▁▁▁▁▁⏐︎▁ 10515
jurov: trinque: thx
trinque: yw
jurov: shinohai: you can retry now, looks like the error was on my side
shinohai: thx jurov.
shinohai: It shows order went through manual but no receipt jurov
mircea_popescu: sooo... cechens blew up ataturk airport huh
BingoBoingo: If we try to cover all of these qntra is going to have to add a "weather" category for them
BingoBoingo: But will consider doing so after cult meeting
mircea_popescu: lol yeah, didn't mean for qntra. just mentioned it because it seems to me the "isis" figthers were ru special forces. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: I dunno I'm thinking about a "weather" category nao
mircea_popescu: $up fiddlerwoaroof
deedbot: fiddlerwoaroof voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494505 << is logic here 'the genuine article would Never!11' or what ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 00:20 mircea_popescu: lol yeah, didn't mean for qntra. just mentioned it because it seems to me the "isis" figthers were ru special forces.
mod6: The Most Serene Tabernacle || Tabernacle of La Serenissima
mod6: my 0.00000002
mod6: s/Tabernacle/Temple ? Anyway, just throwin it out there.
shinohai: ^
shinohai: also, here's how to enjoy cheap rum mircea_popescu http://i.imgur.com/GeHPuNb.jpg
mod6: cute freckles
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, just the guy's private history. bulgaria wouldn't extradite him a few years ago ; before that was wounded in daghestan but survived etc.
mircea_popescu: shinohai meh, crappy rum crappy girl an wtf is with those ties.
mircea_popescu: inb4 shinohai is all "how dare you dis my wife OMG VENDETTA"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/UCI_tickets.html#6 << what all would be encompassed by 'networking'?
mircea_popescu: you mean 7 ?
ben_vulpes: fml
ben_vulpes: yes
mircea_popescu: it must be capable to open a socket i think.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking of uci, ever consider generalizing luby's algo to ~calculation~ ?
mircea_popescu: possibly.
ben_vulpes: and per 'storage', be able to read from that socket and write bytes to disk, for example
mircea_popescu: it's really a draft of a spec as it is.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes read from and write to yes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that would close the triangle
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it already takes carr of comms and storage...
asciilifeform: *care
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform either that or homomorphic encryption
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't enough
asciilifeform: chaos is bigger adversary here than any others
asciilifeform: you gotta somehow abstract over the 1024 chickens pulling in random directions and dying periodically.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: this is true.
ben_vulpes: how would someone in the wot interact with the uci; operation by operation over irc? shoop a script in uciasm for execution and billing upon completion?
mircea_popescu: anyway, feel free to propose refinements, ima edit it.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i would expect there'd have to be a management language for this.
ben_vulpes: i don't have a good enough model to propse anything yet, hence the questions
mircea_popescu: ie, uci admin thing advertises what it does, gets an order.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as i understand: by signing and broadcasting a message.
ben_vulpes: "open socket to"
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't necessarily be over irc, though irc IS rather resilient and we get the benefit of bootstrapping a major irc network if we bake it in
ben_vulpes: "write 0xd3adb33f"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ideally it'd be more like "run this bash script"
asciilifeform: whether nodes obey would depend on who signed.
mircea_popescu: then uci responds with "script ran, results os and so, paqy here"
mircea_popescu: not entirely sure bash it is the right way here ; but it does cheaply (in cognitive terms) expose the system for usage. which is why ssh runs into a bash shell.
asciilifeform: there are 2 basic angles to approach uci : the standard botnet model, which appears to be what mircea_popescu is thinking of, where nodes are individual boxes running specific program that does fairly straightforward thing,
asciilifeform: and the other one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm thinking a "independent nodes" sort of botnet, as opposed to the zombie windowze thing usually run
asciilifeform: where a node receives encrypted 'rubbish' and does ?????, and sends various rubbish back, and adversary would have to capture 67% of nodes to have any clue re what.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the tor model is, other than its many implementation warts, fundamentally broken i think.
asciilifeform: not thinking of it here
mircea_popescu: anyway. uci is not gossipd. there is a good reason to implement gossipd OVER uci, but on the uci layer the thing shouldn't be concerned with this kind of security i don't thinl
asciilifeform: this is in the homomorphic vein
mircea_popescu: yeah but we don't have that cheat as of yet
ben_vulpes: metered 'eval'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: very easy to botch, note
asciilifeform: (consider etherfartgas)
mircea_popescu: even if you just run top and count ram/cpu it's close enough
asciilifeform: nontrivial on toy os
ben_vulpes: huh
mircea_popescu: bear in mind, we're not selling investors on this. cheap, broken, angry sample to iterate on is jus' fine.
asciilifeform: btw there was a trojan bearing 'tinyscheme'
ben_vulpes: noxious as it is, linux containerization and 'docker' in particular might be a good foundation for a 'cheap, angry' prototype
asciilifeform: worked kinda like this...
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ick, massive
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes too many lines of code
asciilifeform: you need maybe 100kB max.
ben_vulpes: but the fun of hurting them with their own tools
mircea_popescu: they know more holes in "their own tools" than you do.
asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: silk road hurt the shit out of itself with "their own tools"
ben_vulpes: note, not seriously advocating use of docker.
mircea_popescu: i think it's time to bury that corpse, it smells.
mircea_popescu: no i know, it's not on you ; just, the matter has to be discuss't.
asciilifeform: anyway something simple, like a mips emulator, fits in 200ln of c, and can execute N cycles permitting B bytes of storage, etc.
mircea_popescu: more along these lines i'm thinking.
ben_vulpes: notquite 'bash'
mircea_popescu: ie, some sort of arm/embeddable os approach
mircea_popescu: notquite, no.
asciilifeform: beauty is,
asciilifeform: you can buildroot for it...
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: bam, os, bash, whatever.
ben_vulpes: hang on wut
ben_vulpes: like i'm five?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: victim ends up running something like a nintendo emu
asciilifeform: but that has nic, disk, etc
ben_vulpes: what does mean "bash, whatever"
asciilifeform: if you emulate a cpu that gcc knows how to target,
ben_vulpes: oh a buildroot that compiles a 'linux' to the nintendo emu arch?
asciilifeform: you can build, e.g., linux, for it.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: in 'idle' state, when the thing has no payload, it listens for a lubyfied turd signed with $key.
asciilifeform: for years, if it has to.
asciilifeform: when it pieces one together, and it passes sig - it runs.
ben_vulpes: this'd be your proposed extension
asciilifeform: for C cycles.
asciilifeform: then stops.
asciilifeform: and listens again, etc.
ben_vulpes: where C is governed by?
mircea_popescu: arbitrary set by box owner
mircea_popescu: gordian solution to turing problem.
asciilifeform: Min(box-c, turd-c)
ben_vulpes: if the lubified turd came from the supervisor process C could come along with the 'script'
mircea_popescu: script should prolly include a "needs C"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it dun matter where it comes from, so long as valid sig
asciilifeform: maybe it comes from shortwave picked up in soundcard hiss.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if we do it like that will have to have expiration.
asciilifeform: maybe on bbc.
mircea_popescu: not the end of the world, 1700 business orders carried expiration.
asciilifeform: at any rate, nothing precludes listening for new turd WHILE running current one.
ben_vulpes: so then worker process would have to get involved in the billing loop?
phf: so proposed solution is a subset of qemu with metering, etc?
mircea_popescu: seems to be coallescing that way
asciilifeform: phf: without the qemu crapola
asciilifeform: emulate mips, or even oisc
phf: well "qemu", a virtual machine of some sort
asciilifeform: in that sense, yes
ben_vulpes: i imagined that each installed worker process would listen for orders from only one key, which'd handle billing.
ben_vulpes: or, read from tickets.
mircea_popescu: at the other end of the spectrum, it can just be open bash and well, don't take code from people you don't trust.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the key emplaced on install.
phf: notch's DCPU-16
asciilifeform: permanent.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: aok. then not 'any key in wot' and bill afterwards
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: open boxes are rubbish.
asciilifeform: because syphilitic.
mircea_popescu: in general yes. but wot-open is not open.
asciilifeform: if you want wot-open, yer stuck with above algo.
asciilifeform: and not ever 'just bash'
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is a political choice mostly. if we do a "gentleman's agreement" and no code sorta thing, we end up strongly centralizing, army of lovers.
mircea_popescu: if we do a "trust but verify" no agreement all code, we end up strongly decentralizing, but exposed to you know, thedao.
asciilifeform: my understanding was that we are specifically protocolizing what was once customarily promise.
ben_vulpes: what would 'no code' even mean?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform -V
asciilifeform: aha, as in v.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that there's no specific check or test other than top | grep "ram" sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, -V means, be verbose. put your idea in explicit form.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we aren't merely 'let's pool chumpnets between phriendz' here.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: but rather mechanizing the process of harnessing chickens.
