tmsr - Log 2016-06-10

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shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479757 Says "I'm not much of a writer", writes awesome bot. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:42 mod6: I'm not much of a writer. Obviously.

mod6: o7

mod6: Couldn't have done it without you though, thanks for all the testing help. Most sincerely.

shinohai: Glad to have been help and not hindrance ... 'twas an honour to participate.

shinohai: And really fun, learned a lot about perl I didn't before.

mod6: salud; now that we've got a ticketing system, we can see how much there really is to do still! haha.

mod6: much more to come / work on.

mod6 turning people to the dark side, one at a time.

shinohai: Well this place has kinda mrphed into full-time between Bitcoin and Qntra lol

shinohai: *morphed

mod6: watch out or you'll start writing #!/usr/bin/perl all the time

mod6: :D

trinque: mircea_popescu: mike_c told me he was able to connect to my db; subsequently haven't heard from him

shinohai: Since we finished the rss thing last night, I'm already working on a new one xD

asciilifeform lands face first into gnarly l0gz

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479597 << veeery labour-intensive to read ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 22:25 mod6: http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/trb_ticket_graph.html

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479630 << lel what in satan's name is this for?? ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 22:59 mircea_popescu: %add UCI F "Create UCI worker for Windows (10, 7, 8/8.1)" "Worker should interface with kernel, execute all UCI commands, meter resource usage."

mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479597 << veeery labour-intensive to read << ok, noted. so my first stab at this... more here please. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 22:25 mod6: http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/trb_ticket_graph.html

mod6: its hard because there are like a number of disconnected graphs, or hard because of mental gymnastics? i'd like to make it better, so your input helps.

asciilifeform: because clicking

asciilifeform: i have it on a 2160x3840 display

asciilifeform: why should there be ocean of white

asciilifeform: vs the text that wants to be in them bubbles.

mod6: i probably could/should have all of the tickets clumped under one tree. but i need to work on the tickets and ordering etc.

asciilifeform: thing is a good start

asciilifeform: maybe borrow phf's formatting code he used in his patch viewer?

mod6: i'll see what i can do, ya. ok.

asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479673 << i distinctly recall mircea_popescu outlining this wish list a while back. but must confess that i suspect cpu cycle rental - even PINCHED cycles from OTHER PEOPLE, in botnet - to be a -ev proposition. strange, but there it is. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:04 mircea_popescu: does this make sense to anyone outside of yours truly ? asciilifeform ? davout ? jurov ? phf ? trinque ?

gribble: The operation succeeded.

asciilifeform: one of them things that costs more to parcel out than it is worth.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479676 << i suspect that there are not half a million machines with decent bandwidth and disk. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:06 mircea_popescu: do anything you damn well please - from hosting your (uninterdictable) website on half a million random machines to nuking whitehouse.org

asciilifeform: but more importantly, the software stack that gives you anything like smooth migration between rapidly born and dying machines, is NOT THERE

asciilifeform: was not invented.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ever personally arrange a db replication thing ?

asciilifeform: recall how much misery ?

asciilifeform: and that's with 2+ DECENT unixlike boxen, with DECENT bandwidth and ~reasonably reliable hardware, that you CONTROL...

asciilifeform: this is sorta like our 'revelation' re crypto a few months back.

asciilifeform: there is ~no tech, only duct tape and chewing gum.

asciilifeform: as for ddosing, usg infrastructure is ddosproof because they multi-head their dns or whatever the term was for the thing you can ONLY do with crapflare

asciilifeform: ddos only exists for the rest of us. ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479680 << not that, either. because how do you VERIFY ????? ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:11 mircea_popescu: if nothing else, it'll put an actual market rate on running bitcoin nodes.

asciilifeform: it is in principle quite impossible to verify that the thing you wanted computed, was computed, unless it is very tangible input/output pair like mersenne primes or whatnot.

asciilifeform: it is certainly impossible to reliably distinguish node from pseudonode, for instance.

asciilifeform: the other thing about renting out pwned boxes,

asciilifeform: is that a reasonably competent griefer can rent the chumpnet and ~clean it~ ☟︎

asciilifeform: or at least perma-hose the boxen.

asciilifeform: and there cannot even in principle be an answer to this.

asciilifeform: the only reason it does not happen more often with garden-variety botnets is that competent folk are few and far between and no one in particular is a sufficiently-appealing target.

asciilifeform has been contemplating this very subj for many, many years.

asciilifeform: it is ~precisely~ the 'rent out the space inside your nose!' contemplated in one of mircea_popescu's articles.

BingoBoingo: Nah, renting out the space in OTHER people's noses

asciilifeform: dun wurk either.

asciilifeform: you rent out yer chumpnet, and some bozo installs, e.g., 'cryptolocker', on all the nodes. ☟︎

asciilifeform: now wat.

asciilifeform: you need a new one ?

mod6: BingoBoingo you may want to update the 'about' page on qntra, buncha #bitcoin-assets links and such.

shinohai: ^

phf: asciilifeform: i thought that botnets had pre-programmed set of functions, like "rent botnet to ddos" or "rent botnet to spam", and that functions were provided by owner ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479838 << i was speaking of how most folks even get their proggy on the infected boxes in the first place ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 01:03 phf: asciilifeform: i thought that botnets had pre-programmed set of functions, like "rent botnet to ddos" or "rent botnet to spam", and that functions were provided by owner

asciilifeform: typically they pay 'per install'

asciilifeform: riding, so to speak, a bus

phf: oh interesting

asciilifeform: this model is traditional but plays poorly with, e.g., cryptolockers, as these often result in hosed and reformatted box

asciilifeform: i have nfi what will replace it.

phf: i've been burned by fellow scriptkiddies back in my scriptkiddy days enough times to not trust anyone with that sort of open access. i thought that would be the case with others. perhaps there's a distinction between "us" and "johns" happening here. if the person is paying for botnet access, is probably mark to begin with

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479772 << elided e's. feats of fortitude :D ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:59 shinohai: btw mircea_popescu "Pace in our Time!" good one

asciilifeform: thing is, ~all trojans share heavily infested box.

phf: but you can easily upgrade open access service to a custom service and charge for the extra work too. if you want your ads injected on all machines, you don't get to put own exe, needs to spec out the problem and give it to botnet owner to develop. also means that particularly losery owners will rapidly transfer their botnets to smarter crowd ☟︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479792 << exactly. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:18 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479630 << lel what in satan's name is this for??

phf: but then i'm just talking out of my ass, i've been out of that field for a long time. i just suspect that the scenario you describe is already pretty common and is probably part of разборки

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479805 << doesn't have to be botnet. for one thing, once this is ready i'll be running it on dedi boxes. for another thing, you make your own administrative policies. sell for whatever price you want whatever you want to sell. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:22 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479673 << i distinctly recall mircea_popescu outlining this wish list a while back. but must confess that i suspect cpu cycle rental - even PINCHED cycles from OTHER PEOPLE, in botnet - to be a -ev proposition. strange, but there it is.

mircea_popescu: storage only for instance.

asciilifeform: why would you want unreliable storage?

mircea_popescu: because unreliable is much much better than "reliable"

asciilifeform: didn't we do the 1024 chickens thing?

mircea_popescu: currently we have "reliable", and i don't want it.

asciilifeform: how many chickens adds up to mercedes motor?

asciilifeform: and let's also say a % of'em are dead at any time, and dragged along by living

mircea_popescu: never mind the chicken perspective. this commoditizes computers.

phf: build for the ecosystem you have not the ecosystem you want sort of thing

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~would~ commoditize. if anyone knew how.

mircea_popescu: ALL computers. ie, the computer attached to the 3d printer as much as to the atm at the bank as much as anything else.

mircea_popescu: bitcoin is good, but ~not enough. it's not enough for enemy to be unable to retain the salaried interest of dea thugs.

mircea_popescu: they must be ~unable to retain control over any box.

mircea_popescu: "apparently an intern installed uci. it's the third time this week."

asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu just wants an ordinary chumpnet that is a different and far more practical convo.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479809 << factually, there's about a billion and a half of them. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479676 << i suspect that there are not half a million machines with decent bandwidth and disk.

asciilifeform: and flows from gossipd.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually this should work as a proper tor relay for gossipd.

asciilifeform: this, yes .

mircea_popescu: other than the numerous deliberate sabotages, tor fails in a game theoretic manner - no incentive to participate.

mircea_popescu: socialism.

asciilifeform: but as for 'host a blog ON it and it be readable more often than not' - nobody yet discovered how.

mircea_popescu: give it some time, it'll work fine. if aws works, if folding@home works, if torrents work this'll work superbly.

asciilifeform: aws uses far bigger chunks.

asciilifeform: and reliable pipes.

asciilifeform: anyway afaik state of the art re dht remains edonkey.

mircea_popescu: be all that as it may.

asciilifeform: students of subj ought to begin there.

asciilifeform: and kademlia.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479819 << allow me to lol. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:27 asciilifeform: ddos only exists for the rest of us.

mircea_popescu: possibly gnutella also of interest.

asciilifeform: as example of what NOT to do.

asciilifeform: it sucked balls.

asciilifeform: slow.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479820 << exactly how you "verify" now. go, verify phuctor. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:27 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479680 << not that, either. because how do you VERIFY ?????

asciilifeform: see log

asciilifeform: there is a class of easy verifiables

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479825 << there's a wot for this. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:29 asciilifeform: is that a reasonably competent griefer can rent the chumpnet and ~clean it~

asciilifeform: and a far bigger class of easy pseudonodables.

mircea_popescu: a "reasonable competent" whatever could... what, bother deedbot. hurr durr.

mircea_popescu: really, these objections belong pre 2010.

asciilifeform: this is a little different. 'somebody dropped nuke on me' 'negrate him!''

