mod6: <+r0nin-> no << heh, so much for that eh
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 23:33 mircea_popescu: dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one.
mike_c: train sucked, but dinner was good. I'll take it.
mircea_popescu: "It's all very simple, you sit in the embassy and dissideate"
mike_c: good god. I downloaded these patches one by one, but there's about a million seals.
mike_c: guess i need to grepcut this thing
phf: actually i've no idea what you're talking about, but considering "seals" i assumed it's trb
mike_c: oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo.
phf: there's also the mod6 method that builds the whole thing for you, but i haven't tried that since before i wrote own v presser..
mircea_popescu: phf it'd have been great for shrem, had he enough fucking sense to read his own name.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 16:23 shinohai: Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements"
mircea_popescu: sometimes a flood or something comes and raises it up again, then it's taken to dump again, sits there more...
mircea_popescu: there's spent beer cans from like 1972 sitting somewhere closer to manhattan than you are.
mircea_popescu: just... sitting there. screaming COORS! in the darkness.
mircea_popescu: if someone dug them up and shone a light on them, they'd scream it in full color.
mircea_popescu: so in other random lulz, i just built a pulse checker out of this ten cent girly hairpiece. it's about 20cm long, and basically a chinese plastic spiral with teeth. if you hold it up,. one hand on each edge, and prop your elbows against your thorax it vibrates with the pulse vehehery visibly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the fine synonym for epheb we were using at some point re the herdemocracy aparatchicks ? i'd like to revive it.
mod6: <+mike_c> oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo. << aha, the ONLINE version is certainly less work
mike_c: yes. not building yet, but closer.
mike_c: mod6 is gcc 4 necessary? like 5 is not expected to work?
mike_c: blech, i guess make is more likely culprit. it's calling "c ..." instead of "gcc ..."
phf: mike_c: i had it working with pretty much everything, gcc4, gcc5, clang/llvm. when i build manually i just use dependencies that whatever local package gives me, at which point make Just Works
mike_c: yeah, no luck yet. that's what i get for spinning up an ubuntu server out of laziness probably.
mod6: make sure to use gcc4, i've seen problems myself with gcc5
phf: ooh, you know what, looking at the latest v tree, it looks like the makefiles are modified in all kinds of buildroot specific ways!..
phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by
☟︎ phf: export CC=$(shell readlink -f toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc)
mod6: mike_c: did you get all of the vpatches, seals, and other things as described in the Howto?
mike_c: i mean, i used your perl script
mike_c: and it looks like they are there
mod6: that should be fine. there was a fella in here about a week ago with the same problem as you're having/
mod6: we never did resolve what it was. and strangely, i've never seen it before. im perplexed.
mike_c: well, we will hopefully soon see if gcc4 works. then there is a culprit.
mod6: ultimately we determined it to be some type of environment issue.
mike_c: gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.7.4-3ubuntu12) 4.7.4 << will try
phf: erll, quite obviously for the makefile to work you have to have a file "toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc" relative to where you're calling "make" from
mod6: if he follows the directions exactly, shouldn't be an issue.
trinque: that's the one that originally shipped with the thing, still there
phf: but i don't think that's the one he's using, if he's building with rotor.. that whole new build infrastructure seems to exist apart.
trinque: correct, meant to say that if he wanted to skip all that, could by going there. I may have misunderstood.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 02:53 phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by
phf: for extra lulz if you call "make" from src you're going to run rotor build, but if you want to run "legacy" build system you do make -f makefile.unix
mike_c: this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl
mod6: this is driving me crazy aha.
mike_c: i don't want it to jinx it. not done yet. but it seems to be working much better.
mod6: and there's no way, apparently, to solve this for everyone until bitcoinos/cuntos is a thing.
phf: mike_c: does this exist /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc ?
mod6: phf: <+mike_c> this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl
mod6: for the record, i don't have that in my builds either, ignore that mike_c
☟︎ mod6: if this doesn't work, i'll just help you step-by-step myself. no worries.
phf: mod6: it's your own makefile, it does readlink for that path. you can't not have it in yoru build
mod6: have you ever built the new way phf?
mircea_popescu: ftr, my most recent mod6 recipe buiild is ~week old, went without issue.
mike_c: half an hour later, failed. that's disappointing. but it did a lot more.
mod6: ok. can you paste the error. i'll help you now if you have time, or we can try tomorrow (whenever) you have more.
mike_c: ./toolchain/usr/include/ncurses -O2 -I/var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/buildroot-2015.05/output/../../toolchain/usr/include --param max-inline-insns-single=1200 -fPIC -c ../ncurses/lib_gen.c -o ../obj_s/lib_gen.o
mike_c: _22483.c:835:2: error: expected â before ât
mike_c: but this did tons more. I'm going to go ahead and say gcc5 is no good for this (at least on out-of-the-box ubuntu)
mod6: yeah. it doesn't work with gcc5. this looks like the ncurses bug.
mod6: do you have rsync installed?
mike_c: rsync version 3.1.1 protocol version 31
mod6: this bug seems to pop up with gcc5 iirc.
