a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 22:08 gabriel_laddel: Does anyone know of / has created a database of hardware offerings from various vendors?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 23:46 mod6: It was my first hunch, during a pre-emptive go around with this to not place the makefiles in with current source base -- as pressed out via V.
mod6: I can't make heads or tails out out of what you're saying there asciilifeform.
mod6: When you come back, maybe we can discuss what you're trying to exactly say.
mod6: oh, if you're saying that the rotor is no longer needed, i can agree with that. to an extent anyway.
☟︎ mod6: the two .sh scripts you have in there can be integrated into the makefiles directly i think. however, we'll still need the openssl-004-musl-termios.patch and rotor_buildroot_dot_config
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 00:28 mod6: oh, if you're saying that the rotor is no longer needed, i can agree with that. to an extent anyway.
mod6: oh yeah, we're not reall messing with any of that stuff. stator hasn't been a part of the 'orchastra' for some time now.
mod6: so, im not 100% off the top of my head, but getting rid of the two rotor build script and integrating that portion into our makefiles ~might~ resolve at least part of the source redundancy issue.
shinohai: Seriously mod6 it's coming along great, today's makefile build was so easy these Eulora noobs could probably do it.
mod6: Actually, I forgot, trinque already did that part. Makefile.rotor exists.
mod6: It would probably need some tweaks in there ... hmm.
mod6: Well, if it could be done without having to move anything that is already in place (as far as bitcoin is concerned), then it might work out alright.
mod6: Will try to work that out.
mod6: This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
mod6: The simplest solution would be to perhaps have a deedified tarball of makefiles, much like trinque already has, get the deed, verifiy it, decode it, extract it, navigate to the make script and `make`.
mod6: Then let the makefiles do all the rest of the heavy lifting.
deedbot: boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: i've got: 72.83.9.184 listed on the foundation site. is it back up now with different ip alf?
boolcrap: they got lots of peanut bars and seltzer water
mod6: asciilifeform: verified, thanks!
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [19:19:02] <mircea_popescu> yeah but the wrong one.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [19:19:02] <mircea_popescu> yeah but the wrong one.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger can we stop having this "multiline" bs unless specifically togled on somehow ?
☟︎ scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [23:52:51] <mod6> this is because the makefile process does it's own V press.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [23:59:57] <mod6> Altogether, since we have V, I like the idea of keeping things like makefiles and buildscripts out of the main source tree. One can get V, press the makefile project. Run a `make`, which will in-turn, press everything via V and then build with buildroot.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu>
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160908/#1160 << so basically we got v running twice ? << yeah, which wont do. after my monologue earlier, I have a hunch that I might be able to get it down to a single press.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [23:52:51] <mod6> this is because the makefile process does it's own V press.
mod6: well it's earliest implementation, was a clone of our build scripts, which, used V to pull and press the source.
mod6: anyway, i might be able to get it so that you press the tree, including the makefiles, and then just build.
mircea_popescu: ok let's approach it this way : what is so special about the make files that they get their own tree ? why not say, all .c files get their own, all .h files get their separate own ? inasmuch as you can't use the makefiles without the sources, they belong in the same tree as the sources.
mod6: (working on that / testing it now)
mod6: yeah, after discussing with myself in here mainly, i'm not in love with that solution either.
mod6: i could go on here.. but let's just say i didn't think it all the way through.
mod6: i'll see where i can get to with this new idea. however, a person would have to do this to build the entire thing: get v; verify v; put vpatches, seals, and keys in place; press; then navigate to pressed dir, then `make`.
☟︎ mod6: does this seem acceptable?
mod6: well, one would still need to press everything out, which includes the source and makefiles in this case.
mod6: which, seems to be the "pistols" way
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> " then navigate to pressed dir, " << i mean. << ah, ok yeah one ~might~ be able to do that. not an expert on make tho.
mod6: that's the easy part imho. the hard part is getting v, et. al., set up.
mod6: ok. that's a minor consideration.
mod6: not a problem then.
mod6: the setup of v; verify v; place everything where it needs to go, etc.
mod6: for you and I, this is routine.
mod6: for most people, not so.
deedbot: boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: thanks Gentlemen. I'll keep polishing here. more to come, I'm sure.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 21:58 mircea_popescu: wait, the clim authoritative spec exists as a html ?!