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying that we are, but WHY NOT must be stated, and in such a way 107 iq guy in 2049 reading this understands exactly wtf.
mircea_popescu: hence, -V.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for one thing, traditional bot-herding is a misery in 1,001 ways: intensely platform-specific, suffers various central points of failure, etc
mircea_popescu: yeah, the platform specificity is a bitch.
asciilifeform: which is why you want TINY emulated thing.
mircea_popescu: the whole point of uci is for there to be no more platform in that sense. course, this seems an unlikely goal.
asciilifeform: quite easy to do actually.
asciilifeform: the p2p control is the one tricky bit
phf: so a virtual machine with constraints, "jump to here, run at most 100 ticks, claim at most 100 heap" that's generated for the target with target platform and control key baked in during generation
asciilifeform: most chumps live behind nat.
asciilifeform: we sorta went over this in the pogo threads.
asciilifeform: phf: correct.
mircea_popescu: HOWEVER, it will create, if successful, a ready way to resolve http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-28#1492111 and such problems. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-28 15:09 asciilifeform: 'when DEC Alpha existed, did you motherfuckers buy?? no?? have fun'
phf: then write your lisps or c compilers that would target the arch
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: "is your dec alpha/toaster/bitcoin miner pluggable into uci ? cool, then it makes money. no ? it's broken fix it"
mircea_popescu: main reason hardware is so centralizing today is exactly lack of this sort of marketplace,
mircea_popescu: so it becomes "winner takes all" sorta tourney.
mircea_popescu: fundamentally uci is a lateral pill for the hardware problem, oddly enough.
phf: asciilifeform: that solution doesn't preclude fancy metering techniques, wot members own control hubs, talk to each other gossip style, and route tasks accordingly
asciilifeform: you want a really small beast, that you can easily polymorph, stuff into roms, various appropriate places..
phf: hmm
mircea_popescu: i certainly see the argument re SMALL.
asciilifeform: the one tricky bit is the crypto
mircea_popescu: the one tricky bit is that other one tricky bit.
asciilifeform: what key is baked into individual instance?
phf: per vm aes pair
asciilifeform: wtf is aes pair?!
phf: a symmetric-key algorithm is my point, say aes, since i don't know any better
phf: but own key for each vm to vm pairing
asciilifeform: symmetric crypto other than otp dun exist.
asciilifeform: we demonstrated this in... march?
asciilifeform: and anyway you can't use symmetric key that could be pulled from the binary by adversary to any useful end.
phf: you will have that problem with any form of crypto. if your binary is compromised it's compromised (ignoring fancy techniques of avoiding compromise)
asciilifeform: revealed pubkey is not a compromise.
thestringpuller: isn't the point of V to prevent compromised binaries?
asciilifeform: revealed symmetric key - game over
phf: so is a symmetric key if you have unique symmetric key for each pairing
phf: "but own key for each vm to vm pairing"
asciilifeform: phf: and how do you accomplish this
asciilifeform: for one thing, 'pairing' is undefined
asciilifeform: nodes can have no meaningful identity other than pubkeys.
asciilifeform: just like wot folks.
phf: asciilifeform: same way as you do with wot folks. you state who you are, then prove it with a sig
asciilifeform: thing is, anon randos don't and can't have 'whos'
phf: well, that's going back to your "not a single byte" unless crypto
phf: but that's unimplementable constraint. anon rando can send you a well crafted pubkey that is bogus, and you will only know it's bogus after you finished your read
asciilifeform: the important thing is that usg's 1,000,000,001 emulated uci sybils should have no bearing on the workings of genuine nodez.
asciilifeform: and - ideally - succumb to doing some useful work on their own as well.
mircea_popescu: phf nothing wrong with whitelist access.
mircea_popescu: you want contact to my uci interface, we agree in advance, and i whitelist your key.
phf: in order to do that you need crypto where each individual byte in a stream carries enough information to make a decision there and then. so you send a byte packet and have a 1/256 change of going to next byte
asciilifeform: but yes, the only topologies i know of for this are the traditional star, with 'signed by fuhrer - blob runs, no - not' or ... reimplementing bitcoin
phf: otherwise you have to read the whole thing before you can make a decision whether or not whole thing is bogus
asciilifeform: phf: reading is cheap.
mircea_popescu: reimplementing bitcoin is not the end of the world anyway. the extant version is crap.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: reimplementing eth would be sad tho.
mircea_popescu: definitely.
asciilifeform: and certainly not 100kB of sad..
mircea_popescu: of course, if you read the java-esque nightmare that "solidity" is, reimplementing eth as a small emu thing would benefit it immensely.
mircea_popescu: hard to do when there's nobody with a clue in "the team", obv.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the sewer rats cannot abide small, simple things
mircea_popescu: or things that work.
asciilifeform: where do you hide a nest in that?!
phf: each slave vm gets a random int id and a symmetric key, master store int<->symmetric key in a binary tree. packet comes in <int><sig>, you get the symmetric key for int and use it to verify sig
mircea_popescu: phf what's this symmetric key fixation ?
asciilifeform: ^
phf: mircea_popescu: it's actually pretty immaterial, public key crypto doesn't buy you anything in this case
mircea_popescu: how do you reason
mircea_popescu: -V motherfuckers!
asciilifeform: phf: it buys you fuhrer-to-swarm broadcast
asciilifeform: instead of 100000000 fuhrer-to-slave dispatches
asciilifeform: srsly
asciilifeform: so far this is kindergarten botronics
mircea_popescu: fine example in the logs today ; http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-01#1494280 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 15:42 mircea_popescu: diana_coman hanbot trinque phf bingoboingo mod6 danielpbarron asciilifeform davout jurov http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/d38a9d86-a5a6-4597-86b6-6436d08597d1/?raw=true btw.
phf: asciilifeform: you're more attached to dismissing symmetric, then i am to preserving it
mircea_popescu: this only exists because asym crypto.
phf: but your original objections were not about broadcast!
asciilifeform: phf: so they weren't.
phf: so i'm just trying to understand better the original objections
ben_vulpes: stantronics: never fight on one front when you can establish five
asciilifeform: 'why not eat broken glass?' '1) dun taste so good 2) ......'
phf: why not eat broken glass 2) .... 1) dun taste so good
phf: is the actual order of events
phf: your thinking about 2) seems to be sloppy, but 1) is a ~point~, so no further discussion is required
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes he's russian whadda ya want.
mircea_popescu: phf it also happens to be my point :D
ben_vulpes: trilema is as swampy as any russian battlefield
ben_vulpes: and then as cold
ben_vulpes: and then swampy again
mircea_popescu: darn!
asciilifeform: cold xor swamp
ben_vulpes: it's a compliment! natural defenses abound.
