log
ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431776 << there will be maxint of these now won't there.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 23:34:21; mpSCAM: idiot went and sent funds from his personal btc wallet made a mistake
ascii_field: from under every rock.
ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431738 << was that the one where operator turned out to be a junkie?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:40:59; mircea_popescu: there's been if memory serves exactly one case of delisted company on these grounds, bvps.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16100 @ 0.00051898 = 8.3556 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00051995 = 5.9274 BTC [+]
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 gentoo trb v99995 was a success
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37400 @ 0.00051993 = 19.4454 BTC [-]
mod6: shinohai: good to hear.
mod6: thanks for testing that out
mod6: <+ascii_field> from under every rock. << yes, im sure.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87000 @ 0.00051904 = 45.1565 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00051847 = 3.3182 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9926 @ 0.00051847 = 5.1463 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20428 @ 0.00051845 = 10.5909 BTC [-] {2}
adlai: asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431750 << yes, although i have even less business telling him how to play than you do☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 22:46:10; ascii_field: anyone else here read the lee sedol games?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70300 @ 0.00051835 = 36.44 BTC [-] {2}
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: why do you hate neural nets? what did they ever do to you?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108000 @ 0.00052182 = 56.3566 BTC [+] {4}
adlai: thestringpuller: i was gonna link you to `!s from:ascii ersatz` but you're right there
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: does the bbet receiver have the authority to determine the cut-off date for acceptable wager resolutions and to refund any bets submitted but deemed "too far away" for the receiver to reasonably hold the funds in escrow ? or is this line in the sand to be drawn by you and kakobrekla ?
danielpbarron: oo maybe i get my trump coin back! :/
thestringpuller: danielpbarron: you familiar with the Windsor area in CT?
danielpbarron: the name sounds familiar, but no
thestringpuller: ah. different part of CT you are from.
thestringpuller was born in hartford.
thestringpuller: New England has the best pizza ever.
danielpbarron: i mostly know middlesex and fairfield counties
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69900 @ 0.00051818 = 36.2208 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 369170 @ 0.00051708 = 190.8904 BTC [-] {13}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130830 @ 0.00051563 = 67.4599 BTC [-] {6}
danielpbarron: !up xm2hi
xm2hi: thank you!
nubbins`: well then!
danielpbarron: sure, what's up?
xm2hi: getting to know the you guys.
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431596 << i can't imagine any good-faith receiver honouring these terms, no.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 20:38:09; ascii_field: is this traditional? (i am not connected with any of this, merely curious how it worx)
danielpbarron: xm2hi, well who are you?
xm2hi: based in malaysia
nubbins`: welcome xm2hi
danielpbarron: that would be where are you
xm2hi: spent the whole weekend reading MPEX
danielpbarron: you mean reading the listing agreements?
nubbins`: i'd say many people are reading the listing agreements
xm2hi: yeah, and about the ecosystem that Mircea has created. impressive records.
xm2hi: and learning about the risk management.
danielpbarron: i was gonna say, it took you all weekend to read them? but that last bit is probably more than a weekend long read
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61450 @ 0.00052124 = 32.0302 BTC [+] {2}
xm2hi: yeah....LOL eyes are a bit blur now.
xm2hi: shall get into WOT soon
xm2hi: bye for now @danielpbarron
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76407 @ 0.00052096 = 39.805 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88800 @ 0.00051625 = 45.843 BTC [-] {2}
adlai wonders who's bot(s) is/are still buying all this S.BBET (at bargain prices!)
adlai: or rather, the better question for discussion - why would anybody want to own shares now?
danielpbarron: >> (a)The representatives of BitBet have elected to divide BitBet into 10`000`000 (ten million) equal non-voting shares with a total equity value of 100 BTC (0.00001 BTC each). In the event of liquidation or breach of this Agreement they solemnly promise and warrant to repay all investors holding shares at this minimum value.
danielpbarron: >> (j) In the event of the sale of BitBet or voluntary liquidation thereof, all proceeds will be distributed fairly to all shareholders by proportion to the shares they hold.
danielpbarron: !up punkman
punkman: would that 100btc have to come out of bet money?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76950 @ 0.00051483 = 39.6162 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: seems like S.MPOE holders didn't like the bbet announcement
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19639 @ 0.00051625 = 10.1386 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50750 @ 0.00051625 = 26.1997 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41200 @ 0.00051625 = 21.2695 BTC [+]
nubbins`: danielpbarron does that say that mp and kakobrekla are on the hook for the 0.00001 BTC per share? it says "the representatives", "they solemnly promise and warrant"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69200 @ 0.00051625 = 35.7245 BTC [+]
nubbins`: ah appears so, altho it is only ~30 btc
nubbins`: about 750 btc in outstanding bets
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56850 @ 0.00051474 = 29.263 BTC [-]
nubbins`: !up The20YearIRCloud
nubbins`: hi
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56282 @ 0.00051471 = 28.9689 BTC [-] {2}
The20YearIRCloud: Still alive
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63122 @ 0.00051418 = 32.4561 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 150500 @ 0.00051379 = 77.3254 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11804 @ 0.00051625 = 6.0938 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100338 @ 0.00051786 = 51.961 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101972 @ 0.00051349 = 52.3616 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33781 @ 0.00051272 = 17.3202 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24050 @ 0.00051475 = 12.3797 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00051594 = 1.5478 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4499 @ 0.00051595 = 2.3213 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68350 @ 0.00051457 = 35.1709 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22150 @ 0.00051272 = 11.3567 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 183878 @ 0.00051227 = 94.1952 BTC [-] {12}
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431681 << a) a rose by any other trust backers would smell as sweet i'm sure b) i missed the part of this saga where this is not the☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:13:18; ascii_field: ben_vulpes: folks have destroyed far more precious machines than bbet by elbowing 'wrong button'
ben_vulpes: 'not ready for primetime' fault of bitcoin
deedbot-: [Qntra] John Kasich Is America - http://qntra.net/2016/03/john-kasich-is-america/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00051532 = 17.8816 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ^ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2016#1431302 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 12-03-2016 18:43:24; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo guy's pretty lulzy. piece pumping him, large lulz potential. jus' sayin'.
BingoBoingo: Please feel free to add further lulz in comments
adlai gives up, after a dozen painful minutes spent trying to squeeze a beatbetification pun out of rosy-smelling corpsorations
BingoBoingo: ;;bcstats
gribble: Current Blocks: 402567 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 632 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.86, vol: 4024.57960254 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 414.193, vol: 2839.34471 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 416.4, vol: 10951.16911885 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 420.27693, vol: 25208.39880000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 413.78, vol: 2995.95622037 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 419.7518, vol: 10.61601934 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 418.082285048
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87154 @ 0.00051076 = 44.5148 BTC [-] {2}
adlai must admit that before reading this latest article, he wasn't sure which party kasich celebrates; and that is still the case
adlai: probably best to leave it thus; 'math is hard'!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46950 @ 0.0005094 = 23.9163 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: adlai: 'Murican politics is like pop kabala, it's nihilism and fraud all the way down
BingoBoingo: For the EE nerds
BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdb4JZ5XIAA-PBD.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1YPN3Ww )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5708 @ 0.00050928 = 2.907 BTC [-]
adlai might actually like it in that case,, being a nihilistic fraud himself!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28176 @ 0.00051026 = 14.3771 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33162 @ 0.00050921 = 16.8864 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77738 @ 0.00050871 = 39.5461 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63400 @ 0.00051034 = 32.3556 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: 1115867657.85
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00050843 = 35.7681 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45700 @ 0.00051038 = 23.3244 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120507 @ 0.00050825 = 61.2477 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109300 @ 0.00050755 = 55.4752 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64593 @ 0.00050548 = 32.6505 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83650 @ 0.00050505 = 42.2474 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00050948 = 14.9278 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72600 @ 0.00050948 = 36.9882 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00050948 = 11.769 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33920 @ 0.0005113 = 17.3433 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47322 @ 0.00050899 = 24.0864 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52100 @ 0.00050796 = 26.4647 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74900 @ 0.00050624 = 37.9174 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 145500 @ 0.00050433 = 73.38 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 2305 @ 0.00277777 = 6.4028 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.
mircea_popescu: <ascii_field> was that the one where operator turned out to be << yes, with the reserve these ex post facto "turned out to be" things deserve.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski> mircea_popescu: does the bbet receiver have the authority to determine the cut-off date for acceptable wager resolutions and to refund any bets submitted but deemed "too far away" for the receiver to reasonably hold the funds in escrow ? or is this line in the sand to be drawn by you and kakobrekla ? << in general this'd be the receiver's authority. a reasonable path is you know, get the domain, put up
mircea_popescu: a "bitbet is in receivership, send no more bets" thing, give it a week or w/e. i doubt the receiver would have to wait out any ongoing bets, can prolly just refund if the reasonable resolution is too far away in the future.
mircea_popescu: but yes, by and large there's a lot of discretionary room for receiver.
mircea_popescu: xm2hi> yeah, and about the ecosystem that Mircea has created. impressive records. << - >> ascii_field> << there will be maxint of these now won't there.
mircea_popescu: of both kinds, i guess. with any luck, balance shifts slowly to the left as time goes on.
mircea_popescu: punkman> would that 100btc have to come out of bet money? << what 100 btc ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100002 @ 0.00050553 = 50.554 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: look at that, archive.is went away ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.0005056 = 47.4758 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: old links still work, main page tho is borkt. mebbe it comes back.
mircea_popescu: punkman ah, no, i can't read it that way.
shinohai: ;;blocks
gribble: {"blockcount":402601}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85300 @ 0.00050888 = 43.4075 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51150 @ 0.0005101 = 26.0916 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83513 @ 0.00050468 = 42.1473 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00050289 = 23.9376 BTC [-] {5}
nubbins`: punkman 70 of those 100 btc belong to mp/kako anyway
nubbins`: the remaining 30 would come outta mp's/kako's pockets
nubbins`: as per listing agreement
nubbins`: (ipo proceeds were paid directly to mp/kako rather than to bbet)
nubbins`: see 3.2 (c), (f)
nubbins`: altho i guess technically they also could have sold 1mn shares each from 3.2 (f)
nubbins`: so the outstanding liabilities to shareholders could be as high as 50%, tho i doubt it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50004 @ 0.00050179 = 25.0915 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120477 @ 0.00049876 = 60.0891 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51328 @ 0.00049322 = 25.316 BTC [-] {2}
polarbeard: sup trb, any development going on since my patches got fired? B)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68650 @ 0.0004427 = 30.3914 BTC [-] {2}
shinohai: "Unrelated but why is this site's logo a bunny on a fucking Confederate flag?"
mircea_popescu: polarbeard not afaik. how you been ?
polarbeard: very busy in meatspace
polarbeard: but I'm still working in my little scheme-abomination, just slowly
mircea_popescu: cool.
deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] Rest Easy - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/rest-easy/
deedbot-: [Trilema] Gangs of New York - http://trilema.com/2016/gangs-of-new-york/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50448 @ 0.00044269 = 22.3328 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8502 @ 0.00044016 = 3.7422 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: " This firm grasp of sex and gender allowed Kasich to authoritatively heap praise on the legions of women who left their kitchens to help his campaign (archived)."
mircea_popescu: ahaha ok pretty good.
thestringpuller: meatspace is always over busy. if only traffic didn't exist.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41184 @ 0.00044016 = 18.1275 BTC [-] {2}
polarbeard: it actually doesn't for despicable cyclists like me
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57067 @ 0.00044414 = 25.3457 BTC [+] {2}
thestringpuller: polarbeard: what is mileage of your commute?
