▁▁▁⏐︎ 12884
mod6: <+r0nin-> no << heh, so much for that eh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al : trilema.com/2015/he-who-gets-married/
asciilifeform: ^ http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698589 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 23:33 mircea_popescu: dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one.
mod6: wb
mike_c: good evening
mod6: how goes tonight?
mike_c: train sucked, but dinner was good. I'll take it.
mike_c: yours?
mircea_popescu: lamb stu.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ty!
mircea_popescu: "It's all very simple, you sit in the embassy and dissideate"
mircea_popescu: heh not so bad.
mod6: mike_c: good!
mike_c: good god. I downloaded these patches one by one, but there's about a million seals.
mike_c: guess i need to grepcut this thing
phf: mike_c: easiest is to just grab this folder, http://btcbase.org/data/stable/ (and http://btcbase.org/data/experimental/ if you want some "unreleased" shit)
phf: actually i've no idea what you're talking about, but considering "seals" i assumed it's trb
mike_c: oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo.
mike_c: thanks
phf: there's also the mod6 method that builds the whole thing for you, but i haven't tried that since before i wrote own v presser..
mircea_popescu: phf it'd have been great for shrem, had he enough fucking sense to read his own name.
asciilifeform: waiwat
phf: i think that's re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698201 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 16:23 shinohai: Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements"
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: aah
asciilifeform: i dun quite get how come that muppet is still in circulation. i'd naively imagine that he's spent
mircea_popescu: you know what happens to garbage, asciilifeform ?
mircea_popescu: it gets taken to the dump.
mircea_popescu: where it... sits. eternally.
asciilifeform: it sits. not speaks.
mircea_popescu: sometimes a flood or something comes and raises it up again, then it's taken to dump again, sits there more...
mircea_popescu: there's no specific end to garbage.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it only speaks if you listen.
asciilifeform: tru
mircea_popescu: there's spent beer cans from like 1972 sitting somewhere closer to manhattan than you are.
mircea_popescu: just... sitting there. screaming COORS! in the darkness.
mircea_popescu: if someone dug them up and shone a light on them, they'd scream it in full color.
asciilifeform: one time asciilifeform went into a demolition site, found newspapers from 'watergate' in the spaces between old cinderblocks, yes.
asciilifeform: surprisingly -- readable, and in decent mechanical shape
mircea_popescu: so in other random lulz, i just built a pulse checker out of this ten cent girly hairpiece. it's about 20cm long, and basically a chinese plastic spiral with teeth. if you hold it up,. one hand on each edge, and prop your elbows against your thorax it vibrates with the pulse vehehery visibly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the fine synonym for epheb we were using at some point re the herdemocracy aparatchicks ? i'd like to revive it.
asciilifeform: preet?
mircea_popescu: no no.
mircea_popescu: homosexual synonym, not quite minion
mircea_popescu: gah i fucking hate lapses
asciilifeform: catamite?
mod6: <+mike_c> oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo. << aha, the ONLINE version is certainly less work
mircea_popescu: ty!
mike_c: yes. not building yet, but closer.
mike_c: mod6 is gcc 4 necessary? like 5 is not expected to work?
mike_c: blech, i guess make is more likely culprit. it's calling "c ..." instead of "gcc ..."
phf: mike_c: i had it working with pretty much everything, gcc4, gcc5, clang/llvm. when i build manually i just use dependencies that whatever local package gives me, at which point make Just Works
mike_c: yeah, no luck yet. that's what i get for spinning up an ubuntu server out of laziness probably.
mircea_popescu: ubuntu is not particularly known to misbehave here
mike_c: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/iKxpS/?raw=true ☟︎
mike_c: ^ misbehaving.
mod6 looks
asciilifeform: somebody very recently posted same thing
asciilifeform: it means that buildroot failed
asciilifeform: ( failed , specifically, to produce a working gcc envir )
mod6: yeah, very strange
mod6: make sure to use gcc4, i've seen problems myself with gcc5
mike_c: i'll roll back
phf: ooh, you know what, looking at the latest v tree, it looks like the makefiles are modified in all kinds of buildroot specific ways!..
phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by ☟︎
phf: export CC=$(shell readlink -f toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc)
phf: it shouldn't
mod6: mike_c: did you get all of the vpatches, seals, and other things as described in the Howto?
mike_c: yeah
mod6: ok. good deal.
mike_c: i mean, i used your perl script
mike_c: and it looks like they are there
mod6: that should be fine. there was a fella in here about a week ago with the same problem as you're having/
mod6: we never did resolve what it was. and strangely, i've never seen it before. im perplexed.
mike_c: well, we will hopefully soon see if gcc4 works. then there is a culprit.
mod6: ultimately we determined it to be some type of environment issue.
mod6: sure, hopefully.
asciilifeform: the buildroot (aka 'rotor') thing is a dour wartime expedient, in case anyone forgot -- if we had a musltronic linux, or a bsd (i.e. non-glibc os) it would be unnecessary
mike_c: gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.7.4-3ubuntu12) 4.7.4 << will try
mod6: alright.
phf: erll, quite obviously for the makefile to work you have to have a file "toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc" relative to where you're calling "make" from
mod6: if he follows the directions exactly, shouldn't be an issue.
trinque: phf: read makefile.unix
trinque: that's the one that originally shipped with the thing, still there
phf: trinque: possibly my thing is not pressing correctly, i don't see it here http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/
trinque: http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/src/makefile.unix << satoshi downcased it for reasons
phf: aaah
phf: but i don't think that's the one he's using, if he's building with rotor.. that whole new build infrastructure seems to exist apart.
phf: there's this whole dispatch mechanism, http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/build/Makefile#L35 but it exists in it's own ./build/ folder
trinque: correct, meant to say that if he wanted to skip all that, could by going there. I may have misunderstood.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698656 << in re ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 02:53 phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by
phf: yeah, ty
phf: for extra lulz if you call "make" from src you're going to run rotor build, but if you want to run "legacy" build system you do make -f makefile.unix
mike_c: this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl
mod6: any luck?
mircea_popescu: mod6 at edge of seat over there...
mod6: this is driving me crazy aha.
mike_c: i don't want it to jinx it. not done yet. but it seems to be working much better.
mod6: and there's no way, apparently, to solve this for everyone until bitcoinos/cuntos is a thing.
phf: mike_c: does this exist /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc ?
mod6: phf: <+mike_c> this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl
mod6: oh -gcc
phf: ...
mike_c: yeah, what I pasted.
mike_c: no -gcc
mod6: for the record, i don't have that in my builds either, ignore that mike_c ☟︎
mod6: proceed.
mod6: if this doesn't work, i'll just help you step-by-step myself. no worries.
phf: wtf.
phf: mod6: it's your own makefile, it does readlink for that path. you can't not have it in yoru build
mod6: have you ever built the new way phf?
mircea_popescu: ftr, my most recent mod6 recipe buiild is ~week old, went without issue.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-taking-of-pelham-123-x2/ << Trilema - The Taking of Pelham 123 x2
mike_c: half an hour later, failed. that's disappointing. but it did a lot more.
mod6: ok. can you paste the error. i'll help you now if you have time, or we can try tomorrow (whenever) you have more.
mike_c: ./toolchain/usr/include/ncurses -O2 -I/var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/buildroot-2015.05/output/../../toolchain/usr/include --param max-inline-insns-single=1200 -fPIC -c ../ncurses/lib_gen.c -o ../obj_s/lib_gen.o
mike_c: _22483.c:835:2: error: expected â before ât
mod6: ah, yeah.
mod6: sec.
mike_c: but this did tons more. I'm going to go ahead and say gcc5 is no good for this (at least on out-of-the-box ubuntu)
mod6: yeah. it doesn't work with gcc5. this looks like the ncurses bug.
mod6: do you have rsync installed?
mike_c: rsync version 3.1.1 protocol version 31
mod6: ok
mod6: this bug seems to pop up with gcc5 iirc.
mod6: are you certain that gcc5 is vanquished from your sys?
mike_c: no
mike_c: only that /usr/bin/gcc is 4.7
mike_c: apt remove gcc-5 << ran successfully. i'll try again
mod6: so this is the issue (from some bugtracker) https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18301
mod6: try 'purge' too if you need, consult man page for 'apt' if required.
mod6: let me know before you try to rebuild, i'd like to walk you through flushing the tubs.
mod6: *tubes
mike_c: apt autoremove < executed.
mod6: i think you can check in /etc/alternatives or whatever, to ensure there are no links or nothing to gcc5.
mod6: you must smite it :]
mike_c: it's gone
mod6: ok awesome.
mike_c: nothing in alternatives or usr/bin
mod6: so now, let's back up your /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps directory.
mod6: copy /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps/*.asc to some other holding tank and let me know when ready.
mike_c: cp -R deps/ ~
mod6: ok.
mod6: now, `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin ; make clean`
mike_c: ugh. that's a 45 minute penalty..
mike_c: any use in trying incremental before that?
mod6: you can try, but it may not help. i'd suggest starting clean from a failed build.
mike_c: ok
mike_c: cleaned
mod6: we can pick this up later if you'd rather too. no worries.