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 21:44 gabriel_laddel: I'm translating the spec from HTML to CLIM.
mircea_popescu: the ~only possible interpretation is that people simply suck at knowing what they got.
phf: fwiw dpans has a copy of tex source, first or second to last draft before the standard was sent over to ansi. there's two projects that cleanup that tex, one is dpans2texi which produces texinfo formatted (this is what i use from emacs) and another by some russians that produces a clean pdf with hyperlinks
phf: i have an ansi copy, it's a piece of shit though
phf: why is that? i've never tried
phf: ah, i see. "bible paper vs laserpaper"
phf: one day orcs perhaps will use it to last through the night, as a kindle
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:11 mircea_popescu: why does make run a v anywya ?
trinque: in no small part because V is utterly useful as a tool on its own
trinque: needs to end up in /usr/local/bin/v handily
phf: asciilifeform: have you tried contacting one of the dedicated bible printing shops? they could possibly do a small batch for you. spend int, sell the rest through wot
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:17 mod6: i'll see where i can get to with this new idea. however, a person would have to do this to build the entire thing: get v; verify v; put vpatches, seals, and keys in place; press; then navigate to pressed dir, then `make`.
trinque: I use sync in my instructions for logbot
phf: asciilifeform: you don't want to know.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:22 asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
trinque: foundation signs release, shmoe on street uses
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:09 mircea_popescu: Framedragger can we stop having this "multiline" bs unless specifically togled on somehow ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:22 asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's not bikeshedding when i actually use it.
mod6: ah, ok then. have a good night.
deedbot: boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 18:58 asciilifeform: boeck et al is to reduce the risk that taleb shows up here. etc
pete_dushenski: blaming the 'atmosphere' on the modest (but non-zero!) number of folks walking through the #trilema door is akin to blaming 'society' that you can't get an erection. it's not the talking head's fault that your wife's ugly.
pete_dushenski: strange market forces observation of the day : moving guys (ie. pure muscle) command the same going rate as qualified plumbers (ie. skilled trade). perhaps both are equally scarce relative to demand, or else the mover's rates just appear higher due to higher-than-plumber overhead (trucks, mechanics, garages, etc.). either way, it's always fun to figure out how the cookie crumbles.
pete_dushenski: both are ~$60/hr if anyone cares to compare their geography at home
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 17:14 PeterL: speaking of books, mircea_popescu have you read "The Prince" by Machiavelli? I have been reading it and for some reason it made me think of you (though I expect you would read it in the original Italian?)
pete_dushenski: re: taleb, it's also worth noting that way back in 2014 i was ~the sole voice saying that camgirl vids weren't going to turn his crank and bring him here, in the face of "oh but he's still a dude, pete" opposition, no less. whereas alf regularly gets to say "i told you so" whenever another flaw in the shitstack of personal computing is revealed, or mp whenever another usg muppet hoists himself on his own
pete_dushenski: petard, it's a rare treat for yours truly to be able to say as much in this company.
pete_dushenski: obviously, "i told you so" and $5 will buy you coffee. and that it used to be $2 for coffee is neither here nor there.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 17:40 asciilifeform: 'Data coming from true random number generators is never 100% random. I am aware of no exceptions. Whitening is required in all cases before the data is suitable for use in cryptography.' << from first link
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 18:37 mircea_popescu: at least hungarians know they've been cursed with stupid.
pete_dushenski: nvm that jalopnik is a gawker property. if you stick with their hungarian writers, particularly peter orosz and mate petrany, you'll learn some mega-nifty and uber-arcane shit.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 18:49 mircea_popescu: gavin is ~a used cumsock.
pete_dushenski:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537575 << this ties in very neatly the never-ending thread about the meaning and definition of intelligence, particularly the angle about 'intelligent' being best used to describe an individual's actions ex post facto. injun is a genius only for as long as his world is of low complexity. when whitey comes over and opens pandora's box on his ass, complexity explodes and
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 19:04 asciilifeform: british soldiers carting in convoy of rotgut barrels to distribute to australian abos, betcha, also said 'drunks' choices!'
pete_dushenski: overwhelming majority of redmen are steamrolled by its sheer (liquid) mass.
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: I have not seen mats.
Framedragger: will make it so previous links on e.g. your site don't break; just that default links generated when clicking don't include the thing
Framedragger: omg attempting
https on trilema.com gives common name = server1.nigger.com, email = ssl@server1.nigger.com -- l0l0l.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-09: [06:35:04] <Framedragger> will make it so previous links on e.g. your site don't break; just that default links generated when clicking don't include the thing
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: we could make it work on udp, and initiate sessions through encrypting a large prime to the destination's key or some equivalent implementation, so we get to test alf's new-internet-order ideas also.
mircea_popescu:
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
mircea_popescu: "who are you ?" "i am my V and .sig machine" is a perfectly fine response.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 10:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.
mircea_popescu: anyway. this "separation of concerns" objection would have a lot more meat on its imaginary bones if there actually eixsted any sort of gossipd. as there doesn't, the objection has no legs to stand on.