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 1122 @ 0.00277777 = 3.1167 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: ;ticker --market all
thestringpuller: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.19, vol: 3554.76960751 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.0, vol: 5376.37856 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 414.15, vol: 9901.60494268 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.679022, vol: 24536.31580000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 412.074, vol: 3161.77970659 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 418.822623, vol: 23.11506716 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
thestringpuller: ;;more
gribble: 416.448858518
polarbeard: I don't commute, code can be transfered over the wire :)
mircea_popescu: you should hold a class in that wonder.
thestringpuller: only if my coworkers actually worked as they do here when working from home
polarbeard: sheep must be managed in large groups
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100300 @ 0.00044016 = 44.148 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 607 @ 0.00277777 = 1.6861 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431921 << it came out that the bot only is able to think about a dozen moves forward, and if none too much branching.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 10:20:24; mircea_popescu: ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.
asciilifeform: ersatz.
mircea_popescu: i guess either we see a bunch of more games where this theory is tested, or else the great achievement goes into storage to keep the d-wave company.
asciilifeform: other champs already lining up to play
asciilifeform: lessee if they let'em.
asciilifeform: 5th game - tonight.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86600 @ 0.00044016 = 38.1179 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: iirc
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431896 << definitely in the logz☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 06:47:55; BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdb4JZ5XIAA-PBD.jpg
asciilifeform: !up Saweighfteen
Saweighfteen: thankyou
asciilifeform: Saweighfteen: and who might you be ?
Saweighfteen: slightly less than sixteen; popbabyly unwelcome
mircea_popescu: this may be the first case of a person who is an age.
asciilifeform: ^
asciilifeform: Saweighfteen: you stand for all slightly younger than 16 ? e.g., mozart at 15 ?
asciilifeform: how does this work
Saweighfteen: erp..
Saweighfteen: lost for words
asciilifeform: Saweighfteen: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com >> enjoy the logz.
assbot: #bitcoin-assets log ... ( http://bit.ly/1k33Uab )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109223 @ 0.00044088 = 48.1542 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.0004437 = 2.3072 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107100 @ 0.00044146 = 47.2804 BTC [-]
Saweighfteen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f59nxsrtm8U
assbot: Hotel Garuda - Smoke Signals - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1UsMZLP )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85071 @ 0.00044016 = 37.4449 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69484 @ 0.00043844 = 30.4646 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/03/14/one-of-the-worlds-most-notorious-hackers-just-revealed-his-identity-to-me << lulzy imbecilic 'l3337 h4xx000rz' piece. even features the obligatory romania.
assbot: One of the world’s most notorious hackers just revealed his identity to me ... ( http://bit.ly/1pj5Jld )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu will love http://woodcoin.xyz/woodcoin/2016-03-14#i_35977
assbot: IRC log for #woodcoin, 2016-03-14 ... ( http://bit.ly/1pj5RRG )
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: http://www.wired.com/2002/03/aigames/ << although a snorefest to you, this is the article that got me into AI
thestringpuller: I have a soft spot for neural networks cause I spent many of my 8th grade lunches in the library building them.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...
asciilifeform: (even worked lisp into it. but this was a dead end thing and i guarantee that it is not interesting to anybody today)
asciilifeform: while we're on the subject, who recalls that arsebook also has a go thing?
thestringpuller: It would seem Go or any game is playable via neural net if you train the net well enough?
asciilifeform: and, unlike google, theirs has none of the secretive derpitude, it plays on kgs, they post progress reports, etc.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: nn forgets as readily as it learns
asciilifeform: which is why google's thing uses montecarlo method as heavily as nn
asciilifeform: it is 'dragon with two heads'
thestringpuller: that was what I focused on the most in 8th grade - LTM in neural netowkrs
asciilifeform: i will also point out that google INVENTED NOTHING for this item
asciilifeform: it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'
thestringpuller: The algo's imo were ahead of their time. Hopfield nets et. al.
thestringpuller: that's why that article was so interesting to me as a 13 year old since the AI in games was exhibiting emergent behavior not seen previously. (or at least throughout my childhood)
asciilifeform: i would read it, but it barfs, 'ad blocker detected', etc
asciilifeform: fuck wired.
asciilifeform: with hot poker.
thestringpuller: I'll text-ify it later. But I guess point it, don't you think computational power plays a role in what AI does in practice?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: see the mega-thread re: same,
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-03-2016#1427845 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 09-03-2016 16:19:22; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there were once two schools of thought re: how to do 'ai'
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: see, in particular, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=26-01-2016#1386298 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 26-01-2016 17:20:06; ascii_butugychag: (there was a spiffy talk at shmoo, which mentioned how nn used in image recognition usually imprints on what - to a human - would be an entirely accidental cluster of pixels, and if you flip'em, it will recognize an obvious, e.g,. cat, as a refrigerator, etc)
thestringpuller: that seems to be a practical problem of neural nets. had an ex who's best friend's dad at the time worked on AI. He told me this story about how they were training a neural net to identify enemy tanks from allied tanks. well all the allied tanks had good pictures. the enemy tanks were recon photos taken at night. So the nn ended up learning to tell difference between photos taken at night vs day
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431630 << if the summarized version of this is "it sometimes costs money to do things", then i guess all businesses have an uncontrollable, unspecified expense structure☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 20:57:48; mircea_popescu: hence my comment about fragility. there are two main threads here that would-be bitcoin entrepreneurs must heed quite closely. one is that - your expense structure is not either a) in your own control or b) specificable. for as long as your business model involves bitcoin as it currently exists, you're doing the economic equivalent of linking remote dlls.
nubbins`: hot dog vendor: "what if the price of buns goes up?"
thestringpuller: not everyone can have a fully vertically integrated business from the get go
nubbins`: indeed
thestringpuller: last time americans tried that all we got were these lousy anti-trust laws
nubbins`: hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?
thestringpuller: log?
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431645 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:11; ben_vulpes: "I will simply consider the matter moot." << and keep bettor funds if no receiver steps forward?
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431648 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:54; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes eventually.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what would you do in his place? spend the rest of your life waiting for a receiver ?
asciilifeform: give to the first hobo who asks ?
nubbins`: "the rest of your life"
nubbins`: what's the maximum allowed length of a bet on bitbet?
asciilifeform: ask kakobrekla ?
asciilifeform: i have nfi
kakobrekla: 1 year
nubbins`: it's not measured in lifespans
asciilifeform: nubbins`: yes well the question was not about bets. it was about how long you would have mircea_popescu wait for a receiver.
asciilifeform: even if all bets run to term, bbet still has to be operated by somebody
asciilifeform: to pay'em out
nubbins`: asciilifeform i'm not the one who introduced "rest of your life" absurdity here
asciilifeform: nubbins`: so you would operate it yourself, for no reward, for a year ?
asciilifeform: how is that different from ' mircea_popescu ought to have eaten the loss '
kakobrekla: it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed
nubbins`: no, i'd tell bettors to sign a statement with the address they used to fund their bets, in order to receive a refund
nubbins`: if i couldn't bear to wait X amount of time
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i forget, did you ever write at length re: your side of the unpleasantries ?
asciilifeform: because right now the only thing i read was mircea_popescu's 'and kakobrekla refused...' thing
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: was is essentially what nubbins` said earlier ?
kakobrekla: i can publish if someone wants to read. in very short, its: no skin in the game - no game
asciilifeform: i will read it, for my own education
asciilifeform: but i think i can infer what it was, from above
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00043925 = 14.671 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: if kakobrekla gets no dividends for a year+, he must do something else to pay bills..?
kakobrekla: i dont think dividends ever paid the bills.
nubbins`: asciilifeform at the risk of once again putting words in kakobrekla's mouth, i think it's just a case of kako being unwilling to sign off on "expenses" introduced by mp that kako felt were not legit
asciilifeform: then presumably kakobrekla would still have 'skin in the game' ?
nubbins`: at which point mp's ego took the wheel
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85309 @ 0.00043847 = 37.4054 BTC [-] {2}
kakobrekla: speaking of: i had a 0 fee transaction confirmed today. it was made by mistake on or before 26 feb. and was not visible on any block explorer for the period of 18 days.
kakobrekla: miners konspiraci ? no. inconsistent relay policies? yes.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: was it high-S ?
nubbins`: was there a massive mempool backlog?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 276055 @ 0.00043834 = 121.0059 BTC [-] {5}
kakobrekla: it seems low s.
phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."
kakobrekla: nubbins` i dont have any data on mempool backlog during the period
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432087 << danielpbarron the bible says something similar to this, no?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."
nubbins`: not re:marxism-leninism of course
asciilifeform: !up snorera
nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.rate.kakobrekla.5:3dd5c75e6eb580d676a8bec10313e0623b3ffc472704cfc7f67d01d4cb8244a9
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 5 for kakobrekla with note: a principled and honourable businessman.
snorera: pool??
