log☇︎
179 entries in 0.513s
asciilifeform: quite likely they have an eventual capitulation to llvm ( and 'unification of the churches'(tm) ) planned as well, but i have nfi what's the holdup there
phf: xquartz builds with an llvm for sure, it built with a gcc recently, it's quite likely that it still builds with gcc, since it's a direct fork of freedesktop version (but then it's not clear what crazy things fd put into X11 proper upstream), you can find a range of vintage that'll build all the way back to 10.4, but i'm not sure if you can build what i linked on e.g 10.4 specifically. the bulk of code there is combination of posix AND
ave1: yes, and they will happily import any old project these days (new code analys framework is based on python, even llvm is now imported etc.)
a111: Logged on 2018-05-05 23:03 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/wife-initiated-pantsuit-code-of-conduct-hypocrisy-leads-to-llvm-developer-departure/ << Qntra - Wife Initiated Pantsuit Code Of Conduct Hypocrisy Leads To LLVM Developer Departure
mircea_popescu: apparently usg came to terms with llvm failing in its strategic goals being unavoidable by now.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/wife-initiated-pantsuit-code-of-conduct-hypocrisy-leads-to-llvm-developer-departure/ << Qntra - Wife Initiated Pantsuit Code Of Conduct Hypocrisy Leads To LLVM Developer Departure ☟︎
ben_vulpes: gcc has the ken thompson hack and llvm doesn't dontcha know
phf: llvm only build.
phf: likewise a lot of them pull gcc for build, lots of complaints about "llvm broke N" when you search for anything
mircea_popescu: this is not the same as llvm or wisual-c shittery.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-03 23:41 asciilifeform: re gcc, recall also that it's been put on the usg hitlist, they would like to lead it to a level of dysfunction that will have naive folx welcoming its shooting behind the shed and replacement with Officially blessed clang-llvm
asciilifeform: re gcc, recall also that it's been put on the usg hitlist, they would like to lead it to a level of dysfunction that will have naive folx welcoming its shooting behind the shed and replacement with Officially blessed clang-llvm ☟︎
asciilifeform: so it's a first-class wrecking. sorta like what llvm used to be prior to apple crowning it. riscv is waiting for its apple.
phf: mike_c: i had it working with pretty much everything, gcc4, gcc5, clang/llvm. when i build manually i just use dependencies that whatever local package gives me, at which point make Just Works
phf: fwiw, i'm just tryin' ta get a way to publish an occasional document; i was under an impression that TeX is a no brainer, it's supposedly inherently tmsr friendly. apparently not, and not only that, the whole stack, since before i was even doing computing was already llvm-like. layers upon layers of "autotools"
asciilifeform: and llvm team likewise
a111: Logged on 2017-01-16 23:36 asciilifeform: leaving entirely aside the question of whether ice40 can in fact be made to do anything useful with the 'open' toolchain discussed earlier, or whether a toolchain that required clang, llvm, and ten other poetteringesque abortions is 'open'
asciilifeform: i confess i dun have much interest in ever using llvm for anything.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gcc is no longer an interesting tool - llvm took over. currently being maintained as "coreboot".
Framedragger: i never got to really explore D, but vaguely recall the compiler not being / not relying on llvm some years ago
asciilifeform: but, with, lol, llvm backend.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-15 01:38 asciilifeform: 'OpenSSH 6.6 is the only version that is not affected, because it calls explicit_bzero() instead of memset() or bzero(). ..... older GCC versions do not remove the memset() or bzero() call made by buffer_free() or sshbuf_free(). GCC 5 and Clang/LLVM do, however, remove it.'
asciilifeform: run moar clang/llvm!111
asciilifeform: what the fuck is the point of running a cl runtime so as to run llvm bytecode ?
asciilifeform: ok, looks like they are there so that 1) clang can build them to llvm bytecode 2) emulator then runs same.
asciilifeform: and why does it need to build llvm and clang ?!
asciilifeform: linked item is a llvm bytecode to cl translator ( undergrad homework )
trinque: llvm can compile js to native code. now what?
asciilifeform: x11, or gcc, etc are easily 1000x the volume of shit. and successfully llvm'd.
mircea_popescu: specifically because the llvm heads discussed earlier apparently don't get very far.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-31 18:20 mircea_popescu: but not just llvm - the whole world exists, and it produces things such as "'Static linking of user binaries is not supported on Mac OS X. Tying user binaries to the internal implementation of Mac OS X libraries and interfaces would limit our ability to update and enhance Mac OS X. Instead, dynamic linking is supported (linking against crt1.o automatically instead of looking for crt0.o, for example). We strongly recommend tha
mircea_popescu: are you talking about llvm or about the imaginary market for "Tablets" ?
