assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 23:34:21; mpSCAM: idiot went and sent funds from his personal btc wallet made a mistake
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:40:59; mircea_popescu: there's been if memory serves exactly one case of delisted company on these grounds, bvps.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16100 @ 0.00051898 = 8.3556 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00051995 = 5.9274 BTC [+]
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 gentoo trb v99995 was a success
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37400 @ 0.00051993 = 19.4454 BTC [-]
mod6: shinohai: good to hear.
mod6: thanks for testing that out
mod6: <+ascii_field> from under every rock. << yes, im sure.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87000 @ 0.00051904 = 45.1565 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00051847 = 3.3182 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9926 @ 0.00051847 = 5.1463 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20428 @ 0.00051845 = 10.5909 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 22:46:10; ascii_field: anyone else here read the lee sedol games?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70300 @ 0.00051835 = 36.44 BTC [-] {2}
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: why do you hate neural nets? what did they ever do to you?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108000 @ 0.00052182 = 56.3566 BTC [+] {4}
adlai: thestringpuller: i was gonna link you to `!s from:ascii ersatz` but you're right there
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: does the bbet receiver have the authority to determine the cut-off date for acceptable wager resolutions and to refund any bets submitted but deemed "too far away" for the receiver to reasonably hold the funds in escrow ? or is this line in the sand to be drawn by you and kakobrekla ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69900 @ 0.00051818 = 36.2208 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 369170 @ 0.00051708 = 190.8904 BTC [-] {13}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130830 @ 0.00051563 = 67.4599 BTC [-] {6}
xm2hi: getting to know the you guys.
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 20:38:09; ascii_field: is this traditional? (i am not connected with any of this, merely curious how it worx)
xm2hi: spent the whole weekend reading MPEX
nubbins`: i'd say many people are reading the listing agreements
xm2hi: yeah, and about the ecosystem that Mircea has created. impressive records.
xm2hi: and learning about the risk management.
danielpbarron: i was gonna say, it took you all weekend to read them? but that last bit is probably more than a weekend long read
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61450 @ 0.00052124 = 32.0302 BTC [+] {2}
xm2hi: yeah....LOL eyes are a bit blur now.
xm2hi: shall get into WOT soon
xm2hi: bye for now @danielpbarron
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76407 @ 0.00052096 = 39.805 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88800 @ 0.00051625 = 45.843 BTC [-] {2}
adlai wonders who's bot(s) is/are still buying all this S.BBET (at bargain prices!)
adlai: or rather, the better question for discussion - why would anybody want to own shares now?
danielpbarron: >> (a)The representatives of BitBet have elected to divide BitBet into 10`000`000 (ten million) equal non-voting shares with a total equity value of 100 BTC (0.00001 BTC each). In the event of liquidation or breach of this Agreement they solemnly promise and warrant to repay all investors holding shares at this minimum value.
danielpbarron: >> (j) In the event of the sale of BitBet or voluntary liquidation thereof, all proceeds will be distributed fairly to all shareholders by proportion to the shares they hold.
punkman: would that 100btc have to come out of bet money?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76950 @ 0.00051483 = 39.6162 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: seems like S.MPOE holders didn't like the bbet announcement
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19639 @ 0.00051625 = 10.1386 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50750 @ 0.00051625 = 26.1997 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41200 @ 0.00051625 = 21.2695 BTC [+]
nubbins`: danielpbarron does that say that mp and kakobrekla are on the hook for the 0.00001 BTC per share? it says "the representatives", "they solemnly promise and warrant"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69200 @ 0.00051625 = 35.7245 BTC [+]
nubbins`: ah appears so, altho it is only ~30 btc
nubbins`: about 750 btc in outstanding bets
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56850 @ 0.00051474 = 29.263 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56282 @ 0.00051471 = 28.9689 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63122 @ 0.00051418 = 32.4561 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 150500 @ 0.00051379 = 77.3254 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11804 @ 0.00051625 = 6.0938 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100338 @ 0.00051786 = 51.961 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101972 @ 0.00051349 = 52.3616 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33781 @ 0.00051272 = 17.3202 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24050 @ 0.00051475 = 12.3797 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00051594 = 1.5478 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4499 @ 0.00051595 = 2.3213 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68350 @ 0.00051457 = 35.1709 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22150 @ 0.00051272 = 11.3567 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 183878 @ 0.00051227 = 94.1952 BTC [-] {12}
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:13:18; ascii_field: ben_vulpes: folks have destroyed far more precious machines than bbet by elbowing 'wrong button'
ben_vulpes: 'not ready for primetime' fault of bitcoin
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00051532 = 17.8816 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 12-03-2016 18:43:24; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo guy's pretty lulzy. piece pumping him, large lulz potential. jus' sayin'.
