a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:22 mircea_popescu: 90% of my audible output was "your question can not be answered in that general form". tears were shed, of rage and frustration. towards the third day i recited from the molieben of st naggum, the part where he says c makes people lie, and there was THANK YOU! GOOD GOD!
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:29 mircea_popescu: "oh that's what those do." "yes." "but why." "nevermind"
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: what do you answer when they ask "what do {} do" ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:40 mircea_popescu: if the same archbishop inquires as to why i poured cement the way i did i can answer without ado.
trinque: misses the point entirely; the question is how to teach the thing
trinque: and when someone can be said to understand it
trinque: one moment "nobody can fit c machine in head" and the next "anyone can c puny human!1!1!!"
trinque: yes, one can memorize a mapping between some phenomena and their effects, and this does not amount to "understands computers"
trinque: I thought asciilifeform had a www on this
trinque: and incidentally, didn't jurov do something with eulora and lisp/scheme ?
trinque: oh sure, no argument here. but then go and rewrite a compatible gcc
mircea_popescu: and yes, they have. entertained whole flight with discussion of vehicle steering. where "vehicle" ( {bus, ship, submarine, airplane, ..., satellite}
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 17:45 asciilifeform: this 'works' is a pestilence and is largely why clueful greybeards from the meat world , e.g., mircea_popescu , unzip and piss on programmers simply for sport
mircea_popescu: wasn';t that supposed to be replaced with an inflatable matress or a scooba goggle or something ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 22:10 hanbot: <mircea_popescu> but i am well and truly at a loss, who owns it ? no idea. maybe lobbes ? i somehow du nthink it was mike_c- << i'm pretty sure it was his, yeah.
mircea_popescu: of course, he got half of the discussion of etymology of engineering from the older discussion ; it's true that in french it comes from ingenuity however in english it comes from engine. which was the fucking point, this slide.
BingoBoingo: And in African it derives from the man Petrus telling the boy David that building is skilled work as David plays gopher for Petrus's tools
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : <!-- Ticket #11289, IE bug fix: always pad the error page with enough characters such that it is greater than 512 bytes, even after gzip compression abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890aabbccddeeffgghhiijjkkllmmnnooppqqrrssttuuvvwwxxyyzz11223344556677889900abacbcbdcdcededfefegfgfhghgihihjijikjkjlklkmlmlnmnmononpopoqpqprqrqsrsrtstsubcbcdcdedefefgfabcadefbghicjkldmnoepqrfstugvwxhyz1i234j567k890laabmbccnddeoeffpg
mircea_popescu: ghqhiirjjksklltmmnunoovppqwqrrxsstytuuzvvw0wxx1yyz2z113223434455666777889890091abc2def3ghi4jkl5mno6pqr7stu8vwx9yz11aab2bcc3dd4ee5ff6gg7hh8ii9j0jk1kl2lmm3nnoo4p5pq6qrr7ss8tt9uuvv0wwx1x2yyzz13aba4cbcb5dcdc6dedfef8egf9gfh0ghg1ihi2hji3jik4jkj5lkl6kml7mln8mnm9ono -->
Framedragger: certainly nothing of huge import. some of those are definitely a bit snakeoil'y, but not completely useless. i don't know how much you care about e.g. browser fingerprinting. right now html5 canvas leaks badly, i.e. "The adversary simply renders WebGL, font, and named color data to a Canvas element, extracts the image buffer, and computes a hash of that image data. Subtle differences in the video card, font packs, and even font and graph
Framedragger: simple, high-entropy fingerprint of a computer. In fact, the hash of the rendered image can be used almost identically to a tracking cookie by the web server."
Framedragger: so turn off such on-by-default leakage (and other leakages for fingerprinting), etc.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you are aware firefox is dead for all practical purposes, yes ? in fact i don't know any browser that lost market share at its speed, except of course netscape back in the day.
mircea_popescu: which is in itself a very amusing commentary on the toils and travails of the jwz gang. they... rescued netscape. and it did... netscape.
