phf: trinque: probably same reason openbsd is not the blessed b-a target platform
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 22:58:15; mod6: How one builds the source is entire up to the user. There may be preferred way so of doing this, such as 'rotor' and so forth. And we'll participate in creating cookbooks and guides on how to do this. But we no longer are going to fight through these environment problems.
trinque: asciilifeform: I don't think he's saying that, merely that aside from the makefile, perhaps the larger build system should be a separate concern
trinque: if it was that, sounds pretty reasonable to me
trinque: I think he's just trying to limit the scope of what constitutes a foundation release
trinque: but I'll let the man speak for himself
trinque: I can see how the thing tends towards "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" otherwise
trinque: phf: why's that in your opinion?
trinque: I'm about ready to give linux the permaboot
trinque: though I suppose in terms of hardware support (pogo, so on) it does better.
BingoBoingo: linux per se doesn't seem to be the problem so much as linus, as traditionally implemented is
mod6: <+trinque> asciilifeform: I don't think he's saying that, merely that aside from the makefile, perhaps the larger build system should be a separate concern << exactly this. Makefile stays ofc.
shinohai: If anyone gets rotor to successfully build on the pogo, please, by all means contact me.
trinque: shinohai: are you trying to compile for the pogo, or *on* the pogo?
trinque: because the latter results in oomkill iirc
trinque: I tried it for the hell of it a while back
shinohai: trinque: *for* the pogo. *on* the pogo is just dumb.
shinohai: Boost alone takes like 10 hours to build.
trinque: alright so I'm seeing something
trinque: mod6: maybe you guys need a build/test crew.
☟︎ trinque: so you can stop fucking worrying about it
trinque: that I could probably help with.
shinohai: Hell, I even got it to build on Ubuntu, the dumbest of Linux systems I know of.
trinque: my C++ is middling to poor, but I can bash it up all day
shinohai: Except my C++ is poor, no question about it.
trinque: ag3nt_zer0: good afternoon
ag3nt_zer0: hey trinque same to you... how's life?
trinque: s'alright, hacking and drinking beer at a local pub. yourself?
ag3nt_zer0: s'ok man... i started a countdown that clicks away until I plan to embark on a two year backpack around the world
phf: trinque: linux seems to support everything and with some effort you could strip it down somewhat. i think linux also has a policy of never breaking abi, so if you're into static compilation, like ascii said sometime ago "if stator binary breaks on your other linux something's very very wrong"
ag3nt_zer0: which means it hasnt been that great haha but I am looking forward to getting the fuck out of here so there is a light on the horizon
trinque: ag3nt_zer0: sounds like the ussa bureaucracy has been rough, yeah
trinque: I'd like to do the backpack thing at some point too
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89446 @ 0.00052197 = 46.6881 BTC [+] {3}
ag3nt_zer0: trinque: exactly... not to mention the twatbrains that constitute the majority of my contemporaries
ag3nt_zer0: this room seems to be the only place wherein any type of free discussion takes place... not stultified by PC and other too-intense sentimentalisms
ag3nt_zer0: aht part of the states you in trinque?
ag3nt_zer0: oh austin... both places are on my list as possibilities to reside if I make it back from my trip
trinque: austin's a great place imo
trinque: portland's ok if you can ignore or enjoy abusing the communists
trinque: excellent business culture in tx
ag3nt_zer0: I hear that people actually have the strnegth to acknowledge eachothers presence if, you know, colliding on the street
trinque: oh, I've lamented the lack of eye contact on the street in Portland in the hallowed logs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85950 @ 0.0005256 = 45.1753 BTC [+] {3}
ag3nt_zer0: I noticed a huge spike in this shit post 911/patriot act fear + smartphone... seems these events combined to cinch the asshole up to inpenetrable proportion
ag3nt_zer0: maybe it was the drugs, but I remember the 90s being quite different
trinque: when the fuck did america side with the pussies
trinque engages alcohol-induced candor
trinque: maybe I'm naive, but I'm certain this was not always the case
trinque: and I know the answer to my own question but... damn.
trinque: BingoBoingo: an excellent perspective on the news as ever.
☟︎ punkman: BingoBoingo: " to have been photographic "
ag3nt_zer0: yeah we arent naive... and the fact that we preface our observations with these "conditions" indicates how fucking cancerous the psychic milleu is here in mcsoccermomland...
☟︎ trinque: ag3nt_zer0: I have a half-baked theory that america was merely running on the fumes of the hierarchical beliefs of people that immigrated here
trinque: which dissolved, absent the political structures which conditioned them that way elsewhere
trinque: I'll check it out when I leave
williamdunne: Oh, scoop is disconnected from IRC but not the internet. I'll look into it
trinque: every irc bot is such a turd
trinque: guy that wrote tenyks told me I hate trannies, fucking cunt
trinque: I'm gonna eventually write one that works in CL
ag3nt_zer0: trinque: my old neighbor here in scam jose just bought a huge spread in merlin, OR... she showed me some pics it looks so nice...
trinque: punkman: I said to him that the guy who was run out of some ruby project for being catholic was wronged.
trinque: and he went total SJW on me
trinque: unimpressed, and he wrote the bot I based deedbot- on
trinque: ag3nt_zer0: it's a truly beautiful state, but the people here are red-blooded communists
trinque: I'm thinking of heading a bit north to WA
trinque: at least WA has a bit more get-up-and-go
ag3nt_zer0: yeah beenlookinf there too.. and montana, and alaska
trinque: hell we should probably all go swing our highly competent dicks in Buenos Aires at some point.
trinque: sounds like they barely know what they want politically
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26300 @ 0.00051324 = 13.4982 BTC [-]
trinque: so the legal precedent here is that your property can be violated by a low-flying drone and there isn't shit you can do about it?
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 22:35:04; pete_dushenski: yelp market cap now 1.87 bn and is down 70% this year. wd sv !
punkman: mircea_popescu: yellow pages thingie
mircea_popescu: myeah, prime target for revolutionizing, they used to be big data in the 70s
assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 22:57:10; mod6: The Foundation isn't going to ship these builds scripts any more. We're just going to ship source code for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-07-2015#1217142 << doesn't have to be a one size fits all. but if your software can't be built, your software doesn't exist. and it is still upon you to explain how you expect users to use your thing - nobody is going to go do the guesswork of "what the author might have meant", and ESPECIALLY no sane person should ever guess what "obvious" means for anyone else.
☝︎☟︎☟︎ assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 23:05:49; mod6: Trying to create a one-size-fits-all script for everyone to use to build this thing is not going to work. And how does one bundle up something such as 'rotor' and end up not maintaining buildroot and everything else? That's a game that I'm not interested in playing. And it's dangerous for us to go that direction.
mircea_popescu: this "pure code" approach is no different from every other "pure research" proposition - sure, you're purely able to pursue pure goals now, but the cost is any conceivable relevancy.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: in any case in the triangle "monthly releases" "mod6 does all teh work" "bitcoind is usable" i'm not going to pick the first two for fucks sake.
mircea_popescu: "In just five years, Uber has accumulated enough rideshare industry milestones to make your head spin. The total distance traveled by all Uber drivers would take you to Planet Saturn — and back. "
BingoBoingo taking time to nuke ophanages from 0.7.2 ish Bastard block annihilator pretty much works as ascii offered it.
mircea_popescu: blergh, fucktarded sales copy, i guess i'm the dumbass for not noticing it's washitpo again
assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 23:58:57; hanbot: trinque my sha512sum was of old, stale item. refreshed, matches, tyvm.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 00:02:16; phf: trinque: probably same reason openbsd is not the blessed b-a target platform
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 00:37:59; trinque: mod6: maybe you guys need a build/test crew.
mircea_popescu: "early experiments show that statically linked binaries are usually smaller than their dynamically linked glibc counterparts!!!"
mircea_popescu: "Note, this is pretty much contrary to what Ulrich Drepper reckons about static linking." << everywhere a gavin!