BingoBoingo: Please feel free to add further lulz in comments
adlai gives up, after a dozen painful minutes spent trying to squeeze a beatbetification pun out of rosy-smelling corpsorations
gribble: Current Blocks: 402567 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 632 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.86, vol: 4024.57960254 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 414.193, vol: 2839.34471 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 416.4, vol: 10951.16911885 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 420.27693, vol: 25208.39880000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 413.78, vol: 2995.95622037 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 419.7518, vol: 10.61601934 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87154 @ 0.00051076 = 44.5148 BTC [-] {2}
adlai must admit that before reading this latest article, he wasn't sure which party kasich celebrates; and that is still the case
adlai: probably best to leave it thus; 'math is hard'!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46950 @ 0.0005094 = 23.9163 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: adlai: 'Murican politics is like pop kabala, it's nihilism and fraud all the way down
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5708 @ 0.00050928 = 2.907 BTC [-]
adlai might actually like it in that case,, being a nihilistic fraud himself!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28176 @ 0.00051026 = 14.3771 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33162 @ 0.00050921 = 16.8864 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77738 @ 0.00050871 = 39.5461 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63400 @ 0.00051034 = 32.3556 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00050843 = 35.7681 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45700 @ 0.00051038 = 23.3244 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120507 @ 0.00050825 = 61.2477 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109300 @ 0.00050755 = 55.4752 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64593 @ 0.00050548 = 32.6505 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83650 @ 0.00050505 = 42.2474 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00050948 = 14.9278 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72600 @ 0.00050948 = 36.9882 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00050948 = 11.769 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33920 @ 0.0005113 = 17.3433 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47322 @ 0.00050899 = 24.0864 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52100 @ 0.00050796 = 26.4647 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74900 @ 0.00050624 = 37.9174 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 145500 @ 0.00050433 = 73.38 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 2305 @ 0.00277777 = 6.4028 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: <ascii_field> was that the one where operator turned out to be << yes, with the reserve these ex post facto "turned out to be" things deserve.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski> mircea_popescu: does the bbet receiver have the authority to determine the cut-off date for acceptable wager resolutions and to refund any bets submitted but deemed "too far away" for the receiver to reasonably hold the funds in escrow ? or is this line in the sand to be drawn by you and kakobrekla ? << in general this'd be the receiver's authority. a reasonable path is you know, get the domain, put up
mircea_popescu: a "bitbet is in receivership, send no more bets" thing, give it a week or w/e. i doubt the receiver would have to wait out any ongoing bets, can prolly just refund if the reasonable resolution is too far away in the future.
mircea_popescu: but yes, by and large there's a lot of discretionary room for receiver.
mircea_popescu: xm2hi> yeah, and about the ecosystem that Mircea has created. impressive records. << - >> ascii_field> << there will be maxint of these now won't there.
mircea_popescu: of both kinds, i guess. with any luck, balance shifts slowly to the left as time goes on.
mircea_popescu: punkman> would that 100btc have to come out of bet money? << what 100 btc ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100002 @ 0.00050553 = 50.554 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.0005056 = 47.4758 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: old links still work, main page tho is borkt. mebbe it comes back.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85300 @ 0.00050888 = 43.4075 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51150 @ 0.0005101 = 26.0916 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83513 @ 0.00050468 = 42.1473 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00050289 = 23.9376 BTC [-] {5}
nubbins`: punkman 70 of those 100 btc belong to mp/kako anyway
nubbins`: the remaining 30 would come outta mp's/kako's pockets
nubbins`: (ipo proceeds were paid directly to mp/kako rather than to bbet)
nubbins`: altho i guess technically they also could have sold 1mn shares each from 3.2 (f)
nubbins`: so the outstanding liabilities to shareholders could be as high as 50%, tho i doubt it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50004 @ 0.00050179 = 25.0915 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120477 @ 0.00049876 = 60.0891 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51328 @ 0.00049322 = 25.316 BTC [-] {2}
polarbeard: sup trb, any development going on since my patches got fired? B)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68650 @ 0.0004427 = 30.3914 BTC [-] {2}
shinohai: "Unrelated but why is this site's logo a bunny on a fucking Confederate flag?"
polarbeard: but I'm still working in my little scheme-abomination, just slowly
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50448 @ 0.00044269 = 22.3328 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8502 @ 0.00044016 = 3.7422 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: " This firm grasp of sex and gender allowed Kasich to authoritatively heap praise on the legions of women who left their kitchens to help his campaign (archived)."
thestringpuller: meatspace is always over busy. if only traffic didn't exist.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41184 @ 0.00044016 = 18.1275 BTC [-] {2}
polarbeard: it actually doesn't for despicable cyclists like me
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57067 @ 0.00044414 = 25.3457 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 1122 @ 0.00277777 = 3.1167 BTC [-]
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.19, vol: 3554.76960751 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.0, vol: 5376.37856 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 414.15, vol: 9901.60494268 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.679022, vol: 24536.31580000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 412.074, vol: 3161.77970659 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 418.822623, vol: 23.11506716 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
polarbeard: I don't commute, code can be transfered over the wire :)
thestringpuller: only if my coworkers actually worked as they do here when working from home
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100300 @ 0.00044016 = 44.148 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 607 @ 0.00277777 = 1.6861 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 10:20:24; mircea_popescu: ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.
mircea_popescu: i guess either we see a bunch of more games where this theory is tested, or else the great achievement goes into storage to keep the d-wave company.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86600 @ 0.00044016 = 38.1179 BTC [-]
Saweighfteen: slightly less than sixteen; popbabyly unwelcome
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109223 @ 0.00044088 = 48.1542 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.0004437 = 2.3072 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107100 @ 0.00044146 = 47.2804 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85071 @ 0.00044016 = 37.4449 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69484 @ 0.00043844 = 30.4646 BTC [-] {2}
thestringpuller: I have a soft spot for neural networks cause I spent many of my 8th grade lunches in the library building them.
thestringpuller: It would seem Go or any game is playable via neural net if you train the net well enough?
thestringpuller: that was what I focused on the most in 8th grade - LTM in neural netowkrs
thestringpuller: The algo's imo were ahead of their time. Hopfield nets et. al.
thestringpuller: that's why that article was so interesting to me as a 13 year old since the AI in games was exhibiting emergent behavior not seen previously. (or at least throughout my childhood)
thestringpuller: I'll text-ify it later. But I guess point it, don't you think computational power plays a role in what AI does in practice?
assbot: Logged on 09-03-2016 16:19:22; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there were once two schools of thought re: how to do 'ai'
assbot: Logged on 26-01-2016 17:20:06; ascii_butugychag: (there was a spiffy talk at shmoo, which mentioned how nn used in image recognition usually imprints on what - to a human - would be an entirely accidental cluster of pixels, and if you flip'em, it will recognize an obvious, e.g,. cat, as a refrigerator, etc)
thestringpuller: that seems to be a practical problem of neural nets. had an ex who's best friend's dad at the time worked on AI. He told me this story about how they were training a neural net to identify enemy tanks from allied tanks. well all the allied tanks had good pictures. the enemy tanks were recon photos taken at night. So the nn ended up learning to tell difference between photos taken at night vs day
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 20:57:48; mircea_popescu: hence my comment about fragility. there are two main threads here that would-be bitcoin entrepreneurs must heed quite closely. one is that - your expense structure is not either a) in your own control or b) specificable. for as long as your business model involves bitcoin as it currently exists, you're doing the economic equivalent of linking remote dlls.
nubbins`: hot dog vendor: "what if the price of buns goes up?"
thestringpuller: not everyone can have a fully vertically integrated business from the get go
thestringpuller: last time americans tried that all we got were these lousy anti-trust laws
nubbins`: hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:11; ben_vulpes: "I will simply consider the matter moot." << and keep bettor funds if no receiver steps forward?