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fact remains you can not, at this present time, distinguish your own node on random box from faux node planted there.

asciilifeform: tru!!

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this "little different" is essentially saying "the wot is a nice toy but it'll never scale".

asciilifeform: at least from outside.

mircea_popescu: you're welcome to believe that, if you wish. but this place is constructed on that being stupid.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: scales but note how wot dun keep anyone from being stabbed, we have other tools for that

asciilifeform: it is part of balanced diet of defense

mircea_popescu: still ; you have a botnet you're worried about, can parcel it out, rent 10 chunks of 1k machines to 10 people, see who runs with it etc.

mircea_popescu: trust. it builds. all that's needed is a marketplace to build it.

asciilifeform: ~HOW~ do you intend to attribute the defection?

asciilifeform: wot relies on attribution of deeds, misdeeds.

asciilifeform: on some identity.

mircea_popescu: inasmuch as something is computable ; defection is attributable.

asciilifeform: here we are speaking of infected boxes.

mircea_popescu: whatever we may be speaking of.

asciilifeform: in ~all cases, ~multiply~ infected. syphiliticly.

mircea_popescu: so then what exactly was lost.

asciilifeform: can't attribute worth shit.

asciilifeform: well, potentially any and all nodes, lost. whenever.

mircea_popescu: soooo why should we care about this ?

asciilifeform: gotta have some minimal level of working node, neh?

asciilifeform: otherwise if it dun need to actually work, we can proclaim that we already have it!11111

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479854 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 01:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479805 << doesn't have to be botnet. for one thing, once this is ready i'll be running it on dedi boxes. for another thing, you make your own administrative policies. sell for whatever price you want whatever you want to sell.

asciilifeform: this is more practical.

asciilifeform: but less 'sexy', no atms, nukes...

mircea_popescu: it's plenty sexy. it resolves a number of notable problems, correctly - which is to say without support for usg.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479833 <<< don't deal with bozos. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 00:46 asciilifeform: you rent out yer chumpnet, and some bozo installs, e.g., 'cryptolocker', on all the nodes.

asciilifeform: you still want something that survives occasional bozo.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479839 << really, who the everloving shit cares about the needs, hopes and aspirations of 19yo script kiddies. fuck 'em. maybe if they have a sister and she's slutty i might be interested. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 01:09 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479838 << i was speaking of how most folks even get their proggy on the infected boxes in the first place

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform once evolutionary pressure is on, you might even get that something.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1479850 << something of this very nature. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 01:15 phf: but you can easily upgrade open access service to a custom service and charge for the extra work too. if you want your ads injected on all machines, you don't get to put own exe, needs to spec out the problem and give it to botnet owner to develop. also means that particularly losery owners will rapidly transfer their botnets to smarter crowd

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: discussed kiddiez because currently that is what lives there. like chukcha, in the north. ~nobody else there.

mircea_popescu: but you discuss it as if i'd give a half of a flying fuck.

mircea_popescu: this is the borg. cube lands and starts sucking the earth from under their feet. no shits given, at all, much like i don't look for anthill oppinions before during or after real estate development.

asciilifeform: strictly in light of 'client can hose the boxes' which applies to chukcha and mircea_popescu alike.

asciilifeform: builders ~do~ give fuck re termites.

mircea_popescu: client that hoses boxes i suppose doesn't get to rent more, what.

asciilifeform: and how do you know which one did it ?

mircea_popescu: you know who you rent to, do you ?

asciilifeform: say you rent to 1000 folks.

asciilifeform: next day, all nodes vanish.

mircea_popescu: "list of trusted peers for accepting orders and verifying Bitcoin payments ; administrative policies as appropriate." this has a meaning.

asciilifeform: now wat

mircea_popescu: you rent THE SAME item to 1k diff folks ?

phf: what happened to wot?

mircea_popescu: this is a wotless joke. you don't even know 1k people.

asciilifeform: 'no overlaps' is one solution.

mircea_popescu: phf we're playing this alf invented game where he picks an item and ignores all the rest.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fine, make it six people. how do you find the traitor (or simple incompetent who let his nodes get hijacked by third party)

asciilifeform: this is an approachable problem, and i wanted to learn what mircea_popescu 's approach is.

asciilifeform: 'lalalala not problem and stfu' is not an approach.

mircea_popescu: a) if your control on the box is strong, then your control on the box is strong. this means you fix the problem ; b) if your control on the box is weak, this means your control on the box is weak. this means you understand you can lose it.

asciilifeform: if it is ever a winblowz box, it is weak.

asciilifeform: if you infected it, others could have also.

mircea_popescu: wtf is so hard about this. so random twerp likes to have b and pretend it's a. good for him, random twerps like to lie in their accounting ever since they were invented. this is what "bitcoin investments" on the forum were all about throughout. so ?

asciilifeform: there is no 'a'. not in botnet.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't have a solution ; because this is a design not an implementation.

mircea_popescu: i know it's not an ~insurmountable~ problem, in the context and per the definitions relevant.

mircea_popescu: and that's just about all i care about.

asciilifeform: damn and here i was expecting a philosopher's stone!1111

mircea_popescu: yeah well. anyway, if your windows boxes are owned through the tenuous interface of whatever random chump-trojan, perhaps not allow a number of operations you feel you're vulnerable to.

asciilifeform: one very simple solution is to recruit new nodes faster than whoever can ruin them.

mircea_popescu: such as, sell them out for number crunching ; but not for pinging. or w/e.

asciilifeform: and this.

mircea_popescu: but in general, i fully expect this to work in the sense that random kid makes money to play everquest or w/e the fuck he plays through the avenue of renting the box.

asciilifeform: would go well with keccakcoin or other cpu miner's paradise, also.

mircea_popescu: his government pays an extra 40 bux a month ; his parents pay an extra 30 bux a month (not counting amortisation for hardware) and he gets 15 dollars a month out of maybe 25 to 50 dollars' worth of monthly utility delivered to the world.

mircea_popescu: yet another avenue to bleed the state and it's supporters (fucktarded parents with utility bills).

mircea_popescu: win-win.

asciilifeform: sorta like bitcoin circa 2010.

asciilifeform: when whole university labz were mining.

asciilifeform: i very deeply grasp ~what~ mircea_popescu wants to achieve with this thing, and it is a thing that direly needs doing. but not so trivial!

asciilifeform brb

BingoBoingo: mod6: fixed, just need the deedbot wiki url

BingoBoingo: found, fxd

mod6: cool!

mod6: im still working on a bit of a write up here...

mod6: do I have to add the HTML, links and all that? Or do you do the mark up?

mod6: How does that work?

BingoBoingo: You use the limited necessary set of html markup to accomplish the task <b> <i> <a> <blockquote> etc

mod6: you don't want me to use a bunch of JS to do a bunch of things to make your eyes bleed?

mod6: :D

mod6: do you want me to put in the class attributes?

mod6: like this: <div class="entry-content">

mod6: ?

BingoBoingo: no

BingoBoingo: no divs

BingoBoingo: no js

mod6: no ajax?

mod6: :P

mod6: OK, so then what.

mod6: encrypt and send to you for review?

BingoBoingo: encrypt sign and dpaste

BingoBoingo: in some order

mod6: clearsign+encrypt -> dpaste ?

mod6: my apologies, is this documented somewhere?

mod6: %r foobar 1

mod6: %r foobar 2

mod6: BingoBoingo hey, turns out that I won't have time to finish this tonight, and probably not until tomorrow night at very earliest.

BingoBoingo: k

mod6: should I just send you what I've got?

BingoBoingo: mod6: on trilema and the drinking record

BingoBoingo: Submit it when it is finished

BingoBoingo: No sooner

mod6: this kidna thing isn't forme.

BingoBoingo: Well you've got to try everything at least once in life

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, just gotta start peeling at a corner.

mircea_popescu: mod6 aww, you didn't choke on the submit part did you ? just gpg --encrypt --armor -r bingo and put the text into dpaste or wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com

BingoBoingo: ^

davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479673 <<< it does, however when i look at http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/UCI_tickets.html it seems to me #7 should be an antecedent of 3,4,5,6 but not the other way around ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:04 mircea_popescu: does this make sense to anyone outside of yours truly ? asciilifeform ? davout ? jurov ? phf ? trinque ?

davout: in other words i don't get how a worker could be made if the interface it should honor isn't defined beforehand

shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/QZA

gribble: The operation succeeded.

deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'James Bottomley <jejb@kernel.org>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Odin.com>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Parallels.com>; James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/23B2173C2FF1A9C43007D526720EA2B9EC1CB4AC21503429ACFBA1DA022517B3

deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'FAKE: key generation test; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0A8E8A26D309CBC4A73BD31E3D6C6AE49AB443FA58E2A9A823BAA868189AB6A5

deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Kampfkunstzentrum Reutlingen <info@kampfkunst-rt.de>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/876B66A5F4BB61D4B8BDCDB4F88B565D213C3A3D906FA1656E9E1F841AA2D0E9 ☟︎

deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'James Bottomley <jejb@kernel.org>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Odin.com>; James Bottomley <jejb@linux.vnet.ibm.com>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Parallels.com>; James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0C29F242AB444DCCCF5CB1DE389F7364C70C2BC6546581AD714F304746CDFD65

jurov: mod6: BingoBoingo: btcalpha is mike-c's thing

mircea_popescu: davout why ? ☟︎

mircea_popescu: of course the interface is how the worker's written not the other way around.