mike_c: should i just make ONLINE=1 again?
mod6: ok, next: `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps ; cp ~/*.asc .` -- hopefully, in your ~ you only have .asc deeds, and not, say, other stuff...
mike_c: there's a bunch of stuff in there. I'll just grab the .asc though.
mod6: yeah, we just need the deeds.
mod6: not the extracted stuff or anything else.
mike_c: after the clean, still Makefile in deps
mike_c: expected?
mod6: yup.
mike_c: k
mod6: there should be a Manifest.sha512 in tehre too.
mike_c: done
mike_c: yeah
mod6: ok
mod6: now `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin ; make`
mike_c: including ncurses-5.9.tar.gz.asc
mod6: ok, that's correct.
mike_c: off and running. will update.
mod6: thanks Mike.
mike_c: certainly, thanks for the help!
mod6: np
mike_c: ah, failed again, but this time in helpful manner
mod6: jeeze. ok.
mike_c: no, it's good. see, gcc-5 was cleansed, but not cpp-5
mod6: ahh. alrighty.
mike_c: so now I burn this server to the ground and start over. ☟︎
mod6: heh, ok, sorry for the pain.
mike_c: no, it's good. lesson learned, RTFM and use v4
mod6: ok, well feel free to reach out to me when you're ready to try again, even if not today. i'll be here.
mod6: ubuntu and it's hanging chads, i know the pain.
mike_c: hehe.
mike_c: gah. well, that's it for tonight.. now it *is* looking for that:
mike_c: CC =/var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc
mike_c: and it's not there.
mike_c: try again tomorrow.
mod6: !~later tell mike_c hmm, ok thanks, we'll work through it.
jhvh1: mod6: The operation succeeded.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5BEFD0E92BFE1675D28A97B03E2B8EC76840F1CD640FAC1CC06EA3CFD3F75147 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1600...6519 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (4422.ovz-ssd8.hc.ru. RU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5BEFD0E92BFE1675D28A97B03E2B8EC76840F1CD640FAC1CC06EA3CFD3F75147 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1641...9043 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (4422.ovz-ssd8.hc.ru. RU)
BingoBoingo: !~later tell cazalla tyvm, but stahp trying to do the email thing. Textpast and !~later tell like a normal person. Email doesn't work better than 60% reliable anymore.
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/08/google-godaddy-and-coinbase-go-political-kill-accounts-for-conservative-action-and-advocacy/ << Qntra - Google, Godaddy, And CoinBase Go Political – Kill Accounts For Conservative Action And Advocacy
mircea_popescu: use coinbase, derp about bitcoin. then i'm supposed to distinguish these yokels from any other yokels because why the fuck, their mommy dropped them on their head in a very special way or something ?
mircea_popescu: for the same money as confusing bitcoin and usglade i might confuse andrew anglin for michael moore.
mircea_popescu: hey, both have superhero style names, close enough.
BingoBoingo: Well, Monday it came out that the organizer of the Charlottesville rally was a Obama voter and BernieBro until a week after Trump was elected. They are fungible!
mircea_popescu: heh
BingoBoingo: Seriously though, the motherfuckers will do the whole "I r dissident" song and dance, playing into the USG cartoon image of Nazis. BUT they refuse to extricate themselves from Actual Spyops like Coinbase.
mircea_popescu: trufax.
mircea_popescu is very much unconvinced ANY usian "dissidents", "alt right", "nazi" or whatever else would last five minutes after costco cancels their cable subscription or w/e.
mircea_popescu: so...
mircea_popescu: now i'm re-reading alf's curation of naggum, and the last item there is...
mircea_popescu: "the only _important_ property of evils of the past is that they not be repeated in the future, in any way, shape, or form. by refusing to accept humor about past evils, you lend them an importance they do not deserve and which will ultimately destroy your _own_ future, while those of us who can distinguish what we learn from the lessons where we learn it, can hope to find a future that doesn’t need to have reruns of past e
mircea_popescu: vils with new names as the only difference just because some _morons_ can’t learn from the past."
mircea_popescu: the only problem with rthis view being that there's no such thing as "evils of the past". ☟︎
mircea_popescu: stalin is the mechanism whereby you turn a herd of dumbass hervbivores into a smaller, leaner, industrial nation. yes it comes right out of the peasants' famine duh. where the fuck is it going to come out of, outer space ? bacon meteors from the kuipier belt, nice and crispy by the time they land ?
BingoBoingo: Just evils of the "past expiration date" related to the Oldgendered
mircea_popescu: the "evils of the past" are by turns the scalpel, the chisel, the enema bag... the patient doesn't need the scalpel yet so it's evil of the past. then later needs it, no longer needs the enema, now THAT is evil of the past. on it goes.
BingoBoingo: 5 Cents to the Dollar!
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: and all this "learning" bullshit. you can spend the rest of your life at the new york public library, you'll never manage to "learn" yourself into this position whereby sticking your cock into whatever woman you choose won't produce a random kid come out nine months later.
mircea_popescu: so no, the need to beat, kill, maim, rape, the NEED to violence ain't going fucking away just because naggum gave himself hypermetropia.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing there to learn, in this sense. if you got a bunch of ideologically-coherent tards that are out of touch with reality, be them pantsuits in 2017 us or peasants in 1917 russia you bring out the biofermenters. there's nothing else, misalligned ideological coherence is === biofermenters. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: not even a matter of "avoidable", they're THE SAME THING.
BingoBoingo: And WTF is this German Nazi fixation USG stooges keep trying to sell through their COINTELPROs? What's wrong with Redneck Pride? (other than appealing to the market?)
mircea_popescu: i expect the probloem with "nazi" is cachet. so much hurr durr-ing has been invested into the whole "nazi=bad" that the "nazi=important" angle is bound to be used by some schmuck trying to "make it up there fast". ☟︎
mircea_popescu: this is the problem with advertising, it doesn't matter what you say at all, just that you say it lots.
mircea_popescu: advertising "hitler is bad" can't be anything more or anything besides a global "hitler is important". ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Eh, it doesn't really have the "Identity Politics" click with rural palefaces that "ThugLyfe" has for the other side.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, usians are about as nazi as they're aztec. or hittite. srsly now, there's 0 relation.
mircea_popescu: let's for isntance compare the tired victorian-baroque that'd pass for "Grand Style" if you could get them to sit still enough to consider aesthetics to the very german art deco that actual nazism was all about.
mircea_popescu: really, there's no more connection between the two than between some illyrian woman raped on a riverbank two centuries ago and then given a pair of earrings and the boyfriend-girlfriend couple of today who made "passionate love" after finding the same pair of earrings and adorning her with them.
mircea_popescu: s/centuries/millennia.
mircea_popescu: in illyrian illustrations, http://68.media.tumblr.com/0f3fd0328cf0edc682e7b7ad485fdeb6/tumblr_o3g0kjafMt1uhih7ho1_500.gif
mircea_popescu firmly believes that "mortuary homes" or however you call the things are pretty much the definitive illustriation of north american native taste. there's square miles of the things somewhere in mass, totally worth a field trip.
BingoBoingo: Right. Hence the USG cartoon pencil used by sanctioned stooges. There's always more mortuary brass. Still for the actually deciding to be dissident there's a little bit of identity to hook into http://qntra.net/2017/07/us-entertainer-kid-rock-takes-aim-at-pantsuit-senators-job/
mircea_popescu: the problem is that there doesn't seem any genuine desire to exist.
mircea_popescu: teh original nazis were all about will-to-live and so on. usians want to eat, and to not hurt. there's snails with stronger libidos, and a people happy to build mcmansions privately and the brutalist abominations publicly can't possibly have any serious investment in ontology.
BingoBoingo: Well, it's "white trash" identity and NOT nazi for a reason
mircea_popescu: i guess,\
BingoBoingo: Pointedly NOT great, but... can't extinguish all the refus
BingoBoingo: *refuse
mircea_popescu: unless, of course, stalin shows up.