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:54; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes eventually.
nubbins`: what's the maximum allowed length of a bet on bitbet?
nubbins`: it's not measured in lifespans
nubbins`: asciilifeform i'm not the one who introduced "rest of your life" absurdity here
kakobrekla: it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed
☟︎ nubbins`: no, i'd tell bettors to sign a statement with the address they used to fund their bets, in order to receive a refund
nubbins`: if i couldn't bear to wait X amount of time
kakobrekla: i can publish if someone wants to read. in very short, its: no skin in the game - no game
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00043925 = 14.671 BTC [+] {2}
kakobrekla: i dont think dividends ever paid the bills.
nubbins`: asciilifeform at the risk of once again putting words in kakobrekla's mouth, i think it's just a case of kako being unwilling to sign off on "expenses" introduced by mp that kako felt were not legit
nubbins`: at which point mp's ego took the wheel
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85309 @ 0.00043847 = 37.4054 BTC [-] {2}
kakobrekla: speaking of: i had a 0 fee transaction confirmed today. it was made by mistake on or before 26 feb. and was not visible on any block explorer for the period of 18 days.
kakobrekla: miners konspiraci ? no. inconsistent relay policies? yes.
nubbins`: was there a massive mempool backlog?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 276055 @ 0.00043834 = 121.0059 BTC [-] {5}
phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."
☟︎☟︎ kakobrekla: nubbins` i dont have any data on mempool backlog during the period
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."
nubbins`: not re:marxism-leninism of course
nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.rate.kakobrekla.5:3dd5c75e6eb580d676a8bec10313e0623b3ffc472704cfc7f67d01d4cb8244a9
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 5 for kakobrekla with note: a principled and honourable businessman.
snorera: dont leave any beard bits in the water pls
snorera: or someone dropped a fucking polar bear orf the deep end
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122002 @ 0.00043623 = 53.2209 BTC [-] {4}
nubbins`: in the sense that a lemonade stand is not a food service business, regardless of the nickels rolling around the lemons
nubbins`: no, although mp's demonstrated a karpeles-esque mastery of the protocol lately
nubbins`: asciilifeform hanbot had some pretty sage advice a few years back that was severely overlooked by all parties
snorera: doubtful she can sage too hard
nubbins`: "Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching."
nubbins`: sadly, even though mp worked with mptronics, he failed to heed this advice
nubbins`: thestringpuller idiocy / cheapness
nubbins`: a desire to see the world bend instead of him, etc
thestringpuller: this is what was stated why the payouts were using 0-fee tx?
nubbins`: "i shouldn't have to pay fee because i'm me"
thestringpuller: I'm still confused I guess as to why no fee was used for the payouts..........
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: that happened, and we found it was tx malleability, not a cartel...
snorera: ^what alf said, fee or no, it's protocol
nubbins`: asciilifeform what would have been your conclusion if wednesday was the colour magenta? what, are we discussing hypotheticals now?
nubbins`: asciilifeform what would have been your conclusion if he had paid out bettors 1000 times from 1000 different inputs?
nubbins`: i'm not interested in discussing what my conclusion would have been if something that didn't happen happened.
nubbins`: "what if you had to pick between being electrocuted by your penis and having mr. peanut officiate your wedding?"
nubbins`: asciilifeform see the ocean ranger disaster for another NFI situation
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: pretty difficult to test a defective reactor
nubbins`: asciilifeform but the set of possible reasons is finite and bounded
nubbins`: i'll leave you with one more nugget of applicable advice from hanbot
nubbins`: You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands [when you chose to send a 0-fee tx and you got bitten as a result]. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care.
thestringpuller: well should have waited 18 days for confirmation instead of 1 day?
kakobrekla: yes, they were movable and they moved. how do you say - mega unsurprise.
thestringpuller: bystander shouldn't be standing up during a bank robbery!!!1
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30400 @ 0.00043554 = 13.2404 BTC [-]
gribble: cazalla was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <cazalla> (which in a round about way, probably is ha)
snorera: single handedly increasing th popul;ation
snorera: he's got 4 chinese girls in the shed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125453 @ 0.00043437 = 54.493 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70788 @ 0.00043236 = 30.6059 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 21:22:28; ben_vulpes: ascii_field: game theoretically permawedges obviously.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:35:55; nubbins`: hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?
ben_vulpes: how could i be so thick and naive! asciilifeform points out that the coffers might not even contain anything.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 15:27:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.
davout: protocol says miners can include it or not, at their own option
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.
☟︎ snorera: i meant its likely the reciever woould try to maintain, but i can see yuo as it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55950 @ 0.00043162 = 24.1491 BTC [-] {4}
davout: s.mpoe taking a serious beating today :/
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: let's just think about 'mods' for a moment.
snorera: i guess you've an interest davout?
davout: i have an interests in more things that can fit in 24 hours
snorera: if there isnt i certauinly dont get one
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: hand fabricated lakebed racer
ben_vulpes: i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership.
phf: ben_vulpes: hehe, the 5 stages of grief :)
snorera: reciever just has to work out whjat the fuck is happening
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership. >> and i will be astonished if one day you get off ass, actually do something. but then again, that's our respective problem.