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 00:56:55; trinque: BingoBoingo: an excellent perspective on the news as ever.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57600 @ 0.00051311 = 29.5551 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36106 @ 0.00052234 = 18.8596 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 00:57:24; ag3nt_zer0: yeah we arent naive... and the fact that we preface our observations with these "conditions" indicates how fucking cancerous the psychic milleu is here in mcsoccermomland...
mircea_popescu: that'd be the problem. too much convenience, and allowing women the illusion that anyone asked them for any input in the big question of whether their offspring survives or not.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5644 @ 0.00052234 = 2.9481 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:24:23; trinque: so the legal precedent here is that your property can be violated by a low-flying drone and there isn't shit you can do about it?
trinque: no kidding. the resistance to intelligence is palpable.
decimation: usg claims *all* airspace on its lands, starting at 0 feet
decimation: just like usg claims all your ideas: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
decimation: ^ how could the constition give you your ideas if usg didn't own them first?
hanbot: doesn't seem to claim any ownership
trinque: I reject entirely the notion that concepts can be owned.
☟︎ trinque: because they don't own the concept if that's what they claim they're doing
trinque: it implies massive domination of *action*
hanbot: i suppose this works ok up until one morning you wake up to find we've all changed nicks to trinque and there's just no way to make any sort of further sense of b-a
hanbot: at the very least classes must own their names.
trinque: I will revise to: no one can prevent me from making use of a concept; they live in the mind
trinque: I'm responding to decimation re: IP
hanbot: for as long as they stay there i doubt anyone cares.
trinque: to the extent that someone thinks they own a concept, I may lie and let him think so
trinque: yet I will use the concept any way that benefits me
hanbot: well the way it usually works is that if you try to make the movie / tshirt / book of the concept you end up losing whatever profits.
trinque: sure, and those are actions, and someone may or may not use their power to foil you
trinque: but you can't own a fucking concept
trinque: those are arrangements of language
hanbot: you're fighting a strawman, really. might as well claim "nobody could truly own a cow". they just take the milk is all.
hanbot: "beneficial ownership"
BingoBoingo: So transaction orphanage not as clean to cut out of 0.7.2 but done. Bitcoin running. Now to see if it catches up.
trinque: I'm speaking about the cultural vulgarity of "I own that idea"
trinque: controlling an idea requires an immensely more repressed society than I would prefer to live in
trinque: I only live that my thoughts may be less encumbered by morons by the day
hanbot: obviously the whole ip thing needs you not to own your bank account to work. places where that's not available develop a knockoff culture and get pretty loud. see south east asia.
hanbot: the choices you get are the choices you get. the choices you wish to make are something else.
assbot: Logged on 29-07-2015 22:58:15; mod6: How one builds the source is entire up to the user. There may be preferred way so of doing this, such as 'rotor' and so forth. And we'll participate in creating cookbooks and guides on how to do this. But we no longer are going to fight through these environment problems.
decimation: the US used to have a knockoff culture for its first hundred years or so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66700 @ 0.00051302 = 34.2184 BTC [-]
decimation: british machines were brought to the us to undercut english goods
mod6: exactly what I'm referring to.
mircea_popescu: not merely just an auto.sh, but step by step instructions to a level of detail never seen in open source.
mod6: you brought that up the otherday, agree 100%
mircea_popescu: more's the point here, i get the impression you're chaffing under too much workload.
mod6: we need something that people can utilize to make it work. i totally agree with that. and scripts and other widgets to make it work could even be a separate bundle.
mod6: well, i've been pushin pretty hard as far as work load -- what scares me is taking on buildroot and trying to bundle/test the entire thing.
mod6: and besides, we haven't exactly had great luck with our own build scripts to date.
mircea_popescu: useful work is useful work. taking responsibility for the whole world is a different story.
trinque: mod6: I've already been testing some of your stuff; if nobody else wants to manage the build script, I'm fine with it
mircea_popescu: sure, not to date. but we're not going by the criteria of what is easy, so we don't really care. if we won't have success for the next decade we'll be here trying it in 2026.
☟︎ trinque: I've got a 4u collecting dust, etc etc
trinque: ben_vulpes has also put some work into his own script, so maybe he wants to handle it
mod6: trinque: he and i discussed this breifly. and I won't speak for him here. but i wouldn't have said what I said earlier without at least a discussion about that.
mod6: i think he's as tired of our build script problems as I am.
mod6: which is why he said he wrote that in the first place.
mod6: but mircea_popescu makes sense.
trinque: yeah, I mean the thing needs a derpinstaller
trinque: there aren't enough smart people in the world
trinque: even among the smart people... :p
mircea_popescu: mod6 just don't go to this dark place where "omg it's the 29th and i must have a working final version of bitcoind to announce
mircea_popescu: you don't belong there, and moreover that's just not our company style.
mod6: oh no. i wasn't planning on that at all this month anyway.
mod6: not even for a few months -- even before rotor came out.
mod6: the idea was; put out this test bundle and see if we're on the right track and if anyone hits any problems with any of the patches.
mircea_popescu: that said, obviously the effort to make anything work on the stack of shit we inherited from our retarded ancestors is nothing short of immense. but, chipping away at it is going to deliver, and confronting it is definitely going to show us a few useful things.
mircea_popescu: mod6 so far 90%+ of the problems have been with installation, from what i've seen
mod6: yeah totally agree. and i can't help but wonder if it's simply because of things that each persons different host has not installed by default. but it's hard to account for all of that.
mod6: hard, not impossible.
mircea_popescu: yeah. still, it's valuable to try, because if you help people they'll help you.
mircea_popescu: otherwise struggling with installers etc is a horrid trudge, but it is also an investment in human capital.
mod6: so i guess there is still a bit of a fork in the road; even if we do all of the hard work of ensuring peoples host dependantcies are installed before any compiling is even attempted, do we even want that to be a thing, as stan said, this is now obsolete. And do we now maintain a lot of other things for buildroot?
mircea_popescu: we will have to at the very least maintain packages we want to use, in the basic sense of, archival for download.
mircea_popescu: this sounds patently insane, i agree, but i just recently discovered in unrelated proejct that it's unavoidable.
mircea_popescu: sourceforge goes down, there goes youre entire project, seriously ?
mircea_popescu: can't even afford this for eulora, let alone for bitcoin.
mod6: yeah I saw that about the eulora thing.
mircea_popescu: and do not buy into the illusion that it was an isolated incident.
mircea_popescu: it could happenb to sf, it can and definitely will happen to github etc.
mod6: so should we still create scripts for people to build without buildroot (i.e. stator.sh/auto.sh) and then host packages for the ability to construct a buildroot with a drop-in of the foundation source?
punkman: I'm willing to contribute Ansible scripts to deploy/build/debug instances of bitcoind via ssh to different machines. for automating some of the testing workload.
trinque: punkman: yeah, I was thinking my 4u could be a build/test box
trinque: after all, that's apparently what it did for the kernel devs, haha
mircea_popescu: mod6 i'm not entirely sure how the specifics should work out. bit of an open question atm
mircea_popescu: but i'm pretty sure can't simply abandon the entire userland question, it'd be a major strategic mistake.
mod6: i agree. i'm just being careful not to create more work for myself/others than necessary.
mircea_popescu: decimation that's what makes it suspicious. 20mn slashdot, 2bn github. because... reasons.
mod6: ok well.... thanks for setting me straight.
mircea_popescu: anyway, you should prolly take a bit of time away from the hands on work you love and do some management stuff.
mircea_popescu: at the very least draw a schema of what and how needs done so people's offers to help can be plugged in
punkman: trinque, sure set it up with your choice of OS and I'll write one for you
trinque: it already has a basic gentoo install
decimation: nobody has offered to buy the thing for $2b as far as I know
mod6: mircea_popescu: ok sure. can do.
mircea_popescu: decimation you kiddin' me, it could buy out all the russia!
decimation: apparently github has turned into fark
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73335 @ 0.00051302 = 37.6223 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: no but just for my curiosity, what's github to do with a quarter bil ?
decimation: it's kinda the same question as "what's apple gonna do with $60b"
decimation: one guess: hire a full-time staff of indians to vigilantly search committed code for perceived slights
trinque: god knows why, america is drunk on QE
decimation: maybe they can get into the space business too
decimation: lol 'rotor' immediately fails on osx 10.10 with "You need at least one UTF8 locale to build a toolchain supporting locales"
☟︎ decimation: I'm sure the homos at apple support utf8, but apparently it doesn't work with whatever buildroot wants
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17436 @ 0.00053317 = 9.2964 BTC [+]
decimation: lol the problem was that buildroot was grepping 'locale -a' for utf8, while apple uses 'utf-8'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23400 @ 0.000535 = 12.519 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50916 @ 0.00052796 = 26.8816 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: the funny thing will be that this schmuck will still be going around pretending like he actually exists and so forth even after this idiocy goes the way of neobee and "bitcoin security experts group"
mircea_popescu: just like phantomcircuit still goes around, an aethero waiting to happen.