snorera: pool
nubbins`: pool party
snorera: dont leave any beard bits in the water pls
nubbins`: i'm clean-shaven these days
nubbins`: no worries
snorera: so they're pubes?
snorera: or someone dropped a fucking polar bear orf the deep end
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122002 @ 0.00043623 = 53.2209 BTC [-] {4}
nubbins`: hard to say what happened
nubbins`: http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks like the market's reacting pretty strongly to mp's rashness
assbot: S.MPOE last 86@0.00043554 ... ( http://bit.ly/1USv0yT )
nubbins`: massive sells today
nubbins`: smth like 2000 btc worth?
snorera: you??
nubbins`: ;;calc 2000*[ticker --last]
gribble: 829100
nubbins`: bbl
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i thought you did not believe that mpoe was a market ?
nubbins`: in the sense that a lemonade stand is not a food service business, regardless of the nickels rolling around the lemons
asciilifeform: nubbins`: and who then was 'actual business' ? mtgox ?
asciilifeform: usgbase ?
asciilifeform: havel0l ?
nubbins`: no, although mp's demonstrated a karpeles-esque mastery of the protocol lately
asciilifeform: no, srsly, mp's elbow button aside, who is the example nubbins` would have us learn from ?
nubbins`: sadly, none exists
thestringpuller: i would say brian armstrong
thestringpuller: he is the best thing bitcoin has to offer
asciilifeform: waiwut
thestringpuller: maybe Olivier Janssens?
nubbins`: asciilifeform hanbot had some pretty sage advice a few years back that was severely overlooked by all parties
thestringpuller: how to start a bitcoin business
snorera: hanbot's hot
asciilifeform: nubbins`: hanbot's advice was derived from working with mptronics
snorera: doubtful she can sage too hard
nubbins`: asciilifeform agreed
nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.msg3642934#msg3642934
assbot: BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1p6Dw0X )
nubbins`: "Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching."
nubbins`: sadly, even though mp worked with mptronics, he failed to heed this advice
thestringpuller: was there ever a reason for using no tx fee?
nubbins`: thestringpuller idiocy / cheapness
snorera: yeah, to save b
nubbins`: a desire to see the world bend instead of him, etc
thestringpuller: this is what was stated why the payouts were using 0-fee tx?
nubbins`: "i shouldn't have to pay fee because i'm me"
nubbins`: take your pick
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what would have been your conclusion if he had transmitted with a fee but same thing happened ?
thestringpuller: I'm still confused I guess as to why no fee was used for the payouts..........
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: that happened, and we found it was tx malleability, not a cartel...
snorera: ^what alf said, fee or no, it's protocol
nubbins`: asciilifeform what would have been your conclusion if wednesday was the colour magenta? what, are we discussing hypotheticals now?
asciilifeform: yes.
nubbins`: no.
snorera: yhes
nubbins`: asciilifeform what would have been your conclusion if he had paid out bettors 1000 times from 1000 different inputs?
nubbins`: i'm not interested in discussing what my conclusion would have been if something that didn't happen happened.
nubbins`: "what if you had to pick between being electrocuted by your penis and having mr. peanut officiate your wedding?"
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i have nfi why he transmitted without fee. just as i have nfi why the operators at chernobyl reactor 4 wanted to 'test'
asciilifeform: http://chernobylgallery.com/chernobyl-disaster/cause << see also
assbot: What Caused The Disaster | The Chernobyl Gallery ... ( http://bit.ly/1V6J1sZ )
nubbins`: asciilifeform see the ocean ranger disaster for another NFI situation
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: pretty difficult to test a defective reactor
nubbins`: asciilifeform but the set of possible reasons is finite and bounded
thestringpuller: iirc that wouldn't have happened with a legit reactor
nubbins`: anyway! bbl
nubbins`: i'll leave you with one more nugget of applicable advice from hanbot
nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.msg3644723#msg3644723
assbot: BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1V6JdIE )
nubbins`: You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands [when you chose to send a 0-fee tx and you got bitten as a result]. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: we had this thread ?
asciilifeform: the incident hanbot described concerned freshly-moved coinz.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.
asciilifeform: as far as i can see.
thestringpuller: well should have waited 18 days for confirmation instead of 1 day?
kakobrekla: yes, they were movable and they moved. how do you say - mega unsurprise.
asciilifeform: so this'd be rather like faulting a fella shot as a bystander in a bank robbery, for not wearing a flak jacket that day ?
snorera: flak jacket illegal here
thestringpuller: bystander shouldn't be standing up during a bank robbery!!!1
asciilifeform: snorera: ty for inhabiting the shitland that exists to make usaschwitz look good!
asciilifeform: somebody gotta do it.
snorera: cops might wanna shoot us
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30400 @ 0.00043554 = 13.2404 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: !up snorera
snorera: ;seen cazalla
snorera: ;;seen cazalla
gribble: cazalla was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <cazalla> (which in a round about way, probably is ha)
snorera: single handedly increasing th popul;ation
snorera: he's got 4 chinese girls in the shed
snorera: thats what 10 bc does
snorera: nah cazallas a good bloke
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125453 @ 0.00043437 = 54.493 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70788 @ 0.00043236 = 30.6059 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431714 << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432045 << upon consideration the (absurd! ridiculous! i don't understand how the world works!) schelling point is for kakobrekla and mircea_popescu to split the haul☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:22:28; ben_vulpes: ascii_field: game theoretically permawedges obviously.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:35:55; nubbins`: hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?
snorera: voopzz
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what haul
ben_vulpes: hey vex back for the drama?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: looks like !
ben_vulpes: don't be thick, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: no srsly what haul
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lemme guess, you expect to see that he will turn down dooglus because he isn't active in modern wot, jurov because he agreed with nubs, you because usaschwitz inmate, and this leaves nobody so the bets get eaten ?
asciilifeform: or that no one even bids ? or what.
ben_vulpes: how could i be so thick and naive! asciilifeform points out that the coffers might not even contain anything.
asciilifeform: what coffers
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes already thinks that mircea_popescu spent the betted coin on drink? or what.
asciilifeform: i expect it is still there.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432167 <<< protocol says no such thing☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 15:27:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.
asciilifeform: davout: correct, the 'promise' says it.
davout: protocol says miners can include it or not, at their own option
asciilifeform: the protocol says pretty much nothing save what constitutes a valid tx and block.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: which is why i said 'rot'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: presumably receiver gets to operate bbet if he can make it solvent ?
asciilifeform: or do i catastrophically misunderstand.
snorera: likely alf
ben_vulpes: bitbet is dead.
davout: sfyl
asciilifeform: snorera: i'm pretty sure i don't meet at least 4 or 5 of the qualifications.
asciilifeform: snorera: calls, at the very minimum, for an expert sapper, who is not a reich subject
snorera: i meant its likely the reciever woould try to maintain, but i can see yuo as it
asciilifeform: l0l
snorera: i can see me moreso
asciilifeform: aha.
snorera: im quite qualified
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55950 @ 0.00043162 = 24.1491 BTC [-] {4}
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: why do you say dead ?
davout: s.mpoe taking a serious beating today :/
asciilifeform: folks were bettin' long into the in-my-cuntry-theres-a-problem saga
ben_vulpes: davout: tis the Great Divestment.
davout: ;;gettrust snorera
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user davout to user snorera: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=davout&dest=snorera | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=snorera | Rated since: never
asciilifeform: davout: vex
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: let's just think about 'mods' for a moment.
snorera: fuck off sassoon
davout: oh lol
davout: asciilifeform: ty
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: waiwut
snorera: i guess you've an interest davout?
snorera: i just voted for alf
asciilifeform: snorera: i dun think there is vote.
davout: i have an interests in more things that can fit in 24 hours
snorera: if there isnt i certauinly dont get one
snorera: i am qualified tho
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it was a mighty fine mazerati, if beaten up, but now wrecked ?
asciilifeform: !up solrodar
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: hand fabricated lakebed racer
ben_vulpes: with a deadman's switch
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, et al: is bbet for sale for the cost of the shortfall? or do i entirely fail to grasp the algo here
shinohai: !up snorera
ben_vulpes: ofc not for sale, asciilifeform.
ben_vulpes: i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: why ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you think mircea_popescu was murdered by cia and hitler wants the 750 betted coins to buy a new airfart-one ?
snorera: recive dont mean sale
snorera: est no necessito
phf: ben_vulpes: hehe, the 5 stages of grief :)
snorera: reciever just has to work out whjat the fuck is happening
snorera: alf qualified
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership. >> and i will be astonished if one day you get off ass, actually do something. but then again, that's our respective problem.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, dear god what log.
solrodar: receiver takes over the business and then either sells it or liquidates it with the intention of maximizing the return to the previous shareholders
solrodar: once receiver is appointed, previous shareholders and management have no say in how the business is run
solrodar: but receiver is obligated to act in shareholders interests
mircea_popescu: solrodar stakeholder's interest.
snorera: feel freee to recieve as you like
snorera: id be reporting to mp and kako
solrodar: mircea_popescu: if you mean creditors, they have to respect their claims but they're ultimately working for the shareholders, right
mircea_popescu: well yeah, creditors generally. it can't just go, "hey, shareholder's interest is they get all moneyz so there. problem solved."
solrodar: snorera: there is no reporting, it's a fiduciary arrangement, they can't actually control what the receiver does
solrodar: that's what would distinguish a receiver from an arbitrator
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432016 << check that out, 3 of us!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:04:26; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...
mircea_popescu: mine didn't do anything really.
snorera: i aint no arbitrator
snorera: twat
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432026 << phuctor, sort-of.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:07:07; asciilifeform: it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'
snorera: do you have an interet?
snorera: interest
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:39:06; kakobrekla: it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed
mircea_popescu: you don't, however, have a manner to walk out of this WITH bitbet, no matter what discussions may pass. it does not belong to you, irrespective what you may think.
solrodar: snorera: me?
snorera: yeah you
solrodar: I am considering it, but doubt I have the necessary reputation here
mircea_popescu: who are you anyway ? either of you two ?
solrodar: I did the trb call graphing work last year
snorera: im not a wank hole
jurov: !b 2
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/13JCPR0.txt )
mircea_popescu: solrodar ah i recall.
solrodar: so I have proven a certain amount of technical skill, but this role would also need proven good judgement
mircea_popescu: and a disinclination to split with a few hundred btc.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432087 << i lollered.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."