☟︎ solrodar: receiver takes over the business and then either sells it or liquidates it with the intention of maximizing the return to the previous shareholders
solrodar: once receiver is appointed, previous shareholders and management have no say in how the business is run
solrodar: but receiver is obligated to act in shareholders interests
snorera: feel freee to recieve as you like
snorera: id be reporting to mp and kako
solrodar: mircea_popescu: if you mean creditors, they have to respect their claims but they're ultimately working for the shareholders, right
mircea_popescu: well yeah, creditors generally. it can't just go, "hey, shareholder's interest is they get all moneyz so there. problem solved."
solrodar: snorera: there is no reporting, it's a fiduciary arrangement, they can't actually control what the receiver does
solrodar: that's what would distinguish a receiver from an arbitrator
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:04:26; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:07:07; asciilifeform: it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:39:06; kakobrekla: it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed
mircea_popescu: you don't, however, have a manner to walk out of this WITH bitbet, no matter what discussions may pass. it does not belong to you, irrespective what you may think.
solrodar: I am considering it, but doubt I have the necessary reputation here
solrodar: I did the trb call graphing work last year
solrodar: so I have proven a certain amount of technical skill, but this role would also need proven good judgement
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."
mircea_popescu: if you ever throw a party somewhere that isn't in a swamp i wanna come.
mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432210 << so basically we have a community full of people who confuse "voice of sanity" and "people on tilt" liberally, and by and large is willing to "discuss" everything from this arm's length position of "whatever, as long as we're spending other people's money here's what we think", but by and large can't do anything AT ALL ?
☝︎ assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 15:56:32; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.
mircea_popescu: and this is mp's fault, because unlike everyone else he at least you know, try to run the daycare for half a decade ?
mircea_popescu: this new learning amuses me, go protect the earth from earthquakes with banana peels or whatever it is you do for great glory.
phf: nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and
☟︎☟︎ phf: invalidates not just mp, but others who participated in construction of tmsr.
phf: nubbins`: i think it's a pointless to discuss (and takes away from the core of the issue) whether or not miners are conspiring against bitbet. ascii's been known to say that lizard hitler personally disconnected his node, nobody cared to pipe in then, because it's an established local way of talking and thinking (не веришь прими за сказку). miners are a cartel, they can collectively decide what the protocol behavior should be
☟︎ phf: into a controversial protocol behavior, mp called it "miners are conspiring against bitbet". you can personally call mp stupid for that, but there's no "crime" there.
☟︎ phf: nubbins`: the core of the issue (the way i understand it) is whether or not mp can use personal funds to pay out bets, and whether he can later ask for those funds back from shareholders. that seems to contradict the contract, so the accusation goes, he's in breach of contract. seems simple enough.
☟︎ phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision of what has transpired,
☟︎☟︎☟︎ phf: rather then ~everybody~ seemingly losing their shit.
phf: (apologies for wall of text)
mircea_popescu: i was here before you, phf , doing exactly the same thing. so count the whole list thx.
phf: count the whole list?
mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: this usually attracts talkers, if they be any good, at least. exactly the same way it worked for satoshi, and exactly the same way it always seems to work out, a little later you look around and there's all this democracy and "consumers have come to expect" and general bullshit imported, which you don't even rightly feel able to explain whence it came.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48226 @ 0.00043232 = 20.8491 BTC [+] {2}
PeterL: mircea_popescu what about the part of the listing that says shares will be paid out a minimum of 0.00001 ? If selling the domain+code does not cover the 17btc shortfall and this minimum, are you and kakobrekla expected to pay this out of pocket?
☟︎ jurov: phf there is no judge mircea_popescu wuld accept such "verdicts" from. remember when rota decided in similar way?
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
PeterL: didn't MP follow decision of Rota?
PeterL: before closing down rota?
solrodar: yes, and then declared he would never subject himself to something like that again
mircea_popescu: mp did follow it, but jurov is none to bothered with things like logic, or not outright lying, when there's something the monkey on his back WANTS!!1
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:35:22; mircea_popescu: (mp, myself, maybe ascii)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is, like anything else, a voluntary position.
jurov: so am i lying when i say, that you resolved not to subject to any judgement?
mircea_popescu: jurov i said, at the time, that i can't in good conscience allow people to vote largesse out of mpex. plox, read the thing you're talking about.
phf: jurov: and when judge passes a verdict and mp does not comply or whatever the outcome is we can say "tmsr as an instituation has failed and we can walk away" i mean, what's the problem there?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not think you have sufficient brain. business is business, there's nothing "technical point of view" about it.
mircea_popescu: yes, in a different life had you grown to be a jew and went into commercial law rather than kaballah, you would have done fine.
mircea_popescu: phf exactly how is this "not comply" going to work ? cuz i dun follow really.
mircea_popescu: judge is going to rule "hey, mp must continue to spend liberally to try and build a thing out of nothing - BUT THIS TIME WE DECIDE HOW MUCH AND ON WHAT!!1" thus turning tmsr into the 51 state ?
solrodar: I think the real problem here is not the solvency or otherwise of bitbet, but the fact that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have had a breakdown in trust and no longer want to work with each other
solrodar: that could be resolved by other means than liquidation
solrodar: such as by one or both of them selling their controlling interest
PeterL: has anybody expressed interest in buying bitbet yet?
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:13:22; mircea_popescu: by all means. hence, " and if there's a single icann in the lot with enough actual gumption to put together a hostile takeover package, i'll certainly consider it."
phf: mircea_popescu: hey some people clearly want to see blood. i think judgement should exclusively affect only people's wot ratings and is necessary for when the issue is complicated and needs an investigation. sort of like a write up that supreme court judges do. nobody even needs to agree with it
solrodar: mircea_popescu: as I understand the listing agreement, both you and kakobrekla need to agree before either of you can sell your joint 50%
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:36:05; mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you familiar with the saying "can take girl out of the trailer park, but not the trailer park out of the girl" ? that, except for boys.
mircea_popescu: it's the historical and to my eyes first sense of mean / meanness.