mircea_popescu: decimation check it out, they need a metalocale. hopefully implemented as multibyte too!
decimation: heh yeah. apple makes up standards as they go
mircea_popescu: (ftr, intrigeri is something crazy with the bug reports, may be all-internet record holder)
mircea_popescu: yup, that's the only time so far 3 appears alone as a factor.
decimation: sigh a few more moles whacked and now this (on osx): xattr-at.c:36:20: error: too few arguments to function 'setxattr'
decimation: seems as though linux and osx and bsd use different 'attr' functions
decimation: on the other hand, surely 'tar' builds on osx. perhaps another night
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:39:10; mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-07-2015#1217142 << doesn't have to be a one size fits all. but if your software can't be built, your software doesn't exist. and it is still upon you to explain how you expect users to use your thing - nobody is going to go do the guesswork of "what the author might have meant", and ESPECIALLY no sane person should ever guess what "obvious" means for anyone else
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:39:49; mircea_popescu: this "pure code" approach is no different from every other "pure research" proposition - sure, you're purely able to pursue pure goals now, but the cost is any conceivable relevancy.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:50:12; mircea_popescu: "Note, this is pretty much contrary to what Ulrich Drepper reckons about static linking." << everywhere a gavin!
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 02:34:07; mircea_popescu: sure, not to date. but we're not going by the criteria of what is easy, so we don't really care. if we won't have success for the next decade we'll be here trying it in 2026.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 03:02:01; decimation: lol 'rotor' immediately fails on osx 10.10 with "You need at least one UTF8 locale to build a toolchain supporting locales"
decimation: but I have old crapple laptops that I would like to use
decimation: without losing laptop features like sleep
decimation: macports does a pretty good job of porting standard gnu chain to apple
decimation: but they have thier own binary format, etc
decimation: although I wonder if it will work on any bsd
mod6: ya, mine's sync'ing now.
decimation: somehow this xattr stuff must be magicked away
mod6: it's going slow, but -verifyall and to usbdrive
mod6: i'll have to take another crack at rotor after month end.
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah but mac uses mach-o
decimation: some bsd supports linux binaries I think
mod6: on fbsd there is a linuxcompat kernmod -- but it has issues if you make too many i386 syscalls in your linux code. *shrug*
mod6: rotolinux sounds awesome btw.
☟︎ decimation: redhat 6 is actually a pretty reasonable os, once you kill the poetteringisms
decimation: and there's no bootstrap scripts as far as I know
decimation: redhat still ships with source dvd, if you download and burn the isos
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37800 @ 0.00052581 = 19.8756 BTC [-]
decimation: true. someone build centos though, so it must be possible
decimation: It would be interesting to see what weird stuff like 'green hills os' looks like
BingoBoingo: I'm looking forward to March of 2017 where at this rate Bitcoin successfully becomes a device.
decimation: there's a long way from minix to hardware
decimation: it would be interesting to see what golden toilet prices buys in terms of os
decimation: yeah it's not the hardware, it's the logic
BingoBoingo: <decimation> It would be interesting to see what weird stuff like 'green hills os' looks like << Probably just like 64-bit DOS
decimation: probably with a giant pile of asterisks describing assumptions
decimation: redhat 6, for instance, achieves 'eal level 4'
decimation: but you need to have the most minimal, stripped down version possible to meet
decimation: "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
decimation: That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
decimation: And then is heard no more: it is a tale
decimation: Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105531 @ 0.00053625 = 56.591 BTC [+] {6}
decimation: the summary is that you gotta go through about 50 pages of 'rotor build instructions' to even start to reach the 'eal4' state
decimation: the irony being that it only applies to rhel 6.2, full of well known holes
decimation: the stator I built a month ago is almost to 335k
lobbes: ;;later tell asciilifeform Did some research and looks like I'm going to have to actually edit the plugin for supybot RSS in order to get lobbesbot to store history. I know SQL, but not python. In other words, I gotta teach myself how to make it insert into a table, and check it before spitting out RSS feeds. I'll keep you posted. But for now, I sleep.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63346 @ 0.00053991 = 34.2011 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 266150 @ 0.0005263 = 140.0747 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 164050 @ 0.00051818 = 85.0074 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 328850 @ 0.00054849 = 180.3709 BTC [+] {9}
trinque: asciilifeform: mod6: ben_vulpes: hey, I fixed rotor.sh on my box by adding --host=x86_64-linux to the configure step for bdb
☟︎ trinque: happily munching block atm
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 118473 @ 0.00051449 = 60.9532 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22145 @ 0.00050697 = 11.2269 BTC [-] {2}
trinque: boost also barfs about a number of targets, none of which seem to have mattered.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32100 @ 0.00054962 = 17.6428 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74700 @ 0.00050643 = 37.8303 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54850 @ 0.00051137 = 28.0486 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69300 @ 0.00052409 = 36.3194 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57947 @ 0.00052821 = 30.6082 BTC [+] {3}
shinohai: gm BingoBoingo, you the only bloke awake at this hour?
shinohai: Great, I need something good to read. All I have read is utter shit this week.
BingoBoingo: Dunno if it will be a long one yet. Just been a kinda quiet week Bitcoin news wise
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22862 @ 0.00052531 = 12.0096 BTC [-]
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 288.0, vol: 9735.82879160 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 283.8, vol: 4578.06517 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 287.99, vol: 12727.2270398 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 297.5, vol: 3.37005857 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 285.5657, vol: 13235.33640000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 289.235, vol: 36.13133979 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 289.60386, vol: 46.73892814 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 119693 @ 0.00051164 = 61.2397 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105221 @ 0.00051803 = 54.5076 BTC [+] {3}
shinohai: Nice spin on that BingoBoingo. Team America, world police strikes again.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 269800 @ 0.00052232 = 140.9219 BTC [+] {5}
punkman: "If UDP must be used, encapsulate it in IPsec [RFC4303] to avoid matching IP protocol 17 filters."
☟︎ shinohai: "In the continuing quest to increase block size and reduce bandwidth issues, Gavin plans to integrate blockchain sync by carrier pigeon in the next release of BitcoinXT"
punkman: BingoBoingo: why's that interesting?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 5250 @ 0.00111 = 5.8275 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 129875 @ 0.00053085 = 68.9441 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94813 @ 0.0005335 = 50.5827 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79800 @ 0.00052563 = 41.9453 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16697 @ 0.00052463 = 8.7597 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58869 @ 0.00053464 = 31.4737 BTC [+] {3}
shinohai: If I were a derpy redditor, I would tip mp for that article. One of my favorite yet.
jurov: oh, mp just sooo likes to imagine how actual humans will be separated from dumb beasts
jurov: every time i asked how, eventually it boiled down to depend on retroactivity
☟︎☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62981 @ 0.00053637 = 33.7811 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50200 @ 0.00054961 = 27.5904 BTC [+] {2}
shinohai: It's interesting to think about. I just like the summary of Christianity - which, because I live in that "One Nation under GAWD" I get rather sick of hearing the masses go on about.
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81900 @ 0.00055297 = 45.2882 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51200 @ 0.00055542 = 28.4375 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 06:32:42; trinque: asciilifeform: mod6: ben_vulpes: hey, I fixed rotor.sh on my box by adding --host=x86_64-linux to the configure step for bdb
shinohai: Same here punkman, was like 40 yesterday evening. :/
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 11:00:08; punkman: "If UDP must be used, encapsulate it in IPsec [RFC4303] to avoid matching IP protocol 17 filters."
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2015 01:52:06; asciilifeform: mats: and given that authentication happens on receipt of first packet - with antireplay nonce - unscannable for (you can't tell if a machine is a brick, a live box refusing to relay ping, or a gossip-udp node)
shinohai: asciilifeform: have any good recommended reading for learning how to use buildroot ?
shinohai: Well, I know what I gotta do thisweekend.
shinohai: I had no problem installing, etc. per instructions. Now it is just using it to do actually build something.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 12:13:43; jurov: every time i asked how, eventually it boiled down to depend on retroactivity
mircea_popescu: once aol was allowed online, it necessarily followed no udp. i'm sick of having to deal with it.
mircea_popescu: i wish it were made a law that no isp may provide udp connectivity for a price under the minimum wage.
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: you realise UDP is essential for a number of services and that they wouldn't function using TCP, right?
mircea_popescu: i don't care what you need. fuck you and your needs. the infrastructure can't support udp in the current configuration. you don't get udp for this reason.