asciilifeform: <jejb@kernel.org>; << l0lllz. such is bitrot, we all knew, high-energy photons are attracted by the toe fungus of kernel devs; physics nobel at 11.

asciilifeform: in other lulz:

asciilifeform: 'Around 800 backbone fiber connections in the continental US (95+% of the backbone) have been tapped for data collection. Some of the telcos are aware of this, but are silently cooperating by not implementing point-to-point bulk traffic encryption. There is an extensive ghost network that connects these nodes, enabling traffic analysis and tracing in near-real time. As of recently, the passive taps are being converted to active filte

asciilifeform: ring nodes, enabling traffic disruption and injection. This means that all the talk about legal instruments, NSLs etc. is immaterial, and that Tor traffic is practically vulnerable.'

mircea_popescu: in other non-news, http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/rf/Image-lowres_Multimedia/IlSecoloXIXWEB/magazine/gossip/foto/2016/02/25/yvonne_splashnews-H160225193316.jpg

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480022 << apparently it's a... karateka. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 11:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Kampfkunstzentrum Reutlingen <info@kampfkunst-rt.de>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/876B66A5F4BB61D4B8BDCDB4F88B565D213C3A3D906FA1656E9E1F841AA2D0E9

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suddenly the value of point to point encrypted traffic at the box level becomes apparent ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparent eons ago

mircea_popescu: the empire is cheap, because the empire is poor.

asciilifeform: empire is made of cocksucking satrapies who wouldn't point-encrypt if martians gave them the gear for free.

mircea_popescu: well, the martians are.

asciilifeform: lel who's the leathery old chick

mircea_popescu: "big star" of the http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-25#1471914 tv school. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-05-25 20:46 mircea_popescu: the system's been around for decades ; i fucked a bunch in my day. recently they tried to close the thing down, arrested gals by the pail, but... from what i hear it didn't take.

asciilifeform: and incidentally, 'the passive taps are being converted to active filtering nodes' >>> <<< http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-17#1345736 etc. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2015-12-17 23:25 ascii_field: meanwhile, 'socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1' between two boxes which i control

mircea_popescu: in the same vein https://twitter.com/elena_morali note the "Per info e serate:Katia Rimmaudo +39 366 3542452 email: katia.rimmaudo@gmail.com" part.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-17#1467633 << see also. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-05-17 14:54 asciilifeform: the 'let's talk plaintext to randos' thing was great while it lasted.

mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 aww, you didn't choke on the submit part did you ? just gpg --encrypt --armor -r bingo and put the text into dpaste or wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com << ah, no. my writing isn't good. so lol, it's difficult for me.

mod6: the gpg part isn't a prob or whatever.

mircea_popescu: a

mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst. ☟︎☟︎

mod6: so im gonna dig into that a bit today, and see what needs to change if anything -- the structure shouldn't change too much, just a lot of labeling to make it more .... intuitive.

deedbot: [Trilema] Come see babies having sex - http://trilema.com/2016/come-see-babies-having-sex/

asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/06/visual-cpp-telemetry

asciilifeform: ^ a new, bolder microshit infects binaries at build time

Framedragger: alf is like a good decent-link-filter-and-repost bot #b-a -> #trilema

mircea_popescu: lol

mircea_popescu: hey, apparently it works.

asciilifeform: Framedragger: somebody gotta do the salvage work.

Framedragger: can't complain. *muh links get st0len*

Framedragger: it's just logging timestamps to windows event logger it seems. but still bold and shitty

mircea_popescu: turns out this "telemetry" is an utter misnomer, "etw" is just a stack trace a la windows ?

asciilifeform: anything in the binary you didn't put there == infection.

mircea_popescu: but the thing itself is... a stack trace. right ?

asciilifeform: like the 'unique id' crapolade microshit stuff into everything from vs exe to word docs.

Framedragger: mircea_popescu: etw seems to be a more generic framework than that, but can't be bothered to look too deeply. something like that anyway

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it calls an undocumented api thing that can do whatever the fuck microshit wants it to do on next update.

mircea_popescu: "users should add notelemetry.obj to their linker command line" lol k.

Framedragger: i don't think it's a complete stack trace. it's just timestamps?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform admitting for a moment windows can actually do things.

mircea_popescu: Framedragger carroll dude is blathering about how it works if "customer also supplies symbol info"

mircea_popescu: so yeah i guess half of one.

mircea_popescu: since when are timestamps the way to approach this btw ?

Framedragger: ah, right, i see why you'd think that. yeah so something of the kind, partially. ugh M$

asciilifeform: the way it works,

asciilifeform: is that it is a placeholder.

asciilifeform: say next year it will write not only timestamp but exe hash to log.

mircea_popescu: Framedragger right ? kinda how they do shit.

Framedragger: welll, NT kernel is a piece of engineering, whatever your feelings for M$

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no because itwillbeoff.jpg

asciilifeform: year after that, it uploads this log on daily basis (along with the keystroke logs we already know to exist starting in win8) to microshit. etc.

Framedragger: but yeah of course fuck them, can't argue with that

asciilifeform: and ahahaha itwillbeoff.jpg yeahlol.

mircea_popescu: you're like from the 90s or something!

mircea_popescu: there's been 25 years of "pubic opinion" and "internet community" PROGRESS since then!

asciilifeform: quite.

Framedragger: muh idol is bill gatez he the great hack3r

Framedragger: true, true

mircea_popescu: what rock have you been living under! teh jwz chorus won all the wars, what.

Framedragger: i do remember investigating how a few of them ring 0 windows rootkits work, thereby sort of delving into NT internals... it's a world unto itself. and it's full of objects!!! ah, childhood :D

Framedragger: iirc they have their own solution for pipes, which does work

mircea_popescu: in other lulz, http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2426472/details.htm

mircea_popescu: " http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2426472/details.htm

mircea_popescu: <mirceayyy> I'm Lilly. I am a very liberal SJW activist who is also into very kinky sex. I am on here to finally to what I know in my heart is right and fair and find an African American person whom wants to own a white slave. I am very obedient, can cook, clean, and do whatever else would be required of me."

Framedragger: but there's also this [one sec]

Framedragger: ^ wow, fetishisation of social something much

Framedragger: THIS https://mollyrocket.com/casey/stream_0029.html -- example of internal windows APIs... it's full of dragons. spoiler alert: vomit

asciilifeform: Framedragger: i have much of this rubbish in hardcopy here.

asciilifeform: for years.

Framedragger: (it's a long post but a nice read for one of them rainy days)

mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe black dudes looking for a derpy slavegirl in audience.

asciilifeform: ;;seen thestringpuller

gribble: thestringpuller was last seen in #trilema 10 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <thestringpuller> phf: turning the logs into genius.com?

Framedragger: asciilifeform: undocumented windows NT features or sth like that? there was a book...

asciilifeform: Framedragger: more than one

mod6: boy. i think that the logic might be correct in there -- but boy oh boy is "ANTECEDENT(s)" a bad label.

Framedragger: asciilifeform: i'm sure you've had good fun with them :)

mod6: should read "ANTECEDENT OF" if anything

mod6: does anyone agree with that assessment?

asciilifeform: Framedragger: not so much fun, but some profit.

Framedragger: fair enough

Framedragger remembers writing a shitty "back-connect" backdoor, coupling it with keylogger and a shitty "Hacker Defender" (sic) rootkit which hides the former two, and installing the bundle onto school PCs running the latest AV...

mod6: eh, maybe not.

mircea_popescu: mod6 i've been thinking about it since yest.

mod6: so... all of these obnoxious mental gymnastics are because i didn't want to use the term "blocker"

mod6: which it really should read

mod6: i.e.

mod6: %p UCI 2

tb0t: Project: UCI, ID: 2, Type: F, Subject: #trilema standard bot, Antecedents: , Notes: Should be capable of maintaining connection to channel ; interfacing with deedbot ; interfacing with Lordship/voiced users.

mircea_popescu: but not exactly see, because for instance in uti oops i mean uci thing : 4 doesn't block 7 if 3 is present say.

mod6: err

mod6: %p UCI 8

tb0t: Project: UCI, ID: 8, Type: F, Subject: Create UCI supervisor, Antecedents: 2,7, Notes: Interacts with UCI worker through interface ; interacts with peers through #trilema standard bot. Maintains list of prices for exposed abilities and Bitcoin address for payments ; list of trusted peers for accepting orders and verifying Bitcoin payments ; administrative policies as appropriate. Directs worker to execute accepted commands,

mod6: 2 & 7 are blockers to the completion of 8

mircea_popescu: yes, but look at 7

mircea_popescu: %p UCI 7

tb0t: Project: UCI, ID: 7, Type: I, Subject: Research and design UCI/worker interface., Antecedents: 3,4,5,6, Notes: UCI element should expose significant portions of native ability (at a very minimum networking ; math processing - CPU and VidCard ; storage - RAM and HDD) through an unified, lightweight interface. Feature load less important than simplicity.

mircea_popescu: arguably ANY ONE of 3, 4, 5, 6 is sufficient.

mircea_popescu: so calling them antecedents is actually correct : they're the earlier pieces.

mod6: ok! so you're looking at it the same way i was then -- and I thought this yesterday.

mod6: which is why I think your graph for UCI is correct.

mircea_popescu: my only thing was with the arrows, because currently they go against the flow of entropy.

mod6: just not sure if anyone else will see it that way. but i guess that doesn't quite matter either.

mircea_popescu: of course, they go with the logic flow, i suppose.

mod6: yeah, i see how that, especially in this case as opposed to V does warp the mind a bit.

mod6: because goal with this is not just to flow in to one direction, the goal is to recurse and solve from the leaves to root.