mod6: are you certain that gcc5 is vanquished from your sys?
mike_c: only that /usr/bin/gcc is 4.7
mike_c: apt remove gcc-5 << ran successfully. i'll try again
mod6: try 'purge' too if you need, consult man page for 'apt' if required.
mod6: let me know before you try to rebuild, i'd like to walk you through flushing the tubs.
mike_c: apt autoremove < executed.
mod6: i think you can check in /etc/alternatives or whatever, to ensure there are no links or nothing to gcc5.
mod6: you must smite it :]
mike_c: nothing in alternatives or usr/bin
mod6: so now, let's back up your /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps directory.
mod6: copy /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps/*.asc to some other holding tank and let me know when ready.
mod6: now, `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin ; make clean`
mike_c: ugh. that's a 45 minute penalty..
mike_c: any use in trying incremental before that?
mod6: you can try, but it may not help. i'd suggest starting clean from a failed build.
mod6: we can pick this up later if you'd rather too. no worries.
mike_c: should i just make ONLINE=1 again?
mod6: ok, next: `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps ; cp ~/*.asc .` -- hopefully, in your ~ you only have .asc deeds, and not, say, other stuff...
mike_c: there's a bunch of stuff in there. I'll just grab the .asc though.
mod6: yeah, we just need the deeds.
mod6: not the extracted stuff or anything else.
mike_c: after the clean, still Makefile in deps
mod6: there should be a Manifest.sha512 in tehre too.
mod6: now `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin ; make`
mike_c: including ncurses-5.9.tar.gz.asc
mod6: ok, that's correct.
mike_c: off and running. will update.
mike_c: certainly, thanks for the help!
mike_c: ah, failed again, but this time in helpful manner
mike_c: no, it's good. see, gcc-5 was cleansed, but not cpp-5
mike_c: so now I burn this server to the ground and start over.
☟︎ mod6: heh, ok, sorry for the pain.
mike_c: no, it's good. lesson learned, RTFM and use v4
mod6: ok, well feel free to reach out to me when you're ready to try again, even if not today. i'll be here.
mod6: ubuntu and it's hanging chads, i know the pain.
mike_c: gah. well, that's it for tonight.. now it *is* looking for that:
mike_c: CC =/var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc
mod6: !~later tell mike_c hmm, ok thanks, we'll work through it.
jhvh1: mod6: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: !~later tell cazalla tyvm, but stahp trying to do the email thing. Textpast and !~later tell like a normal person. Email doesn't work better than 60% reliable anymore.
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: use coinbase, derp about bitcoin. then i'm supposed to distinguish these yokels from any other yokels because why the fuck, their mommy dropped them on their head in a very special way or something ?
mircea_popescu: for the same money as confusing bitcoin and usglade i might confuse andrew anglin for michael moore.
BingoBoingo: Well, Monday it came out that the organizer of the Charlottesville rally was a Obama voter and BernieBro until a week after Trump was elected. They are fungible!
BingoBoingo: Seriously though, the motherfuckers will do the whole "I r dissident" song and dance, playing into the USG cartoon image of Nazis. BUT they refuse to extricate themselves from Actual Spyops like Coinbase.
mircea_popescu is very much unconvinced ANY usian "dissidents", "alt right", "nazi" or whatever else would last five minutes after costco cancels their cable subscription or w/e.
mircea_popescu: now i'm re-reading alf's curation of naggum, and the last item there is...
mircea_popescu: "the only _important_ property of evils of the past is that they not be repeated in the future, in any way, shape, or form. by refusing to accept humor about past evils, you lend them an importance they do not deserve and which will ultimately destroy your _own_ future, while those of us who can distinguish what we learn from the lessons where we learn it, can hope to find a future that doesn’t need to have reruns of past e
mircea_popescu: vils with new names as the only difference just because some _morons_ can’t learn from the past."
mircea_popescu: the only problem with rthis view being that there's no such thing as "evils of the past".
☟︎ mircea_popescu: stalin is the mechanism whereby you turn a herd of dumbass hervbivores into a smaller, leaner, industrial nation. yes it comes right out of the peasants' famine duh. where the fuck is it going to come out of, outer space ? bacon meteors from the kuipier belt, nice and crispy by the time they land ?
BingoBoingo: Just evils of the "past expiration date" related to the Oldgendered
mircea_popescu: the "evils of the past" are by turns the scalpel, the chisel, the enema bag... the patient doesn't need the scalpel yet so it's evil of the past. then later needs it, no longer needs the enema, now THAT is evil of the past. on it goes.
mircea_popescu: and all this "learning" bullshit. you can spend the rest of your life at the new york public library, you'll never manage to "learn" yourself into this position whereby sticking your cock into whatever woman you choose won't produce a random kid come out nine months later.
mircea_popescu: so no, the need to beat, kill, maim, rape, the NEED to violence ain't going fucking away just because naggum gave himself hypermetropia.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing there to learn, in this sense. if you got a bunch of ideologically-coherent tards that are out of touch with reality, be them pantsuits in 2017 us or peasants in 1917 russia you bring out the biofermenters. there's nothing else, misalligned ideological coherence is === biofermenters.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: not even a matter of "avoidable", they're THE SAME THING.