Framedragger: why not have p2p client for stuff like this but which would be agnostic to internals of V, and separate from V? it can use V's .wot, tho
mircea_popescu: Framedragger gotta start somewhere. but yes, you intuit correctly, that's where it's headed.
Framedragger: right. wonder if it's any harder to have the p2p part be separate. it can create a local mountpoint which would just be additional folders/files for V to process
mircea_popescu: Framedragger well the whole point is to stop wondering.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: also, talk about increased attack surface / complexity
mircea_popescu: most designs suffer a lot of changes when one tries to actually implement them, which is why prototypes exist in the first place.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can't "bolt things" to items that do not exist.
mircea_popescu: still, you know - most everything extant today started life as a nodule on something else. nothing wrong with this in principle.
mircea_popescu: eventually they separate, if they do, or the nodule dies off/gets resorbed in the main trunk, or the trunk dies off and the nodule continues it instead, or or or.
mircea_popescu: certainly it is not contemplated here thatg anyone would be forced to run v to get gossipd. heck, i don't even believe such "forcing" would be in principle possible.
shinohai wonders if asciilifeform has a binder full of napkin drawings in his lab
mircea_popescu: well, the principal difference between gossipd-for-v and gossipd-proper is that v operates on signed matter exclusively ; gossipd-proper operates on unsigned matter exclusively.
deedbot: vivas82 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: this is not only a ridiculous hope, but contrary to design principle. the point of gossipd is that he sees.
mircea_popescu: anyway. identity doesn't need signature to be checked. behold :
mircea_popescu: !!rate deedbot 1 How are you gonna check it's really me, bitch ?
mircea_popescu: a gossipd that requires me to sign anything is not to any degree interesting.
mircea_popescu: i'll just continue using my current system, because such a gossipd would be an outrageous degradation of everything.
mircea_popescu: it quickly becomes dubious. because a signature permits a certain relationship. whereas gossipd rests on dubious relationships.
mircea_popescu: yeah, they are. much like deedbot distinguishes above.
mircea_popescu: here's the handshake : syn -> 5db1fee4b5703808c48078a76768b155b421b210c0761cd6a5d223f4d99f1eaa -> 1337 -> ack.
mircea_popescu: you're switching things. the point is that deedbot knows it is really me ; not vice-versa.
mircea_popescu: so i signed nothing and yet IT (and only it) could know it was me. this is important.
mircea_popescu: what's more important is that gossipd works like otp : "sure you can decrypt this text mr evil. WHAT would you like it to decrypt to ?"
mircea_popescu: no "you can't decrypt it". but "you can decrypt it, of course. to anything you wish."|
mircea_popescu: it's my considered oppinion it does, if used as above.
mircea_popescu: in any case rsa signatures are contrary to this, however.
mircea_popescu: the "decrypt to whatever you want" part is not about the rsagram itself, but about the structure of relationships.
mircea_popescu: if you have signed matter, then definite things can be said. otherwise - you need a priest.
shinohai: Priests can withold absolution however
mircea_popescu: shinohai we'rte talking from the pov of the lord not the pleb here. priest does exactly as told or else fucks goats in the receptive sense of the term.
mircea_popescu: except a working model of 1 is already both deployed and theoretically understood, as described above.
mircea_popescu: understand, from the fact you observe deedbot has accepted my order you do not know anything other than that - to DEEDBOT it is acceptable. ie, you're uysing a priest. this is fine.
mircea_popescu: how not ? again. syn -> 5db1fee4b5703808c48078a76768b155b421b210c0761cd6a5d223f4d99f1eaa -> 1337 -> ack.
mircea_popescu: it does. because if it doesn't know me, it can't answer to my syn now can it.
mircea_popescu: i'd say it's actually "nothing to all comers" guaranteedly, you can't break this even if you want to.
mircea_popescu: a network between a and b who have BOTH been replaced ?
mircea_popescu: ah, with an invariant c. so how do you break it ? or what ?
mircea_popescu: i just dunno what you're saying starting 8 lines ago. "<asciilifeform> it could if you were both sybils today."