mircea_popescu: = oil
ben_vulpes: so the security model is still completely up in the air then.
mircea_popescu: pretty much
phf: well, the point of the conversation seems to be for asciilifeform to make sure everyone knows that they are idiots :>
asciilifeform: l0l
mircea_popescu: lmao
ben_vulpes: > kindergarten botronics
asciilifeform: so far i also feel foolish because unable to come up with any serious improvement over traditional 20th c chumpnet.
asciilifeform: where the magic privkey is central throne of failure.
mircea_popescu: (which is how this works, when my disintersted luddite view humiliates him he lashes out)
ben_vulpes: and is the harnessing chumpnet thing still design vision and not people with real hardware to lease?
asciilifeform: thus far i can't offer anything but same stone knife and bear skin mircea_popescu offers.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes how do you mean ?
ben_vulpes: proggy with advanced c/c discovery routines etc vs. much simpler thing one compiles and installs on boxes under ones physical control
mircea_popescu: i dunno how to extract a sentence out of your last two lines.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you already have that latter one
asciilifeform: ssh
ben_vulpes: the 'lovers army'
asciilifeform: snore.
ben_vulpes: army of lovers, w/e
mircea_popescu: that's 4 now.
mircea_popescu: everyone hates a verb ;/
asciilifeform: it is worth thinking about wtf the point of uci was
mircea_popescu: there's no point in the sense of "this is what we're trying to accomplish". there's a few drivers ; and logically some likely outcomes. should i enumerate ?
asciilifeform: 'The goal of TMSR as far as computing is concerned is to deploy a cheap, effectual, networked computing interface that can not be disrupted significantly under any circumstances by any adversary for whatever reason.'
asciilifeform: was there moar?
mircea_popescu: that's a different (and much lower) level of the discussion. was that your target ?
asciilifeform: i was wondering what we want it to do, that can later not be disrupted etc.
asciilifeform: what the useful payload is.
mircea_popescu: yeah, you're mixing teh levels. lemme rant for a while.
asciilifeform tunes in
ben_vulpes looks for davouts popcorn
mircea_popescu: so, strategically, we (as in, humans, people, we) are confronted with an adversary (ie, socialist state, usg, aliens, the devil incarnate, pure evil, etc) that predicates its relevancy upon targeted computing denial (see http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-enforcement/ ; and also http://trilema.com/2015/mika-epstein-aka-ipstenu-is-a-thoroughly-clueless-poser/ re the ddos "we won't fix" and so on ) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: practically, bitcoin has shown, and before that theoretical considerations have indicated and predicted, at various levels of abstraction, that computing will commodify. moreover, the adversary itself is creating an eth to this particular bitcoin - they call it "the cloud".
mircea_popescu: from these it necessarily follows that tmsr must make a correct commodization interface for computing resources.
mircea_popescu: that's one level. and it informs the practical definition of uci, an implementation thereof, as you quote it.
asciilifeform: it remains possible that 'cloud' == 'rent out space inside your nose' , though.
mircea_popescu: if correctly executed, this will result in sugar, spice and everything nice necessarily. not just denying the adversary the one pasture it truly needs ; but importantly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494660 ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 03:50 mircea_popescu: HOWEVER, it will create, if successful, a ready way to resolve http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-28#1492111 and such problems.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it remains possible, yes. review your objection re "spamming reddit", which is exactly the same principle at work in a smaller snowglobe. their swarm of pinoy breed there, right ? pasture.
asciilifeform: for one thing, no machines outside of my house can carry out the functions of 1 machine inside. various reasons - cryptohygiene, speed of light, reliability.
asciilifeform: imho 'cloud' is ~crud.
mircea_popescu: i am in general more than happy to go into "don't interrupt - mistake" mode, whenever i know this to be the case.
mircea_popescu: here, i don't know this to be the case, moreover i suspect otherwise.
mircea_popescu: (no, i've no proof, nor signature, etc etc)
asciilifeform: lel
mircea_popescu: for srsly.
asciilifeform: 1024 chickens cannot replace my ox, now or ever, for perfectly fundamental physical reasons. which does not mean that the chickens cannot propel some cart, somewhere, in approx correct direction.
asciilifeform: but http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-28#1492111 is neither here nor there. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-28 15:09 asciilifeform: 'when DEC Alpha existed, did you motherfuckers buy?? no?? have fun'
asciilifeform: it is also worth noting why chickens appear to work so well for the tard crowd
asciilifeform: it is because their crud doesn't actually need to work!
asciilifeform: aws lost the disk? no tears!
asciilifeform: it isn't as if the random rubytardation was connected to a reactor that will melt down now.
asciilifeform: more likely than not, the creator of the atrocity will even continue to get paid, while the crater smoulders
asciilifeform: so nobody gives half a fuck.
asciilifeform: not so for actual people.
asciilifeform: who MUST get 4 when they 2+2, every single time, and within 1ns, hell or high water
asciilifeform: or satellite loses orbit, reactor melts, privkey bits leak, cats fuck dogs, ragnarok.
asciilifeform: 'cloud' works for certain specific purposes, like ddos, where the malfeasance of any number of individual drones has 0 consequence.
asciilifeform: anywhere else, it readily breaks down into barf
asciilifeform: like rotting racoon on a hot summer road, it is ok dinner for ants, but not for us...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the implications of what you are arguing. if your idea of "irreplaceable home box" stands, this necessarily reduces to fortresses, armies and dirigibles. a world which happens to exclude a lot of people ☟︎
mircea_popescu: first on the list, you.
asciilifeform: do i need dirigible to have fork in my kitchen ?
asciilifeform: fork is also not cloudizable.
mircea_popescu: to have a fork obama can't confiscate ? yes.
asciilifeform: obama can confiscate my liver.
asciilifeform: not only fork.
mircea_popescu: hence the problem.
asciilifeform: not solvable by trying to outsource liver to 1024 chinese.
mircea_popescu: this is an open matter.
asciilifeform: if he homomorphic thing existed, i would be inclined to agree with mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: but afaik it does not.
asciilifeform: *the h
asciilifeform: at any rate i was excluded from various things, like felt top hats, long ago, and will doubtless be excluded from other nice things, like forks and livers, in the future, but it does not follow that random rubbish now logically substitutes for the missing items.
mircea_popescu: certainly not.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the fork example is miserable. fork is commodity item and thus cloudized already. if obama steals your fork you go to chinese shitshop across street buy replacement.
mircea_popescu: if you could only eat at versailles, you'd be fucked.
thestringpuller: didn't realize daniel krawwisz was a brony...makes a lot of sense tho
mircea_popescu: which is why louis tried to convince the idiots they can only TRULY eat at versailles.
mircea_popescu: it worked!
asciilifeform: cpu is cheaper to reproduce than steel fork.
mircea_popescu: testement to just how fucking stupid people are.
asciilifeform: it is really only a photograph.
mircea_popescu: eh. this is not a discussion of metaphysics.
asciilifeform: and 'can go across street and buy new one' != 'cloudized' !
asciilifeform: not same at all
asciilifeform: the fork i eat with is physics
asciilifeform: Lly local
asciilifeform: physically local
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> cpu is cheaper to reproduce than steel fork it is really only a photograph. <mircea_popescu> eh. this is not a discussion of metaphysics.
asciilifeform: and does not need to plug into a tap of forktronium from external world
mircea_popescu: forget the fork, and generally what is this slop!
asciilifeform: i dun find electrical communism, where i somehow need some derps across the town to add my own 2+2 and save the result, any more appealing than the other kinds.
asciilifeform: all kolhoz is equally bovinizing.
asciilifeform: it is bad enough that we use mains grid.