Framedragger: i guess you meant conceptually dead, and with definite practically-dead event horizon in sight
mircea_popescu: Framedragger because who knows, but it is under 10%, a lesser opera by now.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger nah, it's been going on for 2-3 years at the least.
Framedragger: so suddenly the numbers of wide populace matter? :)
Framedragger: (fwiw sandboxing efforts look nice and more technically involved; question is how easy it'd be to apply work done there to other browsers and so on; if not, meh)
☟︎ mircea_popescu: for a browser ? come on. it's not good. the only thing it had going for it were a bunch of retards using it. now it doesn't even have that.
Framedragger: yeah, gossipd client != browser. market share matters hm.
Framedragger: (i at least check that my webpages look good on lynx/elinks)
mircea_popescu: i dunno how cool it is, but let me tell you it is very productive
Framedragger: i suppose you also avoid the 'why does a multibillion clock machine lag on key press omfg' fail as icing on the cake.
Framedragger: this one time, i was scriptifying cheap flight booking. was amazed how less-laggy the simulated/automated 'browsing experience' (website didn't like bots, needed to convince it by running part of actual browser) was (cf. manual clicking on airline's website). got depressed
mircea_popescu: the moment they start with "not like bots" you know they're imbeciles.
Framedragger: some airlines (such as ryanair) try to stuff the user with tons of shitty offers before reservation confirmation page. horribru UX. such m0netizzation $trategy. imbeciles indeed :/
mircea_popescu: it's not a strategy for anything than for the pernicious insanity of "marketing matters".
adlai: happy integer fiats since genesis, o chanl of the schemer's truth
adlai: today is a beautiful day, it hasn't rained in /hours/
adlai: mircea_popescu: nah, back in middle school mrs whatsit told me not to forget those because they help to end e sentence, yet mene hesn't even begen yet!
trinque: adlai: what is this, a gunzip exploit or something?
mircea_popescu: talk sensibly trinque ; gnuzip is made by foss, it has had millions of eyes on it. all bugs are shallow!
mircea_popescu: fucking idiots, "oh, in this very narrow sliver of experience that is our irrelevant if self-important life, x observation held so far, especially because he have no fucking clue as to statistics, logic, or anything else. THEREFORE IT IS A NATURAL LAW OF THE UNYVERSE!!!"
adlai: trinque: took me a moment but i lol'd
shinohai: ah mircea_popescu you refering to scotcoin or whatever it is
mircea_popescu: "The "college is a scam" train is one on which I'm all aboard, but that doesn't mean each individual professor has to be scamming students; there's no reason why he can't do a good job and teach his students something that they aren't going to get simply by reading the text. If a student can skip class and still ace the class, the kid is either very bright or the professor is utterly useless. Right? Either way, the kid's
mircea_popescu: wasting his money." quoth the endearigly naive mr ballas. except the counter to this is in disgrace, the novel, of course : when a teacher does finally, for incomprehensible reasons, try, the OTHER TEACHERS assemble a panel to try and con
mircea_popescu: actually -- to try and convice him to sign a statement beseaching all the other teachers never EVER to try.
jurov: S.QNTR distributed
mircea_popescu: yes, russian policy in middle east is pretty much centered in squashing the saudis.
trinque: lulzy, so US-istan is unique in its scam and plunder campaign for a few paragraphs, then "lets get the rest of the major powers to all plunder saudi together"
trinque: this guy's a fucking cartoonist
trinque: if we want to get out the real tin foil for a minute, somebody might suspect the "great powers" have been planning on how to restructure the middle east *together*
mircea_popescu: because they've never done this before, about 12 or so times since 1880 ; not that it EVER fucking worked , nor that the "great powers" that wanna be, and until the last boot steps on the last bureaucrat face will continue to pretend to be, are actually capable of learning or anything.