mod6: hmm. ok. i gotta run here for a bit. will think on it a bit more. thanks!

mircea_popescu: basically. i mean, that's the point right ? for people to pick up tickets and push through

mod6: yeah.

deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] It’s never too soon for an Uninterruptible Power Supply. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/06/10/its-never-too-soon-for-an-uninterruptible-power-supply/

asciilifeform: l0l he found a floor-standing one

asciilifeform: (my rack-mount thing also, in fact, stands on floor. in one of those '90s-era 'full tower pedestals' with the ratcheting clamp)

deedbot: [Qntra] WOTless Bitcoin n00b Scammed For Millions Of Fiat Tokens - http://qntra.net/2016/06/wotless-bitcoin-n00b-scammed-for-millions-of-fiat-tokens/

Framedragger: lol just had a meeting with boss: he wants to create a general valuation (as in IP valuation) framework for cryptocurrencies

Framedragger: just explained what public ledger is

Framedragger: gonna be interesting

trinque: what

trinque: Framedragger: aside from the market cap of the thing?

trinque: sounds like he read an article on blockchain teckmology

Framedragger: yes, aside from that

Framedragger: one of potential clients: scotcoin (as in chief operators - haven't looked yet if that even makes sense)

Framedragger: yeah it's probably bull; interesting to think in terms of IP though, whether there's a valuation methodology possible

Framedragger: i detest these glossy landing page designs. then again, maybe a stability point has been reached on the web, in the sense of content-less websites now employing a content-less form

Framedragger: > look for EBITDA

Framedragger: > find emoji javascript and jquery scroll animation

davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480051 <<< seems intuitive enough to me ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 14:21 mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst.

davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480025 <<< because the alternative is accepting arbitrary executables ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 13:45 mircea_popescu: davout why ?

trinque: asciilifeform: maybe you can find the thread for Framedragger regarding whether certain things (bitcoin, V) can have "valuation"

trinque: I've been searching, haven't found

asciilifeform: trinque: i have nfi what is meant

asciilifeform: $s pay for sunlight

a111: 3 results for "pay for sunlight", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pay%20for%20sunlight

asciilifeform: ^ this ?

trinque: yeah that one

asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom, https://bitbet.us/bet/1276/bitcoin-block-larger-than-1mb-to-be-mined

asciilifeform: ^ how the fuck does this even make sense as written ?

asciilifeform: let's start with 'If a bitcoin block strictly larger than 1000000 bytes (1 MB) gets mined on the main chain and subsequently receives more than 100 confirmations before December 31st 2016 at midnight GMT included, this bet resolves as "Yes".'

asciilifeform: how does a gavinblock - definitionally - sit on 'main chain' ?

asciilifeform: even in principle.

asciilifeform: can someone tell me ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: 'Should a block strictly larger than 1Mb get mined, betting will close immediately and all bets received after the event (where "received" means "bet transaction gets one confirmation on the bitcoin network") will be refunded, minus BitBet's fee.' << aaaaand there went mircea_popescu's 'anti-chiseling' thing. gone, just like that.

mircea_popescu: Framedragger ahahahaha oookay.

mircea_popescu: ftr : not only it's impossible to have an "ip valuation of bitcoin", but moreover the bitcoin valuation of ip returns 0.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480158 << this makes no sense. who starts building from the interface ? ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 15:55 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480025 <<< because the alternative is accepting arbitrary executables

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480172 << i'll pass, let whoever's getting paid for this handle it. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:09 asciilifeform: can someone tell me ?

Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah i mean.. yeah. it's almost as if: if bitcoin valuation of ip returns > 0, then bitcoin failed in terms of one of its design principles, or something

Framedragger: i dunno. gonna be interesting. will update if any good comes out of it (or bad..)

mircea_popescu: alternatively you could explain to your boss that a) he's not terribly informed, and if he's interested in this sort of thing b) really should make gpg id and show up here with his q's.

mircea_popescu: which

mircea_popescu: will also have the great benefit of c) clip his wings a shade.

ben_vulpes: "intellectual property"?

mircea_popescu: i presume.

ben_vulpes: yeah, that's not terrifically well thought-out.

ben_vulpes: "what is the value of owning source code for a token system that everyone else must have a copy of in order to play?"

ben_vulpes: p much just the value of the tokens neh

ben_vulpes: i doubt a binary-only 'bitcoinalike' would fly even were it wot-o-genic

mircea_popescu: reading the specs of that ds1500b-rm opti-ups thing... output voltage regulation +/- 2% ?! srsly, that noisy ?

ben_vulpes: heh american "engineering rounding error"

mircea_popescu: but if it cycles from -4 to +4 V it's noisier than grid power.

ben_vulpes: no idea

ben_vulpes: 'power supply' to me means i dial a voltage and it holds it to a hundredth of a volt.

ben_vulpes: (within operating envelope)

mircea_popescu: neway, i was thinking more of something a la http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=AKSA-APD%252dAT100-Generator-%28100kW%29

mircea_popescu: (electronics not pictured)

mircea_popescu: (doesn't have to come with the trailer, of course. you'll need a battery rack about the same size and a serious converter, ie, 100kW as opposed to 1050kW)

ben_vulpes: the ups is just supposed to be a bridge to the gennie.

ben_vulpes: either you can depend on the mains or you can't. and they're not getting better in NA.

mircea_popescu: yeah but you want the bridge to be wide enough. 1kw is not practically useful - inductive charge for an average ac unit for instance easily beats 5kw ☟︎

davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480176 <<< how could one build a basic calculator proggy without at least the rough interface specification of: "arithmetic expression goes in, scalar result comes out"? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:19 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480158 << this makes no sense. who starts building from the interface ?

ben_vulpes: either provision for your "megawatt standard lifestyle" or...scramble around unplugging things to extend the tiny window before your node goes offline completely.

ben_vulpes: what is really at issue here is one's connectivity to the bitcoin network. so yes, power. also, shortwave.

mircea_popescu: davout because he's not supposed to do emulation on the worker. if your kernel runs javascript, you expose reals. if your kernel runs balanced ternary, you exposed balanced ternary.

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes note that there's a lot of space between 100kw and 1mw.

davout: mircea_popescu: so basically no sandboxing?

mircea_popescu: davout not at worker level. you do that at administrative level.

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: well megawatt lifestyle in survival mode

davout: aha, so in other words tmsr is making its own docker

ben_vulpes: davout: triggered ☟︎

mircea_popescu: http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=Gillette-SPS%252d120-Home-Standby-Generator-%2812kW%29 << ftr, very reasonable 12kw units available. 4k what's that, half a weekend trip. ☟︎

davout: or own aws

mircea_popescu: davout own docker/aws/tor/silk road/nsa/cloudflare/dns/you name it.

davout: ben_vulpes: who/what triggered who/what?

ben_vulpes: > tmsr is making its own docker

ben_vulpes: triggered me

mircea_popescu: he's affecting that he can't hear docker, so we don't realise he sleeps with a stuffed bear with a penis that reads docker

davout: ben_vulpes: one could also say tmsr is reinventing microservices

davout: :D

ben_vulpes: so triggered

mircea_popescu: loller.

davout: as we say: "je comprends vite mais il faut parfois m'expliquer longtemps"

mircea_popescu: lol.

mircea_popescu: (re above link : a buried gpl tank and a gpl/lp/ng generator possibly much better solution than gasoline powered. unless you actually intend to build a gasoline tank, which is a permit nightmare usually.)

ben_vulpes: 88 ft^3/hr?

mircea_popescu: gillette also makes up to iirc 1mw units. but really, from both a redundancy and efficiency pov it's better to buy multiple smaller ones.

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes hm ?

ben_vulpes: estimating 500 gal tank capacity

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu would be quite surprised what the % accuracy on sine coming out of mechanical genset is.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just about 2%.

asciilifeform: if no load.

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well... they run ~50% efficiency, so you can get consumption from power rating pretty much. so you should expect about 1galon/hour drawn for every ~16kW of installed power. roughly speaking.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a petrol engine that does 50%!??

ben_vulpes: oh that's an interesting approach

asciilifeform: because that would be a historic moment

ben_vulpes: i was just looking at fuel consumption as an upper bound

asciilifeform: (20-30 is typical)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh it's not the 70s anymore!

asciilifeform: actually it is.

mircea_popescu: hater.

asciilifeform: lel

asciilifeform: anyway petrol generator is 'sexy', vrooom, vroom, but actual practice is that brown-outs, spikes, <30sec blackouts, are the real itch re computer user.

asciilifeform: and for that petrol is quite irrelevant, you want doubleconverting ups with ample spare capacity and fresh battery.

mircea_popescu: eh, you want the whole thing. converter ; battery and generator.

mircea_popescu: no point in solving half-problems, especially when the shit's not even expensive.

asciilifeform: thing is, even cheap generator, that has to be connected with extension cord and rolls on wheels out of garage, suffices if you have good doubleconverting ups

asciilifeform: it makes the quality of the ~input~ ac irrelevant.

asciilifeform: and gives you time to revv up the motor.

asciilifeform: so long as we're speaking of a house, rather than datacentre or factory

mircea_popescu: but to resolve your doubts asciilifeform : http://bestratedgenerators.com/most-fuel-efficient-portable-generator/ .7kW * 14 hrs = just about 10kw to the gallon. which is ok considering the tiny size.

mircea_popescu: sane sized ones get better mileage.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you recall at no point "just a gas generator" was contemplated. that + battery bank + electronics = win.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the pictured gensets are what most folks have where i live.

mircea_popescu: aha.

asciilifeform: motorcycle engine.