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> but, to briefly rewind, << and following. static linking, not dynamic linking. your "the mechanism described in mircea_popescu's sketch." symbol is not acceptabru.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-09: [12:36:29] <mircea_popescu> except a working model of 1 is already both deployed and theoretically understood, as described above.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-09: [12:37:26] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: deedbot is not a working model of 1packetron omfg
mircea_popescu: how would you send otps to check to a person you don't know ?
mircea_popescu: it does currently extend the courtesy of replying to unknowns, but this is not required.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well yes restate the whole thing. apparently there's a knot somewhere.
Framedragger: ah, you mean that it could restrict sending challenges to gpg identities that it *already* knows about (l1 / l2 / whatever)?
mircea_popescu: you still can't answer, for lack of a way to form your answer.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i mean it already does this lol. necessarily.
mircea_popescu: how would it send a challende encrypted to a key it does not have ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: pull the key. which it effectively does with the `register` command
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is an orthogonal concern which entirely does not belong in this discussion.
Framedragger contemplates a PoC `register` attack on deedbot
mircea_popescu: just because owner currently automated a hole into the ship doesn't mean that hole doesn't come with a pre-made hatch.
Framedragger: then the argument does admittedly slide a little: yes okay, this is great that it can't be DoS'd that easily when the time comes; and yet it still has to parse multiple packets before it determines that hey, i don't know this fingerprint.
Framedragger: is rfc7413 even supported by any tcp stack tho? (inb4 all tcp stacks must die!1 [not disagreeing in principle])
mircea_popescu: (not to mention - you brought it up, entirely ungermane to the discussion, so you can't now detrimentally rely on it.)
mircea_popescu: how about we don't mix discussions of prototyping with discussion of random opsec challenges.
mircea_popescu: nobody afaik starts discussion of new car model with "Suppose the islamists invade our plant"
mircea_popescu: what, you're going to make a tank ? "new from mercedes. six gun ports."
mircea_popescu: if we have to leave freenode before gossipd is ready we'll reimplement ircd.
mircea_popescu: in the sense of how we implemented log bots that work, on the basis of whatever was there before, which apparently didn't work, or at least didn't work as well or w/e.
mircea_popescu: which, literally, six dude's servers, half of which provided by nsa.
mircea_popescu: get some of that lulzy "we know it's here but we can't turn it off because red tape" bonus going on.
mircea_popescu: but all this stuff aside, back to the important point here : the "gossipd-like" thing contemplated for moving signed material (ie, v stuff) around is very much a different beast from the actual gossipd, which doesn't work on signed material ; presumably doesn't work on tcp etc.
mircea_popescu: now, taking a tiny incremental step by providing redundancy for v while at the same time trying a udp implementation si a very sensible move at this juncture.
mircea_popescu: (redundancy for v - meant strictly in the sense of, an alternative to moving tarball by hand)
PeterL: what keeps you from moving a signed message thorugh gossipd?
Framedragger: semi-orthogonal (but not too orthogonal): ditching the conceptual level for a second and thinking about mundane reality, would a new transport layer even *work* given current internet infrastructure? there are problems with ICMP traffic on some ISPs (sure, ISPs should die anyway, and esp. those i hear you say.) this can be tested to some extent, hm.
mircea_popescu: signatgures have their utility. they have been (perhaps deliberately, in any case stupidly) misused by the usg.cypherpunk "movement".
mircea_popescu: it's not that i'm against signatures or anything of the sort. it's just that i understand their domain. an item is signed when the auctorial intention is "for this to stand now and forever to any and all who may come".
mircea_popescu: gossipd does "for friends ears only". and the only way to make sure that can't happen, si by signing things. because once signed, they're definitionally for everyone equally well.
mircea_popescu: in short, i oppose the socially destructuring, anti elitist and equalitarian nature of signatures.
Framedragger: btw wouldn't "nothing signed" gossipd reality actually be not "only among chosen clique" but rather "only chosen among clique [so, okay, not for all] plus whoever listens to internet backbone including all teh agencies"?
Framedragger: (i am aware that proper gossipd doesn't have to run over internet)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if you're not connected, how do you distinguish what was said from what might have been said from what wasn't actually said ?
mircea_popescu: that's the otp-likeness contemplated, you know the place where this is discussed in the logs ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: statistical models? sure, no *guarantee*.
mircea_popescu: statistical models only work on statistical data. ie, flat.
mircea_popescu: it may be flattenable, and a large part of what we'll be doing is explore those graphs etc, but atm this is premature, we don't even have a prototype.
mircea_popescu: (note however that "statistical models" are so horrible in doing simple things such as "election outcome" prediction as to not lend much credence to this theory.)