mircea_popescu: "you have to do this sort of thing!" "why ?" "because if you don't it might appear you don't exist" "but you do in fact not exist" "SHH!!!11"
mircea_popescu: the fucking odds of this ? bw.com and btc.com boundry, and it really doesn't look like there's more than 18 seconds delay. so btc.com checked the block 446460 and built on it and found a block within ~15 seconds ?
mircea_popescu: bw got what, like 3k blocks past 6 months. not much of a player.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the only good news on that front is that fees are consistently over 5% of the block reward.
mircea_popescu: but that's kinda the point. avoid specificity of diddling
mircea_popescu: all empire code must be <than x steps away from one common trunk.
mircea_popescu: that;s the entire fucking point of socialism. "gotta keep together".
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 13:50 Framedragger: (fwiw sandboxing efforts look nice and more technically involved; question is how easy it'd be to apply work done there to other browsers and so on; if not, meh)
mircea_popescu: dja know btw there's an entire subculture living off those ?
mircea_popescu: for later, have a proper example of wehat these metaphors mean.
mircea_popescu: graves do not speak, not by themselves, not for themselves.
mircea_popescu: the driver isn't "this is how we got the perfect woman" ; the driver is "and this is how separating one of these ugly argentine schmucks from her fambly and society goes"
mircea_popescu: the reason you are stuck with it is that apparently the soul resides in the gall bladder.
trinque: heh, I'll not link the shithub
trinque: but yes, appears to have accreted automake
mircea_popescu: in the same vein, i have now spent in excess of $300 buying no less than nine "pc sound systems" over the past 2 years. i have nfi why i decided to just buy one of the cheapo, two speaker things. and then replace it and so on.
mircea_popescu: the last pair died in the lulziest of ways : it's usb powered, and it will short the usb when the sound is loud enough, lose power, then come back a half second later.
mircea_popescu: another one, the transformer went, evidently, wire too thin and melted
mircea_popescu: each had a different story of sadness, and all together they could have made a small rocket. if only their materials weren't allocated by idiots, that is.
mircea_popescu: yes, but they you also hit the provider with five figure bill for it.
mircea_popescu: the problerm with "everything is for retail" version of "man is the measure of all things" huh.
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform idly wonders if prb is infested, yet, with automakeism << Monero is!
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> the other hypothesis that invites itself is the tlp/mp 'ceremonial object' one. the, e.g., static mat, was sold on a www with reviews, and not necessarily faux ones. many satisfied sheeples own various tools and NEVER USE, and they -- are quite happy! << Like your HDX hacksaw!!!
BingoBoingo: That's kinda harbour freight's schtick "You can say you now own X, but pls don't use!"
mircea_popescu: hey, the notion that people want to do things has given way to the reality that people want to look like doing, appear to be doing, but safely (ie, not doing).
mircea_popescu: the "tools" are kindergarten items because the people are kindergarten kids.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> one or two stuck screws, and the hex slot in it , becomes circular. << Probably not "stuck", just married with "blue loctite" proper tool to free is bit, breaker bar, and mallet
mircea_popescu: aha, there's nothing special about it. the "adult" item, how could this be.
trinque: gotta be a narrow, long pipe out there that'd do
BingoBoingo: You use adapters to take it down to size that eats bit
BingoBoingo: And hope there isn't too much slack to eat impact
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Worked to free last stubborn screws on laptop
mircea_popescu: the idea is grandiose, a lengthy telescope of adaptors used by a guy standing on a box on a chair on a desk on a stair on a rope,.