asciilifeform: (and recall, sane folk dream of abolishing such thing, not cementing it)
asciilifeform: $s pebble reactor
a111: 2 results for "pebble reactor", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pebble%20reactor
mircea_popescu: methinks you're modeling this wrongly.
mircea_popescu: that i have the option to fuck any woman in town does in no conceivable way reduce to me being married to every woman that ever lived.
mircea_popescu: it is in fact the exact opposite thereof. anthropology attests to this point.
asciilifeform: walk me through the connection ?
mircea_popescu: there's no "you need some derps across town to add your own 2+2" ; but instead "from the fact that you added 2+2 eve can't discern where the fuck you did it"
mircea_popescu: anonimity - not for the poor. but for the tools!
asciilifeform: we dun have the tech for 'can't discern'
asciilifeform: any of it.
mircea_popescu: to an alarming degree, which passes for "normal" in the mind of derps like rms, because it's common and he's confused, computing IS ALREADY TIVOIZED
mircea_popescu: there isn't much in common between computer and hammer.
asciilifeform: elaborate?
mircea_popescu: you can't convict without body BECAUSE the "this hammer points at you, mr alf" is a sham ; and known as such, and for a long time.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, most modern "law enforcement" by mass is "this computer points at you mr alf". which is rank nonsense, and must go away.
asciilifeform: it will vanish with the muppet audience, and not before
mircea_popescu: contrary to what democratic idiots like to think, and keep affirming, the beoble has exactly no impact on history.
asciilifeform: 'she floated, therefore witch' also 'worked'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand the problem with the pretense : sword cuts both ways, before you know it, i'm using it to cut their heads.
mircea_popescu: pretense isn't the problem here.
asciilifeform: they never seem to run out of heads tho
mircea_popescu: nor i.
mircea_popescu: "i fuck my wife every morn and every evening, she's not yet run out of cunt". what if she had ?!
asciilifeform: we had a cp thread iirc
mircea_popescu: cp = ?
asciilifeform: where i noted that 'jailed for child pr0nz' only EVER happens to folks who a) need to have problemz b) plebe meat to keep the blades greased
mircea_popescu: point remains : the "we don't know which physical object maps to the logical object called <this server>" bit worked, even in the "look but don't touch" version displayed by tor. in fact - it was the bait in that trap.
asciilifeform: and never, e.g., obummer
mircea_popescu: now, time to make a day of it, and the bait a full wedding meal.
asciilifeform: tor never worked tho
mircea_popescu: tor never worked, but THE "we don't know which physical object maps to the logical object called <this server>" BIT did!
mircea_popescu: EVEN omfg i gotta spell what i say out for you ?
asciilifeform: except that hitler knew
mircea_popescu: EVEN in the "look but don't touch" version displayed. ye ken ?
asciilifeform: and all the folks who believed that he didn't, are ~dead now
mircea_popescu: ...
asciilifeform: what does '.. but don't touch' mean?
asciilifeform: i' clearly missing sumthing
mircea_popescu: let's try a comparison, to clear this up. so : capacitive display, as seen in ipad, is inherently cool. the capacitive display would be the "can't phyisically identify box running server".
mircea_popescu: now, the tor would be "ipad", except a peculiar sort that does not in fact work.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, people still line up to buy it, and go crazy about it, and on and on. EVEN THOUGH nobody actually got to take one home,
mircea_popescu: but it was merely displayed, chinese mangos style.
asciilifeform: perpetuum mobile ?
mircea_popescu: the fact that the ipad as such doesn't exist and never worked
mircea_popescu: has exactly no bearing on the fact that the capacitive display actually works, conceptually.
mircea_popescu: this make sense nao ?
asciilifeform: so posited. eeexcept in this case there was no display, no eternally turning wheel, but some dwarf hidden in the mechanism was turning a crank
mircea_popescu: the fact that the purportedly observed behaviour, EVEN IF FAKED, still violates no physics laws is now out of the bag.
mircea_popescu: the race is on to reproduce it without faking.
asciilifeform: nobody actually invented the working thing tor purported to be.
mircea_popescu: but the concept of "a method which does not allow mapping of physical resources to logical resources by third party" DOES work. ☟︎
asciilifeform: and yes, it is on. i personally watched usg blow ~50mil on homomorphicola, to 0 result.
mircea_popescu: they're going about it wrong. as usual.
asciilifeform: probably it spent 100x that if you count the black efforts also.
mircea_popescu: the botnets are a lot closer to the result, in practice, than usg ever got.
mircea_popescu: much like bitcoin etc etc.
asciilifeform: they don't actually solve the problem.
mircea_popescu: your notion of "actually solve the problem" oft shipwrecks on metaphysical shores.
mircea_popescu: eating also "doesn't solve the problem".
asciilifeform: bot nodes can and often do get successfully forensically raped and point straight to c&c throne, which, ditto
mircea_popescu: dumbass topology.
asciilifeform: it is forced by nat, to a large extent.
mircea_popescu: the failure of single men to matter is not to be construed as saying anything about the abilities and capacities of hordes with herds in tow.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, that's the convenient excuse. it is forced by the fact that "botmaster" === "pimply idiot with no social insertion".
mircea_popescu: ie, can't wot.
asciilifeform: how does wot solve nat ?
asciilifeform: as we have it, 99%+ of chump boxes can't get inbound ~anything.
mircea_popescu: define "nat".
asciilifeform: this forces a star topology.
mircea_popescu: why do we care re chump boxes ?
mircea_popescu: and star can mean many things.
asciilifeform: because the number of voluntary boxes is 3?
mircea_popescu: and you know this through massaging your prostate until a number squirts out ?
asciilifeform: we dun even have 3 reliable trb nodez.
asciilifeform: that's how.
mircea_popescu: stop mixing shit against entropy flow. you don't give the first of a flying fuck about the number 3. you're wrtiting code, it may not contain magic numbers.
asciilifeform: point being that 'lover army' sums to 0 if you want 'unattributable computing' etc.
mircea_popescu: if it's right it's right and if it's wrong it's wrong. a statistical argument may not decide this. it'll be just as wrong with 3 billion and just as right with 0.
mircea_popescu: that's not even a point.
asciilifeform: it works with 100 rapees but not with 200 lovers.
mircea_popescu: for it to be a point it'd have to be constructed out of things that may exist in the same sentence, which it isn't.
asciilifeform: the involuntary participation is key.
mircea_popescu: you've not defined "involuntary participation" in such a way as to put it in this soup and prove anything.
mircea_popescu: go ahead, i'll listen.
asciilifeform: per http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494891 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 05:25 mircea_popescu: but the concept of "a method which does not allow mapping of physical resources to logical resources by third party" DOES work.
mircea_popescu: please make whole sentences. include the verbs, and the nouns, and so on.
asciilifeform: unless i catastrophically misunderstand, the point of 'can't connect event with physical box' is to make usg inquisitions prohibitively expensive
mircea_popescu: there is not a point in this sense. ☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. they were not able to confiscate and search every box in ipv4 space to see which was sr
asciilifeform: (if tor actually worked, they would have had to, or to give up)
mircea_popescu: actually, i don't think our scheme necessarily allows to know WHICH it was even if you confiscate them all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if not this, then what?
mircea_popescu: heck, bitbet didn't keep logs. confiscate all you want. was it a timely enough confiscation ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: upstream had logs!111
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can try and push the conversation in your "the purpose is X" scheme all you want ; it won't go there, because, again, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494929 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 05:36 mircea_popescu: there is not a point in this sense.
asciilifeform: the reasonable supposition is that all plaintext going a kilometre or longer outdoors is logged.
mircea_popescu: that may be.
asciilifeform: ergo 'bbet logged'
mircea_popescu: mno.
asciilifeform: now i'm lost
mircea_popescu: "all things were preordained by god - ergo bbet logged".
mircea_popescu: wtf is this.
asciilifeform: y'know, my toilet doesn't log, but if flush a blended corpse down it, it is not so difficult to prove later, where it went.
asciilifeform: same idea here,
asciilifeform: .