BingoBoingo: And WTF is this German Nazi fixation USG stooges keep trying to sell through their COINTELPROs? What's wrong with Redneck Pride? (other than appealing to the market?)
mircea_popescu: i expect the probloem with "nazi" is cachet. so much hurr durr-ing has been invested into the whole "nazi=bad" that the "nazi=important" angle is bound to be used by some schmuck trying to "make it up there fast".
☟︎ mircea_popescu: this is the problem with advertising, it doesn't matter what you say at all, just that you say it lots.
mircea_popescu: advertising "hitler is bad" can't be anything more or anything besides a global "hitler is important".
☟︎ BingoBoingo: Eh, it doesn't really have the "Identity Politics" click with rural palefaces that "ThugLyfe" has for the other side.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, usians are about as nazi as they're aztec. or hittite. srsly now, there's 0 relation.
mircea_popescu: let's for isntance compare the tired victorian-baroque that'd pass for "Grand Style" if you could get them to sit still enough to consider aesthetics to the very german art deco that actual nazism was all about.
mircea_popescu: really, there's no more connection between the two than between some illyrian woman raped on a riverbank two centuries ago and then given a pair of earrings and the boyfriend-girlfriend couple of today who made "passionate love" after finding the same pair of earrings and adorning her with them.
mircea_popescu firmly believes that "mortuary homes" or however you call the things are pretty much the definitive illustriation of north american native taste. there's square miles of the things somewhere in mass, totally worth a field trip.
mircea_popescu: the problem is that there doesn't seem any genuine desire to exist.
mircea_popescu: teh original nazis were all about will-to-live and so on. usians want to eat, and to not hurt. there's snails with stronger libidos, and a people happy to build mcmansions privately and the brutalist abominations publicly can't possibly have any serious investment in ontology.
BingoBoingo: Well, it's "white trash" identity and NOT nazi for a reason
BingoBoingo: Pointedly NOT great, but... can't extinguish all the refus
deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:41 mircea_popescu: the only problem with rthis view being that there's no such thing as "evils of the past".
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:46 mircea_popescu: there's nothing there to learn, in this sense. if you got a bunch of ideologically-coherent tards that are out of touch with reality, be them pantsuits in 2017 us or peasants in 1917 russia you bring out the biofermenters. there's nothing else, misalligned ideological coherence is === biofermenters.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:49 mircea_popescu: i expect the probloem with "nazi" is cachet. so much hurr durr-ing has been invested into the whole "nazi=bad" that the "nazi=important" angle is bound to be used by some schmuck trying to "make it up there fast".
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 07:49 mircea_popescu: advertising "hitler is bad" can't be anything more or anything besides a global "hitler is important".
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4297.15, vol: 14581.58959408 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4295.0, vol: 38774.20214847 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4314.670506, vol: 16793.21610000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4310.0, vol: 8196.30357891 | Volume-weighted last average: 4301.18576939
shinohai: !~echo [ticker --high --market btcc] [ticker --low --market btcc]
mod6: asciilifeform: thanks for posting
mod6: hmm. so let's say, for instance, that you figure out how to make the 2^n version the same as the 64 width classic version -- performance-wise.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-26 16:05 phf: gprof interrupts the program every few ms and saves the backtrace, the whole family is called "sampling profilers" because it only knows of functions that it saw during the interrupt. functions with runtime < interrupt ms show up with wrong estimates
mod6: my question is then; with regards to the tmsr-rsa rough-sketch spec, do we then entertain the idea of other key-lengths, no just 4096 as currently outlined?
☟︎ mod6: asciilifeform: ok. just was more curious than anything if we're still flexible here.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 21:41 asciilifeform: and this also means as few 'magic numbers' as it is physically possible to get away with.
mod6: make sense. i personally kinda like the idea that a user can generate a key, that must be 2^n, that is all.
mod6: so 4160 can work, etc.
shinohai: But latest trilema states: " 2048 keys are too short. 8192 keys are too long. Keys of a length that's not a power of two are no good. RSA keys are 4096 bits and that's the end of the story."
mod6: ah, sorry to conflate, yes. width.
mod6 goes off to read the latest ffa update,
BingoBoingo: From wonkypedia >> "Anglin's location is not known. An investigative article by The Huffington Post in November 2016 analyzed his social media and FBI sources, and concluded that he was living in Germany. Rumors have also placed him residing in Russia.[8] In July 2017 Anglin told CNN he was residing in Lagos, Nigeria.[12]"
BingoBoingo: Well, the "unknown location" bsns smells of stoogery
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai congratulates ben_vulpes on his submission + the speed of wotpaste
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 16:23 asciilifeform: didjaknow!!
deedbot: valica voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: valica_ voiced for 30 minutes.