mircea_popescu: anyway, off top of head 400 kw generator eats ~28.5 gal/hr full load and ~15 half load ; 250 kw eats 18 and about 10. it degrades from there.

asciilifeform: popular generator for folks with money, in usa, is stationary thing that runs of city gas when available and switches to diesel if not.

mircea_popescu: these, it should be pointed out, are not THAT expensive. which is the important item here.

mircea_popescu: if you're about to drop 1mn on a piece of property, the notion that you wouldn't drop a few tens of k's on actually having power for it is outright idiotic.

asciilifeform: the installation is about half of the cost.

asciilifeform: need Official electricians to sign off, etc.

asciilifeform: and most large commercial buildings have these, although, strangely, not connected to the tenants' wiring ! - only lights and lifts.

asciilifeform: mandated by some obscure law.

asciilifeform: (where i live, anyway)

mircea_popescu: yawell.

asciilifeform: the most comical situation was of course in usgland. i was working at an army base, and there were the most titanically impressive generators i've ever seen, each easily the size of a train car, diesel cisterns two stories high, etc. BUT we still lost power in the lab. because somehow it wasn't connected to it.

asciilifeform: and ~nothing else was.

mircea_popescu: lmao.

mircea_popescu: by the time you're talking traincar sized gensets, you're prolly better off building a small nuclear plant anyway.

mircea_popescu: strangely enough, small nuclear plants are actually a lot safer than the large ones also.

asciilifeform: many years ago, i was working in uni. of md., in the same building as one of the 'root dns' boxes. we had no fewer than 4 stationary diesels, of various makes. they worked.

asciilifeform: and tested weekly.

asciilifeform: loud.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'pebble reactor'

asciilifeform: iirc it is now all the rage in jp.

asciilifeform: can get office bldg. sized unit.

mircea_popescu: myeah.

asciilifeform: keep in the cellar.

asciilifeform: i have nfi if these were actually sold or only eternally threatened to market.

mircea_popescu: usually the traincar-boxed gensets are 1500-2000-2500 kw sorta deals.

shinohai: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/10/gawker-media-files-for-ch-11-bankruptcy-protection.html <<< bwhahaha Gawker filers for Bankruptcy ☟︎

mircea_popescu: lol now that defo should be on qntra.

mircea_popescu: preferably with a picture of a young man pissing on a grave.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform zee germanz had a small unit built at some point. then they tore it down because usg lobby for fucking them over ; ended up paying ~half a dollar per kW produced in "dismantling" costs.

ben_vulpes: ahaha so thiel pulled it off?

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this is an ancient story.

mircea_popescu: $google julich arbeitsgemeinschaft versuchsreaktor

ben_vulpes: the bankrupting part is new to me

deedbot: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR_(J%C3%BClich) << AVR (Jülich) – Wikipedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR_reactor << AVR reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | http://www.ewn-gmbh.de/index.php?id=3 << bei der AVR GmbH!

mircea_popescu: oh oh oh.

mircea_popescu: my bad :p

ben_vulpes: yes the vendetta is old

ben_vulpes: but the kill -- fresh

mircea_popescu: word.

asciilifeform: not like the gawktrons will vanish.

asciilifeform: they will be bought and operated.

asciilifeform: a la reddit.

ben_vulpes: by even dumber and poorer 'j-skool' grads

ben_vulpes: and others with aspirations of relevance and no historical view

mircea_popescu: well, yeah, but very progressive and looking for a black man to cook for.

ben_vulpes: one in a fucking million, maybe.

shinohai: paging BingoBoingo ... he has to write this one. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: good enough :D

ben_vulpes: the rest have never had the autonomy over any scope to know how much better life is under a good master.

ben_vulpes: show up and start in with the unfounded ideas.

ben_vulpes: then "omg tensions were so high yesterday i don't want to come in" ☟︎

mircea_popescu: is this the voice of bitter experience ?

ben_vulpes: "you better tell me you have the shits, because that excuse is completely unacceptable."

mircea_popescu: ;;ud the shits

gribble: Error: We broke The Google!

mircea_popescu: hm

mircea_popescu: allow me to recommend perfectly definitive solution for the shits :

mircea_popescu: $google eridiarom

ben_vulpes: generic 'i dun wanna work' excuse.

deedbot: https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=14234 << EFFICACY OF PHYTOTHERAPEUTICAL PRODUCTS (ERIDIAROM ... | http://enzimatic.ro/Eridiarom%20Tratament%20Eficient%20%C3%8En%20prevenirea%20%C8%99i%20Tratarea%20diareelor%20neonatale%20(a%20nou-n%C4%83scu%C8%9Bilor)%20nespecifice%20%C8%99i%20a%20diareelor%20specifice << Eridiarom Tratament Eficient În prevenirea și Tratarea diareelor | http://www.romedic.ro/eridiarom-50-cps-tract-diges

mircea_popescu: all natural. the only diarrhea that survives it is death.

ben_vulpes: bitter?

mircea_popescu: nope. tastes like blueberries, vaguely. and non-constipating either.

ben_vulpes: i hope i don't taste like blueberries, and further how would you know?!

mircea_popescu: i thought you were asking IF THE CURE IS BITTER!

ben_vulpes: :D

mircea_popescu: this is like trolling.

ben_vulpes: not my fault you can't remember what you said two minutes ago

mircea_popescu: i can ; but the rule is that question is fit to the closest non-contradicting context.

mircea_popescu: it is your job to review the timeflow and add sufficient context so that your question is not fitted to later items under discussion than what you mean!

ben_vulpes: yeah cuz saliency dun bear or something

mircea_popescu: it's not "best fit", it's "first non-contradicted".

ben_vulpes: why would i give a shit about the bitterness of a cure for a made up ailment i ask you

mircea_popescu: but see, the parser should never consider this question. because if it does, it narrows unduly the space of possible expression.

mircea_popescu: and we'll end up reddit-communicating, ie, each his own.

ben_vulpes: have a pineapple

ben_vulpes: and a us college grad

ben_vulpes: i can't be arsed to shuck either of their inedible exteriors.

mircea_popescu: in other google lulz : https://archive.is/sb3iJ wherein 4th result is "rockettcafe.com/iyob4x/mai-tipe-ros.html". now rockettcafe.com is some derpy texas eatery (which got scammed by the webtard community of a decade ago into "needing" a website), but the precise url google recommends actually does X-Powered-By: PHP/5.3.29 302 Location: coolin.in/for/77?d=rockettcafe.com

mircea_popescu: supposedly all this pile of effort is getting paid through derps putting in their mobile # and then getting charged by telco ; of which gross the author makes ~40%. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: somehow i doubt it comes to anything, but whadda i know.

mircea_popescu: brunsfieldrealestate.com/iyob4x/mai-tipe-ros.html << amusingly, same dir too.

mircea_popescu: leconfortinnhotels.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/iyob4x/xxx-photo-of-small-girl-hd.html << and now we know what's being sold, also. child porn! google reports no less than 106k hits!

mircea_popescu: (server, of course, from microsoft)

mircea_popescu: moar lulz http://vizhanyo.com/iyob4x/object.php.suspected

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480338 << pestilential in ru ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:31 mircea_popescu: supposedly all this pile of effort is getting paid through derps putting in their mobile # and then getting charged by telco ; of which gross the author makes ~40%.

mircea_popescu: in argentina, telcos just steal the prepaid credit. no need for all this.

asciilifeform: prepaid ?

mircea_popescu: well yeah.

asciilifeform: as in 'call card' ?

asciilifeform: wouldn't that put a small upper bound on the loot ?

mircea_popescu: as in "i'm not making contracts with you get lost"

mircea_popescu: it does yeah.

mircea_popescu: argentines are like this. very very dumb.

asciilifeform: prepaid mobiles exist in usa, extortionate cost. ☟︎

asciilifeform: (per-minute)

mircea_popescu: yeah. ustards are like ~that~. just as dumb.

asciilifeform: at one point they were 'anonymous' but then merchants were usgized into collecting names, addressed; today they are largely used by lumpens who can't get normal phone (as it requires credit history)

asciilifeform: *addresses

mircea_popescu: here they work as indended, ie anonymously.

asciilifeform: no chinese 'want sim card - show passport' yet ?

mircea_popescu: nope.

asciilifeform: neat.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480309 << ben_vulpes this is a quote ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:10 ben_vulpes: then "omg tensions were so high yesterday i don't want to come in"

asciilifeform: someone said this ?

mod6: <+davout> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480051 <<< seems intuitive enough to me << ah ok thanks davout ☝︎

shinohai: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/appeals-court-rules-cops-can-legally-search-a-seized-credit-card-with-no-warrant/ <<< guess Ill have to print a retraction in Qntra

asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/8ad7455c-8a8f-4269-a1df-0dbb37b7c224 << moar lulz

asciilifeform: 'When any U.S. telecommunications company wishes to install a physical fiber optic connection, and that connection cross into or out of the national borders of the United States, the company which terminates the fiber, in what is called a "landing" is required under federal law to obtain an "International Landing" license, and this is done via the Federal Communications Commission, and there is ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS, an unclassified

asciilifeform: version of the license and then a classified addendum to the agreement. The company who seek the license will be assigned a classified compartments code name that will be "Top Secret/ESI" with the ESI standing for "Extremely Sensitive Information" as disclosure could directly lead to economic devastation to the company, and their involvement must be kept secret.'