PeterL: asciilifeform the receivership of bitbet could include refunding all bet deposits, then the site could be sold without transfering the bet funds, let them restart from scratch?
PeterL: yes, but receiver and buyer would not have to be the same person
PeterL: so these are separate issues
mircea_popescu: well, we're many layers above that, however. in this rarefied atmosphere which, however frustrating, is still many miles above the peasants with their fuckgoat, we meet the twin dragon of, on one hand,
mircea_popescu: "They consider themselves leaderless. They can have representatives, they can have "evangelists" but they have to believe that their conclusions are all their own, through individual reflection and objective consideration. Interestingly, and on purpose, they believe their brains can handle such an analysis, any analysis. This isn't arrogance. They are told, by universities and the media, that their mind is prepared
mircea_popescu: to do this heavy lifting as long as they are given just the right facts, filtered from the noise."
mircea_popescu: and on the other hand, the lulzy "a man that doesn't believe in allah can't possibly not go on a murdering rampage" deeply held if ridiculous, and certainly unexamined belief of egyptian peasants, except translated in time and space to you know, "one in a position of authority is necessarily both bad and responsible!"
mircea_popescu: these are deeper issues that what can be addressed in plain conversation, i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm not doing more shit for free in this context ; not only because it is outrageous for the recipients of charity to direct the disbursement of charity, but most of all because the end result of a world kept clean, warm and humming along on charity is a disproportionate feeling of power in the idle denizens, who then end up running into "steel walls".
mircea_popescu: and to disabuse THAT notion, i don't personally think stalin was either very apt, very smart, or any sort of example to be followed. is, indeed, a notable example for all sorts of things,
mircea_popescu: but most to do with how idiotic everyone else was, not not even measure up to the georgian.
mircea_popescu: a strength both understood and tried to be replicated by a bunchy of lesser copies throughout the "unalligned" movement and well beyond.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36300 @ 0.00043232 = 15.6932 BTC [+]
jurov: stalin surely too tought "bah stupid poor tarstalk redditors!" when someone was criticizing his zerofee experiments with hitler
mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ow fuck, that's ANOTHER thing i won't have to do, resolve that god damned bet, huh.
mircea_popescu: i even promise to not pelt with invective the poor receiver whichever way he chooses to go.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:16:26; mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very different concerns here ; history may be informative but it's never dispositive.
mircea_popescu: not in a manner "technical knowledge" or say a blueprint is.
mircea_popescu: going through a game of go is rare among endeavours in that i can't be doing other things.
thestringpuller: "The server at qntra.net can't be found, because the DNS lookup failed."
thestringpuller: I'll try it from another location later. Guess no qntra at work.
mircea_popescu: it's just this unpleasant "bitbet bets once resolve enact history". i dislike the notion of cementing google's transpared ploy into my blockchain. i'm sure it's all me.
nubbins`: <+phf>nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things <<< nothing about what i did prevents this from continuing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43139 @ 0.00043182 = 18.6283 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: what, you can't fuck around with novel ways of doing things because s.bbet imploded?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99250 @ 0.00043155 = 42.8313 BTC [-] {4}
phf: nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49637 @ 0.00043172 = 21.4293 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00043122 = 24.6658 BTC [-] {2}
mats: hello lords and peers
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:37:40; asciilifeform: nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.
assbot: Logged on 07-04-2014 19:36:22; kakobrekla: cool, so its a double reverse fractional reserve
phf: solrodar: nothing need have happened to warrant that question. reserve is there to pay out what was payed in. can't pay for server from reserve. ascii's question is not pointed, he's never seen bitbet's paperwork and is surprised that a business can run without own assets.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93550 @ 0.00043262 = 40.4716 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> nubbins`: or was the idea << or possibly the system that worked well for s.dice was simply carried forward, with not enough thought given to the matter. "hey, it's also gambling".
solrodar: well obviously the whole 0-asset thing was always an accounting fiction
mircea_popescu: dunno, and the people involved had not the foresight to leave us detailed records of how that logic went.
solrodar: it's very easy to enumerate bitbet's assets and liabilities, as mp has done
solrodar: but were there ever any reserves, or was that audit a misunderstanding?
phf: seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.
mircea_popescu: the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.
mircea_popescu: phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.
mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: so he rather cavallierly offered to continue eating the server while i continue eating the admin.
mircea_popescu: but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance
solrodar: your expenses meaning your time?
mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
☟︎☟︎ phf: so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket
mircea_popescu: there's of course also the cost of handling bitcoin payments, which is very VERY far from "free", irrespective what the "big blocks" derps think.
mircea_popescu: but currently, the actual bitcoin network fee doesn't even ammount to 1% of the actual cost of interacting with this sprawling pile of shit.
mircea_popescu: now, one could say "the same is true of fiat banking", and BY AND LARGE THEY WOULD BE RIGHT. see for instance
mircea_popescu: that unnamed business, for instance, sustained a 600k euro cost of doing business with fiat banking.
mircea_popescu: that was also unpredictable bla bla. and i'm sure the shareholders would very much like management to insulate them from it. if only.
solrodar: so you're saying that bitbet hasn't really been profitable in a long time, but you kept it running for entertainment value?
phf: solrodar: and to finish the thought, you "want" audit to ensure that bitbet holds all the bitcoin for open debts, rather then, say, having it all transfered into kako's or mp's coffers. that's the "reserve" although of course a joking misnomer.
mircea_popescu: phf there's no guarantee offered or even contemplated that bitcoin is not fungible.
mircea_popescu: so in this sense, bitbet's coffers ARE mp's coffers, and no separation is to be had.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26302 @ 0.0004313 = 11.3441 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<< the problem with the democrat's mind is that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking this fantasy of a "silent electorate" to propel him through a life without labour.
mircea_popescu: it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.
phf: i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44950 @ 0.00043125 = 19.3847 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: phf in general it'd be helpful if other avenues were found from this sort of situation. in any case it'd be good for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.
solrodar: speaking of proceeds, how much of the bitbet IPO was ever completed?
mircea_popescu: iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00042716 = 5.1259 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 12:19:57; mircea_popescu: ahaha ok pretty good.
jurov: mats: "sure" means you apply?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.