valica_: read like 10 articles last night :)
valica_: yeah it's funny. do you have formal education in cryptography? just curious
mircea_popescu: what do you mean by formal ? "at college" sorta thing ?
valica_: school's over :) i am just reading on my own
mircea_popescu: yes, but when school's not over, who ie what professor is the lead of this cryptography line ? what's it actually called ?
valica_: Marios Choudary. Mostly Dan Boneh coursera material, with some side channel bonus courses
trinque: I'm sure the jimmy buffet nazis will stop them, lobbes
mircea_popescu: valica_ i suppose this is a fine approach for orc unis, pay some local a few benjies to sit around with the chitlins while they read wikipedia. it took 20 years to progress from calling it an internet cafe to calling it a "lab"
valica_: mostly yeah. some matlab (power analysis) and some C (openssl lib)
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is ADVANCED about this windows-user-level intro to "which button to cluck at" ?
valica_: :) it's just some easy task to force you to type "man openssl"
mircea_popescu: (for the lulz record : that coudary fellow actually has a cambridge phd.)
valica_: it's not perfect, but you can learn something
mircea_popescu: valica_ the problem is not that it's not perfect. it is not perfectible. what you learn through this approach is how to never learn crypto.
☟︎☟︎ valica_: how would you teach crypto then?
mircea_popescu 's unformal education in the field nevertheless does include the "suprareal" class at avram iancu highschool, which did include gavra's classes on number theory or participation at mme popoviciu's "itinerant seminary on functionals, approximations and convexity" and so on and so forth.
mircea_popescu: valica_ i would teach crypto as a graduate level item for the top of the class in math and kids from physics who test in. and nobody else.
valica_: we can talk more on this subject, privately sometime
valica_: math grads are so bad in bucharest (unibuc)
mircea_popescu: i suppose the item rolls back to "i wouldn't teach crypto, i'd have to fix undergrad first, get some kids who can do a fucking lim"
valica_: i know some math students interested in crypto, one of them worked in a call center
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:13 mircea_popescu: "your job is to fill in this merkle.py". holy mother of god.
mircea_popescu: valica_ feel free to link this convo to mr. choudary btw. tell him i have some things to say to him.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform python, the republic's preferred webdesign postprocessor ?
mircea_popescu: if he has enough sense to google his name he'll see it anyway.
mircea_popescu: basically they're mostly trying to use python to write makefiles in the manner naggum self-reportedly used lisp to write c.
deedbot: diana_coman voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: valica_ voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: ugh, flu is sort of running its whole course
valica_: do you have some course material proposal or private business?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: no, i want to discern whether the guy is a working mind accidentally stuck in the swamp of nonsense, or actually belongs there.
mircea_popescu: when i was about six or so, visiting some relatives who had a farm, i discovered a romanian bareneck (kind of chicken) chick drowning in the sty efflux. so i picked it out, and it was a pet for a year or so and then made a great soup. rooster, too.
☟︎☟︎ lobbes: trinque, lol. "Thats it, we're sending you lot to Mengele's Margaritaville! Its got, yknow, swastica napkins and shit. "
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: hey does that one have a face?
shinohai: Article in NY Times today says black person responsible for the creation of Jack Daniels, leaving me to wonder how long before it starts showing up in rap videos.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:15 mircea_popescu: valica_ the problem is not that it's not perfect. it is not perfectible. what you learn through this approach is how to never learn crypto.
mircea_popescu: it's mindboggling, you know ? "run openssl" "and if i don't have it ?" "download it then!" "And if i'm on a deserted island ?" "well then you can't crypto!" "sa moara ma-ta ?"
mircea_popescu: makes you wonder how openssl was written in the first place, seeing how they had no openssl at the time.
mircea_popescu: "you wouldn't download a car ?" "why not ?!?!" "because nobody made one" "oh... i guess gotta wait then."
mircea_popescu: problem is large section of pop doesn't know, i guess.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:28 valica_: do you have some course material proposal or private business?
mircea_popescu: "for the rabbi, whole world is torah. for the ewe however, whole world is grass."
mircea_popescu: heck, ffa ~should~ probably be distributed as literate code.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698837 << in this, as in all cases. except periodic hygiene means taking woman's baby and crushing its skull against a rock now and again. which is to say : hygiene cost is personal, culling cost is socialized. guess what "individual" "agents" are going to choose ? (support material :
☝︎ mircea_popescu: damn... hey asciilifeform wtf was that article explaining the problem of socializing the costs of communication by never providing negative reinforcement ?
deedbot: valica voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: valica make yourself a pgp key if you don't have one an' register it with deedbot so i don't have to keep voicing oyu
mircea_popescu: that's like... 100 days sorta thing ? why exactly, have they decided the whole thing coming out of the previous attempts was the brief interval of "confusion" before being stomped and so trying to maximize that ?
mircea_popescu: so : yes, personal hygiene better than periodic holocaust. nevertheless, personal hygiene gotta be done personally whereas "niste copii au venit de la alt bloc" can do the holocausting.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 16:03 mod6: my question is then; with regards to the tmsr-rsa rough-sketch spec, do we then entertain the idea of other key-lengths, no just 4096 as currently outlined?