mircea_popescu: if you ever throw a party somewhere that isn't in a swamp i wanna come.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432210 << so basically we have a community full of people who confuse "voice of sanity" and "people on tilt" liberally, and by and large is willing to "discuss" everything from this arm's length position of "whatever, as long as we're spending other people's money here's what we think", but by and large can't do anything AT ALL ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 15:56:32; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.
mircea_popescu: and this is mp's fault, because unlike everyone else he at least you know, try to run the daycare for half a decade ?
mircea_popescu: this new learning amuses me, go protect the earth from earthquakes with banana peels or whatever it is you do for great glory.
phf: nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and
phf: invalidates not just mp, but others who participated in construction of tmsr.
phf: nubbins`: i think it's a pointless to discuss (and takes away from the core of the issue) whether or not miners are conspiring against bitbet. ascii's been known to say that lizard hitler personally disconnected his node, nobody cared to pipe in then, because it's an established local way of talking and thinking (не веришь прими за сказку). miners are a cartel, they can collectively decide what the protocol behavior should be
phf: into a controversial protocol behavior, mp called it "miners are conspiring against bitbet". you can personally call mp stupid for that, but there's no "crime" there.
phf: nubbins`: the core of the issue (the way i understand it) is whether or not mp can use personal funds to pay out bets, and whether he can later ask for those funds back from shareholders. that seems to contradict the contract, so the accusation goes, he's in breach of contract. seems simple enough.
phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision of what has transpired,
phf: rather then ~everybody~ seemingly losing their shit.
phf:
phf: (apologies for wall of text)
snorera: didnt read, no worries
solrodar: lol
mircea_popescu: i was here before you, phf , doing exactly the same thing. so count the whole list thx.
phf: count the whole list?
mircea_popescu: (mp, myself, maybe ascii)
mircea_popescu: definitely mod6
mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.
mircea_popescu: this usually attracts talkers, if they be any good, at least. exactly the same way it worked for satoshi, and exactly the same way it always seems to work out, a little later you look around and there's all this democracy and "consumers have come to expect" and general bullshit imported, which you don't even rightly feel able to explain whence it came.
mircea_popescu: but whatever! no swamp was drained in one day.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48226 @ 0.00043232 = 20.8491 BTC [+] {2}
PeterL: mircea_popescu what about the part of the listing that says shares will be paid out a minimum of 0.00001 ? If selling the domain+code does not cover the 17btc shortfall and this minimum, are you and kakobrekla expected to pay this out of pocket?
mircea_popescu: i would think so, yes.
jurov: phf there is no judge mircea_popescu wuld accept such "verdicts" from. remember when rota decided in similar way?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 << yes !☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
PeterL: didn't MP follow decision of Rota?
shinohai beware the ides of March
PeterL: before closing down rota?
solrodar: yes, and then declared he would never subject himself to something like that again
mircea_popescu: mp did follow it, but jurov is none to bothered with things like logic, or not outright lying, when there's something the monkey on his back WANTS!!1
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432312 << wai wut, i am by no stretch of the imagination qualified to clear the bbet minefield☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:35:22; mircea_popescu: (mp, myself, maybe ascii)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is, like anything else, a voluntary position.
jurov: so am i lying when i say, that you resolved not to subject to any judgement?
mircea_popescu: jurov i said, at the time, that i can't in good conscience allow people to vote largesse out of mpex. plox, read the thing you're talking about.
phf: jurov: and when judge passes a verdict and mp does not comply or whatever the outcome is we can say "tmsr as an instituation has failed and we can walk away" i mean, what's the problem there?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i mean, from purely technical point of view, i think i have sufficient brain, but if it became known that i have the ignition keys to xxx btc in my house, i will last maybe a day before gestapo.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not think you have sufficient brain. business is business, there's nothing "technical point of view" about it.
asciilifeform: fair.
asciilifeform: let the pro sappers do it.
mircea_popescu: yes, in a different life had you grown to be a jew and went into commercial law rather than kaballah, you would have done fine.
mircea_popescu: in this life tho, you went another way.
asciilifeform: i don't know which direction detonator in claymore unscrews, either.
mircea_popescu: phf exactly how is this "not comply" going to work ? cuz i dun follow really.
asciilifeform: or how to remove antitamper on a 'butterfly'
asciilifeform: etc.
mircea_popescu: judge is going to rule "hey, mp must continue to spend liberally to try and build a thing out of nothing - BUT THIS TIME WE DECIDE HOW MUCH AND ON WHAT!!1" thus turning tmsr into the 51 state ?
mircea_popescu: i'll piss on his grave, judge or no judge.
asciilifeform is actually happy that he isn't being conscripted for this particular chore
solrodar: I think the real problem here is not the solvency or otherwise of bitbet, but the fact that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have had a breakdown in trust and no longer want to work with each other
solrodar: that could be resolved by other means than liquidation
solrodar: such as by one or both of them selling their controlling interest
PeterL: has anybody expressed interest in buying bitbet yet?
mircea_popescu: PeterL seems that time came and went.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424845 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:13:22; mircea_popescu: by all means. hence, " and if there's a single icann in the lot with enough actual gumption to put together a hostile takeover package, i'll certainly consider it."
asciilifeform: PeterL: it'd have to be sold to someone who can be relied on not to run off with the contents ?
mircea_popescu: hey check it out, nobody spells icahn's name right.
mircea_popescu: there's two peter lamberts ?!
phf: mircea_popescu: hey some people clearly want to see blood. i think judgement should exclusively affect only people's wot ratings and is necessary for when the issue is complicated and needs an investigation. sort of like a write up that supreme court judges do. nobody even needs to agree with it
solrodar: mircea_popescu: as I understand the listing agreement, both you and kakobrekla need to agree before either of you can sell your joint 50%
solrodar: how can it be hostile?
mircea_popescu: in that it outsts some/all management.
solrodar: with their consent
mircea_popescu: that's the usual sense of hostile in that context.
mircea_popescu: well yes with their consent, it's not rapine.
mircea_popescu: !up peter_lambert
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432314 << what does it mean in this context, to be 'driven by poverty' ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:36:05; mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you familiar with the saying "can take girl out of the trailer park, but not the trailer park out of the girl" ? that, except for boys.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must confess, i was never on tardtalk, etc. and have very limited experience with this item. but i think i know what it is, from logz
mircea_popescu: it's the historical and to my eyes first sense of mean / meanness.
asciilifeform: it is the pestilence that drove my deep disinterest in bitcoin ~users~ 2009-2012.
asciilifeform: illiterate peasants hitting one another with broken-down spades over a stolen fuck-goat
PeterL: asciilifeform the receivership of bitbet could include refunding all bet deposits, then the site could be sold without transfering the bet funds, let them restart from scratch?
asciilifeform: PeterL: but receiver would have to actually hold the keys, however briefly
asciilifeform: as i understand
PeterL: yes, but receiver and buyer would not have to be the same person
PeterL: so these are separate issues
asciilifeform: anyway, i am not involved with any of this, and for very good reasons (see mircea_popescu's explanation.)
asciilifeform: as far as i can see, the only chance of it resolving cleanly involves mircea_popescu doing a multitude of 'things for phree' which is one of the reasons he is in none too happy a mood.
asciilifeform: but holding a gigantic bag of other folks' coin is not really an outsourceable job.
mircea_popescu: well, we're many layers above that, however. in this rarefied atmosphere which, however frustrating, is still many miles above the peasants with their fuckgoat, we meet the twin dragon of, on one hand,
mircea_popescu: "They consider themselves leaderless. They can have representatives, they can have "evangelists" but they have to believe that their conclusions are all their own, through individual reflection and objective consideration. Interestingly, and on purpose, they believe their brains can handle such an analysis, any analysis. This isn't arrogance. They are told, by universities and the media, that their mind is prepared
mircea_popescu: to do this heavy lifting as long as they are given just the right facts, filtered from the noise."
mircea_popescu: and on the other hand, the lulzy "a man that doesn't believe in allah can't possibly not go on a murdering rampage" deeply held if ridiculous, and certainly unexamined belief of egyptian peasants, except translated in time and space to you know, "one in a position of authority is necessarily both bad and responsible!"
mircea_popescu: these are deeper issues that what can be addressed in plain conversation, i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm not doing more shit for free in this context ; not only because it is outrageous for the recipients of charity to direct the disbursement of charity, but most of all because the end result of a world kept clean, warm and humming along on charity is a disproportionate feeling of power in the idle denizens, who then end up running into "steel walls".
mircea_popescu: not terribly fair to raise the children thus.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was an observation, rather than prescription, i am noting that you are doing a megatonne of unplesant wurk for phree.
mircea_popescu: point.
asciilifeform: sorta like stalin did.
asciilifeform: what was his reward for leading the 'blind kittens' ?
mircea_popescu: and to disabuse THAT notion, i don't personally think stalin was either very apt, very smart, or any sort of example to be followed. is, indeed, a notable example for all sorts of things,
mircea_popescu: but most to do with how idiotic everyone else was, not not even measure up to the georgian.
asciilifeform: but this is not why he was working for free.
asciilifeform: he, afaik, simply did not have the tastes with which he could enjoy a reward for his work.
asciilifeform: his aptness - or ineptness - are not the moving part here
mircea_popescu: true, on both ends.
asciilifeform: possibly it was his only strength...
asciilifeform: he was not, in the sense discussed earlier, 'moved by poverty'
asciilifeform: left behind no swiss accounts.
mircea_popescu: a strength both understood and tried to be replicated by a bunchy of lesser copies throughout the "unalligned" movement and well beyond.
asciilifeform: (notably, refused, for his entire reign, to sell mineral resources from his country to foreign devils. successors IMMEDIATELY began this burning of furniture, culminating in modern ru 'pipe economy.')