☟︎ mats: jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver
phf: so bitbet has 750.4 in open bets, 742.9 to pay out, 7.5 goes to shareholders/mp?
mircea_popescu: well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve the bets.
mircea_popescu: if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:39:24; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.
phf: so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call there, pay outs go to original addresses, assets are auctioned and the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call there
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you not say the words "mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz" ?
mircea_popescu: do they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare there's no relay network other than the miner's own" ?
PeterL: phf proceeds from assets should be split between shareholders, mp, kako
phf: PeterL: that is what i said
PeterL: oh, looked like you left out shareholders on that part
mircea_popescu: this model of (perceptible relay) + (imperceptible miners) is nonsense of the ilk of meta-nsa-in-the-sky.
thestringpuller: interesting how much chaos relay policies cause, whereas some want to completely change consensus rules
phf: PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can i relay directly to miners, or can't i ?
PeterL: phf, to me the listing seems to say during liquidation shareholders get an even share?
phf: mircea_popescu: not from what you just said about you and kako paying out of the pocket
mircea_popescu: phf whatever people do with their private funds is their problem, the contract still says the shareholders get it.
phf: PeterL: you're correct
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i didn't think so, the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:25:50; asciilifeform: is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?
mats:
http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:40:42; mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?
mircea_popescu: mats the question under audit's not that ; not that it would prevent you from doing whatever.
mats: also not a big fan of handling other people's money
PeterL: I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?
PeterL: aha, so the high-S thing only proves the miners don't like it, you would need to find something the miners allow but prb does not
PeterL: any miner who wants some extra fee-fees just has to sweep up all high-S txn?
PeterL: the fact that 0-fee txn eventually got mined shows that mp is not completely isolated from miners by prb?
PeterL: I still don't see the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"
PeterL: as was described previously
PeterL: but that does not stop doublespends?
PeterL: although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid the day the transaction was created, rather than the day it goes into block
PeterL: and then payment was not late just because it was a long time getting into block
PeterL: but would bitbet also extend such to their customers? they seem to be pretty firm about if it is not in the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation to shareholders
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
solrodar: they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count
phf: PeterL: i think counterparty problem is asymmetrical. that's your collateral is higher then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 21:25:49; kakobrekla: but 'miners' are zombies, will eat whatever comes their way and cant count on them thinking about anything
kakobrekla: even further, when chinese miners were asked about blocksize it was "we dunno, it should be up to core devs, they know what is best"
PeterL: Or it can be viewed in terms of WoT, random guy off the street has no trust from bitbet that he won't doublespend, bitbet has been holding the coins and thus has implicit trust from guy that he will get paid eventually
kakobrekla: how do we say, "not enough lsd" is it ?
phf: PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations. << the problem here is that complete transparency can not be achieved for practical reasons. if it could have been, have no doubt i would have preferred to this "under my seal" report avenue.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial << wasn't that the other one ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you' << o no fucking way jesus christ.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins. << yeah, and guess why.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?
kakobrekla: anyway, you cant really make the horse drink water
mircea_popescu: obviously enumerable, impossible to evaluate. and incidentally - how many fucking weekedns omfg!
mircea_popescu: solrodar> they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count << this is correct. but he's welcome to consider counterfactuals also. just - shouldn't expect me to present factuals for counterfactuals, should write his own story himself!
mircea_popescu: "it was in the red whatever asciilifeform would take to babysit 4 years of bitbet and resolve 1.2k bets."
assbot: Logged on 12-03-2016 03:45:55; mircea_popescu: there's a graph, it doesn't touch 1bn.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44250 @ 0.00042716 = 18.9018 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your offer to pay what the thing costs is going to cost us A FUCKING FORTUNE down the road. you understand this ?
mircea_popescu: it's neither becoming of your other talents nor any kind of service to the republic.
phf: ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.
phf: i think it's entirely normal for tmsr operation to not have a bedrock, since we've just spent a year exploring just how rotten bedrock is. hosting, "personal affairs", linguistic and architectural choices, what have you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104870 @ 0.00042765 = 44.8477 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94145 @ 0.00042716 = 40.215 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97433 @ 0.00042665 = 41.5698 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28962 @ 0.00042657 = 12.3543 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: mircea_popescu: it does show seats, but in some HTML5 presentation
jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin
☟︎ jurov: deficits go only so far
phf: what? the discussion was started by me, to clarify my own understanding, at no point did either side threw expenses at each other. are we even reading same log?
jurov: yes it was not explicit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24238 @ 0.00042584 = 10.3215 BTC [-]
jurov: and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner
☟︎ jurov: asciilifeform: i don't see anything like that in this case
jurov: it's not about "who took out the trash" but about "who paid the garbage man"
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of
phf: that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
jurov: yes, i understand it too. i only don't understand the "can't be valued" part.
jurov: if it was one-time development paid from the IPO, then fine
jurov: but the maintenance on ongoing basis, needs a prolly a better agreement
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46209 @ 0.00042728 = 19.7442 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for grant
jurov: you see 'v' is exactly the one-time thing. time spent by resolving bets, managing the wallet and such is much easier to quantify
trinque: not just "cannot" but more specifically "has never been"
trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically
☟︎ trinque: I was there for the original thread.
jurov: well, that "someone" whose work "cannot be traded" still has to eat
☟︎ jurov: where does that come from?