mircea_popescu: and specifically re 8192 : if you use that, all the crypto operations take twice as long. this is a certain cost.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> that's like... 100 days sorta thing ? why exactly, have they decided the whole thing coming out of the previous attempts was the brief interval of "confusion" before being stomped and so trying to maximize that ? << This is Barry Sillybert's stunt
mircea_popescu: in exchange you get two things : you get 2x the size of message blocks (an advantage that is actually a disadvantage as now you're using 1kb udp packets which is i expect margionalkly worse than 2 512s) ; and you get a harder rsa (an advantage which is no sort of advantage, the 4096 rsa is already harder than the extant universe)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but still twice the work, however space-time negotiated.
mircea_popescu: the argument for not using 2048 is already very far fetched ("but what if someone makes a computer the size of our galaxy, WHAT THEN!)
mircea_popescu: but the argument for "4096 is not enough" can not be constructed.
mircea_popescu: if you leak bits fix the leak don't make the pipe thicker eh.
mircea_popescu: this is the wrong side of the exponential and i dun wanna eat it.
mircea_popescu: let us consider the proper signature scheme for a moment here ?
mircea_popescu: so, you publish a number S, and a pubkey P. the verification consists of doing S ^ P.e and checking that it is equal to the hash of the proposed message mod P.N
mircea_popescu: and so the proposition here is that WHILE rsa encryption does not leak bits, nevertheless rsa signing does ?
mircea_popescu: you know for a fact the encrypted text will be decryptable by the key, yes ?
mircea_popescu: by encrypting "hola bro" to alf's key and getting $result, i now know a novel fact about alf's key!
mircea_popescu: yes, but my point here is that it is perhaps a defensible heuristic, but not defensible reasoning, to expect that just because p, q and p*q are coupled in that manner, any application to do with their coupling therefore informs you as to p or q.
mircea_popescu: which is why we're putting all this crazy effort into proper rsa, ffa etc.
mircea_popescu: because expensive as it may be, it is WAY the fuck cheaper to make good pipe than to make thicker pipe to cover for all the leaks due to it being shitty pipe.
mircea_popescu: (honestly me thought the above is the tacit understanding at the base of the effort)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but good pipe is finitely good ^ 1 whereas tick pipe is expensive to the ^ n.
mircea_popescu: so if you're gonna plug, plug the right end of funnel.
mircea_popescu: so it being the fundamental reasoning, it's ok to have it explicit, but implicit or explicit it ain't gonna budge.
mircea_popescu: very possible, just don't throw away your old car batteries.
mircea_popescu: if you believe that, the correct solution is to change keys, not to make all the keys randomly thicker.
mircea_popescu: but that is practical to the power ^1, whereas thicker keys expensive to ^ of n.
mircea_popescu: if THAT isn't practical, then sure as fuck larger keys aren't practical.
mircea_popescu: understand asciilifeform : if you can't afford to buy a house in cash, this means YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE HOUSE. period. go sleep under the fucking bridge. and no, the fact that you ~could~ get a mortgage pay monthly DOES NOT!!!! make it now possible.
mircea_popescu: if you can't afford the house, you can even less afford the mortgage.
mircea_popescu: which is what's contemplated here. "oh, changing keys (ie, buying house) is impractical. therefore, let us take out mortgage (pay a little evert time we use key), because it's less affordable but more accessible and the woman is too dumb to understand the difference and we're too castrated to not let her run the household)
mircea_popescu: the point remains : if what you are saying it's not practical to change keys (ie, that the per-op value add of key is less than the per-op value lost to suspected leak) THEN therefore what you are saying is "rsa is not worth using"
mircea_popescu: and in no case "rsa would be worth using with longer keys"
mircea_popescu: now, the above is an opinion you or anyone is welcome to hold, like any other opinion. i however don't hold it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they can be replaced like any other man made item.
mircea_popescu: ie, currently they don't exist. later on, they will. later still, they'll break. laterer yet they'll be replaced.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, and that's the discussion here. if it's costly in excess of utility then the WHOLE thing is broken, and "fixes" in the sense contemplated merely further the breakage.
mircea_popescu: the "two digit year" thing is incomparable to the 4096 bit thing, because the 4096 bit thing is backed by "the whole universe, if it set to computing, still wouldn't EVER get even close to breaking a key".
mircea_popescu: whereas 2 digit year is based on "we never heard of last century"
mircea_popescu: in any case, entirely incomparable items. yes, people do dumb shit all the time. but this doesn't mean people doing the right thing should do it once and wear a vest "to make sure".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because it finds itself at a natural cutoff.
mircea_popescu: 4096 is the largest power of two which makes a key that is incomputable.
mircea_popescu: but there shall never be a systematic solution for tactical failure.
mircea_popescu: if ~you~, joe, leak bits, then you, joe, are responsible, and you, joe, pay for the fix. not the fucking cryptosystem.
mircea_popescu: to quote that film i reviewed recently, "what do they want for their lousy 35 cents ? to live forever ?"