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494934 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 05:38 mircea_popescu: heck, bitbet didn't keep logs. confiscate all you want. was it a timely enough confiscation ?
mircea_popescu: ~timely~
asciilifeform: this - possibly.
mircea_popescu: so no, you fake your absolutes. flush blender corpse all you want ; maybe something can be proven later. but there's no guarantee.
asciilifeform: for fuxxsake usg long ago dispensed with absolutes re evidential standards
mircea_popescu: that has no bearing.
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to import usg.retardation for any reason.
asciilifeform: most cp convictions, say, are ~= witch trial
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: there isn't a purpose, how hard is this to grok ?
asciilifeform: so who is the target of the obfuscatron ? malevolent martians?
asciilifeform: not usg?
mircea_popescu: whether it does x or does y is indifferent.
mircea_popescu: there IS NO TARGET
asciilifeform: 'i have this pistol because IT IS HUGE mutherfackerz'
mircea_popescu: i get it, you've lived a life dealing with people who want a certain thing to come out of babbage's machine. fine.
mircea_popescu: i don't care what comes out of it. just as long as the process is correct, come what may will be fine.
asciilifeform: but how do you build correct process pistol without some notion of target ? is it on land? under water? armoured? etc
mircea_popescu: you build correct pistol.
mircea_popescu: rather than merely adequate pistol.
asciilifeform: correct takes <argument>
asciilifeform: correct on land is not correct under water, and vice versa
asciilifeform: (seen underwater kalash?)
asciilifeform: and a chimera that tries to work in both land and water, is correct nowhere.
mircea_popescu: lousy engineering.
mircea_popescu: correctness here is dna, not a chunk of bent metal.
mircea_popescu: and correct takes argument, yes, but in the form of... parents. like amoeba, like urmom, like v and like everything else built to last.
asciilifeform: we laugh at usg's submarine-tankoplane.
asciilifeform: it is very easy for undifferentiated, amorphous chunks of possibility to appear 'correct everywhere'
mircea_popescu: notice that if there's something that ruined computing, it's the switch from "we're building computers" to "we would like the secretaries to typeset on these".
asciilifeform: but in actual physical world, when it is time to shoot a frogman you do it with proper chunk of bent metal.
asciilifeform: not with dna.
mircea_popescu: maybe i do it with a ion gun, for all you know.
mircea_popescu: maybe i shoot him with my penis.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the physical metaphore for computing is shitty, and has definitely outlived its usefulness.
asciilifeform: last i checked computing, like shooting, was still something we do on sadly physical and very limited contraptions.
mircea_popescu: code is not things, which is why whether i;d download a car or not has no fucking bearing on that discussion.
asciilifeform: the folks who try to mathematicize away the physicalities, end up urbiting.
mircea_popescu: everyone swallowed the inept broken premises whole, to debate the end point. fucking hell. nevermind if you'd download a car or not. CODE IS NOT CARS!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and folks who want to know "what purpose" the program is supposed to serve end up writing openssh ; and fifty years later still wallow without proper crypto.
mircea_popescu: the only difference being that folks who abstract end up urbiting only if idiots, and choose to do so ; whereas folks who think program is a car and internet a truck end up with openssh and junk-o-rama no matter what they want, or do, or even understand.
mircea_popescu: they already lost their sanity when put cart before horse.
asciilifeform: anyway i dun actually disagree with mircea_popescu re 'delocalized computing is spiffy'. simply must pointout that we ~don't have it~ and that all of the proposed mechanisms put us no closer to it.
asciilifeform: it is quite like, e.g., tokamak for fusion.
mircea_popescu: yeah well, it is my notion that the proposed scheme, while sinfully vague, is a better prototype for it than anything else available.
mircea_popescu: but i do not propose it's usable as is by any means.
asciilifeform: already largely implemented by classical botnets.
asciilifeform: nobody's creaming his pants re prospect of comouting with them.
asciilifeform: *computing
mircea_popescu: i don't see much of a problem.
asciilifeform: take simple example
asciilifeform: the 8ball.
asciilifeform: show me how to compute it on N boxes, some of which may be malign.
asciilifeform: 'seti@home' et al approach the problem by burning the lion's share of cycles on verification/duplication.
asciilifeform: and still end up resorting to obfuscating the client
asciilifeform: and other idiocies
mircea_popescu: eh, that's not contemplated. your objection is like saying "bitcoin is not the solution because my hairdresser doens't take it".
mircea_popescu: take the obvious example : the reddit thing. can i do it on n boxes, indiferently ?
asciilifeform: it - yes
mircea_popescu: and while i have no doubt seti@home are imbeciles, nevertheless the problem is well solved. voting etc.
asciilifeform: i was addressing the 'replace my comp' aspect
asciilifeform: mno.
asciilifeform: something gotta count the votez
mircea_popescu: "replacing your computer" takes time.
mircea_popescu: cars replaced horses over a century.
asciilifeform: beetles, note, did not.
asciilifeform: why not!111
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?
asciilifeform: i bet 500kg of beetle is cheaper than horse
asciilifeform: and less failure-prone
mircea_popescu: how the everfuck is this germane.
asciilifeform: entirely
ben_vulpes: '1024 chickens'
asciilifeform: now i must sleep a bit, expedition to the bmore epicentre tomorrow, but i will return to this.
mircea_popescu: dude. i gave you an example of cars and horses to explain how TECHNOLOGY IS REPLACED FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE FRUIT TREE UP
mircea_popescu: you're not at liberty to freely migrate this into some crazy shit on a stick like we're doing free word association in the mental patient yard.
mircea_popescu: obviously, X arbitrary usecase is going to be higher hanging fruit than Y. so what the fuck of it, this is always the case.
mircea_popescu: i'm not required to show you a 1980s mercedes sedan in 1882 to explain why the fuck cars are a thing.
asciilifeform: 'replace asciilifeform's comp with 10,000 bots' != 'replace horse with car.' but == 'replace horse with 500kg of insect on strings'
mircea_popescu: "trains will never work because are too loud" sort of nonsense.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're the only one discussing the replacing of your computer.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494805 << ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 04:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the implications of what you are arguing. if your idea of "irreplaceable home box" stands, this necessarily reduces to fortresses, armies and dirigibles. a world which happens to exclude a lot of people
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: this is neither here nor there, inconvenient as it may be, it has no more bearing on uci than it has on hypocaloric diets.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494780 << start of thread ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 04:37 mircea_popescu: if correctly executed, this will result in sugar, spice and everything nice necessarily. not just denying the adversary the one pasture it truly needs ; but importantly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494660
asciilifeform: 'dec alpha' etc
mircea_popescu: neither of these are "replace your computer".
asciilifeform bbl, will soon fall down
mircea_popescu: laters.
asciilifeform: http://beyondnumbers.lvablog.com/2014/11/18/how-casinos-cheat-part-ii-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose << lulzy
shinohai: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/issues/1325
asciilifeform: p40gr3555555555!!!!!!!!!!!
shinohai: Rewriting the whitepaper will fix everything.
mircea_popescu: to continue yest's convo :
mircea_popescu: the train example is very much illustrative. there is no purpose to trains! trains exist because of the following conversation : "hey, this steam engine is pretty neat, but is it always stationary ?" "i guess you could add a rail to it..." "hmmmm". ☟︎
mircea_popescu: that's it. it exists BECAUSE you could add a rail to a steam engine. it doesn't exist TO anything, for all anyone cares it could be to go to the moon or washington as well as better circle the wagons or hunt mountain goats.
mircea_popescu: and in this context there exists a correctness, "what do we make the rail out of ?" "well, minimum mass of functional steam engine is 1 ton, so i guess something rigid enough ; but also can't be friable must be ductile.
mircea_popescu: "oh so no cement, collected baby teeth, braided hay or glass then!"
mircea_popescu: "no, gotta be metal" "silver ?" no, abundant" "then iron is the correct substance" "So it is!"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, considerations of "abstract thinkers" who are really metaphysicians, such as "will people be able to breathe ???" are not to be considered. if they are they live if they are not they die. nobody cares. whether leika comes back down or not is not a point of consideration in the soviet space programme.