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: so fuck most VOIP services, Games, and anything else that requires low latency without packet delivery confirmation? XD
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42370 @ 0.00054411 = 23.0539 BTC [-]
Azelphur: Also, if anything UDP is lighter on the infrastructure than TCP
mircea_popescu: no dude, your solution is right. want "internet" ? sure, 50 dollars a month gets you gawker, washitpo and crapple dot com.
mircea_popescu: they do not belong outside of the walled gardens, keep em there.
Azelphur: Surely in that example most of your business would never have existed?
mircea_popescu: Azelphur the part of my business that consists of redditards opining would never have existed. to my benefit.
Azelphur: (No access to outside websites -> no access to Bitcoin -> Bitcoin never takes off)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the absence of a solution is not an argument in favour of shitpiles.
assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1eCTVVg )
mircea_popescu: if you imagine bitcoin took off because the muppets, you're inhabiting a very special place.
mircea_popescu: you are aware the usg can't maintain infrastructure anyway, and if you persist in staying there you will one day connect to b-a via satellite phones provided by, likely, fucking spain.
mircea_popescu: usg is arguing that "olympics are bad mkay, not because we can't afford anything, but because <<<gentrification>>>".
mircea_popescu: if you think the dispute as to how internet won't be available in the future in the us comes down to what anyone wants, usg or not usg...
mircea_popescu: as the bear was getting ready to stomp the anthill, the anthill in question was very animated by the following political debate : some ants wanted to tear down one wall, while some other ants thought this is stupid.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, because you bought into the ridoinculous "us=world" nonsense.
mircea_popescu: tell you what, it'll fall into the ocean and nobody'll even notice.
mircea_popescu: i guess you get to see the wonder to believe the wonder then.
mircea_popescu: recall the thread with the sluts living there wearing "D&G" purses ?
mircea_popescu: looky here : "there's no blade of grass in the forest that the doe could not shit on, at its pleasure". perhaps. fact : grass will grow through where the antlers were, and not know the difference.
mircea_popescu: all the diddling it's gonna do, it mostly did already.
mircea_popescu: they're just broadly speaking acultural and unseflwarare enough, unlike the romans, so they don't spend three centuries waxing poetic over this understood situation
mircea_popescu: amusingly, this happens with some regularity in history
mircea_popescu: i'm sure all sorts of things are not daily curious to various troglodytes.
mircea_popescu: raped-for-being-white is, i hear, a fact of life for the losers of the 3rd boer war
mircea_popescu: i guess you could get 120 if you absolutely want it, via generators
mircea_popescu: just because some colonies have mental issues it does not follow anything except that some colonists need to extract head from ass.
mircea_popescu: lmao check it out, liberia as well. that poor country.
lobbesbot: lobbes: Error: That's not a valid RSS feed command name.
mircea_popescu: i imagine as long as "9 volt batteries or hunt rats by candlelight" is the choice, there's going to be a lot of "9 volt" systems out there too.
mircea_popescu: why's anyone's poverty, intellectual or otherwise, a criterion ?
mircea_popescu: x86 makes sense. 120 volt is trivially abstracted away by two step transformers.
lobbesbot: lobbes: Error: That's not a valid RSS feed command name.
mircea_popescu: nah. one sticks around because it works. the other because it's the best alternative. you don't like either of them, it's true, but that fact does not alter the reality.
mircea_popescu: dja see the difference between "hmm, i intuit in my urine that x86 sucks" and "lolut, 120v?
mircea_popescu: there's no alternative in a "moore's law" shithole, for very good reasons.
mircea_popescu: now that that curse's dead and buried, we can actually design this shit.
mircea_popescu: there wasn't much in the way of sane transportation routes in the fronteer, either.
trinque: asciilifeform: I did a binary diff between your binary posted to the ML and mine using bsdiff; the result was about 60kb
trinque: might be interesting to inspect it and see what's different
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider how rapidly bitcoin mining ditched the cpu, and then the gpu, to get a feel of just how unstable this domination you perceive is.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: any idea why qntra snarfed my comment ? i tried posting again but i'm being told it's a "duplicate". somehow stuck in moderation ?
mircea_popescu: just as soon as the economics make sense, your x86 nemesis is gone. two years, tops.
lobbes: williamdunne: if your bot can store teh history, feel free to take over. If not, then first one there wins, I guess ;/
decimation: lol being against udp is like being against IP
lobbes: well, I'm using the default 'supybot' RSS plugin
lobbes: which, I guess doesn't store history
lobbes: aye, I'ma have to edit teh python
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if i restart trilema, it doesn't pop them out again
mircea_popescu: does your restart fuck up the rss feed, such as by altering the dates it displays ?
lobbes: I do notice the dates change on phuctor RSS
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so the rss feed is exactly identical pre and post restart. how would the bot know something changed then
lobbes: but bot should still be able to handle
mircea_popescu: ok, so could it be that the lobbesbot sees new dates decides new articles ?
decimation: the only sane way to track diffs would be to keep the entire history then
lobbes: yeah, I think that is the problem, which it should be able to handle
lobbes: it should use the url as a PK
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's "back" when you don't keep time yo.
decimation: which is why you need the entire state
mircea_popescu: lobbes can you discern if he has a point, does the cache get 0'd out if it looks at a zero feed ?
mircea_popescu: and speaking of udp : fucking dns definitely must go away. stupidest kludge o nthe whole internet.
decimation: yes, ascii's wot-signed udp would be the first application for ip-to-namespace
decimation: udp can't be easily distinguished, and this is a gossipd-flavor
decimation: in fact, you need not put the true address of the recipient in the ip header as long as you can arrange to be somewhere to 'hear' it
decimation: pretending that you have a connection on a completely 'broadcast' media is fucktarded
decimation: and it's not exactly like it is hard to game the tcp state machine
decimation: you ban udp, and you are just gonna get syn floods
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35368 @ 0.00054084 = 19.1284 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: dude srsly. the fact that jews favour marriage is no argument pro or against.
mircea_popescu: udp is braindamaged in that it requires a certain sort of world.
mircea_popescu: either provide it the sort of world it requires or visit its grave.
mircea_popescu: what the usg does or doesn't do, wants or doesn't want, etc is irrelevant to everything, usg included.
decimation is confused how any criticism of udp doesn't apply directly to any 'higher' ip protocol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you said yourself it's easier to filter!
mircea_popescu: dude get out srsly. i had dedicated machinery go down because random muppet + udp.
decimation: how many of the muppet's packets were signed?
mircea_popescu: me to isp "turn off fucking udp altogether, it's stupid" isp to me "you'll have toi buy the trunk"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the sort of machine that currently goes down is well i nthe six figure range.
mircea_popescu: getting EVERYONE to entirely drop udp as a matter of policy would be a huge gain for me.
decimation: I process 1 gigE udp at line rate on commodity server
mircea_popescu: decimation any time you wanna try processing 2-5mps let me know.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform stop being theoretical on me. sure same load, not same amplification available.
mircea_popescu: you maybe think about the theory of datagrams once a week.
mircea_popescu: in any case : if it were the rule that udp gets dropped universally, i wouldn't have to have above convo with provider.
mircea_popescu: ima see gossipd alright. atm, the infrastructure is not the problem.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ftr, i am noit proposing orphan-block TCP is any better. shouldreally be TCP/OB
mircea_popescu: i still wish udp died, and with it all the "Services" it provides. starting with dns, ntp and come to think about it
decimation: ntp has a fucktarded exploit - that makes neither 'exchange of time' nor 'udp' retarded
mircea_popescu: i find it kinda curious that asciilifeform and decimation can at the same time hold the discussion of political time we had recently in mind, and ALSO think breaking udp, or doing away with ntp is a bad idea.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: what, jam tomorrow, maybe one day ima get gossipd over udp, perhaps, who knows ? meanwhile half the remaining usg online is BASED, and requires udp to survive at all ?
mircea_popescu: paint my nails and call me mary what the fuck is this.
mircea_popescu: no more udp => no more dns, no more ntp. win of all fucking time, i'd pay to see this happen tomorrow.
jurov: before udp, this originally happened to icmp, which then got filtered routinely... little did that help
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57400 @ 0.00053864 = 30.9179 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: some providers can in fact drop all incoming udp traffic per ip.