BingoBoingo: AHA, A stalin need plenty of fuel to burn
BingoBoingo: Trump.S.S.R.
mircea_popescu: heh
shinohai: Good morning, #trilema. This is a reminder that all sluts should have their annual asshole sounding performed: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHUIkTwXUAQnj4Q.jpg ☟︎
shinohai: !!up r0nin-
deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F1ED5F9D4B2AF299C23329206CB58D4C01D46AB6B49CE687D609BE1E707B0745 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2974...8743 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown EG)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4CA047A1DC3B4DD0A2254C9274AB5B4A4B5AECD404AE95EEEE0DE227113F35E1 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2974...8743 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (840.rt-barnaul-02.dianet.ru. RU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E17BC3E38DABD1C91A27D226FC57B2ACFEB88E913F4D218985717FDD514FB934 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2974...8743 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (static.vnpt.vn. VN 64)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F1ED5F9D4B2AF299C23329206CB58D4C01D46AB6B49CE687D609BE1E707B0745 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 3106...8249 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown EG)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698796 << i assumed he was speaking of socialisms as a whole ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:41 mircea_popescu: the only problem with rthis view being that there's no such thing as "evils of the past".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698804 << cheap and continuous hygiene is a fine alternative to grandiose and very expensive periodic exterminator calls ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:46 mircea_popescu: there's nothing there to learn, in this sense. if you got a bunch of ideologically-coherent tards that are out of touch with reality, be them pantsuits in 2017 us or peasants in 1917 russia you bring out the biofermenters. there's nothing else, misalligned ideological coherence is === biofermenters.
asciilifeform: ( consider, why was ru awash in moo-moos to begin with ? )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698807 << 'root password to the constitution' or what was it the '90s schmucks said ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:49 mircea_popescu: i expect the probloem with "nazi" is cachet. so much hurr durr-ing has been invested into the whole "nazi=bad" that the "nazi=important" angle is bound to be used by some schmuck trying to "make it up there fast".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698809 << hitler is entirely central to the post-1945 'world order' , far more so than he ever was to own attempted empire ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:49 mircea_popescu: advertising "hitler is bad" can't be anything more or anything besides a global "hitler is important".
mod6: mornihn
asciilifeform: heya mod6
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: do you have a link to the pantsuit dns-dekulakization of the 'alt right' people ? i can't be arsed to wade through the sewers to find the orig subj
asciilifeform: mod6: in other moar-readables, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/CyfVL/?raw=true ☟︎
asciilifeform: ^ similar mechanisms are moved to sit near one another, such that fewer 'brain cycles' are spent
asciilifeform: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4297.15, vol: 14581.58959408 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4295.0, vol: 38774.20214847 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4314.670506, vol: 16793.21610000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4310.0, vol: 8196.30357891 | Volume-weighted last average: 4301.18576939
asciilifeform: goxlag archipelag!
shinohai: !~echo [ticker --high --market btcc] [ticker --low --market btcc]
jhvh1: 4347.54 4044.258
mod6: asciilifeform: thanks for posting
asciilifeform: mod6: interestingly, this ver is ~slower~ ( by about 3% ) than the 'classical'
asciilifeform: and i've found gprof entirely useless in answering the q of why.
asciilifeform: in fact it is difficult to think of a more malignantly inept piece of everyday gcc userland, than gprof
mod6: hmm. so let's say, for instance, that you figure out how to make the 2^n version the same as the 64 width classic version -- performance-wise.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-26#1648106 << see also. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-26 16:05 phf: gprof interrupts the program every few ms and saves the backtrace, the whole family is called "sampling profilers" because it only knows of functions that it saw during the interrupt. functions with runtime < interrupt ms show up with wrong estimates
asciilifeform: mod6: it was supposed to be an automatic win, peformancewise
mod6: right. i recall.
mod6: my question is then; with regards to the tmsr-rsa rough-sketch spec, do we then entertain the idea of other key-lengths, no just 4096 as currently outlined? ☟︎
asciilifeform: mod6: i'm partial to 8192.
mod6: mircea_popescu ^
asciilifeform: imho using anything less than the longest rsa key you can physically get away with on the hardware of your time, is simply nonsensical -- like using smaller bullet on enemy than you strictly must
mod6: asciilifeform: ok. just was more curious than anything if we're still flexible here.
asciilifeform: ( recall the 5.56mm thread )
asciilifeform: mod6: i have no intention of introducing magicnumberism .
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698385 << see also. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 21:41 asciilifeform: and this also means as few 'magic numbers' as it is physically possible to get away with.
mod6: make sense. i personally kinda like the idea that a user can generate a key, that must be 2^n, that is all.
asciilifeform: we aren't even speaking of the key here !
mod6: so 4160 can work, etc.
asciilifeform: but of ffa register width
shinohai: But latest trilema states: " 2048 keys are too short. 8192 keys are too long. Keys of a length that's not a power of two are no good. RSA keys are 4096 bits and that's the end of the story."
mod6: ah, sorry to conflate, yes. width.
asciilifeform: it doesn't impact the type of key you can use !!
asciilifeform: you can generate a 6666-bit key. but you would need a 8192b invocation of ffa.
asciilifeform: ( and it will spend a somewhat larger portion of time pushing zeroes around )
mod6: sure
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: do you have a link to the pantsuit dns-dekulakization of the 'alt right' people ? i can't be arsed to wade through the sewers to find the orig subj << Here's one https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/shunned-by-godaddy-and-google-racist-daily-stormer-moves-to-russian-domain/
mod6 goes off to read the latest ffa update,
asciilifeform: at any rate, i'm not sold on the 2^n thing as of yet -- it doesn't seem to win at all, other than (possibly) on readability
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ty
asciilifeform: but in vintage hashfunction lulz, http://archive.is/UGtoi
BingoBoingo: From wonkypedia >> "Anglin's location is not known. An investigative article by The Huffington Post in November 2016 analyzed his social media and FBI sources, and concluded that he was living in Germany. Rumors have also placed him residing in Russia.[8] In July 2017 Anglin told CNN he was residing in Lagos, Nigeria.[12]"
asciilifeform: whossat
BingoBoingo: The Daily DNS Change guy
asciilifeform: yes but why to care
asciilifeform: if there were some ameritards that DIDN'T sum to 0, from waco to oregon to fuckingbmore to wherever -- i'd like to hear about this
BingoBoingo: Well, the "unknown location" bsns smells of stoogery
asciilifeform: so far 0
ben_vulpes: (http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2017-8-12#181354 << was me, btw, forgot to say until now)
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2017-08-12 20:28 ben_about: car mowdown very much in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-12#1697197
asciilifeform: so far all i see of subj is 'unknown derp , switched to tor, NOW HE'LL SHOW'EM ' etc
asciilifeform: snoar
asciilifeform: ohai ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: allo asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/eDUdv/?raw=true
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4D9C573E9AE0801766BB4D4FA2026110E40D17233636AD6DF205459A40F5ED4F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1449...1037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.globaltac.net. ES MD M)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4D9C573E9AE0801766BB4D4FA2026110E40D17233636AD6DF205459A40F5ED4F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1451...4207 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.globaltac.net. ES MD M)
asciilifeform: didjaknow!! ☟︎
asciilifeform: mod6: brute force ( comment lines & time ) profiling shows that the thing spends 30+% of its life inside W_Mul
asciilifeform: and most of the remainder, doing addition
mod6: hmm. ok.
BingoBoingo: tyvm ben_vulpes
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/08/alt-left-pantsuits-escalate-symbolically-without-risking-physical-confrontation/ << Qntra - Alt-Left Pantsuits Escalate Symbolically Without Risking Physical Confrontation
shinohai: BingoBoingo: s/hero's/heroes/
BingoBoingo: shinohai: ty, my bad
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2AFCEED97624DB4B3A06FB911AEDA43C889E5AE030D8A7D12B86C9495CB51E66 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1485...7549 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host-20.datariina.com. FI)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2AFCEED97624DB4B3A06FB911AEDA43C889E5AE030D8A7D12B86C9495CB51E66 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1564...7913 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host-20.datariina.com. FI)
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/149Er/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai congratulates ben_vulpes on his submission + the speed of wotpaste
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698905 << the orcs make very good pantsuits, their whole mental existence was predicated on empty words in the first place anyway. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 16:23 asciilifeform: didjaknow!!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698828 << that'd seem to be the wrong hole then ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 12:09 shinohai: Good morning, #trilema. This is a reminder that all sluts should have their annual asshole sounding performed: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHUIkTwXUAQnj4Q.jpg
shinohai wishes he had enough votes to get this renamed "Pantsuit Parkway" http://archive.is/u4yUb
mircea_popescu: !!up valica
deedbot: valica voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: who are you again valica ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698835 << no, i am certain he is specifically NOT speaking of socialism, but strictly of stalin. ie, "socialism would have worked if only" argument implied. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 14:22 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698796 << i assumed he was speaking of socialisms as a whole
mircea_popescu: !!up valica_
deedbot: valica_ voiced for 30 minutes.
valica_: i am a reader of trilema
mircea_popescu: that's it ?
valica_: read like 10 articles last night :)
mircea_popescu: anything good ?
valica_: yeah it's funny. do you have formal education in cryptography? just curious
mircea_popescu: what do you mean by formal ? "at college" sorta thing ?
valica_: yes
mircea_popescu: i don't.
mircea_popescu: my majors were anthropology and theory of knowledge.
mircea_popescu: what are you in teh regie for ? maths ?
valica_: maths?
valica_: nah. crypto
ben_vulpes: ty shinohai
mircea_popescu: they have a crypto programme ? who's doing it ?
valica_: school's over :) i am just reading on my own
valica_: i am studying security
valica_: https://ocw.cs.pub.ro/courses/sasc ☟︎
mircea_popescu: yes, but when school's not over, who ie what professor is the lead of this cryptography line ? what's it actually called ?
lobbes: http://qntra.net/2017/08/alt-left-pantsuits-escalate-symbolically-without-risking-physical-confrontation/ << lol. Durham NC also didn't wanna feel left out. But, instead of waiting for heavy machinery, buncha derps ripped it down with a rope while police watched. (Makes you wonder what these statues were made of) >> https://archive.is/mqxKh
valica_: Marios Choudary. Mostly Dan Boneh coursera material, with some side channel bonus courses
mircea_popescu: linked "our site" is password protected and doh.
trinque: I'm sure the jimmy buffet nazis will stop them, lobbes
mircea_popescu: valica_ i suppose this is a fine approach for orc unis, pay some local a few benjies to sit around with the chitlins while they read wikipedia. it took 20 years to progress from calling it an internet cafe to calling it a "lab"
mircea_popescu: valica_ is it all python ?
valica_: mostly yeah. some matlab (power analysis) and some C (openssl lib)
mircea_popescu: holy shit. so, https://ocw.cs.pub.ro/courses/sasc/laboratoare/09 (item 9/10) : "use openssl to decrypt this file".