asciilifeform: recall who pays for llvm, and in what product it is used.
mircea_popescu: the ~only thing that is even vaguely similar to that is the sort of deep-in-the-bowels systems engineering as to my mind best exemplified by the llvm thing and ~nothing else.
mircea_popescu: i'm on the record not conflating them, take the recent c/llvm discussion.
ben_vulpes: and yes wtf llvm is an iridium brick of apple compiler phd time
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't really know what you're asking. his uses llvm-ir to tie into cpp, it's the ~whole point of it.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: llvm is mighty heavy, so i'm not sure how this statement disproves mine
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what means 'on llvm'
ben_vulpes: strandh got his working in llvm in relatively short order
jurov: asciilifeform: i think these somebodies went on to make their own lisp dialect, using python build system or jvm or llvm or somesuch
ben_vulpes: why aren't you using llvm to crap out asts and diff those?
asciilifeform: leaving entirely aside the question of whether ice40 can in fact be made to do anything useful with the 'open' toolchain discussed earlier, or whether a toolchain that required clang, llvm, and ten other poetteringesque abortions is 'open' ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-31 18:20 mircea_popescu: but not just llvm - the whole world exists, and it produces things such as "'Static linking of user binaries is not supported on Mac OS X. Tying user binaries to the internal implementation of Mac OS X libraries and interfaces would limit our ability to update and enhance Mac OS X. Instead, dynamic linking is supported (linking against crt1.o automatically instead of looking for crt0.o, for example). We strongly recommend tha
asciilifeform: i dun see this as a necessary hypothesis. i dare say that if i had to write a c compiler, it would end up looking somewhat more like llvm than gcc.
mircea_popescu: but not just llvm - the whole world exists, and it produces things such as "'Static linking of user binaries is not supported on Mac OS X. Tying user binaries to the internal implementation of Mac OS X libraries and interfaces would limit our ability to update and enhance Mac OS X. Instead, dynamic linking is supported (linking against crt1.o automatically instead of looking for crt0.o, for example). We strongly recommend tha ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: and thus llvm was born.
mircea_popescu: llvm is, from a gnoseologic point of view, a superset of gcc, the upper node.
asciilifeform: llvm was not written at or by crapple
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to say it again : llvm is not "a competitor" for gcc. llvm was written quite exactly with full knowledge of gcc in mind. you know they fully understand how gcc works, and i don't mean on the first order, but on the last, BECAUSE of little signs like these.
mircea_popescu: sure. they know how to do it ; llvm is not "a competitor" for gcc, the notion that someone could "hold out" is nonsense. llvm was written quite exactly with full knowledge of gcc in mind.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1) there is exactly one implementation 2) by... mozilla 3) there is exactly 1 backend 4) which is... llvm 5) the users.
asciilifeform: and onto llvm.
asciilifeform: and llvm
phf: asciilifeform: well, fwiw i used sbcl for years and was running in increasingly larger number of problems. just small annoyances. when i tried interacting with sbcl "community" it turned out to be the usual suspects, google employees, gender pronounced. i have the same antipathy to sbcl as you to llvm
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-13: [17:46:58] <trinque> llvm will never actually implement c/c++ as currently "specified" by the existence of gcc
trinque: llvm will never actually implement c/c++ as currently "specified" by the existence of gcc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is invited to write article where llvm is described eloquently ..
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my position came from a substantial stint of actual study and experiment with llvm.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as a model, i propose to you that there's no substantial difference between this and say your bizarro position re llvm yest.
trinque: asciilifeform: ftr yesterday my point was not lets rally around llvm; you'll notice I've been using nothing but sbcl lately.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but in this sense, merely writing c code is the sin ; compiling it in the nazi flavour of socialism or in the soviet flavour of socialism, llvm vs gcc, is sort-of like, what flowers to leave on the raped body, roses or tulips. << Kalanchoe!
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> openbsd plot bickens with the inclusion of llvm: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=147294297501630&w=2 << Supposedly they wanted it for a while to make Graphix wurk, but who knows anymore how far it will be taken now that it made the CD cut
mircea_popescu: but in this sense, merely writing c code is the sin ; compiling it in the nazi flavour of socialism or in the soviet flavour of socialism, llvm vs gcc, is sort-of like, what flowers to leave on the raped body, roses or tulips.
mircea_popescu: the problem here (as well as above, with llvm) is that without the strongarm to kill sipa / force obedience from hardware vendors etc, you will never be able to make a compiler that works
asciilifeform: work on llvm helps hitler more than it helps us.
trinque: point isn't "llvm is good"
asciilifeform: llvm is a work of evil and i will actively avoid any project that rests on it.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-05 20:27 trinque: to ben_vulpes link, it does not diminish my regard for openbsd that it is moving towards llvm. considering solely the political aspect, they've previously used their own old (and maintained) fork of gcc.