shinohai: I wonder if that applies equally to qr codes

asciilifeform: 'At Tuckerton, Lynn, and other sites, since just after 9/11/2001 if you place a call from Washington, DC to Boston, the call does not actually get sent over underground cables inside the United States, but rather the call gets injected into an international landing site, and routed to Great Britain, and then sent back to the same U.S. Landing location, essentially being a loopback in the UK. Because the loopback caused the signal to

asciilifeform: be transmitted over a U.S. border, then legally the NSA/CIA/SCS will claim that it then falls into an international transmission and that they are justified in performing an intercept, even though it is a domestic call, but because it was shot out of the United States over an international loopback. Another wrinkle is because this loopback to the UK, the British government will also intercept it at the loopback point, so that the cal ☟︎

asciilifeform: l gets shared by two independent espionage entities.'

asciilifeform: ^ old nyooz to connoisseurs, but lulzy.

mircea_popescu: aha.

asciilifeform: moar lulzily, where is the supposed 'economic devastation'.

asciilifeform: now that even pigeons in the park know that 100% of telcos participate.

mircea_popescu: the obvious pill being, of course, point to point encryption via uci on top of end to end encryption via gossipd.

asciilifeform: the usg circus tricks weren't cheap, and were very clearly carried out with the assumption that no one would ever discover working crypto.

asciilifeform: can't see any other model for this.

mircea_popescu: you keep re-injecting this "usg has a head" thing.

mircea_popescu: it's dogvomit, not a vole. it has no head. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: grew whicever way the dead tree was.

asciilifeform: difficult to escape this conclusion.

asciilifeform: incidentally...

asciilifeform: ;;calc 10**12 / ((9600 / 8) * 60 * 60 * 24) ☟︎

gribble: 9645.0617284

asciilifeform: CONTIGUOUS DAYS at 9600 baud, on 1TB disk of otp.

asciilifeform: that's 26 motherfucking years.

asciilifeform: of shell time.

asciilifeform: 1TB can fit under the skin of little finger, no need to even open arse.

asciilifeform: i can't be the only one who ever did this bit of arithmetic.

asciilifeform: ;;calc 10**12 / ((115200 / 8) * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365)

gribble: 2.20206888776

asciilifeform: years of 115.2kBaud, plenty adequate to do ~whatever.

asciilifeform: (play Doom over ipx!1111111)

asciilifeform: video chat. etc.

asciilifeform: 9600 is MOAR than what your telco gives you for voice chan.

shinohai is now nostalgic for warez

asciilifeform: and can anyone suggest good reason why a p2p link between two permanent stations ought to be anything other than otp ?

trinque: asciilifeform: not really. if you wanted to move more data, could exchange pubkeys over the otp link.

trinque imagines pad-courier as a nice gig for the wandering type

asciilifeform: trinque: do you understand the point of otp ?

asciilifeform: the point is to NOT USE ANYTHING ELSE

asciilifeform: any ~even potentially breakable~ algo.

asciilifeform: at all.

asciilifeform: y'know, otp, where a bit of ciphertext conveys 0 BITS OF INFO re corresponding (or any other) bit of plaintext.

trinque: yeah I do understand

trinque: and I also move data bigger than 1tb in a given week

asciilifeform: move with courier.

asciilifeform: srsly 'taanstaafl.' (tm) (r) (heinlein)

trinque: what does me moving a cramer shoup key over an otp link reveal about the otp link

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-06#1398532 << see mega-thread. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-02-06 20:47 mircea_popescu: your bias-less rng shits out n/2 ones. they go against a message containing 3/4n ones. they will flip n/2 items in the message, 3/4 of which being 1s and 1/4 being 0s. you thus end up with 3/8 old ones + 1/8 ex-zeroes for a grand total of exactly 1/2 whoa.

trinque: obviously using the cramer shoup link is higher risk than the otp one

asciilifeform: trinque: the answer is: ~something~

asciilifeform: trivially provable.

trinque: and perhaps I'm alright with that for certain things, not okay with that on others

asciilifeform: and it isn't 'reveals re otp link'

asciilifeform: it is that using ANY system other than otp moves some nonzero qty of info re plaintext with the ciphertext.

asciilifeform: elementary proof (shannon)

asciilifeform: essentially the Big Dirty Secret re crypto is that NO ONE HAS YET proven that non-otp cryptography ~actually exists~

asciilifeform: in the sense of a permanent thing that does what it says on the box

asciilifeform: quite arguably the entire 20th century circus re symmetric crypto (and possible every other kind) has been an elaborate - possibly engineered - distraction from this fact.

asciilifeform: consider the lengths that were gone to, in order to keep folks using rotors after vernam (otp) was a thing.

trinque: it could be. if so it would seem to rule out bitcoin entirely in present form

trinque: deedbot.org uptime 77 days, RX bytes:129700966372 (120.7 GiB) TX bytes:609770449367 (567.8 GiB)

asciilifeform: trinque: bitcoin is arguable best - to date - cryptological canary.

asciilifeform: *arguably

asciilifeform: but canaries do not come with guarantees of timely death.

asciilifeform: and yes, bitcoin (in the most general case) relies on there being such a thing as strong asymmetric crypto.

asciilifeform: wot, incidentally, and contrary to popular belief - doesn't!! could, in principle, use lamport signatures.

asciilifeform: which merely require strong hash, to exist.

asciilifeform: (but are unwieldy.)

asciilifeform: if not for this, you're stuck with in-person wotting and broken glass rods or other physical mechanisms of unforgeability.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problems with otp aren't exactly bandwidth like that.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the use case contemplated, there ARE no problems.

asciilifeform: can just as easily keep 1TB on a single chip die secret as 4096 bits.

asciilifeform: mechanism weighs the same, has same physical shape.

asciilifeform: costs slightly more.

asciilifeform: thread was re point to point link between people who know one another.

mircea_popescu: even so. how do you communicate the pads ?

asciilifeform: by letting the two units fuck.

mircea_popescu: this definition of "know one another" is very deep. there isn't 1tb of "knowledge" in your average marital relationship.

asciilifeform: 1 fuck per 26 years.

asciilifeform: (9600 baud.)

mircea_popescu: now, i can mentally construct a case for using this system ; with physically plugged units etc. you refer to it but don't actually discuss it.

asciilifeform: ;;calc 10**12 / ((1024*1024*100) * 60 * 60)

gribble: 2.64909532335

mircea_popescu: should be obvious that, eg, this scheme doesn't work for a phone. what, i keep plugging extensions function of who's calling ?

asciilifeform: fill time, in hours, using 100MB/s rng.

asciilifeform: it works for POINT TO POINT phone. modem. whichever.

asciilifeform: as in, hose with two ends.

mircea_popescu: it'll be pretty expensive.

asciilifeform: why?

asciilifeform: a 1tb magnetic disk costs ~fiddybux.

mircea_popescu: because network points that require servicing every 1tb of data throughput are about 10^8 less reliable than currently deployued items.

mircea_popescu: which need servicing every 100 yottabytes or such.

asciilifeform: didn't we just do a thread where mircea_popescu said 'piss on current-day 'reliable' ' ?

asciilifeform: tapped == unreliable by definition.

mircea_popescu: i was discussing capital goods reliability ; as an economic consideration.

asciilifeform: and incidentally service doesn't have to mean interruption.

asciilifeform: can fall over to new pad without old one being wholly exhausted.

asciilifeform: like changing ups batteries.

mircea_popescu: wasn't discussing ops reliability. but economic. "needs servicing" = costs btc.

asciilifeform: yes, costs.

mircea_popescu: hence "it will be expensive".

asciilifeform: and it buys you the final solution to crypto headache.

mircea_popescu: provided the rng is that good, which probably it is not etc.

asciilifeform: whose 'probably.'

asciilifeform: if thing is supplied by usg, whole thing 'probably' leaks 100% of bits to washington.

asciilifeform: forget even rng.

asciilifeform: if not supplied by rng - trivially works.

asciilifeform: *by ug

mircea_popescu: in general, a rng capable of delivering good quality data by the tb is not free.

asciilifeform: to get the 2 hour fill, you will need at least 32 of mine.

mircea_popescu: yeah, well...

asciilifeform: (it is possible to use amp with higher slew rate and get moar bitz. but i deliberately used conservative design, with common parts)

mircea_popescu: ironically, this level of assurance doesn't belong in the p2p part of the scheme, but exactly at the other end.

asciilifeform: which?

mircea_popescu: (uci) -> (gossipd) -> (user).

mircea_popescu: at the USER end. if you want to otp the stuff you put through cs/rsa, by all means.

Framedragger: ben_vulpes: IP is not just source code but shit like brand etc, and goodwill behind it. i'm not defending the foundation of IP, just sayin

asciilifeform: it MUST go 'inside' the 'user' end, because otherwise enemy can cause you to waste pad.

asciilifeform: by sending rubbish.

mircea_popescu: Framedragger "goodwill" is not properly part of ip, no

asciilifeform: (with pubkey barrier, he cannot)

Framedragger: mircea_popescu: "intangible assets"

mircea_popescu: not all intangibles are ip.

Framedragger: god i should stop regurgitating my firm's propaganda

Framedragger: true, of course

Framedragger: we consider them to be ip, then try to put onto balance sheet, then inflate another co's value

trinque: the good old "feelings" line item

mircea_popescu: there's this pile of special pleading/peculiar interest "views" on reality. such as the marketeer derping about how "everyone else - contributes to costs ; marketing dept contributes to revenue".

mircea_popescu: the "all intangibles are ip" is a similar clump of crap, sprouted by dickless failed lawyers who want to live the rest of their life in the "ip dept",

Framedragger: ip dept rings a bell

mircea_popescu: and get yachts quite as long as the "sec compliance" dickless failed lawyers or w/e/

asciilifeform: what's 'dickless' or 'failed' about a 40ft yacht full of benjies ?

mircea_popescu: also of some (psychiatric) interest, the nonsensical attempt to equate "meaning" altogether, as the concept, with the shoddy, untenable implementation by usg & friends. "ip" is not the superset of noesis ffs.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the failure and dicklessness attach to the derp not to the item.

asciilifeform: my q is, if 'dickless failure' gets yacht, what does dickful success get ? aircraft carrier ?

mircea_popescu: this q is broken.