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is ADVANCED about this windows-user-level intro to "which button to cluck at" ?
mircea_popescu: "your job is to fill in this merkle.py". holy mother of god. ☟︎
valica_: :) it's just some easy task to force you to type "man openssl"
mircea_popescu: formal education ain't what it used to be ;/
mircea_popescu: (for the lulz record : that coudary fellow actually has a cambridge phd.)
valica_: it's not perfect, but you can learn something
mircea_popescu: valica_ the problem is not that it's not perfect. it is not perfectible. what you learn through this approach is how to never learn crypto. ☟︎☟︎
valica_: how would you teach crypto then?
mircea_popescu 's unformal education in the field nevertheless does include the "suprareal" class at avram iancu highschool, which did include gavra's classes on number theory or participation at mme popoviciu's "itinerant seminary on functionals, approximations and convexity" and so on and so forth.
mircea_popescu: valica_ i would teach crypto as a graduate level item for the top of the class in math and kids from physics who test in. and nobody else.
mircea_popescu: specifically NOT anyone from "computer science".
valica_: we can talk more on this subject, privately sometime
mircea_popescu: we can't talk privately, i don't know you.
valica_: maybe in the future
valica_: math grads are so bad in bucharest (unibuc)
mircea_popescu: are they ?
valica_: damn
mircea_popescu: i suppose the item rolls back to "i wouldn't teach crypto, i'd have to fix undergrad first, get some kids who can do a fucking lim"
asciilifeform: btw:
asciilifeform: !#s boneh
a111: 15 results for "boneh", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=boneh
asciilifeform once met the d00d in saeculum . not impressed.
valica_: i know some math students interested in crypto, one of them worked in a call center
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698957 << this is THE Official philosophy of 'teaching crypto.' aka 'don't homebrew algos!111' ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:13 mircea_popescu: "your job is to fill in this merkle.py". holy mother of god.
asciilifeform: aka 'use what holy mother church of schneier put on your place, peon'
asciilifeform: *plate
mircea_popescu: valica_ feel free to link this convo to mr. choudary btw. tell him i have some things to say to him.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform python, the republic's preferred webdesign postprocessor ?
valica_: i can't. i don't know you
mircea_popescu: valica_ it's all public, you don't have to know me.
mircea_popescu: if he has enough sense to google his name he'll see it anyway.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: preferred duct tape and chewing gum brand!11
mircea_popescu: ikr.
mircea_popescu: basically they're mostly trying to use python to write makefiles in the manner naggum self-reportedly used lisp to write c.
mircea_popescu: how's flu diana_coman ?
asciilifeform: ^ this is done more often than anyone would like to admit
mircea_popescu: !!up diana_coman
deedbot: diana_coman voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform entertained by the 'we can talk in private' + 'i can't, i don't know you' combo
mircea_popescu: eh, he's trying to figure out the fence arrangement.
mircea_popescu: !!up valica_
deedbot: valica_ voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: ugh, flu is sort of running its whole course
valica_: do you have some course material proposal or private business? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: no, i want to discern whether the guy is a working mind accidentally stuck in the swamp of nonsense, or actually belongs there.
mircea_popescu: when i was about six or so, visiting some relatives who had a farm, i discovered a romanian bareneck (kind of chicken) chick drowning in the sty efflux. so i picked it out, and it was a pet for a year or so and then made a great soup. rooster, too. ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: this experience has visibly marked me.
lobbes: trinque, lol. "Thats it, we're sending you lot to Mengele's Margaritaville! Its got, yknow, swastica napkins and shit. "
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at "blondes prefer blacks" farms, http://68.media.tumblr.com/1a7dd6fdaecc66e186cada47a345ee7e/tumblr_o0gsz450rp1ubgc5jo1_1280.jpg ☟︎
ben_vulpes: looool
mircea_popescu: ehehehe
mircea_popescu: sorry, all the chicken talk got me thinking.
asciilifeform: !#s a pig like that
a111: 3 results for "a pig like that", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=a%20pig%20like%20that
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: hey does that one have a face?
mircea_popescu: actually face looks male dunnit ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: notrly
shinohai: Article in NY Times today says black person responsible for the creation of Jack Daniels, leaving me to wonder how long before it starts showing up in rap videos.
ben_vulpes: now i want fried chicken
mircea_popescu: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/366023/VIDEO-Two-legged-pig-learns-to-walk-using-only-his-front-limbs << the sauce for the pig like that.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: tru story.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698962 << asciilifeform once took a course almost exactly like the one described, quit in disgust mid way through ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:15 mircea_popescu: valica_ the problem is not that it's not perfect. it is not perfectible. what you learn through this approach is how to never learn crypto.
mircea_popescu: it's mindboggling, you know ? "run openssl" "and if i don't have it ?" "download it then!" "And if i'm on a deserted island ?" "well then you can't crypto!" "sa moara ma-ta ?"
asciilifeform: 'water comes from tap' 'food, from store' 'mains current, from socket' 'crypto, from ssl' etc
mircea_popescu: makes you wonder how openssl was written in the first place, seeing how they had no openssl at the time.
mircea_popescu: "you wouldn't download a car ?" "why not ?!?!" "because nobody made one" "oh... i guess gotta wait then."
asciilifeform: the q of 'what am i paying this idiot to mumble at me for, then, i already knew where mains socket is' never seems to come up in victim's head
mircea_popescu: problem is large section of pop doesn't know, i guess.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1699000 << fwiw ffa is nearly a self-contained crypto textbook in itself ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:28 valica_: do you have some course material proposal or private business?
mircea_popescu: "for the rabbi, whole world is torah. for the ewe however, whole world is grass."
asciilifeform: and i've thought about offering the commented code as dead tree for aficionados
mircea_popescu: offer it as blog article for now.
mircea_popescu: heck, ffa ~should~ probably be distributed as literate code.
asciilifeform: well it will live in the vgenesis, fg-style
mircea_popescu: let it be 2mb long for 200 loc.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698837 << in this, as in all cases. except periodic hygiene means taking woman's baby and crushing its skull against a rock now and again. which is to say : hygiene cost is personal, culling cost is socialized. guess what "individual" "agents" are going to choose ? (support material : ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 14:25 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698804 << cheap and continuous hygiene is a fine alternative to grandiose and very expensive periodic exterminator calls
mircea_popescu: damn... hey asciilifeform wtf was that article explaining the problem of socializing the costs of communication by never providing negative reinforcement ?
mircea_popescu: !!up valica
deedbot: valica voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: valica make yourself a pgp key if you don't have one an' register it with deedbot so i don't have to keep voicing oyu
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was at the very least in naggum
asciilifeform: the one re noobs iirc
mircea_popescu: trilema item i can't find ;/
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the pits, http://archive.is/DiM7l >> gavinists proclaim phorqwarz at block 494784
mircea_popescu: 18k away ?
mircea_popescu: that's like... 100 days sorta thing ? why exactly, have they decided the whole thing coming out of the previous attempts was the brief interval of "confusion" before being stomped and so trying to maximize that ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/honor-societies-vs-respect-societies-or-how-the-disaster-of-commons-sunk-the-western-world/ << found it.
asciilifeform: aah
mircea_popescu: so : yes, personal hygiene better than periodic holocaust. nevertheless, personal hygiene gotta be done personally whereas "niste copii au venit de la alt bloc" can do the holocausting.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698842 << aha. i expect stalin is rolling in grave and mao is looking dourly on. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 14:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698809 << hitler is entirely central to the post-1945 'world order' , far more so than he ever was to own attempted empire
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698863 << no. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 16:03 mod6: my question is then; with regards to the tmsr-rsa rough-sketch spec, do we then entertain the idea of other key-lengths, no just 4096 as currently outlined?
mircea_popescu: and specifically re 8192 : if you use that, all the crypto operations take twice as long. this is a certain cost.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> that's like... 100 days sorta thing ? why exactly, have they decided the whole thing coming out of the previous attempts was the brief interval of "confusion" before being stomped and so trying to maximize that ? << This is Barry Sillybert's stunt
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: parallelizes linearly, if one is impatient.
asciilifeform: ( specifically karatsuba's 3 prongs, are independent )
mircea_popescu: in exchange you get two things : you get 2x the size of message blocks (an advantage that is actually a disadvantage as now you're using 1kb udp packets which is i expect margionalkly worse than 2 512s) ; and you get a harder rsa (an advantage which is no sort of advantage, the 4096 rsa is already harder than the extant universe)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but still twice the work, however space-time negotiated.
asciilifeform: the udp thing is the 1 painful procrusting re 4096
mircea_popescu: the argument for not using 2048 is already very far fetched ("but what if someone makes a computer the size of our galaxy, WHAT THEN!)
mircea_popescu: but the argument for "4096 is not enough" can not be constructed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: isn't the only argument
mircea_popescu: lemme hear ?
asciilifeform: the other argument is impact of leaked bits.
mircea_popescu: if you leak bits fix the leak don't make the pipe thicker eh.
mircea_popescu: this is the wrong side of the exponential and i dun wanna eat it.
asciilifeform: conceivable that all rsa signatures leak fractions of a bit of key.
mircea_popescu: gpg conceivable, tmsr not conceivable.
asciilifeform: mno
asciilifeform: rsa per se.
mircea_popescu: signature = unpadded decryption.
asciilifeform: i'll rephrase -- no one has proven that publishing an rsa sig does not leak >0 info re key.
mircea_popescu: let us consider the proper signature scheme for a moment here ?
asciilifeform: ok..
mircea_popescu: so, you publish a number S, and a pubkey P. the verification consists of doing S ^ P.e and checking that it is equal to the hash of the proposed message mod P.N
mircea_popescu: check ?