trinque: I would not be surprised if they forked llvm if they ever needed.
trinque: to ben_vulpes link, it does not diminish my regard for openbsd that it is moving towards llvm. considering solely the political aspect, they've previously used their own old (and maintained) fork of gcc. ☟︎
mod6: alf would you be willing to write up a critque/review of llvm/clang in your blog -- something that rounds up the previously stated?
trinque: anybody have a real critique of llvm/clang aside "is more clearly written, has API for hooking in tools, and is therefore evil?"
ben_vulpes: openbsd plot bickens with the inclusion of llvm: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=147294297501630&w=2
mircea_popescu: well no, jurov compiles the client for windows with something ; iirc llvm also worked.
mircea_popescu: what's the exactly one on cpp, llvm ?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-20 18:52 phf: you might not notice it, because you look at it from the perspective of release summaries and hacker news posts, but the kind of decisions that go into llvm are ~entirely~ driven by large corporate with large teams and large hardware needs. it's synergistic.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-20 18:49 phf: Framedragger: despite the rhetoric people here are extremely pragmatic. but when you think about these things there's no reason to allow sloppy thinking. the question is "how much of a dick up your ass is too much dick", and the healthy answer is "none at all". llvm is good technology (it gives you same kind of layering that a decent common lisp compiler does, but for languages that are not used to that kind of richnes
a111: Logged on 2016-06-20 18:49 phf: Framedragger: despite the rhetoric people here are extremely pragmatic. but when you think about these things there's no reason to allow sloppy thinking. the question is "how much of a dick up your ass is too much dick", and the healthy answer is "none at all". llvm is good technology (it gives you same kind of layering that a decent common lisp compiler does, but for languages that are not used to that kind of richnes
phf: you might not notice it, because you look at it from the perspective of release summaries and hacker news posts, but the kind of decisions that go into llvm are ~entirely~ driven by large corporate with large teams and large hardware needs. it's synergistic. ☟︎
phf: t it), but unlike federated gcc, llvm is owned entirely by apple and greater extent other apple aligned corporations. their interests are ~opposite~ to those of enterprising individuals.
phf: Framedragger: despite the rhetoric people here are extremely pragmatic. but when you think about these things there's no reason to allow sloppy thinking. the question is "how much of a dick up your ass is too much dick", and the healthy answer is "none at all". llvm is good technology (it gives you same kind of layering that a decent common lisp compiler does, but for languages that are not used to that kind of richness, so everyone's excited abou ☟︎☟︎
phf: but llvm is definitely toxic because it was designed with the ~explicitly stated goal~ of killing gcc
a111: 70 results for "llvm", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=llvm
asciilifeform: $s llvm
mats: llvm is p technically interesting
Framedragger: is llvm surely shit? i was always wary of it, but technically speaking, why shit?
Framedragger: llvm?
assbot: Logged on 03-03-2016 15:17:37; jurov: just for the record, there are several projects built on top of llvm (cling,clang,clasp) promising C++ interpretation and easy interop with lisp. i tried to build and use these, not one succeeded and they are so behemoth so any analysis of the problem was out of the question
jurov: just for the record, there are several projects built on top of llvm (cling,clang,clasp) promising C++ interpretation and easy interop with lisp. i tried to build and use these, not one succeeded and they are so behemoth so any analysis of the problem was out of the question ☟︎
asciilifeform: the tool's logic (based on 'clang'/llvm) is phucked.
phf: i have it running in a frowned upon state. cmake, llvm, clang
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 22:26:08; mircea_popescu: and you may NEVER say to any user "your program is not working correctly because you've not given tyhe developer enough control over it". this is anathema, and the source of the "llvm-ization" comment.
mircea_popescu: and you may NEVER say to any user "your program is not working correctly because you've not given tyhe developer enough control over it". this is anathema, and the source of the "llvm-ization" comment. ☟︎
ben_vulpes: i am not well versed enough in the history of gcc and llvm to understand this.
mircea_popescu: it is in fact the llvm-ing of the v.
assbot: The Project To Compile The Linux Kernel With LLVM Clang Is Still Alive - Phoronix ... ( http://bit.ly/1o6NUpD )
assbot: LLVM Patches Confirm Google Has Its Own In-House Processor - Phoronix ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q9r7PU )
mircea_popescu: i suspect the llvm crew.
mircea_popescu: In addition to many internal projects at Google, Google Test is also used by the following notable projects: The Chromium projects (behind the Chrome browser and Chrome OS). The LLVM compiler. Protocol Buffers, Google's data interchange format. The OpenCV computer vision library.