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, considerations of powers that wanna be, who really aren't, such as cixi wanting it to be "quiter than x" or hilary clinton wanting it to "not destroy usg because the us understood as usg was always great" will also not be considered.
mircea_popescu: neither of these two form part of correctness ; the consideration of material strength above does.
mircea_popescu: so no, no "correct for x". there is a "correct of y" and that's the whole of the law.
mircea_popescu: ( http://change.com/int/leika-2.html the dog in question, for they unfamiliar with 20th century history)
mircea_popescu: http://time.com/3546215/laika-1957/ << also interested for idiotologists, because of the references to imbecile ustardian press of the 50s, and exact unchanged restatement half a century later. truly nothing has changed in our colonies on the indian plains.
mircea_popescu: apparently a bare tits floor cleanner / anthropologist named jennifer latson actually believes what "the press at the time" said is a source of truth ; and worth the mention other than derisively.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of jennifers : i can report partial data on a multi-year research project. of the "internet demographic" (under 30, poor, intelligent, educated, ambitious - the sort that supplies the seo experts, hackers, camwhores etc), 93% (of 2274) males and 2% (of 741) females actually heard of bitcoin.
asciilifeform: they also heard of neutrino.
mircea_popescu: women are by their nature stupid, there's no way to argue with the data. they'll do great on confucian-style government exams and nowhere else. especially nowhere it matters, such as you know, "the carpet has just been pulled from under clinton and it's not coming back, you know who pulled it ?"
asciilifeform: how many can say anything actionable about either.
mircea_popescu: ask a guy, "mircea popescu", ask a gal, "jennifer latson???"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you saying it doesn't matter ?
mircea_popescu: ~0, % or no %, can say anything actionable about either, or anything else.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also, lajka
mircea_popescu: yaya
mircea_popescu: don't make me load my koi!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1495045 << can't resist this invitation: first railroads were horse-drawn ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 13:58 mircea_popescu: the train example is very much illustrative. there is no purpose to trains! trains exist because of the following conversation : "hey, this steam engine is pretty neat, but is it always stationary ?" "i guess you could add a rail to it..." "hmmmm".
asciilifeform: and had pretty obvious 'purpose' - 'wouldntcha like to go faster on this set of horse'
asciilifeform: faster/longer.
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-01#1494383 < not presently, because http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-18#1409864 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-18 22:21 gabriel_laddel: I have a few obligations to take care of here in the US first.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 19:32 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-01#1494313 << wait, i'm confused. you... live in buenos aires ?
gabriel_laddel: What I had intended to say was: I'm on the hunt for products that are difficult to create in the ussa because of the supergay laws, or the interactions between the supergay laws and the situation in the field (ie, why one cannot make automated turrets to defend one's $100/month flat in the hood == the feds). ☟︎
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: Speaking of which, why is it so difficult to get 'stuff' into BA? If I wanted to ship in a bunch of computer parts and undercut the Uruguay competition (computers reportedly cost 2x what they do in the states because ??) the issues would be what exactly?
gabriel_laddel: (am assuming I'd be able to ship in parts to BA, assemble them into machines and then take a ferry and sell in MTV)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1495076 << yer still thinking like a young fella, i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-11#1465891 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-05-11 19:33 mircea_popescu: fwiw, young males that aren't entirely dumb go almost universally through this phase of "fantasy busienss" where they keep doing various coups in their heads, start a carwash then buy a shoestore with the proceeds then trade that in for a chain fo restaurants etc etc etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 14:39 gabriel_laddel: What I had intended to say was: I'm on the hunt for products that are difficult to create in the ussa because of the supergay laws, or the interactions between the supergay laws and the situation in the field (ie, why one cannot make automated turrets to defend one's $100/month flat in the hood == the feds).
gabriel_laddel: I've already sold 'stuff' here in the states, and don't see how it could possibly be different in SA?
asciilifeform: re the turrets
asciilifeform: armanent business is a well-colonized thing, the power players know who they are.
asciilifeform: and aren't welcoming randos.
asciilifeform: (mega-unsurprise)
gabriel_laddel: Oh oh, my point is more along the lines of - you can't cook mustard gas, use it on the hoodrats and then make use of the large industrial zone near oakland.
gabriel_laddel: why not? feds.
asciilifeform: hoodrats are the loyal servants of feds
asciilifeform: $s anarchotyranny
a111: 6 results for "anarchotyranny", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=anarchotyranny
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform horsedrawn /mule drawn mine rail is not railroad.
gabriel_laddel: right. hence south america
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: who would you like to gas in ~south~ america ?
asciilifeform: i dun get it
gabriel_laddel would like to live in Kr, but it is an ethnostate in which non-koreans cannot own anything.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fefeleaga!1111
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel computers do not cost 2x, except hte locals are 2x as idiotic. the home shopping network demographic pays 20 bux for a plastic "earring organizer", but this is not because "plastic is expensive in the us".
phf: hmm i think a111 returns message references in reverse order..
mircea_popescu: you could liberally do the ferry bit, but it wouldn't net you the (very cheap) ticket cost.
asciilifeform: phf: it does
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I don't really want to gas anyone, but must be able to respond to threats in a reasonable manner
gabriel_laddel: remeber the BA guy on a motorbike?
asciilifeform: which
mircea_popescu: back when they actually had capital controls in place i imported what must amount to one metric ton in us bills via ferry on montevideo.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel VERY, VERY different in SA. you have no fucking idea, and apparently you've not been following my field reports. these people are retarded. economically speaking, they're dumber than a gecko.
gabriel_laddel: the video of a motorbike robbery from reddit a year or two ago
mircea_popescu: you're ~20k words behind.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still question that anybody with two legs, anywhere, is dumber than the folx here in good ol' phreeeeeeedomlande
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I've been reading the reports.. hence my interest.
shinohai: http://archive.is/kx8Gj <<< I may be asshole, but I think ppl like this deserve to lose whatever sums of Bitcoin they had.
asciilifeform: we have a literal meta-africa here
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform economically ? did i tell you about the one time when i took over management of a grocery store for 10 minutes ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when the proprietor went for a smoke ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iudb0amH0sY
gabriel_laddel: ^ anyways, if that occurs I'd like to be able to stuff a backpack full of explosives, let the guy run off with it and then detonate without being bothered by the feds
mircea_popescu: shinohai gaw fallout innit ? the same fucktards who were importantly commenting on websites, rettardit, tardstalk, what have you and "feeling like a trader/investor/capitalist" for a year or so.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel incidentally, if you think that fucktard was "a threat", you have serious issues.
shinohai: Yup, those same fucktards. Now "Please Fbeeeeeeeeeeeye save us!!!!!"
mircea_popescu: for over half the encounter, he was wide the fuck open to a head-to-chin, and the fact that the croc totting ustard DIDNT lay him flat on his ass is an insult to humanity.
mircea_popescu: shinohai because "it ain't right" because "normal people" with "families".
gabriel_laddel: physically I am a twink, anyone trying to rob me with a gun is a threat
gabriel_laddel: my ex-gf was/is stronger than I
gabriel_laddel: (granted, she played sports etc)
mircea_popescu: anyway. ba is safer than a retirement home.