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: ( though i will nitpick, and point out that the exponentiations are ~always~ done modularly , otherwise universe not bigenuff )
mircea_popescu: and so the proposition here is that WHILE rsa encryption does not leak bits, nevertheless rsa signing does ?
mircea_popescu: or are you proposing they both leak ?
asciilifeform: encryption?!
mircea_popescu: yes ?
mircea_popescu: they're the same damned op lol.
asciilifeform: how do you leak something that you don't have
asciilifeform: well no
asciilifeform: sig gives you a novel fact re the private exponent
mircea_popescu: not moreso than encryption does!
mircea_popescu: you know for a fact the encrypted text will be decryptable by the key, yes ?
mircea_popescu: so there, "a novel fact"
mircea_popescu: by encrypting "hola bro" to alf's key and getting $result, i now know a novel fact about alf's key!
asciilifeform: this output doesn't contain anything you did not already know on demand tho
mircea_popescu: yes, but my point here is that it is perhaps a defensible heuristic, but not defensible reasoning, to expect that just because p, q and p*q are coupled in that manner, any application to do with their coupling therefore informs you as to p or q.
asciilifeform: will note that there are other ( noncryptographic ) ways to leak bitz
mircea_popescu: certainly.
mircea_popescu: which is why we're putting all this crazy effort into proper rsa, ffa etc.
mircea_popescu: because expensive as it may be, it is WAY the fuck cheaper to make good pipe than to make thicker pipe to cover for all the leaks due to it being shitty pipe.
asciilifeform: good pipe is - sadly - still finitely good.
mircea_popescu: (honestly me thought the above is the tacit understanding at the base of the effort)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but good pipe is finitely good ^ 1 whereas tick pipe is expensive to the ^ n.
mircea_popescu: so if you're gonna plug, plug the right end of funnel.
asciilifeform: sorta why i put the effort into crafting a demonstrably bug-free constantimetron, first thing, rather than 'let's use gnu gmp with massive keyz'
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: but imho 'better to be rich and healthy, than poor and diseased'
mircea_popescu: so it being the fundamental reasoning, it's ok to have it explicit, but implicit or explicit it ain't gonna budge.
mircea_popescu: if you leak, fix leak.
asciilifeform: 1 problem is that it is not actually possible on stock x86pc to not leak power differential.
mircea_popescu: very possible, just don't throw away your old car batteries.
asciilifeform: ( adding 0+0 still uses slightly different current than maxint+maxint )
asciilifeform: other problem is that there is a small but finite probability of misfires in rsatron , such that would leak a bit.
asciilifeform: and little enough is know re reliability of current liquishit hardware, that will not propose to calculate it.
mircea_popescu: if you believe that, the correct solution is to change keys, not to make all the keys randomly thicker.
asciilifeform: not all keys are practical to change.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu of all people knows this.
mircea_popescu: but that is practical to the power ^1, whereas thicker keys expensive to ^ of n.
asciilifeform: ( consider, if changing keys were painless, we could use lamport's method )
mircea_popescu: if THAT isn't practical, then sure as fuck larger keys aren't practical.
asciilifeform: actually thicker keys are expensive to n*log(n)
mircea_popescu: understand asciilifeform : if you can't afford to buy a house in cash, this means YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE HOUSE. period. go sleep under the fucking bridge. and no, the fact that you ~could~ get a mortgage pay monthly DOES NOT!!!! make it now possible.
mircea_popescu: if you can't afford the house, you can even less afford the mortgage.
asciilifeform dun follow the analogy
mircea_popescu: which is what's contemplated here. "oh, changing keys (ie, buying house) is impractical. therefore, let us take out mortgage (pay a little evert time we use key), because it's less affordable but more accessible and the woman is too dumb to understand the difference and we're too castrated to not let her run the household)
asciilifeform: will point out that 8192+ only seems expensive because x86 is pessimized for it
mircea_popescu: no, it's expensive because, mathematically.
asciilifeform: we're scooping out a swimming pool with a teaspoon
asciilifeform: every time we rsa
mircea_popescu: the point remains : if what you are saying it's not practical to change keys (ie, that the per-op value add of key is less than the per-op value lost to suspected leak) THEN therefore what you are saying is "rsa is not worth using"
mircea_popescu: and in no case "rsa would be worth using with longer keys"
mircea_popescu: it would be... LESS worth using.
asciilifeform: mno. observation was re concrete cases where it is impractical to change a key. say, the parasitic radio item.
mircea_popescu: now, the above is an opinion you or anyone is welcome to hold, like any other opinion. i however don't hold it.
asciilifeform: or cemented pogo, etc.
asciilifeform: anythign that runs from rom.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they can be replaced like any other man made item.
asciilifeform: 'we have no irreplaceables here' -- stalin
mircea_popescu: ie, currently they don't exist. later on, they will. later still, they'll break. laterer yet they'll be replaced.
asciilifeform: it isn't untrue. but replacing worlds has cost.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as man-made transcendent.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, and that's the discussion here. if it's costly in excess of utility then the WHOLE thing is broken, and "fixes" in the sense contemplated merely further the breakage.
asciilifeform: it dun make the people who used 2-digit years in rom code, any less stoopid
asciilifeform: or the ones who put win95 in roms
mircea_popescu: this is debatable, but also not so related.
mircea_popescu: the "two digit year" thing is incomparable to the 4096 bit thing, because the 4096 bit thing is backed by "the whole universe, if it set to computing, still wouldn't EVER get even close to breaking a key".
asciilifeform: the cost of swapping out the nonsense will easily exceed that of, e.g., vietnam war
asciilifeform: ( recall the winxp battleship etc )
mircea_popescu: whereas 2 digit year is based on "we never heard of last century"
asciilifeform: i dunno why mircea_popescu is defending a figure that came from wholly arbitrary, rather than natural, constraint ( 'what is fast on a uniprocessor x86 box' == 4096 )
mircea_popescu: in any case, entirely incomparable items. yes, people do dumb shit all the time. but this doesn't mean people doing the right thing should do it once and wear a vest "to make sure".
asciilifeform: 4096 did not fall from sky, no. and 10y ago it 'equalled' 2048.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because it finds itself at a natural cutoff.
mircea_popescu: 4096 is the largest power of two which makes a key that is incomputable.
mircea_popescu: literally.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it never equalled 2048, no.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this argument is not false, but ignores noncryptoanalytic breaks
asciilifeform: incl. singlebit misfires.
mircea_popescu: but there shall never be a systematic solution for tactical failure.
asciilifeform: ( for reference : leaking 1/4 of your privkey is fatal; 10-20% -- you're breakable in polynomial time with large -- how large is unknown -- constant factor )
asciilifeform: unknow publicly, at any rate.
asciilifeform: *unknown
mircea_popescu: if ~you~, joe, leak bits, then you, joe, are responsible, and you, joe, pay for the fix. not the fucking cryptosystem.
asciilifeform: it isn't clear that there is a 'fix'.
mircea_popescu: then fuck you joe.
asciilifeform: in the sense of making the probability 0.
mircea_popescu: to quote that film i reviewed recently, "what do they want for their lousy 35 cents ? to live forever ?"
asciilifeform: that's where i was going, the fuckyou joe, that a 'hot' key may have a finite life.
asciilifeform: that is proportionate to length of key.
mircea_popescu: the way this conversation is going, we can't have children us two until we get the baby room properly furnished and the safest crypto op is one that never finishes. ☟︎
asciilifeform: i dun see it
asciilifeform: what i see is an elementary '7.62mm is inevitably better than 5.56, if you can afford either'
mircea_popescu: the man who lost 100 bits is the same man who will lose 200 bis.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is EXACTLY not the case. i am saying "7.62 is sufficient, because it will blow a hole through man, as result of interplay of actual universal constants" and you are saying "yes but 15.2 would be bigger".
asciilifeform: funnily aviation cannon designers had this exact convo!