mircea_popescu: the way this conversation is going, we can't have children us two until we get the baby room properly furnished and the safest crypto op is one that never finishes.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the man who lost 100 bits is the same man who will lose 200 bis.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is EXACTLY not the case. i am saying "7.62 is sufficient, because it will blow a hole through man, as result of interplay of actual universal constants" and you are saying "yes but 15.2 would be bigger".
mircea_popescu: this is nonsense argument, and in fact they could "afford" both but they don't fucking use both. they use the correctly sized one based on human thickness and wetware bullet refraction properties.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nevertheless, there is an optimal bullet per target, and nobody makes the calibre twice as big. if not because their mind works enough to understand why not, then because the very sad experience of the nazis illustrates why the fuck not.
mircea_popescu: increasing tank size up to the 4096 bit tank pays off. increasing tank size past 4096 bit tank results in fucking panthers and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: 4096 is the smallest power of two which produces a rsa key that is, factually, incomputable.
mircea_popescu: alternative candidates have nothing speaking for them.
mircea_popescu: beleive it or not this is the logic i use all the time. what, you think rich people get a special science / engineering that works differently ?
mircea_popescu: and weaponry is to be used as per fucking manual and design, not obliquely wtf.
deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.
r0nin-: would like your commenting
r0nin-: its a critique of crypto
r0nin-: this explains bitcoins 'price'
r0nin-: well he doesnt say that
r0nin-: a USG bond is just a time deposit
mircea_popescu: r0nin- now, why am i reading some douche who dares opine without having done any reading ?
r0nin-: bitcoin isnt a security
r0nin-: Furthermore, while it is true that Bitcoin may be regarded as an item of value by one or more people, this also is true of the in-game currency of each and every single one game ever released to this date and to be released for the conceivable future.
mircea_popescu: anyway. fellow should read the above linked item and the discussion of causes and purposes, and try again.
r0nin-: bitcoin is the equivalent of game tokens
r0nin-: bitcoin is exactly the same thing as 'in-game currency'
mircea_popescu: r0nin- that end is not the problem. the problem is that usg has no better claim to ontology than a random wow guild.
r0nin-: well i agree, the SEC has zero say with bitcoin because it simply isnt a security
r0nin-: bitcoin is evidence of wasted computational power
mircea_popescu: this is generally the problem statists encounter : since their operative definition of government is ideal ("that thing we made") as opposed to real ("that thing which exists") they have trouble understanding how bitcoin can destroy governments while governments can't regulate bitcoin.
r0nin-: asciliform: fiat money IS a security
r0nin-: the total quantity of all fiat money in existence is zero at all times
r0nin-: its just a book keeping entry
r0nin-: someone has negative balance and someone has positive
r0nin-: the total is always zero
mircea_popescu: what exactly is your experience / exposure level to fiat finance r0nin- ?
r0nin-: fiat money is just a unit of account for debts, whats so difficult to understand here? claiming you can 'run out of fiat' is like claiming you can run out of 'meters' to measure a room
mircea_popescu: r0nin- if you don't answer the questions you'll end up silenced.
r0nin-: mircea: im a bond trader
ave1: asciilifeform: are you still looking for a non-recursive Karatsuba? or should it wait until it is fully crystalized?
mircea_popescu: r0nin- alright. the claim isn't that the usg printing press will somehow malfunction.
mircea_popescu: but, for the exact some money, the confederacy also hasn't run out of confederate dollars.
r0nin-: the government needs to 'print'
ave1: yes, I thought so, I did this and it seems to be the same speed too!
r0nin-: the private sector is a permanent net saver, the government supplies the 'asset' the private sector saves in
r0nin-: a USG bond is just a time deposit
mircea_popescu: r0nin- used to. now, bitcoin supplies that asset, and nobody can recall what the usg was.
r0nin-: bitcoin doesnt supply the asset becuase bitcoin has no final demand
r0nin-: theres nobody obligated to accept it in payment of anything
ave1: asciilifeform: Aha, should read Knuth more, I now did it by some thinking about it (and probably most stupid way)
ave1: asciiliform: BTW maybe I missed it but why do comba when L <= 8? does this come from speed testing?
r0nin-: bitcoin is just a rehash of murray rothbards primitive view of money
r0nin-: how isnt it? his ideal form of money was one that swelled in value from other peoples labor
r0nin-: hence permanent deflation
r0nin-: except in his day it was gold shekels
ave1: asciilifeform: yes it's terrible
ave1: asciilifeform: but it works, and for me was a good way to review karatsuba code
r0nin-: nice pre-amble. so we are advocating liberalism as the ideal ?
r0nin-: that is a liberal pre-amble
r0nin-: im being 'liberated' from all sovereign and becoming my own soverign
r0nin-: We hold these truths to be self-evident : that no men nor women are created, but born ; that nothing ever is or could be equal to any other thing ; that each man and each woman are sovereign entities and the sole sovereign entities
r0nin-: welcome to 19th century liberalism
mircea_popescu: but, let it be noted that as i was eating a savarine writing it, it chiefly is a savarin preable.