Framedragger: maybe. and i agree that without prototype difficult to talk of this anyway
mircea_popescu: but, importantly, statistics works on datapoints - which are each as much a datapoint as all the others ! this is major.
mircea_popescu: in fact, it's even aware of this ; and it has some (primitive, axe hewn) methods to use the proper space to "improve" its data
mircea_popescu: for instance by rejecting outliers in a set. what you're doing then, in proper terms, is saying "since we have all this space left in the hierarchy cube, how about we use it to improve the dataset while still pretending it's just a sheet"
Framedragger: yes this is lulzy and a disservice and i agree the reputation is not insanely great.., so to speak.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: how about i (an nsa employee, say) just make a filter which grabs all observed gossipd traffic (packet timing or w/e, and if it's an actually new transmission protocol, then supreme joy is me) and send it for further analysis. i shall assume that while it's not certain which messages are legit and which are not, the offending t3rr0rist group is too lazy to transmit proper false positives to provide noise,
Framedragger: besides, they'd get confused themselves, what with deliberately no message authenticity; and we shall have a good time. am i stretching here?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so you do everyone the favour of taking out the lazy "terrorist" groups ? thank you ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno when or why the prevailing notion of "software" and "technology", at least in english and its dominions, became "it is for to make ordinary people (ie, rank imbeciles) like gods!"
Framedragger: and gossipd without any auth whatsoever wouldn't really be that? in all honesty, i should reread the spec, which is probably outdated, and log search sucks, fml
mircea_popescu: it... isn't. it fucking isn't. the point of technology is the complete and utter oppression of idiots.
mircea_popescu: not really. there's no record that he went and gave it to retards.
mircea_popescu: on the contrary - he stole it to the sort of retards who'd pick the large pile of bones skins and fat
mircea_popescu: and gave it to the smart guys who tohught to pile all the meat in the smalelr pile.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so the myth was reinterpreted, by later imbeciles, who don't even speak greek.
Framedragger: true that. goes the extra way to fuck women, metamorphosis and all, so i'll give him that tho
mircea_popescu: but anyway - the greek idea of gods doesn't have them as a sort of christian deity, omnipotent, all wise etc. it's not fucking allah.
mircea_popescu: it's zeus, a sort of nero, the overpowerful lucky bastard.
mircea_popescu: anyway. prometeus stole from the dumb to give to the smart.
mircea_popescu: obv, the dumb had something to steal the smart wanted. there'd be no story otherwise.
mircea_popescu: human tards wondered about greek fire for 12 centuries.
mircea_popescu: the principal limit is in people's heads, not in the fucking reality surroundant.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know what also is tricky ? anal sex.
mircea_popescu: point remains this is one of the most basic items of civilisation. it's been gotten right by most cultures throughout the many decades.
mircea_popescu: nobody asks you to use the cheapest fucking potmetal you can find.
mircea_popescu: sure, sure. a proper alloy saves you from shitty geometry, but you can't use zamac.
mircea_popescu: lulzy intro : ro construction codes throughout fully banned aluminum wiring, to the point they'd hang you.
mircea_popescu: this went away. about the time the idiot us-style builders moved in.
Framedragger: [OT just for the record, it seems that rfc 7413 ("tcp fast open") won't do any good because (lo and behold) not only would it not save against syn floods, it'd actually introduce new attacks (2.2 and beyond). and existing mitigation techniques may not work. gotta love those people. yeah, fuck tcp.]
Framedragger: [like, *of course* the only reason we want a spec which allows for data in initial syn packet is for shitphones to be able to load google ads quicker. use for security???! nowai]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: that's what i'm worried about, you may have to burn IP, too. and i'm all up for mesh networks and post nuclear radio, but kinda sucks that the whole internet backbone may be incompatible with proper gossipd, gotta admit.
PeterL: asciilifeform don't you know the future is wireless power? We won't need all this copper running through our houses once we make the *tech breakthrough*!
mircea_popescu: oddly enough, they even went to the problem of copper-colouring it.
PeterL: and if you buy cheapo beef, there is lots of fat drippings to make candles with!
mircea_popescu: try doing this in practice with pure elemental copper.
mircea_popescu: also, pure coper comes native, if you live in a land that doesn't suck you can just get yourself a chunk from the local cave.
thestringpuller: Framedragger: just use apple's bluetooth earwaxphones << Glad I'm not the only one who discovered despite who clean I try to keep the headphones. Earwax gunks up into the metal screens and inevitably fucks up the sound.
mircea_popescu: how is it my kink ? i'm not the one living on the planet without copper deposits!
mircea_popescu: though i suppose it should be a bunch of tiny azn dicks rather than one big one... hm...