asciilifeform: and ended up with 30mm and +
mircea_popescu: this is nonsense argument, and in fact they could "afford" both but they don't fucking use both. they use the correctly sized one based on human thickness and wetware bullet refraction properties.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nevertheless, there is an optimal bullet per target, and nobody makes the calibre twice as big. if not because their mind works enough to understand why not, then because the very sad experience of the nazis illustrates why the fuck not.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's argument is not even 'we must 8192!!1' but that 4096 is an accidental measure, like the volume of one particular bucket one particular child left on a beach
asciilifeform: on fpga even 32768-bit rsa is as snappy as you could want
asciilifeform: ( you use 32768b registers ! )
mircea_popescu: it is not accidental measure.
mircea_popescu: increasing tank size up to the 4096 bit tank pays off. increasing tank size past 4096 bit tank results in fucking panthers and whatnot.
asciilifeform: ain't as if people were born with 32bit cpu stuffed up their arses, neh
mircea_popescu: 4096 is the smallest power of two which produces a rsa key that is, factually, incomputable.
mircea_popescu: this is a sufficient reason to choose that value.
mircea_popescu: alternative candidates have nothing speaking for them.
asciilifeform: it is pretty strange imho to read mircea_popescu operating with the logic of poverty -- '100 horse suffices for standing at red light, why would anyone want a bugatti', '400 sq metres suffices to house a family' -- how is 4096b rsa any different ?
mircea_popescu: beleive it or not this is the logic i use all the time. what, you think rich people get a special science / engineering that works differently ?
mircea_popescu: the ustards tried, with their golden toilets. didn't work out for them. meanwhile irl i still pack the new girls two to an apartment, as per http://trilema.com/2010/doua-fete-argumentul-economic/
asciilifeform: if you were dropping the n00k on soros, would you settle for 'sufficient' 10ktonne, or opt at slightly moar cost for 100mtonne kuzkina mat' if available ?
mircea_popescu: sufficient.
asciilifeform: lolmiser
mircea_popescu: i am not in love with soros what can i tell you.
asciilifeform could perhaps qualify as a championship miser if he were richer
mircea_popescu: really, pointless wastage only impresses gypos.
asciilifeform: idea is not to impress, but to cauterize
mircea_popescu: "sufficient" means something.
mircea_popescu: and weaponry is to be used as per fucking manual and design, not obliquely wtf.
asciilifeform: the 'waste' argument would be cogent if we were suffering a drought of cpu cycles somehow.
asciilifeform: for what are they being saved by using undersized rsanuke ?
mircea_popescu: they're still not free.
asciilifeform: all the ones you dun use -- are free
mircea_popescu: and it's not undersized! it's simply not oversized.
asciilifeform: currently it isn't clear to asciilifeform what is the equiv. of the bullet weight ( or other mechanical cost ) here.
asciilifeform also entertained that this is almost the exact arg of mircea_popescu an' asciilifeform re mphf, originally, but with the sides reversed
asciilifeform: !!up r0nin-
deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.
r0nin-: hello mircea
mircea_popescu: link ?
mircea_popescu: r0nin- sup
r0nin-: https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/blood-money-digital-fools-gold-and-the-second-law-of-thermodynamics/
r0nin-: https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2016/09/19/cryptocurrency-as-cuck-finance-or-promises-made-by-pokemon/
mircea_popescu: o.O
r0nin-: would like your commenting
mircea_popescu: what's that ?
r0nin-: its a critique of crypto
mircea_popescu: did you write it ?
r0nin-: no
asciilifeform: can haz critique of arithmetic also ?
mircea_popescu: eh what the hell. lessee.
asciilifeform: reads like a typical propertard
r0nin-: https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/valuing-nothingness/
r0nin-: this explains bitcoins 'price'
asciilifeform: 'usg bond is better than btc because It Entitles You To'
asciilifeform: didjaknow, mircea_popescu
r0nin-: well he doesnt say that
r0nin-: a USG bond is just a time deposit
r0nin-: its fiat
mircea_popescu: r0nin- re the "entitle", he rehashes (without attribution) a point actually made on trilema back in... 2012. http://trilema.com/2012/the-reasons-why-bitcoin-securities-cant-be-regulated-by-the-sec/#selection-129.0-129.112
mircea_popescu: r0nin- now, why am i reading some douche who dares opine without having done any reading ?
r0nin-: bitcoin isnt a security
mircea_popescu: you're not doing too well here.
r0nin-: Furthermore, while it is true that Bitcoin may be regarded as an item of value by one or more people, this also is true of the in-game currency of each and every single one game ever released to this date and to be released for the conceivable future.
mircea_popescu: anyway. fellow should read the above linked item and the discussion of causes and purposes, and try again.
r0nin-: thats precisely true
r0nin-: bitcoin is the equivalent of game tokens
asciilifeform: r0nin-: 'also true of in-game currency' did your mother drop you as a baby? or feigning retardation ?
r0nin-: yes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he;s quoting :D
r0nin-: bitcoin is exactly the same thing as 'in-game currency'
mircea_popescu: r0nin- that end is not the problem. the problem is that usg has no better claim to ontology than a random wow guild.
r0nin-: well i agree, the SEC has zero say with bitcoin because it simply isnt a security
r0nin-: bitcoin is evidence of wasted computational power
asciilifeform: somehow a centralized spamola token that can be magicked into existence in arbirary quantity, is 'same' as bitcoin ?
mircea_popescu: this is generally the problem statists encounter : since their operative definition of government is ideal ("that thing we made") as opposed to real ("that thing which exists") they have trouble understanding how bitcoin can destroy governments while governments can't regulate bitcoin.
r0nin-: asciliform: fiat money IS a security
asciilifeform: i thought the last purveyor of this particular nonsense died in 2010 or so
r0nin-: the total quantity of all fiat money in existence is zero at all times
mircea_popescu: as poer that lulzy http://trilema.com/2017/because-thats-just-how-things-are/
r0nin-: its just a book keeping entry
r0nin-: someone has negative balance and someone has positive
r0nin-: the total is always zero
mircea_popescu: mmm.
mircea_popescu: what exactly is your experience / exposure level to fiat finance r0nin- ?
r0nin-: its high
mircea_popescu: be specific.
r0nin-: fiat money is just a unit of account for debts, whats so difficult to understand here? claiming you can 'run out of fiat' is like claiming you can run out of 'meters' to measure a room
mircea_popescu: r0nin- if you don't answer the questions you'll end up silenced.
r0nin-: mircea: im a bond trader
ave1: asciilifeform: are you still looking for a non-recursive Karatsuba? or should it wait until it is fully crystalized?
mircea_popescu: r0nin- alright. the claim isn't that the usg printing press will somehow malfunction.
mircea_popescu: but, for the exact some money, the confederacy also hasn't run out of confederate dollars.
r0nin-: the government needs to 'print'
asciilifeform: ave1: it can be made quite trivially from the one i have. but increases complexity and so i have not done this.
ave1: yes, I thought so, I did this and it seems to be the same speed too!
asciilifeform: ave1: it suffices from my pov that i can prove that the thing terminates in W-Threshold shots.
r0nin-: the private sector is a permanent net saver, the government supplies the 'asset' the private sector saves in
r0nin-: a USG bond is just a time deposit
mircea_popescu: r0nin- used to. now, bitcoin supplies that asset, and nobody can recall what the usg was.
asciilifeform: ave1: knuth has a number of examples of 'derecursivizations'
r0nin-: bitcoin doesnt supply the asset becuase bitcoin has no final demand
r0nin-: theres nobody obligated to accept it in payment of anything
mircea_popescu: of course it does. gotta pay your tmsr tax.
r0nin-: what tmsr tax?
mircea_popescu: heh. got reading to do dontcha!
r0nin-: send link
ave1: asciilifeform: Aha, should read Knuth more, I now did it by some thinking about it (and probably most stupid way)
ave1: asciiliform: BTW maybe I missed it but why do comba when L <= 8? does this come from speed testing?
asciilifeform: ave1: basic idea, pretty obvious, you throw param tuples into an array ( of known max length, proportional to # of invocations permitted ) and then iterate over that, using it in place of the familiar stack.
r0nin-: bitcoin is just a rehash of murray rothbards primitive view of money
mircea_popescu: r0nin- http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt
asciilifeform: ave1: indeed it does : on every piece of iron i have, and for every bitness, <= 8 turns out to be the inflection point.
mircea_popescu: r0nin- certainly not.
r0nin-: how isnt it? his ideal form of money was one that swelled in value from other peoples labor
ave1: I did it like so: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6dEzs/?raw=true, but as it is order more complex I would not recommend it
r0nin-: hence permanent deflation
mircea_popescu: labor doesn't enter into this discussion.
r0nin-: except in his day it was gold shekels
asciilifeform: ave1: woah, monstrous
asciilifeform: looks almost bigger than my whole orchestra put together
ave1: asciilifeform: yes it's terrible
ave1: asciilifeform: but it works, and for me was a good way to review karatsuba code
r0nin-: nice pre-amble. so we are advocating liberalism as the ideal ?
mircea_popescu: nope.
r0nin-: that is a liberal pre-amble
mircea_popescu: it is ?