ave1: asciilifeform: I would probably not have thought about the L > 8 test otherwise
trinque: r0nin-: there is a distinction between a sovereign person and a sovereign people, eh?
r0nin-: The most pure form of anti-realist value is distilled and concentrated human subjective evaluation: value with no object. The only thing more pure than gold would be nothing at all, but of course even the most ardent anti-realist cannot escape from objective reality. Because he cannot store pure concentrate of human will in a vault, the anti-realist stores gold; because at least as an historical
r0nin-: matter gold is the substance that human beings have most irrationally desired, desired in a way most purely disconnected from objective reality.
r0nin-: replace gold with bitcoin
ave1: asciilifeform: thx, I saw it coming by, but was so deed in this try that I did not look yet, (looks nice)
mircea_popescu: i suppose at this juncture i inquire whether you know what a definition is, and you say yes, and i ask you to define it and you do. go ahead.
r0nin-: at the end of the day, bitcoin is a rehash of all the errors of gold except in digital format
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i hear a chorus of slavegirls going "omfg your patience, is inhuman"
mircea_popescu: r0nin- again, and for teh last time : if you don't answer the questions you will get silenced.
r0nin-: anti-realism is exactly what bitcoin is
mircea_popescu: the quesiton was "i suppose at this juncture i inquire whether you know what a definition is, and you say yes, and i ask you to define it and you do. go ahead."
mircea_popescu: it's not my fault we have a lengthy yearn to unroll here, so take it easy an' help out maybe we get to something useful.
r0nin-: asciiliforeform: again, those 'pieces of papers' are securities that entitle you to certain rights.
r0nin-: something which bitcoin cannot
mircea_popescu: why is intellectual discipline so hard for people anyway.
mircea_popescu: fucking utf or w/e you call the anime faces bullshit. onl;y actual gesture that's missing from written form, and that's the one they omit.
mircea_popescu: well he's unreadable, but anyway, this guy seemed very incensed by him in the strangest of ways : as if what the dood made sense, and he disagreed.
mircea_popescu: (as far as beat cop is concerned, there's a very marked difference between "this guy is a drunk!!" "uh... who is this woman ?" on one hand and "this guy is a drunk!" "oh yeah, well you're a whore!" on the other hand.)
deedbot: ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'd rather simply ignore the whole "promise" bs on the simple grounds of the cause/purpose dichotomy and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: i suppose up to a certai npoint a desire to manipulate the future is understandable in animals.
trinque: why'd a religious person want the responsibility of hard crypto anyway. he needs god himself to declare he exists; anything short of that, existential terror. what individual?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 17:15 mircea_popescu: valica_ the problem is not that it's not perfect. it is not perfectible. what you learn through this approach is how to never learn crypto.
mircea_popescu: hey, there's that bitcoin on todd's head or whoever's ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, this zippy item is apparently the life work of some dedicated individual, who spent years toiling in obscurity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at the rate btc is going, 2030 seems way too far out.
trinque: they'd all vote and the consensus rules would change. what do you think all the derping around that has been?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect the gold people are very subjectively hurt by bitcoin doing what gold "Was supposed to do" and haet.
mircea_popescu: there's this defense strategy in welfare societies whereby one has among the vast arrays of self-granted options also the option to "disagree" with such things.
mircea_popescu: sort-of how there's old hookers out there who don't agree britney was never anything.
mircea_popescu: can take way over 5 years. in fact, this demo splice goes out with the demo itself, it's not heal-abl;e from the sony pov.
mircea_popescu: (there's two kinds of fandom rebellion, as far as the producers are concerned. fixable and unfixable. as the latter accumulate franchises die)
mircea_popescu: (hitler/swastica/etc are dead franchises in this sense. they can't advertise with it. though they'd love to.)
mircea_popescu: whole fucking point of goldbuggery is derealization, in the vein of "great old west" cowboy-staring-at-horizon, "Better days" etc.
mircea_popescu: a, great film. anyway, summary : dude (ie, inept manchild) and actual cowboy compete for cunt. the cunt is indescribably dumb (really, just mouthpiece for ideological choices of author), picks dude.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the cowboy does not sumarily execute the dude, chain the dumb cunt naked to a pole, whip her bloody and have her gang raped by the local mongrels, and so to spend the rest of her life.
mircea_popescu: withdraws in stamp collecting or w/e the fuck it is he does.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1699345 << in retrospect this is likely the underpinning. there's no conception of "there are things that can be said, and there are things that can be done, and these are not the same things" uniting all the efforts of "anti"-bitcoin-because-statist and "anti"-bitcoin-because-i-dunno-what-money-is and "liberals" because niceness and free food! and so on.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 19:13 asciilifeform: i suspect that i see the fundamental problem of these folx ( incl. gold collectors ) -- they never actually discovered protocol vs promise, 'protocol' (i.e. hard crypto guarantee ) is not a conceivable item for them
mircea_popescu: "no sooner said than done" is the constant refrain of the folk tales ruinning through such goodfolk's heads at all times.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is exactly the problem : the sort of orc who opposes pantsuit is 5-senses pashtun. and so always will be.