PeterL: I feel like BingoBoingo has not posted anything in a while ...
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mod6: Good news from lastnight: Was able to do some polishing and wrench turning to get the makefiles to utilize the pressed source in src/
mod6: Will have some more to report on in a few days. Salud!
mod6: interesting convo this am re: gossipd & v
mod6: <+mircea_popescu>
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present. << Sounds fair. Thanks for outlining this.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
mod6: <+asciilifeform>
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538037 << lel what has mircea_popescu been drinking...? << It is an intersting thought; a distributed V, which rails against the complaints of "omfg another centralized piece of equipment!!11"
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 10:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.
mod6: and mine can be used, 100% in the same way. im not even sure that i fully agree that mine should do what it does. you and I both, seperately have wrestled with this thought.
mod6: V has a future. interesting to think about where it may go from here.
mod6: someday, when we have a tmsr cryptolib & rsa-o-matic, maybe we can starting building a gossipd prototype.
☟︎ shinohai: mircea_popescu may have inhaled toxic black smoke from poorly manufactured Argentine electronics mod6
mod6: oh wait, forgot about the wonky-fan
mod6: yeah, forgot about that. anyway, i appreciate interesting ideas.
mod6: a lot of new questions and discussions will arise once someone starts to prototype gossipd out.
shinohai: I agree with trinque tho that V has a place in /usr/bin/local of the future
mod6: well, indeed, if it continues to be useful and oft used.
mod6: i need more coffee.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?
☟︎ mod6: i don't want to disagree with what I just said here: <+mod6> a lot of new questions and discussions will arise once someone starts to prototype gossipd out.
mod6: but, maybe the first step, to recognize Framedragger, is to update the spec. there has been much discussion about this, and maybe I'm having a hard time keeping all of the details in my head.
shinohai: I take it your female java shadow isn't there?
mod6: haha. indeed, hopefully will rid myself of these labors someday soon.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, is there such a thing as a gossipd spec even ? what's the current canonical version ?
mod6: i'd have to dig it up, but i thought there was a trilema that outlined the 'spec' back a while ago.
mircea_popescu: ima publish an updated thing, at least give discussion some sort of basis that's not 19 months out of date.
mod6: very much appreciated, and my apologies if the original is still on point.
mod6: more than anything, i just want to be able to contribue a bit better to these gossipd discussions - which will be a vital part of the infrastructure.
mod6: thanks mircea_popescu
phf: we had a thread about it two weeks ago, where the conclusion was that gossipd as written in the only available spec has all kinds of problems and shouldn't be implemented/used
mod6: phf: ah, indeed then, we should rework it with what we've since discussed and rethought since 2015 or whenever, and see if a prototyping process can begin.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 15:26 phf: btw is it possible to chosen-ciphertext attack gpg if it were to sit on the wire?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 14:36 mod6: someday, when we have a tmsr cryptolib & rsa-o-matic, maybe we can starting building a gossipd prototype.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 14:51 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?
phf: (that idea is actually introduced in original gossip spec, but it's not obvious without rereading relevant bits a few times that it allows you to have secondary key
mod6: and i suppose this makes it easier to swap out the station key and retain the royal key.
mod6: right. i think this whole topic is totally over my head these days.
mod6: i better reread all of this stuff :/
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 14:57 mircea_popescu: ok this is pretty scandalous.
mod6: asciilifeform: ah, ok.
mod6: i'll have to reread all of this stuff; i have difficulty with a mental model of this. but i do follow the detail points.
mod6: the whole picture tho; need the whole picture
mod6: i apparently need to read your blog more, at least, on the specifics of lisp-cpu via verilog & fpga
mod6: yah, totally a different ball of wax.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 15:12 asciilifeform: it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.
Framedragger: nonce + hmac? ah, but, hmac uses symmetric crypto oh noes :/
Framedragger: actually, nm. if you don't want to leak incremental info of this kind, i guess it does become more difficult
mircea_popescu: it gets worse, the concept of "incremental" is undefined.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: tho am not sure if it's necessarily bad, to leak incremental nonces. i mean, i know you don't want to leak one single useful bit to da enemy; i don't know if it's a practical constraint, even if it is laudible.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger understand what the problem is here. it's not that you give away the secret number 40084059534. it's that you give away the fact that you and X both somehow live in a world where ++ means something.
mircea_popescu: this is necessarily not gossipd / bitcoin / p2p world.