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, it was, in the copies, a mega-l0l quite comparable to the false asceticism of medieval monks
asciilifeform: 'vow of poverty' surrounded by gold and jewels, 'chastity' with cocksuckers in every corner, etc.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36300 @ 0.00043232 = 15.6932 BTC [+]
jurov: stalin surely too tought "bah stupid poor tarstalk redditors!" when someone was criticizing his zerofee experiments with hitler
mircea_popescu: afaik this is on the record, even.
asciilifeform: very much
shinohai: by the pool >>> https://i.imgur.com/JVEw9uS.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/250h2iU )
asciilifeform: i recently finished an interesting history, 'Расстрелянные герои Советского Союза' (Heroes of SU who were condemned to the firing squad)
asciilifeform: it was largely about this
asciilifeform: (distinguished su military men, who were executed for failure to mop up stalin's mistake)
asciilifeform: though it was never clear to me that the delay-game played with germany was a mistake.
mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?
mircea_popescu: ow fuck, that's ANOTHER thing i won't have to do, resolve that god damned bet, huh.
mircea_popescu: hallelujah.
thestringpuller: ;;isup qntra.net
gribble: qntra.net is up
thestringpuller: huh...
mircea_popescu: i even promise to not pelt with invective the poor receiver whichever way he chooses to go.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432414 << what does study of history 'do' ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:16:26; mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?
mircea_popescu: he'll get enough from "the community", i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very different concerns here ; history may be informative but it's never dispositive.
mircea_popescu: not in a manner "technical knowledge" or say a blueprint is.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did you read the 4th game ?
mircea_popescu: nah i looked (briefly) through the first three
mircea_popescu: about all i had time/patience for.
asciilifeform: the 4th is the interesting one.
mircea_popescu: maybe one day.
mircea_popescu: going through a game of go is rare among endeavours in that i can't be doing other things.
asciilifeform: yeah.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller i see it.
asciilifeform: loads ok here
thestringpuller: "The server at qntra.net can't be found, because the DNS lookup failed."
thestringpuller: I'll try it from another location later. Guess no qntra at work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but thus far i don't see how the bet is difficult to resolve. the presumption is that the game was legit, no? barring actual proof of shenanigans ?
asciilifeform: is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: it's just this unpleasant "bitbet bets once resolve enact history". i dislike the notion of cementing google's transpared ploy into my blockchain. i'm sure it's all me.
mircea_popescu: and in other fema camp news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1cg3b5ECz1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/250iwd0 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only you.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu is the one stuck driving the grim bulldozer.
mircea_popescu: *resolved / transparent etc.
nubbins`: <+phf>nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things <<< nothing about what i did prevents this from continuing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43139 @ 0.00043182 = 18.6283 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: what, you can't fuck around with novel ways of doing things because s.bbet imploded?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99250 @ 0.00043155 = 42.8313 BTC [-] {4}
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: was it really meant to live only until the first disaster, however small? e.g., stolen server ?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: or was the idea that it ~ought to be~ successful enough to be able to cover any loss with simply the profit from any particular month ?
phf: nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"
asciilifeform: ^
asciilifeform: i must agree with phf. and i think this is how nubbins` ended up killfiled by mircea_popescu, for the 'i speak for trees, for the trees have no tongues' thing.
asciilifeform: the 'trees' very much DO have motherfuckingt tongues here.
asciilifeform: and don't need a 'speaker for.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49637 @ 0.00043172 = 21.4293 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00043122 = 24.6658 BTC [-] {2}
shinohai: http://archive.is/Dl6ob <<< look at what the vc capital buys, fake nodez!
assbot: Network Snapshot - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/250lbmW )
mats: hello lords and peers
asciilifeform: /Classic:0.12.0/2310 (29.15%)
asciilifeform: l0l!
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu wondered where the sybils.
asciilifeform: turns out, right there.
shinohai: keklicious
asciilifeform: shinohai: betcha there's a botnet install in there.
asciilifeform: there were thousands of sybils, note, for quite some time.
asciilifeform: but what there also was, was mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz
asciilifeform: and possibly he is now cured of it.
asciilifeform: sybil attacks work not because there are many sybils, but because they ~act in concert~
asciilifeform: the number is simply to ensure that folks connecting at random, in public toilets, end up with a thick layer of sybil between them and the statistically probable genuine non-gangrenous flesh somewhere far away.
shinohai: xD
solrodar: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432450 << what happened to the "reserve" of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-04-2014#608433 ?☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:37:40; asciilifeform: nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.
assbot: Logged on 07-04-2014 19:36:22; kakobrekla: cool, so its a double reverse fractional reserve
phf: solrodar: nothing need have happened to warrant that question. reserve is there to pay out what was payed in. can't pay for server from reserve. ascii's question is not pointed, he's never seen bitbet's paperwork and is surprised that a business can run without own assets.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93550 @ 0.00043262 = 40.4716 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> nubbins`: or was the idea << or possibly the system that worked well for s.dice was simply carried forward, with not enough thought given to the matter. "hey, it's also gambling".
solrodar: well obviously the whole 0-asset thing was always an accounting fiction
mircea_popescu: dunno, and the people involved had not the foresight to leave us detailed records of how that logic went.
solrodar: it's very easy to enumerate bitbet's assets and liabilities, as mp has done
solrodar: but were there ever any reserves, or was that audit a misunderstanding?
phf: seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.
mircea_popescu: the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.
solrodar: makes sense
mircea_popescu: phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.
mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
mircea_popescu: so he rather cavallierly offered to continue eating the server while i continue eating the admin.
phf: ah, i see
mircea_popescu: but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance
solrodar: your expenses meaning your time?
mircea_popescu: 50 bux or something, i don't recall exactly.
mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
phf: so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket
mircea_popescu: there's of course also the cost of handling bitcoin payments, which is very VERY far from "free", irrespective what the "big blocks" derps think.
mircea_popescu: but currently, the actual bitcoin network fee doesn't even ammount to 1% of the actual cost of interacting with this sprawling pile of shit.
mircea_popescu: now, one could say "the same is true of fiat banking", and BY AND LARGE THEY WOULD BE RIGHT. see for instance
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/time-for-europe-to-repeal-the-us-backed-aml-crap/
assbot: Time for Europe to repeal the US-backed AML crap. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J3esew )
mircea_popescu: that unnamed business, for instance, sustained a 600k euro cost of doing business with fiat banking.
mircea_popescu: that was also unpredictable bla bla. and i'm sure the shareholders would very much like management to insulate them from it. if only.
solrodar: so you're saying that bitbet hasn't really been profitable in a long time, but you kept it running for entertainment value?
phf: solrodar: and to finish the thought, you "want" audit to ensure that bitbet holds all the bitcoin for open debts, rather then, say, having it all transfered into kako's or mp's coffers. that's the "reserve" although of course a joking misnomer.
mircea_popescu: phf there's no guarantee offered or even contemplated that bitcoin is not fungible.
mircea_popescu: so in this sense, bitbet's coffers ARE mp's coffers, and no separation is to be had.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26302 @ 0.0004313 = 11.3441 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<< the problem with the democrat's mind is that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking this fantasy of a "silent electorate" to propel him through a life without labour.
mircea_popescu: it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.
phf: i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate
mircea_popescu: hola mats
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44950 @ 0.00043125 = 19.3847 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: phf in general it'd be helpful if other avenues were found from this sort of situation. in any case it'd be good for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.
solrodar: speaking of proceeds, how much of the bitbet IPO was ever completed?
mircea_popescu: iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.
mats: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431729 << sure.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:30:36; pete_dushenski: last one was nigh on two years ago now : http://www.contravex.com/2014/04/07/results-of-first-bitbet-audit-april-7-2014/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00042716 = 5.1259 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431962 << ty☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 12:19:57; mircea_popescu: ahaha ok pretty good.
jurov: mats: "sure" means you apply?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.
mircea_popescu: so i guess... you are now cured of it ?
mats: jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver
mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?
phf: so bitbet has 750.4 in open bets, 742.9 to pay out, 7.5 goes to shareholders/mp?
mircea_popescu: well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve the bets.
mircea_popescu: but roughly speaking sounds about right.
mircea_popescu: if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.
mircea_popescu: but as it is, doesn't seem a workable plan.
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe in some years or whatever.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:39:24; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform funny how this goes.
mircea_popescu: it just happens to be exactly what you said.
phf: so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call there, pay outs go to original addresses, assets are auctioned and the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call there
asciilifeform: well if mircea_popescu demonstrated the logic whereby miner collusion is a necessary hypothesis, vs sybils alone, i must have slept through it ?
asciilifeform: the 'is not stable' thing is pure handwaving.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you not say the words "mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is synthesis from earlier threads where you stated that yes, there are sybils, but your octopus of mpb connecting to various trusted folks, incl. over crypted links, is not sybilable
mircea_popescu: do they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare there's no relay network other than the miner's own" ?
mircea_popescu: if not, then in what way ?
PeterL: phf proceeds from assets should be split between shareholders, mp, kako
phf: PeterL: that is what i said
mircea_popescu: stat rosa pristina, my dear alf.
asciilifeform: there is a network, consisting, apparently, mostly of sybil.
PeterL: oh, looked like you left out shareholders on that part
asciilifeform: to which the miners connect. and likewise everyone else.
mircea_popescu: this model of (perceptible relay) + (imperceptible miners) is nonsense of the ilk of meta-nsa-in-the-sky.
thestringpuller: interesting how much chaos relay policies cause, whereas some want to completely change consensus rules
asciilifeform: at no point did i state a belief in 'imperceptible miners', just observing that the miner collusion is not a necessary hypothesis re the bbet event.
mircea_popescu: well so which is it.
asciilifeform: sybils putting transactions in their pocket and lying about the contents of their mempool, works.
mircea_popescu: can i (one) or can't i (one) ?
asciilifeform: waiwut
asciilifeform: can what?
phf: PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can i relay directly to miners, or can't i ?
mircea_popescu: phf it wasn't ?!
PeterL: phf, to me the listing seems to say during liquidation shareholders get an even share?
solrodar: you just said so yourself
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the bbet event suggested that there was at least one layer of prb between mircea_popescu and the miners.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as a possible explanation.
phf: mircea_popescu: not from what you just said about you and kako paying out of the pocket
mircea_popescu: phf whatever people do with their private funds is their problem, the contract still says the shareholders get it.
