reason for the meta-brain to act like if made of plasticine. really, figuring out the memory hole effect is THAT hard ?
mircea_popescu: much like independence is deliberately not taught to girl-cows in agrarian societies, sanity is deliverately anti-taught to smart kids in socialism. so what ?
mircea_popescu: you should, at least in fucking principle, get infinitely better results by just picking all the easy fruits and normalizing everyone's head to fucking semblance of sanity.
mircea_popescu: well, fuck you. my teleomers lengthen by watching others shorten, just like my cock gets hard by watching women spend each other.
trinque: sorry about that guys. I left a tcpdump running to catch the SSL weird and filled my disk
gribble: Error: "b" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: maybe the new bash works by searching for "fucking bash"
copumpkin: "Your withdrawal request has been received and will be processed. Note that all withdrawals are verified manually, and they may take up to 48 hours for approval. If 48 hours have ellapsed and you still haven't received your bitcoins please contact mircea_popescu in #bitcoin-assets. Note that if your account at the time of processing holds fewer BTC than your withdrawal, this order will be executed up to that limit. Also, please
copumpkin: consider rating mircea_popescu with gribble."
copumpkin: 2) outdated channel recommendation
copumpkin: mircea_popescu: also, as general good practice, it'd probably be good to include the address and amount of the withdrawal in the message, perhaps with a date. Currently the message is a constant, so the signature on it feels a little less valuable
mircea_popescu: not so sure that is good practice, general or otherwise.
copumpkin: there's no acknowledgment of the parameters of the withdrawal. For all I know you think I want a completely different amount, to a completely different address :P
copumpkin: the only way I'll find out is by waiting 48 hours, at which point it'll be too late
mircea_popescu: it'll be too late for what ? i have your signed slip, it's what it is.
copumpkin: yes, but I have no receipt acknowledgment of that signed slip. You've just acknowledged getting some slip, and are not committing to any particular slip of mine. If you mess up your book-keeping, you might dig up an old signed slip of mine making a different request to a different address, and I'd have nothing to talk to you about until after it was too late
mircea_popescu: a) "too late" for what ; b) if there's an old slip of yours, it either has an address that was paid in it or not. if it does, then it doens't matter ; if it doesn't, you have a claim.
copumpkin: a) the coins have already been sent to the wrong place. Perhaps I'm not "liable" and have a claim, but it's adding inefficiency to the system if you have to cover for a mistake which could've been avoided in the first place
mircea_popescu: and there's no inefficiency in the system as it is, for it is simple. the inefficiency begins once you expect to have a 2nd "superior" channel on top of the slips. which will then have to be managed.
copumpkin: all I'm saying is that with today's system, I have no cryptographic paper trail that you've actually received the commands I expect you to have received
copumpkin: your gpg-centric system could give me that by simply signing a fingerprint of my commands
copumpkin: I could then store those signatures and chew you out publicly in the case of a dispute
copumpkin: "look, mircea said he received my sell order, but now he's claiming he didn't"
mircea_popescu: there's degrees there. the guarantee you're offered is that you won't be losing your balance ; not that you won't have orders lost.
copumpkin: that's fine. But signing my slips still gives me a verifiable paper trail of the things I attempted to have you do, whether or not you guarantee doing them. It gives me an avenue to claim that you've at least seen and acknowledged an order, even if execution is best-effort
mircea_popescu: this "that's fine" device, lolz. what's it supposed to accomplish ? you can't set aside what i say.
copumpkin: I'm saying that it's fine if you don't honor a sell order of mine
copumpkin: if you don't honor a withdrawal, that's different
copumpkin: "but I never received it", he says on public form
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as you get your stat signed and timestamped, you should be fine.
copumpkin: you can keep claiming you never received my withdrawal request
copumpkin: so I claim on reddit that I have a balance, and you keep claiming that you never get my orders
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, reddit/bitcoin apparently mass-downvoting the story of bitbet NOT being a scam ?
copumpkin: in some sort of suitable public shaming forum, like this one
copumpkin: I'd go say "yo mircea, where's my fucking money"
copumpkin: the folks in here support you by default
copumpkin: before they accept my claims that you're being dishonest, they'll want proof that I actually asked you for money
mircea_popescu: and so we go through this a coupla times and then i go you know what, just register a deed already, this is getting ridiculous
copumpkin: or I could just present a signed slip
mircea_popescu: such as for instance in divorce proceedings, or whatever the fuck.