Framedragger: what's funny is the kind of schemes that these views make possible. e.g. you go to bank and bank says your co is worth shit. then you discover that you have "goodwill" etc. so you create another co. and license the use of the main co's TM etc. use to that other co. then you go to bank and show these invoices etc.; voila, inflated value

mircea_popescu: Framedragger kinda how "civilised world" works, financially.

asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel

deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.

Framedragger: yeah.

mircea_popescu: hence "apple could buy russia - if only it wanted to!" "oh yeah, what about russia ?" "oh, putin just doesn't understand how the world works" "oh yeah ? and who;s going to show him ? you ?" "democracy! humanrights!" "fuck your mother."

mircea_popescu: but whatever, let kink high have its jollies.

Framedragger: the whole fucking UK is built on this back-and-forth financial-wannabe masturbation. in that sense, "fuck your mother" (which includes such material manifestations as russian winter as you try to move troops in it) sounds much more sober, lively and worthwhile, heh. /incoherent-ranting

trinque: asciilifeform │ what's 'dickless' or 'failed' about a 40ft yacht full of benjies ? << the world belonging to someone else

mircea_popescu: (ftr, 40ft yachts ~1-200k. less than "a house")

mircea_popescu: 70ft items are about 1.2-1.3mn, and closer to comfortable.

mircea_popescu: fuckbed + coupla off duty girl beds + basic comforts like that. cooking remains a problem, obviously. but hey, at least you got the generator with you. ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480516 << off duty?! who will work the sails ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 19:18 mircea_popescu: fuckbed + coupla off duty girl beds + basic comforts like that. cooking remains a problem, obviously. but hey, at least you got the generator with you.

asciilifeform: 70ft is respectable schooner, no?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "yacht". they all have engines.

asciilifeform: lame!

mircea_popescu: heh.

mircea_popescu: ftr, ocean faring with sails is a) not particularly practical in groups under ~100, nor with per-capita footage over ~1 meter or so ; nor can these really be women.

asciilifeform: tell it to orlov.

asciilifeform: or the vikings.

mircea_popescu: orlov, iirc, is mostly notable for begging for engine replacement ?

mircea_popescu: or wait, im confusing him with rms again aren't i.

mircea_popescu: darn.

asciilifeform: ;;later tell ben_vulpes did 'ruby on rails' for mac os ever ACTUALLY WORK?? https://github.com/sparklemotion/nokogiri/issues/1206 << seems like not ?

gribble: The operation succeeded.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orlov. he cheats with diesel motor when in port.

mircea_popescu: also, vikings satisfied the rules. 100+ men in a 50 meter boat.

asciilifeform: as most sail people appear to.

mircea_popescu: or that's what they TELL YOU

mircea_popescu: "oh, just you know... in port. and... at night. or when tired. or you know, when have to actually get somewhere."

asciilifeform: lel

asciilifeform: quite possible

mircea_popescu: myeah. i'm sure floating randomly is not sailing.

asciilifeform did not sail with him, cannot testify how much he cheats

asciilifeform: my understanding is that various things have been roboticized on current boats - steering, possibly even sail trim/raise/lower.

mircea_popescu: well it was already all winched in the 70s/80s

asciilifeform: now driven by servos, driven by gps/glonas/etc

asciilifeform: so possibly needs 98 fewer vikings..

mircea_popescu: if you're gonna do that might as well engine neh ? but anyway!

mircea_popescu: " mpapis commented Dec 22, 2014 @behrangsa its limitation of remembering compilation flags by ruby, when the binary rubies are compiled by me or on travis they require to be given paths to statically linked libraries (*.a objects) - this path is then remembered by ruby and added to every gem compilation, as you can see this is not an error as only warning is issued, if you feel this requires fixing open a bug for MRI asking

mircea_popescu: ..."

mircea_popescu: these dudes are serious aren't they.

asciilifeform: ^ summary: mega-famous www library, 'ruby on rails', supposedly luser-friendly, etc. DOES NOT ACTUALLY BUILD on recent mac os

asciilifeform: by all appearances.

mircea_popescu: "only warning is issued".

mircea_popescu: "behrangsa commented Dec 22, 2014 @mpapis, I didn't know that. If this is something common to gems with native extensions, etc. and how MRI works and it is harmless, then I have no complaints. "

asciilifeform: bold lie.

mircea_popescu: "mpapis commented Dec 22, 2014 it is standard and harmless thing, but ruby could allow filtering out this flags, this could be done as part of the filtration process that already happens in preprocessing in miniruby - but I do not think it would be considered as a ticket without pull request / patch to address this problem."

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has read more of the crapola than anyone ought to be expected to for free.

asciilifeform: i am wearing 3 gas masks.

mircea_popescu: it's pretty entertaining.

asciilifeform: in a sense.

mircea_popescu: they've taken cubical drone wisdom to what's left of open source.

mircea_popescu: which historically has existed specifically so as not to meet them.

asciilifeform: i can't even wholly figure out what happened there.

asciilifeform: despite trying all day.

mircea_popescu: but anyway, very illustrative. derp's problem is not WHAT THE THING IS.

mircea_popescu: his concern is circumscribed much more narrowly - what's the paperwork say ? "not an error!"

mircea_popescu: bugmen thinking @ work.

asciilifeform: eh all vermin say, 'that shit i just shat, it isn't shit, see, my arse emits only flowers and sunshine'

asciilifeform: '@zenspider Mocking me? Honestly?!? And the "it works on my machine" response? I really appreciate the work people put into sharing their software with others, but you need to learn to treat people with respect who are trying to help improve your product. I need this for a new system I have inheirited. The first thing I am going to do is get rid of the dependency on your project.'

mircea_popescu: heh

asciilifeform: 'I'm going to close and lock this conversation, because I don't see any meaningful progress on reproducing the issue in the last month or so, and because of the unproductive conversations and noise.

asciilifeform: '

asciilifeform: oct. 28, 2015.

asciilifeform: thing STILL croaks.

mircea_popescu: awww

mircea_popescu: wtf are you dfoing with ruby anyway.

asciilifeform: it was the other end of a cpp thing i was doing for money. tried to reconstruct its natural habitat, to test...

mircea_popescu: lack of empathy srsly wtf is wrong with these people.

mircea_popescu: it's like they've ~all imported a bunch of known-broken, proven-dysfunctional mental tools and by god will fucking use those! EMPATHY!

asciilifeform: the more interesting question: this, recall, is mega-popular luser-friendly thing. running on #1 most beloved wwwtronicist's platform.

asciilifeform: IT HASN'T WORKED SINCE ... at least oct '15 ?

mircea_popescu: ~nobody uses it.

asciilifeform: what do all of the ben_vulpeses do ? pass a vm around?

asciilifeform: they all set it up back when it built ? which ?

asciilifeform: linked report is circa dec. 2014 !

davout: lulzy

davout: works on davout's machine!

trinque: asciilifeform: docker; that's exactly what they do

asciilifeform: davout: spiffy. perhaps you can rent it out to folks.

asciilifeform: trinque: do what ?

trinque: pass VM around

asciilifeform: why not mail whole machine around.

asciilifeform: same degree of idiocy.

ben_vulpes: > reconstruct its natural habitat

ben_vulpes: ho ho ho ho ho

mircea_popescu: more empathy alf!

asciilifeform: i predict that before long, folks will do this.

asciilifeform: just main motherfucking server.

asciilifeform: *mail

asciilifeform: in a crate.

asciilifeform: back and forth.

mircea_popescu: you mean, back like in the 60s ?

asciilifeform: aha.

mircea_popescu: progress! community!

asciilifeform: except they were more advanced, mailed only tape

mircea_popescu: nah, you wanted to run x on y, gotta mail a y.

asciilifeform: well, 'y' was likely to take a full rail car

asciilifeform: so best not be poor.

ben_vulpes: nokogiri

ben_vulpes: always so much fun

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: shipping vms around is already sop with these shitheads

davout: ben_vulpes: osx doesn't really help either...

ben_vulpes: docker adoption is largely driven by people who can't get it to work on their workstations

mircea_popescu: ^ ahaha .

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: specifically that turd?!

ben_vulpes: the whole railsvironment

ben_vulpes: and burgeoningly the go environment as well

ben_vulpes: because wtf managing source and packages is hard or what was it

asciilifeform: lulzy

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have you tried to run down "best practices" wrt installing ruby and rails on a macintosh?

mircea_popescu: in other dubious news, this country is fucking incomprehensible. so i made mayo out of the greatest fucking eggs. clearly corn fed, happy chickens. same shop, tomatoes... the mealiest most retardedly disgusting ship-grown tomatoes. wtf! it's like they only shave half their face.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it dies as described in the link.

ben_vulpes: is it not gloriously retarded.

ben_vulpes: what, all of the ruby install?

ben_vulpes: i'm talking chruby rbenv and friends

ben_vulpes: and the shims shitshow

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'macports' installs ruby per se. it is the rails thing that melts down.

davout: ben_vulpes: i never understood the appeal of these turds...

ben_vulpes: davout plays rails without rbenv?

davout: ben_vulpes: been working with rails since '07, never, ever used that shit

ben_vulpes: probably because you figured out how it worked before those became the hot new 'right' way to do things

ben_vulpes: "oh just" hose your box in a million interesting ways

davout: either install ruby package or build ruby from source, at least that's how *i* do it

ben_vulpes: and how do you shuffle between ruby projects with wildly different dependencies?

davout: i usually beat those into submission so they work with the ruby i use

davout: i probably have much less experience than you juggling between X turds from Y different clients

davout: though

ben_vulpes: it's pretty classic response from experienced ruby folks

ben_vulpes: "oh well i usually just work on one thing for 9-18 months at a stretch, jump to a new job and then wipe the entire install after a week of tearing my hair out"

ben_vulpes: meanwhile i need to boot rails app X running ruby version Y with subtly different deps from rails app Z running ruby version Q in about five minutes.

asciilifeform: the more interesting question: how many of these folks understand that their 'job' would not EVEN EXIST if it weren't for this lunacy.

davout: more like "oh, ruby 1.9 doesn't support this new 2.0 syntax, let's just sed it into sanity" ☟︎

ben_vulpes: "sanity" roflffufozlzozfl

davout: ben_vulpes: i guess that sucks...

ben_vulpes: yeah it's fucking miserable.

ben_vulpes: the publically available toolchain is ~worthless.