decimation: I thought this was pretty standard for 'adult' cloud services
decimation: amazon aws certainly will not pass anything unless firewall is configured, for instance
kakobrekla: i wasnt talking about clold specifically.
decimation: it ought to be simply done in any standard router too
kakobrekla: i was in the place where mp is and they wouldnt do it.
mircea_popescu: decimation yes, unfortunately, yhet another advantage for shithole cloud. "hey, we drop udp at least". exactly the good cop bad cop alf was proposing. but i am not moving to fuckingf cloud, and im not using fucking cloudflare and so fucking om.
decimation: merely an example of an isp that can program routers
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i might. atm not really a big enough deal, whatever, some people can't read trilema for half a day or w/e. but we were discussing the general point.
decimation: so you are against single packet routing in general?
kakobrekla: he is coming back because he is getting that half hour.
kakobrekla: as far as i can tell the attacker of qntra (trilema?) is the same as it was of bitbet last ddos.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42487 @ 0.00054411 = 23.1176 BTC [+]
decimation fails to comprehend the difference between 'udp bad' and 'routing single ip packets good'
mircea_popescu: decimation udp is widely deployed in the hands of idiots.
mircea_popescu: everything that gives idiots voice is the avatar of evil.
kakobrekla: i am at online.net, recommended by davout (paymium). they have serveral levels of infrastructure to mitigate attacks.
mircea_popescu: as decent as it gets = 500x line saturation three hops upstream.
mircea_popescu: yes, they can. they can send you a trillion packets in fifteen minutes.
kakobrekla: iirc server saw about 800 megs of the 5 gigabit incoming garbage
decimation: no, because ntp machines and misconfigured routers allow sending arbitrary packets
mircea_popescu: they just take off the thing upstream. which IS six figures.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're basically falling fore the "shared hosting" bit
mircea_popescu: feel safe all you want, and maybe you never get to matter enough to find out better.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 14:57:20; mircea_popescu: i find it kinda curious that asciilifeform and decimation can at the same time hold the discussion of political time we had recently in mind, and ALSO think breaking udp, or doing away with ntp is a bad idea.
kakobrekla: you are all being theoretical. in practice you stop udp at least one step before the server in any way you particularity like and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, the chump herd is eminently handle-able. the havok they can wreak by employing udp amps, not.
mircea_popescu: except if that trunk serves idiots who need or think might need udp
jurov: how is banning of udp going to magick dns/ntp away?
decimation: it's the fault of the misconfigured routers and the idiot ntp code
mircea_popescu: decimation if you shoot my dog by accident ima bury you
mircea_popescu: it can be the fault of the shitty gun you bought. buy better guns or more funerals.
jurov: then you'll just enable the reflection attacks right to your tcp port 80.. indeed fun to watch
mircea_popescu reserves the sovereign right to blame anyhone on the path to the "accident" he chooses. so no, it's not "the misconfigured routers", i'm not the pitbull you put in the doorway, slam the door and it then "blames the misconfigured door".
decimation: okay, let's imagine a new 'mpdp' that is the same as udp except carries an extra bit to indicate whether the bearer is an idiot
mircea_popescu: atm, im blaming udp. and i would very much like to see it go away, right now.
☟︎☟︎ decimation: is this new udp-like protocol acceptable?
mircea_popescu: yes, im sure the idiots "writing software" and "deploying apps" will soon write more crud and deploy more crap
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there can trivially be gossipd-over-blockchain.
decimation: at any rate, the problem isn't udp or tcp, it's the fact that ip packets route without any signature
mircea_popescu: decimation except he didn't like the fact yu gotta say where you're sending stuff "because usg snoops it"
mircea_popescu: i never comprehended the "anonimity" securityt posture, but whatever.
decimation: in fact, node could not have an actual ip at all
mircea_popescu: i get it, you want a woman that's transparent and doesn't bleed.
mircea_popescu: mkay. i wouldn't be too worried about her fate - it'd cost usg more than it'd cost me to ditch udp.
mircea_popescu: you can send them via dpaste for all the difference it makes.
mircea_popescu wonders if he's the only one that remembers the major spammer-ddos wars of a few years ago.
jurov: were they reolved by banning a protocol?
mircea_popescu: but yes, it was practically shown that a) no actual protection from ddos exists, outside of the ostrich method discussed above and b) udp is the key to this state of affairs.
☟︎ decimation: umm, 'access-list deny udp any any' on your subnet?
assbot: Massive DDoS attack against anti-spam provider impacts millions of internet users | Naked Security ... (
http://bit.ly/1Ib3UtB )
mircea_popescu: i don't solve problems. i just throw away other people's solutions.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: much like i don't make kids, the women make kids. i just kill some of the kids they make.
mircea_popescu: Now, how can I verify my Windows 2008 domain server (with Sophos EndPoint Security) is configured correctly?
mircea_popescu: why are these things on the internet ? i do not wish anything to do with any of them.
jurov: they don't want anything to do either.
jurov: they want just buy and click
mircea_popescu: anyway, the only way to solve this problem is of course ppp, ie pay per packet. and the only way to even run an internet at all is as a blockchain, which is to say mempool and all that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29050 @ 0.00053864 = 15.6475 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 03:59:36; asciilifeform:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217395 << if i have to ship a bootable linux iso, buildrooted for the purpose of building a) self b) bitcoin - i will. in fact, yes, i have this up my sleeve, BUT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO USE IT instead of retarduntu etc
trinque: the rotor problem mod6 and I ran into was simple as can be
trinque: just one of those "right knob" things
trinque: seems like db's config script had environment data leaking into it from the underlying host
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 04:13:58; mod6: rotolinux sounds awesome btw.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 04:16:03; asciilifeform: there ARE NOT 9 GB of useful src
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, in the entire history of human thought there have not been produced 9, or for that matter 1 gb worth recording.
phf: using linux kernel as the base allows for rapid repurposing of cheap chinese computers, without having to write drive controllers or general kernel hackery. in case of suckless it was probably more to do with audiocards and inertia. at the time when the suckless project started, it wasn't yet obvious how compromised kernel will eventually become, the reaction was mostly to userspace retardation
phf: mircea_popescu: 2014-03-27
mircea_popescu: dude check it out, the year gets experimental verification.
gribble: You have not yet rated user phf
mircea_popescu: !rate phf 1 Well read gent in search of a handler. Bureaucrats and mustachioed young ladies apply within.
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.phf.1:039ae78c7128555ebad588f79c7dc7edd0087e763c49d7b6a7dd0165e1fbbc08
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for phf from 2 to 1 with note: Well read gent in search of a handler. Bureaucrats and mustachioed young ladies apply within.
phf: moving on... down? :)
kakobrekla: <gribble> You have not yet rated user phf < notice gribble
kakobrekla: assbot> Successfully updated the rating for phf from 2 to 1 < assbot
mircea_popescu: !rate phf 2 Well read gent in search of a handler. Bureaucrats and mustachioed young ladies apply within.
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.phf.2:6cea324aa2207bd1d76e587be3036b547021756929f56d01002638c3c027b975
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for phf from 1 to 2 with note: Well read gent in search of a handler. Bureaucrats and mustachioed young ladies apply within.
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 11:39:38; BingoBoingo: AH, I started reading it before scoopy found it
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 12:13:43; jurov: every time i asked how, eventually it boiled down to depend on retroactivity
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 12:19:55; shinohai: It's interesting to think about. I just like the summary of Christianity - which, because I live in that "One Nation under GAWD" I get rather sick of hearing the masses go on about.
mod6: ;;later tell hanbot check msg
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00053864 = 6.8407 BTC [-]
jurov: mp: "kids must be culled properly" me: "i'd be culled easily" mp:"then these thought you were retarded should have been culled"
jurov: how this does not depend on hidsight...