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu signed a statement that he transmits directly to the miners, and has no doubt that this is so, because he ran the cable himself, i will believe...
phf: well then
phf: PeterL: you're correct
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i didn't think so, the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432438 << Generally how the bet goes. blood taken over contest being a farce generally doesn't make it to bettors.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:25:50; asciilifeform: is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?
mats: http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:40:42; mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?
mircea_popescu: mats the question under audit's not that ; not that it would prevent you from doing whatever.
mats: also not a big fan of handling other people's money
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is not actually my business how mircea_popescu transmits his tx, but since he chose to present the bbet matter in the tmsr public forum, rather than limiting it to folks 'whose business it is', i will say, that the mpb (client and network both) is a serious ?????? in the story. i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations.
asciilifeform: the 'lighter weight', parsimonious hypothesis is that mpb-net was bamboozled by sybils. rather than miners.
asciilifeform: and that whichever meatspace folk with whom he had peering arrangements, a) bamboozled him and/or b) were in turn bamboozled by their peers.
asciilifeform: i, for instance, will not deal with han chinese unless the deal is strictly cash&carry basis and involves no ongoing trust arrangement.
asciilifeform: learned this from al schwartz, and eminently confirmed in years since.
asciilifeform: perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.
PeterL: I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?
asciilifeform: PeterL: poor example, the extant miners somehow agreed not to mine high-S
asciilifeform: (note, the protocol PERMITS a block with high-S tx. hence my suggestion to build a high-S-only pool.)
asciilifeform: the high-S thing was the most serious, imho, warning bell that there ~is~ such a thing as miner collusion
asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
PeterL: aha, so the high-S thing only proves the miners don't like it, you would need to find something the miners allow but prb does not
asciilifeform: game-theoretically.
asciilifeform: PeterL: correct.
asciilifeform: there is not, reliably, such a thing.
asciilifeform: no-fee tx is only ~approximately~ this.
PeterL: any miner who wants some extra fee-fees just has to sweep up all high-S txn?
asciilifeform: PeterL: aha.
asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.
asciilifeform: as i understand it.
PeterL: the fact that 0-fee txn eventually got mined shows that mp is not completely isolated from miners by prb?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial, but for some reason it did not alarm him that miners could agree on something which theoretically leads to dropping PERFECTLY VALID TX on the floor ?!
asciilifeform: PeterL: well the contention is that it was fired maliciously
asciilifeform: i.e. that someone chose to make a particular exception from ordinary prb rules in order to ding bbet.
asciilifeform: as i understand it.
PeterL: I still don't see the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"
PeterL: as was described previously
asciilifeform: fwiw, i actually thought that mircea_popescu & kakobrekla's original proposed solution was spiffy
PeterL: which solution?
asciilifeform: which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you'
asciilifeform: rather than 'wait for the miners'
PeterL: but that does not stop doublespends?
asciilifeform: it is the job of the payer to sign a valid tx, from valid inputs.
asciilifeform: if he doublespends, you negrate him and move on.
asciilifeform: a la how we deal with folks who kite cheques.
asciilifeform: this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins.
asciilifeform: blockchain is ~nice~ but its correct operation is not guaranteed.
PeterL: although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid the day the transaction was created, rather than the day it goes into block
PeterL: and then payment was not late just because it was a long time getting into block
PeterL: but would bitbet also extend such to their customers? they seem to be pretty firm about if it is not in the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation to shareholders
asciilifeform: PeterL: this must be so because if this were not so, we have buluceala.
asciilifeform: ergo it must be so.
asciilifeform: !s buluceala
assbot: 8 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
solrodar: they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count
asciilifeform: !s from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit
assbot: 1 results for 'from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+tmsr+deficit
asciilifeform: !s from:mircea_popescu deficit
assbot: 12 results for 'from:mircea_popescu deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+deficit
phf: PeterL: i think counterparty problem is asymmetrical. that's your collateral is higher then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership
phf: *that's why
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-07-2015#1185942 and further: core devs made the change in 'prb', miners ate it without thinking twice for the benefits visible on the surface. secondly, block reward is too high for / tx fees too low to expect any heavy optimizations for maximizing fees beyond most simplistic or default☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 21:25:49; kakobrekla: but 'miners' are zombies, will eat whatever comes their way and cant count on them thinking about anything
kakobrekla: even further, when chinese miners were asked about blocksize it was "we dunno, it should be up to core devs, they know what is best"
PeterL: Or it can be viewed in terms of WoT, random guy off the street has no trust from bitbet that he won't doublespend, bitbet has been holding the coins and thus has implicit trust from guy that he will get paid eventually
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: iirc it is specifically mircea_popescu's position that not-this.
asciilifeform: that is, that miners do not prb and are not affected by prbism.
asciilifeform: he can correct me if this is not a valid summary, when he wakes up.
kakobrekla: how do we say, "not enough lsd" is it ?
asciilifeform: certainly i lack the lsd to process the sheer number of my-intel-told-me-so-and-you-will-take-it-on-faith-because-dirigible-and-fuckyou
kakobrekla: aha.
phf: PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure
kakobrekla: PeterL re the solution i proposed shortly after the disaster, see footnote for explanation http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#footnote_3_65290
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: my current understanding, based not only on this incident but others, is that he has pretty good (world class?) humint, but atrocious sigint
asciilifeform: and, like most folks direly missing a tool, come to believe that 'i don't need screwdriver, hammer's claw in expert hands is always just as good or better'
asciilifeform: and yes, i fully grasp why he loathes to deal with the sort of folks who do sigint.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations. << the problem here is that complete transparency can not be achieved for practical reasons. if it could have been, have no doubt i would have preferred to this "under my seal" report avenue.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i believe it.
asciilifeform: but i will note that the story ends up having some of the unpleasant flavour of the usg secret court trials with secret evidence, resultingly.
asciilifeform: perhaps unavoidably. but it does.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial << wasn't that the other one ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it melded into one in your head with the DER encoding thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you' << o no fucking way jesus christ.
mircea_popescu: this is horrible.
asciilifeform: (and not only mircea_popescu , but i think many folks swallowed them in one pill)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is horrible ! but was the pill suggested in the trilema bbet article.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins. << yeah, and guess why.
asciilifeform: it is not a replacement for working bitcoin. but a pill to wake folks up to the fact of the broken one.
asciilifeform: so that wrath can fall on the correct heads.
kakobrekla: aha
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ?
mircea_popescu: or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?
kakobrekla: anyway, you cant really make the horse drink water
mircea_popescu: obviously enumerable, impossible to evaluate. and incidentally - how many fucking weekedns omfg!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my offer to actually pay what that thing costs, stands.
mircea_popescu: solrodar> they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count << this is correct. but he's welcome to consider counterfactuals also. just - shouldn't expect me to present factuals for counterfactuals, should write his own story himself!
mircea_popescu: "it was in the red whatever asciilifeform would take to babysit 4 years of bitbet and resolve 1.2k bets."
asciilifeform: now, i cannot pay what these fine massages from mircea_popescu costs. but if he were not fond of giving them for free, i would have to forgo the massages.
mircea_popescu: and do consider that rarely do you see one that doesn't run into this sort of thing : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424398 ; http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=12-03-2016#1431058 ETC☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 03:18:27; mircea_popescu: in more practical news - jurov here's one for you. https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/ is to be resolved. problem is the res source gives vote % and not a word re seats, and the bet is re seats.
assbot: Logged on 12-03-2016 03:45:55; mircea_popescu: there's a graph, it doesn't touch 1bn.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44250 @ 0.00042716 = 18.9018 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your offer to pay what the thing costs is going to cost us A FUCKING FORTUNE down the road. you understand this ?
mircea_popescu: stop adding indiscipline to the fucking pile.
mircea_popescu: it's neither becoming of your other talents nor any kind of service to the republic.
asciilifeform: mmok
phf: ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.
mircea_popescu: no problem.
phf: i think it's entirely normal for tmsr operation to not have a bedrock, since we've just spent a year exploring just how rotten bedrock is. hosting, "personal affairs", linguistic and architectural choices, what have you.
phf: *"year"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104870 @ 0.00042765 = 44.8477 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima go indulge in sins of the flesh. bbl.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94145 @ 0.00042716 = 40.215 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97433 @ 0.00042665 = 41.5698 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28962 @ 0.00042657 = 12.3543 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: mircea_popescu: it does show seats, but in some HTML5 presentation
jurov: https://volbysr.sk/en/data03.html damn the thing stopped working
assbot: The Election to the National Council of the Slovak Republic 2016 - Final Results ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSD2F5 )
jurov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_parliamentary_election,_2016#Results you can use this, for example
assbot: Slovak parliamentary election, 2016 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSDaEI )
jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin
jurov: deficits go only so far
asciilifeform: jurov: the discussion reminds me of those divorces where the husband/wife end up throwing post-facto 'expenses' at each other for who took out the trash etc
phf: what? the discussion was started by me, to clarify my own understanding, at no point did either side threw expenses at each other. are we even reading same log?
asciilifeform: phf: they never quite got to this point
jurov: yes it was not explicit
asciilifeform: the bbet divorce, as i understand, stopped quite deliberately short of this
asciilifeform: amicable separation, if you will.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24238 @ 0.00042584 = 10.3215 BTC [-]
jurov: and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner
asciilifeform: jurov: but what if the wife had charged market rate for the sexx!111
asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?
jurov: asciilifeform: i don't see anything like that in this case
jurov: it's not about "who took out the trash" but about "who paid the garbage man"
asciilifeform: jurov: well, we have http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 and http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432662 ☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of
asciilifeform: that is, as i understand, mircea_popescu's 'bbet consumed megatonnes of grade-A mptronium which i supplied at no cost, and now people expect be to also put in coin for phree?!'
asciilifeform: *me
phf: that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works
trinque: because http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432489 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
jurov: yes, i understand it too. i only don't understand the "can't be valued" part.
jurov: if it was one-time development paid from the IPO, then fine
jurov: but the maintenance on ongoing basis, needs a prolly a better agreement
asciilifeform: jurov: do you recall that thread where i asked mircea_popescu to tally up what, e.g., 'v' was worth to him, in money ?
asciilifeform: he - correctly - said that i may as well be smoking crack
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46209 @ 0.00042728 = 19.7442 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=12-09-2015#1271492 << mega-obligatory-naggum☝︎
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for grant
jurov: you see 'v' is exactly the one-time thing. time spent by resolving bets, managing the wallet and such is much easier to quantify
asciilifeform: jurov: but neither was a work-for-hire cash'n'carry thing
asciilifeform: which is the point
asciilifeform: you can't price a thing that cannot be in any practical way traded
trinque: ^
asciilifeform: just like it is meaningless to discuss the weight of a planet
trinque: not just "cannot" but more specifically "has never been"
asciilifeform: has not because cannot.