mircea_popescu: mpex is made to serve a certain view on this world, not all possible views.
mircea_popescu: all possible views that don't conform can take a hike.
copumpkin: you already have something signed by me
copumpkin: if my estranged wife goes to you and asks for it
copumpkin: that can still be held against me in divorce proceedings as evidence
mircea_popescu: you can sign any amount of withdrawals you want for any arbitrary funds you don't have. it proves exactly nothing.
copumpkin: but you've already signed my STAT output
copumpkin: why is it any different to sign my slip asking for a subset of that?
mircea_popescu: the stat is a single item. these are separable for reasons.
mircea_popescu: nobody asked you to do your stat process in the same way you do other processes.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo re lafond's article - iirc you can buy surplus cruisers ; as well as various knick-knacks like body armor from afficionado stores (here they're called cotillon stores).
mircea_popescu: it's not illegal until you actually try to make an arrest or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: i'd have thought nicely made wheel out of paramagnetic alloy ; then vary a field.
mircea_popescu: not even so expensive, given that iron is crazy like that.
mircea_popescu: of course i wasn't thinking of pig iron, rather, one of the fiberglass / ceramic sorta things with high magnetic dust included.
ben_vulpes: what gulag name will you use for this gig?
mircea_popescu: the occurence of things that can't happen always takes place in april.
midnightmagic: Where *would* the trail be in the event a court were seeking assets.
midnightmagic: MPEX would have to cooperate absent signed receipts sent to the user.
midnightmagic: (In order for the hypothetical discovery to successfully take place, I mean.)
mircea_popescu: mpex is very carefully designed with various such tradeoffs considered, an' i think i've done enough free consulting on the topic for one day.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic the only legal proceeding contemplated will go on here. anyone seeking justice in the new world must have a wot presence.
midnightmagic: I *think* the OTR protocol uses a revealed MAC between the parties *but more crucially, a stream cipher for malleable encryption* so that at explicit termination of the conversation neither party can claim later that the other one definitely wrote something specific in the log of each. The deniable authentication protocol therein doesn't reveal it to the public -- only to the other party. Publically
midnightmagic: revealing the key would break the forward secrecy. But I know what you mean. Still, as described all an eavesdropper would have to do to fairly strongly prove the authenticity of the message is stamp it and assert that there's no evidence the pubkey was revealed before then. That is, a third-party passively listening to the conversation with self-assured reliability could watch it happen, then obse
midnightmagic: rve the pubkey was revealed, and itself could assert that the one happened before the other. The difference is subtle. In OTR the keys involved are supposed to be shredded at termination of the conversation. copumpkin here is looking specifically for non-repudiability post-hoc which neither OTR nor your described scheme could give him.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform while it's true that the otr as implemented for say irc is dubious at best, his point remains :
midnightmagic: On the other hand, this way copumpkin -- I think -- can state things about the transaction that can't be known and nobody can say different. And MP for that matter, which reduces the transaction to trust.
midnightmagic: "I warrant I will do this when you ask." "I'm asking."
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic the chief problem here is that time has gone by and left copumpkin behind. he's still in this lulzy 2012 where bitcoin was a geek thing and the fashion of believing "technology will supplant humans" went unchallenged, in their own circles.
mircea_popescu: it's dead and buried by now, under a pile of ridicule.
midnightmagic: copumpkin is pretty realistic about things I think. :)
mircea_popescu: this particular fashion is more antiquated than disco.
mircea_popescu: occasionally reared its head around bitbet, "oh, you should do it so -and -so provably". met with the universal "fuck you, there's no way out of trust." which, obviously, instructed those who it instructed and washed off the rest.
mircea_popescu: tech is a tool. yes, there are very good places where making things work by the cold equations makes sense.
mircea_popescu: this is neither universally the solution, nor any sort of mystical geek messiah.
mircea_popescu: (news at 11, you'll still have to talk to people, ipad or no ipad.)
midnightmagic: I could see that sort of thing (non-repudiability) being useful for something like an exchange which operates under some kind of public law.
copumpkin: not sure I ever claimed otherwise :)
copumpkin: but feel free to demolish that argument I never made
mircea_popescu: copumpkin excuse me while i strawman you into a convenient position for the benefit of the kids.