phf: that's a pretty funny video
asciilifeform: did the robber get stabbed? hard to tell from the clip exactly what
mircea_popescu: nah.
gabriel_laddel: the 'victim' just rode away iirc?
gabriel_laddel: and the guy failed to use the gun
phf: who wants a dead american on their hands for couple a hundred bucks?
gabriel_laddel: "did i tell you about the one time when i took over management of a grocery store for 10 minutes ?" < do tell
asciilifeform: what's with robber who puts pistol ~back in pocket~ ?!
mircea_popescu: incidentally : http://trilema.com/2016/mochila-o-muerte/
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i was sick, recently. wanted supplies. idiots were running one single counter (of the two in the place) and the local women were doing their local womanly bullshit : bagfull of 100+ different 10gram items individually wrapped, to be paid with "credit card". so i asked the girl to call the manager over, and she was like "he's that way" and i was i dun give a shit, call him over. at which point some kid with aspi
phf: mochila is like the guy who мочит
mircea_popescu: rations decided he'd cut in and pretend he's the manager, so i asked him his name, at which point the entire fucking sky fell on his head. he didn't see that one coming, he honestly imagined he's going to be the anonymous responsible & in charge.
asciilifeform: ^^!
asciilifeform falls down
mircea_popescu: anyway, they opened the 2nd counter and i was out of there in five minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's what being an argentine is like.
gabriel_laddel: I spoke too soon re mustard gas in sa
mircea_popescu: in general, the correct pattern of interaction with argentines, and i suspect south americans in general, is to talk loudly and carry a whip.
mircea_popescu: they don't understand words, in the sense that the meaning may form but the idea that there's a relation between action and meaning is as foreign to them as tentacles are to mammal reproductory system.
mircea_popescu: but it does get their attention, and the whip does the rest, provided you don't need them for any skilled purpose.
mircea_popescu: they're entirely incapable of skilled labour.
mircea_popescu: except cooking, but that's morel like ritualized activity than labour in any sense.
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: apparently mochila is backpack
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the issue : the flow was "ship to montevideo ferry to ba", but this changed recently, and likely to change more in the future. current president is usg tool and pretty firmly set on raping the locals
mircea_popescu: which, incidentally, is an idea i love. these idiots should not exist.
asciilifeform: 'he wears his heart safety-pinned to his backpack, his backpack is all that he knows!' (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: phf yeah. "sacate la mochilla", which ll = y they mispronounce as sh because mountaineous gits, means "take off your backpack"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you'd prefer ted turner's latifundias to the current fauna ?
mircea_popescu: yes,
mircea_popescu: it is an absurd situation, to hate the usg and propose "independent people" are the solution, then look at what "soberania y patria bla bla" idiots make and decide you'd rather see a slave empire in its place.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, it's true. if the us napalmed this place into the ground i'd be the first to applaud. it's an insult to humanity.
asciilifeform: so where can we visit actual-people-land ?
mircea_popescu: nowhere that i know.
asciilifeform: nazi colony in antarctica ?
asciilifeform: lel
gabriel_laddel: WoT enabled housing, block by block
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: visit barriloche
mircea_popescu: the choices are practically various sorts of socialism, and female-led argentina is WAY the fuck worse than female-led us.
mircea_popescu: do you know old women here have the unmitigated gall to sit in cafes ? LIKE THEY WERE PEOPLE ?!?!
asciilifeform: should i be scouting bmore digs for mircea_popescu, lel ?
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: i'ma be lookin' at 2 boxes tonight
asciilifeform: not quite diribigle-grade, but cheap!111111
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you could get entire street for less than your diesel cost
phf: "backpack or death". that's gotta be lamest gangsta motto i've heard. reminds me of the russian gop stop in the 90s, one tactic was "do you have (cellphone|money|magic the gathering card)?" and if you said no the next gambit always cracked me up "if i found them they will be mine?" like oh shit they're on to me
gabriel_laddel: "visit barriloche" < ?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: german enclave
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im thinking next stop will probably be us gangland conveniently placed close to large campus.
mircea_popescu: loot, rape and pillage irl.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jhu !
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: precisely where i will be visiting.
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: there are ~two~ large campusen in bmore
asciilifeform: jhu (posh, private) and umbc (government)
phf: mircea_popescu: south carolina state
mircea_popescu: phf there's options, just, not sure the chicken's cooked yet.
mircea_popescu likes his chicken cooked to death.
asciilifeform: pretty sure that one's still cluckin' along
phf: "A small university located in Orangeburg, SC where ghetto kids with low GPA's go so that they are able to say that they attended college. Drug and otherwise criminal activity on campus make the school experience here quite similar to living in the projects."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, but i believe you to be the sort who would have also believed romanian state to exist in 1992.
mircea_popescu: phf nah, that's no good.
mircea_popescu: you want extensive gangland few miles away from large school where idiot middleclass / helimoms send their precious, isolated offspring.
asciilifeform: that'd be jhu.
phf: actually a lot of ivies qualify
phf: upenn is north and south of projects, yale is new haven which is ghetto outside of yale perimeter
mircea_popescu: aha. i am evidently not the only one with this plan.
asciilifeform: http://www.jameslafond.com/btg << the blue zone in top center of lafond's map
asciilifeform: yes, the jhu that has armed escorts from lecture hall to garage
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: sorry, you want to live in/near ganglang why exactly?
mircea_popescu: anyway. mass rape of, to quote, "many of the most beautiful Jewesses" is never an accident. everything conspires to get the lambs slaugthered.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel legal immunity. as they say in civ, "our words are backed with nuclear weapons".
phf: i used to live in dodgy part of west philadelphia, and as i would make my way to civilization you'd start encountering campus police on patrol, which i realized is exactly like medieval sentries. these chubby, mostly ineffective guys and girls doing their rounds at 2am. "2 PAST MIIIDNIGHT. ALL IS SAFE"
mircea_popescu: phf kinda why the black criminal world was so indignant over that trayvon martin thing.
mircea_popescu: "bitch, you got a free pass because your white boy ass can't jump, an' now you go an' kill the homeboy ?!?!?!?"
asciilifeform: same reason nazis were indignant over warsaw ghetto uprising
mircea_popescu: quite so.
asciilifeform: 'bitch dontcha know yer job is to die and make soap'
mircea_popescu: anyway. /me has always lived in ghetto. i can't fucking stand "gated communities" and in general the stench of fear.
mircea_popescu: most of the girls can't either.
asciilifeform: plenty of fear in lafond's redzone
asciilifeform: some of them folk have iron doors that'd be the envy of any bank, etc
asciilifeform: i dunno that i've ever been inside of a 'gated komyoonity'
asciilifeform: does a u.s. army base count ?
phf: girl was complaining in ghetto from time to time "man, i'm tired of these black guys hooting and hollering after me, nigga i'm just trying to make it to the store". so we moved to "safest city in united states" and she ~hates~ it. "men here smell of desperation, frankly i'm more terrified of them then i was of ghetto guys"
gabriel_laddel: sorry, safest city in the us is?
asciilifeform: ..alcatraz?
phf: gabriel_laddel: rockville, md. they had a crime here once, a black guy jaywalked.
asciilifeform: lel i lived there for more than decade
mircea_popescu: phf girl has a solid point.,
mircea_popescu: fucking buffallo, will stampede, nothing you can do. felides and canides have better shit to do than get themselves killed over bothering you.
phf: they have city court, district court and state court, and a police building. i've not seen this many police cars patrollin in my life. even in russia
asciilifeform: phf: somebody's gotta issue them parking ticketz!11
asciilifeform: but yes, phf's description is spot on.
asciilifeform: rockville is where the bureaucrat folk live.
asciilifeform: where the 'red' metro line ends.