trinque: asciilifeform: your time lacks a price because nobody bought it
trinque: it is not categorically impossible to buy your time
☟︎ phf: there's an utter lack of compartmentalization going on here. the way bitbet is structured is explicit in the contract. only aspect of the operation that's under consideration is "recieve bets, take percentage, pay out", because that's all that shareholders are party to. everything else is between kako and mp and that aspect worked for them. at no point was this arrangement publicly ~questioned~ by any party involved. i spelled it out in
phf: the logs, some people had a conversation about it, that is all.
trinque: but shout some more about the infinite value of yourself
jurov: phf indeed, assigning the 17btc to shareholders is failure of the compartmentalization
trinque: it is entirely my point that it is a question of practicality and not categorical unpossibleness
phf: jurov: that's a pointless rim shot, that is representative of the level of discourse so far.
trinque: sounds rather like prospecting; you may find nothing, may find something immensely valuable
jurov: phf, so my conclusion that such compartmentalization is prone to problems, wouls be pointless rimshot too?
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
phf: jurov: 17 btc issue is possibly covered by agreement, possibly not, requires investigation. question of who was paying for server is irrelevant to the ~issue~, not even mentioned anywhere in corporate paperwork, and also produced zero issues so far that were publicly discussed
jurov: phf but how can the judge decide without precedent? was the problem of appropriate expenses for zerofee corporations put into law or any such test?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 283400 @ 0.00042682 = 120.9608 BTC [-] {4}
phf: jurov: that second question is a lot more relevant to the issue then a lot of things that's been said so far
phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on
☟︎ jurov: for me that question boils down to judge deciding if mircea_popescu acted in good faith or not acc. to agreement.. which is likely not a good thing
jurov: for one person to decide centrally
phf: jurov: there's no "centrally"
phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?
☟︎ jurov: but i already did that short of negrating him, why would i need a judge?
jurov: phf also judge will prevent the discussion how?
jurov: cmon, i genuinely want to learn what are you onto
phf: i'm a slow thinker, so i'm taking my time
mats dips chicken tender into bbq sauce
jurov: while bitbet is frozen, there's not going to be any end to the discussion, i am afraid.
jurov: phf, maybe if you apply for the receiver and do it ;)
BingoBoingo may be up for continuing to bet on a restarted BBET depending on who acquires it
BingoBoingo though is unlikely to on his own carry a BitBet on his Betting volume
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58500 @ 0.00042572 = 24.9046 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: i did want bbet restarted, but since today i realized the "can't be valued" part, this is not feasible
jurov: so, best to wind it down
BingoBoingo: Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.
jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
☟︎☟︎ jurov: bitbet was not basic research peroject, but a business
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: And that is the problem. Selling to nobies may be the right move to recover stakeholder value, but makes post-sale venture unattractive.
jurov: but that boils down exactly to it -- when the new owner goes to assing more value to reddit crowds than b-a wot
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17165 @ 0.00042894 = 7.3628 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57950 @ 0.00042558 = 24.6624 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
jurov: and you know that how?
phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.
☟︎ jurov: alternatively, there is something but bitbet failed to extract
jurov: i managed to get some crumbs
jurov: but otherwise, that's open question for me, too.
jurov: lol i should expect this.
jurov: kakobrekla: should we reveal meta-bitcoin-assets?
jurov: Rest assured he keeps his doings tight, no idea about the girls.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
phf: fwiw since january 2013 bitbet had ~~301.214btc profit
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.
☟︎ phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight, stakeholders were riding that one comfortably until the first snafu
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56689 @ 0.00042637 = 24.1705 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: phf well.. such magnitude of payouts is fine for coinbr where i'm alone.. not for 2 owners, shareholders, referees,...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 140155 @ 0.00042675 = 59.8111 BTC [+]
humanoidity: would anyone be kind enough to point to a summary of the concerns with bitbet.us ?
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )
phf: jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: humanoidity: At this point everyone really just has to go through the whole thing and excercise summarizing it for themselves
phf: so about $25 a bet pardon my fiat, ignoring hosting
jurov: phf so you think it can go on this way, like, another 3 years?
phf: is that a serious question?
jurov: why not? is $25 a bet before expenses worth it?
jurov: and this $25 goes to whom? all owners together?
phf: no that's $25 to one owner
phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.00042592 = 34.9254 BTC [-] {4}
phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.
☟︎☟︎ jurov: in any case, thanks for the analysis. you're welcome to put it together as qntra post-mortem, and hopefully get more than $25
humanoidity: Is the 17 BTC the operational for this month, or is it the cash balance for the whole thing ?
jurov: humanoidity: neither
phf: humanoidity: way things stood before bankruptcy, 17btc is what the shareholders would have had to eat for the next n months before getting profits again
humanoidity: Also, I'd be interested to know how much bet money is currently parked at bitbet, and how safe these are
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.
jurov: humanoidity: this is tbd
humanoidity: phf : thx for explanation, this answers my question.
jurov: they *are* safe but subject to liquidation, about which i have no idea
humanoidity: jurov: Understood. But it also means payout for resolved bets are frozen, I guess. :(
phf: humanoidity: safety interpretation is between you and your counterparties. 750.4btc, as of right now all in their corresponding addresses
humanoidity: phf : gotcha. So there's quite a bit of cash parked in there atm, and 17btc doesn't look like at huge amount to build back. Why on earth was mp's loan offer rejected ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28150 @ 0.00042462 = 11.9531 BTC [-] {4}
jurov: humanoidity: where do you see a loan?
jurov: it was presented as business expense to be carried by shareholders' future profits
humanoidity: jurov: I read "Nevertheless, I am floating its negative cash balance free of charge, with a view of being defrayed from future profits.". I may not be using the accurate terminology here, but it sounds like a loan.