☟︎ trinque: if it's free, you're the product!!
trinque: jurov: as for the culling, wouldn't that be up to the parents that clearly decided to let you live? heh
trinque: and if they don't have the luxury of making that decision, *shrug*
trinque: absent a giant safety net, life itself will do the culling
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 16:31:35; jurov: how this does not depend on hidsight...
ascii_field: on third hand coming out of alien chest, i readily recognize that i probably ought to have been killed at age 7 or so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107152 @ 0.00054404 = 58.295 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19750 @ 0.00053864 = 10.6381 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 139700 @ 0.00053019 = 74.0675 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 14:36:04; asciilifeform: they would much rather that everyone announce, for usg's ease of snoopage, when they are beginning to speak, and to whom, for how long, which order the bytes lay down in.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105250 @ 0.00052081 = 54.8153 BTC [-] {4}
jurov: funkenstein_: shannon would apply if the intertubes were analog
trinque: ascii_field | on third hand coming out of alien chest, i readily recognize that i probably ought to have been killed at age 7 or so << plenty of intelligent people had all kinds of health problems; surely there are reasons other than "fit as a viking" to live
trinque: as for myself, I was more dead than alive when I plopped into this world, so this is all bonus time
funkenstein_: jurov, at some layer, they must be analog right?
jurov: ofc but it's not accessible to you
jurov: will it enable yo to make analog channel to arbitrary ip adddress? i'm all ears :D
jurov: you haven't heard? mp will ban it soon
ascii_field: trinque: i wasn't even speaking of health per se
ascii_field: just the fact that it was probably determinable with great certainty at age 7 or so that i wouldn't grow up to be mircea_popescu
ascii_field: funkenstein_ et al: the basic quandry is that communication channels are scarce and very crowded.
trinque: ascii_field: well shit, how many do?
ascii_field: the only solutions fall into the broad categories of 'moar channel' or 'less meat'
funkenstein_: well lately it's been going along the lines of you name them and I order them
ascii_field: r. feynman., 'lectures on physics', vol. 1-3.
ascii_field: or if you're a l333337 d00d, landau & lifschitz vol. 1-5
funkenstein_: though I can't claim to have gone through all of them in great detail
funkenstein_: anyway it appears we all share that kind of background
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26600 @ 0.0005381 = 14.3135 BTC [+]
ascii_field: the subject of why every bag of meat on this sorry rock can't have own radio station, to any useful degree, 'will not fit in the margins of this page' unfortunately.
funkenstein_: plenty of aether to go around, i think we just don't know how to use it yet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61300 @ 0.00051262 = 31.4236 BTC [-] {3}
kakobrekla: i can hardly understand what the guy is trying to sing to me.
trinque: something something killing people in a labyrinth, evil is basically a weird art project, something something
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60482 @ 0.0005381 = 32.5454 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33050 @ 0.00053849 = 17.7971 BTC [+]
shinohai: trinque: I do regularly mumble prayers in public to Satan, when fundamentalists ruin my meal by trying to pray loudly over their food for 30 minutes.
☟︎ trinque: shinohai: raised religious?
trinque: I suspect that's why the satan schtick amuses me so
mircea_popescu: jurov just because you posit there's going to be retrospection needed doesn't mean it's either necessarily so or what i said, you know.
shinohai: Considering they believe the world is going to end and there is no need for any sort of secular education, it is a wonder I can read at all.
mircea_popescu: * danielpbarron too << maybe solution then is ask 7 yo kid if they should be killed and do the opposite.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: <jurov> you haven't heard? mp will ban it soon << all stacks must wear burka!
shinohai: And I love Mors Principum Est, I'm OG and like Slayer tho
mircea_popescu: ascii_field just the fact that it was probably determinable with great certainty at age 7 or so that i wouldn't grow up to be mircea_popescu << you think anyone actually wants more of me around ?
trinque: shinohai: old metal does me just fine too, gotta know the greats
mircea_popescu: <funkenstein_> though I can't claim to have gone through all of them in great detail << o.O so then what have you done ?
shinohai: But, yeah. I dunno how many copies of Led Zeppelin albums my parents burned when I was a kid.
trinque: shinohai: heh! I got busted for tom petty once, of all things. told my mom "you could stand me up at the gates of hell, but I wont back down"
funkenstein_: mircea_popescu, good question. i spent a lot of time with the fluid mechanics volume back in the day.
shinohai: Books too, they had a hard-on for Umberto Eco for some reason, and I could never keep a copy of Foucault's Pendulum
☟︎ trinque: hilarity of it is I think the guy's a born again himself
mircea_popescu: so did you give them madonna's "sex" for their 15th aniversary ?
trinque: haha, I don't torture the poor folks anymore, keep my heathen ways to myself
trinque: they at least knew the whole world was filled with shit, just weren't sure what kind
shinohai: I moved away and never looked back. Haven't spoken to anyone in my family in almost 20 years.
trinque: I have a great relationship with them; they spend all day trying to not suck, and good for them
shinohai: I imagine mine are still sitting around waiting for the world to end, and trying to force-feed as much of that nonsense to others as possible.
shinohai: The scan checks out mircea_popescu
shinohai: The barcode above the woman's vag
mircea_popescu: (btw, the vagina is the internal part. that's a vulva)
shinohai: Well if the vag is internal, and the barcode is on top of that, technically it *is* above.
shinohai: 102 F ... damn it's hot. Time to blend up some margaritas or something.
mircea_popescu: Kim said the contest was intended to "bring about a radical turn in the drills to round off preparations for a war full of the will to settle with arms accounts with the U.S. imperialists, the chieftain of aggression, and the South Korean puppet group keen to escalate the confrontation with the fellow countrymen and that of social systems, seized with sycophancy toward the U.S.,"
mircea_popescu: "Gone forever is the era when the United States blackmailed us with nukes; now the United States is no longer a source of threat and fear for us and we are the very source of fear for it."
ascii_field: 'Напомним, Правда. Ру вчера сообщала о выступлении посла Северной Кореи в РФ Ким Хен Чжуна, который заявил, что его страна не намерена следовать примеру Ирана и идти на переговоры с Западом на предмет сокращения своей ядерной програм
ascii_field: мы. Вместо этого, Пхеньян активно готовится к ядерному противостоянию, так как страна подвергается давлению с целью переворота в стране, так как США участили свои учения с вооруженными силами Южной Кореи.'
mircea_popescu: is it a bad thing that i find him more amusing than the run of the mill usg "comedian" ?
shinohai: Between him and the Iranian female ninjas, I am starting to quake in my shoes.
ascii_field: roughly: 'let us remind, yesterday, pravda.ru yesterday described the speech of the ambassador of north kr, kim hen jeon, who pronounced that his country will not follow the example of iran and go into talks with the west re: nuclear disarmament. instead, pyongyang will actively prepare for a nuclear tension, given the fact that usa is increasing its involvement with training of the south kr army.'
mircea_popescu: offer them what iran got, what cuba got, they'll take it.
ascii_field: anyway this is poppycock, north kr is controlled with rice, not nukes
trinque: strikes me as nothing more than internal politics
trinque: the language is always "prepared" to fight
ascii_field: trinque: virtually everything printed in english re: north kr is a bold-faced lie out of the mouth of south kr
☟︎ trinque: and that's probably the opinion that matters most
ascii_field: how many people know, for instance, that south started the kr war ?
ascii_field: or that north was an industrial giant, heavy on the machinery market, until blockaded by usa and its muppets ?
ascii_field: but yes, they are in 'hitler's bunker' mode
mircea_popescu: ascii_field and italy was an empire and spain was an empire and what else.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: except that italy and spain did not get history-edited
ascii_field: aha, even f-students know that they were once empires.
mircea_popescu: ask any muppet today, he thinks europe is christian and christian values fundamentally european.
mircea_popescu: might as well say "any kid today knows nkr is <<a country>>".
ascii_field: mircea_popescu ought to contact his supplier and have a stern talk re: getting a higher grade of muppet shipped in
shinohai: Same in America, blabbering about how this nation was specifically founded on Christian principles, without ever bothering to read the treaty of Tripoli.
mircea_popescu: shinohai ironically, the us was founded on sectarian neoprotestantism alright.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, so was england, at about the same time. diff flavour.
shinohai: I honestly have no issues with those that do choose to practice religion, just respect the fact that some don't.
trinque: I prefer most do have some form of mind control installed.
trinque: look what happens otherwise?
mircea_popescu: well... honestly, if one takes the stand that mcd is not really food, that same one'd be hard pressed to count neoprotestant lols as religion.
trinque: ;;later tell pete_dushenski let me go ahead and eat my words re: desert gods now
ascii_field: 'i prefer that the planet exert a gravitational pull. look what happens otherwise'
shinohai gift wraps a copy of LeVay's Satanic Bible, sends it to trinque
trinque: heh I've read some of that stuff
trinque: it's like Ayn Rand with candles
ascii_field: and authors find it necessary to lie, e.g.,
ascii_field: 'In monolithic operating systems, a driver can write to any word of memory and thus accidentally trash user programs. In MINIX 3, when a user expects data from, for example, the file system, it builds a descriptor telling who has access and at what addresses. It then passes an index to this descriptor to the file system, which may pass it to a driver. The file system or driver then asks the kernel to write via the
ascii_field: descriptor, making it impossible for them to write to addresses outside the buffer.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33300 @ 0.00054279 = 18.0749 BTC [+]
ascii_field: i can ask, e.g., a nic, to read or write arbitrary word in ram
ascii_field: (if i can access the nic at all from the machine end)
shinohai: "We just launched and are all excited, but one caveat. Transactions don't work."