BingoBoingo: Anyways shouldn't take more than four adapters, 3 if you start with 1/4" drive bar
mircea_popescu: this should be a story, totally. man finds love of life, is glad, convinces her, discovers it dun fit, goes back through his hero's journey to get all the various helpers to help. finally he sticks it in her among the octopi, crabs, bat wings and other fit-makers
jhvh1: Last 13 lines bashed and pending publication
BingoBoingo: Also taller stack of octopussy likely required.
mircea_popescu: it is a point oft verified in history, that if howitzer fails to solve problem it was only because not enough caliber.
jurov right today attempted to switch door hinge on a new fridge, wore up a shitty screw, gave up :(
jurov: dunno if pyrotechnics would help
BingoBoingo: jurov: Drill out old screw and tap in new threads
mircea_popescu: jurov in practice, once you notice the screw is shedding, which should not ever happen ever, what you do is you put in one of those magnetic detachable screwdriver bits with cyanoacrylate. once it's cured you take the screw out and throw it away.
jurov: prolly next time when defrosting
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: or epoxy or "red loctite" depending on how much force is planned to be needed to free
mircea_popescu: for all the hatred of modern agriculture / plastics, this business beats the shit out of the 1980s method, cut the head and drill the screw.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> why would it need torsion strength ? << Some people likely try this too late and cyanoacrylate is a poor filler material
mircea_popescu: ah. that;s why i said, when you notice it ~starts~ shedding.
mircea_popescu: by the time you drilled a hole into the head with your screwdriver...
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 17:27 asciilifeform: i actually sat down to write a long and painfully pedantic piece about what i did, but gave up, let the diff speak for itself
davout: yeah, check it out i'm reading teh log
davout: still working on my take on cutting the wallet out of TRB
☟︎ davout: it is more painful than expectation
davout: well yes, indexing UTXOs by address seems expensive
davout: if you want to index every address
davout: and if you don't, well, you're back at "monitor subset of all addresses" which immediately reduces to "wallet"
ben_vulpes: holy fuq nearly lost a toe on the ride in it's so cold
ben_vulpes: davout: have you considered hammering a spigot in for "gimme utxo's relevant to this address"?
mod6: that's just like the listunspent thing that i backported.
davout: ben_vulpes: i'm listing it as an option
davout: downside of it is "node has to know which addresses to monitor, still has to keep clunk 'rescan' logic as well"
ben_vulpes: mod6: listunspent takes arbitrary addresses or just what's in the wallet already?
ben_vulpes: davout: i imagined this as a component of bear stone and skin knife transacting
a111: Logged on 2016-12-19 20:03 trinque: I'd have it run along indexing mine
mod6: ben_vulpes: addys in the wallet
trinque: isn't equivalent to "wallet"
trinque: done right, it'd be cracking the thing into many tools with clear purpose
davout: ben_vulpes: to take arbitrary addresses it needs an UTXOs indexed by addresses, which isn't cheap
ben_vulpes: davout: or to lean on the clunk, right?
davout: trinque: yeah, that's the kind of design i'd like to end up with
davout: ben_vulpes: i failed to parse
ben_vulpes: instead of maintaining whole 'utxo pool', rescan for specific addresses on demand, shit utxos for that addr onto disk.
trinque: asciilifeform: utxo index for arbitrary selected addresses (emphatically not for all addresses including one user just pulled from his ass), tx maker, tx signer, tx sender
trinque: my wanting to track an address balance may have nothing at all to do with *me* spending to/from that address
davout: ben_vulpes: sounds slow, although i confess i haven't actually experimented
davout: trinque asciilifeform tx-sender must be built-in node
ben_vulpes: davout: a full rescan of the blockchain takes ~12 hours on mod6's machine
mod6: it wasn't that long
trinque: davout: I agree with "RI must bitcoinate *completely*"
davout: ben_vulpes mod6 could probably be heavily parallelized too
mod6: iirc it was somewhere between 3-6 hours.
davout: trinque: but "must RI be a single binary?"