jurov: ok, i misunderstaood you
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79052 @ 0.00042317 = 33.4524 BTC [-] {4}
phf: so taking out outliers, shareholders would've had to eat it for about 5 months; question is, would've bitbet lasted that long, in which case pitchforking just cost shareholders profits
thestringpuller: phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight << since corporation doesn't hold any cash outside of "day to day operations" and all profit is distributed, dealing with credit is tricky. what if company needs to buy a foo-machine but is too expensive to book as a one time expense?
thestringpuller: does company get lent credit and just book the bill as an expense? it's probably justifiable if done in a way where shareholders still get to see ~some~ profit monthly, but company doesn't go bankrupt paying of credit.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45300 @ 0.0004228 = 19.1528 BTC [-] {2}
phf: thestringpuller: there's a precedent. an mpif credit was extended june 2014 and no dividends paid until credit was payed off july and august.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:18:12; phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
phf: at how stable bitbet is with an occasional massive positive spike), unless, it's, like, a credit to buy an office in san francisco and pitch second round, who cares?
BingoBoingo: Well this is why alfs are stuck in alf ghettos instead of regions where they'd have the possibility of surplus income.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It depends, but some less rebelious servile professions get pay that is more geographically flat. See Medical folk et al...
BingoBoingo: But so long as alf doesn't get to telecommute from Ohio, everything to rent bezzle
BingoBoingo: I thought a mircea_popescu had gurlz to do that.
mats: TIL msft's proprietary disasm lib incudes a superh disasm, assembler
mats: asciilifeform: 'SuperH'
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:20:43; asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.
mats: asciilifeform: but windows has never run on it
humanoidity: kakobrekla: for the sake of the newcomers here ... can you expand on why mp's 17BTC offer wasn't acceptable ?
kakobrekla: whats next, he loses 170 btc next month and make bbet pay for it too?
☟︎☟︎ humanoidity: kakobrekal: Ah, I guess the implied message is that you believe mp's to be at fault for the double payout ?
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:17:04; mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: thx for context, this explains quite a bit, and I'm starting to understand what is making this situation sticky
kakobrekla: asciilifeform you took a side in alphago bet, neh?
phf: wait, i thought that most likely now ascii just gets his coin back?
kakobrekla: its up to receiver to resolve the bets that can be resolved or plain refund all that is possible
humanoidity: kakobrekla: is there a path forward to unjam things for bitbet at this point ? I'm not I am fully groking this "receiver" business
kakobrekla: anyway ftr if it would be solely up to me, this mess would have been resolved in a few days tops.
humanoidity: I like this site a lot. Sorta sad to see it go pear-shaped for what seems like a fairly simple governance problem.
humanoidity: Also, I'm thinking ... 17/240 is 0.0229 which ain't much.
phf: humanoidity: you're probably thinking 750, and that's outstanding bets, that's not directly related to bitbet assets
humanoidity: Yeah, 750. But what I mean is that spreading that 17BTC loss over the 740BTC outstanding bets might be a way out. The only liability will be the site's rep, and the damage won't be irreparable looks like
jurov: humanoidity: if you have good wot standing with kakobrekla and mircea, you can apply for receiver and do it
humanoidity: Whereas 750BTC of outstanding bets evaporating might upset folks a lot.
jurov: or convince someone to do it
humanoidity: jurov: first time on irc, don't even know what 'wot' is :)
jurov: wot = web of trust
humanoidity: got it, thx. will read the noob page now :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00042417 = 9.4166 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: anyway imho it would be best for everyone for this mess to be cleared by me and mp - however while im making myself available in full capacity it seems to me mp is unwilling
☟︎ jurov: kakobrekla: several people asked of your coherent statement, did you at least say you're willing to work with the receiver?
humanoidity: kakobrekla: from a newcomer's pov, you guys seem to be fairly upset with one another, which - given what you built together is imo makes this impasse a bit of a waste
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:20:43; mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.
humanoidity: kakobrekla : have you guys explored selling more bitbet shares ? Might be another way to recover those 17BTC, diluting shareholder value a little. And then let bygone etc... and focus on making sure the payout problem can't happen again.
jurov: humanoidity: the contract explicitly forbids dilution
kakobrekla: technical solution to the problem is coded but i dont think it will ever be used. for other solutions - it seems the ship has sailed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20900 @ 0.00042584 = 8.9001 BTC [+] {2}
phf: i take it the issue is not "where" the money comes from (because there's a valid existing venue that worked in the past for this particular usecase), the issue is that of trust, i.e. kako doesn't trust mp for future bitbet operations
humanoidity: jurov: ah, yes, the pgp signed contracts which can't ever be renegociated when external circumstances change. I hadn't realized that.
jurov: they can be renegotiated, if there was mutual will
humanoidity: phf: I see. Hence the "receiver" bizness. Sounds like a marriage counselor is what is needed here :)
kakobrekla: phf you cant have responsibility without liability; no skin in the game - no game. if nothing else, it creates a set of bad incentives. this is how fiat world works and we collectively despise that.
kakobrekla: if bankers are not punished by reality you can end up with the world blowing up
phf: right, so you're saying mp should've eaten the cost to prevent that sort of issues in the future
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60050 @ 0.00042674 = 25.6257 BTC [+] {2}
humanoidity: kakobrekla: what would you consider to be a fair outcome in this quagmire ?
kakobrekla: eating the cost may not guarantee it happening in the future (the technical solution i made was suppose to do that) but it sure would help
humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?
☟︎ humanoidity: kakobrekla: didn't imply you needed them, but getting other knowledgeable folks' opinion on a particular situation doesn't strike me as unreasonable.
humanoidity: Moreover, what bit you here might bite others.
jurov: humanoidity: it was discussed on qntra, even some devs joined
jurov: humanoidity: best if you read last week logs to not repeat everything
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41321 @ 0.00042584 = 17.5961 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43329 @ 0.00042584 = 18.4512 BTC [-]