asciilifeform: categorically.
trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically
asciilifeform: trinque: that was pointedly NOT the subject
asciilifeform: the subject was the ORIGINAL.
asciilifeform: specifically.
asciilifeform: see thread.
trinque: I was there for the original thread.
asciilifeform: then see again.
jurov: well, that "someone" whose work "cannot be traded" still has to eat
jurov: where does that come from?
asciilifeform: jurov: not in mircea_popescu's planet !
trinque: asciilifeform: your time lacks a price because nobody bought it
asciilifeform: there it comes from the 10,001 koku of rice a true man collects from his serfs
asciilifeform: or somethinglikethat
trinque: it is not categorically impossible to buy your time
phf: there's an utter lack of compartmentalization going on here. the way bitbet is structured is explicit in the contract. only aspect of the operation that's under consideration is "recieve bets, take percentage, pay out", because that's all that shareholders are party to. everything else is between kako and mp and that aspect worked for them. at no point was this arrangement publicly ~questioned~ by any party involved. i spelled it out in
phf: the logs, some people had a conversation about it, that is all.
trinque: but shout some more about the infinite value of yourself
asciilifeform: trinque: it was more of 0 than an inf
asciilifeform: see thread.
asciilifeform: i think mircea_popescu was the one with the +inf.
asciilifeform: trinque: and it is not impossible to buy my time, just that it is not ~practical~ for anyone i consider worthwhile. because it is sold only in very large parcels, and is not cheap. but this is beside the point.
jurov: phf indeed, assigning the 17btc to shareholders is failure of the compartmentalization
trinque: it is entirely my point that it is a question of practicality and not categorical unpossibleness
asciilifeform: trinque: the thread concerned an invention, rather than a certain amount of my time.
asciilifeform: 'v' did not actually take very long to write.
asciilifeform: but then you also do not get another thing of similar interest by buying x hours of asciilifeform .
phf: jurov: that's a pointless rim shot, that is representative of the level of discourse so far.
trinque: sounds rather like prospecting; you may find nothing, may find something immensely valuable
jurov: phf, so my conclusion that such compartmentalization is prone to problems, wouls be pointless rimshot too?
asciilifeform: trinque: the actual market value of my prospecting is, empirically, ~0.
phf: jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
asciilifeform: so either trinque has to accept that v is demonstrably worthless, or to buy into mircea_popescu's 'non-quantifiable' category, or the like.
phf: jurov: 17 btc issue is possibly covered by agreement, possibly not, requires investigation. question of who was paying for server is irrelevant to the ~issue~, not even mentioned anywhere in corporate paperwork, and also produced zero issues so far that were publicly discussed
jurov: phf but how can the judge decide without precedent? was the problem of appropriate expenses for zerofee corporations put into law or any such test?
asciilifeform: do 0asset corps even exist in meatspace ?
asciilifeform: where ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 283400 @ 0.00042682 = 120.9608 BTC [-] {4}
phf: jurov: that second question is a lot more relevant to the issue then a lot of things that's been said so far
phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on
jurov: for me that question boils down to judge deciding if mircea_popescu acted in good faith or not acc. to agreement.. which is likely not a good thing
jurov: for one person to decide centrally
phf: jurov: there's no "centrally"
asciilifeform: jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf
phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?
jurov: but i already did that short of negrating him, why would i need a judge?
asciilifeform: phf: sadly this is prolly how it will go. at least no mexican ice pick is yet involved.
jurov: phf also judge will prevent the discussion how?
jurov: cmon, i genuinely want to learn what are you onto
phf: i'm a slow thinker, so i'm taking my time
mats dips chicken tender into bbq sauce
BingoBoingo: !b 3
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/36RHJM0.txt )
jurov: while bitbet is frozen, there's not going to be any end to the discussion, i am afraid.
jurov: phf, maybe if you apply for the receiver and do it ;)
asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me what the folks in the dispute actuall want.
asciilifeform: a restarted bbet ?
asciilifeform: for mircea_popescu to admit that he elbowed a button and crashed the tank ?
asciilifeform: (let's say he does - what good does this do ?)
BingoBoingo may be up for continuing to bet on a restarted BBET depending on who acquires it
BingoBoingo though is unlikely to on his own carry a BitBet on his Betting volume
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.
BingoBoingo: yes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58500 @ 0.00042572 = 24.9046 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit.
jurov: i did want bbet restarted, but since today i realized the "can't be valued" part, this is not feasible
jurov: so, best to wind it down
asciilifeform: jurov: this is one of the caveats of the business-cum-guerilla-warfare-battalion animal
BingoBoingo: Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.
asciilifeform: a very heavy dose of can't-be-valued
asciilifeform: but if you stick solely to can-be-valueds, you end up selling pies in the street.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: anything can be sold to scammers/spammers.
asciilifeform: but why would you touch it after that !
jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
jurov: bitbet was not basic research peroject, but a business
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: And that is the problem. Selling to nobies may be the right move to recover stakeholder value, but makes post-sale venture unattractive.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: unattractive is a bit of an understatement.
asciilifeform: utterly radioactive.
asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.
asciilifeform: ever.
asciilifeform: just like i won't fuck a hole in a rusty truck on some godforsaken junkyard lot.
asciilifeform: it is a ludicrous very idea.
asciilifeform: bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none.
jurov: but that boils down exactly to it -- when the new owner goes to assing more value to reddit crowds than b-a wot
jurov: *assign
asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17165 @ 0.00042894 = 7.3628 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: though i have nfi, you'd have to ask him, to be sure.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57950 @ 0.00042558 = 24.6624 BTC [-] {5}
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << this is one of those 3rd rails. there is ~no money actually circulating in the tmsr castle walls.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
jurov: and you know that how?
asciilifeform: because we're all, you see, lordz, and these don't stoop to ever actually paying for anything, they promise one another kokus of rice per year from their serfs if it must come down to it.
phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.
asciilifeform: jurov: very clearly i do not know it for certain, but inferring from the bbet event.
asciilifeform: and from the overall ill health of bbet
jurov: alternatively, there is something but bitbet failed to extract
asciilifeform: so who then extracted ?
asciilifeform: mpoe, trading solely with itself ?!
jurov: i managed to get some crumbs
jurov: but otherwise, that's open question for me, too.
asciilifeform: i guess this is none of our stinking serf business eh
asciilifeform: who the ~real~ lordz trade with
asciilifeform: but i will point out, i see this entire story (the bbet meltdown) though 'shoemaker' eyes, and i never had any idea, whether jurov and kako were part of mircea_popescu's actual inner circle, i.e. folks who actually move serious coin around, privy to how mpb works, physically met his intelligence agents, etc. or not.
asciilifeform: i don't generally ask such questions because i am not dumb enough to expect answer.
jurov: lol i should expect this.
jurov: kakobrekla: should we reveal meta-bitcoin-assets?
asciilifeform: though i admit that i always thought meta-assets consisted wholly (other than mp) of pretty gurlz
jurov: Rest assured he keeps his doings tight, no idea about the girls.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 <<< why is that ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
asciilifeform: but more to earth, what i meant was the set of 'high-powered types' he hangs out with when he is not, in his own words, 'tending the daycare'
phf: fwiw since january 2013 bitbet had ~~301.214btc profit
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has on some occasions mentioned actually having phriends in meatspace.
asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.
asciilifeform: fwiw.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.
asciilifeform: but rather consists of titanic numbers moving on mpex.
asciilifeform: this bothered me in 2013 ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1108 ) but does not bother me today, largely because my giving-a-shit muscle wore out.
assbot: Loper OS » A Review of MPEx, the Bitcoin Stock Exchange. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj4Xdf )
asciilifeform: and because i consider it possible for tmsr to develop into something like a planetoid economy.
asciilifeform: but this is a future thing.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432847 << you just described a cartel, davout .☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"
asciilifeform: the 'everyone else' who 'will ignore'
asciilifeform: is what, exactly ?
phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight, stakeholders were riding that one comfortably until the first snafu
asciilifeform: phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.
phf: right
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56689 @ 0.00042637 = 24.1705 BTC [+] {2}
phf: http://glyf.org/tmp/bbet.png, there's an insignificant downward trend, but payouts are consistent despite bitcoin fluctuations
assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj5Br5 )
jurov: phf well.. such magnitude of payouts is fine for coinbr where i'm alone.. not for 2 owners, shareholders, referees,...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 140155 @ 0.00042675 = 59.8111 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/euihl
assbot: Reject the Ham = All Hell breaks loose : fatpeoplestories ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj6dNA )
BingoBoingo: !up humanoidity
humanoidity: bingo : Thx
humanoidity: would anyone be kind enough to point to a summary of the concerns with bitbet.us ?
jurov: humanoidity: have you seen http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/?
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )
phf: jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.