Framedragger: " 'how long node a and b have been in communion'" - right, that i can understand, that it's not good
mircea_popescu: not even just how long. it's just a sort of coupling. "these two have a solution to us army general problem"
mod6: its a good dialogue though.
phf: at least this time annotations don't include 1000 line log excerpts
mod6: when you think it's a good idea, we can add a project to tb0t if it seems prudent.
mircea_popescu: ok this multi-comment thing is getting out of hand. why not just think the thing through and say it once.
mircea_popescu: o hey, three comments on trilema plus twenty lines here.
mircea_popescu: but in other news, took delivery of proper copper cord ; should be interesting to notice how this one never ever blows up.
mod6: mircea_popescu: your lady's hand looked ghastly. she should get to slap the first born of all of the industrial leaders in .ar.
mod6: it looked as if someone lit off a M80 in her hand.
mircea_popescu: yes, pissing self is common in a) women, especially if well used (in practice, this is often seen around childbirth) ; b) scared people, especially if young ; c) electricity mishaps, especially if high voltage.
mod6: i don't know for sure. maybe "hand full of blackcats" or something. small firecrackers.
mod6: mircea_popescu: to her credit indeed. poor lady.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i had them replaced them with sane items, so they cut power, yes.
mircea_popescu: (there was a cold snap, and that place drew just about 19 amps consistently for days, i'm pretty sure)
mod6: wow, that seems high.
mod6: nevermind, im smoking crack
mircea_popescu: because houses are not usually heated on electric power ffs.
mircea_popescu: out of about thirty studios, twenty five respond, within a day mp has one dozen amply adequate locations for a casting.
mircea_popescu: out of about thirty agencies, five respond. mp is awestruck by just how retarded the people involved are.
mircea_popescu: "bail could be the full amount or 10% of the full amount" in small print.
ben_vulpes: i wonder if you can get a bulk discount for getting your kids out of us.jail?
ben_vulpes will be damn reluctant to bail offspring out
ben_vulpes: "what was the first rule? DON'T GET CAUGHT!"
mircea_popescu: hopefully b v gets daughters, they get to be 16, call weekly "dad... i'm in jail... because i'm pregnant..."
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, the expression also was, "to get caught".
ben_vulpes: any girls are getting implants, and the boys get a trip to india for the plastic
ben_vulpes: weekly abortions yikes what a nightmare
mircea_popescu was personally acquainted with lovely, bouncy redhead who got like a dozen in one year.
ben_vulpes: isn't there some risk to stacking them like that?
mircea_popescu: if you keep scraping eventually you reach the outside you know.
ben_vulpes: anyways, there's this porous not particularly bioreactive plastic some people think it fine to inject into the urethra
ben_vulpes: carries a positive charge, shreds sperm cell walls.
ben_vulpes: anyways, can be flushed right out with a gentle solvent.
mircea_popescu: sperm pipe. cum pipe is more like from prostate you know.
trinque now stuck imagining this stuff stuck in urethra
mircea_popescu recommends trinque undergo a recreational sounds session.
trinque: mircea_popescu: hey that has a handle you can pull, or so I gather
jurov: but ben_vulpes is proll going for remote activation by rsa sig via gossipd
mircea_popescu: btw jurov mind protesting the heteronormative pronz a little bit, i need something to counterbalance alf!
ben_vulpes: jurov: upside of the plastic is that it is porous and doesn't clog
mircea_popescu: from what i've seen, the porous stuff and the porous stuff only clogs.
jurov: ben_vulpes: but no rsa signatures re involved!
ben_vulpes: jurov: myeah i gave up on the cyberpunk dream of technology in my body a loooong time ago.
ben_vulpes: heh i actually remember when it was! 'diamond age' has a great gag where the poors with shitty ocular implants have to suffer viral ads all day and go insane
mircea_popescu: anyway, think of all the great stuff blockchain technologies allows, guise! you could have like, a satoshi dice based aviator's club, whereby the men all put their house keys in a pile and the women pick from there as previously, BUT whether the dick works or not is now blockchain lottery based!
ben_vulpes: viral in the sense of virii in the implants
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "clog" here meaning that jurovs valve needs blowing off.
jurov: ben_vulpes: unreleased sperm eventually just decays in the balls
ben_vulpes: something something alzheimers something something immune system
a111: Logged on 2016-01-08 00:12 asciilifeform: and even not considering this absurdity, you would have same problem as vasectomy patient (the sperm gets reabsorbed and your immune system begins to generate antibodies against it. with bonus measurable extra risk of alzheimer's)
ben_vulpes: i did eventually run the citation down, 'twas some less than thirty old men with beginning signs of alzheimers who realized they all had vasectomies
ben_vulpes: let's store all the sperm in the appendix
trinque: would not blow my mind that this leads towards autoimmune disorders
trinque: iirc there's speculation alzheimers *is* autoimmune
mircea_popescu: did i drop the "prionic" alt-explanation in log or no ? i... can't recall ?