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "as it always is, pleb!"

ben_vulpes: and you raise the issue with railsfolk of standing and the response is almost always "yow. that sucks. have you tried docker?"

davout: kek

ben_vulpes: no, but do you know what i'm going to do? buy a fucking laptop engrave your company's name on it charge you for it install your shit on it and keep it.

asciilifeform: here's to hoping that docker undergoes the same death as described earlier.

asciilifeform: (why should ~it~ continue to build!)

ben_vulpes: oh it routinely fails to be useful to old installs

ben_vulpes: i went to upgrade a docker installation and they pulled this gorgeous trick where they actually deny access to repos based on docker client version ☟︎

ben_vulpes: bitch are you /serious/

ben_vulpes: i wanted that old ubuntu for a motherfucking reason

davout: "not best practice!!1"

ben_vulpes: *tearing noises as /me excises more sillicon valley horseshit from client stacks, fixes all problems that had previously been papered over with docker, and deploys to fresh ubuntu 14.04*

ben_vulpes: i actually had to walk django-compressor backwards through its released versions, something like 3 whole major releases just to get it to work with the django 1.3.5 that this site needed

davout: in other news romania's soccer just got surprise butseks'd

davout: *soccer team

ben_vulpes: each single breaking change was the result of an entirely wankatronic 'upgrade' to the compressor lib to take more dependencies on more stupid django internals

davout: i found a lot of peace and pleasure in learning, and coding a bit, in straight c

davout: so. damn. straightforward.

asciilifeform: aha, c existed before there 'had to be' employment for 50 million idiots.

asciilifeform: it is a mistake to suppose that the cancers, e.g., rails soup, happen by accident.

ben_vulpes: dude there is no head to the hydra

asciilifeform: no need for a head.

asciilifeform: entirely p2p thing.

asciilifeform: let's work example,

asciilifeform: mr schmuck, the django or whatever dev, introduces breakage, additional dependencies.

asciilifeform: what is the reaction downstream ?

asciilifeform: grumbling, installing 'updates' etc.

asciilifeform: upstream? 'hoorah! our shit is Moar Relevant nao'

ben_vulpes: how can the game dynamics produce any other result?

asciilifeform: different reward matrix --> different result.

asciilifeform: in this case, 'work creation' is rewarded.

asciilifeform: as per http://www.loper-os.org/?p=388 .

davout: i definitely agree that this applies to rails the phramework, but i am and will openly remain a rubyrast

davout: the language

davout reading

asciilifeform: my realization is that this kind of thing is EXACTLY same as fiatolade ☟︎

asciilifeform: 'jobs' come 'out of nowhere'

davout: asciilifeform: i don't see much of a link between "dependency mess" and "lack of automation"

davout: ah, missed the "in this case, 'work creation' is rewarded." line

davout: now i see

asciilifeform: davout: see thread. if the mess did not exist, ben_vulpes et al would have to earn bread some other way ☟︎

davout: but that's kind of the same thing as saying "work creation is rewarded" when more modern airplanes require more maintenance

asciilifeform: exactly same

ben_vulpes: rails webshites have 10x the complexity for 1.1x the 'features'

davout: you could fix the cessna i fly with a toothpick and some wire, doesn't mean that the existence of the A380 is justified by the creation of labor for the cattle

asciilifeform: well point of a380 is supposed to be moving folks across ocean cheaply

davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c ☟︎☟︎☟︎

davout: asciilifeform: yeah that's the point

davout: not "creating more labour to keep the cows busy"

asciilifeform: davout: my observation was that there is ~0 incentive to make wwwtronic systems lighter/more consistent/more apprehendable/less broken. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and quite a bit of incentive in opposite direction.

davout: your point is basically that the fireman could have a tendency to pyromania? ☟︎

asciilifeform: davout: not simply this, but that these particular firemen do very little ASIDE FROM setting fires.

asciilifeform: have, in fact, invented a means of 'putting out' fire that simply moves it, 10x amplified, to another spot. ☟︎

asciilifeform: rather like al schwartz's roach repellent which merely moves them to the neighbouring flat.

davout: well, i think that this is a result of people being stupid and lazy, not really much more

asciilifeform: davout: stupid and lazy come from misaligned incentives.

asciilifeform: when stupidity, laziness, lead to starvation - they evaporate rapidly.

davout: i blame 16gb of ram being seen as a small-sized server as the main cause of lazyness

asciilifeform: the lack of incentive thing is elementary

asciilifeform: for instance, what would happen if ben_vulpes were to fix the crud on a permanent, published basis ? rather than case-by-case

asciilifeform: his firm would fold.

asciilifeform: (nor, i suspect, could he do this even if he wanted to - would have to also fix 1,001 turdware libs that the sufferers use, each of which will never be fixed because some 3-man shop somewhere also needs to eat... etc)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480691 << gotta understand, the number of people alive qualified to do this safely is probably < 100. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c

asciilifeform: similar to reactor operators.

asciilifeform: how many 'i wanna web site!111' folks are ready to pay for a year of 'there are 100 of me' time.

asciilifeform: this is elementarily a debasement situation

asciilifeform: 'we haven't enough bread, let's serve up 90%/10% sawdust/flour'

davout: probably just as many people that are willing to pay $maxint to be able to shit in golden toilet

asciilifeform: davout: fewer.

asciilifeform: golden toilet is 'status object', can be displayed.

davout: the point is that wtf do i need golden toilet for, i shit just as fine on a regular one! ☟︎

asciilifeform: aha, in software world they re-defined 'just fine' to include turdolade that won't even build, regular crashes, infections, whole shebang.

asciilifeform: as per http://oglaf.com/delusionist

davout: if what i want is sell dildos online, and $framework runs on 15$/month box, wtf do i need a website that could run on a ti-89 for x10000 the price? ☟︎

asciilifeform: for absolutely nothing, esp. if you can offload the cost of your turd being pwned weekly, needing 16GB of ram, crashing daily, etc. on OTHER PEOPLE ☟︎

asciilifeform: like factory owner offloads pollution into the river.

asciilifeform: imagine if programmers actually had to answer for their pollutants. ☟︎

asciilifeform: like chemists do.

asciilifeform: currently these folx are living in a golden age of 'i'll take a shit as big as i like and somebody ~else~ will clean up'

davout: i can see your parallel with the fiat world through the mere existence of the "technical debt" expression

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: the magic here is that this debt, like the other debt, is NEVER paid.

asciilifeform: only gathers interest.

davout: i'm not sure i agree with the generalization

asciilifeform: think about ben_vulpes's docker

asciilifeform: and all of the idiocies papered over by the use thereof

asciilifeform: these will pile up, up.

asciilifeform: certainly nobody is shoveling the shit in any other direction but - higher.

asciilifeform: and higher.

asciilifeform: in exactly what way does this process differ from fiatocalypse ?

davout: while i don't care much for docker specifically, i don't think it's a good approach to blame people's stupidity and lazyness on *tools*. sure it makes it easier to be retarded. and if your point is that it makes every sane's person job harder, why not, i can agree with that

asciilifeform: tools are not dropped by martians, but are made in response to incentives.

asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/02/industrys-parting-gifts.html << classic orlol on subj

davout: "have larger club, kill more enemies, rape moar of their daughters", pretty clear to me. "intentionnally shit in my own soup, so i can remain employed as a maker of fresh soup, as a general thing" is something i have a bit more trouble seeing though

asciilifeform: 'Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality.... When consumers refuse to pay so much more than they feel they have to, Company A's widget fails in the marketplace, and the company is liquidated.' ☟︎

davout reading

asciilifeform: davout: it never looks like you're shitting in own soup, from the inside.

asciilifeform: looks like 'bigger club'

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758235 << turns out, we had a thread! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2014-07-16 19:04 mircea_popescu: "Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality." << hey check out orlov.

davout: "while testing, kitting-out and packing would be performed by religious groups (in conservative states) and groups of people with alternative sexual orientations (in liberal ones)" <<< win

davout: asciilifeform: interesting read indeed

asciilifeform: 'company D' does not exist. no sane investor knowingly funds a 'company A'; no sane engineer knowingly works for a 'company B'; nobody sane at all is interested in involving himself in a 'company C'/

asciilifeform: .

asciilifeform: which rounds out the list.

Framedragger: framedr

Framedragger: whoops ignore, window focus damn you

trinque: $up Arathnim

deedbot: Arathnim voiced for 30 minutes.

trinque: Arathnim: hello, saw you in #lisp talking to gabriel_laddel

Arathnim: trinque: Thanks.