☟︎ trinque: asciilifeform: tx sender is just a "sendrawtxn" that eats the data from user. maybe he made the txn with other RPC calls, maybe got from elsewhere
ben_vulpes: davout: what if one thread finds a tx spent that another thread finds the unspent for
davout: ben_vulpes: if i namedrop 'map-reduce' does that appease you?
davout: i haven't thought about the rescanning approach much
trinque: davout: hard to say with current rats nest if things could be that cleanly separated ~starting from trb~
ben_vulpes: because "map-reduce" does not reduce to "here's how i'm going to solve specifically the case where thread n finds an unspent out and thread n+1 finds its spent and in the reducing phase i collate everything proper-like"
☟︎ davout: asciilifeform: nobody said it was cheap, maybe we end up finding out it's not really worth it
trinque goes to find the "cleave the network fiddling and block verifying parts of trb" thread
davout: ben_vulpes: when aggregating the outputs, nuke those for which a spent out is found? it sounds pretty trivial to me, am i missing something obvious?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 19:40 mircea_popescu: at the very least block digestion and peering must be cleaved in trb
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 15:33 asciilifeform: after slicing apart mempool-node from blockchain-node, building 'dioded node' becomes trivial exercise.
ben_vulpes: davout: you know maybe i need another cup of coffee
davout: guess the "how do we then ban peers that send garbage" has been brought up wrt the network/data validation cleavage
davout: ben_vulpes: what time is it in ben_vulpistan?
ben_vulpes: davout: "impossible without gossipd" according to asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: davout: dunno, "just biked into office after spending as much time with family as i wanted o'clock"?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: just trying to get the guy up to speed
ben_vulpes: i generally assume "everyone will clap" but rarely have that for which
trinque: I was going to say the same, does require gossipd
trinque: "don't talk to idiots" is a far broader problem than bitcoin
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 19:53 davout: trinque: but "must RI be a single binary?"
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 19:56 ben_vulpes: because "map-reduce" does not reduce to "here's how i'm going to solve specifically the case where thread n finds an unspent out and thread n+1 finds its spent and in the reducing phase i collate everything proper-like"
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 19:59 asciilifeform: trinque: it isn't , currently, clear to me that you can make this cut cleanly without hard-breaking with the traditional protocol.
mircea_popescu: it ~may~ be the case that some arbitrary level of cleanliness requires an entirely new universe. this, however, can never inhibit the brushing of toilets.
mircea_popescu: no such third was contemplated ; when discussing a proposal you are stuck, willy nilly, first understanding it and then referring it
mircea_popescu: you're not at liberty to discuss something else, in different terms.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 19:42 mircea_popescu: nope. blockchain part will get to it when it gets to it, and tell you. until then, peer part builds queues.
mircea_popescu: "i have heard this transaction" is of interest to b ; not of a. "this is a transaction from a block" is of interest to a.
mircea_popescu: yes, they're both "transactions" in the terms of the eventual datastruct they'll occupy. they aren't for that reason the same thing.
mircea_popescu: TRB to be split into two parts : TRB.B and TRB.N. Queues B.B B.T N.B to be created. TRB.N inherits the code to connect to peers. TRB.N reads blocks from peers, and puts them in N.B. TRB.N reads txn from peers and puts them in M.T. TRB.N does nothing else (with the possible exception of rate limiting for peers). TRB.B reads N.B and verifies the blocks. if the block is verified it is added to B.B and its component txn to B.T ;
mircea_popescu: otherwise it is discarded. B.T may be pruned (according to arbitrary address list, for instance). Rate limiting in TRB.N may be constructed to observe N.B items that fail to propagate to B.B and ban the originating peers.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: all three queues to be implemented as ring buffers of user specified size.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: M.T deliberately left unspecified, it is the equivalent of today's "mempool". perhaps should also be a ring buffer like the other 3.
mircea_popescu: in any case : TRB.N needs write access to N.B and M.T and read access to B.B ; TRB.B needs read access to N.B and write access to B.B and B.T. it may be a good idea to also give TRB.N read access to B.T but this should be operator-knob
mircea_popescu: this scheme among other things cheaply allows the "add arbitrary new address to wallet", just have utility that (separately) processes B.B and produces new set of B.T.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: but it is not required for B.T to be used only in this way or for this purpose. in principle there could be a whole pile of these, readily extended into whatever operator wants to do.