assbot: REMINDER: the block gas limit is currently 5000, so it is not possible to send transactions. We will release an update in a couple days to cause miners to "vote" the gas limit upwards at which point the full blockchain functionality will be de-facto enabled. : ethereum ... (
http://bit.ly/1DT9ZJ5 )
shinohai: Gas limit indeed. Whole project is hot gas.
assbot: Logged on 22-07-2014 22:53:40; mircea_popescu: ;;sell 5000 "ethereum coins deliverable March 15th, 2014" for 1 BTC.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70769 @ 0.00053752 = 38.0398 BTC [-] {3}
shinohai: How did they manage to get $2 mil in funding ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56550 @ 0.00053753 = 30.3973 BTC [+] {2}
ascii_field: kakobrekla: see mircea_popescu's post re: elaine shi & co.
kakobrekla: yeah i better shutup as im always behind.
shinohai: I think I'll sign up for that. My innovative new currency is "mined" by wiping 1 square of tissue across my ballsack for 30 seconds.
ascii_field: kakobrekla: she and her fuckbuddy oversee a university lab where slave labour (grad students) work (or pretend to) on 'ethereum'
mircea_popescu: lawl. actually hanbot & shinohai the stuff's quite well related. sv knows how to do one thing, the whole "make a market out of a trillion shitheads and sell them sheep olives for quarter pennies". and usg lives in this delusional alt-reality where it is enough for it to say, and things happen.
mircea_popescu: both these got a little crashed, and yes i'm going to bleed the living life out of the entire set of derp shartups, and yes it can say until it falls over.
mircea_popescu: but hey. until that day, every wooden cutout's a soldier.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field you will notice, if inclined to notice, the distress manifest in the reduction of funding.
mircea_popescu: last year it was, "tens of millions". merely not jumping to hundred this year = fail
mircea_popescu: but in fact it withered to a coupla, and doled out through the university program.
ascii_field: that 2m is ~just~ for that particular sc4ml4b
mircea_popescu: 2 uni profs aren't a threat to the fucking mice in their own lab.
mircea_popescu: the 2016 usg line re bitcoin will be that "never happened, not important, uninteresting"
ascii_field: wake me up when they can't afford to mine spamblox any moar.
mircea_popescu: "it has problems, can't deliver on customer expectations, etc". you see the seeds in the amazon recent lol/
ascii_field: yes, there is a ministry of usg that occupies itself with finding nails for the microscope to pound in, badly
ascii_field: on a not entirely unrelated note, incitatus has been steadily ~100 blocks behind
ascii_field: for the last week or so, after (briefly) fully synced
ascii_field: the ministry of dropped packets is doing well.
trinque: which reminds me, my rotor instance chewed up its db when a drive's usb cable disconnected
trinque: and berkdb claims its a db?
trinque: I'm going to restart it from the beginning
ascii_field: trinque: and go, unplug the disk of, e.g., a postgres
trinque: but it's a place for obvious improvement
trinque: ascii_field: would not do this
trinque: write ahead log is for that
trinque: but I bet postgresql would win on balance
trinque: it's not an unsolvable problem to just hack off the frayed bit and begin again from there
ascii_field: trinque: you speak as if this thing didn't eat enough ram and weren't slow enough
ascii_field: now we also need a tcp crud pipe for every access to the blockchain ????!!
trinque: atomicity of writes would be nice.
trinque: how, a fine thing to think about
ascii_field: n+1 bits per block, with the last one signifying 'finalized'
ascii_field: blow the last bit when 0...n represent valid block.
trinque: there, that's an awesome idea.
ascii_field: now go buy a silicon fab so that antifuse rom gets produced again.
trinque turns the death metal on again, fitting as it is
ascii_field: the 'otp' chips sold currently are a FRAUD - eeproms with black epoxy instead of window !!
phf: well block*.dat are essentially append only, the idea can be emulated by having transaction bits. you write a t bit, you write rest of block, when done flip t bit. on restart you walk backwards until the first flipped bit and you file truncate anything from that point on
trinque: what he describes is effectively a wal log, what's wrong with it?
ascii_field: there is an important difference between 'x will not happen because i promise not to stick it in that hole, really' and 'x cannot happen because physics'
ascii_field: and yes, people have occasionally been mistaken about physics
trinque: fair point, yet that means no atomicity til bitcoin has its very own hardware arch
trinque: maybe that's called for here
ascii_field: but in virtually every case known, it was really a case of 'i won't go in that hole, promise'
ascii_field: trinque: i was pointing out that you need a relatively minor (from r&d standpoint) device, that was ~once available~ and isn't today.
ascii_field: the docs mentioned that one could buy 'write-once tapes', for usg regulatory compliance
ascii_field: this piqued my curiosity and i inquired to the vendor, how, precisely, does one make a write-once magnetic tape ?!!
ascii_field: was told that it is ordinary tape. but with a magic hole in the cartridge - like old floppy disk
ascii_field: a fifty-cent magnet will 'rewrite' happily, these magical 'write once' tapes.
ascii_field: as will the tape deck and a piece of 'scotch'
ascii_field: 'protocol' is when you can't rewrite because you can't unburn a hole.
ascii_field: (though still have to be careful because enemy can make holes in any place where you had not)
trinque: amazing how bitcoin drastically increases the requirements on rigor and correctness
ascii_field: trinque: in precisely the same way that abdominal surgery increases required standard of hygiene
kakobrekla: <trinque> maybe that's called for here < actually its called for in many other places, you still dont get it.
trinque: chewing up a database on disk is a fine way to run afoul of the "I do not have the correct blockchain problem" the whole piece of software by its very purpose tries to avoid.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52750 @ 0.00054108 = 28.542 BTC [+]
trinque: and while you're fabbing hardware, might want to keep the integrity of the thing in the meantime
trinque: but then to continue in that vein, I do see how trying endless mitigations is a death by a thousand cuts.
ascii_field: in the sense that 'cold fusion' or elixir of immortality is
trinque: sure, just needs a business case that works like anything
ascii_field: we know how. but market does not want penicillin. it wants the normal cocktail of horseshit and opium
trinque: ascii_field: tactically speaking, supposing there just isn't time for antifuse rom?
trinque: or <insert real solution here>
trinque: or are we already in a position where things like the blocksize limit debate are moot
trinque: I took that to be one of the reasons to take over development of bitcoind
ascii_field: the reason to remove machine gun from the hands of a demented anal child is not necessarily that you need the thing for anything.
ascii_field: trinque: i'll repeat the question - what is the meaning of 'isn't time' here ?
peterl: btw, I alrways read your name like it rhymes with drink, is this right?
trinque: ascii_field: supposing the network goes the way of the gavins
trinque: but in that case I suppose "let em fork" ?
trinque: better to get bitcoind right?
ascii_field: there is the gavins, and there is the actual people.
shinohai is glas he discovered therealbitcoin
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47586 @ 0.00054108 = 25.7478 BTC [+]
trinque: I've taken the size of the network as one of the things ensuring its continued existence.
peterl: so I go to use the computer at $LocalLibrary, sign into their winblows system, pull up gmail, and lo and behold the previous user is *still signed in*.
☟︎☟︎ trinque: ascii_field: the hashing power monopoly scenario; say it forks and there's nearly no hashing power on the side of therealbitcoind
ascii_field: trinque: say, the cellular automata apparatus i described last year
ascii_field: understand, the thing can work while being used only by mircea_popescu and five other similar fellas to 'hawala' at each other.
gribble: BingoBoingo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 9 hours, 14 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <BingoBoingo> AH, I started reading it before scoopy found it
peterl: does it matter how much hashing pwer they have if it is pointed at the other side of a fork?
pete_dushenski: wtf qntra. stop snarfing my shit. why you no like my cecil comment ?
peterl: hmm, yeah, I havn't had time to keep up with that, did you use it? I suppose I could resurect it?
pete_dushenski: eth up a solid 20x over ipo price for those (like saifedean) who threw a couple bucks at it and are ready to cash the fuck out.