r0nin-: of course
r0nin-: im being 'liberated' from all sovereign and becoming my own soverign
mircea_popescu: i don't see it. is it also a savarin preamble ?
asciilifeform: ave1: it doesn't hurt, to take the thing and play with it, every which way you can.
mircea_popescu: um.
mircea_popescu: i suppose, in that metaphorical sense.
r0nin-: We hold these truths to be self-evident : that no men nor women are created, but born ; that nothing ever is or could be equal to any other thing ; that each man and each woman are sovereign entities and the sole sovereign entities
r0nin-: welcome to 19th century liberalism
mircea_popescu: but, let it be noted that as i was eating a savarine writing it, it chiefly is a savarin preable.
ave1: asciilifeform: I would probably not have thought about the L > 8 test otherwise
asciilifeform: ave1: you might find http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698847 << this reformulation, interesting ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 15:24 asciilifeform: mod6: in other moar-readables, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/CyfVL/?raw=true
trinque: r0nin-: there is a distinction between a sovereign person and a sovereign people, eh?
r0nin-: The most pure form of anti-realist value is distilled and concentrated human subjective evaluation: value with no object. The only thing more pure than gold would be nothing at all, but of course even the most ardent anti-realist cannot escape from objective reality. Because he cannot store pure concentrate of human will in a vault, the anti-realist stores gold; because at least as an historical
r0nin-: matter gold is the substance that human beings have most irrationally desired, desired in a way most purely disconnected from objective reality.
r0nin-: replace gold with bitcoin
mircea_popescu: do you have a definition for "anti-realist" ?
r0nin-: yes
mircea_popescu: ah ok then! lol.
mircea_popescu: wtf is it ?
ave1: asciilifeform: thx, I saw it coming by, but was so deed in this try that I did not look yet, (looks nice)
r0nin-: https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/in-the-land-of-lies-every-day-is-opposite-day/
ave1: *deep
r0nin-: here you go
mircea_popescu: i suppose at this juncture i inquire whether you know what a definition is, and you say yes, and i ask you to define it and you do. go ahead.
asciilifeform: i smell aquinastardism
asciilifeform: dunno if my chemsuit is even rated for that
r0nin-: at the end of the day, bitcoin is a rehash of all the errors of gold except in digital format
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i hear a chorus of slavegirls going "omfg your patience, is inhuman"
asciilifeform: ( the linked d00d has a severe case )
mircea_popescu: r0nin- again, and for teh last time : if you don't answer the questions you will get silenced.
r0nin-: anti-realism is exactly what bitcoin is
mircea_popescu: the quesiton was "i suppose at this juncture i inquire whether you know what a definition is, and you say yes, and i ask you to define it and you do. go ahead."
mircea_popescu: it's not my fault we have a lengthy yearn to unroll here, so take it easy an' help out maybe we get to something useful.
asciilifeform: apparently 'realism' is to trade pieces of paper sanctified with the cuntjuice of the obummer sisters
r0nin-: asciiliforeform: again, those 'pieces of papers' are securities that entitle you to certain rights.
asciilifeform: lol!!
mircea_popescu: a well.
r0nin-: something which bitcoin cannot
mircea_popescu: !!down r0nin-
mircea_popescu: why is intellectual discipline so hard for people anyway.
asciilifeform: rights. didjaknow.
mircea_popescu jew-waves.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: catholitards have iron 'discipline' in their chosen glassbeadgame.
mircea_popescu: fucking utf or w/e you call the anime faces bullshit. onl;y actual gesture that's missing from written form, and that's the one they omit.
mircea_popescu: wtf i need a drawing of a smile ? why.
mircea_popescu: i thought rothbard was a catholic dood ?
mircea_popescu: (in the sense contemplated here)
asciilifeform: enough so that i barfed in attempting to read'im
mircea_popescu: well he's unreadable, but anyway, this guy seemed very incensed by him in the strangest of ways : as if what the dood made sense, and he disagreed.
asciilifeform: i suspect that i see the fundamental problem of these folx ( incl. gold collectors ) -- they never actually discovered protocol vs promise, 'protocol' (i.e. hard crypto guarantee ) is not a conceivable item for them ☟︎
asciilifeform: like the romans not knowing of zero
mircea_popescu: (as far as beat cop is concerned, there's a very marked difference between "this guy is a drunk!!" "uh... who is this woman ?" on one hand and "this guy is a drunk!" "oh yeah, well you're a whore!" on the other hand.)
asciilifeform: !!up ave1
deedbot: ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'd rather simply ignore the whole "promise" bs on the simple grounds of the cause/purpose dichotomy and be done with it.
asciilifeform: observation was that the folx in question only know of promise
mircea_popescu: possibly.
asciilifeform: they're stuck not merely pre-rsa, but in a sense pre-babylon ( where the clay seals already offered some mechanical guarantee )
mircea_popescu: i suppose up to a certai npoint a desire to manipulate the future is understandable in animals.
trinque: why'd a religious person want the responsibility of hard crypto anyway. he needs god himself to declare he exists; anything short of that, existential terror. what individual?
asciilifeform: possibly even stuck ~pre-trade~ -- witness the naked assertion that 'usd is king strictly because great inca promised to kill for it'
mircea_popescu: "so what if it does exactly the offices of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698962 ie it splices my brain away from reality into nonsense ?! my brain wasn't all that good in the first place, what's the loss." ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:15 mircea_popescu: valica_ the problem is not that it's not perfect. it is not perfectible. what you learn through this approach is how to never learn crypto.
mircea_popescu: hey, there's that bitcoin on todd's head or whoever's ?
mircea_popescu forgets.
asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu in steppes of ulan batur, 2030, horseman throws a sack at his yurt and speeds away in cloud of dust. inside : a head, and a pay addr scratched on forehead...
mircea_popescu: anyway, this zippy item is apparently the life work of some dedicated individual, who spent years toiling in obscurity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at the rate btc is going, 2030 seems way too far out.
asciilifeform: hey, digging up obscure derp from the depths of the refugee camps, could take time!111
asciilifeform: upstack : asciilifeform is still curious whether the assorted goldtards etc actually believe that btc is 'entirely like wowgold' and that some gavin somewhere 'could make moar if we wanted to' on demand
asciilifeform: or whether simply stuck playing pretend, to delay eating nagant when they sit and think
trinque: they'd all vote and the consensus rules would change. what do you think all the derping around that has been?
asciilifeform: vote free-ponies-for-everyone aha
ben_vulpes: everything must be free!
asciilifeform: rights!111
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect the gold people are very subjectively hurt by bitcoin doing what gold "Was supposed to do" and haet.
asciilifeform: that part was pretty obvious 5y ago
mircea_popescu: there's this defense strategy in welfare societies whereby one has among the vast arrays of self-granted options also the option to "disagree" with such things.
mircea_popescu: sort-of how there's old hookers out there who don't agree britney was never anything.
mircea_popescu: or, for the same money, elvis not dead folk.
asciilifeform: the q was how these folx bamboozled themselves into thinking that the obvious problems of physical brick of au , lending naturally to 'paperization', somehow 'did not count'
mircea_popescu: can take way over 5 years. in fact, this demo splice goes out with the demo itself, it's not heal-abl;e from the sony pov.
mircea_popescu: (there's two kinds of fandom rebellion, as far as the producers are concerned. fixable and unfixable. as the latter accumulate franchises die)
mircea_popescu: (hitler/swastica/etc are dead franchises in this sense. they can't advertise with it. though they'd love to.)
asciilifeform: it will be interesting to see how the goldtards etc react to realization that they are willingly powering a heat engine where , e.g., 1 btc is worth several years of their life, and organs
mircea_popescu: this realization can not occur.
asciilifeform: wainot?
mircea_popescu: whole fucking point of goldbuggery is derealization, in the vein of "great old west" cowboy-staring-at-horizon, "Better days" etc.
mircea_popescu: you ever seen who shot liberty vallance ?
asciilifeform: nope
mircea_popescu: a, great film. anyway, summary : dude (ie, inept manchild) and actual cowboy compete for cunt. the cunt is indescribably dumb (really, just mouthpiece for ideological choices of author), picks dude. ☟︎
asciilifeform brb, teatime
mircea_popescu: the cowboy does not sumarily execute the dude, chain the dumb cunt naked to a pole, whip her bloody and have her gang raped by the local mongrels, and so to spend the rest of her life.
mircea_popescu: no, instead he... becomes a gold bug.
mircea_popescu: withdraws in stamp collecting or w/e the fuck it is he does.
mircea_popescu: aka, derealization, the term of art.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1699345 << in retrospect this is likely the underpinning. there's no conception of "there are things that can be said, and there are things that can be done, and these are not the same things" uniting all the efforts of "anti"-bitcoin-because-statist and "anti"-bitcoin-because-i-dunno-what-money-is and "liberals" because niceness and free food! and so on. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 19:13 asciilifeform: i suspect that i see the fundamental problem of these folx ( incl. gold collectors ) -- they never actually discovered protocol vs promise, 'protocol' (i.e. hard crypto guarantee ) is not a conceivable item for them
mircea_popescu: "no sooner said than done" is the constant refrain of the folk tales ruinning through such goodfolk's heads at all times.