mircea_popescu: "this is my B.T1 of all txn with no fee, this is my B.T2 of all the payments to my X, this is my B.T3 of all txn over 5kb relayed by ip X"etc.
mircea_popescu: it seems certain B.B belongs on disk. it seems likely B.T also belongs on disk. it seems certain M.T belongs in memory. it seems likely N.B also belongs in memory.
mircea_popescu: in particular N.B should be "older overwrites newer" style ring buffer. of particular concern are situations where the buffer is set shorter than the longest reorg, in which case the node will wedge. TRB.N not accepting blocks with index lower than highest of B.B is for sure not feasible. "how many behind" should be an operator knob.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: (this knob is then in practice equivalent to the "checkpoints" discussed previously)
davout is getting lost in the variable names
mod6: i drew myself a diagram, helps.
mircea_popescu: N indicates networking, B indicates "blockhain", or homebase or whatever.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the great gain is that no two elements need/have write access to the same thing by this scheme. in point of fact one way to look at current trb/prb is to say that they have "write locks" on all the fucking time and deadlock.
mod6: indeed, synchronized code everywhere.
lobbes:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595456 << "First, and obviously, since the majority of the students are going to get an A, he just has to do just as well/horrifically as the average student, and if they're all writing about slavery with the enthusiasm of a photocopier then if he wants an A he better buckle down and learn the truly useful skill of masking the words of a Wikipedia page. "
☝︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a problem yeah. will however have to be bit, wtf else to do.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: lobbes this incidentally explaisn why wikipedia is such shit - it's ~only function is a sort of open-sourced cliffnotes, and people would much prefer it to be bland and stupidly written so the teacher in class doesn't feel too inclined to think the kids' lifted material isn't his. after all he added all the flavour words in there!
lobbes: That was a great read, thank you. Lined up exactly with my own anecdotal experiences. If I learned one thing in 'business school', it was how to properly bullshit. Only cost some 20k! Real learning didn't happen until after graduating (funnily enough, I also learned to drive -after- getting my license)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, one huge insert patch is still pretty dubious as far as paternity goes.
davout: but if it really needs a magical difftron, can it still be said the operator can see everything with naked eye?
lobbes: Re: wikipedia. I remember early on in grade school I was actually taught that wikipedia was shit. By the time I entered college this tune had changed. Now it all makes sense
mircea_popescu: davout the gordian knot is how to make it both unmagical and self-summarizing.
mircea_popescu: i suspect graph theory may have a solution for us, but it is not clear to me how.
BingoBoingo: lobbes: You had wikipedia in Grade School! Poor Child!
mircea_popescu: still, due to the fact that v allows attribution, the change can be digested over time.
mircea_popescu: still, the "frozen trb because networking" or "because badlt done block check" etc can't go on forever.
mircea_popescu: and what i pictured were 72 cubits high, translucent, ageless, nonmenstruating and deliver pregnancy to term within the day.
lobbes: BingoBoingo: aha. Yeah, I guess more towards high school. Luckily I was just old enough to still have been taught how to research using actual b00ks and/or libraries.
davout:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595836 <<< my image is more like: "trb is this thing from which more and more is removed, until only the radioactive code consisting in ball of tightly packed hot wires which we proceed to put in a little box in which epoxy is poured, and is only interacted with as some black box"
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 21:29 asciilifeform: though what i pictured is that trb can finally produce the motherfucking ~book~ and it will be possible to start rewrite...
davout: yet another obvious benefit of amputating the wallet, miner and everything that can pretty obviously done without
davout: but i also get the other point, a lot of that complexity becomes apparent once one actually goes ahead and pops the hood
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've been working on phf's recommendations of late
ben_vulpes: haven't made checkpoints configurable, so solipsist nodes won't even mine
☟︎ ben_vulpes: unless i misunderstand, the project is truly blocked on making checkpoints configurable.