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 20:52:13; peterl: so I go to use the computer at $LocalLibrary, sign into their winblows system, pull up gmail, and lo and behold the previous user is *still signed in*.
peterl: no, just some derpy schmoe. I thought about sending funny emails to all his friends, but didn't.
trinque: pete_dushenski: it was in reference to the ISIS convo
shinohai: Be evil peterl and send emails to ISIS recruiters.
kakobrekla: a whole 8 buttcoin volume on that thin, is that all they got?
trinque: above I spoke about being fond of my folks having the drive to "not suck"
peterl: I should have emailed the ISIS and cc'ed NSA?
trinque: regardless of it being derived from said desert god
pete_dushenski: kakobrekla that's buttrex trading engine at 9,000 rpm for ya.
pete_dushenski: trinque they do seem to have their place and their purpose.
peterl: first I would have to make one
phf: ascii_field: is your argument then, on a higher level, if abstraction leaks it should not be introduced?
ascii_field: phf: no. if it leaks, should find the author and boil him in oil.
ascii_field: it is very helpful, and should be introduced, so that we know whom to boil in oil.
ascii_field: it is entirely possible to make abstractions which do not, in any meaningful sense, leak.
ascii_field: e.g., hardly anyone knows - or needs to know - what chemical process precisely it was that produced his cpu.
shinohai: Heh i need to find those dumb dogecoins i have somewhere and cash 'em out for btc, i could use it.
phf: ascii_field: oh i wan't talking in the abstract, i was thinking in terms of prescriptive specifically when it comes to working on bitcoind
ascii_field: phf: for so long as it runs on a consumer pc, it will exhibit the braindamage characteristic to the pc.
ascii_field: such as losing bits when the mains current flickers
ascii_field: 'why is a dentist wealthy enough to go on safari ?!'
shinohai: We should help preserve as many lions as possible, IMO. What else are we gonna feed all the Xstians to?
peterl: why did assbot get the title in french?
phf: ascii_field: there's a lot of leaky abstractions in the current codebase, starting with "string" and "bignum". presumably the solution for those will be to port bitcoind to an architecture with tagged memory?
ascii_field: phf: and if you know of these leaking in some meaningful sense, please say.
phf: ascii_field: so what's the difference between existing leaky abstractions that don't leak in some meaningful sense and the ones that we decide to introduce?
phf: ascii_field: oh i'm still on the subject of wal logs
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo cheers mate. i guess i'm in the spammer books or something
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: You most likely used a spammy word combo. Or you lost your automatic approval browser cookie since your last comment.
ascii_field: phf: when you lose your keys, you may not know exactly where they are, but you can be very certain that they are not on the moon.
ascii_field: this is what it means for an abstraction not to leak.
ben_vulpes is looking forward to digesting three days of megalog
SuchWow: kinda surprising how stable it's been
Adlai: kinda surprising how unstable it's been
SuchWow: any hot new bitcoin assets?
SuchWow: are there IPOs with bitcoin based stocks at all
gribble: Nick 'suchwow', with hostmask 'SuchWow!~SuchWow@unaffiliated/suchwow', is not identified.
SuchWow: I am just SuchWow, never cared for identing with anything other than nickserv
SuchWow: they do know me in #dogecoin tho, it's true. ;)
shinohai: If you aren't in WoT, you don't exist.
phf: ascii_field: i'm having hard time understanding your point then. c++ on a von neumann machine leaks by protocol, so we either write against the guarantees of the underlying machine or not at all?
ascii_field: and if phf read the logz, he knows that i am an opponent of maintaining the 0.5.3 thing into eternity.
phf: huh, i actually forgot that. it was somewhere in the discussion about conformal implementation, "not written in wot"
ascii_field: phf: more of a 'written in proprietary turdlang'
mircea_popescu: ascii_field: we know how. but market does not want penicillin. it wants the normal cocktail of horseshit and opium << this sounds like it';d sell
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 20:52:13; peterl: so I go to use the computer at $LocalLibrary, sign into their winblows system, pull up gmail, and lo and behold the previous user is *still signed in*.
ascii_field: let's together visit the planet with the market-that-behaves-like-market
kakobrekla: peterl because the end point of assbot url parser is in france. assbot is on another server, for obvious reasons.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu you'd be an even older old man by the time you went through a billion eth
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91040 @ 0.00054297 = 49.432 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski lol ? they claimed iirc something more like 0.001 which is whyt i was offering 5k for 1btc last year
mircea_popescu: meanwhile they sold for 1/4 what i was offering ? "presale" , what's that, the web2.0 word for "fraud" ?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu pre-sale was 1337 - 2000 eth/btc, depending on timing
assbot: A Guide To Buying 5000 Ether/Bitcoin, 2.5x More Than Ethereum’s Genesis Sale Offers | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... (
http://bit.ly/1LTGPjz )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34709 @ 0.00053363 = 18.5218 BTC [-] {3}
shinohai: I think I read somewhere that failed "social currency" reddcoin 's lead developer quit, after squandering all their IPCO funds, and now they are going to attempt round two.
☟︎ trinque: has king karp skipped tokyo yet?
trinque: holy shit, at least he said it aloud
☟︎ decimation: <+jurov> funkenstein_: shannon would apply if the intertubes were analog < shannon applies to intertubes, as his theory applies to all tranmission of information - you must expend energy to communicate and there is no infinitely reliable channel
ascii_field: trinque: disappointing further down, where he accuses the sr investigator derps
ascii_field: (karpeles doesn't want to eat the nailgun yet, apparently)
trinque: too bad; he almost did something half-honorable
assbot: Logged on 13-04-2014 22:27:18; asciilifeform: the 'a) wanna buy strela? b) fuck off c) really, dontcha? b) ok sure c) off to jail' thing has been going so long that it doesn't even make national news every time now.
trinque: do they do anything else anymore, other than govt theater
trinque: this of course doesn't absolve gox of being grossly incompetent
jurov: decimation: since you like to split hairs, does, say, does the noise distribution in your internet connection have a value you can use in shannon's theorem?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78156 @ 0.00052515 = 41.0436 BTC [-]
jurov: i'd say it does not, it's either almost noiseless or there's no connection at all
jurov: like arguing about newtonian physics in videogame
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58122 @ 0.00053686 = 31.2034 BTC [+] {4}
decimation: jurov: not so. plenty of packets would be lost if you attempted to spam me with udp, for instance
decimation: but at any rate, you can experiment yourself, dump large quantities of data from one machine to another. you will find a non-zero error rate eventually
decimation: I suppose I don't see a difference between analog and digital communication, even in principle
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 01:58:03; mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1217301 << the legal precedent is that if you're thye sort of guy that solves his own poroblems rather than seek the help of the state, you're a self-radicalizing terrorists and general wesley snipes of nato wants you in treblinka
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 02:15:56; trinque: I reject entirely the notion that concepts can be owned.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 128000 @ 0.00052398 = 67.0694 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: So, killing ophanage helps to seriously cut bitcoin memory usage on 0.7.3 much as it does on 0.5.3... Also CPU usage much flatter when keeping up aside from new block CPU storm
☟︎ ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> y'know, like everybody in, e.g., buenos aires, can << this is wild and unsubstantiated FUD. bad coffee is everywhere in ba, the argentines can't grow their own, and their braindead government won't let them import green beans in enough of a timely fashion to keep them from going stale or molding. i have *had* good cups of coffee there, but even in the nice places the espresso is only casi casi.
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 23:45:27; BingoBoingo: So, killing ophanage helps to seriously cut bitcoin memory usage on 0.7.3 much as it does on 0.5.3... Also CPU usage much flatter when keeping up aside from new block CPU storm
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: So I can learn and derp on systems other people aren't counting on
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 23:49:03; ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> y'know, like everybody in, e.g., buenos aires, can << this is wild and unsubstantiated FUD. bad coffee is everywhere in ba, the argentines can't grow their own, and their braindead government won't let them import green beans in enough of a timely fashion to keep them from going stale or molding. i have *had* good cups of coffee there, but even in the nice places the espresso is only casi
BingoBoingo: It is hard to say what anyone counts on. It is also hard to say how well I actually understand the cpp I attempt a performance of reading. And so Imma keep chopping at this for a while to get more familiar with the code. main.cpp is already ~1000 loc shorter than 0.7.2 release, perhaps more. I figure Derp on 0.7, read 0.5.x and patches and maybe at some point I will understand