phf: actually, saw some police cars rolling around recently, that were straight out of Half Life 2. fully black, matte, all angles tanks
asciilifeform: phf: these were issued to all md police precincts some time after gulf war 2
asciilifeform: for phree.
asciilifeform: they are spiffy, i've been inside one, it is like lenin's little tank
phf: something along these lines http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/content/kgo/images/cms/287477_1280x720.jpg
asciilifeform: aha, them
asciilifeform: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-05#859183 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-10-05 03:25 asciilifeform: http://imgur.com/R4EbgZN
mircea_popescu: pretty shitty.
mircea_popescu: no mobility, deeply useless as police vehicle. that's an army truck.
asciilifeform: it dun need mobility. plants down, then opens fire from turret.
asciilifeform: siege engine.
mircea_popescu: that is not police.
asciilifeform: it's internal security, guardia civil, whatever. in usa they both, for historic accident, are called 'police'.
mircea_popescu: ya but it also means they lost.
mircea_popescu: ask nypd veteran from the days the city still ~worked, whether he'd like that for a cruiser
mircea_popescu: or, for that matter, what it being the cruiser means.
asciilifeform: how lost ? the apc is there in case the designated africas try to spill into the rockvilles.
asciilifeform: to mow them zulus down.
asciilifeform: but typically the armoured thing is not used as cruiser
asciilifeform: it gets sent to 'situations'
asciilifeform: where there are already 5-6 cruisers writhing impotently
mircea_popescu: situations lol. such vocabulary even.
asciilifeform: their terminology.
mircea_popescu: ситуация :D
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: aaaanywya.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i'm guessing zoolag is down? ☟︎
thestringpuller: $nodes
mircea_popescu: $ex
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1495250 << no? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 16:56 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i'm guessing zoolag is down?
asciilifeform: blackholed quite often though.
thestringpuller: ??? that one right?
shinohai: Im experiencing much the same with mine, after a while goes to zero connections and never reconnects unless I restart.
thestringpuller: i can't connect to alf-node
thestringpuller: did another restart. (i pinged the ip and it works?). so we'll see what happens. I'm just using -connect to do initial sync.
mircea_popescu: no soup for you! come back with note from stalin!
shinohai: >.<
mircea_popescu: and in other wedding news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/59ea216b3448d34ae033dca13746ade7/tumblr_nqsgypF89E1rhw4clo1_500.gif ☟︎
mircea_popescu: $up xcfw748
deedbot: xcfw748 voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque makes a drive-by comment because otherwise busy drinking at pool with babes
mircea_popescu: bits for tits trinque !
mircea_popescu: help teh faucet flow.
trinque: asciilifeform: UCI is a replacement for AWS or "hosting" or "computing for hire" or whatever you like; comparing it to your beloved home "ox" is ridiculous
xcfw748: greetings, i have some qntra css that BingoBoingo may be interested in
trinque could not be more enthusiastic about joining the UCI conversation when he tires of beer and beauty, bbl!
xcfw748: BingoBoingo this was very little css https://imgur.com/a/5gId0
xcfw748: if you like it i can finish up what's in the @media query for mobile and send it over
mircea_popescu: o look, now it looks more like trilema.
xcfw748: if not, let me know where it falls short and i'll see what i can do
shinohai: http://i.4cdn.org/b/1467483180671.webm <<< for those that like to warm it up before use. ☟︎
asciilifeform done with the ruinz, now off into generic bmore
asciilifeform: pics later.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i should have sent you some "tits for bits" flyers to put up lolz!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo would luvvvv this place
asciilifeform: all of his favourite creatures are here
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1495262 << it was in teh log! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 19:43 mircea_popescu: and in other wedding news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/59ea216b3448d34ae033dca13746ade7/tumblr_nqsgypF89E1rhw4clo1_500.gif
asciilifeform: scootymen, big mamaz, et al
mircea_popescu: not EXACTLY, no!
mircea_popescu: different shot was in log.
asciilifeform bbl, off to see ww2 sub
ben_vulpes: no wai
mircea_popescu: lol. alf getting ahead of you in the seeing the world score ben_vulpes ? WHERE'S YOUR PORTLAND NAO, BISH ???
BingoBoingo: xcfw748: Your CSS has too much style. Looks very Wordpress
ben_vulpes: re last shot
ben_vulpes: we have our own sub tyvm
ben_vulpes: 'hunt for red october'
ben_vulpes: ran around in it nearly yearly...for a while
BingoBoingo: And what's with the black links? Are they links?
BingoBoingo: And grey text, wtf?
BingoBoingo: Admirable effort, but doesn't let default styling shine where it should. It's a bit too much
xcfw748: BingoBoingo thanks for looking
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ah ok then!
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you two know each other ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: no
xcfw748: yes, the black links for post titles and sidebar story links are all links. readers are used to them being links by nature of their placement on the page
xcfw748: the inline links are colored blue to distinguish from adjacent, non link text
xcfw748: re: gray text, which gray text on the page offends?
BingoBoingo: xcfw748: If you could post moble screenshots of both designs (full page) and you will see why Qntra CSS works. Also no, black text is never links.
BingoBoingo: xcfw748: All of it. Text needs contrast.
BingoBoingo: Why should eyes have to work any harder than the minimum. Let brain do the work, not eyes.
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 experiment worked, but is only useful for already crafted tx's since there is no signrawtransaction capability yet.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: xcfw748: As we are strangers pls keep conversation in channel
deedbot: [Trilema] Atti impuri all'italiana - http://trilema.com/2016/atti-impuri-allitaliana/
BingoBoingo: $up xcfw748
deedbot: xcfw748 voiced for 30 minutes.
xcfw748: BingoBoingo noted. is this a direction you would be interested in given some modifications? or is it not the right aesthetic for qntra?
BingoBoingo: The problem is not the aesthetic, but the usability
BingoBoingo: Mission #1 of currenct qntra design is to be maximally accessible independent of device, browser, or physical handicap
xcfw748: this is a good mission
xcfw748: i believe some adjustments can be made to address your concerns
xcfw748: brb making adjustments
BingoBoingo: But as qntra's been around a while now also gotta maintain brand identity, which means current color scheme ☟︎
BingoBoingo: And no specifying fonts, because what if people prefer to change their default font to their favorite?
BingoBoingo: And so on tends to lead to the current theme staying the same.
xcfw748: did not change the font specification from the current css
BingoBoingo: BTW, have you ever read Qntra on Moble?
xcfw748: yes, i appreciated when the @media query was added
xcfw748: makes reading on phone much easier
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1495319 <<< this I agree with. The current scheme is instantly identifiable as Qntra, beyond shadow of a doubt. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 20:49 BingoBoingo: But as qntra's been around a while now also gotta maintain brand identity, which means current color scheme
mod6: shinohai: hey, thanks for checking that out.
xcfw748: BingoBoingo shinohai agree completely. however, brands do evolve over time. i intended this to be an evolutionary update. perhaps went to far?
shinohai: It certainly isn't my decision to make, ignore me. I am of the "if not broke, why fix?" camp
shinohai: np mod6. signing raw tx's would have to be a 15 quintillion step process xD
xcfw748: thanks for your time, if i get bored again i may take another pass keeping feedback in mind
shinohai: >.>
BingoBoingo: ty
shinohai: ?
BingoBoingo: ??
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1495275 << jaysus she falls on the trough no less. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 20:11 shinohai: http://i.4cdn.org/b/1467483180671.webm <<< for those that like to warm it up before use.
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 419023 | Current Difficulty: 2.0945315859538098E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 419327 | Next Difficulty In: 304 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
shinohai: http://archive.is/h9UtE <<< supernova to close their ethereum mining pool, because fuck the hard fork.
shinohai: lulzy
BingoBoingo: $up plp
deedbot: plp voiced for 30 minutes.