davout: asciilifeform: i don't thing the argument that the block validation logic can be found in the block validation logic is tenuous
davout: make the miner a separate bin
☟︎ ben_vulpes: (fwiw i'm down to the last ghostly suggestion, which was to read in the hash as a bignum)
davout: asciilifeform: i think it would be hard to make the argument that a separate binary sitting aside the node could hurt in any way
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i misspeak, 'as an integer'
davout: the miner does require the transactions being mined to be valid, so there's that
davout: we might en up with a libbitcoinconsensus.a
davout: either way, imma head to bed, interdasted in comments re mah wallet cut piece
davout: pilot handbook 101: "if after landing you need to apply full throttle to get back to your parking spot, you probably forgot to lower the gear"
davout: yeah, i've heard some things like that too
davout: in these case it appears the cause is often confusion with the flaps lever
davout: after you land you retract flaps
davout: but obviously retracting gear isn't a good idea
davout: i have nfi why some airplanes allow this
davout: asciilifeform: they *are* very different
ben_vulpes: fuck levers, pressure on the wheels should engage hard interlock
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:04 asciilifeform: i have here a b00k on piloting circa 1940, and already then author insists that rudder pedals are obsolete and have killed a thousand men
davout: maybe i'll understand the answer to this mystery when i become retractable gear certified!
davout: well, you need rudder, how else are you going to, you know, pilot?
ben_vulpes: i have only recently developed an interest in ice flugen mobiles
trinque: anecdotally I seem to recall my dad talking about using rudder in crosswinds on large aircraft
davout: trinque: yeah, i have nfi how i'd land anything in a xwind without rudder
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: sailboats, motorbots, cars, bicycles mostly
trinque: right, not as if you can roll the aircraft when you're about to touch ground (intentionally!)
davout: asciilifeform: i'll research this ercoupe thing, seems interdasting
ben_vulpes: horses and women as opportunity presented
davout: trinque: actually you *are* supposed to
trinque: davout: in a not wings horizontally level manner?
davout: when landing in a crosswind you basically apply rudder during the approach so that your airplane flies towards the runway, but the nose pointing to the side
trinque: yeh, what I was fumbling for
ben_vulpes: note! this does not mean the wings are not horizontal
davout: and when you are about to touchdown, you apply rudder to align the nose with the runway
davout: but that causes the plane to drift
davout: you apply roll to counter the drift
trinque: yeah I thought that was called yaw
davout: if the wind comes from the right you'll end up landing with right wheel first, then left wheel, then nose wheel
davout: lemme check out how that's referred to in engrish
trinque: easiest example that comes to mind would be losing an engine on a multi-engine plane
davout: asciilifeform: propeller torque is one thing
davout: gyroscopic precession of the propeller when changing directions is yet another thing
davout: also trinque is right, when losing an engine on a multi-engine you need to apply rudder to compensate for the thrust differential
ben_vulpes: yeah see when they start talking like this my flugenboner starts to droop
davout: which is also why there's yet another minimum speed for a multi engine running on a single engine
ben_vulpes: trained response to risky dynamics problems
davout: below which the rudder loses sufficient authority to compensate for the asymmetric thrust
davout: ben_vulpes: piloting when you're actually in the plane is an entirely different thing
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i suspect that if i start to explore this risk manifold i will have trouble not ratcheting the risk back
davout: basically "watch your airspeed, watch the fucking airspeed"
davout: also "the ball goddammit"
davout: asciilifeform: point is piloting a small plane there's just a few things to pay attention to constantly
☟︎ ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it would be utterly nutso to consider an ode/fluids sim as a hashing function, right?
ben_vulpes: very similar inputs could, even over long runs, result in very similar outputs
ben_vulpes: i am no karman reincarnate with god's knowledge
ben_vulpes: why is 'fixed number of cpu cycles' a great thing?
ben_vulpes: wyrdmantis: again with the laptop messages
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:06 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's (and later again jurov's) utter failure to unravel the heap, at least, suggests this.