mircea_popescu: the notion of people smarter than required to make a good pantsuit not subscribing to the narrative is you know, inconceivable.
mircea_popescu: sorta like "kid smart enough to go to college -- isn't".
mircea_popescu: right. back to the same problem of abstracts. they've not just decided "government" is so and so deductively, leaving no room for inductive falsification. they've decided lots of other things on the same day, and they all go the same way : "the max of any variable is within our purview"
mircea_popescu: they can mentall create "maximal government" by thinking these words, "maximal government", and they stick, because shamanism and symbols coerce reals.
mircea_popescu: then they deduce "since maximal government is definitionally maximal government, therefore bitcoin can't unseat real government".
mircea_popescu: as they lack the ability to correctly recognize the imanence of transcendents and say "well, in order for maximal government to live up to the name it'll have to be bitcoin, rather than usg", they're "safe".
mircea_popescu: see, cuz the simple mind requires fixed point. so it'll pick a fixed point, and name it something, and the hell with everything else.
mircea_popescu: and in this mental model, obviously "if bitcoin matter usg would regulate it".
mircea_popescu: and besides -- the "college graduate" rice imbecile gave the solution in case anything blows up : "nobody could have predicted!"
mircea_popescu: which is exactly correct : nobody who decides to create a fixed point and call it government can possibly predict bitcoin wiping it. this follows from the definitions.
mircea_popescu: anyway, as best i can discern a major problem is that the people who WANT to do something about it are rarely the people who CAN.
mircea_popescu: take our r0nin- friend here. he's not actually smart enough to match his typing speed. he'd love to matter. but he doesn't have what with. wut du ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite. besides, already happened. "evils of the past" ie stalin, not soviets.
mircea_popescu: whores are not created by dope ; bodies are not created by guns ; idiots are not created by public schooling.
mircea_popescu: dope caters to whores ; guns cater to corpses ; public schooliong caters to idiots.
mircea_popescu: not a matter of tard. matter of, must be this tall to ride.
mircea_popescu: people come in random tallnesses, theorems come in random cutoffs.
mircea_popescu: what's he to do if he loves a woman like malena but she needs a man now and he'll be a man in a decade ?
mircea_popescu: it is the definitive film on one of italian culture's principal obsessions. malizia is not bad in same vein, there are many.
mircea_popescu: the woman is ready to go. the boy wants her. but a boy is not useful and a man he is not yet.
mircea_popescu: and so -- has theorem to prove, hasn't yet grown the tool to prove them with. this is doom, pure and simple.
mircea_popescu: i think the problem is very correctly stated "she is 22 and ovulating and i am 13 and love her". no mountains, no muscles.
mircea_popescu: it's not live long enough. is that the girl for you is not interesting and the girl that's interesting is not for you.
a111: Logged on 2016-03-11 02:32 mircea_popescu: Pedalavo come se fuggissi, e in realta fuggivo, da lei, da quelle emozioni, da i sogni, da i ricordi, da tutto. E pensavo che dovevo dimenticare. Ero certo che sarei riuscito a dimenticare. Ma oggi che sono vecchio, che ho consumato banalmente la vita, talchè ho conosciuto tante donne che m'hanno detto "ricordati di me" e io le ho scordate tutte, ancora oggi lei, l'unica che non ho mai dimenticato... Sutakora Sassa!
mircea_popescu: lol scam link. apparently there's an older correct version, 2015s vintage.
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4309.98, vol: 12700.64127392 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4323.1, vol: 35168.48083258 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4333.345506, vol: 18021.89790000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4337.939, vol: 7744.71405705 | Volume-weighted last average: 4324.90530368
mircea_popescu: dear celestial mommy in charge of government and all things, we thank you for regulating this new pile of dollars into bitcoin's value. amen.
mircea_popescu: let's eat some brocoli and tell some dork we love her in gratitude!
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : iranis ready to back out of obama nuke deal ; and flying chinese drones over us carriers.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-05 19:13 asciilifeform: if i had to pick b/w not having indoor shitter and not having tab completion, i'd pick the former.
a111: Logged on 2014-12-17 04:11 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: can't speak for others, but my programming is 90+% read/think and 10% write, timewise
mircea_popescu: he never had to dig a latrine, or carry the 3kg shovel you need to cary to be able to dig a latrine. consequently experience cost of that branch = 0
☟︎ mircea_popescu: he sometime once did have to type in a path and so the experience cost of that branch > 0.
mircea_popescu: as all the things we don't know about don't exist, the choice is a no brainer yes.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> dear celestial mommy in charge of government and all things, we thank you for regulating this new pile of dollars into bitcoin's value. amen. << :D
trinque: I'll just say "wasps" and let the imagination fill in the other aspects.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 23:34 mircea_popescu: he never had to dig a latrine, or carry the 3kg shovel you need to cary to be able to dig a latrine. consequently experience cost of that branch = 0