mircea_popescu: i already had my sammich, doing a review of wild things, of all things. anyone saw it ?
punkman: they even had sequels iirc
mircea_popescu: apparently, i'm discovering, this is an entire market vertical, "young women + illegal sex". usually school setting, always some sort of lawsuit as to rape, corruption, what have you.
midnightmagic: fwiw, I don't have much of an opinion one way or another. If I went into it knowing this were the case, I could find it very useful to have this property in my transactions with, say MPEX. But for, say, a *deposit address* on a webpage for an exchange, I *would* want non-repudiability as per, say, TLS message authentication extension in RFC .. hrm. That RFC where it's defined but was never implemen
midnightmagic: ted, to prove "hey, this is the address they gave me, now they're saying they didn't receive anything but look at this txid."
midnightmagic: The payment protocol thingy Gavin did *can have* also the property of saving signed invoices for the client including such information but nobody cares and there hasn't been a high-profile use of the PP where a dispute ensued.
mircea_popescu: mpex being, today as it was when it got started, exactly the ONLY bitcoin service doing this.
mircea_popescu: everyone else is "well this is what we print on the screen" and that's that.
mircea_popescu: somehow, nobody has found it their life's mission to badger everyone into the dust for this, however.
mircea_popescu: and for that matter i've yet to hear someone go "i'm not sending anything to derpy webwallet / webexchange / webusgtronism because htey don't gpg sign the address"
☟︎ midnightmagic: I think I'm one of.. perhaps two people requesting it or trying to do something about it. We never know we need that sort of thing until one day we do.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-21 21:25 mircea_popescu: and for that matter i've yet to hear someone go "i'm not sending anything to derpy webwallet / webexchange / webusgtronism because htey don't gpg sign the address"
mircea_popescu: worst day in teh history of reddit, when it turns out that service closure WASNT scam.
phf: i suspect snr on reddit is so low the event is not even going to be perceived as something that requires a cover up on such articulated terms. the burying is something in the range between "confederate flag? downvote." and "mircea? something not scam? downvote."
mircea_popescu: phf if you peruse the thing it's obvious where it's at, the 10 dollars or less bin.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kids gotta go somewhere. they're not allowed almost anywhere else.
mircea_popescu: well... reddit'll have them, and what are they to do. let the internet age pass them by ? miss out on the informational superhighway ?
mircea_popescu: are they not people ? if you fuck them in the ass do they not bleed ?
mod6: oooh, i heard about that 'information superhighway thingy'. they say we'll all be doing everything in 'Virtual Reality' in a few years.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-21 21:39 asciilifeform: i have nfi why anyone here even bothers with reddit today.
mats: too bad I moved, no poop for you
mircea_popescu: check it out, fmt provider. they sell the shit you give them for free ?!
mircea_popescu: at least the cows get a quarter per gallon for the milk the supermarket sells at a dollar a liter.
mats: i have desirable poo
shinohai: iirc the Romans taxed urine traders, but did not know there was a thriving stool market.
mats: i was unemployed for a few months last year and i looked into donating bodily excretions, ie, poo, blood, semen
mats: the blood thing worked out handily but i never got anything better than food gift cards and free cookies, juice
mats: semen didn't work out so gud since i was unemployed and, you know, not-white, not-six-foot, etc
mircea_popescu: on the grounds that penis too small to get in normal way anyway
mats: i liked you better when you were busy hating yourself
mats: anglos go rite to hell, etc
ben_vulpes: one thing i know to be true in this world
ben_vulpes: and that is that if someone claims a software library to be "minimalist" or "easy", they are lying through their goddamn teeth
ben_vulpes: "minimalist" means "i made an epic shitton of assumptions and then laid down a zillion lines of code in support of those assumptions"
ben_vulpes: "easy" means "this shit is so complex it will take you a month to realize that it never worked in the first place"
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i don't know on what basis you think this is relevant to any particular programming language
ben_vulpes: eg common lisp has grown a decent tumor of the shit lately
ben_vulpes: lately being, oh, my entire tenure on earth
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> "easy" means "this shit is so complex it will take you a month to realize that it never worked in the first place" << lol
shinohai: It probably isn't ben_vulpes just the first language that came to mind.
trinque: ben_vulpes: yes but.. is it intuitive?