BingoBoingo: humanoidity: At this point everyone really just has to go through the whole thing and excercise summarizing it for themselves
humanoidity: jurov : reading now. thx for pointer.
humanoidity: Bingo: ack
phf: so about $25 a bet pardon my fiat, ignoring hosting
jurov: phf so you think it can go on this way, like, another 3 years?
phf: is that a serious question?
jurov: why not? is $25 a bet before expenses worth it?
jurov: and this $25 goes to whom? all owners together?
phf: no that's $25 to one owner
phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.00042592 = 34.9254 BTC [-] {4}
phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.
jurov: in any case, thanks for the analysis. you're welcome to put it together as qntra post-mortem, and hopefully get more than $25
humanoidity: Is the 17 BTC the operational for this month, or is it the cash balance for the whole thing ?
jurov: humanoidity: neither
phf: humanoidity: way things stood before bankruptcy, 17btc is what the shareholders would have had to eat for the next n months before getting profits again
humanoidity: Also, I'd be interested to know how much bet money is currently parked at bitbet, and how safe these are
shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432885 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.
jurov: humanoidity: this is tbd
humanoidity: phf : thx for explanation, this answers my question.
jurov: they *are* safe but subject to liquidation, about which i have no idea
humanoidity: jurov: Understood. But it also means payout for resolved bets are frozen, I guess. :(
phf: humanoidity: safety interpretation is between you and your counterparties. 750.4btc, as of right now all in their corresponding addresses
humanoidity: phf : gotcha. So there's quite a bit of cash parked in there atm, and 17btc doesn't look like at huge amount to build back. Why on earth was mp's loan offer rejected ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28150 @ 0.00042462 = 11.9531 BTC [-] {4}
jurov: humanoidity: where do you see a loan?
jurov: it was presented as business expense to be carried by shareholders' future profits
humanoidity: jurov: I read "Nevertheless, I am floating its negative cash balance free of charge, with a view of being defrayed from future profits.". I may not be using the accurate terminology here, but it sounds like a loan.
jurov: ok, i misunderstaood you
jurov: !up humanoidity
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79052 @ 0.00042317 = 33.4524 BTC [-] {4}
phf: so taking out outliers, shareholders would've had to eat it for about 5 months; question is, would've bitbet lasted that long, in which case pitchforking just cost shareholders profits
thestringpuller: phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight << since corporation doesn't hold any cash outside of "day to day operations" and all profit is distributed, dealing with credit is tricky. what if company needs to buy a foo-machine but is too expensive to book as a one time expense?
thestringpuller: does company get lent credit and just book the bill as an expense? it's probably justifiable if done in a way where shareholders still get to see ~some~ profit monthly, but company doesn't go bankrupt paying of credit.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45300 @ 0.0004228 = 19.1528 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: In happier news https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cc5WMCzXIAQxsfM.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UccOkl )
shinohai: lul wut
BingoBoingo: The Bahamas daughter has an ass
phf: thestringpuller: there's a precedent. an mpif credit was extended june 2014 and no dividends paid until credit was payed off july and august.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432883 << hour's pay in fiat is also stuck feeding obamitler, shameekas, lockheeds, and jamie dimon.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:18:12; phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
phf: at how stable bitbet is with an occasional massive positive spike), unless, it's, like, a credit to buy an office in san francisco and pitch second round, who cares?
asciilifeform: and the dime left from the dollar, feeds you.
asciilifeform: this is what usaschwitz means.
BingoBoingo: Well this is why alfs are stuck in alf ghettos instead of regions where they'd have the possibility of surplus income.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: where would this possibility come from ?
asciilifeform: in cheapo regions, labourer is paid proportionately less.
asciilifeform: being a labourer sucks slightly less, or slightly more, between regions, but it sucks fundamentally for entirely fundamental reasons.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It depends, but some less rebelious servile professions get pay that is more geographically flat. See Medical folk et al...
BingoBoingo: But so long as alf doesn't get to telecommute from Ohio, everything to rent bezzle
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: most of'em squeeze out a fairly pathetic existence if you count pay PER HOUR OF ACTUAL SWEAT
asciilifeform: the pay of labourers is parasitized disproportionately by usg et al for the same reason wolf in the forest is covered in ticks
asciilifeform: he elementarily does not have the power to remove them.
asciilifeform: a mircea_popescu - can remove the ticks.
asciilifeform: from own back.
asciilifeform: in fact, does not even consider ticks as a thing, except when specially sitting down to think about it
BingoBoingo: I thought a mircea_popescu had gurlz to do that.
asciilifeform: a wolf, by and large, cannot even conceptualize the ticks
asciilifeform: just knows, i suspect, that he itches, but not why
mats: TIL msft's proprietary disasm lib incudes a superh disasm, assembler
asciilifeform: mats: superb how
asciilifeform: crashed only 1 time in 10, vs other microshits ? or what
mats: asciilifeform: 'SuperH'
asciilifeform: mats: ah
asciilifeform: l0l!
asciilifeform: best misread ever
asciilifeform: but this is not surprise, mats, a buncha 'pocket pc' items circa early 2000s ran on superH
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432809 < you will feel warm and fuzzy inside if no receiver is found in time?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:20:43; asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.
mats: asciilifeform: but windows has never run on it
asciilifeform: mats: sure did
asciilifeform: winblowz ce.
asciilifeform: ran.
asciilifeform: i even have, in my collection, such a thing.
mats: news to me.
asciilifeform: mats: hp 'jornada' series.
asciilifeform: http://www.obsolete-tears.com/photos/HP-Jordana-540-series-ecran.jpg << here's one.
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1YT3OjR )
humanoidity: kakobrekla: for the sake of the newcomers here ... can you expand on why mp's 17BTC offer wasn't acceptable ?
kakobrekla: whats next, he loses 170 btc next month and make bbet pay for it too?
humanoidity: kakobrekal: Ah, I guess the implied message is that you believe mp's to be at fault for the double payout ?
asciilifeform: !up humanoidity
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420300 , http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420304 ....☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:17:04; mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: thx for context, this explains quite a bit, and I'm starting to understand what is making this situation sticky
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432943 << i will feel nothing, it isn't my toy that was broken, nor was i involved in any way in its breakage afaik☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 23:00:27; kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432809 < you will feel warm and fuzzy inside if no receiver is found in time?
asciilifeform: i have 2 bits of emotion kakobrekla
asciilifeform: 3 on a good day.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform you took a side in alphago bet, neh?
asciilifeform: 5 on human
asciilifeform: as announced the day of
kakobrekla: ah, so its a loss-loss for you.
asciilifeform: aha
kakobrekla: lucky you!
asciilifeform: i lost this one pretty solidly
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: my biggest spend of coin to date !111
asciilifeform: i think c3 was actually cheaper
phf: wait, i thought that most likely now ascii just gets his coin back?
asciilifeform: nope
asciilifeform: why would i get it back.
kakobrekla: it still can theoretically
asciilifeform: i lost it fair & square (afaik)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: not really, game was 3 of 5
asciilifeform: unless someone can actually ~prove~ google malfeasance, the bet resolves to a machine win
kakobrekla: its up to receiver to resolve the bets that can be resolved or plain refund all that is possible
phf: ^
asciilifeform: it would seem like that one can be resolved in the entirely ordinary way
asciilifeform: but whatdoiknow.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: is there a path forward to unjam things for bitbet at this point ? I'm not I am fully groking this "receiver" business
kakobrekla: anyway ftr if it would be solely up to me, this mess would have been resolved in a few days tops.
kakobrekla: humanoidity no.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: in a way i 'skipped school', did not lose coin in any of the major catastrophes of the dark ages
asciilifeform: (largely because i had none)
humanoidity: darn
humanoidity: I like this site a lot. Sorta sad to see it go pear-shaped for what seems like a fairly simple governance problem.
asciilifeform: i liked it too.
asciilifeform: it ~WORKED~
humanoidity: Also, I'm thinking ... 17/240 is 0.0229 which ain't much.
kakobrekla: 240?
humanoidity: Sorry, 17/740 = 0.0229
phf: humanoidity: you're probably thinking 750, and that's outstanding bets, that's not directly related to bitbet assets
humanoidity: Yeah, 750. But what I mean is that spreading that 17BTC loss over the 740BTC outstanding bets might be a way out. The only liability will be the site's rep, and the damage won't be irreparable looks like
jurov: humanoidity: if you have good wot standing with kakobrekla and mircea, you can apply for receiver and do it
humanoidity: Whereas 750BTC of outstanding bets evaporating might upset folks a lot.
jurov: or convince someone to do it
humanoidity: jurov: first time on irc, don't even know what 'wot' is :)
jurov: http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets
assbot: first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73Z7o )
jurov: wot = web of trust
humanoidity: got it, thx. will read the noob page now :)
jurov: if you know someone in here http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/ you can ask them for help
assbot: WoT Overview - Btc Alpha ... ( http://bit.ly/231wU3S )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00042417 = 9.4166 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: anyway imho it would be best for everyone for this mess to be cleared by me and mp - however while im making myself available in full capacity it seems to me mp is unwilling
jurov: kakobrekla: several people asked of your coherent statement, did you at least say you're willing to work with the receiver?
kakobrekla: yes its somewhere in the log
humanoidity: kakobrekla: from a newcomer's pov, you guys seem to be fairly upset with one another, which - given what you built together is imo makes this impasse a bit of a waste
kakobrekla: jurov more specifically http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432278 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:20:43; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.
humanoidity: kakobrekla : have you guys explored selling more bitbet shares ? Might be another way to recover those 17BTC, diluting shareholder value a little. And then let bygone etc... and focus on making sure the payout problem can't happen again.
jurov: humanoidity: the contract explicitly forbids dilution
jurov: !up humanoidity
kakobrekla: technical solution to the problem is coded but i dont think it will ever be used. for other solutions - it seems the ship has sailed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20900 @ 0.00042584 = 8.9001 BTC [+] {2}
phf: i take it the issue is not "where" the money comes from (because there's a valid existing venue that worked in the past for this particular usecase), the issue is that of trust, i.e. kako doesn't trust mp for future bitbet operations
humanoidity: jurov: ah, yes, the pgp signed contracts which can't ever be renegociated when external circumstances change. I hadn't realized that.
jurov: they can be renegotiated, if there was mutual will
humanoidity: phf: I see. Hence the "receiver" bizness. Sounds like a marriage counselor is what is needed here :)
kakobrekla: phf you cant have responsibility without liability; no skin in the game - no game. if nothing else, it creates a set of bad incentives. this is how fiat world works and we collectively despise that.
kakobrekla: if bankers are not punished by reality you can end up with the world blowing up
phf: right, so you're saying mp should've eaten the cost to prevent that sort of issues in the future
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60050 @ 0.00042674 = 25.6257 BTC [+] {2}
humanoidity: kakobrekla: what would you consider to be a fair outcome in this quagmire ?
kakobrekla: eating the cost may not guarantee it happening in the future (the technical solution i made was suppose to do that) but it sure would help
kakobrekla: not happening*
humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?
kakobrekla: you dont need devs for that.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: didn't imply you needed them, but getting other knowledgeable folks' opinion on a particular situation doesn't strike me as unreasonable.
humanoidity: Moreover, what bit you here might bite others.
jurov: humanoidity: it was discussed on qntra, even some devs joined
jurov: humanoidity: best if you read last week logs to not repeat everything
humanoidity: ack
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41321 @ 0.00042584 = 17.5961 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43329 @ 0.00042584 = 18.4512 BTC [-]