asciilifeform: the sufferers almost always turn up to labour under elaborately usgtronic delusions of, e.g., 'their' ( sitting Safely In Their cardboard house or usg.bank box , naturally ) 'gold' ( do they consider melting, or whatever other test ? ) 'belongs' ( until preet says so ) to them...
asciilifeform: whereas btc 'is just bits, and anyone can flip bits to be whatever'
asciilifeform: is the usual thread
asciilifeform: ( previously asciilifeform thought that the last 'just bits' idjit ate his '45 some time in 2012, but apparently not )
asciilifeform: the other observation is that the chukcha's reliance on his 'naked five senses' is absolute -- 'physical object' in his threadbare skullcase always trumps 'insisible' items, 'just number'
asciilifeform: ... and later he is very susprised when the beta rays cook his children alive
asciilifeform: *invisible
asciilifeform: but at the same time, all known types of chukcha are happy to bow before ~other~ invisibles, e.g. deer spirit, or 'natural right of property', or whatever idiocy their mother pounded into the head
asciilifeform: asciilifeform is not a sufficiently adroit chukchologist to square this circle...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is exactly the problem : the sort of orc who opposes pantsuit is 5-senses pashtun. and so always will be.
mircea_popescu: the notion of people smarter than required to make a good pantsuit not subscribing to the narrative is you know, inconceivable.
mircea_popescu: sorta like "kid smart enough to go to college -- isn't".
asciilifeform: 'whaddayamean osama had engineering phd and still picked the cave'
mircea_popescu: right. back to the same problem of abstracts. they've not just decided "government" is so and so deductively, leaving no room for inductive falsification. they've decided lots of other things on the same day, and they all go the same way : "the max of any variable is within our purview"
asciilifeform: 'whaddayamean you won't eat from the trough' 'not a swine? everybody's a swine, and you're an elitist swine' etc ☟︎
mircea_popescu: they can mentall create "maximal government" by thinking these words, "maximal government", and they stick, because shamanism and symbols coerce reals.
mircea_popescu: then they deduce "since maximal government is definitionally maximal government, therefore bitcoin can't unseat real government".
mircea_popescu: as they lack the ability to correctly recognize the imanence of transcendents and say "well, in order for maximal government to live up to the name it'll have to be bitcoin, rather than usg", they're "safe".
asciilifeform: didn't we have a case of 'if bitcoin worked, They Would Kill It' show up just the other week
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: see, cuz the simple mind requires fixed point. so it'll pick a fixed point, and name it something, and the hell with everything else.
mircea_popescu: and in this mental model, obviously "if bitcoin matter usg would regulate it".
mircea_popescu: mattered*
asciilifeform: recall the petrol from rocks thing ?
mircea_popescu: and besides -- the "college graduate" rice imbecile gave the solution in case anything blows up : "nobody could have predicted!"
asciilifeform was about to say 'how come this has not yet come to usglandia' but then remembered 'renewables'
mircea_popescu: which is exactly correct : nobody who decides to create a fixed point and call it government can possibly predict bitcoin wiping it. this follows from the definitions.
mircea_popescu: anyway, as best i can discern a major problem is that the people who WANT to do something about it are rarely the people who CAN.
asciilifeform: 'socialist nonsense will crash and burn on schedule, and They Will Call It Bad Luck' (uncle al)
mircea_popescu: take our r0nin- friend here. he's not actually smart enough to match his typing speed. he'd love to matter. but he doesn't have what with. wut du ?!
mircea_popescu: get really angry and break things!!!
asciilifeform: i dunno, he could go an' do whatever the other folx w/out theorems do
asciilifeform: weed his garden
asciilifeform: pull his cock
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite. besides, already happened. "evils of the past" ie stalin, not soviets.
asciilifeform: wax his chevvy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he has a theorem.
mircea_popescu: what he lacks is the other part.
mircea_popescu: you understand, for every fermat solver there's five trillion collectors, like http://trilema.com/2017/on-trisection-a-humble-contribution/
asciilifeform: i suspect that this type of 'bonsai kitten' is created by the ill-conceived half-education purveyors. as per mircea_popescu's talk at c3 re pediwikians
asciilifeform: trisectors thread aha
mircea_popescu: whores are not created by dope ; bodies are not created by guns ; idiots are not created by public schooling.
mircea_popescu: dope caters to whores ; guns cater to corpses ; public schooliong caters to idiots.
asciilifeform: i'm not convinced that all trisectors are organically tards
mircea_popescu: not a matter of tard. matter of, must be this tall to ride.
asciilifeform: even in this sense
mircea_popescu: people come in random tallnesses, theorems come in random cutoffs.
mircea_popescu: what's he to do if he loves a woman like malena but she needs a man now and he'll be a man in a decade ?
mircea_popescu: seen that film btw ?
asciilifeform: no but recently read the ro trilema re subj - and it is on the list
mircea_popescu: it is the definitive film on one of italian culture's principal obsessions. malizia is not bad in same vein, there are many.
mircea_popescu: the woman is ready to go. the boy wants her. but a boy is not useful and a man he is not yet.
mircea_popescu: it's refined to nuclear strength in that film.
mircea_popescu: and so -- has theorem to prove, hasn't yet grown the tool to prove them with. this is doom, pure and simple.
asciilifeform: there's 2 possible responses to 'i need to move mountain but haven't the muscle'
asciilifeform: one is to retreat into shamanisms
asciilifeform: other -- is to pump muscles
asciilifeform: i.e. discipline.
mircea_popescu: i think the problem is very correctly stated "she is 22 and ovulating and i am 13 and love her". no mountains, no muscles.
asciilifeform: there is no guarantee that pumper will live long enough. but certainly no one lives long enough for the shamanic spells to work either
mircea_popescu: it's not live long enough. is that the girl for you is not interesting and the girl that's interesting is not for you.
mircea_popescu: i told you, doom. in the greekest sense.
asciilifeform: i think nagant comes with 'the girl that's for you, is not interesting, the interesting - not for you' engraved on the barrel
asciilifeform: or sumthing.
mircea_popescu: yup.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-11#1430089 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-03-11 02:32 mircea_popescu: Pedalavo come se fuggissi, e in realta fuggivo, da lei, da quelle emozioni, da i sogni, da i ricordi, da tutto. E pensavo che dovevo dimenticare. Ero certo che sarei riuscito a dimenticare. Ma oggi che sono vecchio, che ho consumato banalmente la vita, talchè ho conosciuto tante donne che m'hanno detto "ricordati di me" e io le ho scordate tutte, ancora oggi lei, l'unica che non ho mai dimenticato... Sutakora Sassa!
mircea_popescu: lol scam link. apparently there's an older correct version, 2015s vintage.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4309.98, vol: 12700.64127392 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4323.1, vol: 35168.48083258 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4333.345506, vol: 18021.89790000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4337.939, vol: 7744.71405705 | Volume-weighted last average: 4324.90530368
mircea_popescu: dear celestial mommy in charge of government and all things, we thank you for regulating this new pile of dollars into bitcoin's value. amen.
mircea_popescu: let's eat some brocoli and tell some dork we love her in gratitude!
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : iranis ready to back out of obama nuke deal ; and flying chinese drones over us carriers.
ben_vulpes: great again
ben_vulpes: great again
mircea_popescu: you will not repants us!
mod6 scrollsback
ben_vulpes: repant, repent, repatriate
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in white chicks cornhole, http://68.media.tumblr.com/4606f5ab1ef687f72a2e47665baa6fd7/tumblr_o2qyr20l271uys2bto1_400.gif
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-05#1694226 << lool I would pick the latter. So you have to type out some paths. Doesn't this fall under http://btcbase.org/log/2014-12-17#955319 ?? ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-05 19:13 asciilifeform: if i had to pick b/w not having indoor shitter and not having tab completion, i'd pick the former.
a111: Logged on 2014-12-17 04:11 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: can't speak for others, but my programming is 90+% read/think and 10% write, timewise
mircea_popescu: he never had to dig a latrine, or carry the 3kg shovel you need to cary to be able to dig a latrine. consequently experience cost of that branch = 0 ☟︎
mircea_popescu: he sometime once did have to type in a path and so the experience cost of that branch > 0.
mircea_popescu: as all the things we don't know about don't exist, the choice is a no brainer yes.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> dear celestial mommy in charge of government and all things, we thank you for regulating this new pile of dollars into bitcoin's value. amen. << :D
trinque has dug, and used
trinque: I'll just say "wasps" and let the imagination fill in the other aspects.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1699477 << gotta wonder how mircea_popescu arrived at this notion. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 23:34 mircea_popescu: he never had to dig a latrine, or carry the 3kg shovel you need to cary to be able to dig a latrine. consequently experience cost of that branch = 0
asciilifeform: but answer is , digging a hole for 2hrs is sweaty work, but it isn't a thorn in what would otherwise be a flow state, the way missing tab complete is.
asciilifeform: sorta how a kg of shit in your latrine is same as 1.1, but even 10g on your birthday cake is conspicuously sad.