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 22:00 mircea_popescu: they recently discovered that it's quite likely alzheimer's is a prion based infectious disease,
mircea_popescu cranks trilema, discovers no stan replies, is baffled by this development.
mircea_popescu: "kyle go clean your room this instant!" "sorry mom, i... i... i malloc'd my hands and i think there were some double free's in there or something!"
trinque: I can just throw it in the RSS list
jurov: i found whole discussion too funny, had to throw some 2c in on trilema
trinque: actually, can add !!subscribe for L1 which adds to RSS list, and then can be used for this or anything else that arises
ben_vulpes simply subscribed to the trilema comments feed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly more often as time goes by ; because the problem of sorting things by topics is becoming more pressing.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i'm not using a rss-tron anymore ; bots ruined me for it.
trinque: ah, possible with current feed eater.
trinque: it has a notion of to whom to send
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you know standing up a trinquebot isn't terrifically difficult
jurov: on second thought ... oops i inadvertently supported my point by leaking s3cr3t trilema email :( feel free to censor it
mircea_popescu: jurov you might have noticed it's not even in the contact list anymore.
mircea_popescu had girl swallow his cufflink (accidentally!), took her earrings in restitution. discovered that he kinda likes earring cufflinks.
ben_vulpes: how, praytell, does one swallow a cufflink accidentally?
shinohai: Did you get your cufflink back mircea_popescu ?
shinohai imagines many hours and a bottle of castor oil later ......
mircea_popescu: swallowing cufflinks accidentally not on the castor oil list of bad girl behaviours
ben_vulpes: put girl through sifter until cufflinks emerge
shinohai: "geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"
ben_vulpes: feed cufflinks to girl, put girl in polisher
ben_vulpes: putting girl in tumblr is a different hobby
ben_vulpes: put /dick/ in girl, put girl in tumblr.
mircea_popescu: eh, considering where you live, it's prolly in the tap water by now
ben_vulpes off to contemplate burning another fortune chasing a larger fortune
ben_vulpes: no that's floride, which is just as hallucinogenic as nitrous
ben_vulpes off to burn a fortune in a fit of pique
deedbot: vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.
vinimore: hi, I found a post in a blog about Eulora
vinimore: $register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D
jhvh1: thestringpuller: shinohai was last seen in #trilema 24 minutes and 9 seconds ago: <shinohai> "geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"
vinimore: Shinohai! you're the guy that I'm looking for!
shinohai: hi vinimore try comand again but replace $ with !!
vinimore: !!register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D
deedbot: Import failed for 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D.
a111: 2016-09-09 <shinohai> also o/ thestringpuller
phf: mircea_popescu: a111's been using $ for search though for a while now
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "In a twist of irony sure not lost to Qntra readers" ?
phf: mircea_popescu: so you're saying i should change $s too?
mircea_popescu: change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.
☟︎ shinohai thanks BingoBoingo for his patience as editor
mircea_popescu: deedbot got !!, jhvh1 got !~ and further bots will get further of these until we run out and move on to #? etc.
phf: can i nuke all control sequences and have $s exclusively as an equivalent two character operation?
phf: well, i think that a111 has only one responsibility, and that's searching though log, whatever else is added is superfluous, but $s's been internalized by, among other people, asciilifeform. i'd rather not see "$s ... ??? ffs!"
jhvh1: You have died of dysentery
vinimore: !!register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D
deedbot: 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D registered as vinimore.
shinohai: wait, mircea_popescu is making you an account vinimore
trinque: I hate when it puts a space in front too
shinohai didn't know Irssi was still in use
deedbot: vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: inb4 oh shit I gotta add threads to the rssatron nao
trinque: lol, that one's coming in a minute! measure twice subscribe once (TM) (R)
mircea_popescu: trinque if / when you implement the wallet thing you can even charge for this. i'd pay!
trinque: cool. wallet will come. for now, loss leader.
shinohai: !!deedbot tip trinque 1 bitcent